Excuse the nonsense characters. The preview showed the "bullet" character correctly but not so in the submitted post. Sorry.

FataMorgana

Another couple of categories, often ignored but nevertheless valid for inclusion, are:

Herbs which are used as poisons for the purpose of food-gathering: eg curare. Not poisonous as such, but certain acacia leaves can be thrown into water in a rock pool to deoxygenate the water, making it easier to catch fish. This method was traditionally used by Australian Aborigines, and similar uses of plants (herbs) are known to have been used by other peoples for hunting purposes.

Herbs which are psycho-active. Often used for recreational or traditional ritualistic/ceremonial purposes to change the brain's perception. The best-known of these are marijuana, coca. Most such herbs are illegal in most places.

Herbs which are used for structural purposes. The best-known and possibly the most widely-used is Bamboo, but you could also include any tree whose timber is used in house-building, furniture-making, musical instrument-making, weapon-making, boat-building etc. eg. Oak, redwood, pine, elder, sandalwood, yew, to name just a few.

Don't forget the importance of certain herbs which can be added to you 'craft' category - those used for basket-weaving, or roof-thatching, for instance. Perhaps the musical-instrument-making herbs can go into this category, along with those used to make sports equipment like cricket-bats. I'd be more inclined to put pyrethrum in amongst the 'pesticidal' herbs.

How about:

An herb is a plant that is grown and harvested for its useful properties. Culinary herbs are generally used as seasonings, not eaten in larger quantities as foodstuffs, and unlike spices are used either fresh or dried.

Herbs have a rich history and many uses, including:

* Used in the kitchen in preparation of food dishes

etc.

By the way, slightly off-topic, but is there a technical or feedback forum to report bugs like the fact that bullets and other special characters no longer display properly? This bug was introduced a couple of months ago in the GardenWeb software, and I don't know how to report it.

Thank you for the feedback! I tried to incorporate the suggestions into the FAQ.

As far as technical issues, there is a link for sending email regarding "technical problems" at the bottom of each forum page. Easy to miss and I must say it took me a while to find it.

FataMorgana

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What is an herb?

While the word "herb" is replete with a variety of definitions and common usages, for the purposes of the Herbs Forum an "herb" is defined as a plant that a is grown and harvested for its useful properties. Herbs have a rich history and many uses, including:
* Used in the kitchen in preparation of food dishes
Culinary herbs are generally used as seasonings, giving a dish color, flavor, and/or aroma and are not eaten in larger quantities as foodstuffs. Unlike spices are used either fresh or dried.
Culinary Herb Examples: garden sage, basil, parsley
* Used for the medicinal or healing effects it imparts
These "medicinal" herbs are many and varied for herbal traditions throughout the world each have their own "materia medica" which identifies the healing plants of that tradition.
Medicinal Herb Examples: Ginseng, echinacea, garden sage
* Used for the making of herbal teas
Even though many herbal teas have "medicinal" effects and could be considered with the medicinal herbs, this is a topic often distinct unto itself.
Tea Herb Examples: Lemon balm, lemon grass, chamomile
* Used for the dyeing and coloration of fabrics or other materials
Most botanical-based dyeing practices include not only the use of the plant material but various chemical mordants to not only set the color but to also achieve a varied palette of colors.
Dyeing Herb Examples: Onion skins, walnut hulls, woad
* Used for the making of fragrance
There are variety of processes used in making fragrances that include but are not limited to: potpourri, essential oils, incense, and perfumes.
Fragrance Herb Examples: Rose, myrrh, sandalwood
* Used for their psycho-active effects
These plants have been used for millennia in traditional rituals and ceremonies to change the brain's perception. As many of the plants in this category are now used "recreationally," they are illegal to grow, possess, sell, and/or process into a product that can be taken to induce a psycho-active effect. Laws vary by location.
Psycho-active Herb Examples: Coca, marijuana, peyote

* Used for various utility or craft purposes
These are uses not specifically covered by the other topics but these uses exemplify the creativity of human beings to find and fashion what they need to survive and thrive from the natural world around them. Some of the uses from this category include such things as insecticides (pyrethrum), poisons for the purpose of food-gathering (curare), structural materials (oak), and raw materials for crafting various items such as weapons, tools, musical instruments, etc. (bamboo).
Utility Herb Examples: Pyrethrum (insecticide), willow (basketry), flax (fiber)

OK, this might not be popular, but I really don't like phrases like "as a plant that a is grown and harvested for its useful properties." This starts to sound like everything in the garden. I grow & harvest tomatoes because of their useful properties (i.e. they're edible), but I wouldn't call them "herbs." Ditto apples, oak trees, (OK, I don't personally grow either!) and any of a number of other things.

I feel compelled when I offer a criticism like this to also offer an alternative, which I don't have at hand right now. I promise I'll try to work on this, including doing a bit of research into common definitions used elsewhere.

Here are some properties that, to me, definitely say "herb": Edible things that have a lot of "oomph" for their volume. Think medicinals, or seasonings for food.
Strongly scented things. Again, high "oomph" for volume.

As for dyeing and such...that's a great topic, but I just wouldn't call onion skins or walnut hulls "herbs." I really wouldn't.

As for the craft purposes...again, I'm not sure that I would class all of those things as "herbs."

So then I start thinking about things like willow. If I make a basket out of willow, I don't think that's an herb. If I have willow bark in my medicinal herb cabinet (which I do), is that an herb? Well, maybe if I'm pressed, I don't quite think it is, at least not in any botanical sense. I think that part of the tree is used in a way that medicinal herbs are used.

Think, for instance, of the classification of spices vs. herbs. Cinnamon is a spice, basil is an herb.

Again, I owe you all more research. I promise I will do my best. Right now I ought to get some actual work done during my work day, however!

Hi leira, I was trying to come up with an overall definition that encompasses what we mean by an herb, rather than just a disjointed list of categories.

I did say "generally used as seasonings, not eaten in larger quantities as foodstuffs" (to exclude fruits and veggies), "harvested" (to exclude shade trees and ornamentals), and "unlike spices are used either fresh or dried" (to include basil but exclude cinnamon or black pepper).

Herbs include some trees: curry leaf and bay leaf are herbs; but I don't think of willow as an herb, even if its bark has medicinal uses. On the other hand, willow is grown mostly as an ornamental and shade tree.

It's true, though, that some categories of useful plants are excluded, for example those that are used simply for their physical properties (such as basket reeds). I'd also leave out oak and bamboo.

We might spell it out:

Herbs are a group of plants that have been used since antiquity to season our food, cure illnesses, and add color and fragrance to our lives. An herb garden presents a feast of plant forms, often with subtle flowers and a distinctive, modest habit.

A theme that ties together the many kinds of plants that can be found in the herb garden is that they are grown and harvested primarily for their useful properties, as in the list below. By tradition, some categories of "useful" plants -- such as fruits, vegetables, ornamentals, and plants used for fuel or as structural materials -- aren't considered herbs. If you find a plant that adds unexpected charm to an activity in our daily lives -- flavoring food, coloring clothing, curing an illness, scenting the air -- with a potency that belies its modest form, chances are it's an herb.

The list below illustrates some of the many uses of an herb garden -- when you're not outdoors enjoying it! We hope it will inspire you as well.

* Used in the kitchen [etc.]

Oooh, nygardener, I like it. I think this is very much on track, and addresses most (if not all) of the concerns I had.

I will try not to use that as an excuse to avoid doing the research that I think would be good for both me and for the FAQ, however. :-)

I will try not to use that as an excuse to avoid doing the research that I think would be good for both me and for the FAQ, however. :-)

.. and which I was too lazy to do! ; )

Thank you for the feedback and suggestions!

Comments....

Food plants not herbs? There are many foods in your own kitchen that are herbs, some being quite powerful in their own right. Garlic, onion, lemon, oats, cranberry, and so many more. I picked one of the herb books out of my herb and gardening bookcase, Medicinal Plants of the World by van Wyk & Wink, and with flip through the first 80 entries or so, I counted about 20 plants used for food as well medicinal uses - I didn't count the ones used for culinary seasoning or as tea plants that were not also eaten as foods. Separating out food items does not work when speaking of herbs. Making other exclusions may or may not prove to be equally problematic with some research and thought.

Defining "herb" for this forum is hard - without a doubt 20 different people would give you 20 different definitions. I purposely tried to focus on what an herb might be rather than what it isn't without going too crazy on the details - being more inclusive than exclusive in our definition. In my opinion, the FAQ needs to embrace the fact that we do all have different "herb" definitions.

"Herbs" are our useful, powerful plants. We don't just plant them for their pretty color in the garden or to attract butterflies. We use them in so many ways. But regardless of however we define it, we all know that people on this forum will still talk mostly about culinary herbs. Even so, we do need a definition since it is keystone to any other FAQ creation.

FataMorgana

Good points, FataMorgana. We could replace:
By tradition, some categories of "useful" plants -- such as fruits, vegetables, ornamentals, and plants used for fuel or as structural materials -- aren't considered herbs.

with: By tradition, some categories of "useful" plants -- such as fruits, vegetables, ornamentals, and plants used for fuel or as structural materials -- aren't usually considered herbs. But herbalists and healers have found dual uses for many plants; cranberry and oat, for example, have powerful healing properties, while onion skins are often used as a natural vegetable dye.

I'm not sure there's much disagreement on what's an herb and what isn't; we're just trying to put it into words. So I think we should try to come up with a definition we can all agree on, rather than stating that there are many definitions.

Poor Fata - she's being inundated with suggestions and comments, and I suspect that in trying to please everybody, she'll end up pleasing nobody completely! But she seems to be doing a grand job, regardless.

I do agree with her that fruits, nuts and vegetables are herbs. Not only do they provide nutrition, they also provide health benefits beyond just 'filling the belly'. I could write forever about the assorted medicinal uses of things like tomatoes and potatoes and bananas, and nuts and many others as well. For those in doubt, it's worth researching.

Fata, what happened to the 'cosmetic' sub-section? Herbs are used not only in perfumery etc, but also to make shampoos (eg thyme, rosemary), hair conditioners (chamomile), lipsticks (alkanet), body paint (woad, henna).

We should include 'beauty' with the cosmetics - skin creams, lip balms and the like.

Those who cannot think of a tree as a herb should think of Bay, as a first step in the process. A mature Bay tree is HUGE. An Oak tree is also huge, and for those who doubt its application as a herb, I recommend doing some research on it.

As I've said in the introduction of one of my books:

A Herb can take a variety of forms. It may be a product of the sea (Bladderwrack), it may be a small ground-hugging plant (Thyme), or a large tree (Bay) or a fungus (mushroom). Or anything in between. We may use the leaves (lettuce, rosemary), the roots (carrots, marshmallow), the seeds (sesame, mustard), the fruit (apple, elderberry), the stems (rhubarb, angelica), the bark (cinnamon) or the flowers (roses, chives) of a plant.

As you can see, my definition of 'herb' is very broad indeed - probably because I've spent more than half a century researching and learning about them. Once you 'know a bit', you see plants (even those we call 'weeds') in a different light altogether.

Fata - I admire you for taking on this task. If there's such a to-do over the definition of 'herb', I don't envy you the task of coming up with a succinct description of all the individual herbs and their uses!! I know you what to get it 'just right' - but you've taken on many years of hard work, with no recompense - so make it easy on yourself, huh?

I am not in any way trying to denigrate fatamorgana's excellent and diligent work! Absolutely not. Thank you thank you, fatamorgana!

However, I just don't agree that some of these things listed are "herbs," even if they may be useful in all of the ways that herbs are useful.

If I'm talking about medicinal herbalism, for instance, I will happily include cranberries, oats, and all sorts of things " within the context of medicinal herbalism, specifically, I think "any plant with medicinal properties" is completely fair game. For perfumes, I would be foolish not to include roses, for instance. However, I see this particular forum as a gardening forum (there is a separate "Herbalism" forum, isn't there?), and as such, I would like to see the definition of "herbs" to come more from a botanical perspective.

This isn't the forum I go to if I want advice about fruits, or vegetables, or roses. You're right that I would (and have) come here for advice about bay trees, but I wouldn't come here for information on oak trees (though oak blossoms, for instance, have some very interesting uses). My argument might become a little shaky when we're talking about bay trees, but for the most part, I think it stands.

I would like my argument to be a little better than "I know an herb when I see it," however. I definitely owe you guys that.

I knew this would be a prickly one. When the topic of "what is an herb" has come up in the past, there has never been an agreement on what it is with regards to this forum.

Some say "herbs" are only culinary herbs. Others have a more broader definition. I personally fall into the wider definition category. For the forum definition I see us only having 2 options - a very restrictive definition (e.g. culinary herbs) or broader and more expansive definition. Perhaps it might help to see how the Herb Society of America defines an herb.

A couple more specific comments.....

1. We can not use a "botanical" definition of "herb." Botanically speaking, an herb is a non-woody plant. So no discussions about sage, rosemary, thyme, roses, or any other woody plant. To my knowledge there is no other "botanical perspective" of what an herb is.

2. Sorry, Daisy. Just forgot the "cosmetic" herbs. And I too find much value in Hippocrates' philosophy of food as medicine. I practice it often.

3. Overlap....yes. There is overlap between Herbs and other forums. That is the nature of gardening forums.

A rose, for example, could be talked about here or a variety of other forums including the rose forums, perennial, cottage gardens, edible, native plants (some), cutting garden and many others. It doesn't mean it is wrong or shouldn't be talked about in any of those. But a person wanting to know more specific details about growing roses or specific rose varieties may wish to visit one of the rose specific forums for the best information. There are experts on those topics there. But general rose discussions or specific discussions about which varieties produce the best hips for tea or even how to harvest those hips would be very well placed here.

I have some other general FAQ's in process but I'm looking to get one done before really starting another. One of those is about the difference between the Herbs and Herbalism forums. If it clarifies anything now, I'll share where that one is headed. The difference in the forums is in their focus. We focus on growing herbs of all sorts with some usage information in addition. The Herbalism forum is about medicinal herbs, specifically the usage of them, how to prepare them for use (tinctures, etc.), medical studies about their usage and efficacy, and educational resources to learn more about them and their usage. If cutting to the chase....it's growing versus using plus our area of subject matter is wider.

4. Oak? Herb. Willow? Herb. Trees as well? Sure enough, but that doesn't stop them from being herbs and topics for discussion here. The book Native American Ethnobotany by Moerman lists over 40 distinct oak species that were used by the Native Americans for all manner of uses from food to toys to basketry to medicine and more. Willow also has 40 or so listings with many varied uses. Will most people come here for info on oaks or willows? No. They'll probably head over to the Trees forum - it's a good forum too. But if they are looking for good varieties to grow for a particular herbal use or maybe questions about how to encourage willow to produce more branches for harvesting bark from, we're the forum for that and we should not discourage that discussion.

FataMorgana

Just as a political note, IMO, to keep the forum acceptable on this site, I think it would be better to categorize the psychoactive herbs in with the medicinal ones. Most psychoactive herbs, such as skullcap, are regarded as medicinal anyway. The few that aren't were origionally used as part of aborigional spiritual practices which could possibly often be construed as medicinal (in a broad sense) as well.

For what it's worth, I found this summary in "Practical Herb Garden" by Jessica Houdret.

"Herbs are a diverse and versatile body of plants, which have been appreciated through the centuries for their many uses. In the past they were the main source of raw materials for medicines, nutritional supplements and culinary flavourings as well as fulfilling a wide variety of household needs. They provided fragrance in the home, were added to bath and beauty preparations, used as dyes, cleaning agents, insect repellents and other similar products which we have become used to buying ready made."

While this is very similar to the other definitions, I thought it might be of some assistance :)

Fatamorgana- I think you're doing a wonderful job and I'm sure the FAQs will be very much appreciated, especially by people new to the forum.

As with any introduction, making it easy to understand for the novice can be the real challenge. Those with years of understanding and knowledge of herbs, can sometimes forget that many are coming here looking for a basic understanding...but may appreciate more detailed explanations in another FAQ...possibly one for each type of herbal use. Just a thought :)

It dawned on me a LONG time ago, that there were just as many definitions of 'herb' as there are herbs! Which is approximately 20,000. Perhaps we should simplify it, by saying that it's 'any plant or part thereof which has a use for mankind'. Then there's the task of explaining what 'use' means!!

Which, I suspect, is exactly where Fata is coming from. I'm happy to accept her broad view and her 'personal' definitions - she's the one doing the hard graft on this.

According to Deni Bown, author of The Herb Society of America Encyclopedia of Herbs & Their Uses an herb (either the French pronunciation of 'erb or the English pronunciation of herb with the hard H is correct) is:

The term herb also has more than one definition. Botanists describe an herb as a small, seed-bearing plant with fleshly, rather than woody, parts (from which we get the term herbaceous). In this book, it refers to a far wider range of plants. In addition to herbaceous perennials, herbs include trees, shrubs, annuals, vines, and more primitive plants, such as ferns, mosses, algae, lichens, and fungi. They are valued for their flavor, fragrance, medicinal and healthful qualities, economic and industrial uses, pesticidal properties, and coloring materials (dyes)."

Thanks everyone for all the feedback!

I don't have any time today to devote to this but maybe this next week.

FataMorgana