I'm really getting confused on the 'hardy' rosemary's.

I bought what was labeled 'hardy rosemary', which at the time I though was Arp.
I now have 'arp', is distinctly lighter more blue green than 'hardy rosemary'.
There is also a cultivar called 'Furneaux Hardy' which I don't have but was introduced by a local dallas nursury.
And then there is "Hill Hardy/Madeline Hill".

Are these all different cultivars? Does anyone have any insight into this confusion as to which is which and what is different about each?

MartieINCt, I love that yours are doing so well in CT. I was even worried about my new babies here in TX, I can rest a bit easier :). What trials are you referring to I would love to read about them.

Kristi

Kristi:

When used in common names, the word "hardy" is done more for marketing than plant description.

'Furneaux Hardy' is a perfect example. Reputable hardiness ratings put it at Z7. It would die in my Z6 garden but flourish in your Z8. If a reputable nursery sold the same plants in CT and TX, it probably wouldn't be labeled 'Furneaux Hardy' up here in the cold.

To figure out what you already have, literally take sprigs of the plant and start comparing them to pictures and descriptions. Learning the Latin is a blast and really helps in times like this.

When a plant is introduced the responsible arboretum, university, grower, etc. usually publishes something.

Martie

I grow both the Arp and Hill hardy rosemary year round with great success. A trip to Round Top to visit Festival Hill is a must-place to visit if you are interested in herbs and live in Texas.

The following is the information that I have on the Arp rosemary:

Heights eventually reach 36" to 48" and widths of 18" to 24".

"ARP" ROSEMARY, AN ALL-WEATHER HERB

Newcomers to the area may not be aware that Arp, a small town in Smith County, has lent its name to a particularly hardy strain of herbgarden favorite, rosemary.

Though northeast Texas generally has relatively mild winters, long-time residents recall a particularly harsh winter in the early 1980s. Temperatures fell to the single digits at night and did not rise above 32 degrees during the day for a period of more than a week. As a result, many plants were severely damaged or killed. However, in Arp, a stand of rosemary survived and flourished. Cuttings of these plants have been grown successfully in colder climates ever since. Although rosemary is considered a tender perennial in most plant books, 'Arp' (Rosmarinus officinalis) has proven winter hardy as far north as Washington, D.C.

Rosemaries are available as a prostrate cultivar suitable for hanging baskets; however, Arp Rosemary grows as an upright plant that has gray-green needle-like leaves. As the plant matures, the stems develop into woody limbs. Rosemary plants as small as four to six inches tall are readily available at local specialty nurseries. Just be sure to look for a label that says "Arp." The plant is a relatively slow grower; heights eventually reach 36" to 48" and widths of 18" to 24".

Although full sun is ideal, rosemary will tolerate up to a half day of shade. My rosemary plant is three years old, has already survived one transplanting, and is about 15" to 18" tall. Other than a light application of mulch, it has received no special attention and has proved pest and disease resistant and pleasing to grow. The rosemary fragrance is unmistakable, and the herb is useful for flavoring lamb, pork, or beef.

Susan Holloway, Smith County Master Gardener
Texas Extension Service

And from website National Gardening Association:

R. officinalis 'Arp' is the introduction of the distinguished plantswoman, garden author and herb afficionado, Madalene Hill of Roundtop, Texas. In 1987 she discovered an extremely hardy rosemary growing in the hamlet of Arp, in northeast Texas. She introduced it into the nursery trade via the National Herb Garden in Washington, D.C., where it was first grown. 'Arp', along with another of her cold-hardy rosemary discoveries, R. officinalis 'Hill Hardy', is one of the hardiest rosemaries, surviving the winter with protection to zone 6. 'Arp' grows from three to five feet tall, has light blue to almost white flowers and has thick, widely spaced, fragrant leaves grayer than (R. officinalis). It requires excellent drainage.

Being in New Hampshire (low temp last winter -16F/-27C), my regular rosemary and Gorizia rosemary do/did not survive in the ground. Hence, my regular use of pots. This year as an experiment I planted both Arp and Madeline Hill in a protected nook on the south side of my house. They get full sun all day, it is relatively dry, snow melts early, and they are protected from the north and west winds by the bulkhead doors. I am prepared for the worst, since even this protected spot is pretty extreme for rosemary, but we shall see what the spring brings.

OH, OK. I get it. I didn't realize that 'hardy' was a selling point, I thought they were all cultivars. That makes more sense now. Thanks martie.

lt, That's great info, I love that link to FestivalHill. That looks like a great place to visit. We are definately going to plan some trips around TX, I had no idea that place existed how fun, what a fascinating place to visit, that will be a great trip.

Thanks so much,

narcnh, good luck sounds like the safest spot possible in NH. Maybe if they survive and set seed you might be able to select for cold hardiness, that would be really cool. Though there is that horid germ rate..well there's always a chance:)

If you find a Rosemary you like and want to continue its true lineage, the best best is taking cuttings. Seeds of hybrids, if seeds are produced at all, have a tendancy to "not come true."

Though probably prohibited, I've taken cuttings of my "M.H." (where's the plant police????) and will try and do a short border of Rosemary next year. Fifteen years ago, to try that in Z6 would have been unheard of. Gotta love the science.

It sounds as if narcnh has found a great microclimate to give it an overwintering shot. In the Spring, we can compare notes!!

Martie

I'll be happy to compare notes and even try some cuttings, if either plant makes it. Last yeat I tried Gorizia rosemary in the same spot, but it didn't make it. Since there are no claims of extreme winter-hardiness for that variety that I've seen, I wasn't surprised. Both of these plants had most of the summer to get established, so their shots at survival are about as good as it gets.

I love it when they say something's hardy because it survives a winter when it doesn't get above freezing for days on end. Ah yes! And what happens when it doesn't get above zero (F) for days on end?
That's why 'hardy' doesn't really mean all that much on its own. Better to go by zone numbers for named varieties than depend on a nurseryman saying a plant is 'hardy.'

I live on the coast at the most southern tip of Rhode Island (Watch Hill). In our 2004 growing season, my wife and I bought two nursery plants (sprigs) simply labeled "Rosemary".

We transplanted each into 15" containers. As expected, they grew slow that season. We brought one plant indoors to be wintered over in our foyer. The other plant was left outdoors for the winter sheltered in our polycarbonate hobby greenhouse. The daily temps. in the greenhouse averaged between 35-48°F during the coldest days of winter where the nightly temps. would drop as low as -8°F.

Soil in both containers were kept equally moist. The plant in our foyer received low indirect/diffused light for only a few hours a day, where the plant in the greenhouse received full sun (on sunny days) for a longer duration.

During the winter months, the plant indoors showed signs of slow growth (very sparse and leggy). The plant outdoors started off showing signs of growth but slowly diminished to a dormant like state.

When Spring temps. arrived we under-went the normal hardening off cycle w/ each plant.
Sadly to say the plant wintered over outdoors did not come back to life but the plant over wintered indoors did and became a 15" x 15" beautiful specimen. I know what route we will take this year.

{{gwi:669146}}
Our Arp rosemarys have overwintered for several winters and continue growing. Here is one of them in the lower left corner of photo. Plants above in photo are agastache rupestris in bloom. EP

EP,
That is just beautiful. I wonder if somehow the coloring is linked to cold hardiness. It might be coincidental but ARP is distinctly lighter than other rosemary's I have seen.

This is going to be long and I apologize. I am attempting to respond to most of the previous posts all at once to make it more concise.

The correct name for the plant is Hill Hardy Rosemary Rosmarinus officinalis 'Madeline Hill'. It was named in honor of Madeline Hill by my father Tom DeBaggio in the late 1980's not by her. In the plant world it is extremely bad form to name something after yourself. And yes it is different than Arp which was introduced by Madeline after the town of Arp, Texas. The word hardy was used to identify it as a hardier form of rosemary and is part of the name. (most varieties are hardy to 15ºF or 20ºF in a well drained spot in the ground-although a few are barely hardy below freezing) . Therefore hardy should not be removed by reputable nurseries no matter what part of the country it is sold as seems to have been suggested. This would only cause further confusion, and believe me it is confusing, in the nomenclature.
It is not patented. Even patented plants can be propagated for person use. There are no patent police for garden plants (although Monsanto does have their own "police" to enforce their patents with farmers-and they use them often). Most varieties of herbs introduced over the last century or more were chance sports or differences noticed by talented, passionate and devoted plantspeople who then named, propagated and shared/sold the variety. It is true that most introductions should have a description published in a catalog of some sort. Plantspeople are often not botanists and therfore do not have the techinical training to describe the introduction with the degree of botanical accuracy necessary to identify a plant in the field. Often only a general description of a particular virtue of the plant is offered. This is certainly true in this case. It is also part of the reason there is so much confusion amongst lavendar cultivars such as 'Hidcote' and 'Munstead'-there are no herbaria specimens and the descriptions published when they were introduced in the early 1900's were not done by botanists.

Since all Rosemary in the U.S. is of one species, Rosmarinus officinalis, there are no hybrids between species. There are at least two or three other species and /or sub species, depending on the taxonomist, but they exist in nature in only a very small geographic area and have never made it into cultivation. Most taxonomists have never seen a living specimen. Much of the variation found in cultivation today is by chance or from seedlings. Rosemary does not come true from seed reliably. There are couple of cultivars that are known to have come from chance crosses between cultivars and as far as I know they produce viable seed.

Learning the latin names of plants is extremely important in being able to converse amongst each other to be sure you are talking about the same plant. And yes it is fun too. But with rosemary it is of little help (all the same latin name). The diffences between plants are often so slight that they barely warrant a separate cultivar name, even though there are nearly 100 named cultivars out there (how many are dupicates with the same name-who knows but I have talked to growers who simply rename because they lost the original name).

By the way my father also introduced the aforementioned 'Gorizia' along with several other varieties.

Francesco DeBaggio

francesod:

Thank You So Much!! From such a reliable source, the straight record is much appreciated.

Particular thanks for the information on use of the word "hardy" in this particular plant name. From here on out I will use it in this light. But -- when it is obviously used as a selling point; ie., "hardy" Crape Myrtle, "hardy" Musa, etc., it is confusing to the unknowing.

Again, thanks Mrs. Hill for being important enough in the plant world to be a deserved recipient of a plant name. And thank you DeBaggio Family for your work to make our worlds so diverse in Rosemary land!

Martie