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McFadden hybrids...

Posted by poultryguy (My Page) on
Mon, Jul 9, 07 at 10:49

Hello everyone,
I picked up an interesting intergenus hybrid yesterday and would like to find more. The one I bought was H. paramutabilis x H. syriacus and is a triploid. I'm looking for one of the ones McFadden has created and that are suppose to hit the commercial market soon. Are any of the H. rosa-sinensis x H. paramutabilis available yet?

Aside from the many H. moscheutos group of hybrids, are there any other intergenus hybrids that are available to the public?

Regards,
Dan


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: McFadden hybrids...

I have both of the original above described hybrids- The white one and the pinkish purple clone. Both are vigorous. The purple one suckers like crazy up to 6 feet away from the trunk! The white one is, to my senses, the better performer of the original two clones of this hybrid. I had a yellow leaved seedling from one of them, but i ewventually trashed it when it proved to be useless. I will attempt to cross Hibiscus cubensis ( Native to the New World Tropics and south Texas) with Lord Baltimore to see what I get. My Cuban Hibiscus is very vigorous, and curiously thorny like a rose! I am also interested in exotic hybrids, so I'll be checking this forum tomorrow!


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RE: McFadden hybrids...

Hello Palmfan,
Odd, I had written a reply yesterday but it looks like it didn't process.

It's interesting that you were able to get a viable seedling from the F1 paramutabilis clones. Was this from an intended pollenation? Which was the pollen parent and which was the seed parent? For what I'm using the moscheuto group for, the suckering you mentioned with the paramutabilis x's would be perfect. At the moment I have Kopper King, Lord Baltimore, Plum Crazy and a bunch of seedling plants covering about 40' of run-off ditch. Some day I'll have the entire 500' ditch planted in hibiscus, which is why I'm so interested in hybrids and species I can cross. There's plenty of room for experimenting, lol.

Are you aware of anyone who has successfully cross pollenated H. cubensis with other species? What kind of results did they get?

Regards,
Dan


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RE: McFadden hybrids...

Dan,
I think that the seedling was just from a pod which has a seed or two in it, and not from an intended cross. I will be crossing the Cuban Hibiscus with lord Baltimore to see if I get an interesting hybrid. I will also cross lord Baltimore with Hibiscus dasycalyx, a federally endangered species from southeast Texas.
I am fascinated with the Cuban Hibiscus due ti its curious habit of going to sleep in the evening by pointing its leaf tips to the ground at a 90 degree angle.
I have thus far been unable to circumvent Hibiscus mutabilis 'rubrus's sterility. I weonder why it is so sterile. Heard it might be a mutabilis/moscheutos hybrid, but who knows? I DID once have a Snyder hybrid of mutabilis and moscheutos. It was a weedy, coarse plant that was NOT a "keeper".
Another interesting hibiscus is one I got from Plant Delights in North Carolina. I think it is named 'Davis Creek'. To me, it looks like it could be a coccineus/dasycalyx hybrid. It looks quite tropical when it blooms! It is an exquisite shade of pink! Stay in touch!
Palmfan


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RE: McFadden hybrids...

For cryin out loud... you toss out more hybrids than I've seen! Lol. ;)

Seriously though, is there any particular reason why you haven't used those hybrids as a "first step" toward creating more useful, subsequent hybrids? I would think that breeding the F1's back to either parent, or amongst themselves, would produce more refined specimens with a greater purpose in the garden. I've seen some pretty raggedy F1's in my life but most of those crosses proved quite usefull in creating subsequent generations simply because they're the vehicle that transports new genes into an intended breeding program.

Most of my genetics experience is with poultry, with which, I've developed most of my plant breeding strategies. I've found that quite often, you only need to do a species cross once, then breed the sibling generations to eachother in order to bring out gene combinations that really stand out. My friend and I have been working with Gray Jungle fowl/ domestic chicken crosses. We're at the 4th generation of sibling-matings. There have been more than a dozen stable genes for color and pattern that were totally unknown to the chicken genome prior to this cross. Next year we're mating a few select later generation birds back to a domestic line to see if we can stabilize some of these new genes and get back more of the domestic traits like behavior and production. At any rate, I would think that an F1 x F1 would produce some segregation of positive traits from those hybrid hibuscus that you've been throwing out. Quite a few of those "new genes" that we look for are recessive in crosses to plants we're familiar with, so they won't even show up in the first cross.

As for H. mutabilis rubra, I discussed their situation with a coworker some years ago. He never mentioned it being an interspecies cross, although he did state that it was pollen sterile. If you use 'rubra' as the pod parent you should get viable seed from them. It could just be a ploidy issue.

Do you know where I may be able to get some of the Snyder hybrids? I was wondering whether that combination would work out. Since somebody else has already created it, there's no point in reinventing the wheel, lol. I would like to add it to my collection for further hybridizing experiments. Breaking down species barriers seems to be easier when you use species hybrids and long time domesticates.

I couldn't find any decent photos of cubensis but it does have some interesting qualities, save the spines that is. I'm really more interested at this point in time in getting those interesting flower shapes introduced in to the more hardy hibiscus, as well as some of the more tropical color schemes. The "old yeller" moscheutos hybrid is interesting but way too drab. It wouldn't even show up as noticable in my landscape. Bright yellows, true reds, maybe even blue and the multi-colored hues that the tropical hibiscus have would be real nice additions to the hardy hibiscus venue.

Regards,
Dan


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RE: McFadden hybrids...

Hi Dan!
Sorry! I didn't know much about genetics when I tossed the moscheutos/mutabilis cross. As for the hybrid seedling, it simply failed to thrive. It was yellow and sickly. I suspect it was a bit too deficient in chlorophyll.
The source for my interspecific hybrids was originally Glasshouse Works for the Snyder hybrid, and Winterthur Gardens for the syriacus/paramutabilis white/red eye clone. My purple flowered clone was obtained from Home Depot as a mislabeled tropical hibiscus. Glasshouse Works carries both clones as of the last time I checked. Both are capable of suckering, although the purple/pink clone seems to sucker very profusely. I obtained Hibiscus cubensis from Woodlanders of South Carolina. They rate it to zone 7.
I have tried a variety of pollen on H. mutabilis 'rubrus' with no success. The seed pods always seem to abort before maturing. I wonder if anyone has succeeded in getting seed from this variety. No other hibiscus blooms over such a long season as this variety, although the syriacus/paramutabilis clones try to come close some years. Stay in touch!
Jim (Palmfan)


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RE: McFadden hybrids...

Hello Jim,
I miss my H. mutabilis and H.m. rubra. We grew a ton of them when we lived in California, as a hedge. I was going to have my mother send me a bunch of cuttings from the plants I brought to her place a while back but with the oak wilt fungus issues, I didn't want to place our local native oaks at risk. I was able to get seed from rubra when pollenated late in the season with H. mutabilis spp. as the pollen parent. I did take about 500 H. syriacus seeds with me though, the mother plant reproduces true from seed very reliably. Should make for a good background breeding group.

The 'Lohengrin' (paramutabilis x syriacus) hybrid I got is white w/a red eye. The label states that it's suppose to be dark green leaved, yet the plant looks like a sickly yellow/green. I'm hoping that it just didn't like the pesticide treatment that it probably received before being shipped. It's been in the ground for about a week now and is showing some signs of greening up. I planted it close to the hibiscus that I'll be attempting to cross it with later on.

Most of my moscheutos group are 25 yards away and I only allow them to set seeds from intentional crosses. Keeps the guess work down, lol.

I want that purple/pink paramutabilis x clone! It can sucker all it wants, I've got the space, lol. Thanks for the list of sources. I checked out Georgia Bost's website and found several of her hybrids that I'd like to add to my collection for breeding. There are several of the Fleming Bros selections that I'd still like to get as well. These folks have done so much ground work and put so much of themselves in to getting these hibiscus plants bred to the level they're at it would be a shame not to attempt taking the breeding to the next level. McFadden's "bridge" crosses will hopefully help to make that all possible.

Take care,
Dan


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RE: McFadden hybrids...

Dan,
Contact me directly and I may be able to help you!
Palmfan


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RE: McFadden hybrids...

Email sent Jim...

Dan


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RE: McFadden hybrids...

Sorry, Dan! I didn't get it! My computer may have blocked you, or something. I thought it was only blocking real estate info for my twin brother (unless it was first sent to Samoa, then forwarded on to my computer. Weird!)
Otherwise, I could send you cuttings of both varieties to you, even rooted ones, in all likelihood! I think it is neat that you got seed from 'Rubra' (also listed in the trade as 'Rubrus'. Stay in touch!
Palmfan ( Jim )


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RE: McFadden hybrids...

Hello Jim,
Thank you for the offer. I'll be purchasing Tosca (purple/pink clone) from Woodlanders in a few weeks if they've still got it available. I already have Lohengrin (white w/red eye) in the ground. Woodlander's list is pretty long, so I'll probably pick up several other species while I'm shopping. In all likelyhood I won't be able to do much in the way of crosses for a few years until the plants are established. Which is fine... Even if none of the crosses work out I'll still have beautiful hibiscus to look at and enjoy.

It's funny, the biggest problems we had in CA with the mutabilis were bud-worms. They consumed the flower buds before they could open and quite often you'd find them inside the seed pods to. On the moscheutos, the bud worms made more than half the buds drop before they could open if you didn't spray the plants from bud set thru bloom. Here in MO we haven't had a single issue with budworms on any of our hibiscus (or geraniums for that matter), but the leaf eating insects turn the leaves in to swiss cheese if you're not watching out for them.

If you happen to have any seed available for the cubensis this year I would definitely be interested. We're in zone 5b according to the "old map", or zone 6 if you go by the new one. If I could get cubensis to bloom from seed started during winter then planted out in May, I'd like to try a few crosses with my moscheutos varieties to see what happens. I like the face-forward, overlapping petals of it as well as the color.

I'm glad to have met you Jim, it's been fun discussing hibiscus with you. I'll try sending you another email sometime tomorrow. It will have "poultryguy" in the email address... perhaps your email blocker will let it through this time.

Take care,
Dan


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RE: McFadden hybrids...

Dear Dan,
I'll be glad to share some cubensis seed with you, if I get any, which I expect, and if we can contact each other privately since we can't post our addresses on line for everyone to see. I think I had tried to contact you by email, but was not given a chance to do so when I got to your member page.
As for 'Tosca' and 'Lohengrin', they will likely bloom for you in their first season if you get them this fall. All my stuff from Woodlanders has bloomed, or is going to, shortly! I have a white Hibiscus coccineus from them which is now in bud! My cubensis hibiscus is a large plant with a fat stem It is blooming daily, and has side branches which are also budding! It seems to need more heat than moscheutos and mutabilis to open, thus tends to open later in the morning than other varieties. My mutabilis 'plena' was brought directly from Samoa as a tiny cutting. It blooms in October.
Jim


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RE: McFadden hybrids...

Hi Jim,
I sure hope the paramutabilis x's produce flowers this year... that would be awesome.

I just changed my settings so that members can access my email addy. I tried to send you another email this morning but it appears that it didn't get to you.

Just curious but have you noticed any insects going after your H. cubensis so far?

Dan


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