It would be good to standardize a form for a budget of a homestead. That way they would be comparable. I have one in a Word document. Is that attachable here? It is three pages. -- Marie

Composts, If you define the "good life" as a new $30,000 car then you won't find it homesteading. I don't know what type of magazine "Men" is but if it presented things as idealic and dreamy cancel your subscription. IMHO, many people confuse pleasure with happiness in their lives. Homesteading requires LOTS of work, many unpleasent tasks, but when added together they equal happiness. I think that if you just chase pleasure, you end up empty. For many families a 10K net is plenty to live on. It just depends on your definition of living. Tom

My opinion would be that perceptions of the good life differ among people. To one family, dreamy and idealic are the success of their hard work, while on another hand, someone making 6 figures still isn't happy with their life 'worth'. Homesteaders are very frugal people and $10,000 goes a longgggggg way when you plan to use it wisely. No longer is it necessary to buy clothes from malls at outrageous prices or eat at fast-food places loaded with fat and fake food. If homesteaders barter to the max, essentially you can get almost all of your basic necessities without paying anything, or very little.
I don't consider myself a real homesteader but as an example, I made an entire business suit wardrobe (lined jackets)of 5 sets completely free on my sewing machine. I traded things I had grown/made/raised for quality fabric and I got the pattern for almost free: ten cents. Not only did they look great but people asked me where I bought the suits! This one example has saved me at least $800.00 or more. I can only imagine how resourceful people can be when they want to be-a sure lesson in homestead economics :)

Yes, my first thought was ... the new vehicle. If one keeps older vehicles running, one doesn't need the big money. Our sustainable lifestyle include several '60s and 70's pickups/cars for different purposes, all bought at junk yards and donation stations. My hubby is wonderful with engines. Admittedly, we sometimes feel a bit riled because we notice people judging us as "lesser than them" because we are not driving something shiny, but console ourselves with the thought that, unlike us, these same people probably do not own their home outright, have zero debt, and they probably also work at jobs they hate.
Like Dicentra, I love thrift stores. When I discovered Goodwill as an immigrant with almost no money, I was overjoyed. It is amazing what good quality items (like grain mills, fruit peelers, dehydrators) pop up if you are PATIENT. Also lots of fabric and yarn. I think most of you will agree that instant gratification and sustainable living are mutually exclusive. Yes, that $10k can go a very long way in a frugal lifestyle.

Tom:

MEN is the venerable Mother Earth News. Sorry, I assumed the acronym was well known.

As for the $30,000 car have you priced F150's or Chevy 1500's lately? With this 0% financing I have been looking and falling over with sticker shock. These were the basic trucks with the engine big enough to haul my tractor. (aroung $25,000 to $27,000)

Health care???? or as a homesteader are you rolling the dice?

Also when I price fabric I find $3.00 and up a yard.

Don't get me wrong. I am really really interested in this topic. It is just that I cannot make the numbers work out. Am I am interesten in just how little it really takes to live on.

Example:
Electric $120
Telephone $40 (25 basic service and 15 LD)
Property Taxes: $140
Car Incsurance: $100
Morgage: $800
I-net provider:$30 - a luxury we all have here (I assume)

Total here($1230.00/month) $14,760 a year or 1/3 over.

What is not included: The portion you return to God for his gifts to you, Food, clothing, medical, gasoline, car/farm equipt. repair, Feed for animals, medical care for animals, school supplies, soap and tolitries, Cable/Dish TV if you have any of these.

Please give me insite on how to do it. For I am bline and cannot see.

Thanks

You have to live on lack of expense. Reuse, repair and settle for less. You have to be a plumber, mechanic, carpenter, forest manager and farmer. If something needs to be fixed, you fix it. Raise most of your own food, sell what ever you can, trade for what ever you can, buy used second hand everything, drive a truck that is at least over 10 years old. If you cannot pay for it with money in your pocket or trade for it, do with out. No credit debt, no mortgage.

The tough part is quality health care and property taxes. You may be standing still but the world is still zooming by!

Composts, Being blind is sometimes helpful. If I could have looked ahead and seen how difficult the process would be at times I don't know if I would have jumped in. Just glad I did. As others have said you have to cut expenses, and use cash not credit, and take advantage of bartering. Many of us saved up for the cost of the land and utilities. Then moved on in whatever shelter seemed appropriate and available. We're in a 5th wheeler travel trailer and after 5 years in that we hope to start building our house next year. Here's what we found in regards to the expenses you noted. Our kids are grown and on their own.

Electric - use less; electric and propane here run $70

Telephone - like yours, email keeps that LD down

Property Tax - enroll your property in the open space program and you will be taxed at a low rate. Also take advantage of low income disabled or senior tax reductions. For the 5 acres here, 2 homesites, one home, taxes run about $400/yr. Youc could buy land in a region with few services and very low taxes

Car Insurance - have a less expnsive vehicle, have just liability insurance

Mortgage - just my advice, remember no kids here, sell everything you can to get your land and utilities free and clear

I-Net - $20/month here and I consider it essential for email

Food - work towards growing your own. We haven't bought vegies or meat in 2 years. Thinking about a dairy goat after the house is up.

Portion to God for His Gifts - food to the food bank

Animals - animal enterprises can pay for themselves and earn a nice profit. I'd start with chickens and rabbits which are fairly easy to raise, sell quickly, and don't involve vet bills. If one gets real sick, cull it.

Repairs - I was one who always brought things to a shop for maintenance and repair. Bit by bit I've learned to do all the maintenance and some of the repair myself. And I am mechanically challanged.

Cable/Dish TV - why?

Clothes - we buy sturdy work clothes on sale every 2 years and repair them inbetween. Two sets of "dress clothes" last forever. Trades, giveaways, and thrift shops fill in the difference. Having kids would make this a tough one though.

Health Care - in WA there is the Basic Health Program for what I call the working poor. It's Cadillac health care at prices that are prorated to you income up to a certain limit. Every state has health care programs for low income kids.

10K net would cover this nicely, with maybe a trip to Mexico every few years. Remember with those folks in MEN having 10K net, all their animal costs, and equipment repairs, farm taxes, etc. have been paid for and they still had that $10,000 left. If you didn't have that $800/month mortgage payment the annual costs you listed would be $5160. Beyond that, if you don't have the money for something then don't get it. The JR Hudson Seed catalog has a saying on the cover: If you don't need it, don't buy it. Wish I would have read that when I was young. Anyhow, that's how it works for us, which may have absolutely no bearing on how it could work for you. But like many others here, we are making it work. Tom

Have really enjoyed reading this thread. Hope it continues.

Hi, I think you have raised some very good questions, and I have seen some good advice given. I believe that it truly is a lifestyle. WE all romantacize Little House On the Prairie, but those people worked very hard from sun up to sundown, and their world was their family, not "keeping up with the Jones's". I am very interested in the homesteading lifestyle, and subscribe to "Countryside" magazine, it is truly wonderful. I definitely reccommend it. It gives balanced info from real life people! There are pros and cons to everything in life, some things I can't wait to jump into, other things I find a chore or am completely not interested in. I am not really enthusiastic about butchering our own meat, but even if we paid to have it done, we would know where the meat came from, and control what that animal was fed. You can do it your way, you don't have to go "off the grid" to be a true homesteader! I would definitely talk to your spouse and make sure family is on board with this lifestyle change and read and save as much as you can before you do it! Good luck!

Just to add an angle...Composts brings up some valid points about "necessary-living" payments. I think it also depends on where you live, along with the frugal lifestyle. Example:
Where I live now:
$1500.00 month mortgage for 1/2 acre home
$2400.00 yearly property taxes
$800.00 minimal liability car insurance (which I wouldn't recommend if you own a home)
$40.00 monthly customer service charge GAS, even if you use no gas
$35.00 ditto monthly for electric
$35.00 ditto for monthly water with no usage
$65.00 minimal monthly cable here (we don't have cable)
...I could go on. The point is that location can make the difference between a comfortable homestead lifestyle on $10,000 and being broke in the blink of an eye.

Money is always going to be an issue of some sorts, and I think we all agree that you must have some sort of outside income to manage. I feel very fortunate where we live as the cost of living is very low compared to the rest of Canada and most of the US

$586/mo morgage, PIT
$165/mo utilities, gas water electric and waste removal.
$35/mo phone
$75/mo cable and net
$840/year car and house insurance
$420/year health care insurance

Car is 14 years old and runs well, have an awesome mechanic.
Costs apprx $300 year for maintainence.
Groceries cost about $150 at the market each month, try and raise the rest myself. Side of pork $120 year, side of beef $300 year, chickens $80 year.

Fuel for the car is the big crunch, so we walk as much as possible and plan our excursions to best advantage.

Clothing and shoes $500 year for three.
Cost of maintaining the yard, $400 year. This the biggest area I need to work on in terms of expense, but it is also my biggest pleasure.

$10,000 may be a little difficult to maintain as a goal, but $15,000 isn't for me. Darn good thing as I only gross $21,000 a year in income. Funny thing is, we live as well, if not better than most people I know.

Rose

I think that most here have shown that you can live on less and still enjoy life. Location is definitely the biggie as well as having your place clear and free. My S.O. does lot's of trades as he has a small auto body shop. That's how we got gravel for our 500' driveway, raised septic system, half acre catfish pond, front and back porches, and our most recent, fencing and large stones for a cactus garden we are builidng. Barter is alive and well so use it if you have a service or trade to barter with. B.

I don't think composts read the article very closely. Their house and land are paid for,(they built the house themselves) and they get a lot of their energy needs from solar power. Also the article says their income is $35,000. Here is an excerpt:

Their 1,350-square-foot home gathers two-thirds of its heat from sunlight. Electricity generated by six photovoltaic panels (each rated at 110 watts) is stored in 12 golf-cart batteries to power (in responsible usage patterns) the energy-efficient refrigerator, two computers, a VCR and a grain grinder. Compact fluorescent lightbulbs lend their light to cloudy or winter afternoons....

Drinking water is collected off a large shed roof north of the house. The metal roof directs the water to two 3,000-gallon, in-ground, concrete cisterns on the west side of the shed. For every inch of rain that falls, the cisterns collect around 1,000 gallons of water. The water is sent through a silver-impregnated charcoal filter, pumped clear and fresh with power supplied by Alice or David and a converted exercise bike. A few minutes of pedaling each morning provide enough water for the day. Alice and David set up the system to provide much more water than they use, even for laundry.

Water heating in their home is a true fusion of cultures: Cold water circulates to a Bosnian-made cookstove. The fire heats the water, which then flows into the next room where an Amish-style heat-exchanger keeps the water warm. Hot water from the stove rises, circulates, then sinks back down as it cools, only to be heated again. The water can stay hot for about 36 hours between fires.

The house and land used up most of Alice and David's savings, but in the end, they were left with a $35,000-a-year business, no mortgage, only a telephone bill and a small income from renting their Denver home."

Want to restart the discussion?

Yes.

If you do read the article closely you will see that the $35,000 is a gross income. After the costs of the business the part left is $10,000 on which the must cover their household expences, insurances and personal expences.

Well, you can make a little go a long way if you go to yard sales! We fill up our van just about every week with "wonderful stuff" and spend very little. There's usually at least one good "find" each week to sell on eBay to pay for the whole expedition as well as make a profit.

You can also get a lot of good stuff just by shamelessly asking for it. Today, my husband got a 28 foot lamp post (only slightly damaged) just by asking for it. He's been looking for one for awhile to mount a wind generator on.

As for cars, we don't pay more than $500 for them. We have a Honda Civic - free, needed a head gasket- and a Toyota Van - free is actually a motor from one van and the body of another. There's a 4WD Jeep for $300 that my husband got last week, I dunno why, really, we don't need it, but now we will be able to go fish at more places with the 4WD.

Food falls out of the trees around here, avocados, bananas, papayas, etc. The chickens peck around the yard and give us eggs. There's vegetables and my neighbor trades us beef for bamboo shoots. (We have a tasty variety of bamboo in our backyard and he slaughters a beef every year so HE thinks it's a good trade!) A swarm of bees moved in several months ago, so maybe there will be honey from the yard soon as well.

We have a small house that was sold as a "tear-down" so we are one year into a five year renovation. We do all the work ourselves and buy the building supplies as we need them so since we don't work all that hard, we don't spend all that much at one time.

The electricity is solar and runs the lights, washer, computer, TV, power tools, etc. etc.

Monthly expenses?
$ 250.00 mortgage
$ 20.00 county water
$ 15.00 road dues (we live in a rural subdivision)
$ 25.00 telephone
$ 35.00 cellphone (free weekend long distance minutes!)
$ 55.00 cable modem connection (wonderful thing!)
$ 30.00 propane (refridgerator, stove, water heater)
$ 150.00 groceries
$ 100.00 gasoline
(no heating bills, we live in Hawaii - somebody's gotta live here!)

Annual expenses
$ 110.00 land tax (we get homeowner's + ag exemption for the coffee trees)
$ 800.00 car insurance (old cars are cheaper!)

My husband teaches at the local high school, so our lifestyle is more than paid for with one income. That also covers our health insurance, which is why at least one of us has a traditional job. I stay busy with the house renovation, growing plants to sell, drafting (blueprints & house designs), building concrete walls, the stock market, beekeeping, web design, etc. etc.

It's not traditional "homesteading" but it is rural and has a lot of the same mindsets and values. Plus it's tons of fun!

Aloha!

Yes, certainly "homesteading" is at it's easest with the aid of stock market investments, a climate with no winter, and an economy with strong outside in-puts.

I also live on an island where things like used cars and appliances build to give-away levels. However, most folks homestead in thinly settled and remote areas where land is cheap but most any manufactured item has some cash value.

Also, it seems that people often go into it with few or no resources and hoping that ag production will somehow pay for a mortgage, taxes, and purchases of manufactured products and other items not producible at home. The result such cases can only be poverty or failure, IMO.

It seems to me that one must own the place free and clear, and have enough outside income to pay for non-producible items. I would never want my labor to have to produce more than my own food, heat, building material and perhaps property taxes depending on the local market.

I'd like to restart this thread. I read every day about soaring health care costs. If we stay healthy I suppose I can deal with homesteading on $10,000 income...BUT...and you know where I'm going. What happens with health issues when they come...and they do come eventually? Meds or hospital stays can be catastrophic. I admire people that want to be self sufficient but shouldn't that also include paying their share rather than having the county, state or charities pay it?

Also, children need to be protected and cared for and I wonder about the propriety of having others assume those costs. I recently had surgery on my foot but it did require a hospital stay of one day...it cost $3400 once all the bills came in. I called and complained and was told that I was also covering the charity cases the hospital was required to cover. Somehow it doesn't seem right. Honestly I think I can make more justification for charity in the case of people that are mentally challenged or totally unable to cope with making a living but I can't for people that want "the good life" while hoping they'll never need to fce health care costs for their children or themselves.

Once again...I admire self sufficiency and homesteaders. I find the topic fascinating and spiritually cleansing...BUT...!!!!

I'd appreciate thoughts about this point.

It seems to me that the "good life" doesn't necessarily mean that you have to be a full-time subsistence homesteader. A balance can be struck between security and freedom. And, you can build slowly towards greater independence, learning skills and making capital improvements along the way. Your reliance on the conventional economy can diminish incrementally. Buy a rooster and five hens. Within a few weeks, you'll never buy eggs again from the store. Within a few months, you'll never buy chicken meat again. And so on. My advice for most people would be to buy rural land on the outskirts of an urban area. Reap the financial rewards of working in an urban area. Shift the money you earn to paying off and improving the land. After a few years, in the best case, you are ready for a bigger time commitment to your land. In the interim, take the opportunity to learn the lessons the land will teach you.

I agree with goatman that an expensive new car can't be used as the indicator of "the good life" lived on the land, as a homesteader. The real key for any kind of a decent life on a homestead has always been money management, in which budgeting is obviously the principle.

By the way, there is a good discussion on the GW Permaculture forum that might interest you. It's about the leap from vision to reality (it's about homesteading, and uses the "permaculture" concepts of homestead inter=gration as the point of departure for the discussion. Just go to that forum, go to the bottom, and plug in the search terms "permaculture" "design" and "finances" - you'll find the discussion that way.

Also, you might find it worth it to read the article on the Wikipedia for which I'm providing a hotlink, below.

Best of luck...

Joel

Here is a link that might be useful: Helen & Scott Nearing