Great Pyrenees can be great dogs but they are very protective.They can also be aggressive to people, things outside their family.If allowed to run free they will probably kill any coyotes,stray dogs,cats,or any other animal that they catch invading their space.

To learn more about Livestock Guardian Dogs please visit http://lgd.org check out their library on breeds and training.

The Great Pyr is a wonderful dog! I recommend that you get a dog that has been temperamented tested and their temperament has been matched to your needs. You will find several different breeds of Livestock Dogs and breeders at the link.

Here is a link that might be useful: Livestock Guardian Dogs

As someone that also has a Great Pyr -- not all Livestock Guardian Dog breeds, are good LGDs. It really is up to the individual personality of the dog.

This, pyr library has one of the most extensive articles on pyrs and LGDs that I have come across. Here is a major research study requires acrobat reader on LGDs from the USDA.

Pyrs are very, very protective and defensive. If you have any type of livestock -- having the coyotes, etc coming by may not be in the best interest.

Good luck. My Pyr is very lovable and a wonderful lap dog (she thinks she is... ;p )

sharyn

Sharyn, I can't thank you enough for refering me to the LGD research link. I've have read a lot about this subject but there's an amazing wealth of information here I have not found anywhere else. Everyone who's considering getting a LGD should check out this link.

Thanks to you as well Franc and Westbrook.

Good luck. The 'Giant' breed of dogs aren't for everyone and all situations.

Sarah (my pyr) is wonderful. She's very protective of me, barks at everything -- though that is part of it. I think she even barks at the space station ;p

You may also wish to check out the rescued dogs. Some of them may work out also.

sharyn

I'd suggest going with a herding dog or a livestock guardian breed, but also setting them up with a job to do so that they don't assign themself the job of harassing the local wild-life.

If your land is suitable for a small herd of goats, a livestock dog bonded to the herd will serve most of the homesteading functions that you are looking for.

We have two Rottweiler house dogs and herd of 6 goats that are allowed full run of our fenced 15 acres during daylight hours. The young female dog sees it as her job to keep watch on the herd, the house and us - and can usually be found in one of several choice vantage points where she can do all simultaneously. She's too busy to pay attention to squirrels, but will occasionally trail a rabbit if she can do so without letting her herd get out of sight. Old male dog is a momma's boy and sees it as his job to keep guard of me and to act as mentor and supervisor for the young dog.

I'm not sure how the young dog would respond to a coyote, but when stray dog pack pass through the area, she stacks herself up in an intimidating manner and stands silently at watch between her herd and the pack until they move on. Of course, we have adequate fencing so that only a determined predator on the hunt would even attempt to cross from public territory to Guard Dog Diva's domain. Old boy Guinness stays near me or the gate near the house, letting Diva do all of the work, but he'll toss out a deep rumbly bark or two so the dog pack knows Diva does have back-up forces if needed. Gunness is also in charge of marking the perimeter of the land so that strays know better than to venture through the fence.

I'm sure they do scare off some wildlife, but since they have jobs they don't have a need to interfere with the other residents of the property. We have a lot of resident animals that keep their distance from the dogs, but accept their presence.

We have very few deer in the area because the land is so hilly and rocky. (There are hoards of deer within a few miles, but they stick to easier and more productive and inviting land.) For several years, though, our land has been the home turf and nursery to one particular mother deer and her annual offspring. She learned within the first few meetings with us that our dogs wouldn't chase her - Guinness will heel on a voice command no matter how exciting deer look, and Diva will heel with a vibrating signal to her collar, and back up shock if she's too excited to pay attention. Both dogs had a good deal of seprevision in our first few months on the land so that we established the rules for them - we didn't geve them the job of making up their own sets of rules. We now have the dogs trained to not run at the deer, and the mother deer isn't afraid of them at all. They usually stay to the other side of the fence during dog/goat free range time, but sometimes share the turf when everyone is out. They also are likely to bunker down inside the fenced area - in the favorite fawn nursery area - during hunting season.

A few weeks ago, one of this year's young ones jumped the fence and was on our land. He was hiking along a path, and Guinness just fell into step behind as if he was walking behind the goat herd. The young deer seemed puzzled by this big dog walking 20 feet behind, but didn't panic - just trotted to the fenceline in a timely way and jumped to the other side to watch from a distance.

The biggest things for us were:

1. Give the dogs work so they use their energies for good rather than evil.

2. Give them some solid training in not chasing other animals before you let them spend their days unsupervised.

3. Have a good fence so that the daily routine of dogs, herd and wildlife is less likely to be subject to new situations or surprises that require them to make chase/fight/protect decisions in areas where they may not have enough experience to make good judgements.

Lynda

Lynda,

Sounds like you have a great place there, with everything running the way it should! I, on the other hand, am starting from scratch, so thank you for giving me a very clear idea of how to proceed, and what steps to take in training my dog. Your generous advise is much appreciated. If its okay with you I'd like to ask you a couple of new questions --everyone else feel free to jump in with your two cents.

My land consists of 100 slightly pitched acres. All undisturbed woodlands (trees, rocks, and shrubs) with a large spring-fed pond. I'm in the early planning stages of building an off-the-grid farmstead. Initially, I had ideas like planting some fruit trees, peaches, cherries, all around the land, not together in a field, but scattered in a random, natural-looking pattern.

There's a large deer, coyote, and bear population around here and I've been told that the bears alone will destroy the young fruit trees by climbing on them and breaking off the branches, so I guess this and a few other impractical romantic notions are all out the window.

I also want to have a small heard of alpine goats, couple of horses, green house, barn, free-ranging chickens, etc. It's starting to become clear to me - particularly after reading your reply-- that I will need to fence in a few acres of land in which to do what I want to do without being in constant battle with all the native predators. So here are my questions:

How many acres of land do you think I should enclose for the above. You mention having 15 acres which strikes me as an ideal amount. What kind of fence do you have on your property? Has it proved to be adequate? How much maintenance does it require? And lastly, What would be the approximate cost of installing this kind of fence today? Thanks again for your valuable input.

Our 15 acres backs on 138 acres of woodlands owned by Mead paper company. We are also very close to one of there 3000 acre woodlands. We rarely have bear in the area, but there are coyotes back there and feral dogs are a big problem in the area. So in some ways, we're dealing with a similar wildlife situation to you.

We have two fenced areas: The night pasture and the perimeter fence.

The night pasture is about an acre enclosing a bit of pature, crossing a small creek, and then enclosing a bit of hillside wood. We fenced that ourselves using galvanized T-psts and 48 inch welded wire fencing from tractor supply. Materials were somewhere around $600, and it took a bit of time getting the fence to conform to hilly land. Lots of crimping and tucking to get it secure.

One overgrown acre can be eaten down in two seasons by a pair of young goats. One acre will not support six goats if you want them to make browse their primary feed. (Ours only have a bit of hay for super rainy days, and a tiny little bit of corn & sweet feed for a snack.)

We got the first two goats in May 2003, and had only the small pasture until December of that year. After the goats had settled in for a few weeks, we started taking them out for a couple of hours a day to hike with us and settle into browsing on the rest of the land.

We set up the small pasture so that it is close to the house (less than 100 feet away) so we can intervene quickly if there are predators. For housing, we started with Poly Jumbo Hutch calf hutch from Loyal Roth in Wisconsin. Ample and cozy for two goats. When we went to 6 goats, we got the Poly Group hutch - and that's serious luxury accomodations for the herd!

We had the perimeter fenced put in last December. The estimate was about $12,000 and actual cost was $16,000 because the linear length of the fence was so much greater than on the plot drawing due to hills and ravines everywhere. We cleared the perimeter line ourselves. (Took hubby most of the Summer that year.) We had a really good fencer put in the fence for us, are pleased with the work, and expect this fence to hold up for at least 30 years (with occasional repairs if needed). Some of the fencing cost was also due to the fact that most of the fence line was too steep to get to with a Bobcat or ATV, so there was a LOT of hand carrying materials and that added some time and labor to the job.

The fence is mainly 7 strand high tensile with 3 hot wires. It circles the perimeter, but by the house it cuts around so that we actually have the house, front yard, driveway and garage fenced out. The part right near the house is 4 board fence with welded wire to dog proof it and wooden fence posts. Also, 4 heavy duty stock gates - two near the house, and two so we can go hike the Mead land. :)Except for right by the house and at corner posts or braces, we have metal T-posts instead of wood posts. The land is so irregular that the T-posts make a lot more sense.

We have the perimeter livestock fence come up to within a foot of the back porch. That makes it easy to let dogs in and out, and lets the goats come hang out near where we are. Since we don't keep a billy and the goats free range for food, they always smell like talcum powder. We like being able to let them come right up to the house now so that they bond well with us, and so that they know where to go for safety if there is ever danger on the land. It is also great to sit at the kitchen table and look out the window to see happy cud chewers.

We sunk a lot of money into the fence, but there are much more economical ways to do it if you do it yourself or if you have flat or rolling land. One of the guys at work has got about 150 acres, mostly farmland with some low bramble area, and he fences with three strand hot wire and really cheap metal posts. He has straight lines and open land and can set up or move a fence in no time. Since at least 80 acres of his land is visible from the house, that's more than adequate for security. Some of his goat kids do go in and out of the fence when they are young, but the adults have plenty to eat inside and don't want shocked noses. The kids don't go far from the herd, and eventually outgrow their ability to escape. The stuff outside the fence isn't any more tasty than the stuff inside, so they eventually stay put.

Our fence is more solid than that one, and we feel that is important because most of our land is out of sight over ridgelines. The fence was constructed well, but my husband had to do a bit of tweaking as the posts settled in - especially in the spring thaw. Then again, in spots the only thing supporting the fence posts are coal seams, so our land may be more challenging than some - the fencer did say it was the toughest job he ever did. Some of the fence goes up over 60% grades. I'm glad he did the fencing, not us!

The high tensile is sturdy, even if a tree falls on it. Just cut the tree off. We do spray under it to keep green stuff from growing up and cutting out the charge. We also brush cut a bit of a swath so that the goats never get to see something super tasty and tempting coaxing them to challenge the fence. Hubby has had to replace a fence insulator or two if a tree branch or running deer hits the fence.

The whole thing was set up to look like a donut, with the night pasture being located where the donut hole is. We liked the idea of requiring that predators have to cross two fences to get to the goats at night or when we aren't home. Also, if there was a disturbance at night, dogs get let out and can go all away around the goats' night pen to make sure that things are safe. "Double donut" fencing takes a lot of worry out of raising livestock.

We added 4 more goats this year and will hold at 6 so that we undergraze the land. We like how well conditioned they are from the food variety and from having to work to get it. We go through about 4 bales of hay in a Winter for 6 goats, and we go through a yogurt cup of corn + sweet feed each evening for their bedtime snacks. The snack makes going back to the night pen a real treat for them (we actually lock them out of the night pen during the day so that we spare the greenery for when we might really need to count on it.)

The goats are pets and landscape crew, not a business for us. Next year, we are planning to get a calf to train as an ox so that we have a way to pull the wood chipper to the top of the hill. Except when it is very dry, there's no way a tractor will handle the grade and the runoff sections. The current fence will be fine for him as well.

Lynda

Sounds like a pretty grand plan.
Where in the Cats are you? Beautifull country up there. My dad used to take my brothers and me deer hunting every year at a place near the beginning of the Beaverkill, at the base of the tallest mountain in the catskills, called Graham Mountain. We were winter camping, for a couple of weeks, at least five miles from anybody else. Beautifull experience. Pretty grim in the winter tho. Hope you've got better companions than livestock to keep you company :)
I've got good friends near Phoenecia. They say that by January they can't wait for spring which doesn't occur for another three months.
I'm down in lower Orange, at the extreme lower tip of your area. More temperate.
Best of luck. Keep us posted.

Lynda,

You're giving me --and every new homesteader, a wealth of useful information that raise many new questions. I'm going to post some of these on a new thread.

A million thanks again.

I love my blue heeler. She is mild mannered with my grandkids which aren't around all the time. She will take them by the hand if she feels they are getting to close to things like snakes etc. She makes the cows stay at a distance if they get rowdy. Otherwise if they are just following its okay. She not much of a rider she'd rather walk. But most healers love to ride. She is the best dog I've ever had. She is however getting old & blind so I don't get take her as many places anymore. She is a mid size dog so I can let her in the house or outside. I intend to get another blue heeler cross or full blood. It takes them till they are about 2 years old before they get over alot of there puppy hood. Most people give up on them before they get that old. Check with your vet to see if he knows of one that needs a home. They are fast moving dogs & protective. They learn well and fast. I will always keep blue heelers. I had a very bad experience with the Great Pyrenees. But this doesn't mean all are bad, I just haven't found a good one that other people has had. To make a long story short. A dairy farms cow went down halving a calf and it looked as if the dog chased it down. And it chewed on the calfs front feet and the back side of the cow before they found it. Cow died, calf was crippled. I know of sevearl others also that people have and I've never seen one be protective without being really aggressive. Heelers have great temperments. My 1st heeler was a great dog also.The only problem I've ever had with the 1st one is he'd chase cars and thats what happened to him. They are so dedicated.

Hmmm...we don't have any experience with them yet but we're planning on German Shepherds when we finally homestead. They're incredibly smart and I don't think you'd have much of a problem teaching them what to chase and what not. I do know someone who lived with a male in the Mojave for a period of time...he was extremely protective yet knew not to attack the few regular visitors she had. At least not seriously. ;-) The dog did a good job of training a new mutt pup, too. I've heard males are more territory protective, while females are more pack protective (meaning you and your kids, too). I've also heard they will "herd" your children. A good instinct in a dog, if you ask me. :)

The livestock guardian breeds is,if trained properly can work for you . The great Pyrnees is the gentler of the breeds but if you don't want them chasing everthing ...instead of them bonding to the livestock get one that will bond to the family . Also you may want to look at dogs with SHOW lines, not true/or strong WORKING lines if you don't want them to be WORKING and doing what they are Bred to do ! The animal shelters also have good mix breed dogs that Need a Good Homes and if "TRAINED" can make a excellent pets /guardians/ companions.Start with a puppy and train him the way you want him to be .Good luck.
dogtrainer

I've got two australian shepherds. You can't go wrong with them if you ask me. Oh and herding children is not a good thing especially if you have a nipping breed. You would need to nip that in the bud immediately. Heelers and aussies are nippers as they are cow herders so make sure they don't herd the children. Mine nip and they know not to bite hard but when Annie gets going sometimes she forgets to not bite so hard. They are very smart and velcro dogs. Which means they'll stick to their owners. A good Aussie will be calm when you want them to calm and raring to go when they need to be. I don't do any herding with mine but the way Annie herds the cat she may have potential. They learned quickly not to mess with the pet ferrets and also learned not to get to close to the cat when she didn't want to be messed with. Squirrels on the other hand are another story. But I'm sure I could have convinced them that chasing the squirrels was not a good idea. On the other hand Singer has caught rabbits, and baby chicks and not harmed them at all. He's spit them out when told and they went on their way. They did unfortunately decided to play with the baby bunnies in the garden. I put them back in the nest and as far as I know the mother moved them so the babies must have lived as I never did find any dead ones. They are really good dogs. Oh one other thought. I do have guinea pigs now and I don't trust them all together but when I have the little fence down they know not to step over the fence but to lay down and watch the piggies instead.

I also have a pyr. I had a baby chicken get loose once that he caught in his mouth and then stood perfectly still while waiting for me to retrieve it. He has never chased the chickens when there loose either, or the cats, but he will run off strays. When ever the kids leave the house he goes with them.
We had a problem with agression last summer. One of our cats was dying and he decided to protect her, from everyone including us. He attacked a friend who came to visit and then a few hours later my husband. Having him fixed took care of a lot of his agression problems. I still keep him in in the morning in case there is a new kid at the bus stop and I am cautious around strangers with him. If repair person comes over i put him in the utility room. I'd rather be cautious than sued.
The barking can be a pain. We have taught our pyr that once the lights in the house go out he is not allowed to bark and that is helpful. He will also jump through any open window in there is a screen in it or not. We no longer have any screens left on our windows.

I live on 10 acres of woods, and it is surrounded by hundreds more. My Bernese Mountain Dog is awesome. Lets me know the second anyone is around with a deep, fierce bark, she does not chase deer or venture more than a few yards from the cabin, she is always free and outdoors, the colder the better, loves children and visits the day care and senior centers. She is eight years old now and my only complaint is that she ignores the groundhogs.

coriander

If you're dog does this quite often.. there's specialty screen that's extremely cheap to aquire that can fix that from happening. Any dog or cat that wrecks screen..

Along with a few other pet proof products that I've found. I always add them to my blog as I find them.. if you find others i'll be more than happy to add them.