What a very beautiful tree and a sad loss. How about a Magnolia? The one I am planting this Spring is Magnolia kobus loebneri 'Leonard Messel'. Below is a link where you can read more about it.

Steve

Here is a link that might be useful: Magnolia loebneri 'Leonard Messel'

I love japenese maples (the kind that grow out rather than up) in a burgaundy color. It contrasts extremely well with the blues, greens and golds of hosta.

Hmmm...I think a tricolor beech would be a real standout in that spot...and beech are in the oak family, so I don't think the roots would be too bad. Maybe Ken could post his photo of the one at his back door...and give us some imput about the root system.

PS A river beech is also a very beautiful tree. And there is a weeping version if you like weepers.

We just planted a Japanese coral bark maple today. I plan to grow hostas under it. I also have hostas under an old redbud, more under several dogwoods, and a mimosa tree shades another bed. A beech is a great suggestion, if I had room for one I would try it.

I am just sick about losing this tree, it was perfectly sized to shade that entire side of the patio and it will be hard to replace it :-(

I will check out all of the wonderful suggestions tomorrow at lunchtime from work, my home computer is too old and slow! Has anyone had any real time experience successfully growing hosta underneath the suggestons?

Would crepe myrtles, or flowering crabapples work? What about dogwoods (although I guess I wouldn't get much privacy above the fence line from them).

I imagine it is going to be hard to shade the existing plants until whatever tree I plant gets big enough to provide any shade - I maybe could temporarily put a couple of potted bananas in there to help shade?

I just don't know what to do and I'm sure it will be hard to remove the dead tree without damageing the hostas too - not a fun situation at all!

BettyLu

Tricolor beech are pretty but are slow growers. I am slowly losing my two large Silver Maples so I decided to put in there replacements a couple years ago. A Chanticleer Pear with a Flowering Dogwood and a Redbud. The latter two are understory trees that can handle being planted beneath the Maples and be ok once the Maples are gone. The pear isn't all that happy being planted beneath the maples but as I lose more branches off the maples it will do better. The Dogwood has to be replaced already as I found out that there is a virus in my soil that kills Dogwoods. So now I have to find another flowering understory tree for that spot.

In the meantime I use a large piece of shade cloth across the front of the house to shade my hostas from mid day and afternoon sun. It isn't pretty but it keeps my hostas from getting crispy.

bettylu,
You probably have to move the hostas or provide artificial shade for them because a new tree will be small and will take a long time to grow to the size the maple was. I have a Magnolia soulangiana of the size of your maple in my front yard. It grew rather bushy, so you would need to prune and train it. It is growing in that spot probably for 20 years. The flowers are pink and big and a great show in spring. But then there must be more mature trees in local nurseries, at a higher price, which will give more shade in the beginning.
Good luck!
Bernd

Your in St louis do Crepe mertle do well there? If so a Giant crepe mertle would realy do the trick i have one 30 ft high. have to remember though that their canopy even at that hight won't be expansive by many trees standards.

After spending my lunch hour checking out Missouri Botanical Gardens website, I came up with some "Plants of Merit" options. Unfortunately, there was only one that mentioned deep roots so that perennials and shrubs could be easily grown beneath and that was a "yellowood" tree "Cladrastis Kentukea", which I have never even heard of.

I don't know how a person is supposed to tell whether or not the tree will have terribly competitive roots for Hosta or not....and the crape myrtle is apparently not reliably winter hardy in the St. Louis area and so I will have to rule that one out.

Here is what I found:

The Yellowood tree mentioned above

Three different magnolias, Swamp (Virginiana var. australis), Sweet Bay (Jim Wilson "Moonglow"), and Grandiflora "Brackens Brown".

Fringe Tree "Chionanthus Virginicus

Redbuds - Cercis Canadensis "Forest Pansy"

Two Serviceberrys - Amelanchier arborea, Amelanchier Grandiflora "Autumn Brilliance"

Two Smoke Trees - Cotinus obovatus and Cotinus Coggygria "Velvet Cloak"

Black Gum - Nyssa Sylvatica

River Birch Betula Nigra "Cully"

Common Hornbeam - Corpinus betulos "Fastigiata"

Any thoughts on any of these?
BettyLu

bettylu did you check on giant crape myrtle. I have seen a photo af some grown as far north as Maryland. Now they may well not be a true Giant or Queen, or Banada. as they are listed as only sub tropical, but the photos i saw of northern variety, they were at least a good 20 ft tall, which would do for your yard size. You'd have to check with a nursery as there are tons of varieties and the photos just listed the genous lagerstromia.

Bettylu,

Grenfell recommends against the following trees: Beech, Birch, Cherry, Large Maples, and Willows. These trees have roots that grow just below the surface and compete with Hostas.

Suitable ornamental trees are Serviceberry, Japanese Maples, Pagoda tree, Honey Locust, Black Tupelo, Stuartia, Crabs and Apples, and Magnolia loebneri.

As for large trees, Oak are, of course, the best.

Steve

One thing about Magnolias, having one on our farmette and one next door to me here in town. granted they are great shade trees, but they are a mess ,those large thick leaves and those big seed pods play havock with a mower. They are pretty in spring and summer with the shiney large dark green leaves and huge flowers, but the fall-out is a pain.

I have hostas growing under my magnolia, though do not know about root competition at this moment. In respect to seed pods and leaves, I rake them up, actually pick the seed pods off by hand for neatness. Magnolia leaves should not be put in a compost, I read.

Bernd mature Magnolias are fine for hosta, not to sure about a growing one. Man some of the roots of the Magnolia on the farm run about 10 ft and more from the trunk above ground and are thicker then me. yes it's a Hundred year old tree and must be 100 ft high and a canopy that covers at least 50 ft. Heh doubt that a new tree and hostas would have any problems. Not sure how things would be decades down the road, but then if it were say me planting them , I wouldn't be alive anymore when any problems arose.

gosh, I hate to think magnolia leaves shouldn't be in compost. I've got last years waiting to be used and i have 10 bags of mixed stuff waiting to be composted, that i would hate to have to pick a bunch of leaves out of.

Hi grumpy, it is a very long time from buying a tree in a store until being able to sit under it in the shade. My magnolia does not show any roots on the surface, did not see any either when I enlarged a bed 3 ft around the trunk several years ago. In fall the leaves usually fall within 2 weeks, and I usually run a few circles around it with the lawnmower and put that then into the garbage.
Have a good one! Forecast here is up to 11 inches of snow on April 1, wonder if that is a joke?
Bernd

Another option to get more shade sooner is a tree spade. If there is access for a good sized truck to get to the area in your yard you might check on pricing to have this done. It isn't cheap but you won't have to wait a decade or more to get some shade. Many nurseries will have tree sales in the spring and fall. If you buy one of their field dug trees over a certain size/dollar amount they will plant it for free. Large trees with 5"-6" trunks are quite expensive but it is another option for you.

that truck isnt going to happen in that small yard ...

where is bushia.. babka???

the prime suggestion for this application would be a shade cloth installation .... and i seem to think babka could give some pix ...

below is a shade cloth set up i made for my freckled red head .. OBVIOUSLY... you would scale it down SIGNIFICANTLY ... it could be done very nicely ... much more appropriate for that setting ....

i just dont see where a small tree is going to give you much shade.. for years to come .... and i dont see you getting a large one in there ...

good luck

ken

{{gwi:250981}}

my experience has been that crabapples are not good to plant hosta under.

Ken, you are right about my small yard not having access for a truck or tree spade... the largest wheeled vehicle I can get in the yard is a lawn mower! I wouldn't want to build a shade structure (by myself!) but I do have banana plants in pots that could temporarily help out with the shade...or maybe I could lean something against the fence -like a simple frame/screen combo - that way I could put it away easily for the evening if I have friends over.

I did go by a local nursery that was open till 6pm last night on the way home and for about $100 give or take a bit they had some nice redbud (different varieties) that already had decently spreading branches and several varieties of magnolias for a bit more. The magnolias had more of a multi-stemmed bushy shape, with branches all the way to the ground - not enough spread or the form I would be able to use to grow hosta underneath. I could go with magnolias only if I decide to move the hosta until there is shade being produced in that bed again.

They didn't have all their tree varieties delivered yet for the season but there is another, larger nursery I want to check out too. Maybe they will have the serviceberry, magnolia loeberni, and stuartia from the Grenfels list.

I thought japanese maples were supposed a bad combination for hosta like the regular maples? If they are OK (and I guess I did successfully grow hosta under the mature japanese maple that just died) I can check out what is available at the other nursery. For the Crape myrtles, as I understand it, in the St. Louis area you run the risk of winter die-back and so have to assume you will usually have more of a bush than a tree (although I do see some tree-shaped ones around). I will have to ask about the giant crape myrtle, or look it up online.

Thanks for all the opinions, it is very helpful!
BettyLu

Well, ok this is going to sound weird, and well it is weird, but instead of cutting down your dead tree, as it looks now you could hang the same type shade screen that is on that pergola picture over the sand lot, on your dead branches. Ugly yes , silly option most definately, but way cheap option and may even look kitchie/cool, ok, doubt it.

This will be my 3rd year of having to use a 40' x 10' shade cloth and I hate it. It is hideous but it is either that or let things get cooked. I wanted to build a large pergola but the city won't let me unless I can get a variance. The city lets me have this ugly shade cloth across the front of the house but they won't let me have a nice pergola. Building a pergola is another option for you.
{{gwi:949596}}

Building a pergola is beyond my expertise and I can't afford to have someone else do it :-(

I never thought about leaving the tree.... it actually could work - I have lots of volunteer sweet autumn clematis that I could train up the tree and this variety doesn't even die back to the ground each winter. The tree is a really nice, somewhat gnarly shape that would look very sculptural covered with a vine. I could even use some annual vines this year until the sweet autumn gets some size on it.

What do you all think? It it worth a shot? I could even purchase a couple of reasonable price ornamental trees to plant on either side of the "sculpture/vine-covered tree" and maybe be able to fudge the shade a bit until my newly planted trees get big enough to do the job. Is this crazy or what?
BettyLu

First of all, I'm very sorry that you lost your tree. It will take many years to grow something with that sort of spread. A beautifully designed patio cover (pergola) would give you immediate shade.

-Babka

your solution might be as simple as two patio umbrellas.. w/o the tables ...

no pix of your lattice/screened areas babka????

ken

What, no comment on the "cool" vine covered bare branches?

I guess I should take that as a "no, not a good idea" from the forum members.

While a patio umbrella or two might work (hmmmm.... I seem recall being teased a bit and a photoshopped picture was posted of my Sum & Substance lounging under a patio umbrella with a cold drink - LOL) - there is always the issue of wind and allowing for the movement of the sun.

If I make something myself - I will have to buy or borrow some tools, probably, so whatever I do would need to be really, really simple construction-wise. Would the pre-made lattice be enough shade?

If I get two new trees that have a decently high branching point, maybe they could help support shade cloth at a much lower height than FranknJims structure (attach just below the branches) I do know how to sew, so I could custom fit something that could attach to the fence in the back, come forward around the new trees and I guess be staked in the front a few feet above the ground. I saw some really pretty decorative 4' tall iron stakes/posts at Homegoods that could easily be the corner supports for shade cloth.

BettyLu

I usually take photos of what is under the patio covers. Here are a couple from today. The first one faces East, and those are 2"x2" on 4" centers on top w/o any shade cloth. I get sun here for 1/2 a day.

{{gwi:949598}}

This is the 'atrium' that gets full sun all day,and due to logistics, the 2"x2" are laid in the other direction...so we put them on 6" centers and covered the works with white 50% shade cloth. As it turns out I love the polypropylene cloth. Falling leaves from the neighbors trees blow right off the slick surface. As you can see, some hostas are up and others are just poking up noses.

{{gwi:949600}}

marylu they aren't that expensive to make, like the one pictured above thats a simple design. Just be sure post are sunk 4 ft down for stability and heave, you really don't have to fill with cement, if you go 3 ft deep use cement. reason i have the 2 different depths is hieght issue, if ya use 4ft then 6 ft left, then with the cross top braces unless your short it might be a headache(literally). 10 ft i think is longest length, so keep that in mind. if they have longer length then no problem 11 ft would be perfect. The design above isn't a pergola perse, but should do fine. if you want somethng thats vines can trail easily on you'll need a different setup up top, and wont be a basic square as pictured, would be long with less width, and have length with topbeams instead of across and more of them. For just simplisity in build and shade the one pictured above would work. If you want more estetics and multi function, then just function you'd want to change it up.

Not sure this helped ya much been so long since i built a deck or Pergola, not sure of prices. don't hold me to it, but i'm thinking less then 200 for that, but with todays prices i may be wrong. when i was at home depot yeterday looking at plywood i bout fell over when they wanted 34 dollars for a sheet of drywood plywood, SOOOOOOOOO...

The vines in the tree is a good idea. You would need something for the vines to wrap around the thicker branches like string, chicken wire, fishnet, etc.

When using a large shade cloth, the supports have to be very strong. Mine is supported on the yard side by 2' and 3' thick maples and 3/16" aircraft cable/wire rope. When the wind kicks up it can do some damage if not attached securely. Maple seeds collect on mine that I have to keep off or else it sags. I want to replace my black shade cloth with a green one so it doesn't stand out as much. I think I paid about $150.00 for the piece of shade cloth from a local nursery.

that wasn't fair while i was writing my post that post with the perfect pergola drops in on top of me. sentence the simple design pictured above looks silly, but was referencing the one over the sand , I'm sure most everyone could figure that out sooner or later but, just amazing those perfect photos show up just befor i hit submit.

Grumpy-

You are not the first person to do that, nor the last. Of course it NEVER happens to me, ahem, cough, cough, eyes rolling. And once you hit that submit button it is written in stone, with no chance to edit. It is okay. ;-)

I have a question for Ken: Who digs the holes in the sand? The freckled red-head or that little piggie at the base of the ladder?

-Babka

Well, I suppose if you didn't like the vining in the dead tree, you could always go back to plan A, right?

Another thought: A shade sail, which I happen to think are very cool, but they're usually used in a more contemporary setting. I also don't know how it might fair since you live in tornado alley and have a few storms each year with some rippin' winds!

that is a cool look and i could see it pulling up stakes and moving to Kansas City durring the first storm. even if you had some sort of an angle adjustment system, not sure how long it would last and you'd have to be there to use it. could actually build that out of plywood.....problems: good think plywood that wouldn't be effected much by any wind,would be super heavy and not cheap. thin plywood would flex not sure how well it would do, you'd use the steal plates along all seams. with a quarter inch plywood would be cheap to build, just not sure how it would do.

GGG: Shade sails are made of fabric, not wood. Here's another one:

BTW: They can get super spendy, but I saw some more economical ones on ebay!

I absolutely LOVE the shade house structure Babka has, and the design of it could go a little more traditional/ cottagey, which is more my look than the cool contemporary shade sails.

If I had the money.... sigh... I would definitely do a lovely privacy backed pergola similar to that (PERFECT for this space), but unfortunately building one myself is not an option, and at least this year, having it done for me is out.

I have just about decided that I am going to figure out what tree/trees I ultimately want there, and temporarily move the shade plants elsewhere until I start getting enough shade to take care of them. I'll try to get the clematis to vine up the dead tree (just for grins!) If it looks cool, great, if not - well then I'll remove it.

I am still planning on visiting the larger nursery to check out the Grenfels recommended hosta tree companions - hopefully they will have them in stock so I can see what they look like!

It will be a job, getting the twelve or so hostas moved to another location (along with the other shade-loving perennials), but I keep telling myself that this is an OPPORTUNITY to dig deep and improve this bed for when I can move them back!

This seems to be the most prudent choice for me, and one that I'm going to have to get cracking on! The hosta are poking up about 1/2" and I need to move them ASAP!

It just goes to show you - gardening is a verb and between mother nature and new plant varieties that "ya just gotta have" our outdoor spaces are always changing/challenging us!

BettyLu

I like the vine idea...why not?? The tree structure is incredibly cool and it would save the expense of having to remove it. Try it and if you like it...awesome! If not, you have lost nothing but a few vines and a little time.

May be too big and messy for what you want, but look up the Catalpa tree. They are fast growing, up to 3-5 ft in a year, have large heart-shaped leaves, and have beautiful flowers in June. But, they are messy. Looking at your picture again, ya, it may be too big. Still, if you want, take a look.

Karen

Empress Tree(paulownia) can grow 10-15' a year. I planted three 12" saplings 2 years ago and they died back to the ground the first winter here in zone 5 but grew to 6' last year. Will see how they do this year since the trunks got to be about an inch thick last year. The leaves on it are about 16" wide. I bought them on ebay for a few bucks each.

I think the vine idea is fantastic. I have a friend who grew loofahs up a tree like yours and hung wind chimes, lanterns, twinkly lights etc. it looks amazing.

Are you sure the tree is dead?

The freeze damage from a few years back consisted of all of the horizontal branches losing their upper surfaces, dying, and all the bark popping and peeling off, right down to past the growing layer. The tree tried to recover and was growing new bark to try to cover the dead surfaces, but there was still a strip about 2" wide that exposed the non-growing innner layer. The tree also had a number of spots where the previous homeowner may have removed branches and cut past the "collar" because there were large nubby dead spots on the trunk that were rotted and in poor shape.... who knows? Maybe the tree has been living on borrowed time for the past 14 years?

There is one small branch that is fairly low on the trunk that didn't get the freeze damage that is leafing out over about half the branch. The rest of the tree is definitely dead.

I am going to move all the shade plants, select and plant my future shade/ornamental tree(s) for next to the patio and grow some sun-loving things there until I can get back to having shade. I don't know what else to do without spending money I don't have building a shade pergola or erecting a temporary shade structure around the trees.

I might even tuck in a tomato plant or two - since I will have a spot for full sun! YUM! - this will be my consolation prize!
BettyLu

I think the sweet autumn clematis sounds like a good idea. I have it and it can get huge. Why not combine the SAC on the existing tree (Wow!, will that smell good in August, or what?), and plant the new trees in that area as well. You may have to supplement the shade with strategically placed shade cloth until the SAC and the new trees get big enough to do the job.

You say you sew - wait until you see where you need shade. You could put an eye hook in the fence (lower to the ground than the photos of the other ideas, as you do not need to walk under it) to anchor there. Use a metal fence post (if you paint it with camouflage paint, it might blend in better) for the anchor on the other sides. You just hammer them into the soil and they are easy to remove when you no longer need them. The idea is to rig up a hook and eye system, so that you can remove the shade cloth when you have guests. You'll have to spend time at a good hardware store and figure out some combo of sewing, grommets, hooks (think about the hooks on dog leashes) that will shade your plants from the hot sun. (maybe the kite shape would work.)

You'll have to mess with this for a while, until your trees get bigger. Also, the japanese maple will rot, so the SAC (I would plant another clematis or two for extra color) solution would not be forever.

Depending on your budget and your talents, you can take all of the ideas and use a piece of each. I would definitely use black shade cloth, though. Also, if you get a windstorm, most likely it will not totally destroy your system. You may have to replace the cloth, but you can re-use most of the hardware. Shade cloth has holes in it, so it's not like hanging a tarp out there. It allows some air to flow through it.

Good luck.

bkay

Thanks Bkay for the encouragement...I go back and forth as to what to do because I am really bummed that this happened. And as much as I do love tomatos and don't have more than a sliver of sun anywhere else, I would much rather find a way to make it where the shade plants can stay put...

As I understand it, if the hosta DO end up getting too much sun, they won't die and may in fact multiply, but just be ugly from sunburn, right?

I'd like to try the the SAC vine on the sculptural shaped tree (what do I have to lose?) and the tree won't need to be trimmed much at all. Some of the hosta will have to go to new homes, though, due to needing the space for the new trees.

For the shade cloth, my plan was to make a casing like a curtain to slide a rod into on each edge, and hook the one rod to the fence and the others onto the support poles at patio edges. Since shade cloth doesn't ravel/fray easily, I thought I could split it at each tree where needed.

This really needs to be a project for the next few weeks, because due to all the unseasonably warm weather we are having (hit 90 degrees last Sunday!), everything is leaping out of the ground! I figure they can take the sun for now, but all too soon the heat of summer will be catching me unprepared - and I still haven't decided on the replacement trees yet!

Gosh, I better get a move on!!!

BettyLu

BettyLu,

You are correct that sun will not kill Hosta, but it may scorch them. You can prevent or reduce scorching by giving them lots and lots of water. All those beautiful leaves transpire a great deal of water in the intense afternoon sun, thus scorching. I would go with the SAC suggestion. Buy two of them and fertilize the heck out of them with a high nitrogen fert. That should get them going. SAC will grow 30 feet at maturity. It will overtake that tree structure very quickly.

Steve

I finally visited the nursery and purchased my replacement trees. I decided on the serviceberry 'Autumn Brilliance' (single trunk) for the section of the bed closest to the house and walk and a fragrant pink crabapple for the other end of the bed where there is more room. Both trees are about 9-10 feet tall and look very healthy. I also shaped the dead tree structure so that once the SAC covers it, I'll have a very cool living "sculpture".

All of this was done on another unseasonably HOT day in St. Louis - I think it was 95 degrees!!!! I HATED digging in the soil when it is still so wet - once I got down past the first 8" or so, the clay was really, really saturated. I did what I could and mixed in a bunch of compost and refilled with what decently dry-ish soil I could find (not from the bottom of the hole!)

The hosta I removed are potted up for now because I had a surprise visit from my daughter and her husband on Sunday when I was going to re-plant them. They leveled & re-set my retaining wall for me- YAY! Nothing like a great son-in-law who has all the right tools for cutting the blocks)!

I haven't yet bought/located shade cloth. The nursery I bought the trees from did not have any for sale.

I was actually considering doing something a little crazy - there is room to put in 3-4 tomato plants here and there and they might provide enough shade to the hostas I did not remove - I told you it was crazy!

Almost all my hosta are up - only a few scragglers that are barely showing. I need to get out and take my pictures to compare to last year at this time. I just love how perfect they look right now and THIS year I am going to be proactive to fight the slugs!!!

Happy Spring!
BettyLu

I planted some brugsmansias one year throughout my hosta beds to provide shade when I lost a tree. It worked pretty well even though they weren't hardy in my zone. Then the next year I planted a couple of native trees like spice bush, paw paw and service berry in the space thru my bed to provide shade in the coming years.
Did the hostas fry for a couple of years...yes, but they lived and are bigger and better a few years later. Just provide extra irrigation for them and they will do fine. I am from the St. Louis area originally so I know how cruel your summers can be. Just sit back this summer on the hill and have a gelato for me. Boy, I miss the shops and Vivianos and DeGregrios grocery stores.