Ah, Barbara, I believe that it's more ignorance than malevolence. Also, having worked happily at a garden center for years, I know the profit margins are slim, and private garden center folk simply can't afford to be activists. Nonetheless, 'outing' needs to happen. I applaud your activist approach, and your questions are right on target. 'Where do you start to wise them up?' Yup, at the top, would be my answer. Find an executive who says 'Hey, this ain't right.'
Christine

Greenleaf is a huge operation, they sell to mass markets (Lowes, H.D.) as well as smaller nurseries, and their plants are tagged with their labels. I have never been afraid to buy Greenleaf plants, but their hostas are now on my "not" list. I will never buy another one. Trees and shrubs, yes.

I have also seen hostas with Monrovia tags with HVX. I would be extremely suspicious of those, also.

Plants with those labels are not grown by the nurseries, they are shipped in full grown by the wholesalers.

This is not to say that the big growers don't have good other plants. But they definitely don't have a handle on HVX free hostas.

Sandy

There is a simple fix, actually.......Dont buy hosta at the box stores!!!
The fact remains that in 99% of the situations the people working at these stores have no clue, even after its pointed out to them. The diseased plants may be removed from the shelves but that doesn't mean they won't be placed back out there again when the workers don't have an explanation as to why they we're removed in th first place.
As a fellow cynic I always feel that we can never fix it because people are inherently stupid. They don't care where or how the plants get there, but only hat they cost 4.00 each.

My 2 cents worth

Dave
L

Most of us don't look at the label to see who the grower or the brand is, we just look at the name of the plant and the info. When you think about buying a plant from a big box store, look at that brand! Just like you would at the grocery store on the cereal box! Your dollars talk, don't buy a brand that you know isn't good quality!

bkay, sigh, you are right. And this fall, per Steve, I will apply Roundup to my 7+ diseased plants and then shovel-prune.

It isn't only the big box stores, it's any nursery that deals with the big growers, that trust their quality. I also saw HVX yesterday at a well-established nursery with a good reputation in Arkansas--plants with that same Greenleaf label.

Sandy

Ask Greenleaf about their HVX testing. They are obviously letting infected plants out on the market. Go to the source.

Here is a link that might be useful: Greenleaf Nursery

Thanks for the link, Sandy. They heard from me.

Steve

Greenleaf Nursery Company only purchases Hosta liners from certified Hosta virus X free suppliers from Holland. Greenleaf Nursery has a 65 year history of providing "Predictable Quality" plants and continually tests for this virus as well as many other possible diseases on a regular basis. This however does not guarantee that some infected plants will not get through. We do check periodically for this virus in our crop both with a visual check and a "virus X" test kit. Any time we suspect a hosta we cull it out immediately and contact our suppliers. We have quit buying from vendors in the past that have sent us infected plants.
GREENLEAF NURSERY COMPANY

If you bought your Hosta from TC suppliers who indexed their plants for all viruses then this wouldn't happen. Walters and Q&Z are quality suppliers whose plants are healthy. When you buy from Dutch suppliers you are getting 5% diseased Hosta. Apparently the Dutch have decided that 5% of HVX is allowable. If you don't want your label on diseased plant material then buy from sources that won't give you diseased plants. That is what the members of this forum do.

Steve

It is encouraging that they care enough to respond to this concern. Hopefully, this will underscore their need for continued due diligence.
Cj

Why is that encouraging? They told you they buy from Holland. They didn't say they were going to change anything. They probably have a program that monitors the gardening sites for their company name. That way they can respond to any issues. Again, that doesn't mean they're going to do anything.

I already said I am a cynic, though.

bkay

I like to think they responded because they heard from Steve. ;-)

-Babka

bkay,

I agree. There is no excuse for selling diseased plant material. None. If they bought their plants from Q&Z they would have to pay a few more dollars, but they would get disease free plants. This is an economic decision to sell crap and think they can get away with it. That's why they need to be called to account.

HVX is a disease of the plant industry. It is spread through these huge mechanized harvesters which cut hundreds of plants at a time. They harvest plants like this to save money. Obviously it takes only one diseased plant for these harvesters to spread disease in hundreds or thousands of plants. It's bad enough for local nurseries who have never heard of HVX. But it's inexcusable for growers to not know.

Steve

I think it's interesting that their tag line is "Predictable Quality".....very predictable I would think based upon their plant source. If they asked for which store location and offered to investigate would have been more encouraging.

Paul

In defense of some growers, they aren't harvesting them with mechanized machinery. They are buying TC's or a little larger plants and growing them to market size in pots. They never see real dirt.

Not that I really know, but it seems from what I've read here, that the problem has been and continues to be TC's from Holland. That's a USDA issue. If we want to do something, we should find out who is on the agriculture committee in the Senate and House and go to them with our concerns.

BUT, if I remember correctly, Rob said something about TC's from Costa Rica a few months ago. Are they allowing 5 percent infection rate from there, too?

When you figure how few of us who care and how widespread the probem is, it kind of seems like trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube.

bkay

Hear, hear! I agree with Dave. Do not buy from the big box stores. Every time I have gone to a Big Box, I have seen HVX on the hosta. Every time. I almost never buy from a garden center unless their specialty is hosta. I have yet to cry about HVX (of course, now that I have made this statement, this summer will be the year - jinx). I just don't want to put my collection at risk.

That leaves many of us in the south with no other source than mail order. Not that there's anything wrong with mail order, it would be nice to see what you're getting before you buy it.

I suppose I just picked the wrong plant to fall in love with. But then, like Bernd said the other day, I need to let some of mine grow up. I may be a lot more crowded than I thought I was. I swear, my S&S grew a foot since last year.

bkay

bkay,

You need to take a road trip. How far are you from Ohio or Made in the Shade? Better yet, go to Nashville for the convention. You should see the vending room at a National Convention. Gesilla would be on dopamine overload in that room.

Steve

I'm in Dallas, so I'm 1200 miles from Cleveland. Made in the Shade in Kansas City is abt. 550 miles. Also, I own a small business and hardly ever get away.

Maybe part of our problem here is that hostas are relatively new to this area. Everyone has always assumed that you can't grow them here. They aren't easy in the ground. You have to do heroic soil preparation. They are really easy in pots, though. But, no one knows that. There's a guy on the radio who told me you can't grow hosta in pots. Unfortunately (or maybe not), I didn't contradict him on the air.

Maybe I should be more proactive in teaching people about HVX.

bkay

Interesting discussion. I buy from smaller hosta specialty nurseries because I like to support small business. In the past year: Naylor Creek, Jims, In the Country, and Venero (and from someone at the midwest hosta convention). By buying from them not only do I get healthy hosta, I also support small business and specialty nurseries. Hopefully this will keep quality and variety available to us in the future.

So thats my wordy way of agreeing with "Don't buy from big box stores."

Beverly

bkay, yes my S&S is big with 27 eyes, mature plants look so much better than the puny single eye young ones. As someone wrote here, S&S has nicer sports, but I have those too, one looks like Vim & Vigor with streaking, can't wait how that one looks soon.
Sorry about that HVX, not to forget the nematodes and all the fungii and viruses, and slugs...some also have voles.
Bernd

If you choose to, or realistically must buy from box stores then it would be possible and prudent to just keep the hosta isolated for a few years and keep any scissors of shovels used for division sterilized in accordance with AHS instructions "household detergent (Dawn), 70% alcohol solution, and 10% household bleach solution were effective at eliminating infectivity of the virus. The decontamination process required intense scrubbing and cleaning of tools, hands, and pots to remove plant material, soil and sap. It is not enough to simply dip tools in cleaning solution. Tools must be scrubbed free of all dirt and debris."
I'm too lazy for all this, so I simply don't cut or divide quarantined hostas.
I keep "box store hostas" isolated (I have the room) for at least 3 years. Even planting them will not contaminate the shovel used as long as you just dig the hole with it. The plant tissue must be cut for the virus to be transmitted. If these procedures fail and I ever do find an infected hosta then I will kill it with Roundup (you can use vinegar if you want). I would then leave the area hosta free for at least 3 years. Neighboring hostas would probably grow in to cover the spot and this would be fine as they will not catch the virus if the infected hosta is not cut. Digging or pulling out the infected hosta is probably a bad idea as this could leave small amounts of infected tissue that could stay viable for over 2 years.
Also, if a hosta is simply planted without division or tweaking the roots then no transmission is possible even if hostas are in close proximity. I would call HVX "Hosta AIDS" where it is necessary to have transfer of fluids to be transmitted. If reasonable precautions are made, your hosta remains "HVX" free. After a few years you will have a good sized clump that you have enjoyed for 3 years and you can now divide it into 3 or 4 good sized plants and place wherever you think looks nice.
As long as no roots, stems or leaves are cut, then no transmission will happen. If one slips by this rigorous procedure (I don�t see how) then the worst outcome I can see is the loss of one hosta.
Now Nematodes, that really worries me.

Jon

I don't have HVX, Bernd. It's just that no one knows about it here. The nurseries don't know, the growers don't know and certainly, the end users don't know. However, everyone has heard this is the cool new plant, so they are in every nursery. Most of the people I've talked to are buying from "growers" who are buying TC's from all kinds of labs (ferns, hosta, etc. + annuals ) and growing them out to sell to the local nurseries.

They have no clue about HVX.

bkay

The statement was a PR prepared release, and I think it sounds like a recording from an answer machine. They probably have a bot cruising the web which reports back to them, because it was a single post and out-a-here. Not engaging in any discussion. Why? Because their path is set.

This is getting to be like the junk bond market, and the sliced and diced mortgages, it is a culture which avoids responsibility because they do not see the value in producing quality. How do you find the real grower? Will they please stand up? No way! You follow the money trail.
Who buys what from whom. Break any link in that chain and it will all fall down.

I've already pointed out once before that in a search via Google, I found a post by Pieterje which was only 15 minutes old (at the time). So either GWeb as a whole, or Hosta Forum as a resource standing alone is being closely monitored by Google bots because of general interest, or because some big customer of theirs is paying to have it scouted closely.

I have a good quotation for that:
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get me.

But of course I'm not paranoid, don't think it is a matter of "out to get", it is just another broken link in the American ethics ideals.

The username GreenleafWeb was just created today. Imagine that!

Moccasin's point about avoiding responsibility is right on the money. Pun intended. That diseased Gold Standard that Sandy discovered in her local nursery went from the initial Holland TC grower to Greenleaf (the wholesaler) to the local nursery. If these sellers were interested in eliminating the virus then don't you think they would have been able to do so in three different environments.

But they're not interested in eliminating the virus. They will attempt (as Greenleaf stated) to minimize it by pulling virused plants out of circulation if they can spot them. If they were truly interested in selling disease free plants, and not just giving us lip service, then they would buy from safe sources such as Shady Oaks, Q&Z, Walters, and Bentley Gardens.

Steve

Interesting of Greenleaf to respond, they must have felt a tug on their wallets. Regardless of their hasty denial of any responsibility, there they were, the whole batch of Gold Standard, and badly infected. Awfully hard for an inspector to have missed it, even at a casual glance. And I was not mistaken, btw if anybody wonders. They had the classic symptoms, pale veins with pronounced ink bleed and collapsed tissue, some of them on nearly every leaf.

I for sure now check every batch of hostas I look at to see where they come from, and because they were in close contact with the other hostas in that shipment, I'm going to give all Greenleaf hostas a pass. I am sure I will still buy shrubs and trees with their label, but not hostas!

And I have warned other nursery owners that I know to be sure and inspect their shipments of hostas from them, and if they look at all suspect, to exercise their right of refusal. Or give the hostas a pass altogether when they order.

Sure wish I had had a camera, but that was the day I even left my cell phone at home!

Sandy

Found this pictures of Ultramarine on Flickr for a user named Lavendargrrl I think. I have one, not sure if mine is uploaded or not. Ultramarine is a bit darker than what you might need, but it is a very nice neat plant.

I also like Teatime, a medium with a blue mid area and a yellow margin. I'm also very fond of Satisfaction, which has a blue-green center with the yellow margins. Very sturdy.

So sorry, I was on another thread about the Hosta Lady, then suddenly this is where the post went. We are having funky weather, and I have a FLY which keeps going full tilt into my touch-screen monitor, opening programs and changing things, so do you recon it it is THE FLY? Shivers!!!

I think is was a hosta brain fart. lol

I come sometimes to this forum to read. Naming Holland as the source of plants does NOT mean that you are more safe. Au contraire, it is Holland who flooded the whole Europe with virussed plants. Ordinary plant centers here in Denmark have no clue about plant diseases. I have seen many Cannas with virus, the staff does not pay attention if you say something. In the autumn two years ago one of the plant centers had a good bargain on peonies. They were cheap because they were barerooted. I bought some, and all of them were virussed . I'm sure it was done on purpose.

I was looking up the providers of hosta to the Dallas Arboretum. On AG3's (a liner producer of various plants) site, they say their hosta are "virus indexed and negative".

bkay

Hosta buyers unite. First don't buy from nurseries that carry infected hostas, AND that means don't buy anything -annuals, trees, shrubs etc and inform them in writing why you have stopped buying from them.

I did not know that Shady Oaks, Q& Z , Walters and Bentley Gardens are reliable wholesalers in the U.S. I'm Canadian but don't know who the reliable wholesalers are in my country. Inform the hosta infected retailer that if he buys his hostas from those reliable wholesalers, they will get your business back.

Second identify the reputable wholesalers and spread the word.

Third is there someone out there who knows the reputable hosta wholesalers who would be willing to draft a letter that could be sent, stating that you have stopped buying from them because you have found diseased hostas at their store and that you would buy from them again if they bought their plant material from the following wholesalers. You really have to love your hostas to do this.

Fourth the various hosta societies in the world should be involved in this. Could they not provide accreditation to retailers/nurseries that their hostas are HVX free.

Fifth, whenever I meet a novice hosta purchaser at these big box stores I try to educate them about HVX and direct them to buy their hostas elsewhere. They usually take my advice.

I'm joining my local hosta society and am going to activate for the above.

Update: got a call from the nursery owner today to let me know that the Greenleaf sales rep has picked up those Gold Standards and taken them back for testing. Glad to know they are actually listening and looking at the problem: of course the sales rep also has a dog in this fight. He doesn't want to be associated with selling diseased plants, and I don't blame him! They will keep me posted.

I will be very surprised if the tests come back something other than HVX. I'll be anxiously awaiting the results!
I hope they admit it!

Sandy

I don't know much about plants or gardening...I'm just learning. I personally buy from a local nursery and avoid the big box stores because I am committed to buying local products, and I can afford it.

That said, the local Home Depot is offering what, to me, the uneducated consumer, appear to be healthy potted hosta plants for $2.50 each. I forget the price at Walmart, but it was around $3, per pot. The local nursery where I bought my plants had hostas starting at $7.99 for the same size pots, and another nursery had hostas starting at $9.99.
I know nothing about the business or the economics involved. I have no idea what HVX is, or how to recognize it. But, in my humble opinion, you are going to have a VERY hard time convincing the average consumer to boycott stores offering what appears to be the same product at a third to a quarter of what they can purchase it for at the big box stores. If the local nurseries are to survive I would guess they are going to have to figure out a better way to stay competitive.

I am saying this because I love my local nurseries, dislike big box stores, and want the locals to thrive. Screaming "boycott" to try to convince the general population to spend four times as much for a product that looks the same because, in theory, one in twenty may be diseased, or may be mis-labelled is not the answer...few will listen.

Unless the plants at the big box stores are consistently diseased, and the average consumer can see that, most people will vote with their wallets. That's reality. You have to adapt, or live with it.

I have seen HVX infected hosta at Home Depot. I have never bought hosta from Walmart. I have found HVX infected hosta at two reputable nurseries where I live. One responded to the fact that they had an infected hosta, the other one didn't. I won't buy hostas from either one but I might buy something else from the nursery that responded and cared. Each nursery should be told why you will not buy hosta from them. The average hosta consumer will not boycott stores that sell infected plants because they are usually not collectors. Those who collect hostas should organize. There are more knowledgeable hosta growers on this forum than I, who have connections perhaps to gardening magazines, newspapers etc. to get the word out about HVX. I believe but am not certain that our best hosta retailers here in Canada get their produce from wholesalers in the States. In the end I believe that there are two types of consumer, the one who buys at the cheapest price he can get without regard to the consequences to society as a whole. The other consumer buys with a conscience. Every little bit each one of us can do to eradicte HVX will help, afterall each pearl begins with one tiny grain of sand.

Just to clarify: the hostas in question that started this discussion were NOT at HD or Walmart or any big box store. They were at an independent local nursery who orders plants from a giant wholesale operation. As do most of them.

The local independents, the people who depend on their community for a living, do very much care if they are sold diseased plants by a vendor they should be able to trust. Sometimes they don't know about HVX and would have no idea what to look for. My friend didn't. Hostas are not his focus, just something he orders because his customers want them and he needs them for landscapes. He knows now, and so does his staff.

Just keep a sharp eye out, if you see a problem don't be afraid to say hey, did you see this? Check the labels, if the plants come from a big wholesaler, complain to the company, it does get their attention. Whether they blow it off or not. (could cause them a very expensive recall if they admit a problem). I know they don't really want to sell bad plants, they rely on public trust to keep their bottom line solvent. They need the independents to buy from them. If we are all their watchdogs, maybe their quality control will improve.

And we shouldn't rely on the small nurseryman to be knowledgeable about HVX or other plant diseases. Sometimes they just sell what a sales rep tells them they need and what they have to buy to get a good price, or whatever the wholesale grower is having a special on. They trust the grower to deliver good stock and don't question it unless some sharp eye sees a problem. Small garden center owners are often not experts, they just sell pretty plants.

Sandy

Sandy

irawon stated: " In the end I believe that there are two types of consumer, the one who buys at the cheapest price he can get without regard to the consequences to society as a whole. The other consumer buys with a conscience."

I disagree with this. I think the vast majority of consumers want to buy at the cheapest price possible AND has a conscience. It's not so black and white. Everybody has a conscience and everybody wants to save money, so people have a hierarchy of priorities. They care to varying extents about human diseases, paying this month's mortgage, the war in Afghanistan, global warming, making their loved ones happy, whether Walmart is putting the local grocer out of business. My guess is that, for most consumers, hostas are very low on their list of priorities and they don't even associate the words "hosta" and "conscience"- they probably don't even know how to spell "hosta" (I didn't until a week ago *giggle*). Thus it will be very difficult to convince them to pay four times as much for a similar appearing plant. If even the small nurseryman doesn't know about HVX (as asserted by mosswitch), it can't be high on the consumer's list of ethical priorities.

If the serious hobbyists consist of a great proportion of hosta buyers, you may get through to them through the kind of activism suggested in this thread, and it may ultimately have an impact. On the other hand, if the vast majority of hosta buyers are just getting some pretty plants for their garden, they are going to vote with their wallets, because a threefold or fourfold difference in price is huge, and the nurseries will have to figure out a way to become more competitive (which may or may not be possible) or they will ultimately go the way of independent bookstores and video rental companies.

Would you buy a TV from your local store rather than Walmart if it cost $400 at Walmart but $410 at your local store? I think many people would vote with their conscience and say yes. But if it cost four times as much ($1600) at the local store, it would be a seriously tough conscience sell. This fourfold spread is, in fact, the case with hostas (at least where I live).

When a non-hosta nut has a question about a NOID they come to us. When they open the hosta forum they see half a page of threads titled "Is this HVX?". Anyone that is becoming serious about hosta will want to know what HVX is. We teach them, show them the way and for 9 out of 10 of them it means less people are buying hosta from a big box store or uninformed nursery.

They are now talking about HVX, have their eyes open and are informing others about it. It has to start somewhere and it starts with us. We might not be the average consumer but we are not going to be quiet about it or ignore it. Being that we are the ones that applaud the characteristics of hosta, it is our responsibility to get the word out against anyone that puts our collections at risk just for the sake of a buck.

Not all small nursery owners are ignorant of HVX, I didn't mean to imply that. But a lot of them are. The owner at the nursery where I saw the infected plants did not know about it. The garden center where I work part time did not when I started there. Of others I visited; two in Arkansas, one in Oklahoma and another in Missouri did not. Some others make
it a priority to learn plant diseases to better help their customers.

As informed consumers, we would be doing our sources a favor to make them aware of the problem if they are not, ask questions about where their plants come from, and ultimately we help ourselves by making them ask their vendors about the quality of the plants they are offering. Educating ourselves and being alert is half the battle.

Sandy

Strike two more for the "I don't care nurseryman". I just chased down the hosta supplier for Northhaven Gardens, one of the premier nurseries in town. That grower would be Green Leaf Nurseries. They don't know where their tissue cultures come from as they buy from several different sources. When I called Northhaven, they informed me they have to have "faith in their suppliers", but would look into it.

So, apparently I'm paying $12.99 for the same hosta at Northhaven that I'm buying at Lowe's for $4.99. It's not virus free either.

Also, it looks like the guy at Brumley Gardens, a neighborhood nursery, who told me that his plugs came from Walters and he grew them out himself may have exaggerated and is getting them from an unnamed local supplier.

So, what I've found is that no one cares about this issue except us.

bkay

Most major wholesale growers provide tags with their bareroot plants so you can find out where they come from. I know Walters does. They ship bareroot in February to nurseries so they can be potted up and grown on: not sure if Walters grows their own in this country or in Holland. Many major growers are there.

And bkay, you got it right: same plant at the big box stores and the garden centers. Difference in price being that the little guy pays more for the same plant so he has to charge more. He may only get 20 or 30 plants where the big box stores order thousands and get the big price breaks so they can keep the prices down. Also the big stores don't own the plants, it's all pay by scan. So yeah, they don't care. They have no investment.

Sandy

I was at one of my favorite local nurseries today and found a very obviously infected Blue Cadet. I took the plant to the sales person, who called over one of the managers, and I explained how it was virused and what HVX is. The manager, who actually knows a lot about plants and is interested in them, had never heard of HVX. He immediately pulled all the plants from that same supplier off the shelf and pulled his other managers over to explain that they were virused. He also told me that he'd google it to learn more and he would be contacting the grower that he obtained the plants from.

Like others have said, we can absolutely make an impact in stopping or slowing the spread of this disease by educating nursery owners and managers. We need to speak up instead of just shaking our heads as we walk by a bunch of diseased plants for sale.

Great catch, way to go!

Sandy

There used to be a HVX Brochure that you could download and print from the AHS website. It explained what HVX was, and why it is a problem, and how to deal with it. I think there were some photos too. I made a few copies and would leave them with the manager of any nursery I visited with virused plants. I cannot find a link to that anymore.

At least with the American Hosta Society name on it, and internet links given, you have something factual to back up what you see on the plants, and that you are not just some nut case trying to cause them trouble. I was happy to use that sheet when a nursery worker told me that "Our customers like the spotted ones. We sell a lot of that variety".

Wine helps.

-Babka

It's called HVX Research Summary Report - June 2010. It's on the page I linked below.

Steve

Here is a link that might be useful: HVX Research Summary Report - June 2010

YES, Steve!!!! That is the very one. Everyone should print it and keep a bunch in their glove boxes just in case. Thanks a bunch!

-Babka

Sandy, I would not have high hopes about Greenleaf's testing of the hosta. Their plants, their lab, their ballpark. Except that the product is perishable, it could be shipped again elsewhere.

Only, I am pessimistic enough about big business and big corporations to feel that the rep who picked them up dropped them in the trash and will get someone in the lab to fix up a dummy report, sight unseen. You are a temporary inconvenience to them, and I bet they have an approved method of dealing with types like you. (roll eyes)

Yeah, activists like us are just like the environmental activists and get about the same amount of respect because what we want them to do is BAD FOR THEIR BOTTOM LINE ON THE SHORT TERM. It is the short term that they care about. This month, this quarter, not their reputation for sure since they can control that with some good publicity and crossing official palms with the OTHER green stuff.

(oops here comes that pesky computer fly again. or is it one of those tiny drones?.....just because I'm paranoid does not mean they are not out to get me.) :)

Well, I have no blinders on as far as Greenleaf testing and being honest about their report. If the testing comes back positive for HVX they should recall the whole crop of Gold Standards and they won't want to do that.
But I do know the rep pretty well. Enough to really get on his case about it if the answers I get are not sufficient. He knows that as former nursery owners we still know a lot of people in the industry and we can spread the word.

I just wish I had been able to take pictures. If there are still any of them at the nursery where I found them I might still be able to. I'm going to check. They did pull them out of the sales area.

Sandy