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Guns make us less safe.

Posted by brushworks Zone5-Ohio (My Page) on
Thu, Jan 24, 13 at 7:07

At least that is what I hear from some liberals and their mouthpiece.

However, a Fontana, CA school disagrees. They are equipped to hold back a Taliban insurgent force. Well, maybe.

Oh, by the way, I disagree with this school district's decision to arm their militia. Notice how the description changes from assault rifles to semi-automatic rifles when schools purchase them.

Will we see students trained to use weapons? You know, class guardsman and such.

Here is a link that might be useful: Assaulted by an armory.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Do they come with bayonets?


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Thu, Jan 24, 13 at 7:41

Not to worry, the security guards got 40 hours of training ... what could possibly go wrong?

I am thankful my children/grandchildren are no longer in school, because frankly I personally would pull them out of any school "armed to the teeth with semi automatic weapons".

1/2 penny
Off to work


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Thu, Jan 24, 13 at 7:50

One quick comment then I am off ... who is going to protect the children at home?

Yesterday a 4 year old shot and killed himself with daddy's gun while riding in dad's car ... second young child in a week in this area.

More guns more guns more guns!!!


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

brushworks, "Retarded!"
Is the only term to describe the mentality of the people who have come up with this idea.
Now the student(s) with malevolent intentions can figure a way to access the armaments and...
They dont have to bring the (expletive deleted) gun into the school!!!.
Now they have created a magnet and challenge for the nefarious to get their hands on some armament; to wreak havoc in the school or elsewhere.
I expect this type of mentality will give a key to the armoury to some responsible individual, like the Principal; endangering her or his life - additionally.
And how many "responsible individuals" like principals have behaved irresponsibly lately?
If you answer even 'one', I will consider my point made.
Now that my adrenalin level is adequately primed, I will go and do some gardening.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Yeh, love tha way they are called " high powered" weapons! They are .22 calber on a AR platform, hardly high powered?? The anti gun crowd certainly is good at proliferating mis inormation to further their agenda.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

So a low-powered .22 isn't capable of killing? That's a huge relief...but why would they make them? For shooting paper targets?


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Home of the Fontana Drag Strip race track.

This is a perfect example of the two Californias - the more prosperous and populated liberal coast and the relatively poorer and less populated conservative interior.

Fontana is located in the interior region.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

just more snobbery and class division from the left.
Paper targets, reactive targets, all good. Of course pellets guns are deadly also when mis used.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Nahhhh, we are just learning from the ragheads on how to organize society around armed militias. We cannot feel safe until every school, government building, post office, and larger business enterprise is locked and loaded, defending against those random nuts looking to commit suicide after doing as much damage as possible.

Of course there are car bombs in our future, if we want to keep up with this sort of mentality.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Well, then we wall off the neighborhoods, put in iris scans for ID like we did in Baghdad.

/Profit in them thar eyeball scans.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Of course, if any dissenting groups rise up, they will have to arm themselves (in self-defense) against the ones who already have guns but opposing viewpoints.

We will have to start drawing battle lines--one armed camp on one side, the other armed camp on the other side.

Oh, but surely there is something we could "lob" into the other's territory without technically crossing the battle line ourselves.

Kate


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Of course, if any dissenting groups rise up, they will have to arm themselves

Not the CA coastal liberal/progressives; we'll bore them to death with our endless yammering about consensus. If that doesn't work, there's always a screenwriter who is eager to talk about his/her latest project.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Nancy,,,LOL!

Enjoying the rain there in Venice?


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Enjoying the rain there

Very much!

Did you notice I spared you embarrassment by not including lectures on organic growing and integrated pest management in my bore-them-to-death strategy?


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

  • Posted by kwoods Cold z7 Long Is (My Page) on
    Thu, Jan 24, 13 at 13:26

"Of course pellets guns are deadly also when mis used."

Wow... even small caliber weapons are far more deadly than I had imagined... sounds like we should have strict regulations, oversight and enforcement.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

A cop near my home town killed his wife and himself and wounded his son two days ago.

Big news around here anyway...the biggest gun show east of the Mississippi was cancelled today because vendors were dropping out in protest of the banning of automatic weapons from the show. This cost the Harrisburg area 42 million dollars, supposedly. Boo hoo. The gun nuts will have to find another show to attend.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Security guard accidentally shoots penis off with illegal gun

Although shocking, accidental penis shooting accidents are not uncommon, and incidents were recorded in Florida, Arizona and Washington in 2012.

Be safe, Bill :)

Here is a link that might be useful: Evolutionary advantage


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Jon, how droll!

Nancy, I commend your humanity.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Unbiased research can contribute to gun debate

The Sun Journal
Lewiston, Maine
"As critics begin dissecting the Obama administration's ideas on gun control, one refrain is certain to surface: There is no research connecting problem A, say how many gun show guns end up in the hands of felons, to solution B, say requiring background checks for gun show sales.

The reason there is so little research on so many of these connections leads to a truly bizarre and little-known bit of congressional craziness.

Before about 1990, research on issues like the connection between mental health and gun violence was at a high point.

The Center for Injury Prevention and Control and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention regularly funded research on gun violence.

But the National Rifle Association began to see that government-sponsored research wasn't reaching the conclusions the NRA wanted to hear.

One specific study really aggravated the NRA.

It found that having a gun in a home resulted in greater danger to a family than it provided in actual safety. In other words, guns in the house more often resulted in accidental and intentional family deaths than the protection of the inhabitants.

This was calculated by simply counting up the accidents and deaths and sorting them into various categories.

Those results seemed to provide good gun consumer information but they also ran directly counter to the interests of gun makers and the NRA, which was to convince consumers they needed guns for protection.

The NRA's response to that wasn't to refute the information or do its own research.

No, it decided a better path would be to make sure such research was never done again.

In 1996, all money for the Centers for Disease Control and the National Institutes of Health for gun research was sliced from their budgets.

To make its intent perfectly clear, Congress ordered that no funds could be used in any research that might be used to "advocate or promote" gun control.

In 2009, the National Institutes of Health crossed the NRA by funding a study that found a person carrying a gun was 4.5 times more likely to be shot in an assault as an unarmed person.

Again, that could be useful information to a person thinking of carrying a gun for safety.

And, again, it contradicted the NRA orthodoxy that we will all be safer when we all carry guns.

In 2011, Congress extended the same ban on government-funded research to the NIH.

So today the CDC still keeps track of how many people are killed (about 31,000 per year in the U.S.) or injured by guns, but it no longer tries to figure out why or what can be done to prevent gun mayhem.

In fact, trend lines show that by 2015 gun deaths will exceed automobile fatalities.

The Washington Post recently reported that even Obamacare contains a provision prohibiting health care workers from collecting data on guns in homes and using it for research.

We now have a 15-year gap in federally funded research that we could be using to formulate answers to tragedies such as the one in Newtown, Conn.

Think of the way government research has improved the safety of everything from coal mines to airlines.

So, when we talk about the lack of basic research on gun ownership and safety in the upcoming debate, we will have the NRA to thank for that."

End quote.

And we know how biased and librul the CDC and NIH are. I mean, look at the research they did on viruses and cancer and lead and asbestos and so on. Against industry, they are.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Jon, thats natural selection at its finest!


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Yes, it is important for readers to understand that government agencies are only allowed to do gun violence research if it supports the NRA viewpoint and agenda. That is the law!

Don't know about you, but I was shocked when I discovered that due to NRA influence on Congress, Congress had passed a law, years ago, that all gun research must support the NRA position.

I guess freedom of speech isn't allowed in the U.S. government because it might endanger freedom to pack.

Is something off-kilter here?

Kate


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These efforts to muzzle research by gun-interests are deplorable. What next? No more Federal funding of gynecological research because such research might assist in birth control?


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

marshallz10 wrote,

What next? No more Federal funding of gynecological research because such research might assist in birth control?

...and you get more of what you subsidize.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Security guard accidentally shoots penis off with illegal gun

And we are to be comforted knowing that those packing heat are our protection against a mad gunner massacring all of us?

Then why don't I feel any safer?

Kate


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

The NRA is experiencing a widening fissure within its ranks that has been there for years but was carefully hushed. The majority of the NRA members are average American sportsmen and -women from all occupations, nationalities and religions who simply like to hunt and want an organization that protects their hunting rights.

The NRA leaders, on the other hand, are basically right-wing political operatives who have hijacked the organization to push an extreme right-wing agenda that often has little to do with gun ownership. Yes, the NRA leaders support hunting rights, but they also support an array of right-wing policies that, at times, are diametrically opposed to the interests of hunters. NRA leaders support various reckless mining and extraction policies promoted by the big energy companies and the likes of the Koch brothers�"those who despoil the very environment hunters want to protect so their children and grandchildren can enjoy the right to hunt on pristine lands. The current president of the NRA, David Keene, for example, is a University of Wisconsin graduate who does not come out of the sportsman/hunting world, but instead has been a highly paid conservative political operative for the past 45 years. He was chair of such extreme right-wing groups as the Young Americans for Freedom and the American Conservative Union.

-Ron-


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

The day of the NRA using most of it energires and resources for mainly hunting are long gone. The NRA has been forced by the extremest liberal Democrat anti gun forces to use much of its enerigies to protect the rights of gun owners. If it werent for the NRA, there would have been numerous gun bans beginning years ago. 1st it was saturday night specials??, then handguns, then sniper rifles? then 5o cal rifles and now the modern sporting rifles. Who knows what tomorrow may bring, but we do know they will not stop at anything to end the rights of American citizens.
Ansd of course, if so many sportsmen were in conflict with the principles of the NRA, over 5,000 per day would not be sending in their dues.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

"modern sporting rifles"

Growing up, "sportsmen" meant hunters.

Not people who like to blow several hundred rounds of ammo at targets in some new shooting competitions. That was called "target shooting".

Distinctly different than Sportsmen, and sportsmen would look down on target shooters because hunting and target shooting weren't even close.


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Yes, like the difference between road races and tailgate parties admiring souped up cars.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Yes, like the difference between road races and tailgate parties admiring souped up cars.

IMHO it is the difference between playing video games and living outside in reality.

Or talking about going over to talk to that woman and actually getting her phone number. Or calling a tow truck and fixing it yourself. That sort of thing.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Not exactly. Gun users fire off their weapons but the purposes and ethos are different. The purpose of the hunt is not to fire off the weapon just for the fun of it. Also, for the hunter, the goal is to eat what you shoot more often than not. Don't hear much about target shooters eating their targets.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Hey Joe Biden said today to protect yourself get a shotgun...
Way to go Joe!!!


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

brightonborn wrote,

Hey Joe Biden said today to protect yourself get a shotgun...

Do you mean he said that as a general recommendation to everyone, or specifically in the case of a terrible natural disaster as the last line of defense, and specifically as opposed to having an assault rifle?


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Not exactly. Gun users fire off their weapons but the purposes and ethos are different

Right. I was extending the metaphor David started, caricaturizing a bit.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

brighton, you don't hear so well, do you! Biden was NOT recommending that people in general should get a shotgun. He was addressing someone who would argue that he wants/needs an assault rifle and telling him a shotgun would be more effective so don't bother to buy the assault rifle.

Comes out a bit different when you add in the other words he said, doesn't it. That is called "context"--very important if you care to convey ACCURATELY what someone was saying.

Kate


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Posted by david52 z5CO (My Page) on Fri, Jan 25, 13 at 11:39

"modern sporting rifles"
Growing up, "sportsmen" meant hunters."

You mean while you were growing up. Just how old are you, David? Target shooting has been a sporting event at the Olympics since 1896, if the info in the link below is correct. That would make target shooting a sport. For that matter, any shooting usually involves a target (paper, clay, animal, etc). This would make a target shooting man a "sportsman".

"Not people who like to blow several hundred rounds of ammo at targets in some new shooting competitions. That was called "target shooting". Distinctly different than Sportsmen, and sportsmen would look down on target shooters because hunting and target shooting weren't even close."

Several hundred rounds? Each shooter? What did they have, machine guns? Surely you are exaggerating. I can't imagine the construction of those targets to withstand that kind of abuse.

Just sayin'.

Here is a link that might be useful: olympic Shooting


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Old Joe, braying again; but like a hinny, the meaning is lost .
Of course, a dbl bbl shotgun is a terrible choice for home defense for mutiple reasons.
I enjoy target shooting much more than hunting. developing a round which can perform to the very best in each individual arm gives great satisfaction and animals dont need to die. But if one enjoys hunting, targets in their various applications assure a better, more humane shot afield.


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Several hundred rounds? Each shooter? What did they have, machine guns? Surely you are exaggerating. I can't imagine the construction of those targets to withstand that kind of abuse.

Then why then do these "sportsmen" need magazines with 30+ rounds, and call them "modern sporting guns" as the NRA claims? The reason they *need* these high capacity magazines is because of these 'sporting events' - they tell us.

There is no competition at the Olympics with these so called "sporting guns" with semi-automatic actions and extended magazines. They have, as you rightly state, "target shooting". Target shooters shoot targets. With bolt action rifles or air guns.

Sportsmen hunt. Justification for these military style semi-automatic weapons with extended magazines under the banner of "sporting guns" is nonsense.

Of course, a dbl bbl shotgun is a terrible choice for home defense for mutiple reasons

Oh? Thats not at all what the personal defense people on all those TV gun shows say. They highly recommend shotguns. Thats the basis of "The Judge" which - as you know is a pistol 410, and widely sold as a personal defense weapon.

Can you list a few of the reasons a shotgun isn't a good home defense weapon? I can think of a few reasons they work pretty well -

- they're really loud - fire one of those and everybody around knows you're shooting something.

- hit somebody at 10-20 feet with a load of shot - let alone something like BB's or AAA - is going to do them serious harm.

- The smaller shot won't go through walls and onto the next house, unlike these rounds from, say, a .223 rifle

- the shot spreads quickly so you don't have to be all that accurate

and so on. Now I would agree that if you're in fear of a home invasion of a dozen bad guys at once, you might want a pump or something that would hold a few more rounds.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Good answers, David, IMO. You used the term 'semi-automatic". How many rounds would you consider reasonable for target practice and/or hunting? 5? We have to start somewhere.

Just FYI, semi-automatics are used in this Olympic event:

"Rapid Fire Pistol
The rules of this event have done some heavy-duty changing over the years, including some drastic changes which took place prior to World War II. The rules were again overhauled in 1989 and 2005, reducing the average attainable score and necessitating the establishment of pre- and post-2005 world records.

Five-shot strings are fired from a 22-caliber pistol in time periods of 4, 6, and 8 seconds each, and each late shot counts as a miss. Upon presentation of the targets, the shooter must raise his or her arm from a 45-degree angle and fire the string before time runs out."

Just so you know...

Here is a link that might be useful: Semi-automatics at the Olympics


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

david52 wrote,

>Of course, a dbl bbl shotgun is a terrible choice for home defense for mutiple reasons

Oh? Thats not at all what the personal defense people on all those TV gun shows say. They highly recommend shotguns.

While shotguns in general are good choices for home-defense firearms, double-barreled shotguns are a poor choice due to their limitation of only being able to fire two shots before requiring reloading, which is generally not the fastest process.

This post was edited by Factotem on Fri, Jan 25, 13 at 21:33


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

semi autos are used in many areas of hunting. Have been for years. There are a whole bunch of shooting events where the modern sprts rifles are used, 3 gun events for just one. I like using 25 round mags because I fire 5 shot groups, reloading isnt needed as often, tes, 10 rounders 2would suffice (for me).But as we all know, give em 10, they're gonna want 10 more.
We usually take a pad of targets when we shoot, tape or otherwise mark holes and keep shooting. Rapid fire may ruin a target??

I would say a good quality pump shotgun tricked out for home defense would be my choice,I prefer buck shot(9 .32 caliber round balls come out the business end) for some reasons youve suggested. Tho most 223 rounds wont penetrate most walls unless maybe ball ammo is used? Defensive rounds, usually some type of hollow point, are designed to expand quickly so as to not penetrate and cause collateral damage. They also should cause more trauma, downing the bad guy with fewer rounds required to exit the muzzle.
Most double bbl guns have barrels too long to be useful as defensive weapons and stocks(combs) arent designed to be moved well for defense in small quuarters. having only 1 or 2 shots could be very undesirable if the perp(s) dont go down immediatly. Dbl BBls also may confuse the operater due to the double trigger, or the single trigger selection process.
Ya know, there are more of these so called assualy weapons used for varminting, deer, hog and other game hunting than the average joe realizes. They function exactly the same as 100s of other sporting arms. Banning something due to its physical appearance is just plain stupid. The vast amjority of these types of rifles are used responsibly.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Sorry, I just can't picture Biden as Omar in "The Wire", but a shotgun certainly is intimidating. (If you need to protect against a crew of intruders, you're probably too late with whatever you have in your hand. They aren't going to stand in front of you in their 'criminal costumes', daring you to shoot.)


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

I predict that there will be even weirder "arm up!" stories about community decisions coming out in the future.

And more defensive arguments for why its still a good idea to arm up schools this way even when horror stories take place in these armed up schools.

Sometimes I feel like I'm living in the twilight zone when hear these garbage stories concerning the way some people insist about what it takes to protect our school kids.

Amerika, land of the free, home of the really REALLY brave!

It sickens me. How disappointed will these nuts be when none of that expensive garbage is ever needed. Or, they get all defensive about a mistaken act and needlessly kill one or a few people?

"Well, they sure did ACT kinda guilty, slinking around the halls those hoodies and carrying around those paper bags full of skittles........ so its THEIR fault I shot them...especially after one of them tried to jump me when they saw my gun"!

And then this forum will five 150 thread debates about why or why not the dead kids really were just asking to be shot.
After all, they WERE wearing hoodies and moving with a guilty body language, the guard had every right to defend himself when a kid jumped him....after the kid saw the gun drawn!


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

So I think we're agreeing that a shotgun is a preferred weapon for home defense, but question the double-barreled model, preferring a semi-automatic or pump. Certainly better than a rifle shooting .223 or higher.

However, one could argue that if you fire a shot gun twice in your house and miss somebody in the same room, maybe you need some more training. And speaking personally, if I were a burglar or home invader and somebody was shooting at me with a shot gun, twice, I'd be headed the other way in a hurry. But then I'm not part of the Zombie apocalypse.

As for the nomenclatures of activities, this quote from Senator Udall was in this mornings Denver Post -

"We're a Second-Amendment state. I support the rights of sportsmen and target shooters and collectors to own firearms. It's an important part of our culture and tradition," Sen. Mark Udall, D-Colo., said in an interview.

Maybe its a western thing. Target shooters are not the same as sportsmen, who are hunters.

This post was edited by david52 on Sat, Jan 26, 13 at 12:10


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

"Of course, a dbl bbl shotgun is a terrible choice for home defense for mutiple reasons."

Have you ever met a home defense person? They do NOT recommend semi-autos because of the jamming possibilities. From the website below,
"A double-barrel shotgun has been the defensive firearm of choice for generations," I thought everyone who knew anything about home defense knew that a double was good because there are less moving parts.

Here is a link that might be useful: Double barrels for home defense


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Interesting that Senator Mark Udall from Colorado did not mention guns for home protection (or self-protection, I guess also). I tend to find that those who are obsessed with the protection angle are a completely different crew--they feel vulnerable and paranoid about the "marauders" who will suddenly descend without warning on their homestead and devastate everything in sight if the homeowner can't hold them off with his stored arsenal. Of course, that has never happened to that gun-owner or to anyone they know, but they have this nagging fear that someday (come apocalypse?) that will happen. In the meantime, every thief in town is obviously targetting their house and intent on shooting them--although most thieves aren't armed and run like crazy if they arouse attention from anyone in the vicinity. But who knows--they just might wipe out the whole family so that they can steal the house valuables without witnesses. The fact that thieves target empty houses, not houses filled with family members, is not relevant, is it!

Ya know--those types. The ones that posture a lot like they are the hero of a Hollywood movie -- which I sometimes think they honestly believe is reality--or is it that they WISH it were reality? Cuz then life would be so much more exciting and intense--change from everyday humdrum reality that doesn't provide any decent reason for whipping out those wonderful guns that make the owner feel all-powerful!

Ya know--that group. They are definitely different from the hunter group. And slightly off their rockers, in my private opinion.

Kate


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

well, again, we could debate just what type gun, or ammo, or whatever is potentially the best defensive weaponry. but there are way to many variables to discuss here. As I said, a pump shotgun, or a revolver is probably my choice. You could argue that a semi is more prone to difficulties but its treally a poor argument. I cant remember a misfire in any ever; based on proper cleaning, maintenance and choices of ammunition. Having one of good quality is also an issue.
its just too bad the anti crowd isnt interested in educating themselves of what they are trying to debate. That could save a whole lot of mis interpretation about the gun issues.
Yes, Ive seen the nut balls who like to strut around and be loud mouths spewing their bull. They dont frighten me tho, cause mostly they are wat they sound like, loud mouth idiots who would never show up for a gun fight.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

I would be willing to bet there are more "gun people" that would agree with my side, ie. the double barrel, than the people who go semi-auto for home defense.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Next time I'm looking to buy a work truck, I need to follow the fancifowl's system to evaluate the vehicle if he'd only share what the too many variables to discuss might be. Since we are so ignornant, we ought not to have much of a say about who owns and uses what guns, when and where. Leave it to the experts. Just remember to arm up the whazoo, just in case.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

If you are stck on a dbl bbl, thats your choice. I would offer a ton of support for other weapons but you can find em all just by looking.

what tasks will you need the truck for marsall, a large truck or small, a 4x4 or 2x4. short bed or long, or flat. Same principles apply. Buy what will serve your particular needs, I would guess?
To assist your decisions on gun purchases I might suggest reading several of the thousands of articles written by experts in their fields. Massad Ayoob was an prolific writer of articles re: the use of defensive weaponry. There are others.
My preference is to have a specific tool for each job be it paper punching, home defense, self defense, deer, bear or woodchuck hunting. a mountain to mountain .50 caliber is a poor choice for home defense, as a 3 inch SP101 in .357 is a poor choice for deer hunting.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

And the use for a high capacity magazine, 30+ rounds, semi-automatic weapon is what, other than some recently made up form of target shooting?


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

brighton, you don't hear so well, do you!

My hearing aid batteries were down...just hate when that happens , don't U ?


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Well, I must give you credit, brighton--laid-back and humorous. (Even if I dont' agree with your politics.)

: )

Kate


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

I could live with 10 round mags for the most part. But I'll hang on to the 25s I have for persoanl weapons. All the rest are being sold. BUT, the problem remains. We grant the antis their desire for 25 round, they will want 20, then 15 then 10. Ya see, we know what will satisfy them, no guns period. no body is buying intpo the we dont want yer hunting guns because they have proved it over and over and over. If I really believed the grab would stop at reasonable and common sense, I would ban hi cap mags for all weapons. sadly, I know better.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

I'm liberal... and I want to know how you figure that guns make us less safe. In the wrong hands, they might... but I think in order to prove something like that, one needs to specify exactly the gun and the situation that makes a person less safe.

I think we need to bring the fact to the table that a whole lot of the anti-gun crowd have never touched a gun, let alone fired one or taken a gun safety class. Without the personal experience to draw from, it's nothing more than an opinion born of the opinions of others with the same experience...

And that's my take on it. I feel very safe from the animals, and people, who would do me wrong.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Without the personal experience to draw from, it's nothing more than an opinion born of the opinions of others with the same experience...

I don't think that's a valid statement; following the above example, no anti-war critic without military experience would have a voice to protest military adverturism.

Disclosure: I did a little target shooting years ago.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

"no body is buying intpo the we dont want yer hunting guns because they have proved it over and over and over. If I really believed the grab would stop at reasonable and common sense, I would ban hi cap mags for all weapons. sadly, I know better."

I guess I just don't know how the anti-gun people have proved it "over and over" that they are trying to incrementally take all of my guns away.

I do believe that your proposal was reasonable (10 shot mags).


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

The head of the NRA David Keen's son shot a man in 2002 in a road rage incident and spent ten years in jail.

FF, what type of gun do you use to shoot your neighbor's cats?


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Disclosure: trained marksman.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

So if I'm not mistaken, just about everybody supports universal back ground checks and limits on magazine capacity.

But some people won't support these measures because they are convinced that this will lead to total confiscation.

Kind of like thinking that speed limits and seat belts are a good idea, but won't agree to support these laws because its the first step in confiscating our cars.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

well Frank, I've been following the debate for years. Look back at all of the differnt banners over the years and the weapons they have wanted to ban. I think I ran thru several somewhere? And the blanket statement by those who would ban all guns. You have to know, they will not stop at 1 class of weapon.There will always be something else that doesnt come up to their iodea of a safe gun for law abicding people to own.
Lily,thanks for your interest, I use a .50 BMG on the cats, but only when I am depleted of the 40mm for the M79. So what re: Keenes son? I hope he's in jail. But is it ok that Carl Rowan shot a kid swimming in his pool, just after he came out for a total ban on guns?


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

That was a while back, FF. Ironic, wasn't it?

Here is a link that might be useful: 1988: Gun Control Advocate Shoots Teen


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Fear is what propagates the "readiness" thinking of preparing for a response to anticipated mayhem in our homes or on the streets or in populated areas. This is conditioned by the immediate and saturating knowledge of any instance of aggression or dissonance that occurs with in our world of knowledge. This instant knowledge makes it personal to us as the news sources thrive and profit by spreading the abnormal, dehumanizing sensational stories that will get their ratings up. The fear feeds on itself, mothers cry for the loss of their child or their friends child down the street and we hear very little about the deaths that are not as sensational but add up day after day mostly caused by the fear at the heart of the whole misbegotten race to defend ourselves from the fear.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

But Elvis, they are not hypocryts, they are lefties!

Fear isd not the lone motivater, preparedness is a strategy. Its like having a generator for when the power is out, food for a storm, or xtra gas just in case. Some people have will, some people , well, ya know, they depend on the government for their survival.
I guess I should post a daily' Gun save a life" thread?? If this crap keeps up, I will.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

"Fear is what propagates the "readiness" thinking of preparing for a response to anticipated mayhem in our homes or on the streets or in populated areas."

Maybe it's fear. Maybe be it's a proactive stance.

This statement: "This is conditioned by the immediate and saturating knowledge of any instance of aggression or dissonance that occurs with in our world of knowledge. This instant knowledge makes it personal to us as the news sources thrive and profit by spreading the abnormal, dehumanizing sensational stories that will get their ratings up. The fear feeds on itself..." says to me that this hysteria is on all sides of the gun issue.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

What DH and I have for protection is a Ruger SR9 simi automatic. DH had me hold many until I found the one I felt best about, it operates very similarly to the Smith and Wesson the Ruger replaced, which was old and over the years had been practiced with so often that I was no longer sure it was completely safe, it was easily 35+ years old.
The Ruger doesn't require any thinking once the cartridge in in and its been pulled back once, this is exactly why I felt comfortable and had confidence with the Smith and Wesson and why I feel confident with the Ruger.
I take it out and shoot several rounds with it about four times a year, I'm a naturally decent shot. I don't like to do it but there would not be a purpose to having it for my use if I didn't handle it several times a year, then it is cleaned and put back in a decorative basket with a lid which rests on top, on the high shelf (that I can still easily reach) of my ceiling to floor flanking bookcases in our bedroom.

I do feel more comfortable having it as I have often stated. I have spent in time probably a total of four plus years of our married life living alone with my children due to his time spent out of state or out of country due to his military career until retirement and now this one, until he retires again and for good.

If I had not gone through the very real terror all those years ago of the two men attempting to break in, with my overwhelming responsibility to protect my very young child, I would not have ever wanted a gun for protection. I didn't grow up in a home with a gun in the home. That beak in attempt and my fear for my child's safety was a defining moment in my life, I never wanted to feel so helpless and powerless to protect my loved ones ever again.

But I have re-thought my position. The gun will always stay in our home because all the firearms belong to my husband.

But I no longer FEEL it necessary to have the gun to feel safe. I have gone my entire life without having been physically harmed, my life is the the very example of how unnecessary it is for me to feel frightened of some slight "possibility".
One single instance of fear in almost forty years of independent living does not create a need for a gun for home defense.

When those drunk airmen who tried to break in and scared me so badly, it was not a gun that stopped them, it was all the hollering they were doing which alerted the neighbors who phoned the base police, who were there within less than two minutes to haul them away ( and they were dishonorably discharged) - so the gun I did NOT, by choice, have available to me at the time would have been of no use anyway.
After that, we did have the Smith and Wesson, it was not assembled and ready to go for decades, due to children in the home - different parts were *locked* away in different places, at my insistence - but I was oddly comforted to have it and know it was there to try to get at quickly if the need arose.

The world is a different place. I no longer think that the general public is restrained enough in anger or impulse control which justifies all the great masses of weapons so easily available to EVERYONE in the vast numbers of homes in this country.
In my opinion, it would be a much safer country if all the home protection Rugers etc were not considered such a normal and accepted part of items to be found in any given home. Too many people all across this country are dying or are horribly wounded due to being shot, for whatever reason the gun goes off.

I would give up that handgun (which really does provide me a feeling of safety) in a second if the common attitude regarding gun ownership altered enough to save some lives. I would give it up anyway if it was mine to get rid of. My life has taught me that I have no rational reason to live with any fear because nothing hurtful has ever happened to me

A lot of people have died.....children...because my right to that handgun is so valued an idea.
Innocents die in order for me to have a gun I have never needed and most likely will never need. There is something wrong with this picture.

Its everyone BUT us gun owners who are doing the physical sacrificing which is the cost of the mass gun ownership.

Why are these horrible injuries/deaths considered an acceptable price to pay in order for every firearm owner in this forum and country to enjoy the mass and varied ownership that we do?

We aren't the ones being shot, they are.

This single point is one which really bothers me a great deal, and one of the reasons I have re-thought my position on common gun ownership by the average citizen.

All, my opinion only


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

The head of the NRA David Keen's son shot a man in 2002 in a road rage incident and spent ten years in jail.

And a guy on Biden's gun squad has a son that was arrested for planning and attempting to commit a mass school shooting. Now what?


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

if my neighbors cat is loose I just use live animal trap either give it to him or animal control. since county law makes illegal for cats to roam. but the neighborhood fox usually kills any strays. so unless stray start causing damage I don't bother.
though do know some good recipes for cooking cat I found on internet.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

The kid who killed five members of his family, his mother in the face , his brother, and two little sisters and then waited and blew away his father, a preacher, when he came home was going to go to the local Walmart and kill as many people as he could before he was killed by the police. He stopped by his church after murdering his whole family and when he posted pictures on his phone and told conflicting stories, the minister got suspicious and confronted the boy. Another massacre was prevented ,and he used the same weapon as Lanza did.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

A masked gunman who collapsed and died after being disarmed and pinned down by customers in a betting shop, was last night named as ...

Guns don't kill - people do :)

Best wishes
Jon

Here is a link that might be useful: Robber killed in bookie raid


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Now if Mr. Levers lived here in the states, his family would be searching the British equivalent of the Yellow Pages for lawyers to initiate a wrongful death lawsuit.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Jodik: "I'm liberal... and I want to know how you figure that guns make us less safe. In the wrong hands, they might... but I think in order to prove something like that, one needs to specify exactly the gun and the situation that makes a person less safe. "

David: [The NIH study] found that having a gun in a home resulted in greater danger to a family than it provided in actual safety. In other words, guns in the house more often resulted in accidental and intentional family deaths than the protection of the inhabitants.

This, Jodi. This is why I'm more comfortable not having a gun in the house than having one. Simple statistics that I for one don't feel like trying to defy.

This post was edited by circuspeanut on Sun, Jan 27, 13 at 10:21


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Bill, what is Biden's gun squad? I'm hoping that is the Secret Service detail assigned to him, then I can exclaim what at dumb-ass attempt at equivalency you made.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

"A masked gunman who collapsed and died after being disarmed and pinned down by customers in a betting shop, was last night named as ..."

Obviously, we need to ban betting shops. Betting shops kill. :-)


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Nope


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Nope what? and for whom?


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

We could just all go away and let Bill and FF spend their days talking about guns. This must be the gazillionth thread on guns and frankly, I'm getting bored. Their views will never change and neither will ours. More people are coming to our side though, and the more mass massacres that happen,change will come .


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Why would bill be timid in responding to marshall? Surely he was making a reference to the 12 Democratic congress people who make up Biden's task force on gun violence. Included in the 12 is Rep. Jackie Speier who barely survived the fact finding trip to Jonestown that killed Cong. Leo Ryan.

Nothing like throwing something out there then acting coy.

This post was edited by duluthinbloomz4 on Sun, Jan 27, 13 at 12:10


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

This must be the gazillionth thread on guns and frankly, I'm getting bored.

I agree.

More people are coming to our side though

A few weeks ago, I would've agreed. But now that people are getting past the knee jerk reaction, not so much. You need to rally the troops!! Hope for more mass shootings!


Nope what? and for whom?

Nope not secret service. for you. the gun squad. I'm sorry-- let me put that in terms a progressive can understand. the GUN CONTROL TASK FORCE. That sounds more importanter.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

President Obama isn't attempting to ban target shooting guns or target shooting sport. He participates in target shooting/skeet shooting when at Camp David.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

I think that was very cruel comment , Bill, that I should hope for more mass killings to prove my point. I have never gotten out of my mind those 20 little faces of the slaughtered children in Newtown. They were making gingerbread houses, excited about Xmas when their bodies were ripped apart with up to eleven bullets per child. Limbs ripped off, faces too. One minute these kids were sweet innocents and the next, slaughtered. How dare you think I'd ever wish this even on my worse enemy let along dear little kids and their teachers. I wonder what your thoughts would be if one of those precious kids was your child or grandchild.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

An Open Letter From Sheriff Kenney Boone Regarding Gun Control

In the past several weeks I have been asked repeatedly whether my office would cooperate with the federal government to confiscate firearms from the citizens of Florence County if ordered to do so.

Like every citizen of the United States, we are watching the debate on how to stop the horrific acts of violence by a few deranged individuals against our most vulnerable. The heartbreaking images of innocent children murdered on such a scale are beyond horrifying, and we as a society must try to find a solution to stop this senseless violence.

Rhetoric on both side of the political spectrum is both understandable and predictable. How the discussion will play out is unknown at this time. What we know however, is that this office will always stand for and enforce the rule of law.

It is not possible, nor is it practical to predict what we will do in a hypothetical situation. Nothing in the recent Executive Orders from the White House appears to impact local law enforcement. When and if the time comes to act or not act, we will do so given our best analysis of Constitutional principles involved and under the circumstances which exist at the time.

Rest assured that we strongly support the Second Amendment of the United States Constitution and its counterpart in the South Carolina Constitution. We have never feared the possession of firearms by law abiding citizens. The overwhelming majority of firearms owners in this State pose no threat to anyone other than those who would do them harm. The cherished right of law abiding citizens to keep and possess firearms for recreation, hunting and self-defense is uniquely American and the bedrock of freedom.

While the politicians debate and the interest groups advocate their positions, we are working with the School Districts to increase the security of our schools in an effort to prevent the type of tragedy we witnessed in Connecticut from happening in our county. We are jointly reviewing all policies and practices to make sure that our schools have state of the art security measures in place.

Our School Resource Officers and Patrol Deputies will be more visible in and around our schools, and additional training for school personnel on critical incidents is in the works.

As your Sheriff, I urge everyone to take a breath and a break from all the rhetoric and allow this debate to take place through the political process. That process allows for your voice to be heard through your elected representatives in Congress and at the State House. Let them hear from you. In the interim we will be enforcing the law as it currently exists.

Sincerely,

Kenney Boone
Florence County Sheriff end quote

So he's getting tired of the frantic paranoid gun owners phoning him up all the time wondering if he's gonna ride with Obama's UN storm troopers when they come for their guns.

Here is a link that might be useful: link


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

lily: "More people are coming to our side though, and the more mass massacres that happen,change will come."

Don't take this the wrong way, lily, but I for one hope you are holding your breath.

-------------------


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

well I guess the anti-gun people want more mass killing to win a political point and don't care about victims at all.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

another a-whole-a working a talking point. Don't you folks ever listen to yourselves?


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

You people are pathetic. You don't even deserve a response.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

lily316 i agree all anti gun people care about how many dead kids it will take so they can pass gun law that will stop no crimes or murders.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

seems arguments here have digressed beyond reASON OR REPAIR. i suspect the lefty gun haters have concluded their argument to put hits on the rights of gun owners is a losing proposition so they react like wounded a cape buffalo


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Well, thats one interpretation. The other is that all these posts by the fanatical gun owners have opened the eyes to those who were unaware of just how flat out crazy are all the people justifying owning dozens of increasingly powerful weapons with no back ground checks and unlimited magazines and freely carrying them around everywhere with no training or licensing, supporting the NRA who openly advocates for less and less restrictions, all the while bemoaning the toll the guns take.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Yep David, that about covers it.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Well, I've owned guns for the past 50 years. I hunt, I spent years going through the NRA youth target shooting program and in 1968, reached the level of Expert, which is one below the highest rating you can get, Distinguished Expert. Some of my guns were inherited, some were purchased with a back ground check.

I'm not worried that the Gub'mint and Obama are going to confiscate my guns. I have no fantasies of holding off an ATF SWAT team "Defending my Freedom" or what ever. If it came to defending my home and family, I'd rather shoot 12 gauge, 3" goose loads at an intruder than use a pistol, semi-automatic rifle, or whatever.

I honestly don't see the need for 30+ round magazines. When we shoot prairie dogs by the dozens, we reload the clips for the .17 HMR without backbreaking hardship. I can see that a trained shooter won't be slowed down by swapping out 10 round clips, but maybe that would slow down those who are not familiar with weapons, ie sicko who shot up Gabby Gifford in AZ was tackled when he tried to change clips. Keep the ones you have, just make it illegal to transfer or sell them.

I also don't have a problem with doing a back ground check on the buyer when/if I want to sell any of my guns privately, just head down to the local gun shop and have them do that for me for a small fee. And if we make it a crime not to do so with a penalty more than a slap on the wrist, then golly, the Feds/State has another weapon in fighting the flood of stolen/illegal guns. Because as it is, its almost impossible to convict straw purchasers and if they manage to do so, the penalties are a joke.

Now are these some sort of hardship on law-abiding gun owners? Sure, but I'll take it if it means just one innocent persons' life saved. And no, I don't buy into the concept that this is the tip of the iceberg, and the next thing will be to confiscate all the guns in America. Will it make a difference? It could well.

For what its worth, I think its stupid to try and ban semi-automatic "assault" weapons, even though I think they're ugly. And I think the NRA has degenerated into a fear mongering, money grubbing, far-right political organ who isn't helping or supporting the vast majority of responsible gun owners in this country.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

I think that was very cruel comment , Bill

If the shoe fits, you wear it. If not, you throw it away. So long as you try it on to make sure one way or the other.

I wonder what your thoughts would be if one of those precious kids was your child or grandchild.

That's EXACTLY why I spend so much time arguing with the likes of you. I very seriously believe that what you want to do is counterprodutive to the ends that we BOTH want.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

I wonder if the gun nuts have to take a literacy test. From the likes of those who call into the local talk radio show, it's doubtful they went beyond fourth grade by their speech and ignorance. But then I guess Rush has filled their tiny brains with so much mush and nonfacts.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

David, you often present good thoughts. But you end up going over the side.
I doubt there are more than a handful who think confiscation will be ordered, yet, under this administration it may not be beyond belief. I would also bet that most gun owners would like to support lower magazine limits to MOST owners. But, we know what that would lead to, witness New York.
Background checks would only be a pesky little item but gun shops are getting up to 30 bucks for a transfer and will probably need to increase that in the future. I do hold that all guns transferred at gun shows should require insta check.
Here again, miost gun owners would be receptive of that.
But then you go on to bring up that old saw of saving just one life!. WQell, there are hundreds of things we can do to save just one life. And, guns do save more than 1 life every day of the year by those who use them to prevent harm to themselves, family or others.
I used to have no use for the modern style rifles. I collected weapons with extraordinary blueing, wood stocks, engraving, etc. Sako delux, german Weatherbys and others. But Ive since found that these ugly guns arent so bad. They are accurate, reliable, and 1 gun can be reconfigured to nearly unlimited uses. It really would be stretch to refer to them as assault weapons. I mean they are available in over 100 calibers and more configurations than you can immagine. With different stocks, you wouldnt know what they were from any other weapon. Ugly is only in the eyes of the beholders. It is just plain stupid to ban a gun on its physical appearances.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Well, thats one interpretation. The other is that all these posts by the fanatical gun owners have opened the eyes to those who were unaware of just how flat out crazy are all the people justifying owning dozens of increasingly powerful weapons with no back ground checks and unlimited magazines and freely carrying them around everywhere with no training or licensing, supporting the NRA who openly advocates for less and less restrictions, all the while bemoaning the toll the guns take.

Exactly. 2 different interpretations. One by a rational gun owning citizen. And the other by irrational, perhaps illiterate, gun loving, guns are more important than anything else citizens. In other words, the NRA.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

New York City Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly says 60% of NYC murders are by HAND GUNS not assault weapons.

Let the spewing begin...

-Ron-


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Exactly jill. There are two interpretations, and if the NRA would soften their stance and not be so radical to inflame the anti gun people, then perhaps deals could be worked out. Most sides are riled up, and nothing good will happen. The NRA is saturating the internet with their lies...witness the newbies who showed up here and then abruptly left. But make no mistake the other side is using the same tactics and tool...the internet , and it's working.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

FF, your argument boils down to any restrictions at all lead eventually to confiscation. I've yet to see any proof of that at, in fact its the contrary. During the 10 year ban on 'assault weapons' and extended magazines, existing gun laws were loosened, concealed carry laws became far more lax - and Obama signed laws allowing people to transport guns in National Parks. In Arizona now you don't even need training at all to get a concealed carry permit.

National and state polls show that there is wide spread support for universal back ground checks as well as limiting the size of magazines. Beyond that, support for further steps starts to break down in a hurry.

As for the cliche about 'saving just one life', look at the steps we take with car safety, toy safety, tool safety, and so on, and the tens of thousands of lives we've saved over the years. Guns kill 35,000 people a year - now a lot of that is suicides, but still, steps to train people on safety, keep guns away from small children, make it harder with worse penalties for a crook to buy a gun, there are a lot of things that can be done to make things safer and keep guns out of the hands of nut jobs and idiots.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

I think if the anti gun group would be realistic and come out with some common sense approaces, tthere could be some meaningful conversations resulting in positive steps.But, alas. the antis are so rigid, they only incite gun owners to be more rigid as well, thats the ways its been.
The anti gun people saturate the media with false information and outright lies, you see it here every day.Admittedly, its probably their ignorance of fire arms, but even if that is the case, they arent willing to learn, they just attack.
Ive bought 3 new guns since Dec 1, all have differeing approaces to safety measures. The Ruger pistol has a locking case and a locking safety, the S&W pistol has a locking bolt and a locking case, the S&W M&P15 carbine has a locking cable to prevent its use. Every pistol or revolver Ive bought in the past 15 years has safety devices of one or more types.

I believe weve already agreed that penalties need stiffened and enforced; we really need to look at our cultural problems;
If the petty name calling and bickering would cease, if balaming everything else would stop, cooler heads could come together. But in the end, trusting those who have spoken against the right to bear arms for their entire careers, like obama has,will be a very difficult measure.,


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Pot calling the kettle black, FF...the biggest name caller here is you.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Who've I called a name?? I may have suggested you were evil, for that I am sorry. It was a stupid thing for me to say.

What kettle did I blacken lily? Ya lost me somewhere?


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

FF, every single one of your multi-worded posts slams anti-gun advocates and/or their ideas. When I drop those out of your messages, there ain't nothing there.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Marshall, You're probably correct. But then, is it ok to slam those who do appreciate weaponry? What is the agenda of the antis, to help preserve the right to arms? NO. I mean its ok to slam me but I cant slam back, is that correct?


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

I would be encouraged by Marshall's remarks, FF. I see it as constructive criticism; surely not personal. Why not take it as a gentle nudge.

You do realize your last question above is rhetorical?


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Thanks, Elvis. FF, you and your gunsters are way too important to this debate and to the end result because you are the guys and girls that will make arms regulation work, not a bunch of housewives and couch potatoes. You have the expertise and interest for both protecting your (and my) rights and self-policing the gun trade and fun and games enjoyed by so many people.

Instead you want to sound like an crotchety blowhard toward those that might actually look to you for some guidance. You don't want to sound that way.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Thank YOU, Marshall :D

I'm just not feeling articulate these days; I think I have puppy-brain. Last pickup this weekend. Whew.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Marshall, every once in a while, it gets to the point where you just don't give a damn about being sh*t on any more, no matter HOW much sense you make, and you start swinging back. Me personally, I have no idea how that would feel. :-) Yes, it's counterproductive. It's also being human.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

That's why a lot of us forgive you; we are all human and react to stress by flight or fight.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Elvis, ya gotta watch excessive puppy lifting and hugging. Turn you into a librul.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

lily316 well we know anti gun people illiterate and self serving. Since anti gun politicians think it is OK to have gun toting security to protect them from aggression but average citizen should not. double standard clear and simple.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Ridiculous analogy and scurrilous snarking


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

what Marshall said.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

thegreatcob wrote,

well we know anti gun people illiterate

And there you go.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

  • Posted by vgkg 7-Va Tidewater (My Page) on
    Tue, Jan 29, 13 at 17:32

Confusion say :
If guns only killed the "bad guys", the main problem with them would go away. Then we'd just have to struggle with the killing part.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Funny never once heard " the elitists have men packing to protect them but would deny it to us" argument until the NRA said so least week......baaaaaa


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Funny never once heard " the elitists have men packing to protect them but would deny it to us" argument until the NRA said so least week......baaaaaa

Actually, I've said it many times. you just weren't listening..... any more than you have been now.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

I fail to see the relevance of that argument. Even if President Obama's recommendations get through Congress and become law, that will not stop rich folks from hiring bodyguards. Are Joe Q. Public and Joe 6-pac and I likely to be targetted by kidnappers or assassins or thieves wanting to steal all our rich goodies? NO! Joe and I aren't important enough or rich enough or influential enough to NEED paid bodyguards!

And I hate to tell you, but rich folks can afford all sorts of things you and I cannot. Or are you arguing for some kind of socialism where we take all excess from the rich and re-distribute it to everybody else? Hmmm--strange argument for a Republican.

Kate


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Doesnt Joe 6 have the right to protection?Many people dont rely on the government for all their needs.
Kendra St. Claire, a 12 year old at home alone one day called her mother at work to say there was a man repeatedly banging on the door and ringing the doorbell.When no one answered the door, she said he disappeared. The mother told her daughter to get the.40 cal Glock pistol and go into the bathroom closet. The girl heard him break thru the back door and make his way through her home. He was inside the home for approx. 6 minutes before he made his way to the bathroom where Kendra was hiding. When she saw the doorknob begin to turn, she fired the gun. The 32 year old intruder was taken into custudy after being treated for a gunshot to the chest.
The Oklahoman, Durant , Ok. Oct. 20. 20012.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

And I hate to tell you, but rich folks can afford all sorts of things you and I cannot. Or are you arguing for some kind of socialism where we take all excess from the rich and re-distribute it to everybody else? Hmmm--strange argument for a Republican.

First off, I'm not a republican. Secondly, how about being responsible for yourself? I know you socilaists don't believe in that ( :-) ), but being I can't afford a bodyguard, I'll take care of it myself, thank you. When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

You missed my key argument. You and I aren't important enough or rich enough to need paid bodyguards. Other than common sense alertness, there isn't much for us to guard or be guarded from.

Are you telling me, bill, you didn't vote for Romney? If you did, for that moment you were a Republican. And I'd add that if you normally vote Republican, it doesn't matter what you are registered. You vote Republican, you are Republican in practice if not on paper. : )

Kate (Is he really going to respond that he voted for Obama? Suspense!)


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Bill my listening skills are every bit as good as yours.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

I doubt Bill voted for either of the main choices, but I've been wrong before.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

ff--the main thing wrong with your story is that the mother should not have left her child home alone. That might constitute child neglect.

And if Mom (is there a Dad?) had just had enough forethought to buy a yappy dog, that critter would have made so much noise, that half the neighborhood would have come out to complain and the breaker-in guy would have fled before anyone needed to resort to violence.

How about recommending a little common sense and common safety measures rather than urging people to get a gun and shoot!

Kate


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Are you telling me, bill, you didn't vote for Romney? If you did, for that moment you were a Republican

I didn't vote FOR Romney. I voted AGAINST Obama.Just because I can't stand the democrat doesn't mean I like the republican. As for what I "usually" vote forI vote the person, not the party. Always have, even when I WAS a registered republican.

You and I aren't important enough or rich enough to need paid bodyguards. Other than common sense alertness, there isn't much for us to guard or be guarded from.

Although in the grand scheme of things you may be right, if it came down to brass tacks, I might take exception to that line of thinking. :-)


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

It wasnt MY story, it belonged to the 'Oklahoman'.
And of course , do you know why the 12 year old was home alone at that particular time. I dont judge that. But you may??
At least common sense dictated that the family be familiar with a means of self defense, or, that girl could have been raped and killed.?? would that have been a better option for yoy? probably not, Im just sayin.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

If there was danger of the girl being raped and killed, all the more reason why an adult supervisor should be present.

It is not considered good parenting to leave kids alone at home. That's what babysitters/child care workers are for. I'm serious--do not leave your kids home alone. I'm shocked that anyone would substitute a gun for an adult childcare worker!

And buy a yappy dog. I'm serious! There is nothing an intruder dislikes more than a lot of noise and attention when he's trying to break the law!

That's some of that common sense and common alertness I was recommending earlier.

Kate


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Did they have a dog?? I dunno? Maybe they dont like dogs??I dont have a dog, do you? well you can be the judge. The girl is ok, the bad guy aint.
If I knew when danger would present itself, I would be quite exceptional.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

while you are making judgements, did they have a dog, should they have a dog?

While at home with his wife and daughter, a homeowner prepared to go outside to investigate a sudden power outage. His wife bsuggested maybe he should take his firearm just in case. As he opened the door to step outside, 3 men charged him in an attempt to gain entry to the home. The homeowner pushed his wife vaside as he fell backward and fired at the intruders. His daughter, a student in her early 20s hid in another vroom and called police. One of the 3 home invaders suffered multiple gunshot wounds and was listed in serious condition, the other 2 escaped. The homeowner and his family were not seriously injured.
Sun Sentinel, Miramar, Fla. 10/02/12


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Yes, and I might get hit by lightning too--but I doubt it. Just as I doubt that bit of drama would ever happen in my life either.

They must have been aware that they were in dangerous country or that they had really pizzed someone off royally if they had to grab a gun before they dared to walk outside their own house. Whatever strange world they were living in, most of the rest of the country will never have to encounter such Hollywoodish scripts.

Kate


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Of course, this has nothing to do with universal back ground checks, limiting the capacity of magazines, strengthening the laws about stealing guns and straw purchases, banning 'assault weapons' or any of the other measures being discussed.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

I am amazed at these heroic stories, little vignettes of approximately the same length and style. Let's see, there are 300,100,000 people in the US and nearly the same number of weapons in private ownership. Yet, fewer than 40% of the adults own a gun. There are some serious personal arsenals out there.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

FF, for every story you put out there, we could match 100 to 1 about how the gun the person had was turned against him and he , his wife, their kid, their friend were killed. Like the 15 year old last week who killed mom, brother ,two tiny sisters, dad, and was going to Walmart to kill as many more as he could. Only 40% of Americans own all the gazillion weapons out there, and many more Right wing Christians than liberals have guns.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Only 40% of Americans own all the gazillion weapons out there

Double that.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

  • Posted by RpR_ 3-4 (My Page) on
    Wed, Jan 30, 13 at 10:45

Posted by lily

"FF, for every story you put out there, we could match 100 to 1 about how the gun the person had was turned against him and he , his wife, their kid, their friend were killed. Like the 15 year old last week who killed mom, brother ,two tiny sisters, dad, and was going to Walmart to kill as many more as he could. Only 40% of Americans own all the gazillion weapons out there, and many more Right wing Christians than liberals have guns."
------------------------------------

Then put up or shut-up.

Give stories based on fact, not liberal paranoid BS.

There is a magazine that has six or more stories of self-defense with a firearm, along with source of information, so you are going to have to dig deeply to get that supposed one hundred to one that exists only in the mind of hateful hoplophobes.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

For those not in the know about the origins of "hateful hoplophobes", I link to Mother Google. Why am I not surprised.

Here is a link that might be useful: hateful hoplophobes


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Is it pronounced 'hop' like the Easter bunny, or 'hope', like 'hope and change'?


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

I really don't know, Dave. I suspect "hop" as in hophead, related to the kind of adult entertainment substances ingested by describers of "hateful hoplophobes."


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

  • Posted by RpR_ 3-4 (My Page) on
    Wed, Jan 30, 13 at 11:35

Why y'all spew forth babble this and babble that about guns and how horrible they are, I figured such an educated group would have full knowledge of what hoplophobia is.

Well for the few uneducated here, just for you:

"Hoplophobia is a pejorative neologism originally coined to describe an "irrational aversion to weapons."
It is sometimes used to describe the "fear of weapons" or the "highly salient danger of these weapons " or the "fear of armed citizens".

This post was edited by RpR_ on Wed, Jan 30, 13 at 11:38


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

I just checked a couple of marshall's links and came across the following article in which the gun becomes a religion that infuses us with the power of a god.

I'm not kidding. Here are a few excerpts. So that you understand the context, the writer is attacking another writer who criticized Sarah Palin for her gun photo on the cover of Newsweek. Now read this--is this writer for real? Or is this more Onion-like satire (since we seem to have an outbreak of it this morning)?

Satirical or not, note the language equating guns with the highest religious-patriotic calling and indeed with the godhead--available to anyone capable of handling the POWER OF THE GUN!

Excerpt:
Snead [the writer who criticized Palin's gun photo]thinks gun owners are dangerous. She's afflicted with a malignant case of hoplophobia. Snead fears what she doesn't understand and attacks out of instinct. She is of the over civilized ilk that hide behind the dust covered boots of men and women with guns, who stand watch upon the battlements of this republic. There are hard and ready men both here and abroad who know the price of a free republic and live as the warriors of old with courage, honor, and passion. They share nothing in common with the effete urbanite who preens his lacquered fingernails and moves with oily manner in his silken shirts. These hard and ready men know that the world harbors evil and that this evil is not amenable to parlay and must be met abroad and at home by force of arms.

Good defintiion of "hoplophobes" in the article, in case you haven't heard that diagnosis before.

Now get a load of this language:
Excerpt:
The figure that Sarah Palin strikes in the Newsweek photograph is the paradigm of femininity; an empowered woman with a command of firearms. By this tool of power she is made the equal of men and master of all she surveys.

"Master of all she surveys"! But wait--the language gets even more meglomaniac:
The possession of a good rifle, as well as the skill to use it well, truly makes a man the monarch of all he surveys. It realizes the ancient dream of the Jovian thunderbolt, and as such it is the embodiment of personal power."

You too can be a "king" -- no, wait, a possessor of the power of the Greek God, the Jove/Zeus top dog of the universe. I guess that makes you GODlike! Just go buy a gun!

So tell me, folks. Is this gun meglomania or satire? There's a whole bunch of links on google spouting this crazy talk, at any rate.

Kate

Here is a link that might be useful: Hoplophobia


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Only 40% of Americans own all the gazillion weapons out there

Double that.

Only 40% of Americans own all the TWO gazillion weapons out there.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

But..what percentage of the owners are going to cause intentional harm?


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Hey lily, can ya post some definite info on that please.

it doesnt matter where you are, things happen.
Cindy Schachter, an employee at Furnari Jewelers was working when 2 men entered the storearound 4 p.m. Her boss, Tony Furnari was sitting at his desk facing the showroom. Something about the men made her uneasy so she gave her boss a quiet vwarning just before the men pulled cklothing over their faces and jumped over the counter. Furnari pulled his .38 handgun from his desk and fired several shots at one of the suspects as he came toward him.Furnari was beated as the men attempted to grab the firearm from him. When Furnari fought back the 2 men grabbed a display of gold chains and fled. One suspect was later taken into custody after seeking medical attention for several bullet wounds. the 2nd man was reported to be still at large. Furnari suffered a broken nose, a concussion, multiple stitches to his face and hand, and a fractured rib. Schracter was unharmed.
The Republican, Chicopee, MA. 10/17/12.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

Well, that example might be interpreted two ways. the good guy pulls his gun and shoots, yet his store is still robbed, and still ....suffered a broken nose, a concussion, multiple stitches to his face and hand, and a fractured rib while the bad guys escaped with the loot.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

But..what percentage of the owners are going to cause intentional harm?

What percentage of gun owners end up letting their weapon get into someone else's hands and THAT person causes harm? A child that takes their parent's gun, an invader that disarms a homeowner pointing it at him? A gun that is stolen in a robbery and then used to commit a crime?

And what percentage of owners end up using their weapon to kill someone (including themselves) because they were under emotional stress and the weapon was easily available to them?


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

But..what percentage of the owners are going to cause intentional harm?

What %age cause unintentional harm, or harm in the heat of the moment?

Georgia man shoots and kills young Latino who accidentally pulled into his driveway, police say
by Adrian Carrasquillo, @RealAdrianC
4:59 pm on 01/29/2013

Rodrigo Diaz, 22, was driving around with his girlfriend and two friends when he pulled into a driveway, thinking they had arrived at another friend�s house, his brother says. But instead he pulled into the driveway of Phillip Sailors, 69, who thought his home was being robbed, his lawyer says. Sailors then shot Diaz, according to the police report, citing what Sailors told officers at the scene. Diaz later died while in the intensive care unit.

"Basically, what happened is they were looking for one of my brother�s girlfriend�s friends," says his brother David E. Diaz-Valencia, 23. "The guy came outside and my brother�s girlfriend said he was screaming, �Get off my property!� and he shot into the air. My brother was backing out fast because he was scared and he rolled down the window to say he was sorry and he was not doing anything wrong. Then the guy shot him in his head."

When officers arrived, Angie Rebolledo, Diaz�s girlfriend, had blood on her jeans, both arms and both hands as she was attempting to get a response from him and screamed frantically that her boyfriend had been shot, according to police...

The dusky hordes are why we need guns, dontchaknow.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

And our lesson for today...

Hoplophobia is a pejorative coined (some say as far back as 1962) to describe an "irrational" aversion to weapons.

A cobbling of hop (from the Greek "hoplon", meaning arms among other things - prononced as in Hopalong Cassidy) and "phobos" meaning fear.

So if you're a fan of the Winged Victory of Samothrace you have no need to fear "arms". Elsewise, you're being called a grammatical form connoting negativity and/or contempt.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

I AM a fan!!!


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

@RpR -

As you claim to have information about firearms permits in Minnesota, perhaps you could tell us how many of those weapons were used in crimes by their legal owners in the last couple of years, and also how many lawful and justifiable uses there were of those guns by those permit holders?

Thank you.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

well we know anti gun people illiterate

Funniest thing I read today!

Try reading your own posts, or those of fancifowl, or...do I really need to go on?


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

  • Posted by RpR_ 3-4 (My Page) on
    Wed, Jan 30, 13 at 13:28

Posted by Factotem

RpR -

"As you claim to have information about firearms permits in Minnesota, perhaps you could tell us how many of those weapons were used in crimes by their legal owners in the last couple of years, and also how many lawful and justifiable uses there were of those guns by those permit holders?

Thank you."
---------------------------

I said there was a magazine that has documented cases of legal use of a fire-arm for self-defense.
It covers all states, not just Minn.

Here is the only informal statistic I could find on Minn.
------------
Well, here's the latest analysis of the MN CCW law--Gun-carry law hasn't produced more crime

Additional licensed handguns have neither increased nor decreased violent crime in Minnesota, a state report shows.

By Conrad deFiebre, Star Tribune
Last update: March 29, 2007 � 9:45 PM

Tens of thousands more Minnesotans licensed to carry handguns in public haven't turned the state into the Wild West shootout that gun-control advocates warned of. But they also have not done much to curb violent crime, a benefit that many gun-rights proponents predicted when the state's permitting law was liberalized.

Between 2002, the year before the law was changed, and 2005, the most recent year for which state figures are available, Minnesota's violent crime rose 13 percent.

The 174 crimes committed by permit holders, according to a recent state report, represent only a tiny fraction of the surge, which experts say owes more to demographic trends and gangs.

Only 23 of the crimes by permit holders involved a pistol.

"There was an awful lot of hype on both sides before the law passed," said state Public Safety Commissioner Michael Campion. "It just hasn't materialized. I never believed there'd be a decrease in crime because people carry guns."

Sheriffs, who are issuing hundreds of new handgun permits each month, agree that the law's impact on public safety, which ignited intense debate for years leading up to its passage, has been negligible.

"Except for one domestic assault, we've had no incidents either way," said Dakota County Sheriff Don Gudmundson, an early critic of the law.

He offered a possible explanation: As gun owners become more experienced, they carry their weapons less often. "They're too hot, too cold, too heavy," he said. "Most off-duty cops are not armed."

Much of the bloodshed has centered in Hennepin County, where the one murder by a Minnesota permit holder occurred outside a Minneapolis bar in 2005. Zachary Ourada of Minneapolis shot Billy Walsh, a bar bouncer, four times in the back after Walsh ejected Ourada from Nye's Polonaise Room for being a drunken nuisance. Ourada is serving 36 years in prison.


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RE: Guns make us less safe.

RpR -

For the two most recently-reported years (2010 and 2011), there were at least 59 crimes commited with guns by legal permit holders, and the figure could be as high as 354 (counting all crimes by permit holders where the use of their firearm was not specifically reported). In all, there were 561 crimes commited by legal permit holders.

During that same time period, the total number of lawful and justified uses of guns by permit holders was zero.

All data from the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension.


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