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Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
Fri, Jan 18, 13 at 7:57

How Many People Have Been Killed by Guns Since Newtown? 1013 (though this is probably incomplete).

Tragic

Unnecessary

Unending heartbreak.

Here is a link that might be useful: Link


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

Congratulations! 1000 already - you must be so proud.


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

The more people pay attention and start to gather and promote statistics like this, the louder the voices will become for action.


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

the louder the voices will become for action.

So, are any of those loud voices willing to stand up here and say they want to ban handguns as well as assault weapons?

Handguns kill the majority of those people, it only makes sense.

Who is willing to go on record and say it?


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

momj47, at first I thought that the figure covered a broader area.
When I understood that this was essentially the Continental USA and war was not included, I was astounded.


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

There were 8500 people who died by firearms last year. There were almost 11,000 drunk driving fatalities, many were children. Banning firearms won't work any better than prohibition did. The discussion should be about what makes someone walk into a school, a crowded theatre, a mall, and kill innocent people. And I'm not pro gun. I just feel like we are having the wrong discussion.


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

I don't think we need to ban handguns - the laws around the way that people obtain them and keep them need some consideration.


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

Questions-- how many of those are justified police shootings, or even justified civilian shootings? How many of them are gang shootings? Where were thses shootings committed? I think if you dig past the politically correct overall number, you'll find an entirely different story.


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

There were 8500 people who died by firearms last year. There were almost 11,000 drunk driving fatalities

And there are all kinds of steps taken to lower drunk driving as well as make vehicles safer, and the over-all decline in vehicle accidents is steady and remarkable.

Guns are now the 2nd cause of death for children, right behind vehicle accidents. And if trends continue, eg lowering the death toll from cars via air bags, seat belts, booster seats, ignition locks for drunks, etc, and nothing is done about guns, then guns will be the leading cause of death for children in 2015

But nooooo, we can't have pediatricians ask the parents of toddlers about loaded guns lying around the house. What with that immediately leading to black helicopters full of jack-booted pediatricians confiscating all your guns.

And with the drunk driving/NRA gun argument, is the answer to a bad drunk driver - a good drunk driver?

Here is a link that might be useful: link


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

And with the drunk driving/NRA gun argument, is the answer to a bad drunk driver - a good drunk driver?

More alcohol, yeah!


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

Bill,

Some folks like to use per capita figures. That makes it easier than investigating why so many teens/children die in Chicago, Cleveland, Detroit, Philadelphia...and so on.

Since 2008, more than 530 youth have been killed in Chicago with nearly 80 percent of the homicides occurring in 22 African-American or Latino community areas on the city�s South, Southwest and West sides.

Banning a gun in Butte won't save a life in Chicago.


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

"justified civilian shooting" - that suggestion, idea, excuse whatever you want to call it makes me want to do one of two things - cry or throw up. I know the scenarios that are going to be thrown at me so don't bother.


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Fri, Jan 18, 13 at 12:45

Click on any individual in that graphic and you'll get the details. I recommend clicking on the children and teenagers. (the smaller icons)

Steven Curtis
Killed in Breckenridge, Missouri
Killed on 1/12/2013
Age: 12

Alexandra Brown
Killed in Pleasant, Ohio
Killed on 1/14/2013
Age: 10

Jacob Ball
Killed in Cambridge , Ohio
Killed on 1/9/2013
Age: 5

Jonah Mendoza
Killed in Ocala, Florida
Killed on 1/4/2013
Age: 1

And on, and on............and on............and on.


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

justified civilian shooting" - that suggestion, idea, excuse whatever you want to call it makes me want to do one of two things - cry or throw up

"They needed killin'."

Where is that line from? I can't remember now.


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

"justified civilian shooting" - that suggestion, idea, excuse whatever you want to call it makes me want to do one of two things - cry or throw up.

Ever hear the phrase there but for the grace of God go I? Maybe you'll just stand there and allow an attacker to kill you. Me? I'll drop him where he stands, and I'll be JUSTIFIED in doing so. Civilians can shoot for the very same reasons as cops-- to defend themselves or others from imminent danger. Something most people don't realize-- both civilians and cops are governed by the same exact rules with respect to the use of deadly force.

Banning a gun in Butte won't save a life in Chicago.

where guns are ALREADY banned.


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

How many armed attackers have you faced in civilian life, Bill? You have the same training as police about when to shoot and when NOT to shoot? I doubt this will play out in real life as in fantasy -- that you'll be cool, calm and collected if you perceive a threat and use your gun. Are you certain you'd reading the situation correctly? And if you were mistaken, and someone is dead or maimed?


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

I've been wanting to say this for a long time now but it never seemed appropriate to the discussion but I need to say it.

No rights , even rights spelled out in our various Constitutions are absolute.....all of them come with some sort of reasonable restrictions. Trouble is we have trouble agreeing on what is reasonable.

I do not believe in hate language but I do believe in a persons right to voice their opinion as long as it does not endanger or interfere with the lives of others. It reasonable to have laws against liable, death threats and the like.

I do NOT believe in abortion but I DO believe in a woman's right to choose. We have legal limits on when during the pregnancy abortion is legal.

I do NOT believe in gun ownership but I DO believe that the choice to own a gun is a personal choice and legal under the law. Like limitations to abortion, I believe it is reasonable to set legal limits on the types of firearms and who can own/use them.

All rights come with limitations...guns aren't special in that regard. I also don't understand those who would limit a woman's right to choose but rail against those that would limit gun ownership.

There I feel better....will go back to leaving all this gun chatter to the rest of you.


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

Chase, some of us have brought up the same cases as you have, and we've been dismissed. The reasoning was something like this: The Second Amendment is specifically listed in the Bill of Rights, but women's reproductive rights are not -- as if the Supreme Court rulings interpreting the Constitution and Bill of Rights mean nothing.


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

Nancy, give that a rest already.

Reproductive rights are human rights, not an amendment.


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

but still...


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

The Constitution isn't 'the last word'. (Women were close to chattel then, and guns were slow going.) Hooray for Amendments!


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

mrskjun wrote,

There were 8500 people who died by firearms last year.

This statement is false. The actual number is 31,718 for 2011 (the most recent figures available), according to the CDC.

Do you stand by your claim?


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

How foolhardy some of the pro-gun arguments have become.

No one is suggesting that we ban handguns (although I think Nixon suggested that).
No one is suggesting that banning assault weapons will stop all of the gun violence.

There is no effective ban against handguns in Chicago, a fact that I have explained on numerous occasions. Guns are available across the street from the Chicago limits or just a few minutes away in any number of suburbs. That is a red herring in the gun debate.

It is time for common sense reforms including those proposed by our President. The fact that we can't do everything doesn't mean we cannot start.

Maybe you'll just stand there and allow an attacker to kill you. Me? I'll drop him where he stands, and I'll be JUSTIFIED in doing so.

What if he just punches you in the face pretty hard and he is quicker, younger and stronger than you? Do you run for your gun?


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

Let's see: that would be 60 gun deaths/day. Compared to 1,871 forcible rapes/day, according to the New York City Alliance Against Sexual Assault.

"683,000 adult American women are forcibly raped each year. This equals 56,916 per month; 1,871 per day; 78 per hour; and 1.3 per minute."

If taking away the tool used to commit the crime is the answer to gun violence, i.e., take away the guns--

Whatever shall be do about the crime of sexual assault; do we take away the tool?

What an interesting idea.

Here is a link that might be useful: Instrument of Violence


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

elvis wrote,

Whatever shall be do about the crime of sexual assault; do we take away the tool?

What an interesting idea.

That is an interesting idea. The first question I would pose is, can someone steal someone else's tool and use it to rape someone?


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

Yeah, because getting rid of a man's penis is TOTALLY comparable to getting rid of his firearm.

Come on elvis. You know better than that.


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

Hamilton, of course it's not the same; if it was--well, it would be the same. But it is a valid analogy, intended to make you think about the fact that the instrument doing the damage is controlled by a person (in this analogy, a man).

I don't need anyone to agree with me.


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

My statistics are from 2011 but here goes. There were 8,583 deaths caused by guns out of the 12,664 murder victims. Of those 6,220 were by handguns. Bill, I wish I had the answers to your questions because they are good questions. I wish I could find info as to how many were gang related.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-11

In 2011 overall deaths were 2,513,171. So guns accounted for .34 percent of deaths that year. Of those deaths 26,631 people died from falling off things such as ladders and rocks.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_06.pdf

Just putting numbers in perspective. And in New York we already have more than 600 gun laws on the books.


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

JessicaR wrote,

In 2011 overall deaths were 2,513,171. So guns accounted for .34 percent of deaths that year.

That is incorrect. Gun deaths in 2011 numbered 31,718 per CDC figures and thus accounted for 1.26% of all deaths (accepting your total deaths figure arguendo) and exceeded the figure you give for deaths due to falls.


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

Mark Shields pointed out this evening that since the time Martin Luther King and Bobby Kennedy were shot, there have been 1 million, 200-something-thousand (he had the exact figure) gun deaths in this country, more than all the wars we've fought, combined.

Not exactly something to be proud of.


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

JessicaR wrote,

And in New York we already have more than 600 gun laws on the books.

Untrue, as a perusal of Articles 265 and 400 would show. Where did you come up with this absurd figure? It sounds like the oft-quoted "20,000 gun laws in the US" nonsense (the actual figure is closer to 300, according to a study by the Brookings Institution a few years ago).


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

I thought Mark Shields was a political pundit; didn't realize he was a historian...Mr. Shields needs to bone up.

'The total number of Americans killed in action from all major wars combined, the ten listed below, is 2,757,196, which, while a disheartening number, is about the same as the number of Vietnamese that died in the Vietnam War alone.'

Here is a link that might be useful: How many?


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

Oh for goodness sake - get a calculator and add the figures you provided for yourself before posting!

Your KIA figures give a total of 620,219 including the civil war; therefore 435,625 in your history since the revolution excluding killing each other. The author then claims - above his own figures - 'The total number of Americans killed in action from all major wars combined, the ten listed below, is 2,757,196, ...'

He also claims that Great Britain fought in the Vietnam War, and apologises for not having their casualty figures to hand. Not surprising really, because they didn't.

Just because you don't check your own sources doesn't mean other won't, and it certainly will make others suspicious of any future assertions.


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

In addition to guns being used to kill people, how many guns are used to commit a crime - like rape a woman? Rob a bank? Is it only death that matters or should we also include stats like those?


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

As for the Mark Shields quote, Politifact rates it "true"

At the link, you can see where they got their data.

Here is a link that might be useful: link


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

elvis wrote,

I thought Mark Shields was a political pundit; didn't realize he was a historian...Mr. Shields needs to bone up.
'The total number of Americans killed in action from all major wars combined, the ten listed below, is 2,757,196, which, while a disheartening number, is about the same as the number of Vietnamese that died in the Vietnam War alone.'

I didn't realize that you were a historian. You need to bone up.

The figure for Americans killed in action according to the link you provided is 620,219.

Do you stand by your claim that the correct number is 2,757,196?

This provides another opportunity to examine the questions previously posed about how conservatives respond when they discover that they have posted false information.


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

Elvis, you poor thing! Can't trust your sources anymore and so have to withstand assault-by-fact-checkers.

Perhaps your figure of 2,757,196 deaths included non-combatants? I added up in my head the KIA's in all our wars to 2003 and did not come up with your number, that a quote from your link.


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

@mrskjun: You wrote,

There were 8500 people who died by firearms last year.

As I pointed out, this statement is false. The actual number is 31,718 for 2011 according to the CDC.

Are you going to correct your claim, or do you stand by it?


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

@JessicaR:

I notice that you just joined here a few days ago and all your posts are in gun threads.

Are you being compensated for posting here?


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

Factotem..In the wake of the Sandy Hook slaughter, gun defenders popped out of the woodwork here. People who just registered ,ones who had never posted one word here...suddenly they were taking over every thread here on HT.

My own suspicious mind came to the conclusion that the NRA put their advocates on all over the internet forums to push their warped talking points.


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

Not really a fair, just a supposition. There is always some hot topics being discussed whenever anyone joins up, I believe I joined in on a rousing abortion debate when I joined ..... and was publicly regarded with suspicion.


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

Not fair, regarding Jessica in particular, I mean to say.


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Sat, Jan 19, 13 at 12:49

Don't have to be financially invested to push a whack agenda, just emotionally invested.


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

I'm sure the extra two million deaths was a simple oversight - who would notice?

Of course, the National Cemetery might have needed a slight expansion - perhaps the whole of Arlington County, if they pack them in tight.


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

Only in America do we justify murder by citing rape. What in the world is wrong with doing something about part of our violent culture? We are not going to be able to fix this bloody mess we are in by saying-but other parts of our culture are just as bad or worse-good grief. If my house is burning down I should be happy because I didnt get flooded or blown away? Do not call the fire department, it is pointless since there is a Hurricane coming. We desparetly need to address our culture of violence but no one law or change is going to do the job-take the first step.

And sure I will say it-lets ban hand guns. If only criminals have guns then think of the huge savings in lives. If I am going to be shot at least it wont be by someone near and dear.

Here is a nice local story-just this past week a young woman was shot in the head by her boyfriend. They had gone camping. He had a gun for defense(?). They were bedded down for the night and he stuffed the gun under his pillow and it went off.


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

I certainly agree, Patriciae. ENOUGH with the distractions. Yes, the GUNS made to kill and maim people and sold to the public are the PROBLEM. Other civilized nations ban them. Must we re-invent every wheel? (We're so *special*.)


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

elvis: But it is a valid analogy

Really? Did you miss this by facto:

can someone steal someone else's tool and use it to rape someone?

IMO, that invalidates your analogy.


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

Oh, poop. You get the idea big time.


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

Oh, poop. You get the idea big time.

Um, what?

Does that mean you agree your analogy falls apart?


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

Last Friday, 4 people were murdered by guns in Oakland.


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

I've been working on home improvement projects around the house this January.

I'll say this...concertina wire, claymore mines, trip flares, and machine gun entrenchments don't come cheap! But at least my family will be safe....once the bomb shelter is finished.

-Ron-


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

"I notice that you just joined here a few days ago and all your posts are in gun threads.

Are you being compensated for posting here?"

Are *you* being compensated for posting here? You're not exactly an old-timer either.

See how easy it is to cast aspersions on people who disagree with you? The path of least resistance. I didn't figure you for someone who would indulge in lazy thinking like that. I like that you prefer to deal largely in facts, hence your name.

But here you have revealed your hand and entirely strayed into irrelevant territory. After all, what does it matter how long someone has been here before they start participating? How long is long enough? Fresh blood is good, and it's hard to see why someone would question your motives for being new too (although I'm sure they have).

This forum is not meant to be a clique, but a fairly open forum. The irony is very amusing - to watch those who claim to be so liberal and so caring about their fellow humans almost instantly pigpile a new person and try to chase them away. It's very predictable and happens to just about every person who is new.

If a person was a paid shill, I bet they would post on boards that are of far more consequence than GW's HT. As fun and interesting as HT is, I doubt it is being scanned by operatives as politically or socially significant. Let's not overestimate our own importance.


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

Let's not overestimate our own importance.

*

'Ya think? ;)

Good post, Lionheart.


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

lionheart wrote,

"I notice that you just joined here a few days ago and all your posts are in gun threads.
Are you being compensated for posting here?"

Are *you* being compensated for posting here? You're not exactly an old-timer either.

You seem not to have read my post with care, even though you quoted it. That's sloppy.

As I stated, JessicaR not only registered just a few days ago, all the posts of hers that I have seen (there maybe others) were on the topic of gun control (expressing opinions on the anti-gun-control side).

As a even a cursory check would show, I have posted on numerous topics and rarely expressed an opinion. Therefore, my posting pattern is inconsistent with that of a paid issue shill.

See how easy it is to cast aspersions on people who disagree with you? The path of least resistance. I didn't figure you for someone who would indulge in lazy thinking like that. I like that you prefer to deal largely in facts, hence your name.

Incorrect on several counts. I did not cast an aspersion; I asked a question. Casting an aspersion would be something of the form, "JessicaR, you don't fool anyone here; you're obviously a paid shill for the NRA." Similarly, when you now ask me if I am paid to post here, I don't take that as an aspersion, because you have made no accusation; I think your question is eminently fair (I am not paid to post here, for the record).

But here you have revealed your hand and entirely strayed into irrelevant territory. After all, what does it matter how long someone has been here before they start participating? How long is long enough? Fresh blood is good, and it's hard to see why someone would question your motives for being new too (although I'm sure they have).

Same point as above; you didn't read what I wrote with the care necessary to understand it. It is the coupling of JessicaR's registration timing with the issue she has been posting on that prompt the question. Newness, in and of itself, is irrelevant. So what you have done here is constructed a straw man argument and attribute it to me, and then attacked it. That is an invalid approach to discussion, as I'm sure you can appreciate, because it is based on a fallacy.

This forum is not meant to be a clique, but a fairly open forum. The irony is very amusing - to watch those who claim to be so liberal and so caring about their fellow humans almost instantly pigpile a new person and try to chase them away.

Multiple straw man arguments here. You attribute to me a claim I have not made -- that I am "so liberal"; that claim is false, though given the recent pattern here I have dim hope of a retraction. You then claim there has been a "pigpile" on JessicaR and an attempt to chase her away. That claim is also false. So, once again, you fabricate claims and actions and attribute them to others so you can attack them. If you have to fabricate your perceived opponents' positions to mount an attack, might that imply that without employing that fallacious technique, you have little left to go after?

It's very predictable and happens to just about every person who is new.

Straw man, etc.

If a person was a paid shill, I bet they would post on boards that are of far more consequence than GW's HT. As fun and interesting as HT is, I doubt it is being scanned by operatives as politically or socially significant. Let's not overestimate our own importance.

Actually, paid shills may post on any board discussing the topic for which they are compensated, given the ease with which posts can be launched. They need not choose just one forum to frequent. And, of course, their audience is not limited to the members of the board, but includes search engines.


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

The perfect example of the difference between conservatives and liberals on this board.

Yes, conservative/liberal label is making some assumptions but probably accurate based on their posts.

facto (liberal) asks Jessica (conservative) a question.

No response.

Lionheart (conservative) criticize facto (liberal) for even asking the question. How dare facto (liberal) attack Jessica (conservative) for disagreeing with them!? Not sure how lionheart knows facto disagress with Jessica. facto certainly states the facts but doesn't talk about their opinion from what I've seen.

Lionheart (conservative) asks facto (liberal) a question.

facto answers question.

See how simple things can be if you're just upfront and answer the question.


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It's up to 1045 now.....

  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Sun, Jan 20, 13 at 13:18

..and add five (5) more, including three (3) more children.

How sad

Here is a link that might be useful: Shooting in New Mexico


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RE: Gun-death tally since Newtown - 1013 as of 1/17/13

Fat chance in a skillet...


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