And don't cheat by searching it!

We have a government for a reason if we want to go back to caveman times then what is the point of using the word government. Call it what it is....Self.

Self-government is every man for himself. Not my idea of America.

I can kind of understand your animosity toward it, though. If the apathy being spoken of here didn't exist, You wouldn't see the people in Washington that you do now, and too many are comfortable with how things are. I'm not one of those.

Only a true narcissist would consider that self-government.

Think about it, bill. What does "self" mean?

I am not comfortable how things are now. I am comfortable with the concept of America and what it was intended to do and worked in the past.

I did not get involved or suddenly pay attention to government when we got the first African American President.

My observation is many that discuss government, policies, what policies are good for them, their neighbor, their children have no idea what our government does or how it works. Starting at that point how do some decide it should be torn apart to be replaced with what?

I know a depressing number of people who don't vote. Basically, they're so caught up in their day-to-day lives: earning a living, dealing with health issues, 20-somethings and college kids way more preoccupied hunting for spouses and/or getting an education, then the flood of people moving to new jobs who don't bother to register, etc. And they don't seem to realize that what goes on politically already has an enormous effect on their lives, let alone what is coming down the pike.

CP-- it's not the government that's sacred-- it's democracy.

campanula-- it just might be a dream. But I keep going on record here in town criticizing the voters here, hoping it;ll wake people up. I posted this same quote in its entirety on my facebook page. A liberal friend of mine answered with "We CAN find common ground", and this was my reply to her:
yes, we can. But first "we" have to get involved. Nobody gives a crap any more. They give lipservice (read that as bi*ch and moan) when things don't go their way, but they're not willing to get involved and DO something about it! Every 4 years here in town, we'll get about a 60-70% turnout for the presidential election. Other than that, we're lucky to break 10%. Last summer, 110 people, out of over 3 THOUSAND voters here in town, voted on the different warrants of the new town budget. Only 3 HUNDRED voted in the election the week before, that included two selectboard members. There ought to be a law-- if you don't vote, you HAVE to SHUT THE **** UP!!

And voting is just the beginning. People need to get up off their butts and do more than provide lipservice. If you're going to talk the talk, WALK THE WALK!

And yes, I do. I'm about as involved here in town as I can be, and I'll be headed up to Augusta in a week to speak at the state house re a gun bill coming up. Susan Collins already knows my name, and ol Angus is about to meet me.

Oh-- I didn't post the quote in its entirety because I WAS loooking for common ground. I should've known better. here's the whole quote:

“The real curse in America today is not Barack Obama and Eric Holder and Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden and Richard Daley and Rahm Emanuel,” Nugent said. “They’re not the real punks. The real curse in America is apathetic, disconnected, uncaring, unconscionable Americans who dare not engage in this unique, sacred experiment in self-government.”
Ted Nugent

Anyway, the turnout in this last election should be at least somewhat encouraging. We may still be way below a lot of other countries, but you have to admit the nation was unusually engaged this time around.

I can't abide Ted Nugent but in the context of that comment it seems to me he was referring to those who do not engage in the democratic system.

I don't know that I would have used such strong language but I do believe that apathy and inaction are a real issue in both our countries.

We tend to complain much and do little especially when it comes to truly understand the issues. I think that's what I find most discouraging is how so many just take in what they are fed, and regurgitate it without truly digesting the information. Or just throw out meaningless one liners that have not much to do with anything.

Ding!

>throw out meaningless one liners<

Hey-y-y!!

Not even a little bit. Next year, the poll numbers will be right back down where they were last year.

Then why does the GOP try to suppress the vote whenever they see a chance?

Right-- those black folks hanging out side polling stations in the fatigues were GOP.
Democrats are just as guilty.

so many just take in what they are fed, and regurgitate it

Only when it makes sense. Which is why I've never repeated anything from you.

Defining what is a true blue good American of admirable qualities

The urging is mostly coming from the rightist minority rather than centrist or liberal elements -- taking back our country

Promoting the sense that voter suppression is not bad -- true blue Americans are admirably prepared for the franchise.

Right-- those black folks hanging out side polling stations in the fatigues were GOP.
Democrats are just as guilty.

What does that have to do with anything? Listen...I am in a state that tried the voter suppression thing and even the freaking governor admitted it was a mistake. So I don't need your anecdotes about how it was really the dems who suppressed the vote through intimidation. You are just making scheiss up now.

Listen-- well if it didn't happen in YOUR state, then it must not have happened at all, right? Like I said, it wasn't just the GOP. But you don't give a crap about it UNLESS it was the GOP. In other words, it's a finger pointing thing, and not a real concern of yours.

If you can't argue calmly and not lose your temper, then I'm done with this topic. Go find someone else to berate.

"True blue" means steadfastly loyal. So, what do you mean, Marshall?

Either way, what does Uncle Ted have to do AT ALL with voter suppression? If anything, you and him are on the very same page in that respect! So why the argument? Unless you just happen to be in the mood for it? And yes, NOW I'm berating you.

CP, not itching for a fight at all. I found a statement from someone who many here think his cheese slipped off his cracker a long time ago, and in many ways, that may be an accurate statement. But in this ONE STATEMENT, I thought it interesting that something he said would be something this whole forum, or atleast most of it, could get behind, being that most of us are VERY insterested in where our government (local, state, AND fed) is going, and being that atleast MOST of us are VERY concerned with the voter apathy that affects this whole country-- not just Bridgton, Maine. Imagine my surprise when I got a fight! And then yeah, my back went up. Especially with the fight I'm getting from JG. I don't understand that one at all.

campanula-- it sure seems that way, no matter where you stand politically speaking.

I see a big connection between the two....you can't complain about apathy and then support governments that suppress the vote.

One black panther standing at one polling place in Philadelphia holding the door for people does not constitute voter suppression no matter what Fox News says.

Well, that's interesting, considering that the quote concerns Americans, and we haven't been around for "many centuries".

?

My new all-time favorite sentence on Hot Topics.

People like JG will always be the problem, when they think they have the solution. American people are being used, and abused, by both parties....and people that can't see it are what's really bringing us down.

BUT, Bill.

That's not the full quote.

BTW, Ted Nugent is a pile of human excrement. A more disgusting human being, I have never seen. Is that the best you can quote?

Yeah, I am loving it too!

After your last statement, I won't waste my "breath". Except to say my feelings are about the same for Obama. And Feinstein.

American people are being used, and abused, by both parties....and people that can't see it are what's really bringing us down.

Exactly right.

....so the way to change this is? Cause if you still vote but throw it away on someone who has not a snowballs chance in heck of not being elected, that is about as effective as working out with a box of donuts in one hand.

You want change? Please explain to me how you plan to accomplish this.

I'm the problem???? You want to start off your first post in HT by insulting someone?

You want change? Please explain to me how you plan to accomplish this.

The protection of the minority from the majority mob was one of the founding fathers' greatest concerns. They understood the issue of stampeded mob rule as one of the flaws of democracy.

I've often thought that with democracy as a system, you are expecting that adding up a lot of zeros will come to an intelligent answer/solution. I'd really be in favor of a poll test that requires a potential voter to answer a couple of simple questions about current problems (randomized from 20 0r 30, so you can't just memorize). If you can't do that much learning, you don't get to help decide the answers.

Of course I'm being unrealistic here, but I could dream. So low turn out doesn't really bother me that much as long as the process is open to any citizen who wants to put the effort in.

My original point was that we as a nation need to evolve. We need to get away from this idea of complete blind hatred of the other side.

Sitting on the sidelines and screaming that one side is guilty of voter suppression, and refusing to see it on the other side, is....well, hm....trying to think of a word that won't get me kicked off.

And voter suppression is only one issue in a myriad of others.

...and the beat goes on

To automatically discount someone because they have an R or a D behind their name is foolish...but thats how the majority of americans vote.

I have even been surprised by some who formerly prided themselves on being voices of moderation. They have simply exposed themselves as being much more extreme and having much more internal anger than I ever suspected. I suppose it was always simmering under the surface but apparently the lure of the "sore loser syndrome" was just too much for them to avoid. And where is their anger directed? Always at Obama, then at Al Sharpton and now at the two person Black Panther/Milli Vanilli party.

Trust me, prodding certain posters here is not going to accomplish anything or satisfy any attempt at political revenge. Instead, what I suggest to those seething with anger over four more years of President Obama, is that they become more politically introspective and less provocative with their posts.

Perhaps they can begin that internal healing process by questioning their Right Wing information and the sources for that info. How is it that FOX told you that Romney had this election all wrapped up when in fact, he got trounced? They made a fool out of you, didn't they? What else have they misrepresented to you? Don't you wonder now, just a little bit, or do you still believe propaganda and bulsh1t like the Black Panther incident had the significance and impact that was attributed to it by Fox?

Ted Nugent's idea of self governance is not far from that of David Koresh and Warren Jeffs. Their views attract those who have a bunker mentality or a paranoia about government. It is popular among armed religious zealots and political extremists.
For me, that is a cause for concern. Didn't Nugent promise to leave the country or something if President Obama was re-elected? Please, get out and take your nasty guitar playing and assault weapons with you.

TEA PARTY..............
The Tea Party movement is an American political movement that advocates strict adherence to the United States Constitution, reducing U.S. government spending and taxes, and reduction of the U.S. national debt and federal budget deficit. The movement is generally considered to be partly conservative, partly libertarian, and partly populist. The movement has sponsored protests and supported political candidates since 2009.

The theme of the Boston Tea Party, an iconic event in American history, has long been used by anti-tax protesters. It was part of Tax Day protests held throughout the 1990s and earlier. By 2001, a custom had developed among some conservative activists of mailing tea bags to legislators and other officials as an act of symbolism.

BLACK PANTHER.......
The Black Panther Party was a progressive political organization that stood in the vanguard of the most powerful movement for social change in America since the Revolution of 1776 and the Civil War: that dynamic episode generally referred to as The Sixties.

Thanks, heri.

And there is a big difference between a private group which is 50 years past its prime (the 1960s) and consists of only a couple Black Panthers holding the door for voters to pass through versus our elected Republican State officials passing laws in several states just this past year to squelch, throughout the entire state, the minority voters that the Republicans know are likely to vote AGAINST the Republicans--and then the elected State officials bragging before the public that with those laws they pushed through, they have successfully reduced the Democratic vote and ensured a Republican win!

Some of you cannot see the difference? Time for your annual eye test! Or maybe IQ test.

In the meantime, I've been having quite a chortle at how seriously the Republican State officials mis-calculated the voting public! Hee, hee!

Kate

I didn't come here immediately after then election to gloat. I wasn't going to do it, because I seriously would have been beyond depressed if R&R won, so I had empathy. BUT...with all the newbies and all the crap being tossed, now I'm starting to love it . You guy were bamboozled weren't you? You seriously thought Americans bought the rich robot you set up? And the other clowns who were in the primaries? Turns out there are more of us than you, it seems.

I wonder how many votes the voter suppression alone cost you. Dont you realize that Americans tend to get irritable if politicians try to stop them from voting?

This kind of hysterical blindness makes it all the more probable that in the voting booth, the republican voters ( who cost you the election) were again reminded of the fact that their reps, supported by the voters, were so ineffective and because were so blinded by unfounded hate, that enough of conservatives voted, yet *again*, for a democrat rather than to see the party as it exists today, win the Presidency.

IOW, they weren't picking up what too many of you folks were putting down. Still aren't.

You, the conservative voter - and your party squandered four entire years by digging ever deeper and clutching ever tighter onto the message of division rather than a new and inclusive plan for the advancement for ALL the people in this country.

And what is the reaction after yet another loss to gain the votes?

To dig even deeper, clutch even harder, howl ever louder in your impotent frustration.

Time's awasting....again! Which is very, very good news to life long, devoted democrats. Something I am not.

Adapt. Or be left behind.

Good post, Heri.

I was with you till the jobs part. Most tea partiers HAVE jobs.

Okay since "people like JG" will always be the problem, I asked above and will continue to ask till this thread reaches max whatcha gonna do?
You want change? Please explain to me how you plan to accomplish this.

Good question. if two sides of any dispute BOTH don't want to work to find compromise, then it won't work. Case in point, this thread. I posted this in the first place, because I thought it was something everyone could agree on. Granted, I found it amusing that it came from someone who at best is controversial, but nonetheless. But rather than agree, all then "JG's" of the forum have done whatever they possibly can to find every negative connotation and insinuation they could come up with.

As MrsK said up above-- I might as well give it up. I could say the sky is blue, and someone is going to lambaste me for even CONSIDERING the thought. So you're right-- nothing will be done. When in Rome.... so I'll do like everyone else in here, and be just as absolutely abrasive and disagreeable to "the OTHER people" as I can be.

"United we stand...." is a cliche for a reason.

This is a debate forum - why would you even want me to agree with you? Why wouldn't I find negative connotations since I don't agree with the statement? Or perhaps you didn't think that my responses were up to par? What were you expecting exactly?

Like I said-- when in Rome. Atleast while in here, I'll no longer even try. You want abrasive and argumentative? You've got it.

I do not find fault with opinions simply because they are expressed by one political group or another....just ask Heri what he thinks of my opinions!

That is not true and you know it. It's because I don't AGREE with most conservative positions and that's because, newsflash, I am not a conservative. And sometimes I don't agree with what liberals say...is it really such a big deal?

Or vice versa.

...funny because I had the same thought recently on another thread, it was a subject that I thought would pretty much have "most" of the forum members in agreement on until ONE conservative argued the point and the rest jumped in that person's boat.

Look at another recent thread where there was no animosity until the OP came back and accused posters of name calling, which is odd since there was NO name calling.

Compromise does not mean your way or the highway....

The statement could also be turned around and be equally valid: The real curse in the U.S. is that government fails to capture the imagination and passions of large segments of the society; they can see no improvement even if they were to engage in the process.

The media and law enforcement reaction to OWS, and the Citizens United decision reinforce the above.

I started off by saying that in my heart I don't really believe in complete democracy as a system because I don't think that people who are willfully ignorant of the questions (not the choice of answers) should have the right to vote. I think that you should have to invest in learning about the facts of the problems you are facing (the choice of solutions is what we are voting on). I didn't offer any other limitations on the right to vote, including age, sex, income, or race.

Back in the last years of the draft, the age of voting was changed on the basis of if I'm old enough to die for my country, why am I not old enough to vote in my country. Made sense for those drafted, but what about everyone else?

Now why is 18 the magic number? I should think in a real democracy that as soon as you are old enough to answer questions about the issues, you should have a say in the choice of solutions or representative.

What's your rationale for the choice of 18 for the vote?

What's wrong with that?

Expecting a broadly educated and informed electorate is a fine goal, but in this age of political propaganda with media controlled by relatively few corporations, public opinions and voting patterns are strongly swayed. Truth and reason need not apply to one's voting decisions.

Arguments about apt lower voting age are a waste of time.

Why is 18 the magic number to be prosecuted as an adult for crimes committed?

"I'd really be in favor of a poll test that requires a potential voter to answer a couple of simple questions about current problems (randomized from 20 0r 30, so you can't just memorize). If you can't do that much learning, you don't get to help decide the answers."

This raises an interesting question. is voting a
1)right
2)privilege
or
3)responsibity

we tend to view it as a responsibity in Australia , where it is compulsory

I dont think voting should be viewed as something only people of a certain IQ getto do...because , after all , all citizens have to suffer the consequences of bad Government.
18 is the age for Australians to vote and to legally drink alcohol

Around here, about half the residents are "old timers" whose families date several generations, and the other half are new comers. In town, the proportion of 'new comers' to 'old timers' is balanced enough that both groups are represented on the assorted boards and councils and what not.

But out in the county, and for county-wide office, its a whole other matter. New comers don't stand a chance. Everybody running for everything from county commissioner to seats on the electric coop / water coop / irrigation coop / cemetery district etc. always start off by stating how long they and their family has lived in the county. Occasionally some civic-minded new comer will try, but since they *might* (start a rumor) be secret environmentalists or closet gun-stealin' libruls, they are always soundly defeated. Always.

At the beginning, this bothered me, but after a while, I've come to appreciate it. There is a whole history of human relations that go back generations that a new comer isn't going to have a clue about, but thats what still dictates how things work. There are family feuds, relations, and reliances that go back generations. If your great grand dad bought out my great grand dad for taxes during the Depression, there is nothing you or yours will ever get my support on.

Many of us do not live in small towns. My county is the most populous in the U.S. and is as political as it gets even though the offices are all supposed to be non-partisan. If you're connected to a big developer, or some corporation that does business with the county, you'll have no problems as a candidate. On the other side are the unions, progressive organizations, and community organizers and organizations.

Locally some of the launching pads for politicians are the L.A. Community College Board -- Jerry Brown started there -- or the L.A. City Board of Education (although in recent years school board elections have become increasingly political as mayors want to impose their policies on the schools). City council elections are hard-fought battles, and the race to replace Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa began about two years ago.

Careful, nancy-- another statement I agree completely with.

chase""""""" I do believe that apathy and inaction are a real issue in both our countries."
Chase I have to agree but I will take it one step further and say the the apathy and inaction is substantially present not only regarding government but in all aspects of society. I feel that our society is diseased and until it heals itself we are headed down hill.

I believe it's maddie who calls conservatives "regressives". I am proud of the progress my country has made in many areas but I admit I would love to see some things "regress".......back to the time when it was taught that unwed children having children, that they are unable to support financial or emotionally , was wrong instead of being accepted as normal which in my opinion encourages ..... back to the time when kids were taught morals, values and the importance of character........back to the time when kids were taught respect for all life and for other's possessions..........back to the time when kids were taught that there are consequences to their actions; that they are responsible for their actions and choices and will be penalized for same if needed. Too many kids today are never taught morals, values, or respect. Too many parents can't be bothered to parent. Many parents offer no consequences for the smaller things perpetrated by their "little darlins" and don't want anyone else to correct them so little things escalate into bigger things. A young society which hasn't been taught any better knows no better when it is grown. It appears to me that many parents out there are passing the indifference to government, as well as to the decorum needed for a healthy society on to their offspring and they to theirs and on and on. I feel that instilling respect and responsibility and the rules of society and government to our children and teaching them that there are repercussions and consequences (and enforcing those consequences) to their actions is more important than using something like this last shooting as a political agenda to get rid of guns. The problem runs sooooo much deeper than the guns. If children are taught the importance of morals, values, character, taking part in your government, etc, regardless to which party they belong, society and our government will benefit and improve.

Please excuse any spelling, punctuation or grammar errors. I am suffering from sleep deprivation and my mind isn't too sharp right now. My Dad has been in the hospital since Nov. 18 and someone needed to be with him 24/7 as his mind was not clear; he pulled two PICC lines and I think three IV's (before the PICC) out and was constantly trying to pull out his catheter and take off his oxygen as well as getting angry and fighting the nurses. All this with someone constantly monitoring him. I took a few weeks off work to stay with him nights and my Mom stayed during the day; other siblings take part of the weekends as they all live 70 miles or more away. My parents live about 70 miles also but my Mom has been going to my house at night to rest. Dad is in rehab now and doing some better but still has a long way to go. On top of that, my Mom tripped over an oxygen tube Tuesday and fell at the rehab center. Thank God she seems to be OK except for some horrible bruising. She is getting x-rays done today. My parents will be 86 this year and we are blessed to still have them but no matter how long you have them it is never easy to face giving them up. I'm back at work and for the first time in a long time have had a chance to look at the Forum. Sorry to bend you ears with this info and I'm sure there are a few on here who couldn't care less but just wanted you to know that I am still around..........even with the dull mind. :^) A belated Happy New Year to everyone.

AND YOU!!

I wish more people realised this.

Here's another thoughtful one:

"Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it."
Pericles

"Just because you have a dick, doesn't mean you can act like one."

Julius Caesar

I'm not far behind you considering the issues my mother has had these last few months and is having now.

I hope all of us that have taken better care of ourselves than our parents did, reap some benefits from our efforts of exercising, eating right, and staying active.

-Ron-