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The Pope resigns..

Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
Mon, Feb 11, 13 at 7:47

Very interesting. Many good links out there in the ether.

It must be tough, at 85, to HAVE to be that busy. And if you are not well, it must be miserable.

I wish him the best

Here is a link that might be useful: Link


Follow-Up Postings:

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I know that advancing age and declining health make an even easy job difficult, but I am glad to see him go because of his policies--his complicity in the sex abuse scandals and his attacks on Catholic nuns have made me sick. Problem is that the Catholic church will probably not elect anyone who is any more in touch with actual Catholic reality than this one has been.


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But there is at least a chance that they will. Could they elect anyone worst (as far as being in touch)?


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I didn't know a Pope could quit!!!!!!

I'm glad he has though, wrong man for the job day one!


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2 weeks notice for an organization that does slow & deliberate, curiouser & curiouser.
Perhaps he didn't like the portrayal in the HBO Documentary Mea Culpa.. I literally cried on & off through the whole thing.


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I believe they could yet do much worse.

Benedict has been awful, he's been positively medieval in his dogmas, but he has been almost completely overt. He's an idealogue, and a corrupted one, but a bad politician who has not inspired affection in even his own people.

I think overt malignancy is always preferable to the discreet kind.

May God spare his soul and mine, but I have never yet had the courage to really look into what John Paul II's level of knowledge and involvement in the abuse scandals were, simply because he did make such a beloved Pope. My grandparents--Eastern European Catholics--adored him. I have not done so, because I do already know he wasn't innocent, and that is enough for me to condemn him without knowing further particulars. Mee-ma and Pa-pa would have been horrified, I am so glad they were passed away before it all broke.

And yet look at the image he had presented. A liberal (by Catholic standards) loving grandfather.

Plus, he stayed Pope a long time.

Yeah, I think they could do worse than Benedict.


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There is a precedent. Needless to say, one must go back to 1415 and Gregory XII stepping aside in an attempt to heal the Great Western Schism.
The Church is so used to burying Popes, I suppose it'll be odd having Benedict ensconced in a nice Vatican apartment with all the perks but none of the work. I wish him well, but I'm not sorry to see him NOT be Pope.

Discussion on Morning Joe was pretty brief; some speculation this might be a last gasp to elect an Italian Pope before casting a wider, more inclusive net to the Philippines, Africa, perhaps even the US.


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  • Posted by vgkg 7-Va Tidewater (My Page) on
    Mon, Feb 11, 13 at 9:36

Oh Boy! One step closer to the next doomsday! Hope they pick a young Pope as according to predictions he will be the last one. Survivalists all over the world are back in the saddle again.


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TG, my family felt the same way about Pope John Paul II; he was born in the same village/town as my paternal grandmother. His conservatism and anti-communism fit right in with the bulk of my family's ideology and theology. That generation of family is all deceased now. They would have approved of Benedict's conservatism and probably accepted the corruption as just the Church's enemy propaganda.

The Church as been suppressing the evils of pedophilia among the clergy long before I was an altar boy. The worst of the offenders seem to have been among the itinerant priest serving in place of ill or vacationing parish priest. Since Vatican II, fewer and fewer priests have been serving, meaning that more pedophiles had the opportunity for permanent placements, at least until the complaints of child abuse became too great.


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Well, that fishes' head has been rotting for a long, long time, and the stink is on all of the top men. I wouldn't place too much money on them electing a "reformer" to "clean up" the young boy problem and the nun problem. Not to mention the other problems.

Maybe the next one is just supposed to ensure there is no dust on the mantel as the house collapses around him.


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For me he did one good thing & that was the official denunciation of Marcial Maciel Degollado. A criminal that was protected by the previous administration's Sodano.
Sodano has not gone away the former Secretary of State popped up in the power struggle with Tarcisio Bertone.
The Butler gave us a glimpse of this!


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Well, Benedict is said to have loaded the Curia and other high positions with conservative prelates. Why expect any changes of significance? Where is labrea and his deeper knowledge of such things? I long ago gave up on the one-true-most-holier-than-thou-Roman-Catholic-Church.

Oops! Labrea and I cross-posted.

This post was edited by marshallz10 on Mon, Feb 11, 13 at 11:05


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Here comes an Italian or third world pope who will be more regressive than even this guy. The church will shrink even further until a hardcore remains that will keep dusting the mantle while the house crumbles.


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By loading the curia he was hoping to break it's power.
The Curia is ancient & as sticky as fly paper. People in positions of power in overlapping departments wield great influence.
The example of Marcial Maciel Degollado is an extreme example, a morphine addict a sexual abuser with children from several mistresses. Multiple complaints filed against him for years and never a follow up. He even brought 2 of his illegitimate sons to the Vatican. He brought in millions & was very connected.
Once the lat pope died & his Secretary of State & protector was retired to a very nice palace Ratzinger moved on him & it looked like there was a chance he would break up the powers that be. He didn't succeed. Sodano still has influence with those that remain behind.
One article I read once said that he can't even keep his personal mail private from his (opposition)


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What a den of snakes...

Much like Marshallz, I left behind the organization of religion... but I went one further and left behind the entire idea of religion, the Catholic Church and science proving to me that a god can't exist.

I couldn't guess what might be the future of such an organization... but they're certainly not making the idea of religion a palatable one.


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Stunned!
I have been very busy this Monday morning and only just now turned on the television and heard this. My initial thought was that they were running him out and why? But after reading only a little I can see that that would be highly unlikely as "they" are creatures of his own design and because he has talked about the distinct possibility of his resignation in the past

I wonder this, on the very, very few areas where he is considered infallible, would this infallibility follow him into his retirement?

It will be extremely unlikely since they all have carefully been cut from the same cloth Ratzinger himself carefully wove, but I would think it would be for the continued good health of the church coffers were they to appoint a man who would try to advance the church into this century since they failed so miserably advancing into the last.

Adapt or be left behind.


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I hope they elect a young pope with more of a philosophy of this century than the last or the Catholic church will soon be irrelevant.


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Maybe I have watched to many Godfather movies but this seems so out of Catholic Character.

This has not happened in 719 years. They have gone to the end of the earth to hide their young boy problems. Age would be the last thing I would think as a reason for the Pope to resign.

It is going to be interesting to see what happens i,e, who is next in line and any changes that the church may think needs to be put in place to move into this century.


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Before the "Truth Squad" hits and demands its pound of flesh in many many posts - it's been 598 years... Gregory XII stepped down in 1415. :-)

Celestine V abdicated in 1294 - admitting his own incompetence - and returned to his solitary cave.

There will be something in common with Benedict XVI; Celestine was the first to see the conclave picking his own successor and Benedict will be the second to do so.

Benedict will have a mixed legacy. He promised reform, but that pretty much entailed nothing more than perhaps a new broom to sweep the abuses under the carpet.

Be interesting to see if a new Pope takes a different stance on the role of nuns. The "too much poverty and not enough sanctity" business drives me batty. Who better than those actually on the front lines to understand the true meaning of social and economic justice?


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or the Catholic church will soon be [completely] irrelevant.

Good. We went back home for a catholic wedding last year. My wife and I were flabbergasted how this institution is kept afloat. About half the family back there clings to this outdated institution on Sunday, and for the rest of the week carries on in the 21st century.


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A youthful philosophy cannot change dogma or thick layers of cannon law. Collective departments within the Vatican can bring about changes & even then very slowly.
Ratzinger brought in a lot of Americans to try to counter balance theIItalian & 3rd World Influences.


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  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Mon, Feb 11, 13 at 15:37

>Ratzinger brought in a lot of Americans to try to counter balance theIItalian & 3rd World Influences<

Michael Corleone tried that years ago.


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When you pack the Curia like that, Ratzinger is very likely to get a conservative more or less in his image and likeness. His work is done!

As of Monday, February 11, 2013, there are 211 Cardinals,
119 of whom are eligible to vote and 92 of whom are ineligible.

Interesting enough - the Cardinal Electors are the members of the College of Cardinals who have not reached their 80th. birthday. Over 80 and they can't vote, but they can be elected - probably spend the next few weeks arm twisting.


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A little better educated than Michael Correlone & not a fictional character.
Though the Vatican Bank may have laundered some real gangsta money. Who are we kidding of course they did!


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For shame! The Institute for Religious Works (catchy name for a bank) hanging it's deposits out to dry. Where are rich Italians going to put their money now when the tax man cometh?

Read something about the bank shutting down credit card purchases. Unhappy folks/tourists on a cash and carry basis unless the ban has been recently lifted.


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My Bet Canadian Cardinal Marc Ouellet if not one of The Nigerians.
Arch Conservative intellectual. Prefect for the Congregation of Bishops (in short he's a bishop maker for the Popes approval) Most of his picks have been quite conservative. He believes the 2nd Vatican Council was interpreted too liberally.


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Joe said,
"He believes the 2nd Vatican Council was interpreted too liberally."

*ROTFL*

May I borrow that line when in my private conversations with friends, it's SO rich! :)

I promise I will give you credit.

Especially if 'someone' ends up being especially fundi Catholics and lodges an objection
* snork*
( Don't think I know any anymore, but.....ya never know!)

Love it!


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The Onion nails it ...

VATICAN CITY - Citing his advancing age and deteriorating health, Pope Benedict XVI announced his resignation from the papacy Monday, saying he no longer possessed the strength and energy required to lead the Catholic Church backward.

Here is a link that might be useful: The onion


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I'm not one for religion, but how about they elect a pope with some morals this time! Good grief!


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Pot shots aside this Church more than nominally represents quite a few people. This current pope re installed 4 excommunicated Bishops who were considered hostile to Vatican 2 & it's goals.
The 4 were all from the society Society of St. Pius X, which was founded by a French archbishop, Marcel Lefebvre, in 1970 as a protest against the modernizing reforms of the Second Vatican Council, also called Vatican II. Archbishop Lefebvre made the men bishops in unsanctioned consecrations in Switzerland in 1988, prompting the immediate excommunication of all five by Pope John Paul II.

This was a wrestling match. Liberal is the notion of what Ratzinger saw as moral relativism within the the Church's intellectual circles..


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The 4 were all from the society Society of St. Pius X, which was founded by a French archbishop, Marcel Lefebvre, in 1970 as a protest against the modernizing reforms

Papa Ratzinger also welcomed Anglican priests angered by the ordination of women and Gene Robinson, an openly gay bishop, and the blessing of same-sex unions.

Vatican reveals plan to welcome disaffected Anglicans

In a move with potentially sweeping implications for relations between the Catholic church and some 80 million Anglicans worldwide, the Vatican has announced the creation of new ecclesiastical structures to absorb disaffected Anglicans wishing to become Catholics. The structures will allow those Anglicans to hold onto their distinctive spiritual practices, including the ordination of married former Anglican clergy as Catholic priests.


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Next Pope will come from Western Hemisphere-Canada or Argentina. Quite a shock- i thought Pope was a job for life, until death.


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For non Catholics by the Parker Brothers rules Bishops have the power to consecrate priests. So a renegade Bishop can consecrate away.
When the Anglican Church broke with Rome it's Cardinals & Bishops still had the full authority to consecrate priests the same as the Old Catholic Church.
The Old Catholic Church broke with the Papacy over instituting the Dogma of Papal Infallibility.
They are in full Communion with the Anglican Church.
The Defined Dogma of infallibility is fairly recent as this Church goes The First Vatican Council 1869-1870 finally defined what had been understood before but was not considered DOGMA.

To deny any excathedra position is to be willfully separate form the body of Christ as expressed through the Church.

Papa's personal opinion may be considered false on multiple subjects form the Superbowl to his wardrobe. Infallibility is very specific terms based on scripture, tradition on faith & morals.


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RE: The Pope resigns

Well, it won't be a tough act to follow, that's for sure. This is of course highly unusual, but IMO courageous of the pope because it IS so unusual.

Good for him;, he's messed up royally, from the pedophilia scandals to undoing well-deserved excommunications, he's not the man for the job and he apparently has figured that out.

I hope they select a good one and best of luck to him.


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Does anyone really believe he's leaving due to ill health?

This is akin to to the press release when an executive retires to spend more time with his family. LOL

It sure follows quickly upon the heels of his butler's activities. The sexual scandals are just ongoing -- hardly news there.

IMO he was always interim, but I have no idea for whom he was the place holder. I'm not of this 'faith'; certainly not of this dogma.

We need a Shakespeare to whip this up into a play.


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I suppose that his reason may be as stated, but I'm a cynic. People seldom cede significant power willingly under any circumstances.

I assume that either others have consolidated their power and forced the resignation, or it's necessary damage control because "another shoe is about to drop" internally, externally or both.

It's also possible that he prefers his previous role which was quite powerful, but less visible and less subject to observation and criticism by the public.


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Ah he doesn't look good ! I am no fan of this crowd of Criminals but he doesn't look good.
I recommend HBO's Mea Culpa for anyone!


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FI put it into my search to record on the DVR - it doesn't show up as playing this week. I have several things I would like to record and run a search check about every five days - will certainly record this when I can catch a play time.

A documentary?


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Guess there is no chance of a lady getting the gig...


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It very well could be that there is another shoe to drop but I have a feeling, totally unsubstantiated, that he may have Alzheimer's. In his statement he referred to his deteriorating physical and mental health......seemed a bit odd to me to include his mental health.

" However, in today's world, subject to so many rapid changes and shaken by questions of deep relevance for the life of faith, in order to govern the bark of Saint Peter and proclaim the Gospel, BOTH STRENGTH OF MIND and body are necessary, strength which in the last few months, has deteriorated in me to the extent that I have had to recognize my incapacity to adequately fulfill the ministry entrusted to me. "

Edited to add the section of the statement that caught my attention.

This post was edited by chase on Tue, Feb 12, 13 at 8:27


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Guess there is no chance of a lady getting the gig...

Really?

I already sent in my resume... I was hoping this would be a smart career step.

Bummer.


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Chase, the same thought has occurred to me more than once since yesterday morning, regarding the possibility of some form of dementia.


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posted by lily316
"I hope they elect a young pope with more of a philosophy of this century than the last or the Catholic church will soon be irrelevant."

With all due respect, I think this is a very ethnocentric viewpoint.

The RC church is pretty canny about these things. What they have left of a following in the US, they intend to use shamelessly as a bank, and absolutley nothing else. Nor do they intend to do much but throw those few faithful US American Catholics a bone now and then when it comes to church needs and such.

Ah but Africa, Asia, and South America still have so many populations who are delightfully undereducated and not nearly so modern or aware they might deserve more.

That's where the Catholic church is investing thier mission efforts now, and they are not doing too badly at it either. The handful of RCs left in the West are just funding.

Don't forget, of the 2.1 to 2.3 billions Christians in the world, just over half are still Roman Catholics. That just isn't the Western experience.


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Ah look at that the Irish Bookmakers Paddy Power the folks who paid off on Obama a day before the US Elections aslo thinks it's the Canadian.Cardinal Marc Ouellet they are giving 5 to 2 odds on him. While other bookies believe it's Turkson of Ghana.
I think Ouliette has the edge because he's a theologian and because of his connections to Sodano the former Secretary of State for the Vatican who has not gone away peacefully.
He seems to have been at the center of continued power struggles within the Vatican.
Current Vatican Secretary of State Bertone was unusually candid when he claimed that the leaking of Papal Documents seemed "carefully aimed, and sometimes also ferocious, destructive and organised".

The Butler claimed he was trying to uncover the power struggles going on between te old guard & the new guard.


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Sodano the former Secretary of State for the Vatican who has not gone away peacefully.

La Repubblica reported that no one knew that that Papa Ratzinger's announcement was coming except Sodano. Today they say that his brother Georg knew, and rumors have been circulating the Vatican for months, but always denied. Three months ago the Pope underwent routine battery change for his pace maker. (Sheesh, is there nothing unimportant that they won't reveal?)

The resignation managed to push news of the Italian elections down page for a day. Today a business leader is indicted for 'international corruption' and tied to a party in Berlusconi's previous coalition.


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"Does anyone really believe he's leaving due to ill health?"

Puleese! Good excuse to bow out before decades of documents are combed over and any legal investigation explodes.

Women and ethics are not allowed within Vatican walls, Tobr. ;-)


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Yes I do believe ill health is part of it you have to be blind to not to see the far away gaze when a mike is put in front of him these days. He has a a look in his expression that reminds me of so many people I've met with Alzheimer.
He was also a voice that suggested the previous Pope resign.
Women are rare in power appointments
Mary Ann Glendon, a USI Professor was president of the Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences. In 1995, she led the Holy See's delegation to the UN world conference on women in Beijing. She was the former US ambassador to the Vatican.

Sr Enrica Rosanna, was made an undersecretary by the current Pope , he actually had spoken about appointing more women to Vatican positions..This also ruffled the feathers of the old guard


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Past resignations from the Washington Post. What a crew.

Pope Benedict IX, in 1045: At age 33 and about 10 years into his tumultuous term, the Rome-born pope resigned so that he could get married and to collect some cash from his godfather, also Roman, who paid Benedict IX to step down so that he might replace him, according to British historian Reginald L. Poole;s definitive and much-cited history of the 11th century.
Pope Gregory VI, in 1046: The same man who had bribed and replaced his godson ended up leaving the office himself only a year later, according to Poole's account. The trouble began when Benedict IX failed to secure the bride he'd resigned for, leading him to change his mind and return to the Vatican. Both popes remained in the city, both claiming to rule the Catholic church, for several months. That fall, the increasingly despondent clergy called on the German Emperor Henry III, of the Holy Roman Empire, to invade Rome and remove them both. When Henry III arrived, he treated Gregory VI as the rightful pope but urged him to stand before a council of fellow church leaders. The bishops urged Gregory VI to resign for bribing his way into office. Though the fresh new pope argued that he had done nothing wrong in buying the papacy, he stepped down anyway.
Pope Celestine V, in 1294: After only five months in office, the somber Sicilian pope formally decreed that popes now had the right to resign, which he immediately used. according to a report in the Guardian. He wrote, referring to himself in the third person, that he had resigned out of "the desire for humility, for a purer life, for a stainless conscience, the deficiencies of his own physical strength, his ignorance, the perverseness of the people, his longing for the tranquility of his former life." He became a hermit, but two years later was dragged out of solitude by his successor, who locked him up in an Italian castle. Celestine died 10 months later.
Pope Gregory XII, in 1415: The elderly Venetian had held the office for 10 years, but he was not the only pope. For decades, the Western Schism had left Europe with two popes, one in Rome and one in the French city of Avignon, according to Britannica. The schism's causes were political rather than theological: the pope had tremendous power over European politics, which had led its kings to become gradually more aggressive in manipulating the church's leaders. Gregory XII resigned so that a special council in Constance, which is today a German city, could excommunicate the Avignon-based pope and start fresh with a new, single leader of the Catholic church.

The Italian Press Photo of Lightning hitting St Peter'swill probably be used for ages by the religious yahoos in the country!


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Women can be Saints, but not Popes? I guess the message is that it is all right to be a woman in Heaven, so just be patient.

With the twin miracles of childbirth and clitoral orgasm - seldom experienced by Cardinals - they should be deified, not just kept to hand around the tea and sandwiches after the mumbo-jumbo.

Best wishes
Jon


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Going to live out his remaining days cloistered. This must break the hearts of Barbara Walters & Piers Morgan. No interviews.


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Well, of course health and age play a part in the pope's resignation... the guy is really old, and not in the best of health... but I think it goes deeper, and I'm sure it's a relief to get out before the church explodes publicly with the millions of victims and tons of incriminating documents and whatnot. What's come out publicly so far has to be difficult to deal with for the Vatican.


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  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Wed, Feb 13, 13 at 13:27

"but I think it goes deeper, and I'm sure it's a relief to get out before the church explodes publicly with the millions of victims and tons of incriminating documents and whatnot. What's come out publicly so far has to be difficult to deal with for the Vatican"

Here ya go Jodi, this is a lengthy read, but it "might" be the smoking gun. Joe/Labrea might have already posted on this little group, but I confess to not being able to keep up with all the threads these days.

Here is a link that might be useful: source of course


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Interesting, Ohiomom... plus, I hear through the grapevine that investigations are ongoing in other areas of the world, too, where victims are coming forward in droves and documents have been court ordered exposed... so, if i were the pope, I'd be getting out while the gettin's good!

As an aside, that link also contains a funny link in which Fox News talks about how solar power won't work here in the US because we don't get enough sun... LMAO!

Anyway... it's an interesting time to be catholic, to say the least!


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Not unlike the tobacco companies, the Catholics and Mormons are busy in developing countries.

I suspect Vatican 2 was the last breath of fresh air to be found in Rome for a VERY long time. They are still trying to put that genie back into the bottle. I know two lovely now-Senior couples whose intelligent minds were freed from yokes put on them as children and teenagers.

Why was the King of Siam so right, saying, "You have to be carefully taught?" What's wrong with adults thinking for themselves?


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"What's wrong with adults thinking for themselves?"

It causes them to be able to see the corruption and evil going on around them... something the scammers, the evil, and the greedy in this world do not want to happen. Exposure is bad for business.


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Panorama is reporting that Papa Ratzinger made his decision last December after receiving the second report on the Vatican investigation re Vatileaks. Supposedly the extensive report revealed the entrenched resistance within the Curia to the changes - calls for greater transparency - requested by the Pope.

Panorama is owned by Mondadori which in turn is controlled by Fininvest, a financial holding company run by the Berlusconi family. In other words, perhaps more politics - national elections in a few weeks - than journalism.


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In other words, perhaps more politics - national elections in a few weeks - than journalism.

Just a question - because I am completely in the dark about the ins and outs of Italian politics - but how would that affect the national elections... and which way would that kind of news swing it?


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I've posted about Maciel on here previously a few years ago in fact and was called a muckraker by someone who no longer posts. (you'd swear I was telling tales out of class)
I did'n't know anything about the Rhode Island suit. Sodano was Maciel's Protector. Maciel was incredibly well connected in Rome Mexico & in US conservative Catholic Circles though he himself led a life of open depravity.

. Jose Barba, a retired college professor and former Legion seminarian who filed a 1998 canon law request in Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith tribunal, seeking Maciel's excommunication.

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith which Ratzinger headed was formerly called the Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Roman and Universal Inquisition.. Yep that old Institution lived on.
Investigations into Maciel's behavior by the Vatican remain secret. He was never defrocked but retired to Florida!


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Good. I'd love to see the cover blown off all of it.

Depravity is good descriptive word, Joe.


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I've seen those stories but it' doesn't look like anyone else is going along with them. The Only way the Italian Government could do anything to the Pope would be if he stepped outside the Vatican. He's about to have himself walled in Cloistered.


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That's the problem with sovereign nations... and for all intents and purposes, the Vatican is just that... it's difficult, at best, to gain full access when it's not wanted. The pope is sitting in a country from which there's no extradition.


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An accommodation by Mussolini The Lateran Treaty created the Independent dot of land about 100 acres or a more. The whole hot bed of Eternal Intrigue is not even half the size of the Bronx Zoo.
The old Papal States were quiet extensive covered at least 20% of what is today Modern Italy including Rome but IIalians had no Problem going to war with the papacy & in effect ended the temporal rule over the lands that were then formally annexed. For about 50 years the Pope was called the Prisoner of Rome.

Most countries that had diplomatic relations with the former Papal Kingdom maintained them The new unified Nation of Italy did not. Garibaldi referred to the pestilential institution which is called the Papacy. He advocated for an abolition of all ecclesiastical property!


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