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So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Posted by elly_nj NJ z6 (My Page) on
Sun, Feb 3, 13 at 7:47

...and kills the most most decorated sniper from the SEALS.

On a shooting range. Where people (and supposedly he) had immediate access to guns.

I'm sorry, there is no punch line. Another life destroyed, more devastated families and friends left to lead their lives without their loved one.

I'm not providing a link. No one else does.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Just another "random" shooting, right?

Here is a link that might be useful: No doubt in my mind he was targeted


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Random or targeted, does it matter? People are over the top using guns to get revenge on others - whether it be random folks or specific folks.

Usage of guns for killing humans other than in self-defense is over the top.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Esh, then you should be happy this guy is gone! 150 confirmed kills, plus literally writing the book on being a sniper. This guy's got more medals for killing people than most generals have in total.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

using bill's logic, he deserved it.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Don't you think that if men on a shooting range can't defend themselves with guns, then maybe having guns for defending yourself doesn't always work as planned?


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

I would think he was targeted. That's scary.

Wasn't there another shooting like this in Alabama or Mississippi in the past 6 months or so? Is this a pattern?

A man walks into a shooting range........and kills himself


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

You have to spell it out for them, elly. Some people, when they see the word gun or shooting, go into NRA automatic mode--arguing against you without taking the time to understand what you were pointing out. Just watch now--they will lapse into a long argument about what is or is not the correct name of the firearm involved--without even noticing that irony: a bunch of people armed with all sorts of firearms (whatever their names might be) in a place that specializes in firearm business (whatever their names might be) could not "protect" the victim.

Really blows a big hole in the NRA argument that "good" guys armed are the universal solution to "bad" guys armed. Since the armed "good" guys did not prevail in this situation, I guess we have to assume that every armed person there must have been a "bad" guy!

Or maybe we might conclude that the claim that armed "good" guys will always prevail and win is third grade wishful thinking.

Kate


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

The fact of the matter is it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks about how others use guns or don't use guns.

The Second Amendment protects ownership of firearms.

It's going to be one heck of a fight in this country to try to change that.

The first step to doing it is to limit firearms in small increments.

People know and understand this.

I wish people would do the right thing, but I do not believe that limiting firearms will prevent tragedies of mass murder.

Even so, at what cost? Eventual lost of freedom and vulnerability of our citizens.

It's not going to happen.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

I guess I thought that being a sniper was his job (e.g., with the military).


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

I imagine, Elly--and of course no one knows--that he wasn't working in sniper mode at the moment, and comfortable in his surroundings.

Right now I'm not looking for a water moccasin to slither up from behind me and bite me on the ankle, but in a couple of months when I'm out by the water, I'll be on guard.

Facts will come out and we'll know more.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Facts will come out and we'll know more.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

It's a military tragedy, it appears he was shot, point blank, by another veteran, suffering from PTSD.

Will all the vets suffering from PTSD be entered into the "do not sell" database? How about the vets still waiting for that official diagnosis from the VA, months, and even years after their service. It can take that long to get a diagnosis, any diagnosis, from the VA, especially in Maryland. How about active duty military? How about anyone who served in a war zone? Twenty-two suicides a day.

The whole mental health/gun owner issue is such a distraction, and a joke. It won't work and it won't matter. But I'm sure the NRA will use it to divert attention from the real issues concerning gun control.

Here is a link that might be useful: Link


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Reading comments-following-the-article around the web, the tin foil brigade is out in full force - everything from Obama has to be behind it to Jessie Ventura behind it and so on.

They caught the guy who did it, along with the truck he stole, so we'll see. Looks to me like another crazy guy with a gun.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

I'd like to see some average guy (always a guy) try to kill a SEAL-SF-LURP with a knife or a truncheon.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

I glommed on to a blog piece written response to Josh Marshall's series of liberal criticism of the bifurcated world of gun lovers and their opposites. Calls for gun control is really cries out against unpredictable people having easy and immediate access to guns, especially the high capacity ones making the news.

=================================================
snip////

Oh, no, honey. Let me break it to you--I am not afraid of guns or of triggers. I'm also not afraid of mice or any other little story you guys tell yourselves about women, or people in cities, or liberals, or people who never owned a gun. I'm afraid of people--I'm afraid of people that I know exist in this world. People who are variously careful, careless, stupid, ill informed, angry, short tempered, lacking in foresight, paranoid, living in close proximity to relatives and friends who may be all of those things, raising children who may be all of those things--people who forget their keys and where they put their rifle, people who punch the walls when they get excited and may pull the trigger under the same impulse, people who leave their guns out where toddlers can grab them and kill themselves.

People are unreliable and people who own guns have something very serious and powerful with which to play out their personal dramas: job loss, old age, dementia, divorce, adolescent angst, quarrels with neighbors.

This is not really that hard to understand. There aren't two kinds of people in the world: people who have fond memories of dad and huntin' in the back forty and the rest of us "know nothings," gun owners and non gun owners. There are simply people who acknowledge that on balance people are not reliable 100 percent of the time--they are not in control of their own emotions, let alone of the circumstances in which they may find themselves. We have to legislate for the safety of the majority, not for the pleasure of the minority.

We routinely control, as a society, many things that give people pleasure--drugs, sex, property use--hell, you can't even burn leaves in my town--because in society one person's pleasure may lead to another person's harm. If you want to make a Second Amendment absolutist argument be my guest--but if you want to make in on the grounds that your hazy memories of feeling safe pulling the trigger with daddy gives your gun ownership primacy over my hazy memories of being able to drop my kindergartners off for school well, f... you, you don't get to make that argument without some pushback. We get it, we get it, but we don't respect it.

Here is a link that might be useful: by aimai


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

marshallz10, good perspective.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

demifloyd wrote,

The fact of the matter is it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks about how others use guns or don't use guns.
The Second Amendment protects ownership of firearms.

If you believe that Constitutional rights are unlimited and absolute, you are badly mistaken.

This post was edited by Factotem on Sun, Feb 3, 13 at 15:56


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Oh dear, like the mother in the Sandy Hook massacre, give someone with known mental health problems a gun, and they'll kill you.

Kyle and Littlefield had taken Routh to the range, said Travis Cox, the director of a nonprofit Kyle helped found. Littlefield was Kyle's neighbor and "workout buddy," Cox told The Associated Press on Sunday morning.

"What I know is Chris and a gentleman - great guy, I knew him well, Chad Littlefield - took a veteran out shooting who was struggling with PTSD to try to assist him, try to help him, try to, you know, give him a helping hand and he turned the gun on both of them, killing them," Cox said.

They thought giving him a loaded weapon was a good idea?

What a tragedy, especially for the children left without a father.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

A well respected lawyer was shot and killed at a local gun range around here last year. The killer wasn't insane...he was a right wing survivalist whacko who had a stockpile of weapons and coveted this guy's special gun He was a prison guard. A gun range? Where were all the other shooters to go into action?


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

took a veteran out shooting who was struggling with PTSD to try to assist him,

The last place I would take a man diagnosed with PTSD is a shooting range, and arm him of all things.

Seems very dangerous and careless to me.

Why not fishing?

Now, what do some of you think of Mr. Kyle's for profit business as it's explained below?

Craft International, Kyle's security training company, had scheduled a $2,950-per-person civilian training event at Rough Creek Lodge called the "Rough Creek Shoot Out!" for March 1-3. The price included lodging, meals and shooting instruction. Kyle was scheduled to teach the first class, called "precision rifle."

Does that make him a bad man? How many anti-gun folks disapprove of Mr. Kyle's for profit gun training business?
Be honest here.

Momj47. I didn't see your post. I'm sure others have the same question. Why take a man with PTSD to a gun firing range? Therapy? Are you kidding me?

Elly, it's always good to wait for more info. The guy didn't walk on to the range, he was taken there by Mr. Kyle.

This post was edited by brushworks on Sun, Feb 3, 13 at 13:54


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

What do we know?

Mr. Kyle wasn't targeted.

The man didn't walk on to the range. He was escorted to the range by Mr. Kyle.

The murderer suffered from PTSD, and was taken to a shooting range for therapy.

Mr. Kyle owned a lucrative gun training business for professionals AND civilians. His entire military life and civilian career revolved around guns.

Question for the anti gun crowd here at HT.

Is a man like Mr. Kyle part of the gun culture problem in our country?


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

No. He is dead. Allegedly by gunshot.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Someone wasn't 'well regulated' enough.

You play with matches you get burned.

The nuts cling to the Nino-dominated decision of 2008 and forget about the prior decades of Supreme Court decisions concerning the 2nd Amendment.

-Ron-


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Mr. Kyle wasn't targeted.

This is amazing that you know this so early on. Remarkable.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Is a man like Mr. Kyle part of the gun culture problem in our country?

I don't know enough about this man to make such a comment but I do think the NRA is head-and-shoulders at the forefront of the gun culture problem in this country.

-Ron-


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Wow. Apparently the other people with guns at this shooting range STILL weren't well-enough armed to defend this man from the bad guy.

So according to the logic touted on this forum, I will have to get more guns in my house than were there on the shooting range, in order to be safe, right? Does anyone know how many guns were present and in the possession of trained gun users at the moment of the shooting?


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

seems to me a dying society is to blame.NRA has nothing to do with that.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Mr. Kyle's last interview.

Here is a link that might be useful: Q&A with Mr. Kyle


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Mr Kyle was amazingly ignorant of Obama's Exec Orders, what the Constitution gave him vis a vis rights, Switzerland and crime rates...definitely a part of the gun culture.

At least he agrees with the entire planet that Alex Jones looks like an idiot!


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Posted by WxDano none (My Page) on
Sun, Feb 3, 13 at 15:04

Mr. Kyle wasn't targeted.

This is amazing that you know this so early on. Remarkable.


The shooter was his guest that he escorted to the gun range. It wasn't a targeted killing, unless you mean he was a target.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Bingo, brush belts booomers


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Thanks, NRA, for spreading this gun culture. Special thanks for pretending you are Patriots, not just gun profiteers.

Thanks, Cheney, Bush(es) & Co., for recruiting unemployed American boys to be trained to kill 'the other' in a mercenary army in undeclared wars in the Middle East.

Thanks, Congress, for not funding mental health services for the damaged vets unable to fit back into 'civilization'.

Thanks, Congress, for not supporting Obama's attempts to refurbish our infrastructure, providing non-military employment for blue collar Americans IN America.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

  • Posted by RpR_ 3-4 (My Page) on
    Sun, Feb 3, 13 at 17:33

US News
Iraq vet charged in fatal shooting of ex-SEAL
By JAMIE STENGLE and CHRISTOPHER SHERMAN Associated Press The Associated Press
Sunday, February 3, 2013 5:02 PM EST

A 25-year-old Iraq war veteran charged with murdering former Navy SEAL and "American Sniper" author Chris Kyle and his friend turned a gun onto the pair while they were at a Texas shooting range, authorities said Sunday.

Eddie Ray Routh of Lancaster was arraigned early Sunday in the deaths of Kyle, 38, and Chad Littlefield, 35, at a shooting range at Rough Creek Lodge, about 50 miles southwest of Fort Worth. He was being held on one charge of capital murder and two charges of murder....After the shootings, Routh left the shooting range in Kyle's black pickup truck, Bryant said, first going to his sister's home in Midlothian, where he told her and her husband what he had done. Routh left, Bryant said, and the couple called local police....

...Routh arrived at his home in Lancaster, about 17 miles southeast of Dallas, at about 8 p.m. Police arrested him after a brief pursuit.

Travis Cox, the director of a nonprofit Kyle helped found, told the Associated Press on Sunday that Kyle and Littlefield had taken Routh to the range. Littlefield was Kyle's neighbor and "workout buddy," Cox said

"What I know is Chris and a gentleman great guy, I knew him well, Chad Littlefield took a veteran out shooting who was struggling with PTSD to try to assist him, try to help him, try to, you know, give him a helping hand and he turned the gun on both of them, killing them," Cox said.

A knock on the door at Routh's last known address went unanswered Sunday. A for-sale sign was in front of the small, wood-framed home.

Kyle's nonprofit, FITCO Cares, provides at-home fitness equipment for emotionally and physically wounded veterans....


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Who in their right mind would take a person with mental issues to a firing range with a loaded gun? I guess if you live by the gun , you die by the gun.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Marshall, excellent 11:40 response to this thread.

Im not for banning all firearms in this country. Im all for a reworking on who gets them why some wont be able to have them in the home, what kind, ammo, clips and how they must always handle and store what they have.

We are a nation stuffed with angry people who have impulse control problems. That has to be the guideline when discussing gun purchase and ownership/storage reform to provide safety to the general public.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Your last sentence says a lot.
More people should be taking the NRA sponsored gun safety courses, The Eddie Eagle gun safety course for children should be in all schools.( gun haters hate the safety courses, ???) Its required that anybody buying a hunting license in Pa must attend a hunter education/safet course. That might be a good idea for any gun purchaser. There are continuing courses in this region costing from 10 bucks on up. Its a one time thing.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

And the NRA / gun rights proponents passed a law in AZ where you don't need a license, any training at all for concealed carry.

IOW, the gun rights people are seriously pushing the envelope in the other direction. Something that we don't mention so much in the fear that Obama will steal all the guns.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

gun haters hate the safety courses

Where did you get that?

As a gun hater myself, I sure hope everyone that has a gun takes a gun safety course. It should be required before you can buy a gun. Heck, maybe even required every year? Or some interval?

Its required that anybody buying a hunting license in Pa must attend a hunter education/safet course.

That's good to hear.

That might be a good idea for any gun purchaser.

Excellent idea. Why don't you give Wayne a call.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

FF....what you say makes sense so why does the NRA not support mandatory training? I'd go so far as to say a test should follow. Why on earth is it more difficult to get a drivers license then a gun? Both are deadly weapons when not used properly.

Here in Ontario one must take a two day course and then take a test for a simple long gun......three days for a hand gun. After that there is back ground checks and then a waiting period.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

FF....what you say makes sense so why does the NRA not support mandatory training? I'd go so far as to say a test should follow. Why on earth is it more difficult to get a drivers license then a gun? Both are deadly weapons when not used properly.

Here in Ontario one must take a two day course and then take a test for a simple long gun......three days for a hand gun. After that there is back ground checks and then a waiting period.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

FF: "Its required that anybody buying a hunting license in Pa must attend a hunter education/safet course. That might be a good idea for any gun purchaser."

Same here in WI. Also, when you win a gun, say at a DU or Ruffed Grouse banquet, it it registered to you as you pick it up.

There's so much talk about background checks. I thought everyone got a background check when purchasing a gun. If they don't, they should.

I don't know how much good it does, as the gangbangers are lawless, and I'm thinking most the gun injuries/deaths are caused by that type of group.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

I loved the way conservative Fox guy Chris Wallace made mincemeat of the insane LaPierre yesterday. He looks and sounds like a looney tune.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

I didnt see it that way lily, tho He could have done a bit better??

The NRA offers all kinds of gun traing, many times per year, all over.

Back during the clintoon regome several sachools denied the Eddie Eagle gun safety program, pushed by, you guessed it, the anti gun crowd. Go figure??

there are many gun raffles here giving away hundreds of guns every year' thay all have to be picked up at dealers and undergo insta check. xcept black powder types of course.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

I suspect it's not the hunters, who attend safety courses, who are the problem. They are respectful of their guns. It's the "others", like the guy who says "I felt grown up. It was like a coming-of-age thing. I felt like an adult.", who make me uneasy.

Young men with guns. Gun safety isn't required when they legally buy a gun at a gun show, or from the local gun shop that sells, and "loses" many, many guns every year. Young men who swagger around, puffed out with the macho feeling they get from carrying a gun. They go out with friends, shooting cans and small animals, the gun is just a toy to them. They make me very uneasy.

Here is a link that might be useful: Link


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Mom: "They make me very uneasy."

Re the young men you described: "Young men who swagger around, puffed out with the macho feeling they get from carrying a gun", that sort makes me uneasy too. And rightly so, IMO.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

  • Posted by RpR_ 3-4 (My Page) on
    Mon, Feb 4, 13 at 22:24

Posted by momj

I suspect it's not the hunters, who attend safety courses, who are the problem. They are respectful of their guns. It's the "others", like the guy who says "I felt grown up. It was like a coming-of-age thing. I felt like an adult.", who make me uneasy.

Young men with guns. Gun safety isn't required when they legally buy a gun at a gun show, or from the local gun shop that sells, and "loses" many, many guns every year. Young men who swagger around, puffed out with the macho feeling they get from carrying a gun. They go out with friends, shooting cans and small animals, the gun is just a toy to them. They make me very uneasy. -------------------The quote below is from the article on a person who apparnetly makes you feel uneasy.
As the song says: "Paranoia strikes deep, into your life it will creep...."

------------------------------------------------------

His parents were major art benefactors, and his mother donated a huge collection of works to a fine arts museum in Boston. She's a liberal who doesn't like his new interest in guns and won't let him discuss the subject at family gatherings. He says his father, who died three years ago, cherished his Second Amendment rights, but now Rob is the only gun person in his family.

Farago (fa-RAH-go) has been through many transitions. Years ago he worked for CNN as a cameraman and producer. He lived for a while in England, freelancing articles. He's twice divorced, with two grown kids from the first marriage and a 9-year-old daughter, who lives with him, from the second. He speaks often of his desire to be a protective father, to keep the child safe in a dangerous world.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

the gun is just a toy to them. They make me very uneasy

Me too.

I loved the way conservative Fox guy Chris Wallace made mincemeat of the insane LaPierre yesterday. He looks and sounds like a looney tune.

Trust me-- LaPierre doesn't need Wallace to look loony tunes. He's the reason I dropped my membership in the 80's.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

RpR. so what. It's not his parents that matter. I read the whole article. It's his comments that are disturbing. He now owns many guns. Does he feel even more like an adult?

Most people don't need guns to feel grown up.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

well, I think LaPierre is right on target. and I am far from radical. But thats just the difference in perception aint it? I may prefer James Jay Baker or Cox and it could be time for Wayne to take a higher position A lot of people make me uneasy, not just those with guns. Ive been around guns since I can remember, its just the way it is.
Where do these puffed out guys with guns come from anyhow, never seen em. Not around here, they just grow up with em here., no need to puff.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Your guys have moobs?

They are certainly in the city and inner suburbs where I work. And they shoot each other and a lot of innocent people, too.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Lawrdy, whats a moob??? I don think I ever wants ta see one!! But I CAN imagine things.


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Moobs

Sorry to ruin your breakfast


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Excuse me if I am wrong but I don't remember reading any compassionate comments on this post for Chris, his friend Chad , their families or even the shooter Eddie Routh. Chris was a SEAL/sniper and fought for his country in a war that many are against, even had a bounty placed on his head.....but he did his job and a good job. So, since Chris was a "gun person" does that make his death any less important? Instead of taking his death back to "gun control" why not make it a rallying point in bringing our troops home and getting better treatment for the PSTD from which so many of our troops suffer.

(a repeat of my post) This is so sad and what a waste of three lives. Two exceptional men dead and another life ruined; of course it sounds as though his life was devastated even before this shooting. My heart goes out to the families of all three men and to Eddie Routh himself who seems to be another innocent victim of PTSD.

Chris was a great man with a big heart; always ready to lend a helping hand, especially to fellow service men/women. Ironic that he should serve four tours in a war zone and be at risk so many times only to be shot at home by one of our own. Chris will be missed by many.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Well, you didn't read the posts very carefully, then.

His family must be suffering terribly - his two children are without a father. I can't imagine anything more tragic, no matter what kind of person he was.

But he made a TERRIBLE MISTAKE taking this man to a shooting range, and he paid for this mistake with his life, as well as the life of his friend.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

It's a sad story especially how guns kill so many and leave so many families ruined for life like ALL the families of precious little kids at Newtown. . However, who takes a mentally disturbed person to a shooting range with guns, for God's sake?..Guns are their god.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

No. His life isn't any less important, but it's not any more important than those who have been murdered before him.

One's vocation doesn't place them above others. For example, those who have died in combat roles, school children, moms, dads, and the lovely woman photographer who was murdered in Turkey.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

mom"""""Well, you didn't read the posts very carefully, then."
Went back and reread the thread and still don't see any compassion..........just another "I HATE GUNS" thread.

brush""""One's vocation doesn't place them above others"

Never said that brush and I agree with your statement wholeheartedly. His life is no more or less important then any other service man/woman killed or wounded when the entire picture is unfolded , buuuuuuuuutttttttttt, Chris was just killed and it's in the news so mind telling me why there shouldn't be compassion expressed. Chris gave a lot for him country and was still involved in helping his brothers/sisters in arms yet all I got out of this thread was that "if you live by the sword you die by the sword", how stupid he was for taking a man with PSTD to a gun range (when he had been working with these type people and had procedures and treatment plans to follow), "Guns were his Gods", etc.

lily"""""""However, who takes a mentally disturbed person to a shooting range with guns, for God's sake?. Guns are their god."

Oh get a grip lily. Guns were not Chris's God. Chris worked with people with PSTD ..........I don't know, nor do I pretend to know, all the procedures used to help these people but at some point in time, from my understanding, many of them were taken to the gun range. I do know that whatever the procedures were, I'm sure Chris knew more about it than you or I. In this case, unfortunately it seems Mr. Routh wasn't ready and Chris and his friend Chad died from their mistake. It seems the only light you are able to see Chris in is as a "gun fanatic". You know nothing about the man other than what you've read. But then again, your comments are typical lily so once again I'll just consider the source.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Consider the source that this guy was the best sniper this country ever had and claimed to have killed 255 people. He started shooting at eight years old. You don't think he loved guns? Are you weeping for all the 1000's who have been killed since Sandy Hook? One life is not more precious than another.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

lily"""""""""Are you weeping for all the 1000's who have been killed since Sandy Hook? One life is not more precious than another."

If you would read what I wrote lily, you would see that I said in a previous post that his life is no more nor no less important than others............. with the exception of those who know and love him. And no, I'm not weeping for all the 1000's who have been killed since Sandy Hook............don't know them nor ever heard of the majority of them. Those that I hear about my heart goes out to their families...........those that I don't hear about I know nothing about. At least I don't try to make a political thread out of such a heartbreaking event of someone being killed...............especially in a situation such as this one. And lily, Chris probably did love guns............so what............that doesn't make "Guns his God" and there is nothing wrong with it. As it turned out his "love of guns" enabled him to perform a huge service for our country.............Oh I forgot, I'm speaking of the country that you have mentioned leaving numerous times so I'm sure that has no bearing on your opinion. Just take the freedom that our service men and women protect and keep on trucking.

edited to correct spelling

This post was edited by Lady_Brat on Tue, Feb 5, 13 at 17:22


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Lady Brat,

Stopped reading your threads after the first sentence.

If Chris Kyle can't defend himself, who can? On a shooting range? What's the point of having a gun if you can't defend yourself?


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

"If Chris Kyle can't defend himself, who can? On a shooting range? What's the point of having a gun if you can't defend yourself?"

Um, you're not supposed to shoot people at the shooting range, Elly. The fact that the double homicide occurred at a shooting range is ironic but probably was the victims' undoing. In fact had the incident occurred elsewhere they might have been alerted to the danger. As it was, the appearance of the weapon ultimately used to kill would have appeared natural owing to the location, i.e., the shooting range.

As Jodi would say, you're not being logical. Hope you don't mind, Jodi. My apologies if you do.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Those who've never been to a formal shooting range have no idea of how they operate. JUust watch a 3 gun speed event and the safety checks are amazing. Some one intent on murder will take their opportunities.Whats the sense in going on about it.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Well, I guess those who didn't know and love Kyle see his death as just one more tragic death among the thousands of needless tragic deaths every year. I feel bad for his family, his children should not have to endure this.

FYI - our servicemen and women haven't been protecting our freedoms, the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have nothing to do with our freedom. Those are the George W. Bush sham wars, that, sadly, took real American lives, over 6400 of them so far. Those are the men and women we should be weeping for.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

elly""""""""Lady Brat, Stopped reading your threads after the first sentence. If Chris Kyle can't defend himself, who can? On a shooting range? What's the point of having a gun if you can't defend yourself?"

But you still had to take time to post that you "Stopped reading your threads after the first sentence" LMAO. I usually make a point of reading your threads all the way through elly just to see what ridiculous bits of info you have to impart that day (second sentence in this post says it all).

Thank you Rpr, FF and Elvis for your "explanation" of procedures on a shooting range.........not that she listened, but thanks for trying.

mom"""""""""FYI - our servicemen and women haven't been protecting our freedoms, the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have nothing to do with our freedom."

I could have used the expression "served our country" but I'm sure you would find fault with that too. That's OK though mom, you have the right to state your opinion thanks to our service men and women "protecting" that right through the years. As far as I am concerned they have been protecting my freedoms in this war. Regardless to who or why the war was started as long as our troops are fighting al-Qaeda and the Taliban I feel they are fighting for my freedom. And for your information every life lost in this war tears at my heart. I have two nephews who served two tours of duty and I can't even begin to imagine the pain and suffering families who have lost loved ones go through. In my opinion, with the circumstances of his death, Chris is just as much a victim of this war as if he had been killed while still on tour.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Lady_Brat wrote,

As far as I am concerned they have been protecting my freedoms in this war. Regardless to who or why the war was started as long as our troops are fighting al-Qaeda and the Taliban I feel they are fighting for my freedom.

In Iraq?


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

momj47,

Afghanistan is a war that Washington tells us is a war of necessity. I believe Obama was sold on the war in Afghanistan, and promised to escalate it, which he has done. Obama approves the war in Afghanistan. (just a reminder)

"But we must never forget. This is not a war of choice," he told the VFW crowd. "This is a war of necessity. Those who attacked America on 9/11 are plotting to do so again." Barack Obama

IMO, being in the ME is NOT defending our freedom and democracy. That is why I consider it abusive to send and keep our troops in that forsaken place.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Lady Brat, you completely miss the sins of Bushjr, crazyCheney.
This is how permission is granted to allow it to happen yet again.

And how more Americans will die for no reason having to do with freedom, not of yours or mine. Please rethink this before you find yourself kneejerking an approval from another president you blindly support and before you start re-sending those hundreds of meaningless "I support the troops!"round robin emails.

Support the troops by making darn sure they really ARE in a war to actually protect you rather than by serving a political means. That is what "supporting the troops" really means. Then you will save American troops instead of supporting them actually to death.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

And I still can't figure out what "conditions" at a firing range have to do with the irony of this unfortunate soul, a gun expert of some kind, being unable to defend himself--and none of the armed customers being able to protect him.

It is the pro-gun NRA that has been arguing that more guns would mean that everyone is safer. One example they love to give is someone trying to rob a store which contains a number of secretly carrying guys who will whip out their guns and stop the robber on the spot.

Well, I don't see how you could be more surrounded by a number of armed guys than at a gun-firing range--but the more-guns=more protection theory didn't work at all in this case--and tragically two innocent gun-owners could not protect themselves, nor could a firing range with armed customers protect them either.

But more guns in a school (all the teachers armed, for instance) would mean the kids are more protected? Not based on this example, by a long shot!

Kate


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

My SIL served his country with the US Army, including a year in Iraq, in the Medical Corp - he saw them die, he was with them when they died, so don't give me any cr*p about service. And he said it was painfully obvious that he wasn't "protecting our freedom" while he was in Iraq.

I see you bought the al-Qaeda myth.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Exactly Mom, Have the Righties explained what freedoms they were protecting us from in a war we had no business fighting. They were protecting us from NO ONE. There was a despotic dictator who the first Bush could have killed but then Bush the twerp went avenging his father. NO Rightie ever condemns this but if it been Obama, the story would have never ended, since they spent days on the picture whether Obama was really shooting skeet.

And re: the gun range. These gun nuts want to arm all our teachers, and YET when you are at a place where everyone IS armed, a guy kills two people and gets away without one of these big bad gun nuts taking a shot?


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

And then there are those who believe that since soldiers volunteer, they get what they asked for.

SMH


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

And why are you shaking your head?

Yes, he did volunteer, though "get what they asked for" makes no sense.

The truly heartbreaking tragedy for many of those in Iraq, and Afghanistan, is the deaths of the children. They were brought to his hospital in Baghdad because it was the best. They were seriously burned, or otherwise grievously wounded from all sorts of weapons, and many died. Did they die defending our freedom?

They saved many of them, but once they left the hospital they left 21st Century medicine, there wasn't much hope for their future.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

How many others were at the range at the time Kate? It appears just 3.
After a round of shooting, guns are cleared.That means a visual check and the action left open with muzzle pointing in a safe direction down range.. It appears the 2 murdered moved down range, maybe to reset targets?? , the killer reloaded and shot them, probably in the back? while their cleared weapons rested on the bench. They must have trusted the killer was not a danger to them. Its really hard to say exactly what happened, not being there and all.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

I understand that, ff, but it still disproves the NRAs point that more guns means more protection. Even in a school, the roomful of kindergartners is massacred in a couple minutes--unexpected--no one is prepared--their backs were turned and so they didn't see it coming, etc--it's the same at a school as at a gun-firing range.

And proof that the whole situation is more complex than more guns=more protection. The NRA is offering false solutions by peddling their over-simplistic formula for protecting America from bad guys. As the gun range example shows--where there were "several" guns available, it still is no protection under those circumstances--and probably under many other circumstances either (such as schools).

Kate


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Exactly , Kate but why don't we just give it up. You will never get thru to gun nuts and their so called logic. These guys's backs were turned? What if the armed teacher's back is turned?


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

So even an armed marksman can't prevail over someone who is determined to kill.

Don't trust anyone.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

And then there are those who believe that since soldiers volunteer, they get what they asked for.

And then there is the other 99.99% of society. So what.

That is: about the same number as those who believe this one is a future computer genius:


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

  • Posted by RpR_ 3-4 (My Page) on
    Wed, Feb 6, 13 at 16:12

Back when gun-shops being robbed in the Twin Cities seveal decades back, most gun-shops employees were armed.

In one where the clerk was killed the, robber, murder walked straight in, up to the clerk and shot him dead.
The police said this was a preplanned robbery from how quick it was done and in the manner the clerk was murdered.

My point.

No one fighting for the 2nd Amendment has EVER said it is a fool-proof solution, but it can give one a fighting chance.

Anyone who uses examples of people being murdered, despite being armed, as excuses to disarm the populace, is using a straw-man, make-believe Neverland perfect world, scenario as an excuse to attack fire-arms, probably out of paranoid fear which the liberal gun haters, in Washington, love to exploit.
Of course to them it is also a good tool to use gun ignorance and fear to get re-elected.

While at the same time, even Peter Pan was armed.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

No one is suggesting that the populace be disarmed, but, once you drink the NRA Kool-Aid, you'll apparently never believe anything else. LOL

Registration of gun purchases and gun owners, registration of guns, liability insurance, background checks on any gun purchase or transfer of ownership. And none of these mean that the men in the black helicopters will come and get your guns one night.

No one has come for your fishing equipment, but you have to have a license to use it, in the water, where the fish are.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

well mom 47, hvent you heard feinstein, and othr when they have flat out stated that if they had the votes, mom and pop America would have to give up ALL their weapons?

And ya have to have a license o hunt, in

the fields and forests, where the game is.

Which other rights require regisraton?


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Voting comes to mind.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

ff, you only hear half of what people say--so no wonder you misunderstand them.

So Senator Feinstein would get rid of all guns if they had the votes. So what? They don't have the votes. And what's more they know they don't have the votes. They accept that reality and thus have proposed only restrictions that America in general supports. They are NOT pushing for all guns to be banned--and even if they did, it wouldn't matter--because America in general is not behind that option. And Feinstin knows and accepts that.

So what are you getting yourself all tied up in knots for? Nobody is pushing to abolish all your guns--not even Feinstein. You are protecting yourself from the bogyman (or woman, in this case).

Kate


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

  • Posted by RpR_ 3-4 (My Page) on
    Wed, Feb 6, 13 at 17:32

Posted by duluthinbloom

"Voting comes to mind."----That was to over come the favorite Democrat saying, "Vote early, vote often."


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

The question was posed, " Which other rights require regisraton [sic]?"

One does register for the right (and the privilege) to vote. No need to go back to a phrase made popular by organized crime folks in the early 1900's. A little bit of ballot stuffing, however, would be far less egregious and widespread than the voter suppression business the Republicans seem so fond of these days.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

That was to over come the favorite Democrat saying, "Vote early, vote often."

Favorite Democrat(ic) saying?

The National Voter Registration Act of 1993, also known as the Motor Voter Act:

Was signed into effect by United States President Bill Clinton on May 20, 1993. However, compliance did not become mandatory until 1995. The legislation required state governments to allow for registration when a qualifying voter applied for or renewed their driver's license or applied for social services.

Provisions of the act:
The legislation was initially designed to reduce costs of voting registration by accumulating individual data when applying for a drivers license and or receiving social assistance. The "motor voter" nickname came from the idea that most of the NVRA data was accumulated from applicants renewing or obtaining driver's licenses. Individuals who applied for "agency based" needs such as food stamps, disability services and other social services were to be offered voter registration, as well. The intention of the legislation was to encourage greater access to voter registration for the citizens who needed further assistance registering to vote. Also, NVRA allowed for more accessible voter registration through mail-in and individual voter registration drives.

In the United States, Republicans accused their opponents of inviting such corruption with their support of the National Voter Registration Act of 1993, the "Motor Voter Law". So they revived the old political saying from the early 1900's, "Voter early and vote often."

-Ron-


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

I don't believe that Feinstein said to ban all weapons. In 1995, she said she was always armed. Said if someone tried to take her out, they were going with her.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

"That was to over come the favorite Democrat saying, "Vote early, vote often."

A favorite tongue in cheek motto in Chicago where & when I was growing up, popularly attributed to the first Mayor Daley, who was a piece of work.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

you can watch and hear her say exactly that, google it. They may not have the votes right now, better to trust a rattle snake.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

I suspect very few gun owners actually hunt. And if you don't have a license to fish, you probably don't carry your fishing equipment around - openly or concealed.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

ff, if the majority of Americans decide to ban all guns, that will not be because of Senator Feinstein. She doesn't have that much influence. You are beating up on her needlessly. She doesn't have the power you attribute to her--so why keep banging your head against that wall?

You're not making sense on this matter, ff. And reacting irrationally like that doesn't help your cause--since it makes a lot of people wonder about irrational people being permitted to carry guns.

mrsk, I really don't know Senator Feinstein's position on banning guns--other than knowing that that is NOT even touched upon in the legislation she is pushing right now. But thanks for speaking up for the good senator.

Kate


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

You're welcome Kate.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

The question was posed, " Which other rights require regisraton [sic]?"

Does one register to drive a car? You have to have a valid license.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

And insurance for that car.

Many professions require that you be registered / licensed- nursing, hair dressers, manicurists, doctors, lawyers, fortune tellers, massage therapists, shampoo assistants, librarians, beekeepers, electrologists and movie projector operators, teachers, acupuncturists, architects, armored car guards, court reporters, farriers....and on.....and on.....and on......

Believe me, they already have lists, so being on a list of gun owners will probably be the least of your problems.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

her legislation would ban over 150 guns, read it.

About 6% of the population over age 16 buy hunting licenses each year. That doesnt include those under that age. Hunting participation has grown annualy for the last 5 years, after several years of decline. The fastest growing segment of new hunters are women. They spend approx. 34 Billion per year on the sport.

I think its irrational to try and ban my guns which I use lawfully. Put the same efforts towards actually doing something sane about crime and criminals.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

her legislation would ban over 150 guns, read it.

Should ANY of those 150 types of guns be banned? Or are they all perfectly good for everyone?


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Posted by esh_ga

"her legislation would ban over 150 guns, read it.

Should ANY of those 150 types of guns be banned? ?"-----------------------No.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

in any shooting or fight it is easy to shoot or sucker punch the first person.

Unless you are cop at crime scene or active robbery you do not expect someone to pull out gun start shooting.

Someone intent on killing will not be stopped by laws.
gun,sword or knife sandy hooke would still have been deadly.
with or sword more could have been killed. Guns have one flaw in most cases. they make a lot of noise.
Once past the security door or in though window Sandy Hooke
had no active security.
Virginia tech no real barriers to prevent the shooter.
Aurora a security door nothing else.
why terror experts worry about so called soft targets.
A nut willing to kill can easily find people to kill.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

You are undermining the NRA position again. The NRA keeps insisting we need to arm more people so more people will be safe--but even surrounded by guns, people can be taken by surprise. Since it only takes a few seconds or a couple minutes to kill people, by the time anyone reacts, the murders are already done--so no one is being "saved" by the armed ones.

Besides (not brought up here), the t-party/survivalist types clearly state that they are protecting themselves and their loved loves not from the kindergartner killer types but from the tyranny of the U.S. government who, sooner or later, will send out the military to wipe out the t-party/survivialist type--just because that is what tyrannical government always do. I heard one of these types interviewed the other day--he out and out said the 2nd amendment has nothing to do with hunting or self-protection against robbers and such things. It is only about "the people" having the ability to shoot the government forces--a threat needed to make democracy work.

I wish you people would agree on what you are talking about.

Kate


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

I wish you people would agree on what you are talking about.

*

Why?

Why should people have to agree?


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

mom""""""And he said it was painfully obvious that he wasn't "protecting our freedom" while he was in Iraq."


And thanks to all our service men/women through the years your SIL has the freedom to speak his "OPINION", but what he says is only that, "his opinion". I've heard some service men/women say basically the same thing and others who disagree totally. We all have our own "OPINION" and the fact that the above "OPINION" is your SIL's doesn't make it fact. I want our troops home and this war ended and if the idiots are dumb enough to attack us again I hope whoever is in charge won't be stupid enough to send us into another Viet Nam like they have this time. I hate war but if it must be, send in the troops, let them kick butt and get it over with not drag it out for years while politicians pockets are lined.


Per obama, ""But we must never forget. This is not a war of choice," he told the VFW crowd. "This is a war of necessity. Those who attacked America on 9/11 are plotting to do so again." Now, as many of you think obama is the most brillant president of all time, and he states that these people are plotting to attack us again, our troops must be "protecting our freedom"............if they'r not "protecting our freedom" then obama must be lying, Right?


The fact that Chris saved God knows how many troops with his sniping skills, which could have easily included any one of our loved ones who have served in this war, served four tours and was awarded 2 silver stars and 5 bronze stars has been pushed to the side with such comments as "Support the troops by making darn sure they really ARE in a war to actually protect you rather than by serving a political means." or " FYI - our servicemen and women haven't been protecting our freedoms, the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have nothing to do with our freedom." . It's really disgusting to see compassion over a death pushed to the side only to have the incident used to promote one's political agenda regarding the war and gun ownership. If Chris had been a left wing librul, supporting the opinions of those using his death in such a manner, I'm sure that compassion would have not only emerged but oozed.............and that's all I have to on this thread.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

I agree, if someone can kill two people at a shooting range full of armed, very likely good shooters with guns at the ready and walk away unharmed.....then why would I believe someone with a concealed weapon in a movie theatre , school or mall is going to take out the bad guy before they accomplish what they set out to do?


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Lady_Brat wrote,

mom""""""And he said it was painfully obvious that he wasn't "protecting our freedom" while he was in Iraq."

And thanks to all our service men/women through the years your SIL has the freedom to speak his "OPINION", but what he says is only that, "his opinion". I've heard some service men/women say basically the same thing and others who disagree totally.

What is your opinion -- was the Iraq war waged to protect our freedoms?

Per obama, ""But we must never forget. This is not a war of choice," he told the VFW crowd. "This is a war of necessity. Those who attacked America on 9/11 are plotting to do so again." Now, as many of you think obama is the most brillant president of all time, and he states that these people are plotting to attack us again, our troops must be "protecting our freedom"............if they'r not "protecting our freedom" then obama must be lying, Right?

Wrong, on several counts. Ohiomom was referring to the Iraq war, but the Obama quote you supply in response refers to the Afghanistan war. Right?

You also employ the fallacy that if someone says something that is incorrect, it is therefore a lie. I trust I don't need to explain why that reasoning is fallacious.

You also deploy a transparent straw man (mixed metaphor alert!) when you write, "many of you think obama is the most brillant president of all time." I challenge you to produce a statement to that effect from anyone on this forum, ever. If you are unable to, your straw man will be exposed for what it is -- a false claim. Deployment of bald-faced fallacies of this sort do nothing for your credibility.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

her legislation would ban over 150 guns, read it.

Leaving only 2000+ legal styles of guns.

Not that her proposed ban is going anywhere, but just to put this in perspective.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Why don't you just give up, Chase? You can't reason with these people . They result to name calling and cite stupid irrelevant propaganda fashioned by the looney tune, Wayne LaPierre. Then these threads would end, because you'd just have four people babbling to each other how much fun guns are.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

David, the banned gun list is a joke, made up by totally ignorant people. It bans guns by name, banning one of a certain caliber under one name and the same gun in another caliber under another name is unmentioned. Does this tell you anything. They just look at pictures and decide what THEY think looks bad to them, that day.

Hi lily, see you still visit these threads regularly.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Fancifowl - do you think that ANY gun should be banned from being purchased by the average American? Regardless of the list, is there anything that should be banned?


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Love an open minded discussion......on my way to look for one.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

RpR wrote,

Posted by chase

'I don't appreciate my thoughts on the matter being called silly any more than you might appreciate yours being called narrow minded.'-------Then do not make an analogy that is either based on ignorance or a narrow minded bias.

Do you change your mind when you discover that you were wrong about a fact?


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

"Posted by chase
"I agree, if someone can kill two people at a shooting range full of armed, very likely good shooters with guns at the ready and walk away unharmed.....then why would I believe someone with a concealed weapon in a movie theatre , school or mall is going to take out the bad guy before they accomplish what they set out to do?"-----------Your analogy is silly on its best day and foolish on the rest."
----------------

Posted by Factotem none (My Page) on Thu, Feb 7, 13 at 17:28

RpR wrote,
Posted by chase

'I don't appreciate my thoughts on the matter being called silly any more than you might appreciate yours being called narrow minded.'-------Then do not make an analogy that is either based on ignorance or a narrow minded bias.
FTM: "Do you change your mind when you discover that you were wrong about a fact?"

Let's assume that FTM is asking the question based on
the quotes he posted just above the question. Chase has posted her thoughts and FF has responded with an opinion. There are no facts in dispute, so I conclude that FTM is again interrogating posters for no valid purpose. How tiresome.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

FancyFowl, I've said many times that I think banning "assault weapons" is silly.

I do think that in the interest of safety we could ban *some* weapons, I don't think those shotguns with the 20 round drum magazines are worth the risk to the public. Think of the carnage someone could do with that in a theatre. And I'm not so sure that our society benefits much from that long range weapon we were talking about a few weeks ago with the laser/computer attached that won't miss.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

I may have missed.forgotten your declaration of that David, sorry. Ive stated I could seriously think of banning more than 25 round mags. Naming 2,ooo guns which are not banned is just as stupid as banning.
Yes ome guns should not be available to the general public, they are presently, unacvailable to the general public. A class III license must be obtained to own an assault weapon, as it should be.

If people are serious about ending gun crimes, then they should get off their kick of harassing the lawful gun owner, who is not a threat, and go after criminals. Why is that so hard to grasp, stop crime, arrest and convict criminials. To gain support from gun owners, prove you are serious about what you speak.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Elvis wrote,

There are no facts in dispute, so I conclude that FTM is again interrogating posters for no valid purpose. How tiresome.

Your conclusion is incorrect.

Why do you post misinformation and then refuse to retract it? Do you consider yourself to be an honest person?


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

People on a shooting range do not have weapons there for self-defense, they are there to test or just a hobby.

If one has a weapon for concealed carry, or is carrying it for the straight fact of defense, the one's attitude toward how and why he has it is totally different.

BS. Sorry, but this is the whole point of the gun toting argument.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Yawn. Moving on.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Elvis wrote,

Yawn. Moving on.

I understand that you choose to avoid taking responsibility for posting falsehoods rather than to have the integrity and honesty to retract your misstatements. That's typical behavior for many conservatives who lack character. They are so afraid of truth and honesty they avoid it by "moving on" or engaging in other responsibility-evading tactics.

Why is taking responsibility for your words so frightening?


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Sorry, but I protest the BS of demanding disarming criminals as an answer to controlling deaths of innocents. We already have outstanding evidence that the wave of massacres are rarely associated with criminal elements. Sure the perps are immediately claimed to be criminals for the felony of murder and grave injuries.

Falling back on rounding up all the mentally diseased and defective people and establishing a data base or two or a hundred is soooo soooo unconstitutional. Damn.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Posted by elly_

If one has a weapon for concealed carry, or is carrying it for the straight fact of defense, the one's attitude toward how and why he has it is totally different.

"BS. Sorry, but this is the whole point of the gun toting argument."---------NO it is not, except to narrow minded specious schlemiels who are usually ignorant of fire-arms and probably have a paranoid fear of them.

Better than 99 percent of fire-arms, legally owned, are never used for active self-defense and anyone who thinks that there is something wrong with having such a low number is either a complete idiot or sick SOB.
The fire-arm is most effective for self-defense if it never has to be used.
Use is a LAST resort.

I have never actively used any of the fire-arms I have for that purpose, for that purpose.
I pray to God I never do, and thank him for not having had to do so. (I was once threatened with gun violence by a renter, with a policeman standing there.
When the cop asked if I wanted to press charges I said let it go, but I did ask the cop how much of a threat I had to endure before pulling a trigger and he said shoot him through the door.)

Hell will freeze before I willingly give up the RIGHT to own any fire-arm I choose for any reason I choose, without having to go through a dictatorial government controlled hoop to do so.

This post was edited by RpR_ on Fri, Feb 8, 13 at 0:10


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

If people are serious about ending gun crimes, then they should get off their kick of harassing the lawful gun owner, who is not a threat, and go after criminals.

Many who use a gun are not criminals until AFTER they've wounded or killed someone. That's the problem that people are concerned about. Think domestic violence, mass murder, someone getting angry at someone else (former boss, a neighbor, etc.).
Most of these are/were "lawful gun owners".

So, what do you propose to do about these "lawful gun owners" who have never, before using these "lawful" guns, were in any criminal database?


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Posted by dockside

"Many who use a gun are not criminals until AFTER they've wounded or killed someone. That's the problem that people are concerned about. Think domestic violence, mass murder, someone getting angry at someone else (former boss, a neighbor, etc.).
Most of these are/were "lawful gun owners".

So, what do you propose to do about these "lawful gun owners" who have never, before using these "lawful" guns, were in any criminal database?"--------Ah the paranoid left-wing, nut-job cry of-- gun owners being guilty till proven innocent.

The are now selling bunkers you can buy and hide in.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

You've got it backward, RpR. It is usually the gun-owner/stockpiler who owns the bunkers--their "defense" against the "out-to-get-you" government. The anti-government gun-owners are the ones who are not even interested in hunting or target-shooting or protection against criminals. As the fiercest supporters of the 2nd Amendment, they claim its sole reason for existing is so Americans can defend themselves against governmental tyranny. All this other stuff you people argue is bogus to them.

Odd, isn't it. My copy of the Constitution doesn't read that way.

Kate


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

The anti govt guys are not on most gun owners buddy list. They oppose govt of any kind and hate all pols irregardless of party. They are paranoid freaks and you never see them at shooting ranges or in the woods/fields. Their numbers arent that many but they stand out due to 5their radicl views and large mouths.

The 2nd is to defend against tyranny, lots of proof on that. That, they are correct on.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Just that there aren't any examples of any successful defense against tyranny.

Quite the opposite.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

  • Posted by RpR_ 3-4 (My Page) on
    Fri, Feb 8, 13 at 14:32

Posted by fancifowl

"The anti govt guys are not on most gun owners buddy list. They oppose govt of any kind and hate all pols irregardless of party. They are paranoid freaks and you never see them at shooting ranges or in the woods/fields. Their numbers arent that many but they stand out due to their radical views and large mouths.

The 2nd is to defend against tyranny, lots of proof on that. That, they are correct on."---------You are terribly wrong about one thing.
True separatists are generally people who simply want to be left alone by every one.

It is not their large mouths that causes them to be in the head-lines. Usually are a very quiet person/people, which is what people who want to be left alone are. You leave them alone, they leave you alone.

The head-hunting for fear mongering, by the far-left nut-job press, who hunt down, the rare odd-ball, using sensationalist tabloid methods.
They then make them to be the head-line news whilst the press is saying-- they-- and more often all gun owners are implied to be included in the-- they-- are like this.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Paranoia rules


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Correction: the 2nd amendment ensures that a "well-regulated militia" is armed to PROTECT the government against INSURRECTION.

Strange how some people turn these things inside out so that they end up saying the exact opposite of what was originally intended.

Kate


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

actually, the well regulated militia is 'the people'.
As Thomas Jefferson said,"No free manshall evr be debarred the use of arms".
or as Patrick Henry stated, "The militia sir,is our ultimate safety.We can have no security without it.....The great object is, thatevery man be armed...every one who is able may have a gun".
George Mason got it, "To disarm the people is the best and most efficient way to enslave the".
ZachariAH JOHNSTON SAID, "tHE PEOPLE ARE NOT TO BE DISARMED OF THEIR WEAPONS. tHEY ARE LEFT IN FULL POSESSION OF THEM".

kATE, what is it ou are reading?


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

So, what do you propose to do about these "lawful gun owners" who have never, before using these "lawful" guns, were in any criminal database?"--------Ah the paranoid left-wing, nut-job cry of-- gun owners being guilty till proven innocent.

The are now selling bunkers you can buy and hide in.

So your response to a serious question is to call over half of the American citizenry paranoid left-wing, nut-jobs and offering as a solution to buy a bunker? What a rational, thoughtful response. (sarcasm intended)

All your response tells me is that you have no good solution. And, since when is registering gun owners a "punishment" brought about by being guilty until proven innocent? Requring registration does not assume guilt nor innocense. But, it would help reduce the possession of guns by those not entitled to have them, allow law enforcement to track ownership, when required, and possibly reduce the deaths of many who are killed by these people who have "lawful" guns.

I thought I'd learned a lesson months ago, but, obviously I forgot - that it is impossible to rationally discuss issues with people who are so blind with irrational ideas that they will not see. No more. I'm done with this subject.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

  • Posted by RpR_ 3-4 (My Page) on
    Fri, Feb 8, 13 at 17:59

Posted by dublinbay

"Correction: the 2nd amendment ensures that a "well-regulated militia" is armed to PROTECT the government against INSURRECTION.

Strange how some people turn these things inside out so that they end up saying the exact opposite of what was originally intended."---------Only if one is ignorant of the rules of grammar that apply as it is written.

--------As passed by the Congress:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. ------------

Those little thingies in there, called commas, mean things.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

RpR is here to enflame the discussion, not clarify it.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

  • Posted by RpR_ 3-4 (My Page) on
    Fri, Feb 8, 13 at 18:02

Posted by dockside

"So your response to a serious question is to call over half of the American citizenry paranoid left-wing, nut-jobs and offering as a solution to buy a bunker? "------No only to the left-wing, nut-jobs on this site who are having a snit-fit.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Apparently having an opinion other than that of rpr also makes you silly and ignorant.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

  • Posted by RpR_ 3-4 (My Page) on
    Fri, Feb 8, 13 at 19:34

Posted by marshall

"RpR is here to enflame the discussion, not clarify it."--------Hmmm, let us see, right-wing, nut-job is not biased but left-wingl nut-job is.

Pointing out facts about the Second Amendment are inflammatory.

Calling a biased statement, based on ignorance, a biased ignorant statement, while true, should not be said as only trash talking about conservatives is allowed on this site.

Fascinating.

There is an old saying-- what goes around, comes around.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

No, there is nothing inherently inflammatory about the words "Second Amendment". What is inflammatory are most of the other words you paint ball onto those hallowed words.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

I realize Dockside has excused himself from this thread, but I have comments that require no answers, so...

"And, since when is registering gun owners a "punishment" brought about by being guilty until proven innocent? Requring registration does not assume guilt nor innocense. But, it would help reduce the possession of guns by those not entitled to have them, allow law enforcement to track ownership, when required, and possibly reduce the deaths of many who are killed by these people who have "lawful" guns."

"it would help reduce the possession of guns by those not entitled to have them"

How would that work? If one is not entitled to own a gun, would they register the gun to which they are not entitled? Nope.

"...allow law enforcement to track ownership, when required,"

When exactly would that be? Why would anyone be so clueless as to commit a crime with a gun registered to him/her? He/she wouldn't. I guess one could say that no lawful owner of a registered gun would commit any more gun-related crimes, lest they be more likely caught; but are these the people most likely to commit crimes? I don't think so. So what is the circumstance under which the police would "be required" to know who owns the (registered) guns? I don't like the implications of that one little bit.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

well, the anto gun folks are losing another battle, what they have left is name calling, lies and trying to make light of the real problems facing society today. They arent gonna face the facts. Its a criminal problem. There is only one reason to disarm the people.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

One of the real problems of society today is gun-owners with attitudes like a few of our posters. But keep yapping on. That most of us are tired of trying to communicate with you does not mean we are "losing another battle," as you so quaintly put it. It just means that when very few posters(or no one) wants to talk with you any more, you get the false illusion that you have "won" something--although nobody knows that that is.

For the record, what I mainly notice is that your answers are smart-alecky rather than informative (how young are you?) and that you heap an incredible amount of scorn on others and then declare yourself the "winner" when others do not want to engage in a prolonged game of dumping on each other.

You act like a teenager, yet you claim you are senior citizen age. Perhaps time to grow up--while there is still time left to accomplish it?

OK--now go play your game of who can be the most smart-alecky. Myself, I'm checking out of here because there is absolutely nothing of value to be gained from this thread any more.

Bye, bye.

Kate


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

whare are your facts kate? You accuse me of exactly what you seem to do? is that another tactic of the left?When I post facts, you disappear.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Posted by dublinbay

"OK--now go play your game of who can be the most smart-alecky. Myself, I'm checking out of here because there is absolutely nothing of value to be gained from this thread any more.
Bye, bye.
Kate"-------- Happy trails to you, until we meet again.
Happy trails to you, keep smilin' until then.
Who cares about the clouds when we're together?
Just sing a song and bring the sunny weather.
Happy trails to you, 'till we meet again.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

RpR wrote,

Only if one is ignorant of the rules of grammar that apply as it is written.

You have already proven that you have no standing whatsoever on the subject of proper written English. You may recall that the very authorities you cited in support of your usage instead schooled you in this thread, and yet you continue to make that same error over and over again (and you've now added "head-line" to the pile).

So, your trying to claim that you're knowledgeable about the use of punctuation is demonstrably absurd.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

Posted by Factotem
"You have already proven that you have no standing whatsoever on the subject of proper written English. You may recall that the very authorities you cited in support of your usage instead schooled you in this thread, and yet you continue to make that same error over and over again (and you've now added "head-line" to the pile).

So, your trying to claim that you're knowledgeable about the use of punctuation is demonstrably absurd. "-------------I am sure the more you write, the greater the legend of your-self in your mind increases.
Happy Trails to you....


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

How much is the NRA paying you, RpR? You never posted before here, and now you have hogged every gun thread on HT.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

hmmm so are we having a battle between the NRA and the DNC? RpR is not the only new one to the game.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

RpR wrote,

I am sure the more you write, the greater the legend of your-self in your mind increases.

I guess we can add that to the lengthy list of things you are sure of that are wrong. But nice attempt to avoid the point.

And, "your-self"? You keep proving the point over and over again.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

  • Posted by RpR_ 3-4 (My Page) on
    Sat, Feb 9, 13 at 15:05

Posted by Factotem

" You keep proving the point over and over again."------Why thank you.
------------

This post was edited by RpR_ on Sat, Feb 9, 13 at 20:44


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

RpR wrote,

Posted by Factotem

" You keep proving the point over and over again."------Why thank you.

You're welcome. Rare that someone thanks me for showing them they are wrong. Again.


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RE: So a guy walks into a shooting range...

  • Posted by RpR_ 3-4 (My Page) on
    Sat, Feb 9, 13 at 22:59

No do not be so humble, the legend you hold in your mind of your-self is absolutely huge.
You are welcome to it.


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