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Preschool

Posted by marquest z5 PA (My Page) on
Wed, Feb 13, 13 at 12:36

During the SOTU last night something came up that I was not aware.....Preschool.

Is this program still available in the educational system in your city these days?

Do you have preschool in your area?

My daughter started preschool at 3 yrs old. At the time children could not enter kindergarten if they were not 5 yrs old by Sept 1 but age was waived if they had attended preschool. This was good for children born late Sept-Dec. It put those children a year behind preschool helped with that issue.

It was a great program and I attribute it to her later educational success.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Preschool

There are several private preschools, and Head Start. There was a short-lived pilot project through the public schools, but that died from lack of funding.


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RE: Preschool

Responding from Canada, so a different system but..

In Ontario we have Junior Kindergarten and Senior Kindergarten. So I guess JK would be equal to pre-school.

My son could read before he went o SK and knew the basics that they taught him there...colours, number, alphabet, etc. So educationally it does pick up if parents do not teach those at home.

But for socialization of children, it is a GREAT idea. Kids get more from being in that room with other kids, both good and bad, moreso than from just siblings or cousins. They learn how to relate to other children, handle adversity and peer interactions earlier and better.

The kindergarten teacher said she could always pick the kids who had stayed at home with mom vs the kids who were used to the interactions and routines of daycare or JK.

The ones who had stayed at home were less emotionally developed in peer interactions and less equiped to dealing with full time school.


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RE: Preschool

  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Wed, Feb 13, 13 at 12:47

Public pre-school?

There is public school pre-K available to "underprivileged" kids here, but it doesn't confer any special kindergarten admission privileges. Now, the thinking is that starting those kid born Sept-Dec, when they are still 4, is not a good idea, even with preschool preparation.

Many years ago, my three kids, born in Nov. and Dec. all went to preschool, but did not start kindergarten until they were five, and that was our choice. My DD did the same with her son, born in October. It's a good decision. We paid for preschool.


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When our kids were young they attended a pre school run by the university. We had to pay but it wasnt a whole lot, maybe 100$s per term. All of the grand kids have gone or are still attending public pre-schools. Seems like they do quite well there. They arent just baby sitters.


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Yes, the grandkids attended pre-school at the local public school before enrolling in Kindergarten.

When I was that age, pre-school didn't exist. We went right into Kindergarten, providing our birthdays fell between certain dates. Some kids were held back by the date they were born. But that was also the era where most mothers were stay-at-home, and able to teach all the needed basics before we entered Kindergarten.


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Now, the thinking is that starting those kid born Sept-Dec, when they are still 4, is not a good idea, even with preschool preparation./i>

I do not understand. Why?


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My wife and her partner have owned a Montessori preschool/kindergarten for over 30 years and they have a very good reputation with the local technology companies. Many of the companies' foreign workers, especially those from Poland and India, are eager to have their children placed at our school. We have some very good friends that had their kids attend over 25 years ago. At least two of their children are nearing completion of medical school and attribute my wife's school with giving them a "head-start".

One of the local public elementary schools is beginning a charter Montessori program next year which is sure to siphon off some potential students. But, the hiring requirements for this program are woefully lacking. The teachers are not even required to have any official Montessori training; they will learn on the job.

I'm sure that those parents that are truly interested in a good education rather than cost will gladly pay to go to our private facility (we live in a fairly affluent area, not that we fit in...)


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Well, I live in backward Oklahoma and yes we have free public education preschool for 4 year old children.
My two grandchildren who live here went to it.
They are now in 7th grade and 5th grade so is was quite some time ago that they were in it
We had a Democratic governor for 8 years and his wife was from a family of educators and so it was a priority.

At the time my grandchildren were in it Oklahoma had the most children enrolled in pre-K public education of any state in the country.
Very surprising for such a backward state.
This is why the President mentioned Oklahoma last night.

Now we have a tea party governor. I call her Reba because she looks and sounds like her. I suspect Reba is a whole lot smarter.
She is busy pushing the ALEC agenda and wants to eliminate the state tax, so who knows what will happen to the program now.


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  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Wed, Feb 13, 13 at 13:28

Age matters, four year old children just don't seem to have the social skills to do well in kindergarten, competing with five and even six year old classmates. Being able to read or any other academic skills just aren't enough, social and emotional maturity are as important as academic skills.

Most public school systems now require that students be five by Sept 1, to start kindergarten, some have even moved it back farther. A few will make exceptions, with testing and evaluations, but they are rare, and rightly so. Very few four year old children, or even soon to be five year olds are ready for a long day at school.


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Edited to delete duplicate post...

I never had this issue before the HT "upgrade"...

This post was edited by huachuma on Wed, Feb 13, 13 at 13:40


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RE: Preschool

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Wed, Feb 13, 13 at 13:41

We have all discussed the changing technology of the future, I don't know how anyone can disagree with the prez on this point ... we "must" educate our children/grandchildren in science, math and engineering for the future ... or we can teach them to flip burgers.


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Our kids were fairly proficient on a keyboard before entering school... but, of course, technology has always played a big part in our household, and there have always been more computers than people at any given time!

I think today it's more important than ever to start kids early learning the basics of technology.

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Mom that is why they waived the age because the preschool have given them the education and emotional security. Preschool was half a day and Kindergarten was half a day.

I do not feel a child should be held back because of age everyone develops different. If a child is not ready I am not saying they should be pushed but age should not be the deciding factor.


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My kids are 33 and 36, both attended private pre-school at age 3 up to public kindergarten. It's been around a long, long time.

Here in my town, there seems to be a pre-school on every corner.

Head Start has several locations too. BTW, Head Start is not a public pre-school. It's a non-profit business using Federal Funds.

Head Start is a Federal program for preschool children from low-income families. The Head Start program is operated by local non-profit organizations in almost every county in the country. Children who attend Head Start participate in a variety of educational activities. They also receive free medical and dental care, have healthy meals and snacks, and enjoy playing indoors and outdoors in a safe setting.

Head Start helps all children succeed. Services are offered to meet the special needs of children with disabilities. Most children in Head Start are between the ages of 3 and 5 years old. Services are also available to infants and toddlers in selected sites.

This post was edited by brushworks on Wed, Feb 13, 13 at 14:24


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RE: Preschool

I'll also add this.

Young children who have access to iPad, etc. are learning at accelerated rates than those 10,15, 20 years ago.

In Africa, young children who live in poverty, are learning on gifted iPads. It's not the ideal way in our eyes, but since we're not doing anything about it, the laptop per child program is their best hope for now.

Here is a link that might be useful: Children Learning Experiment.


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Age matters, four year old children just don't seem to have the social skills to do well in kindergarten, competing with five and even six year old classmates. Being able to read or any other academic skills just aren't enough, social and emotional maturity are as important as academic skills.

But that would be why there would be a pre-school... so that they are not classmates with five and six year olds.

When my son went to school, he started Junior-K at 3 yo, Senior-K at 4 yo, and Grade 1 at 5 yo. His classmates were approximately the same age.

JK and SK are primarily for teaching social skills and maturity... to learn and develop that in JK and SK instead of just plopping them in the middle of it in grade 1, two years less experience than those kids who went to JK and SK.


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You're a pretty smart woman, HG.


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  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Wed, Feb 13, 13 at 15:05

I'm not sure what your point is. Kindergarten, here, is for 5 year olds, some have just turned 5 and some will be turning six during the year. A four year old is at a disadvantage, academically, socially and emotionally, with these older children.

There are parents who don't enroll their child in kindergarten even if the have already turned 5, some will hold them back another year, for a variety of reasons.

Preschools - here usually run by churches, generally accept kids who are toilet trained - 2 1/2 or three years old. Day care is totally different, you just have to be born.

Pre-K, in the public schools is for children who will be four years old by Sept. 1 of the coming school year.

Automatic eligibility for a prekindergarten program will occur when a child meets the age of entry guidelines and is at least one of the following:
* Is from an economically disadvantaged background (i.e., eligible for free or reduced-price meal program as established by the U.S. Department of Agriculture).
* Is homeless.
* Has been identified through the IEP team process with the development of an IEP as necessitating special education classroom instruction within a general education setting.


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RE: Preschool

I'm not sure what your point is. Kindergarten, here, is for 5 year olds, some have just turned 5 and some will be turning six during the year. A four year old is at a disadvantage, academically, socially and emotionally, with these older children.

Ah, I think I see what the disconnect is.

When I speak of JK and SK, they are two separate classes. So the four year old would not be at a disadvantage with their older classmates, because the older kids are in a separate class.

Where the real disadvantage seems to come in is when a child directly enters Grade 1 without having the experience of JK, SK, daycare, or some other socializing factor with a variety of kids and rules in their background. They tend to be at a disadvantage as you said, academically, socially and emotionally, compared to the children of their own age, largely due to the experience factor.


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This is what the president would like to see in every state

So little to brag about in this state, but our pre-K public education is one thing we can brag about.

"Commentary: Poorer state sets a rich example of care for kids
Thursday, February 9, 2006
Mike Thomas
Orlando Sentinel
The state of Oklahoma took a different path from Florida in setting up pre-K education.

The state of Oklahoma took a different path from Florida in setting up pre-K education.

Rather than slap together a dumbed-down program on the cheap, Oklahoma invested in its kids.

It required pre-K teachers to have four-year degrees and a certificate in early-childhood education. It paid them the same salaries as other teachers to attract and keep good people.

The results have been impressive.

Hispanic children who attended full-day classes scored 74 percent higher in language tests and 91 percent higher in cognitive skills.

Oklahoma's results are particularly relevant to Florida given our Hispanic population and the number of kids with limited proficiency in English.

Unlike Oklahoma, Florida allows glorified day-care workers to run pre-K classes, which are limited to three hours. Florida's program is a joke, while the National Institute for Early Education Research has named Oklahoma the top state in the nation for access to quality pre-K programs."

Link to a more currant article. Sorry, I don't know how to add a second link
http://prospect.org/article/pre-k-range

"Oklahoma has bucked the national trend. Seventy-four percent of four-year-olds��"more than in any other state��"are in high-quality pre-K. Virtually every parent who wants a spot can get one, whether in a public school or in a partner organization, such as Tulsa’s Community Action Project, which runs John Kaykay’s pre-K classroom. The effort has been so thorough and so widely embraced that, in effect, public school in Oklahoma begins at age four.

Even among the states that do well by their preschoolers, Oklahoma is exceptional. On paper, nine states have universal pre--kindergarten, meaning that all four-year-olds are theoretically eligible. But in most of those states, there isn’t nearly enough funding for everyone to enroll. That’s the case in New York, where fewer than half of four-year-olds participate in the “universal” program. Other states do a superb job with enrollment but a poor job of providing the education. Florida, for instance, has the highest percentage of four-year-olds in pre-K programs��"76 percent, slightly more than Oklahoma, according to the most recent “State of Preschool” report by the National Institute for Early Education Research. But because Florida doesn’t require its teachers to have a college degree in early education��"and because the state spends so little on each child��"just $2,422 per child per year, $5,000 less than in Oklahoma��"the quality of the program is low. "

edited to add that the President is not talking about private preschool education which my children had and my grandchildren had until they entered the public school system at 4.
Have you priced preschools recently. Pretty expensive for the average lower middle class family.

Here is a link that might be useful: link

This post was edited by chloe45 on Wed, Feb 13, 13 at 15:51


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Hamilton it is the same here.

-Preschool - 4 years old. half day (this is not mandatory it is optional)

-Kindergarten 5 years old again half day mandatory- This is where it gets touch. School year starts in Aug-Sept. If the student is not 5 yrs old (birthday is Sept - Dec schools did not permit you to enroll the child until the following year Sept. by that time they are 5 yrs old but will be 6 yrs old in a few months)

In my area at the time you could enroll your child into the 1/2 day kindergarten mandatory school year at 4 yrs old if they had attended preschool.

- Next is 1st grade full day. Age 6. But if you started your child at 6 without the preschool your child is almost 7 yrs old just getting to 1st grade.

My daughter would have drove me crazy no way could she have been that old in 1st grade. She would have been bored out of her mind. That is the first thing teachers check when a child is disruptive. They finish the assignment before the other children and they cannot think of anything else to do except disrupt the class.


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My kids are in elementary school so they are not that far removed from Preschool. I went to Kindergarten when I was 4 and I was way too immature socially. Many parents are holding kids back (especially boys) so that they are 6 years old in Kindergarten and a 4 year old cannot integrate with them socially.

In addition, much more is required of this generation than previous ones. In my day, Kindergarten was 3 hours with a nap in the middle. Now, kids in Kindergarten have homework every night. They have to hit the ground running. Kids who did not attend preschool do not know how to behave, sit in circle time,etc and it is a distinct disadvantage.

There are kids who enter Kindergarten reading chapter books and other kids who don't even know their letters. One girl didn't know her colors. I don't have any idea what a parent could be doing that they don't have time to teach colors, the most basic thing you learn as a toddler.


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In British Colombia a child enters kindergarten if they turn 5 between Jan.1 and Dec. 31 of that particular year. I actually don't understand what the difference is between that and the way marquest's school operates.

It sounds like for them that the age cut-off is August 31. So then the following year the kids born in the previous September will be the oldest and the ones born in August will be the youngest. There will always be the oldest and the youngest and between those there will always be 12 months difference. Cut-offs don't really matter.

My son was born at the end of November and was and continues to be the social leader. He was the social leader in kindergarten and in pre-school. He had difficulties with reading and that would have happened regardless of when he started school. He is now 25 and has always had friends with a wide range of ages.

Our province actually tried a dual-entry timetable. What a disaster that turned out to be. Fortunately it was ended before my kids started school.

We do have pre-school but it is privately funded by the parents and most kids do go for at least one year. The age cut-off is the same as for school so my son started pre-school in September at the age of 2 and he turned 3 at the end of November.


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Yes, in Wisconsin we have 4 year-old kindergarten in the public schools. This caused the demise of many day care providers, but provided day care for 4 year-olds at the expense of the taxpayer. A double-edged sword, if you will.


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There are advantages and disadvantages to 'socializing' kids. Some teachers in the lower grades say there is *too much* 'group think' and not enough independent thought or personal responsibility for achievement.

With so many parents working, many kids are in some kind of day care almost from Day One -- long hours away from home -- a lot of stress for a little body and mind. Too much 'school' means some kids are burned out on the whole routine of it before their minds are ready to enjoy learning for its own sake.

I'm more concerned that kids have *meaningful* and publicly funded high schooling. Not every life should *require* an expensive college education, but present high school degrees are nearly worthless.


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Preschool

This is a map for the 2010-2011 school year found in the 2011 NIEER report.
Twenty-eight per cent of the country's 4-year-olds were enrolled in a state-funded preschool program in the 2010-2011 school year.
11 states have no state funded preschool programs.


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Not every life should *require* an expensive college education, but present high school degrees are nearly worthless.

Very true. Employers will not hire you to wash dishes if you only have a HS education.


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And some employers will not hire you for a particular job if you have more than a HS education.


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At one time, other characteristics and qualifications were more important in a good employee... honesty, integrity, perseverance, a willingness to learn...


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There was a segment on this subject during the News Hour yesterday. One thing that struck me was the concept of exposure to a wide vocabulary at a very young age - the more words you hear when you're very little, the better off you end up.


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At one time, other characteristics and qualifications were more important in a good employee... honesty, integrity, perseverance, a willingness to learn...

Those are all good rules but they are things that generally are not things a potential employer cannot see on paper.

And some employers will not hire you for a particular job if you have more than a HS education.

Yes they can be over qualified. The employer think you are taking the job lower than your qualification and will leave as soon as the appropriate job comes your way. Corporations are not people. They could give a rats butt about you it is all about them.


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My son started preschool at three and I was disappointed that I hadn't known Montessori began earlier. I wish we'd entered him earlier for that reason, but moreover, I wish I'd entered him earlier for socialization issues. He's an only child and he could've really benefited from being around children his age more often. There are plenty of preschools around here, but it can be price prohibitive. We kept him out because we wanted to be the ones to raise him, but when it was time to get "ready for school" there was a real sticker shock! I can't imagine what people with less income would do. I know I couldn't do it now. That was when he was making the big bucks and there were two of us. What do single parents with deadbeats who don't pay do? Ugh.


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Preschool is nice, but what's the problem with a parent staying at home with their children, working with them and teaching them, and exposing them to other children all on their own?

There are plenty of private preschools--particularly those run by churches.

Why is it that it's always called upon tax payers to subsidize decisions everyone else makes?

Schools are schools, preschool is just that--preschool.

Next we'll have to have tax payer funded infant centers where babies can look at mobiles and watch those brightly colored (Jerry Falwell objected to them, I forget what they were but I thought they were STUPID) characters.

Park your kid with someone else, or somewhere, else--but God forbid anyone have a child and want to stay home and raise it.

Yea, yea, I know--single moms need it (more personal decisions--you take that chance when you bring a life into the world) and two incomes are needed (yea, more personal decisions you know what your income is or likely to be when you have children).


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Park your kid with someone else? Aren't we a bit judgmental? My kids attended preschool from 9:00-12:00, hardly parking them with someone else. By the time they got to Kindergarten, they were fully prepared to interact with other kids, sit in circle and LEARN. My daughter could read well by age 4 BECAUSE I TAUGHT HER.

My son had and has poor social skills and preschool was a great preparation for Kindergarten so that he was ready to learn. Rather than cry in Kindergarten like I did because I stayed home with my Mother until then.


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I worked and also was a stay at home mother, so I've done it from both sides. What other people decide to do with their children and who they let influence them is their business.

I think preschool can be good--I sent my three year old two mornings a week, and the second child went one morning a week when she was very young to Mother's Day Out while I volunteered at the children's hospital, prior to two morning a week preschool as well at age three.

It was good for them, but then so was having a parent at home that taught them about life (and yes, I also taught both my daughters to read at age four when they asked--like potty training, it's not rocket science) and how to put other people first--they weren't parked in front of a television all day long and nobody shoved a Happy Meal or KFC in their little faces five evenings a week.

Whatever choices people make is their business--I just don't understand why taxpayers and government is supposed to provide the options--like preschool.

This post was edited by demifloyd on Thu, Feb 14, 13 at 12:18


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Rob, I agree only children really need the exposure more than children with siblings. My daughter definitely needed the early association. Preschool was a blessing to bring her out of her only child shell.

I did not work so I had time for the educational part the social part was needed.

It has been a long time but I do not remember our Preschool costing much. I would remember if it was expensive. She went to Catholic Parochial grade school that was very pricy.


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I don't think there is anything wrong with raising your child demi. Obviously, since I spent every Friday on "field trips" with him until he was three :) I think the home school children parents have learned the lesson I had to learn, there isn't enough social interaction, and so, now they have home school social activities for them. I thought I was doing the right thing, and I was, but maybe I should've had him more social activities more often. Preschool is good for that.

redsox, that is something I noticed on the first day of kindergarten. It was fairly evident which kids had been to preschool as the interacted quite freely whereas the others were a bit more reticent. I'm sure they caught up quickly, but I sure felt for those kids.


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"(...I also taught both my daughters to read at age four when they asked--like potty training, it's not rocket science)"

Unfortunately for some kids, like my DS1, reading IS like rocket science. I stayed at home, did all the reading to him like you're supposed to, talked to him, had books available, all to no avail. Thanks heavens for Sylvan. DS2 picked up reading like it was nothing.

Being a stay-at-home mom or not, pre-school or not, Montessori or not, Kids will learn to read, to tie their shoes, to socialize, etc on their own timetables and chances are, before the age of voting. (I'm being a little facetious there).
We can think that we are giving them a leg up with the choices that we, as their parents, make for them. We all make the choices that are best for them and best for us as a family.

The stay-at-home-mom, and the pre-school or not arguments are ones I'm staying away from. Talk about hot topic and hot-button issues!


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  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Thu, Feb 14, 13 at 12:51

Whew.........that was a quite a rant.

Kids who are eligible for Head Start or Pre-K programs are the ones who need it the most, and I am more than happy that my tax dollars go to to such worthwhile programs. The return on investment for education is very high, and the benefits last a lifetime.

I was a SAHM, and all three kids went to preschool - and we paid for every minute, ourselves. And it was worth every penny. Enrichment, playing with other kids, and a break from mom.

My DD is a SAHM and both kids were/are in preschool - and pay for every minute. My DGS went to a great program in a nearby church for a couple of years, and then went to a terrific pre-school program at the San Antonio Zoo. Couldn't replicate that at home.

My DGD missed going last year, in El Paso, because my DD couldn't find a preschool that wasn't a day care program. Down in Texas, they all seem to be day care, and she didn't want that. But they did lots of wonderful things around town. El Paso is such a nice place. Back in Maryland, now, and she's in a good 3 day program in the little church up the road, and loves it.

We don't have to send them, we could do it ourselves, we are middle class, college educated, etc. But this added enrichment can only benefit the kids.


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Posted by blfenton 10 (My Page) on
Thu, Feb 14, 13 at 12:37

"(...I also taught both my daughters to read at age four when they asked--like potty training, it's not rocket science)"

Unfortunately for some kids, like my DS1, reading IS like rocket science. I stayed at home, did all the reading to him like you're supposed to, talked to him, had books available, all to no avail. Thanks heavens for Sylvan. DS2 picked up reading like it was nothing.

*

You are right, blfenton.

I regret that I was not sensitive to the fact that there are children that have difficulties in processing information in order to read, and even a rocket scientist would need help to achieve that with a child with learning disabilities or learning difficulties.

For those that do not have difficulting with that process, actually teaching is not difficult. That was my point.
I know several children that have enjoyed great success at Sylvan.

I agree, blfenton--there is no "win" or "lose" in the stay at home vs. work parent. There are pros and cons to both scnarios. What is best for the child is different in different situations, and sometimes what is best for the child just isn't very feasible, or something a parent is willing to do. That's a whole 'nuther topic!

I am a supporter of preschool, but I do feel sorry for the little kids that are dragged out of bed at 5 a.m., dropped off at preschool before the parent goes to work, then picked up from preschool or after being bused to "after care" around 6 p.m. It's hard enough on elementary grade students, but very difficult from that early age to be thrown into that routine.

But--people do what they have to do.
We adapt.


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I would have to say that if the job market hadn't crashed, if wages had kept pace with the cost of living, if one partner could keep a household afloat, I think more could BE stay-at-home, charged with raising and teaching the children until such time as Kindergarten started.

But too often it takes both parents working to maintain a household, or one working more than one job, leaving the children in the hands of someone else... and often those hands belong to a daycare center where individual attention is not feasible in relation to how many children there are to care for. From daycare, a child might enter pre-school because there isn't a parent at home to care for them.

I think economics might have a lot to do with whether children go to pre-school or not.


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Please tell me I'm misunderstanding.
It's a bad thing to send your children to preschool?

Some people posting on it are so out of touch it just boggles my mind. Moms are working so they can feed and clothe their children. They don't have the option of
staying home.

Millions of kids are growing up in homes where there is not one book in the house.
They start out behind and many of them will never catch up. They will drop out of school as soon as they turn 16 . They have no skills to become productive members of society. They become a drain on society. Many turn to criminal activity .
Wouldn't it be better and cheaper to intervene in these early years ?
No, I guess not if I'm understanding this thread.
You'd rather pay to house them in a for profit prison on down the road.
I just can't believe what I'm reading.


Preschools are very expensive now.
My son has twins. They are not identical and developmentally they are at different levels.
Last year the one twin attended a lab school (she was 5)
at a university . They live in the midwest, so not an expensive part of the country. The cost per month for her was $700.00.
My daughter's two children are 13 and 11 and when they went to these church type preschool all those years ago she was paying $500 a month for the two of them for 3 half days a week. It is most certainly a lot more expensive today even at these church pre-schools.
Many, many young families can't afford even the most basic pre-school


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What I have been told by more than one source is that if a child is not functionally literate by the end of 3rd grade, they are getting a prison cell built for them. Evidently, 3rd grade is the cutoff because if you are not literate by then, you can't catch up.

Prison is pretty expensive for the taxpayers, no?


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"No, I guess not if I'm understanding this thread.
You'd rather pay to house them in a for profit prison on down the road.
I just can't believe what I'm reading."

*
No, I'd rather not pay for anyone in prison--no more than I should have to pay for my own children in preschool AND someone else's. If you can't afford your children and give them the attention they need without constant help from the taxpayer then DON'T HAVE THEM.

It's not a "preschool or prison" proposition.
It's an "exercise personal responsibility and rear your children not to become criminals" situation. Whether that involves preschool or not is up to the parent--but certainly NOT the responsibility of those that actually pay income taxes.

Preschool is nice, but it is not necessary.
I would say that many posters here never went to preschool and we seem to be doing fine.
It's certainly nothing the taxpayers should be forced to subsidize.

___

"Many, many young families can't afford even the most basic pre-school "

*

So--don't send them to preschool.

You either stay home with them, pawn them off on relatives, or send them to churches or preschools.

Either way--it's the reponsibility of the parents.

Lots of things that aren't necessary are expensive.
It is not the taxpayer's duty to provide preschool for parents that want it for their children but decide they "can't afford it."
It's not a NECESSITY.

People should think of these things before producing children,.


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RE: Preschool

No, no... I think it's a good thing to introduce children to social situations early in life... I think one could consider pre-school a leg up... but not necessarily a necessity. Not all kids need pre-school... someone mentioned somewhere above that children all learn at different levels, being individuals. I simply think a lot of parents are strapped by economic conditions, and pre-school is a help.

I didn't attend school prior to Kindergarten, but my Mom was at home all the time, teaching us, reading with us, etc... and because of extended family and loads of neighborhood kids, I was already socialized, I guess you could say. My siblings and I walked into Kindergarten ready for it.

Our grandkids didn't benefit from pre-school except for the social aspect. My daughter worked extensively with them, being a stay-at-home Mom up to that point.

I don't see pre-school as being of benefit for EVERY child, though it can be of definite benefit for some. And I'm sure that economics plays a part in many homes. If it's necessary for both parents to work, that's a half day that can be scheduled around.


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RE: Preschool

Demi, I used to think like you in my 20's and didn't have a lot of life experience.
As I grew older I realized that things happen that are totally out of people's control and that perhaps I needed to stop being so intolerant and judgmental.

I

Preschool is not necessary for your children or mine or my grandchildren because they have parents that can be good role models and will teach them everything that a good preschool will.
But for these children born into homes where none of that is available, this is their way out of that. It's shameful that we won't put resources into giving these children a leg up.


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RE: Preschool

Please tell me I'm misunderstanding.
It's a bad thing to send your children to preschool?

You are not hearing that from me. My opinion is children are our future and do not have a problem with taxes supporting any educational issues, education will make the country better. But I am not desperate nor is my income not sufficient to meet my needs.

I also supported school meals.


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RE: Preschool

Posted by chloe45 zone 61/2-7 (My Page) on
Thu, Feb 14, 13 at 14:36

Demi, I used to think like you in my 20's and didn't have a lot of life experience.

*

I am in my fifties and I have a great deal of life experience--that is why I think the way that I do.
We shall have to agree to disagree. Being old doesn't necessarily make one always right. ;)

Don't misunderstand--I want the best for all children, I just don't think the roughly 50% of the country should be paying for "the best" in the way of preschools for people that WANT for their children but are unwilling to make the life choices to pay for it themselves.

Preschool is not necessary and most have rightly pointed out that it's purpose is mainly socialization skills, which happen anyway. As I said, I never went and I've done great in life.

We have free schooling from first grade through twelfth grade and grants and loans for higher education.

As I said, what's next? Moms that want to work but want breast feeding for their children so we will be paying wet nurses?

Same principle.

People should be able to have the number of children they want, but they should NOT expect taxpayers to pay for unnecessary preschool, especially with the debt this country is under with only half PAYING FEDERAL INCOME TAX.


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RE: Preschool

I want programs like Head start to work. I heard Pres. Obama state in his speech that it and other pre-K programs were working and they needed to be enlarged. But I have also read that by the end of the 3rd grade any advantage has disappeared. I have spent a number of hours attempting to make sense of the official reports and to tell the truth, the charts seemed to be designed to obscure facts rather than show them. I find it hard to believe either view completely.

My experience is limited. I wasn't in the areas that Head-start typically serves but in my naivety I assumed that if you exposed disadvantaged children to advantages it would be beneficial. Now I wonder if we are missing something. Could it be that since the decline occurs after they leave the program and continues through the 3rd grade that contact and interaction with peers that did not have access to Head-start might have had a negative affect?

Certainly they would be outnumbered and their peers might be resentful that they did not have the same advantage which might cause the Head-start child to try to conform to his peers rather than the other way around. After all, the reports do say the Head-start child had less aggression and one of the grievances I read about most often is that they are "trying to act different" or "better" than others. Are they being disadvantaged by the very advantages we are trying to give them? Would the chance of keeping the advantages improve if all those children had access to Head-start? Or is it something else entirely?

I am sorry to say that many of the Charter Schools (primarily A-A students)endorsed by Ball State here in Indiana will be losing their charters after this year because of Academics. I had high hopes for them and will be sorry to see them close. Do you have any thoughts on this subject?



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RE: Preschool

As I grew older I realized that things happen that are totally out of people's control and that perhaps I needed to stop being so intolerant and judgmental.

chloe45, As I have gone through life I have learned age is a number. I have seen a lot of people at a certain age you would think that they would know certain things. Just as children learn at a slower pace it does not stop at childhood.

Prison is pretty expensive for the taxpayers, no?

It is not only expensive it is dangerous to the families that lose family members due to the consequences of the actions of the criminals. The country does not need to save a few pennies on the front end to pay in the back end. Either way there is a cost to our society.


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RE: Preschool

Sleepless,

My brother works in Head Start Admin. Student performance and motivation ends when they return to a poor home environment. They go into self survival mode. You can love kids all day, teach them, feed them, etc. But if they go home to poverty and verbal abuse, your efforts are non-productive or greatly reduced.

Yes, they are excited to see you tomorrow, but their life is a vicious cycle of he loves me, he loves me not.


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RE: Preschool

My brother works in Head Start Admin. Student performance and motivation ends when they return to a poor home environment. They go into self survival mode. You can love kids all day, teach them, feed them, etc. But if they go home to poverty and verbal abuse, your efforts are non-productive or greatly reduced.

*

EXACTLY.

All the good intentions and money in the world thrown at problems cannot solve the fruits of lack of personal responsibility.


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RE: Preschool

  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Thu, Feb 14, 13 at 15:54

Student performance and motivation ends when they return to a poor home environment. Not true for most kids in Head Start.

Many thrive and succeed and Head Start gives them a great foundation. Most children don't return to a "poor home environment", it may not be as lush as we have, but it's not "poor". More Head Start children graduate from high school than those who weren't in Head Start (all were born in poverty) and far fewer were arrested for crimes.

We MUST continue to invest in our children.


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RE: Preschool

Back in my young life kindergarten was private in my little town, so my parents put me in a taxi every morning and off I went when I was five.

I was a SAHM, educated in early childhood development, so my kids did not go to preschool if it even was available. I did not send my son to kindergarten when he was five, because I thought he was socially unskilled and being a male sent him at 6. He was 18 when he graduated HS but soon turned 19 and graduated college at 23 instead of 22. My daughter was very advanced and had an early Feb. birthday to boot, so she went off at 5 to kindergarten. Both did well in school and college.

I was so glad I could stay home when they were preschool age. They had a great childhood getting up ,eating breakfast in their jammies and watching Captain Kangaroo. We lived on a street with a gazillion little kids and all stay at home moms. It was the 60's, so they never lacked for friends. Idyllic childhoods. They were not dragged off in the dark in the winter , not to see their mother for 12 hours. I see the kids in the daycare on my walk and it bothers me the mothers are carrying the kids with their cell phones up to their ears. Call me a fuddy duddy.

But my grandson went off to day care before he was a year. It was in daughter's office building so she saw him much of the day like lunch time and breaks.

It's a different time. We were not rich by a long shot but had different values, I guess. We drove a beat up VW bug.


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RE: Preschool

I do think if a woman/man want to stay home they should. Although after kids are in school all day I do not know what I would have done with my energy allllllll dayyyyyy. I would have crawled the walls.

Lily, I lived in a mostly stay at home parent neighborhood. We all had our kids in preschool. When we dropped them off we were headed to the gym, shopped, and joined art classes. Those were fun days.


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RE: Preschool

I know the 'days of my life' are not coming back, but I think it was easier to be a kid then. Because more homes had an adult IN them all day, it was safe for my pal and I to walk eight residential blocks to school. Because my grandmother lived with us, I could walk home for lunch (60 mins. for lunch) and walk back toschool. We walked home too. In bad weather somebody's mom drove.

I got up at 7 a.m. (not five), had a cooked breakfast, went to school, had an hour to unwind during lunch, had exercise coming and going and at daily recess. I was home by four (not after six).

In my present town, there are lots of SAHM's, but they aren't doing child care. They are at the gym, the shops, whatever. Staying at home with your kids is TOO HARD. Nannies abound. Some kids can't speak English. These are the parents *I* wonder about, more than 'the poor'. Their children are thisclose to being accessories, like the required Golden Retriever.

DS has been house-parent for our DGS and DGD as babies and up to pre-school ages. DIL teaches. DS is also a paramedic. Child care has been 'in house', from parents, augmented by the retired teacher who lives next door.

Our DS had a neighborhood of kids to play with, as did I. Again, that was 'safe' because almost every house had an adult IN it most of the day. Nobody supervised our play, although we were well monitored. (I do not believe there are any more 'perverts' around today than there were then!)

I understand that some parents MUST work -- my own divorced mother did -- but when it's more for having 'things' than putting food on the table...gotta wonder about that household and the whole society.


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RE: Preschool

There is an interesting column by David Brooks at the link - who is encouraged at the approach the Obama Administration is taking.

- snip - But, on this subject, it's best to be hardheaded. So I spent Wednesday and Thursday talking with experts and administration officials, trying to be skeptical. Does the president's plan merely expand the failing federal effort or does it focus on quality and reform? Is the president trying to organize a bloated centralized program or is he trying to be a catalyst for local experimentation?

So far the news is very good. Obama is trying to significantly increase the number of kids with access to early education. The White House will come up with a dedicated revenue stream that will fund early education projects without adding to the deficit. These federal dollars will be used to match state spending, giving states, many of whom want to move aggressively, further incentive to expand and create programs.

But Washington's main role will be to measure outcomes, not determine the way states design their operations. Washington will insist that states establish good assessment tools. They will insist that pre-K efforts align with the K-12 system. But beyond that, states will have a lot of latitude.

Should early education centers be integrated with K-12 school buildings or not? Should the early childhood teachers be unionized or certified? Obama officials say they want to leave those sorts of questions up to state experimentation. "I'm just about building quality," Education Secretary Arne Duncan told me. The goal is to make the federal oversight as simple as possible.

That's crucial. There's still a lot we don't know about how to educate children that young. The essential thing is to build systems that can measure progress, learn and adapt to local circumstances. Over time, many children will migrate from Head Start into state programs.

This is rude to say, but here's what this is about: Millions of parents don't have the means, the skill or, in some cases, the interest in building their children's future. Early childhood education is about building structures so both parents and children learn practical life skills. It's about getting kids from disorganized homes into rooms with kids from organized homes so good habits will rub off. It's about instilling achievement values where they are absent.

President Obama has taken on a big challenge in a realistic and ambitious way. If Republicans really believe in opportunity and local control, they will get on board.

Here is a link that might be useful: link


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RE: Preschool

There are a lot of social aspects that have changed, or aspects of the social contract that have broken down, since WE were children... economic, etc... and though there might not be more "perverts" now than there were then... I think we have to quantify that statement with "by volume of population".

What I mean by that is... if there's one spoiled apple per bushel, then ten bushels would contain ten spoiled apples altogether. So with a population that keeps multiplying, so do those within it that would cause others harm by some psychological or chemical brain imbalance... and our prison system is not set up to rehabilitate, but only to house. And our health care system is not set up to help those who can't afford the cost. With all that said, it's less safe today in more populated areas than it was when we were young children.

Somewhere in between my generation and later ones is a partial generation of "ME" folks... those folks who believe they come before their offspring. Their offspring are "this close to being accessories, like the required Golden Retriever." As if they had children because all their friends were getting pregnant, and it was the "in" thing to do. There wasn't much deep thought about what it might be like to actually have to raise that child or children.

In these respects, I can understand what Chisue means. Values seem to have skewed...

We forewent a lot of material things and comforts to simply be there for our children. No matter what time of day, the kids could walk in the door and either Mom or Dad were there, at home. As a child, I didn't miss having every popular new toy, item, or designer thing to hit the market, and I don't think our kids did, either.

Economically, wages have not kept pace with the cost of living, so more people have had to go to work... where one income used to support an average middle class household, to support the same size household today, two people must work, or one must earn a salary double the size. Often this means working two jobs, which takes away from time spent with offspring.

Where divorce was once considered a no-no, it's fairly common today to end a marriage and split up the household into one custodial parent and one part time parent.

Some folks live above their means, playing the "must keep up with the neighbors" game.

Our education system has gone through changes over time.

A lot of things seem to have changed from the time WE were children to today. But what hasn't changed is the need for our nation's youth to be well educated.




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RE: Preschool

I raised my daughter alone on one income. I think these days the one income problem is "THINGS"

When I was married we lived on one income then also. But there were no loads of things. We had one TV one car, we ate out once a month. We had a mommy and daddy date night once a month. Vacations were local and saved for a big vacation every two years.

I think people think they need two jobs because they feel they have a need for so many things.

Okay I am OT. Back to preschool.


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RE: Preschool

It used to be mar, but not any more. Inflation is far out running income these days. So many places, raises have been non-exitant or minimal. Not even "cost of living". The things my child needs are almost out of reach. Much more and I am not sure what will happen. And I don't have a droid or an iPhone or iPad or nice clothes and certainly not a vacation ever. I sometimes think I'd get a second job just to have those sorts of things, but not long from now, it's gonna have to be a needs for that second job, not wants. It would've been very different five years ago, I think. Food and gas have skyrocketed. Clothing is getting up there too. Somethings gotta give. I hope it's not me. I have a feeling I am far from alone in this situation.


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RE: Preschool

I have very mixed feelings on preschool. Some children absolutely would benefit from it and I wish that those who would benefit could gain access.

Of my 4 children, my autistic son attended an early inervention program 2 days a week and it helped him tremendously to be on grade level now. None of my other 3 have gone. One of my huge concerns is the rigidity and the above mentioned "group think." I think kids desperately also need unstructured time to explore, think, play, etc. That is going by the wayside. My oldest who is almost 15 had nap time in kindergarten. Now, no naps. It is working hard all day, and just 2 recesses in kindergarten. The other grades only get one 15 minute recess, test scores are going up but I worry about the emotional health of the children in the long run. Honestly, here kindergarten is now what first grade used to be so preschool may be necessary.


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RE: Preschool

"group think."
Your negative is my positive. I think too many are self thinkers, me, myself and I. The school shooting when a kid feels they are teased they feel the only outlet is kill. Because socialization is part of group thinking that seems to be a dying personality trait these days.

I think kids desperately also need unstructured time to explore, think, play, etc.

Another need I think is missing. Unstructured comes to learning control of your emotions, there can be balance. They are kids. They do not have any house work, bill paying, etc. Structured time of 3-4 hours a day learning you need to sit, do group activities, socialize with people around you. They have all afternoon to play, and find their little self.

It is all about balance to me. Not wild do what you want as long as you want what ever you want to do all day long. Be free. It is not life. There are limitation and early training conditioning the child to understand limitations are part of being a productive person. JMO


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RE: Preschool

For me, the group think is a problem in not being to look at a problem from other angles. Socialization can be a great thing if it is introducing the children to other perspectives but I am more concerend with children learning to approach things in only one way. Around here, as stated, it is not 3-4 hours of structured time, the kids are in school from 8:30 to 3:30 and only 30 minutes of that is unstructured. Add to it that many kids will come home and engage in other structured time, such as sports, and our kindergartners have homework too, there is little time in the afternoon for them to have unstructured time. Balance is absolutely what I see as missing, too.


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RE: Preschool

Arne Duncan is no 'educator'. His late mother was what we used to call a 'goo-goo' -- well-meaning dilatante dreamer. There's nothing wrong with that unless it becomes a city's or a nation's policy.

In Chicago, this has developed into a rich opportunity for big business to get into 'education' -- in charter schools. Big hoopla. High test scores. Then you realize this only happens in the charters that can cherry-pick. Where charters have to take ALL the neighborhood kids, they do no better than the public schools, and sometimes worse. They are also union-busters, hiring inexperienced teachers cheap and burning through them fast.

It's Government Money! Many of these Charters are not so different from the bogus and heavily advertised pseudo-colleges that will enroll anyone, set them up with government loans, take the fees, then wash people out with worthless 'degrees' and a load of debt they can't pay. 'Education' as Business.


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RE: Preschool

I forgot to mention that my grandson who went to day care in his mother's building as a one year old, but then he went to a private learning center from 3-5 and then regular kindergarten

As a stay at home mom , I wasn't thrilled my daughter didn't stay home with him till at least preschool. But she had studied many years to get thru college and masters program and had a good career which she didn't want to give up. She has risen very high in the ranks which she wouldn't have done if she lost those years. With her salary and her husband's they are able to give their only kid so much more than I was able to do. We went to the Jersey shore. They go on fabulous trips all over the world to educate their son. Of course IMO, he's spoiled with his iPhones, laptops, iPads...and clothes from only Hollister and AE, but that's just me. I was satisfied being a SAHM spending my days with my kids, but that would drive some up the walls.

I agree that today's kindergarten is like yesterdays' first grade. My kids could read a little and knew all animals and states and could do simple math but their childhood was unregimented They played when they wanted, took naps ,and didn't catch every cold or flu that went around. They still remember playing hide and seek with all the neighbor kids. A carefree five years.


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RE: Preschool

the kids are in school from 8:30 to 3:30 and only 30 minutes of that is unstructured.

Tish your kindergarten is all day? Our Kindergarten is half day. We have morning kindergarten and afternoon. The kids go to one or the other. It was the same with Preschool. They did not have a full day until 1st grade. But the day looks like 6 hrs of school and 4 hrs home time and weekends. Why is that not enough of unstructured time? What would a 5 yr old do with unstructured 10 hrs a day time if school is to much regiment?

It has been to long I do not remember if she had homework in Kindergarten or not. But my daughter loved school so much she would get up on Saturdays and wanted to go. She was shy but I think she used that shy thing to suck people in to being extra nice to her.

Lily my daughter was an only child and they tend to be spoiled. I do not see a problem with them being spoiled as long as they are taught to appreciate what they have and show manners. If my daughter started to act spoiled I would tell her that is a gift reduction. The next time she wanted something I told her that will be your gift reduction for_______(fill in the blank). She learned early there is a cost for not being appreciative and show exceptional manners at all times.

She was a well traveled kid. The school even gave her time off as education when I took her on a business trip with me. She just had to bring back a report.


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RE: Preschool

"...an only child and they tend to be spoiled."

One of my pet peeves: labelling a child "spoiled", which has very negative connotations.

Unless of course, the child has indeed been (unwittingly) damaged in which case the term "spoiled" applied to a child may be apt.


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RE: Preschool

Robin, you are far from alone in that situation, I can assure you.

I think those who may think so many people live above their means, because they can't make it on one salary, must have much higher paying careers or professions than the average blue collar worker, who struggles as a single parent to place food on the table and pay rent or mortgage, utilities, keep the car in repair, fill it with fuel, pay the insurance, and pay for all the other necessities and incidentals that it takes to live.

General life can nickel and dime a small family into the poor house. With medical costs, dental, school costs, the high cost of repairs to home and vehicle, and just what it costs to go through day to day life, one often can barely manage, though tightly budgeted, with the wages earned working a 40 hour week.

There's a big difference between tax brackets, and what that higher salary can buy.

Due to circumstances beyond our control, we raised three children on a total gross income of $12,000 annually or less... usually much less. Today, the two of us live on half or much less than that annually. It gives frugality a whole new meaning.

So, I think we can say with all honesty that economics can easily play a role.

Hang in there, Robin... it does get better. :-)



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RE: Preschool

OK, go ahead, complain about "free medical and dental care, ...healthy meals and snacks" for preK children and cite studies questioning how much difference Head Start really makes. Yes, if we can't solve every problem let's do nothing whatsoever, and God forbid that taxes are raised incrementally to make improvements to public education.
The RW ideology on this is so jazzed up and azz backwards.

And Head Start is not exactly what President Obama proposed. He proposed universal pre-school. Presumably there would be more of a mixture of children from various socio-economic backgrounds in a public pre-school than in a Head Start program. Perhaps that would help to expose children from broken homes to kids from homes that are not dysfunctional. Perhaps that would avoid grouping minority kids in programs designed for underprivileged creating a Jim Crow Jr. situation.

Well there goes Obama again, that lousy Socialist liberal Kenyan wants to shove Socialism down your throat. Far better to b1tch about Obama giving all of YOUR money to his black friends in Chicago then to pony up a few dollars to try to improve our society.

Well, the GOPer answer to "Mr. Obama" is to blame the plight of minority kids who end up in prison on a lack of personal responsibility. OK, so what is the GOPer plan if any? Is it really to somehow instill personal responsibility into kids who grow up in blighted inner city neighborhoods - places where homes and schools are literally crumbling, where businesses are shuttered, there are few if any jobs, and where the law of the gun and the drug lords rule the streets? Or is "personal responsibility" just fun to say while you put your nose up and walk away from any effort to address problems in our country?

This post was edited by heri_cles on Sat, Feb 16, 13 at 0:12


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RE: Preschool

Well, the GOPer answer to "Mr. Obama" is to blame the plight of minority kids who end up in prison on a lack of personal responsibility. OK, so what is the GOPer plan if any? Is it really to somehow instill personal responsibility into kids who grow up in blighted inner city neighborhoods - places where homes and schools are literally crumbling, where businesses are shuttered, there are few if any jobs, and where the law of the gun and the drug lords rule the streets? Or is "personal responsibility" just fun to say while you put your nose up and walk away from any effort to address problems in our country?

*

No matter how poor, how blighted a neighborhood, how many drugs are in a neighborhood and how many absent parents there are, this is NO EXCUSE for robbing people and killing people or dealing drugs.

People every day manage to get out of these situations by perseverance and character--my dad did that, he was one of the few people he knew in school that did not wind up dead or in prison--a very very rough neighborhood.

Don't tell me people don't have choices.

Once they make the bad choices, sympathy goes out the window.

We can't blanket social engineer this country because were are ENCOURAGING the failures that are produced by SUBSIDIZING the behavior.

Fifteen, pregnant and don't know who the baby daddy is?
Go to the local hospital, have that baby and don't owe a dime.
Joe Taxpayer will foot the bill while you leave in a free car seat, with free postnatal care, free care for the baby, and a community baby shower to give you diapers and blankets.

Two months later little ______(fill in the name) is ignored, sitting in dirty diapers while Mama is out getting pregnant by another nameless baby daddy and thirty year old Grandma is smoking crack but supposed to be watching the baby.

You're right--what kind of chance does this kid have?
You can stick him in every Headstart program you want, you can give him free care, but the chances of him possessing or developing the character to get out of that situation (yes, some DO) are about nil.

So fifteen years later, after Headstart and free inoculations, not learning how to read because no one in his family can or cares enough to teach him, and because teachers pass him when he can't because they are FORCED BY POLICY to pass him anyway, he gets a gun, breaks in a house, kills a sixty year old woman in order to get $20 for drugs or to impress his peers.

There aren't any easy answers--but they aren't to subsidize this behavior.

We have too many children being beaten, discouraged, ignored--and their families are receiving benefits.

I think we should start by serious investigations into a family's homelife before giving them all of these benefits. If the home appears safe and reasonable, then give them the benefits and monitor and insure there is progress being made to get them off the benefits--there should be time restrictions.

If they don't meet criteria, take the children from them and put them in group homes and don't give the parents anything.

People will generally not do what they should do until they HAVE to do it.

Subsidizing this behavior is only encouraging it--look what The Great Society has brought us to--this conversation.

It just doesn't work


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RE: Preschool

"Don't tell me people don't have choices.

Once they make the bad choices, sympathy goes out the window."

Here 's the problem, demi. Who gets to judge just what are and aren't bad choices? you? me? Some other jury of experts? What you are suggesting and validating is that you can continue to be judgmental of others.

And when it comes to pre-schoolers, you are by default judging them because you judge the actions of those who raise them. And that is wrong.


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RE: Preschool

Posted by jmc01 (My Page) on
Sat, Feb 16, 13 at 8:54

"Don't tell me people don't have choices.

Once they make the bad choices, sympathy goes out the window."

Here 's the problem, demi. Who gets to judge just what are and aren't bad choices? you? me? Some other jury of experts? What you are suggesting and validating is that you can continue to be judgmental of others.

And when it comes to pre-schoolers, you are by default judging them because you judge the actions of those who raise them. And that is wrong.

*

Apparently you want to talk about ME and not the topic, or what I said.

Did it occur to you that YOU JUST JUDGED ME?

Good God, it's impossible to state an opinion around here without this nonsense.


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RE: Preschool

How about this--I consider it is a "bad decision" when it is a decision that causes someone else trouble, hurt, or expense and was not necessary.


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RE: Preschool

This thread has been a real eye opener.

The president is proposing 4 year old pre-K for everyone like we have here in Oklahoma, not just for those that would qualify for Head Start.
Demi are you saying that all those children from lower middle class families whose parents can't afford $700 a month for a quality pre-school are going to end up as those ghetto children you described above.
Believe it or not , there are plenty of very good families who can't afford pre-school whose children would benefit.
$700 a month is a huge amount of money to many decent young families.

Since this very RED poor backward state has had for years what the President is proposing, I never dreamed that there would be this kind of resistance.
We also have all day Kindergarten here.
When my children went in the late 70's it was half day.

We have all the money in the world for corporate welfare, but one dime spent on our future generation is too much.
Unbelievable.


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RE: Preschool

Demi are you saying that all those children from lower middle class families whose parents can't afford $700 a month for a quality pre-school are going to end up as those ghetto children you described above.

*

That is such a ridiculous and asinine question--of course not.

*

Read my other posts.

Children aren't destined to become "ghetto children" and adults in jail because they don't attend preschool.

When are parents going to BUCK UP and educate their own children, and see to them, before they start kindergarten--which is ALREADY PAID FOR BY TAXPAYERS.

As I said, next thing we'll be disparaging those that actually DO pay federal income taxes for not supporting "infant play groups" so that these children do not become criminals one day.

Good Grief.

The answer is always SOMEONE ELSE'S MONEY, isn't it?
It's never personal responsibility.

Well--look where 40 years of someone else's money and little to no personal responsibility has gotten us.

More crime, teachers being FORCED to pass failing students so they'll feel good about themselves, more people without integrity, character, and a work ethic.

Good job, liberals--taxpayer money thrown at people and no accountability to go with it.

And now you want more to do it to children even younger.


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RE: Preschool

Rob I know it is difficult. I was where you are..I raised a severe asthmatic child and no child support. I had the bad taste of choosing a husband that was a "do as I say or I will make you do as I say". He thought that if he did not send support I would give in and come running back be the stay at home wife and be happy.

I could not leave my job and go to all the court cases to fight for child support because I would lose both sick time and money for the day that I needed to care for my daughter. Even if you go to court unless they attach the spouses wages you still get nothing. We had a very lax support enforcement system.

Women do not make what men make so to survive and to afford the asthma medicine and breathing treatments and, and all the other child care necessities I had to have a second income. Even with employment health insurance there was a co-payment. I continued to sew. There were days I was up sewing all night finishing a bridal gown getting up from a sewing machine and not my bed getting sleep heading to the shower and off to work.

So I have a soft spot in my heart for single moms. I do all I can by voting for candidates that get that support is needed and I do not have a problem of "tax" the rich to help the poor. Those few extra pennies and it is pennies in comparison of what you make vs what someone with more has to support the country.

It does not make me feel good to say "Those people do not have Personal Responsibility". It does nothing for my ego to think I have so much and look down on anyone because I have a little more. That is not a productive argument or solution for our kids. It is something a person says to make them feel good to give the impression that they have a standing in life that they think makes them look good.

If you notice I said OUR KIDS. That is how I feel if there is a child born I think of it as our kid. It is a human being on this earth that did not ask to come here and it does not have Personal Responsibility it is our personal responsibility as citizens to give that child the best education and opportunities without judging the parent/s. We are not educating the parents, we are not feeding the parents, but we are educating and feeding the kid.

and.......Rob (((((HUG))))) keep fighting you will make it. I for one will continue to be in your corner because I walked a mile in your shoes and I know you are struggling. You will look back on these days and be a stronger woman than the ones that do not have a clue of what a real person looks like with Personal Responsibility.


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RE: Preschool

Who said single moms don't have personal responsibility?

Did anything say anything other than complimentary things about Rob and what a fine job she seems to be doing, not only as a single mom, but as a human being--and expressing herself, and her attitude from what she has said on this forum?

I thought we were talking about taxpayers footing the bill for preschool for children's whose parents did not want to pay for it, and said they "could not."


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RE: Preschool

The answer is always SOMEONE ELSE'S MONEY, isn't it?

Yes, it is always the answer. Whether for satellites, space shuttles, exploration of Mars, air traffic contollers, interstate highways, nuclear weapons, Veterans' Administration, Center for Disease Control, FEMA, USPS, FBI, CIA, defense contractors, or mercenaries, we're all contributing; it's part of our social contract.


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RE: Preschool

Who said single moms don't have personal responsibility?

Demi, your words are always the same. What follows is also always the same. ...............................

Who said? You said.

When are parents going to BUCK UP and educate their own children, and see to them, before they start kindergarten--which is ALREADY PAID FOR BY TAXPAYERS.

You do not get it so I will not go around and around with you on this. There is no need you have your Personal Responsibility to keep you warm. Stick with it leave me out of that discussion. I was addressing Rob in ref to her post. I was talking about her situation.

Carry on I am not doing the merry go round back peddle argument today. Say what you mean or think before you post. It is frustrating when you go with talking points "Personal Responsibility", taking Rich People's money and then back peddle with the I did not say that argument. I did not mean Rob, I did not mean Joe, I did not mean you.

If you believe in these policies or your lovely talking points stick with them and own them. That is integrity. Policies you support means that you are referring to Rob, or anybody on this board that those policies effect.


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RE: Preschool

demifloyd wrote,

It's never personal responsibility....more people without integrity, character

When will you take personal responsibility for your words and retract and apologize for saying to littleonefb, "you're a liar," when she told the truth? That would exemplify integrity and character. Otherwise, it exemplifies hypocrisy.


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RE: Preschool

"We have all the money in the world for corporate welfare, but one dime spent on our future generation is too much.
Unbelievable."

Yup... it truly is.

Didn't you know that monies paid in taxes are still considered "mine" long after the fact... just because "I" didn't like where those taxes might go? ;-)


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RE: Preschool

What about the fact that the US spends more per student on education than any other country in the world? Does anyone think we have the best education system in the world? Is it possible we fix what is broken before we throw more money at the system? This seems to be our cure for everything. If it's broken, we add new mandates, and toss more money. Would it be better to find out what we are doing wrong and fix it? I know it seems like a daunting task, but these children are the future, and we are failing them. On average, only 69% of students graduate from high school, this is a pathetic number. If more pre schools would fix the problem, I'd be all for it. But we know it's not. Our education system is broken, period.


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RE: Preschool

Our schools are a reflection of our culture. Change our culture and our value system and our schools will follow.

We have one political party that had a candidate in this last election who thought it was snobby for the president to want more technical, vocational and college education for more of our students.
He had quite a following. Your governor Mrs is right.
Your party needs to quit catering to the stupid.


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RE: Preschool

How can we change our culture when the people that need ' changing" are indebted to that very system that keeps them down.
The schools will change when we get rid of the NEA and all the other teacher union protectionists. If you can't teach, and get results then move on to another career.
We have sunk to the near bottom of the ladder when it come to rankings around the world for education.
We were at one time a country of smart, intelligent, driven, children in our schools not anymore.
Take control of the schools out of Washington and let the States go back to being responsible for the education of our kids.
Everything Washington touches is doomed to failure for the most part with few exceptions.


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RE: Preschool

The schools will change when we get rid of the NEA and all the other teacher union protectionists. If you can't teach, and get results then move on to another career.

A organization that started almost 150 years ago and if as you say "We were at one time a country of smart, intelligent, driven, children in our schools" but now "not anymore". What do you think happened?

My child was bright and driven. How many times have you been out and saw kids running around like a untrained dog. As my mother said they need home training.

I have seen parents totally oblivious that their kids are acting like a bull in a china shop. If they do notice and tell them to stop the kids act like they said CONTINUE. My mother and I did not have to say stop. A look was all you needed and that kid knew "I am acting like animal I darn well better stop". That filter goes with a child to school so they can sit in a chair and learn what the teacher is trying to teach.

I have a problem with the blame game. The teacher only have the kids for 7 hours 5 days a week. Why does it become the teachers fault? That equals about a 1 and 1/2 day. That leaves a lot of parent time in between but blame the teachers or a teacher's union? The lowest paid professional with the most education. Should be a miracle worker in that day and half because kids are not little genius anymore?

Even the "Good" parents are raising kids that are unteachable they need parents to send kids to school that teachers can teach. It does not cost a a dime and it does not take two parents. It takes an adult that has the kid the majority of the week to train teachable children.


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RE: Preschool

Posted by mrskjun 9 (My Page) on Sun, Feb 17, 13 at 8:15
What about the fact that the US spends more per student on education than any other country in the world?

that needs to be taken into context:

snip - This paper is an examination of the statistical under-pinnings of the Administration’s claims. It concludes that the assertions about funding are misleading and therefore are invalid guides to education policy. Specifically, our examination of education expenditures in 16 industrialized countries, adjusted for differences in national income, shows:

- U.S. public and private spending on pre-primary, primary and secondary education, the levels of schooling which have been the focus of most concern, is lower than in most other countries. The U.S. ties for twelfth place among 16 industrialized nations, spending less than all but three countries.

- When expenditures for K- 12 are further adjusted to reflect differences in enrollment rates, the U.S. falls to fourteenth place, spending less than all the other countries but two.

- When U.S. pr.Mc spending alone is compared to public spending abroad, we rank fourteenth in spending for all levels of schooling, fourteenth in spending on K-12, and thirteenth in K-12 spending adjusted for enrollments.

- If the U.S. were to increase spending for primary and secondary school up to the average level found in the other 15 countries, we would need to raise spending by over $20 billion annually.

- Because the U.S. spends comparatively more than other countries on higher education, when expenditures on all levels of education -- pre- primary, primary, secondary and post-secondary -- are calculated, we are in a three-way tie for second place among the countries studied. " snip end quote

The paper goes on to point out things on how this was calculated, eg exchange rates, This also doesn't include tidbits that other countries have universal health care and thus medical insurance for teachers and staff isn't calculated in the cost of education where as it is here, the exchange rate, how bundling in higher education into K-12 skews the calculation, etc.

Here is a link that might be useful: link to short .pdf file


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RE: Preschool

I agree with this -snip- from marquest's post:

" parents are raising kids that are unteachable they need parents to send kids to school that teachers can teach. It does not cost a a dime and it does not take two parents. It takes an adult that has the kid the majority of the week to train teachable children."

Amen.


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RE: Preschool

"Fox Business host Stuart Varney is blasting President Barack Obama’s proposal to provide high-quality early education for poor and middle-class children, saying that the plan is just Democrats handing out “goodies” and “free stuff” in an attempt to buy votes.

During a segment titled “Who’s Ruining the Economy?” Varney joined Fox & Friends host Steve Doocy on Friday to talk about Obama’s effort to “establish a continuum of high-quality early learning for a child - " beginning at birth and continuing to age 5.”

“Look what the president is doing here, it’s a repeat performance of his campaign, which is you raise taxes on the rich and you offer all kinds of free stuff to people who will vote for you in the future,” Varney charged. “Free preschool education for 4 year olds, it’s free, here it is. Hand out the goodies.”

“What the president’s really doing here -" because he’s not saying how he’s going to pay for this -" he’s buying votes with future taxpayer money, he’s increasing the scope of the unions because it is the teachers’ union which will staff these preschools and he’s introducing big government, more big government to the states,” the Fox Business host opined.

Varney also lashed out at other elements of the president’s plan.

“He’s also going for an early Head Start program - that’s for 3 year olds and under. He’s also going for an increase in the home visiting program, where nurses and professionals go to the homes of the poor to sign them up for preschool and education, for food stamps, for cell phones!” Varney ranted. “It’s entitlement!”

“It’s an extension of, quite literally, the nanny state,” Doocy agreed. end quote

Well, there you have it.

Here is a link that might be useful: link


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RE: Preschool

I agree with marquest as well. If one has children, the children become the number one priority. If not, don't expect someone else to raise them. I have friends and family in the teaching profession. I do believe we have teachers that are posters here. You are far better people than I am. I could never put up with the garbage that parents throw at you because you aren't raising their children in the way they expect. Never mind that they aren't raising their children who are never wrong, and deserve perfect grades without earning them, and their bad behavior is your fault, at all.


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RE: Preschool

It still gets back to the basic concept and fundamental building block of this country - that all citizens are entitled to /have a right to a quality education.

Because the better educated our society is, the better off all of us are. That leads to a more robust, wealthier better economy, cuts down on crime, violence, and welfare, it leads to informed voting, it makes it a better place to live. On and on.

And it does not matter if that citizen had the misfortune to be born into a minority, inner-city family where the dad isn't there, the mom is a drunk and so on. That isn't his/her fault.


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RE: Preschool

Let's have those comments again because they are a wonderful summary:

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

It still gets back to the basic concept and fundamental building block of this country - that all citizens are entitled to /have a right to a quality education.

Because the better educated our society is, the better off all of us are. That leads to a more robust, wealthier better economy, cuts down on crime, violence, and welfare, it leads to informed voting, it makes it a better place to live. On and on.

And it does not matter if that citizen had the misfortune to be born into a minority, inner-city family where the dad isn't there, the mom is a drunk and so on. That isn't his/her fault.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I had heard a year or so ago that the U.S. did a poor job of funding elementary school education when compared to other industrialized countries. I have never taken the time to research the claim so my thanks to David who has presented the data. The U.S. does well funding education when the college and university level is examined -- according to the source that I heard speaking on the subject.

So if we're falling short on funding the basics -- as in elementary school -- and spending more of education funds on universities, I see another example of redistribution of social spending from the bottom to the upper levels. Che sorpresa, no?


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RE: Preschool

It still gets back to the basic concept and fundamental building block of this country - that all citizens are entitled to /have a right to a quality education.

Exactly!!! Education regardless of your economical status.

It appears that not all feel that is the best thing we can do for our society......The responses and my opinion......

1. If you are economically disadvantaged preschool is not necessary.
(Every kid can benefit from education at all stages of their development regardless of economical status)

2. All Economically disadvantaged kids would not benefit. Because their parents are no good freeloaders
(I do not feel economics makes a kid so dumb they cannot learn)

3. Early education 3-5 is not necessary because you are stifling the child's independence.
(Back to preparing children to be teachable. Parents these days think kids should not be told they are children and there are rules. Society rules that need to be followed. There is a time to play and a time to work. The world does not revolve around littly Johonny's independence. We are a structured society they need to learn that early so they are teachable. )


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RE: Preschool

We spend an average $10,995 in public dollars on each US elementary and secondary student, but other countries spend less to get better reading, math and science test scores. Japan spends $8,301 per student and South Korea spends less, at $6,723, but both outpace US academic performance. The US outlay per student is $2,826 more than the average in industrialized countries. Then again, the biggest spenders per student ��" Luxembourg, Norway, and Switzerland ��" have mixed results compared to the US.

Here is a link that might be useful: link


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RE: Preschool

marquest @7:11 2/14: " I lived in a mostly stay at home parent neighborhood. We all had our kids in preschool. When we dropped them off we were headed to the gym, shopped, and joined art classes. Those were fun days."

marquest @:10:37 2/15 "I raised my daughter alone on one income. I think these days the one income problem is "THINGS"

And you mentioned, marquest, that even when married, you were a one-income family. I'm assuming you were the SAH parent, as that was the norm back then. So you have some pretty good insight on the one parent v. 2 parent (at home) scenario. Good to know; I will respect that.


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RE: Preschool

I have been both a working mom and SAHM to my 3 children. 2 of them went to a church preschool 2-3 days a week, my oldest went to a home-day care that did preschool activities. My children are my priority and I have invested all the time I can into guiding and educating them to the best of my ability, along with my husband. However, I have a different perspective because I was a preschool director of a private preschool in a church for 2 years, and currently work in a preschool in the public school setting. There are good parents that place their kids in preschool and supplement with learning, care, and guidance at home, and there are bad or possibly distracted/stressed parents who are unwilling or unable to do much more that get their kids on a bus to preschool. Unfortunately with the rise in free, public preschool where a ride to and from school is provided as well as free breakfast, parents aren't asked to do a whole lot to educate their kids, or so it seems. These public preschools are closing down the private preschools because even the parents that can afford private preschool see a bargain with free preschool with free transportation, a deal too good to pass up. What I see are overcrowded preschools with stressed teachers and a lack of resources, time, and cleanliness. I would never put my own children in the preschool that I currently work in.
I see nothing wrong with parents seeking out the best education and daycare that they can find for their child if they are working or their child needs the socialization and preparation for kindergarten. However, I also see nothing wrong with SAHM keeping their kids at home and providing a rich and stimulating environment for them in their own loving homes, while taking advantage of opportunities in their own communities for play groups, library story hours, ect. My only wish is that parents thoroughly explore their options and be willing to make lifestyle changes, or pay for a private school to best prepare their child, not just take whats free because it is offered and no cost to them. Sometimes you get what you pay for.


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RE: Preschool

Retired elementary & preschool teacher here.

Long-range studies that I'm aware of started in the '70s and show that the price of having preschool saves way more money down the line, as the president stated.

In California, inner-city public elementary schools can qualify for a half-day SRLDP preschool program for students who will be old enough for kindergarden the following school year (mostly 4-year-olds).

The teachers have BAs plus an extra year of post-grad classes in education to obtain their teaching certificate. They have two groups of students per day (36 total) and a full-time aide.

There are also state-funded preschools, where the teachers have an AA degree in child development.

Private preschool here is very expensive.


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