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| So I spent over 24 hrs in hospital over the weekend. I badly lacerated my leg, and so experienced the whole thing from emergency room admission to general anesthesia and surgery to recovery room and a semi-complication. All fascinating and a whopping change of perspective. Although I almost passed out in the waiting room after lying on the floor for a while I was able to observe other people waiting. One fellow - in the long term in way worse condition than me - was very friendly and concerned. Someone else gave me a blanket. Overall I felt really bad for most of them who were suffering the permanent and horrible effects of the diet that we have discussed here many times. I was admitted on a prioritized basis, I suspect, based on blood-loss, and without even showing id or proof of insurance. I had forgotten my insurance card from MA (hospital in FL). I won't think about what it's going to cost now. Anyway I don't have a cash value for my leg. We can say whatever we want about the American health system, but I'll say this: I was very glad they were there. They knew what they were doing, even though yes the process was very slow and deliberate it got done. Will it turn out absolutely shockingly expensive? No doubt. But what does it cost to have all this on demand? If I had to live the life of the surgeon who worked on me I wouldn't touch it for less than a million a year. It's nuts what these people do. Looking around the hospital, noting the infrastructure, the machinery, the number of workers needed at various levels of training and skill, the mind boggles at the cost. Given what I saw going on, seems like it is all needed. Overall I was pretty impressed, and I'm not at all surprised now at the amount of the domestic economy health care consumes. My previous conviction that our main problem is diet is certainly re-enforced. The cost of health care won't be reduced until that changes. |
Follow-Up Postings:
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| PNB I am sorry that you were injured and very glad that healthcare was available for you .... how in the world did you injure yourself? Hope you have a speedy recovery. |
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| I am wishing you a fast and non eventful recovery, pnbrown. What is it that you saw or learned at the hospital that made you make the comments about our diets? Yes, I know of doctors whose patients are primarily medicare patients that are getting reimbursed literally peanuts for certain procedures--barely or not enough to cover costs to perform the procedure, visit patients in the hospitals and in the office. These doctors have other professions and income in the works and realize that soon, private practices will be a thing of the past and doctors will only be able to work for hospitals, all controlled by the government. The days of calling up "your" doctor will be numbered, and we will be stuck with whoever is on call at the hospital. There will be no incentive to make a practice grow, or a particular reputation of a group of doctors--so I predict the involvement with patients will diminish as well. Welcome to Obamacare on the horizon. I'm glad you got the care you needed, in any event. |
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| Took the corner of a metal-roofing panel into the front of my lower leg, fortunately in the muscle not the bone. Also that there was enough muscle to protect the bone. All the aids in the emergency room were fascinated, apparently it's not every day you can look at exposed muscle moving. My protocols for handling metal roofing are going to undergo a massive change. My comments about the effects of diet were based on assessing the people waiting. Those who seemed the most distressed or dire were overweight and with little muscle tone and had that telltale look of a lifetime of fast food. So purely estimated from appearances. I don't think it's incorrect as a generality, nevertheless. |
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| Oh wow, pn, I'm just glad you got treated and are recovering! You take care. Kate |
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| My hospitalization experience in November (12 days for surgery resulting from a dying colon due to a femoral hernia) was also good. BUT, the first time I went to the ER in horrible pain, the ER doctor didn't take a white blood count nor did he palpate the area right below where I was feeling pain (where the femoral hernia was) and, since I didn't have pain in my appendix and my pain level had decreased, he sent me home. After vomiting a couple of times, and feeling where the pain was I discovered a hard mass (the hernia). Went to the hospital's other hospital ER a couple of days later (wanted to see my doctor first and he was booked until the next day but sent me for a CT scan, which had to be ordered by the ER as my insurance required 24 hours notice before approval of a doctor-ordered CT scan) and they did a CT scan and sent me for emergency surgery. By then, three inches of my colon had to be removed and I am still not recovered from that. If the first ER doctor had done a WBC and palpated another inch below where he did, the surgery probably wouldn't have required removal of some of my colon and I would have had a much shorter hospital stay and a fast recovery. I complained to the hospital about this first ER "exam" and neither the insurance company nor I were ever billed for it. The ER doctor,however, billed and was paid but I had no co-pay. I was impressed with my care once I got the appropriate care, i.e., was correctly diagnosed. The bill for that 12 days? $86,000. Insurance paid over $16,000 and I had a $1500 co-pay, bringing the total to about $18,000. Had I not been insured, the total cost to me would have been about $90,000 (adding in another $4,000 for the surgeon). Draw your own conclusions about health care in this country. Mine are mostly good, if one has insurance, and bad in other ways. |
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| pnb, my daughter was recently hospitalized for three days because of a cat bite and she needed antibiotic infusions every six hours to defeat the infection. She went in through the ER, has decent insurance, did not call her own doctor until after the fact and then only for a checkup and to record the event in her medical file. She will have to pay a fraction of the cost of the care she received, but your experience of watching a large hospital infrastructure made visible from the inside was duplicated. She saw infectious disease docs and a surgeon among many others. I've been in hospital for serious illnesses and I am always knocked out by the extent of care that is available. And I am very grateful for it. The nonsense that one cannot see one's doctor when the Affordable Care Act is fully implemented is a canard that will not die. |
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| Interesting to watch guys who know what they're doing around metal roofing panels. A healthy respect indeed. Just a word of caution when the bills start coming - there may well be dozens of them, and they come with mistakes. You'll likely spend many a happy week with getting all that sorted out. get well soon - |
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- Posted by ronalawn82 z9FL (ronalawn08@gmail.com) on Mon, Feb 18, 13 at 14:58
| pnbrown, I I am sorry to hear that you have hurt yourself but I must ask the rhetoric question, "If you do that to your own leg, what would you not do to mine?" I too had an interesting but much less gory experience. Sometime around September last year a specialist set me up for an endoscopy "early next year" In the intervening period, three preliminary procedures had to be done. He referred me to the front office. At the front office there was some indecision about what procedure could be done by "this office" and what could be done by "your primary care". One procedure was completed within a week at the primary care office. A month later the specialist's office wanted to schedule the endoscopy but I had to let them know hat the other procedures were not yet completed. At the primary care office I inquired about the other two procedures. One was done on the spot! I was given an "order" to get the other done at a nearby clinic. At the clinic I was told "We do not do 'barium swallowing tests here". I called the primary care office and much of my side of the conversation would be 'bleeped out', so maddened was I. I inquired many days later ... to be told, "You need to go to a Hospital for your swallowing test. A clinic will not do it. That sounded like we were both learning that fact right then. I have since learnt that the test is free if done at a clinic but $100.00 (co-pay) if done at a hospital. I must remember to raise that issue with the insurance provider. I went to the hospital and guess what? They needed an order - Of course! She kindly made the phone calls and received the fax - some twenty minutes later. The swallowing test was completed; and on Valentine's Day I was all prepped for 'surgery' when it was discovered that the results of the swallowing test were not among the documents present. I must remember to thank the supporting staff of the two doctors' offices for providing me with some experience to learn from. I would not want to be a doctor - only because of indifferent service provided by some of the support personnel. That aside, you get yourself well ...and soon! |
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| Pnb...So glad you're recovering from what sounds like a horrific cut. I had nothing like you ,but for the past two weeks I've had a deep gash on my lower leg which left a gaping wound. I self medicated. It wasn't infected, a little red ,but I applied Neosporin diligently and now it appears to have begun to heal. Pidge, my daughter was a little luckier than yours but not by much. She also got a nasty cat bite to her hand from grabbing her cat when he ran outside. He freaked out. She went to Urgent care and was put on two antibiotics but was told to go to the hospital the next day if didn't start to get better which it did. I have never been a hospital patient since I gave birth to my last child in the 60's. However when my husband fell off two roofs two years ago leaf blowing, and broke his back and punctured his lung, I was totally impressed with his care. His bill was in the 60,000 range as he was hospitalized for three days and all he paid was $15 for the phone in his room. Dockside...I'd be plenty angry with the first care you received which caused you further problems. |
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| Dockside, I am sorry to hear about your awful experience, especially because it is so different from anything I have gone through.. BTW, rona, what was the surgery that you required. I had a fistula (hole) in my esophagus and evdery test made me think I was gagging to death. Dreadful difficult surgery to fix the problem, but again excellent care in a first-rate hospital. |
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| Pat, sorry you had such a severe injury to your leg. Yikes! Glad it went well. Have a speedy recovery. Sorry about your horrible experience Dockside. |
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| Yikes pn, sounds like one very nasty slash! Glad you are on the mend and that the hospital experience was good. Dockside, if the bill was 86K and insurance only covered 18K do you have to pay the rest????? I think I must be missing something. You are way to calm if you are facing a 70K hospital bill !!!! |
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| Emergency health care is normally fairly decent... it's when one has an ongoing illness or issue that it's often not financially possible to obtain the best care, or the care that will give you a fighting chance. Hope you get well soon. |
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| My heart goes out to all that have been dealing with the system and pain that makes it necessary. Blood and gore, pain and suffering and dented pocketbooks are a part of our society and to those that have avoided most of it kudos and take care of yourselves. We have our bodies and they are not yet made of Kevlar so avoid sharp things if possible. When they wear out I hope here is a better place for our consciousness, or if we end up fertilizing our favorite tree well enough. A year and a half ago Missy was getting out of bed and the cat had crawled under the covers. She frightened the cat and she clawed the back of her hand. Missy's veins and arteries are very near the surface and the blood was shooting across the room. Her hand, with pressure on it had swollen to twice it's normal size by the time we got to Emergicare just down the street. She was on medicare at the time so we had a $100 co pay but I do not know what the full bill would have been. They used silver nitrate to cauterize the wound after trying a couple of different pressure bandages. She just last week got signed up on Kaiser so now we are making trips to three different clinics for various problems. the first and most important is cataract surgery that she will be getting on the worst eye in April unless there is a cancellation sooner. They have a nice computer site where you can go to get all lab reports and they are explained plus emails to your doctors and making appointments. I have been in the VA hospital 6 times in the last two years and average twice a week for appointments for various things. On twelve medicines now for heart, thyroid, arthritis and the newest one diabetes. The gall bladder was the most painful. If I saw the bills for all this stuff I would likely just curl up and sit in the corner with my stuffed animal making unintelligible sounds. The VA has the same computer set up as Kaiser and in fact was modeled after theirs I keep track of all appointments and health history right on my computer for both of us. Ain't technology grand? |
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| I also have been "hanging out" in hospitals a lot lately. I have received the best care while hospitalized. I was impressed by the emergency health care, and by the care while hospitalized. The only real problems that I have had is that I have to call my insurance company constantly to make sure that they cover everything. They were questioning why I would need 3 separate MRIs. They looked for reasons to deny procedures that were clearly necessary. So, in my experience, hospitals are good. Insurance companies, not so much. |
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| I simply could not imagine adding money/insurance issues to the trauma of an illness or accident. |
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| I'll update on the cost when it comes, as an item of curiosity. My uncle thinks it will be 30-40k, my guess is 15 or so. Thanks for the sentiments. I was exceedingly lucky. There will be nerve damage for sure but possibly no mobility compromise. Back to the theme of health care cost, and health. Perhaps it is not surprising nor even outrageous for health care to consume so much GNP if, let's say, 20% of the population is chronically ill to some degree. |
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| OUCH! PN, that hurt just reading about it, may you heal quickly and properly without delay. A 24 hour hospital stay should be within reason, should be I say. The Best to You |
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| We can start a pool, Pat. I'm guessing $8,000 for the surgery, then $2,000 because you walked in the door. So mark me down for $10,000. I assume you walked out and didn't have to stay the night. If so, then tack on $4,000 a day. |
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| PN sorry about your accident. That sounds like a lot of pain. I am like Lily I have not personally been in the hospital since the 70s. My experience has been with my Mother and friend. I can say they both have gotten excellent care. |
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| Glad your doing better. Yes keep an eye on the bills anyone who even said hello may attempt to bill you! |
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- Posted by duluthinbloomz4 zone 4a (My Page) on Mon, Feb 18, 13 at 19:03
| I'd guess more than than 10k; besides the surgeon, you're overlooking the anesthetist which is always a separate charge, operating room expenses, plus everything on the surgical tray they touched you with from implements to suture thread to gauze to bandages... I'll go closer to 15k, but it's a guess since I've had no experience with emergency rooms. Hope all goes well with your recovery. |
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| Joe, that's closer to the truth than it should be! Doctors do occasionally pad the bill with charges that amount to nothing. And insurance companies are too often very difficult to deal with... been there, done that too many times! It's not so much the emergency care that's an issue... it's ongoing care, and insurance issues. |
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| Best wishes for speedy recovery that doesn't bankrupt you! |
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| I simply could not imagine adding money/insurance issues to the trauma of an illness or accident. ......those who think they are immune from the above (which sometimes also results in death) are extremely blessed. It has caused more than a few Americans their entire life savings and homes. Salaried physicians have been around since the 90's, way before there was an ACA. Cleveland Clinic doctors are all "salaried physicians", not private practice. In fact many of the younger doctors prefer salary, because according to them it gives them more time with their families. Soon we may have "robot care" and can replace the "human care". PNB if you were there 24 hours I am betting the cost will be far beyond 10K. |
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| Hope you have a speedy recover PNB! I had a bad year back in 2007 when I undertook 4 visits to the Emergency room - 2 for myself, 1 for my son, and 1 for the cat! One of my trips was for a cat bite, I remember it clearly because of course it was a Sunday, and 2 days before Xmas 2007. My cat had bit me my forearm the day before, but I thought it was a scratch. However it was somewhat alarming to see it swelling and turning red by Sunday morning. So I called the on-call doctor, and she refused to prescribe me antibiotics for a cat scratch - had to be seen. Waited at least 3 hours in the ER, but finally saw the doctor and he drew 4 circles on my arm around the very distinct puncture wounds of her 4 canine teeth. That was surprising, although I am aware that cat saliva is extremely infectious - it could be on par with a Komodo dragon's! It was resolved with simple oral antibiotics. Oddly, both the admission lady and the doctor asked me the same question with wide eyes - "What did you do to your cat??" I didn't do anything! She was a most temperamental cat and I had only reached down under the table to scritch her back and she attacked me with claws and teeth! The other visits were much more serious, but don't want to go into detail. I was just thankful that no other year since has involved that many emergency personnel!
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| I'm guessing your bill will be closer to 25K than 10k. You will probably need to have some kind of physical therapy too, so that will be extra. Try an acupuncturist to help with your nerve damage. |
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| Physical therapy amounted to the guy showing me how to use crutches (which I didn't really know, I was surprised to find). I have a very cool padded boot which is making all the difference as far as protecting the wound from bad movements, bumps, etc. I betcha that will be a grand at least. I'll keep it for sprained ankles and such. Yes, I spent the night, plus a GI specialist consulted with me because they were worried I might be bleeding into the stomach from intubation. I declined to be sedated and scoped because I really didn't think I was dying (turns out you don't have to do whatever they say). I'm upping my guess to 20k, and that my insurance at first will deny half of it. |
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| Pay attention to what Joe said, read every single item they try to bill you for and watch for double billing. You can also negotiate your total hospital bill but read up on how to go about dong that - I read an article about three years ago about the whole thing, don't remember a lot but you can save a big percentage if you have no insurance or very little and you know how to go about negotiating the bill with the hospital. Watch for billings where doctors supposedly visited you in your room when you know they did not. If you were at a Catholic services hospital and some sweet nun came in to ask how you doing and offered to say a prayer for you and you let her for whatever reason, watch for that unreasonable and sneaky bill, my sweet nun's quarter of a minute prayer with the pat on the hand with the total visit all of two full minutes was billed $250 to my insurance company for which the hospital billing office and the Catholic services and I had some chats over: that prayer will be billed as "spiritual services" or some such thing. Read every word on your bill and ask lots and lots of questions about what you might not understand or don't remember or why you might be billed twice for the same item. The bills will slowly come in. Fight every single charge you believe is a false charge for any reason and remember to research on how to negotiate your total hospital charge. Very glad you are OK, very glad you are happy with the services rendered, we have been pleased with our hospital medical care here also. I hope you will be free from pain and be up and about your normal activities quickly! |
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- Posted by nancy_in_venice_ca SS24 z10 CA (My Page) on Tue, Feb 19, 13 at 1:16
| pnb, best wishes for a speedy recovery and optimal insurance coverage. Having spent a fair share of time in emergency rooms in the last several years (not as the patient, thank God) I saw efficient health care. When it is determined that whatever it was that sent the person to ER is not life threatening (as it has been when I witnessed the treatments) you can count on four to five hours before being finally released, and then the schlep to the 24-hour pharmacy. (It's not unusual for me to have to flag down a nurse to refill the IV bag, etc.) If it's a particularly busy day (or night) you be discharged sooner to free up an ER bed. If being admitted to the hospital (non-surgery), wait time depends on room availability. I count on 6-8 (stressful) hours for an ER visit. |
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| chase - I have Medicare Advantage insurance. The rates for each procedure, room, etc., are determined by Medicare and the doctor and hospital have to accept what Medicare pays. So, the insurer discounted the $86,000 to what Medicare says and the hospital and surgeon eat the rest. My co-pay is included in the amount that Medicare approves. I called the hospital today, after receiving a very perfunctory bill for $1,500 (one line) to ask for an itemized bill and to work out a payment plan. Although my $1,500 co-pay will not change, I want to know what the $86,000 entailed. And, I agree. Adding stress about paying the bill does not help in one's recovery. |
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| Anyone who reads this thread and doesn't have a cat will wonder why people do. I think there were four instances of cat bites requiring medical attention, and the deep gash on my leg was caused by me sticking my leg out to keep 25 pound Henry from attacking a cat he doesn't like. He got me instead. Want a trip down memory lane? When my son was born I was in the hospital for a week(??), and it wasn't a Cesarean birth. My bill was $125 and $25 for the baby. |
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| Good luck to all and good health to all... |
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- Posted by brushworks Zone5-Ohio (My Page) on Tue, Feb 19, 13 at 7:01
| PN, Was this an occupational accident? No Worker's Comp? |
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| Brush, I was working on a building owned by family, not being paid. I don't carry comp on myself in any case. Yes, I will read up on best strategies for negotiation in this context. In my experience, everything and anything is negotiable. |
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| You can still submit the claim to insurance. Yes, there will be many hoops, extra ones, but you don't have to foot the entire bill by yourself. Yes, it's all very necessary. Highly specialized people with highly speicalized equipment. But they're a good lot of people. Godspeed for your healing leg! |
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| Felines do seem to be carriers of several things not expected from dogs, which is unfortunate for those who have cats as pets. They also have rather sharp weapons, and aren't too discretionary when it comes to sinking them into available flesh! I've never been bitten by a dog, nor scratched to the point of bleeding badly. Dogs are more controllable and less apt to scratch or bite due to discretion, and also manners instilled through training, especially when it comes to members of their family... unless the situation calls for it, in my experience. I may be biased, though... I like cats, but I'm highly allergic! We don't often think of our pets as being dangerous to us, but they can be. While you consider everything negotiable, PNBrown, don't forget that the opposing side may not feel that way, and may not be open to a fair discussion. We ran into this very issue with an insurance company. It was extremely frustrating, especially because we don't have the funds to drag a company into court when they don't act in a fair and expected manner.
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| "My bill was $125 and $25 for the baby." Lilly, I'm guessing you've had a nice return on that investment. Pat, get well. Legs are useful things. |
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| $14.75 disposable razor not a surgical instrument a little blue generic disposable razor on one of EDDS Bills. I also noticed a numerous occasions the tabs on pills wouldn't open correctly & the nurse would simply get another one, the same with tubing a cap would come off because it was poorly made all of those items added to the bill. |
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| One of my friends in Africa was a surgeon in a small town hospital. I'd always thought that the worst cuts came from Machetes. Told me that nope, they came from the ubiquitous zinc-coated metal roofing sheets. Even when they're lying on the ground, the guys take a wide path around them. |
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- Posted by woodnymph2 (My Page) on Tue, Feb 19, 13 at 13:09
| Sorry to hear of your accident. Want to second what Mylab wrote about examining each item on your bills carefully and try to work out some sort of negotiation of payment in increments with their business office. Years ago, I was able to do this and it helped my financial situation. Question everything --- billers do make errors. Another victim here of my cat's having scratched me when I was trying to break up a fight with another cat. Still have the scars on my leg. |
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| I think it is worth noting that while having all that expertise on hand at hospitals is indeed expensive as PN notes-other countries manage to have the same marvelous resources on hand for a fraction of what we pay and the people in those countries do not spend the rest of their natural lives figuring out their hospital and doctor bills while they try to recover. That everyones experience with the bills is that you have to go over them with a fine toothed comb, that while you are in the system you have to know to say no to the $40 apirin tablet and so forth has to be an indictment of our system of care and yet we are so used to this that we do not cry THIEF and LIAR to the system that tries to bilk us but are pathetically thankful for the good care we got. Good luck to you pn for a good recovery and Mercy Dockside-you are lucky to be alive, that the ER doctor didnt do a complete abdominal exam is past belief |
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| The thing is when my husband fell off the roof and was hospitalized for three days two years ago, we got nothing from Geisinger, our provider, and just a $15 bill for the phone from the hospital. I forget how my husband found out the bill was over $60,000, but he couldn't dispute anything because we saw nothing. There's a rightwing doctor who has a radio show here so husband knows what he looks like. He stuck his head in the door and asked how he felt and left. I'm sure that was on the final bill. Re: cats. (and animals in general). Aside from vicious dog bites, cat bites and scratches are very dangerous because of the bacteria in their mouths and claws. I've been very lucky,because in over 40 years I've had 15 cats and four dogs and have never been bitten by any and never deliberately scratched by any. One fell on my head one time. Don't laugh. He was sleeping on the top of the wingchair and rolled over and landed on my head. I wasn't hurt. This scratch, a few weeks ago, was the only time I had a bad injury and it is healing Kwoods..Yes, I DID get a nice return on my $150 investment from my first kid. I think I'll keep him around...lol |
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| "I think I'll keep him around." We've little choice. When I tried to return mine for a refund and the hospital behaved as if they'd never seen him before. I've had one cat. That's all I'll ever require. She lived 22 years and I'm still so distraught 20 years after she died I'll never have another. Seems I've probably saved myself countless trips to the emergency room. " and yet we are so used to this that we do not cry THIEF and LIAR to the system that tries to bilk us but are pathetically thankful for the good care we got." The American public is being held hostage by our broken health"care" system, keeps costs down dontcha know. We should all seek treatment for Stockholm Syndrome.... though, I'm afraid to since my insurance doesn't cover it. |
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| I'm sorry to hear of these injuries and hope you are all soon on the mend. Patriciae, that was very well said. We are so USED to the system we've ended up with that few have the guts or time to tackle it head-on. I'm very surprised to read of only one poster with Kaiser; we've had it for 30 years now and have received excellent care; I particularly enjoy the electronic aspect and the fact that every doctor/care provider I see has immediate access to my file. Also, we rarely wait more than a day or two to get test results. I had a mamogram late one morning and got the results via email that afternoon. (That might be a little unusual.) There are no bills, only co-pays. My head spins to see what most of you have to go through with your insurance companies! |
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| Sounds like a nasty gash PNBrown. Wishing you a quick recovery. And the same to everyone else having medical issues. My husband had a gastroscopy last Tuesday (out patient procedure) and next Monday he is scheduled for rotator cuff surgery . Thankfully our cost will be ZERO. Thanks to our Canadian health care. ~Ann |
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| So what I've been thinking about lately is: it seems like care for serious accidents or illness is so costly that the only way an average person can access it is by paying for insurance. Yet the insurance provider must make a big profit. Even if one has the costly insurance, 4-500 per month for an individual, the math doesn't really work out. Everyone has an event like mine sooner or later, of some sort, and then there all the people who get a serious non-fatal illness, and then the many people who have chronic poor health, and then everyone dies eventually which in most cases involves costly visits to the hospital. The cost of the care plus the insurance profit isn't coming just out of insurance premiums. Which means probably a lot of it is being covered in various ways by government as things are now. |
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| pnbrown wrote, So what I've been thinking about lately is: Which means probably a lot of it is being covered in various ways by government as things are now. If you think "the math doesn't really work out," please provide the math, so we can examine it. A vague feeling is no substitute for actual data and computations. |
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- Posted by hamiltongardener CAN 6a (My Page) on Tue, Feb 19, 13 at 18:40
| I guess your injury might have been the reason you stopped the conversation with TMG1 re: organic foods. I thought maybe you just got tired of trying to explain it. |
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| "Thankfully our cost will be ZERO. Thanks to our Canadian health care. ~Ann" So how does that work, Ann? A percentage of your income (earned only?) is continuously taken from your income source & put into a (interest-bearing?) fund for anyone (or just the contributors?) to draw from by way of receiving free health care? All health care, i.e., medical, dental, prescriptions, eyeglasses/contacts, medical supplies? |
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| Why is the insurance provider due a big profit? Perhaps that sort of thinkning is part of the problem. What do they provide that deserved huge payouts? |
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- Posted by youngquinn VIC Aust (My Page) on Tue, Feb 19, 13 at 19:04
| "So how does that work, Ann? A percentage of your income (earned only?) is continuously taken from your income source & put into a (interest-bearing?) fund for anyone (or just the contributors?) to draw from by way of receiving free health care? All health care, i.e., medical, dental, prescriptions, eyeglasses/contacts, medical supplies? " from Elvis In Australia we pay 1.5% which is not bad. If you earn $100000 it amounts to $1500 per year. Im happy with that. In the year before she entered a nursing home my mother had 9 trips to hospital sometimes staying for 3 or more weeks. she is required to use warfarin now....she is tested once a fortnight....they come to her and once again total cost is zero. BTW PB SORRY ABOUT YOUR INJURY...AND HOPE IT RECOVERS COMPLETELY WITH NO PERMANENT NERVE DAMAGE. |
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| I'm so glad to know you are all right. Health care has certainly changed, and for the better, for the most part. But it is expensive, and so not readily available to people who don't have insurance. Even a brief visit to the Emergency Room will bring huge bills, which most uninsured people can't pay. Hospitals are VERY aggressive in trying to get their money, and people who can't pay their bills are frequently too ashamed to go back to the hospital, even if they need it. I've had a couple of patients die, of a treatable, even curable illness, in the past few years because they were too embarrassed by their unpaid bills to go back to the hospital, and couldn't afford their medications. |
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| How it works in Ontario is via an employer assessed payroll tax and a modest addition to personal income tax. Employers are happy to pay the payroll tax as it is much lower than paying private insurance for all their employees. The income tax premium we pay personally is quite reasonable. See attached reference. It covers all medical, no co pays, no exceptions, no preexisting, no pre approvals...... but not prescriptions , dental or glasses. Interestingly it cost me more for 1 months insurance coverage while here in the States than my entire years tax premium at home. In the last ten years, in addition to all regular doctors appointments, pap smears, mamos, colonoscopy, bone density and the like , I have had comprehensive medical treatment for a heart attack and breast cancer. Other than my tax premium it has cost me nothing and the care has been excellent and never questioned by anyone. All between me and my doctor no one else...can't imagine having an insurance company in the middle. Must be hell. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Ontario Health Care premium
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- Posted by hamiltongardener CAN 6a (My Page) on Tue, Feb 19, 13 at 19:19
| Elvis, Think of it like roads. It's not that there is a special fund (interest bearing or not) drawn off our income and set aside to contribute to roads, only to be used by contributers and only that specific amount. Is that a good analogy? Like roads, anyone can use them (well, a little difference there. Healthcare must be a Canadian citizen or legal resident). There is not a direct amount drawn from our taxes and once that runs out, it ends... our taxes DO fund our healthcare, but there is not a tipping point of funds used. Maybe a better comparison would be to your military? They don't just stop in the middle of a war because the $500 a year taken from everyone's paycheque has run out. "That's it guys, we have to wait for next year's budget." ;) And as for what is covered, it depends province to province. While federal law mandates there must be health care coverage, it is up to the individual provinces to implement it. In my province, all doctor and hospital care is covered. Prescriptions are NOT covered unless administered in a hospital. Instead, the Canadian gov't buys prescription medication to supply pharmacies, etc in Canada for a very low bulk cost... so our cost is low (but your benefits through work still cover prescription costs. Cosmetic surgeries are not covered except under certain circumstances that would make the doctor deem them necessary. For example, breast enhancements or reductions are not covered. However, if large breasts are problematic for your back, it is fully covered. My sister had a breast reduction covered under those circumstances. Eyecare is NOT covered in Ontario for adults. Children are covered though. I might be wrong, but the last time I checked I think eyecare was covered for adults in most other provinces though. You would need private coverage (most likely through work benefits) in Ontario. And you can claim that on your taxes. Hubby is having laser eye surgery early next month so he can get rid of his glasses. It is not considered a necessary surgery, so it is not covered. Cataract surgery IS covered, however. |
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- Posted by youngquinn VIC Aust (My Page) on Tue, Feb 19, 13 at 19:29
| In Australia we also have a scheme for prescription meds. It is capped at around $30 per script. If a doctor prescribes it , you are entitled to it. |
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| Good thing I refreshed before posting. Hamilton has pretty much covered it all. No Canadian ever has to worry about going to a doctor or to a hospital and coming home owing $$$$$$$$. I live in BC, and we pay a premium of $120 per month. This is the maximum for a couple.
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Here is a link that might be useful: Health Care Canada
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| Momj, the most obscene example of aggressive bill collection was going on here until last year. A major medical complex, Fairview, had outsourced collection to a private company. This company Accretive, was sending bill collectors into emergency rooms, and demanding payment, leading people to believe they wouldn't receive care if they didn't make a payment, whether they had insurance or not. They were hitting up vulnerable people in all wards. Two Fairview executives had sons working for Accretive. Our Attorney General kicked Accretive out of the state. |
Here is a link that might be useful: startribune
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- Posted by hamiltongardener CAN 6a (My Page) on Tue, Feb 19, 13 at 19:35
| In Australia we also have a scheme for prescription meds. It is capped at around $30 per script. If a doctor prescribes it , you are entitled to it. I understand that they have a similar scheme in the UK, and the cost is even less. There are a lot of ways that the Canadian system could be improved and I think some of the European countries have some great ideas we could pull from. That said, I rarely have a prescription that costs me $30. Mind you, we don't often have an illness that requires a prescription except for an occasional need for antibiotics. It's not like cancer meds or something like that. Although cancer treatments would be provided at the hospital, so they would be covered by healthcare. I'm tired. Trying to think of some really expensive meds and getting nowhere. |
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| To add to what HG said, routine vision care and things like laser surgery are not covered but eye disease and eye injuries are covered |
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- Posted by hamiltongardener CAN 6a (My Page) on Tue, Feb 19, 13 at 19:48
| was sending bill collectors into emergency rooms, and demanding payment We don't get bill collectors in our hospital rooms, but we do get various priests and pastors coming in to see if we need spiritual help. No, just let me sleep! I don't mind the priests, really, I'm just afraid one of these times it'll be a Jehovah's Witness knocking on hospital doors. RUN!!! I certainly appreciate the pastor/priest's concern for me... really, they are good guys... but sometimes I think the bill collectors would be better visitors. At least I could throw things at the bill collectors and not feel bad. |
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| was sending bill collectors into emergency rooms, and demanding payment How sad is that. |
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- Posted by youngquinn VIC Aust (My Page) on Tue, Feb 19, 13 at 20:19
| hamilton , pensioner , health care holders students etc pay $5 at most...and all Australians hav ea cap...after you reach this you pay only $5 per prescription. I should have said a maximum of $30, as many are less . |
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- Posted by hamiltongardener CAN 6a (My Page) on Tue, Feb 19, 13 at 20:39
| hamilton , pensioner , health care holders students etc pay $5 at most...and all Australians hav ea cap...after you reach this you pay only $5 per prescription. I should have said a maximum of $30, as many are less . Yeah, we still have some improvements to be made. It's still a work in progress. |
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| "How sad is that." The most chilling story in the series was that of a woman who was being harassed by a collector when she was in emergency having a miscarriage. It's hard to find a better reason for Universal Single Payer medical care. Hamilton, Mylab said earlier in the thread that her 2 minutes with a nun cost $250. They probably don't charge patients for being harassed by a priest or nun in Canada. |
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| I had one of those 'Dr sticking their head in the door 3 minutes that will be $450 please' bills which the insurance refused to pay. She sent the bill to a collection agency, so paralyzed in the rehab wing, DW freaked and ended up paying, with interest. I spent a full 5 years recounting that story to anybody who would listen, and I hope I cost her far more than that in ill will around the community. |
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- Posted by youngquinn VIC Aust (My Page) on Tue, Feb 19, 13 at 21:19
| David that is medical bullying at its worst. Doctors like that give the good ones a bad name. |
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| Lily, We were living in the US (1981) when my son was born. I was in the hospital for a week, and like you , it wasn't a Cesarean birth. I had a private room and our final bill was $200.00. ~Ann |
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- Posted by hamiltongardener CAN 6a (My Page) on Tue, Feb 19, 13 at 21:30
| Hamilton, Mylab said earlier in the thread that her 2 minutes with a nun cost $250. Wait, what? I completely missed that. I had no idea... that's insane! You're correct, you don't get charged for seeing a priest in Canada... I'm a bit flabbergasted. NEVER heard of that before. I'm not sure even what to think of that. Priests/nuns don't consider visiting and comforting the sick part of their charity works in the US? I guess priests and pastors do have "other" jobs, I expect they can make a salary working as a school administrator or at a hospital as a chaplain. But I would expect that they would receive a salary in that capacity... not have their time charged out to patients. I've never heard of such a thing. I'm quite surprised to hear it happens there. |
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| Thanks to all you Canadians for the info. ;) |
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| Ah, Pat...what a terrible accident. Hope there's no permanent damage and you're back in the gardens soon. I (and the rest of the world) have read about the dysfunctional US medical system, but those charges are extortionate! From Medical News Today: "America's health care system is inefficient, suffers from data overload, is complex and very costly, a report from the Institute of Medicine (IoM) revealed today. The authors added that too many negative factors are undermining health care quality and affecting the USA's global competitiveness and economic stability. Despite all this, there are knowhow and tools in place to correct the deep faults within the country's health system so that costs may be reduced and the quality of care improved." I have a novel idea...Why doesn't your country introduce a new procedure, like a single-payer, mostly publicly-funded system? They could give it a catchy name, like, say, "Obamacare", and the people and the country would be much better for it. In Oz, your same accident treatment would have been free in practically any of our world's best standard hospitals... Get better soon! Regards from Shax. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Medical News Today Report
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- Posted by ronalawn82 z9FL (ronalawn08@gmail.com) on Wed, Feb 20, 13 at 7:02
| pnbrown, in answer to the question from pidge, I have been diagnosed with Gastroesophageal reflux disease (GERD). Looks like I will be on a drug indefinitely. |
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| Rona, did you have to have surgery for GERD? My husband has that and has been taking meds for it for about eight or nine years. Every few years he has to have a Gastroscopy, which is preformed at the hospital as "day surgery". It is a pretty simple procedure. He had it done again last week. We were at the hospital by 7:00. He went in at 8:00 and at 8:30 they told me he would be ready to leave in 15 minutes. Thankfully everything looks good. ~Ann |
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| I've posted this before when the right was worried about "death panels" My father was in the hospital in Vancouver for 6 weeks at the end of his life. He was 84. His hospitalization included implantation of a pace maker, CT scans and surgery for a cerebral hemorrhage. All of that was fully covered. My mother did not receive any bills. Yesterday I was in line at Target and the older man in front of me paid 258.00 for a very small box of something that I'm guessing may have been an eye drop Biologic drugs for my disease can run into the thousands per month and if I was to take the cheapest of all of them, my monthly co-pay would be $300 per month. For profit health care is great isn't it? Pat I hope you're on the mend. |
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| Posted by ronalawn82 pnbrown, in answer to the question from pidge, I have been diagnosed with Gastroesophageal reflux disease (GERD). * It is your business, but I have it too, and I was on Nexium for about a year--at $165 per bottle. It does not set well with me to be on a drug "indefinitely." I found that it didn't "heal" anything as I was told and in fact have had the best luck eating a few slices of apple after a meal if I injest something that aggravates it. You have to masticate the apple very well and follow with a glass of water. Apple cider vinegar with the mother string helps, also, but it's hard to get down. I take the gel capsules from the health food store. Of course I don't eat anything after 7 pm. Occasionally I will take a Prilosec, which has the same active ingredient as Nexium--if this is the drug, read up on it and how the pharmaceutical company marketed the much more expensive Prilosec. Anyway, I empathize with anyone with this problem, which has to be monitored regularly. Eating the apple and chewing very, very finely and following with water helps me. Good Luck! |
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- Posted by marshallz10 z9-10 CA (My Page) on Wed, Feb 20, 13 at 10:46
| OUCH, Pat! Sorry for your injury and facing the costs and the rehab time. Sorry to be late with these sentiments; family visiting and very short-handed at the farm mean a lot less time for HT. |
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| Ham, remember this was a hospital called St. Al's. I would not know if this were fact but if a hospital had no church affiliated with it in any way, maybe there would be no charge for a visiting priest or nun. My charge was listed under "spiritual guidance".... or comfort or ministration, I cant remember exactly the terminology. It was only when I questioned that specific billing that I found out what it actually was. I did have the billing removed. Disgraceful. This was directly before I went into surgery. The next time I needed a surgery, I declined. I had gone along the first time because I didn't want to be rude. |
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| Thing is... we can yell thief and liar all we want... but unless we actually have the wherewithal to drag these companies into court, we're often SOL. Personally, I think we all deserve decent medical care... from the wealthiest to the most poverty stricken... receiving the same high quality health care should not be dependent upon the size of one's bank account, or the ability to pay! And that would include having access to prescription medicines, too! |
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| Thanks, Marshall. HG, actually, I am about done fencing with the MG, injured or not. Facto, my imaginary math is like this: let's say a hypothetical single person pays $5000 a year for insurance for an average working life, so 30x5k=150k (let's ignore inflation by using current health care costs for the whole lifetime). Then they retire and live 30 years more, can't afford insurance on their tiny savings and so qualify for fed insurance programs. The average person over a lifetime is going to use a lot more than 150k in healthcare events if a six-day hospital stay is around about 90k. That's my seat of the pants calculation. It indicates to me that whether in the US or Canada the cost of healthcare is being covered primarily from somewhere other than the efforts of the majority of the recipients of the healthcare. Certainly it's a big factor in the ever-growing national debt. |
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- Posted by kimka z6B (jkkaplan@erols.com) on Wed, Feb 20, 13 at 15:34
| About three years ago, it was being calculated that about $1,000 of a hospital bill was really covering those who don't have any insurance and can't pay their bill. That doesn't include the doctors' bills etc. |
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| Posted by jodik 5 (My Page) on Thing is... we can yell thief and liar all we want... but unless we actually have the wherewithal to drag these companies into court, we're often SOL * For the umpteenth time, if someone is negligent or guilty of fraud, or responsible for the injury to someone else without qualifying mitigating circumstances, there are always attorneys that take these cases on a contingency basis. With some law firms or attorneys, the plaintiff is not out even one dime not even for the filing fee, or for copies, until settlement is collected. Many attorneys give free consultations and many will be HAPPY to take a valid case on a contingency basis--it's what they do. People aren't helpless if they have truly been wronged. |
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| demifloyd wrote, For the umpteenth time, if someone is negligent or guilty of fraud, or responsible for the injury to someone else without qualifying mitigating circumstances, there are always attorneys that take these cases on a contingency basis. With some law firms or attorneys, the plaintiff is not out even one dime not even for the filing fee, or for copies, until settlement is collected. Many attorneys give free consultations and many will be HAPPY to take a valid case on a contingency basis--it's what they do. People aren't helpless if they have truly been wronged. I would be interested to learn of an attorney who would take a case about a disputed $450 hospital bill on contingency. A citation or two would be nice. |
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| Steve Brill in Time Magazine looks at Hospital bills. Yes why does a simple niacin tablet cost $38? $77 for a box of $1 gauze. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Your Bill
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| The ones that get me are the medical equipment rentals. Vacuum wound pump - $350+ a day, plus you have to buy the companies' absurdly high priced bandages. Wheel chair - 15 years ago, that was $100 a day. I don't know what it costs today. You can go down to Rite Aid and buy one for $150. Then there's the "Respiratory Therapists" who visit every day for 8 minutes and watch the patient suck on that plastic thing that has the plunger go up. $250 a visit. For a month. Paying $450 for a pair of AFO's that sell for $20 on the internet. And so on......
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| So five weeks out and still no bill or notice from the hospital or carrier. Is that an unusually long time? Maybe the bill is so huge someone has had to work on it for weeks.....starting to get apprehensive. |
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| I do not think that's unusual at all. |
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| It is unusual for my state. I have a friend that has been in and out of the hospital since January. One week out he had bills coming and going like crazy. |
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- Posted by jerzeegirl 9 (My Page) on Thu, Mar 21, 13 at 13:17
| I think it is unusual. Any chance that it's being processed at Workmen's Comp? I once was injured at work and the whole claim went through my employer's insurance. |
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- Posted by nancy_in_venice_ca SS24 z10 CA (My Page) on Thu, Mar 21, 13 at 13:40
| How is the healing coming along at five weeks? |
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| I was discharged on November 21 and didn't get my first, one-line bill, until sometime in January. Then, I requested an itemized bill which came about 3 weeks later - but, it wasn't actually itemized. Just a summary of all the costs - room for 12 days, operating room, anesthesiologist, CT scan (over $10,000!!!), etc. Still don't know what the individual charges were for meds, etc. I was moved to a private room on the third day but the bill showed it as semi-private. I am now paying $150 a month for ten months, no interest, to pay off my co-pay. |
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| The pricing is just ridiculous, isn't it? Hope you're doing much better... |
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| Don't look a gift horse in the mouth, Brown. Maybe you slipped through the cracks, teehee. |
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| The pricing is ridiculous because someone is having to pay for those that don't pay. It's not unusual at all in my experience to receive a bill 9 months or so after the service was provided. That has happened to me, and to my daughter. Medical bureaucracy is about as inefficient and slow as government bureaucracy. |
This post was edited by demifloyd on Sat, Mar 23, 13 at 12:04
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| Pn, hope the recovery is going well...nasty bit of business . "The pricing is ridiculous because someone is having to pay for those that don't pay." That's the beauty of universal healthcare everyone pays and everyone benefits. |
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| When my DH fell and broke his wrist skiing some years ago it took us over a year to get all the hospital bills. I could not believe it but for one simple break we got seven SEVEN different bills...no wonder healthcare down there costs a fortune. |
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| I just got over $14,000 worth of medical bills from 2010. Insurance should have covered them, but the hospital seems to have sent the bills to the wrong insurance co. Now I get to sort it out. Single payer? Why would anyone ever want single payer? |
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| Especially when the single payer......in the sense of having to sort it all out and issue payments, dispute charges etc isn't you..... ;) |
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| That's the beauty of universal healthcare everyone pays and everyone benefits. * Perhaps, and that's the ugly part, too. As long as someone else is paying the bill there is no incentive to do what it takes to pay your own. Because it is required that others pay, doctors and hospitals charge more to those that DO pay to make up for the services they provide that taxpayers are paying for. There are doctors that actually lose money on procedures they provide to Medicare and Medicaid patients. They make up that money by charging more to those that DO pay, either from their own pocket, by their out of pocket expenses, and/or through their insurance. There is not the competition there once was. Costs have escalated way beyond what the market normally would bear because of government involvement and people that don't pay a dime using so many services. |
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| "As long as someone else is paying the bill there is no incentive to do what it takes to pay your own. " There is no "someone else" paying the costs when it comes to universal healthcare. We all pay......except perhaps the very poor. I can live with that. |
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| When my husband fell two years ago from our tall roof onto the second roof and then to the ground, he broke his back and punctured his lung. He was in the hospital for three days, and we never saw a bill or paid anything but the 15$ bill for the phone in his room. |
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| Nasty fall. Can't be too careful about not falling, I've always been very attentive to that. Too bad I couldn't have been more appreciative about how severely a 90 degree corner of a steel sheet can punch into flesh. The reality has hit home that I engage in an occupation with lots of chances to get badly hurt. It has also become clear to me that nearly all workplace "accidents" are preventable simply by taking more time to prepare, thinking ahead, and just plain not being an idiot. For example, the other day I needed to be slightly higher so I was just about to stand on top of the six-foot stepladder and put the gimp-foot out on something else when a little voice said "wow, idiot, have you learned nothing from being in the hospital?". I found a way to finish the task without doing that. |
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| Wishes for a noneventful and continued recovery to you, pnbrown. Your last paragraph was a good reminder. I stepped down, closed the doors to muffle the incessant chirp and will have to either ask someone to change the battery for me or pay someone to come do it. I have no doubt either would be less expensive in the long run than taking chances. Sometimes we learn the hard way; sometimes we learn from the experiences of others. |
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| Well, at least you're more careful learning from your experience. Husband is a slow learner because in 1996 he fell off his tall second story ladder trimming a dead branch off an old tree with a running chainsaw, broke both arms and suffered a concussion. . We have taken all ladders except step ladders away from him...lol |
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