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Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Posted by Joe1980 WI 4 (My Page) on
Sun, Feb 5, 12 at 16:43

Ok, as I'm sure we're all aware, the political environment is running rampant in Wisonsin. There's other threads out there, but I want to start this one, so we can discuss the facts about Scott Walker's budget repair bill, and the recall that is following because of it. Let's keep the copying and pasting of other people's articles to a minimun, and let's stay on topic, and not start up on various accusations of corruption and so on. I want to talk about the changes made against the public unions, which is the prime reason we are dealing with a recall attempt.

Here are some facts:

Public union members now have to contribute 5.8% to their pensions, and 12.6% the average cost of their healthcare premiums. Most of us get no pensions, and most of us pay WAY more then 12.6% for our healthcare premiums. What's bad about this?

Public school teachers were forced to be union, and had union dues mandatorily taken from their paychecks. Now, they can choose to be union, and those who wish to be, write the checks to the union themselves. Annually, they vote to recertify the unions. What's bad about this?

WEAC, the teacher's union, used collective bargaining to require that all school districts use the healthcare that is provided by WEAC themselves. WEAC has been charging the districts (taxpayers) around double the cost of what the healthcare would cost otherwise, and pocketing the money. We know this because now the districts can choose, and have saved MASSIVE money, while providing the same coverage. What's bad about this?

WEAC had collectively bargained teacher tenure, basing employment on senority, not teacher skill. This is now gone, making job security be based on how good a teacher is, not how long they've been around. What's so bad about this?

These are what are called the main issues that the recalls are based around, mainly that you're not forced into paying the union. There are many other issues, but I'd like to stick to these, because those in support of the recall have gone silent on them. I'd like to hear how you can defend what was happening to the taxpayers, and how Walker's opponent, if at all, is going to attempt to defend it.

Also, and I know due to reletives, public employees took to retiring, with full pension, in spring, and being hired back at full pay shortly after, thus now making twice the salary. Defend this too.

Again, I'm just looking for some insight, because I cannot get any from public employees that I know, or pretty much anyone on the left. I'm not starting a war here.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Most of us get no pensions, and most of us pay WAY more then 12.6% for our healthcare premiums. What's bad about this?

What is so bad about universal health care if you are so concerned about evening up benefits?

Public school teachers were forced to be union, and had union dues mandatorily taken from their paychecks. Now, they can choose to be union, and those who wish to be, write the checks to the union themselves. Annually, they vote to recertify the unions. What's bad about this?

It sounds fair, but in reality, it is a way to undermine the Unions whose main strength is from numbers and solidarity.

WEAC had collectively bargained teacher tenure, basing employment on senority, not teacher skill. This is now gone, making job security be based on how good a teacher is, not how long they've been around. What's so bad about this?

How do you measure "teacher skill" ? Seniority indicates that a teacher has performed well for years and deserves tenure.

Also, and I know due to reletives, public employees took to retiring, with full pension, in spring, and being hired back at full pay shortly after, thus now making twice the salary. Defend this too.

I'm actually against early retirement for any public employee.
It should be 65 not 55. I also think that pulic employees that are on pension should have those pensions reduced if they are declaring more than a certain amount of annual income (say $20K) over and above their pension salary and benefits.
I too know early retired 56 year old teachers who are on $70,000+ pensions and working full time jobs making nearly that much more money.

Universal Health insurance would solve a LOT of these issues.

Remember before you jump on the GOP Union busting wagon, Unions were created for many legitimate reasons. Unions are the backbone of the middle class worker. If you break them, you break the back of the middle class. You increase the income inequality that has already gone way too far. and with that you risk a major revolt in this country that would make Occupy Wall Street look like a family picnic. You also contribute to a deflationary cycle that puts lets cash into the pockets of people twho need it for everyday necessities while preserving the inordinate wealth of the plutocrats.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

What is so bad about universal health care if you are so concerned about evening up benefits?

Universal healthcare evens up the benefits for EVERYONE, including those who don't work and/or contribute to the fund. This is socialism. I do not wish to even things up, and don't mind the public employees having pensions, but I'd like to stop hearing all the whining about having to pay for a small chunk of it.

It sounds fair, but in reality, it is a way to undermine the Unions whose main strength is from numbers and solidarity.

So you feel we should FORCE membership to create strength in numbers? If the public unions have so much solidarity, they will keep the numbers up on their own right?

How do you measure "teacher skill" ? Seniority indicates that a teacher has performed well for years and deserves tenure.

Great question, and a difficult one to answer. We've tried over & over, with no real answer. However, there are many obvious reasons for a teacher to get fired, such as bad attendance, but the union will not allow for it. For example, a teacher reletive of mine accepted tickets for a cruise from family, for free. Problem is, the cruise is this month, during the school year. She complained that she can't go on the cruise because of Scott Walker. When I asked why, she said "because the school district frowns on taking 2 weeks off during the school year". I asked her "didn't they always?", and she said "yeah, but now I can get in trouble or fired for it". So, because of evil Scott Walker, she has to follow the same rules as everyone.

I'm glad you agree on the double dipping thing. It's bad enough if they retire with full pension, and still work, but even worse when they go right back to the same job, for the same pay, plus pension.

Universal Health insurance would solve a LOT of these issues

I can't agree on this one, due to the laws of economics. Also, if the universal healthcare that stands to take effect (Obamacare) is so good, why doesn't our own congress have to take it, and why are so many unions being exempt from it? I don't want to get too deep on this, because it's going to end up taking us off topic.

Remember before you jump on the GOP Union busting wagon, Unions were created for many legitimate reasons. Unions are the backbone of the middle class worker.

You are right, unions were, and I emphasize WERE, created for many legitimate reasons. However, over time I feel they have abused their power, and asked for too much. This can be seen in how many major unionized employers, just in Wisconsin, have left the state or country, due to being squeezed by the unions. Private companies like Mercury Marine can ask for concessions if they start losing money. If the unions don't want to do that, the company can leave. Trade unions can do the same, but instead of leave, they can leave the union. What can our school districts and cities do when the unions squeeze them too much? They can't leave, and they can't go non-union.

I do thank you for the good, civil reply. This is the kind of debating I like.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Sun, Feb 5, 12 at 19:02

If you break them, you break the back of the middle class. You increase the income inequality that has already gone way too far. and with that you risk a major revolt in this country that would make Occupy Wall Street look like a family picnic. You also contribute to a deflationary cycle that puts lets cash into the pockets of people twho need it for everyday necessities while preserving the inordinate wealth of the plutocrats.

....would have liked to have read a rebuttal to this last part.

:)


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Remember before you jump on the GOP Union busting wagon,

Rahm Emanuel is a Republican?


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

....would have liked to have read a rebuttal to this last part.

Nobody is trying to break unions, but simply giving people the choice. If the union truly is the backbone of the middle class, they'll make the choice to keep the unions alive right?


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Unions ...

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Sun, Feb 5, 12 at 19:39

The republicans have been trying to break the backs of the unions since Reagan fired the air traffic controllers .. our own gubnor said it during his campaign before he took office.

He must have been shocked when the voters of Ohio shot down his union busting bill .. never bite the hand that votes for you.

I hope Walker gets the same slap down that Kasich got.

Go Wisconsin !!


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

I hope Walker gets the same slap down that Kasich got.

I have to ask you though, if Walker gets recalled, what is it that YOU would like to see happen? Give all the money that public employees have to contribute to health and pension back? Return collective bargaining and double the cost for the mandatory WEAC provided insurace? Return to mandatory union membership, with no freedom to choose? If so, how would you pay for it, and how would you pitch that to the people of Wisconsin?

never bite the hand that votes for you

Those hands never have, and never will, vote for republicans. They did however vote for Rahm Emmanuel (thank you brushworks), and he did indeed bite the hands the voted for him. Any thoughts on that?


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Sun, Feb 5, 12 at 20:59

Sorry you are wrong (again) .. 40% of "those hands" (public workers) voted for Kasich in Ohio.

Teachers do not have to join the union, they can go work at a low wage, no benefit "charter school". No one is forcing anyone who chooses not to have a voice to join a union.

Lots and lots of private non-union jobs available. Hear that Walmart is hiring ... and you can get medicaid to pay for your medical bills. Oh wait a minute .. that would ALSO be "taxpayer dollars" too.

Or you can become a politician with benefits ... ooops "taxpayer dollars" again.

The unions and the middle class are not destroying this country ... you have to look a little "higher" up that mountain that is in front of you.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Public sector unions will eventually destroy every state and local government if they aren't reigned in.

Politicans make promises with other people's money in order to get union votes. They don't care that the municipality will go bankrupt in 20 years. Oh, wait, municipalities are going bankrupt now.

I've stayed off the Walker threads because I'm not a fan of his association with Koch and the like, but at the same time, I don't support the union takeover of a state, either.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

  • Posted by lenam Fitzwalkerstan (My Page) on
    Mon, Feb 6, 12 at 10:15

Public sector unions will eventually destroy every state and local government if they aren't reigned in.

How so?


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

"How do you measure "teacher skill" ? Seniority indicates that a teacher has performed well for years and deserves tenure.

To some extent that is correct. But, there are teachers who have tenure due to years in the job that have been in the job too long and no longer "perform well". Either they have become so jaded that they just don't care or they haven't stayed current in the subject they teach. DD had a couple of those teachers in high school. Those teachers may have stayed beyond their time because the administration was too timid and/or too broke to pursue the court battle that may result from firing a tenured teacher.

I'm not sure what the solution is. There is no wonderful, perfect way to measure a teacher's effectiveness but there are problems with the tenure "system" as well.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

  • Posted by vgkg 7-Va Tidewater (My Page) on
    Mon, Feb 6, 12 at 10:48

I have no dog in this fight (or friendly debate) but was wondering if candidate Walker had anything in his platform that was related to controlling unions? If he did not then I can more clearly understand the public backlash, recall, etc. People don't like any politician to bait and then switch after being elected. I speak as a retired non-unioned public servant who gets a 51% (of salary) pension of which I believe is quite fair (though going back to full time work for the state is forbidden). The only other retirement benefit was $4/year service that goes towards a healthcare provider of my choice (which amounts to 10% of today's premiums).

Don't mean to tangent from the main topic but was interested in knowing Walker's stated pre-election goals.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

How will public sector unions destroy states and municipalities?

Municipalities are being destroyed now by the overly generous pensions and health insurance plans promised by politicians who weren't going to be around when the bill came due.

I don't blame the retirees. They were promised these things and planned their retirements around them. However, present day taxpayers are having to do without current services in order to pay for these retirement plans that were promised by politicians.

It's insane to continue to allow politicians to bargain away the future of any municipality for votes. Insane.

Private sector unions have learned that they can only bargain for so much before they kill the goose that laid the golden egg. Well, public sector unions will soon find out that their goose is cooked, too, when more municipalties and states go bankrupt. :( Meanwhile, ordinary citizens are going to go without needed services even while their taxes are raised. Again, insanity.


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Walker campaign

  • Posted by lenam Fitzwalkerstan (My Page) on
    Mon, Feb 6, 12 at 11:06

This from JSOnline, who endorsed Walker for Governor in 2010.

Here is a link that might be useful: False: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker says he campaigned on his budget repair plan, including curtailing collective bargaining


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

>> Municipalities are being destroyed now by the overly generous pensions and health insurance plans promised by politicians who weren't going to be around when the bill came due.

In Wisconsin, pensions and health insurance plans were fully funded by union members.

Out of every dollar that funds Wisconsin's pension and health insurance plans for state workers, 100 cents comes from the state workers.

How can that be? Because the "contributions" consist of money that employees chose to take as deferred wages -- as pensions when they retire -- rather than take immediately in cash. The same is true with the health care plan. If this were not so a serious crime would be taking place, the gift of public funds rather than payment for services.

Thus, state workers are not being asked to simply "contribute more" to Wisconsin's retirement system (or as the argument goes, "pay their fair share" of retirement costs as do employees in Wisconsin's private sector who still have pensions and health insurance). They are being asked to accept a cut in their salaries so that the state of Wisconsin can use the money to fill the hole left by tax cuts and reduced audits of corporations in Wisconsin.

The labor agreements show that the pension plan money is part of the total negotiated compensation. The key phrase, in those agreements I read (emphasis added), is: "The Employer shall contribute on behalf of the employee." This shows that this is just divvying up the total compensation package, so much for cash wages, so much for paid vacations, so much for retirement, etc.

Really Bad Reporting in Wisconsin: Who 'Contributes' to Public Workers' Pensions?


With 100% funding, Wisconsin and New York had the two best funded pensions in the nation Source


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

DH was a teacher for ten years so I know whereof I speak. He used his medical background to work with disabled kids in P.E. He was good. So were all the other teachers he worked with. But he quit. As did many of the others he worked with as the new Superintendent (who didn't have a Ph.D. but received an honorary doctorate and then insisted that everyone address him as "Dr.") put his cronies in administrative positions. In order to bring down their costs, they harassed the teachers unmercifully, and many teachers quit. This allowed the administration to bring in much newer, inexperienced teachers at 2/3 the cost. It was happening in other districts as well. Without tenure, administrators would be able to fire any teacher making over a certain amount of salary and hire much cheaper ones. DH was privy to a couple of horrific things that happened because the teacher didn't know what he/she was doing, due to lack of experience.

I know there are poor teachers. But they are in the minority. To destroy the system because of them will ultimately hurt all students, not just students of poor teachers in one subject.

Yeah, the question of how to determine who is a good teacher is a tough one. I know, however, that allowing adminisstrators to make that determination won't work and kids will end up being on the short end of the stick.

The subject of pensions is a whole other topic. Until the 80's (maybe late 70's) almost everyone, who worked for a company for a set period, received a pension. Then companies started getting greedy, taking risks, using the money set aside for pensions, and POOF! - there it went. And, vulture capitalists were at the bottom of it. It will probably get much worse before OWS will look like a picnic.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Those future benefits (as part of the total compensation package) was given by politicians who were more concerned about getting elected than maintaining fiscal sanity. If workers had actually been given the money in present day salary, we all know that they would have never been able to command that much.

Bennies by votes and future taxpayers get screwed.


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Yikes

Yikes, I always type too fast. Please excuse all the mispellings and typos. :(

I really do know that a word meaning "to purchase" is spelled "buy" and not "by" as I typed it.

I also notice a subject/verb error. :( Oh, well, flunk me.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

My suggestion to compromise between full universal health care for all and the mandatory private insurance system that we have under the Affordable Healthcare Act is to reform and expand Medicare to include all citizens 50 or older.
That could be augmented with a government subsidy for those under 50 who could prove that their income was not sufficient to purchase health insurance.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

In Wisconsin, pensions and health insurance plans were fully funded by union members

This is not a true statement. First off, union members do not write the check or even see the cost, their employer does. And where do you suppose their employers get the money to pay them?

I have no dog in this fight (or friendly debate) but was wondering if candidate Walker had anything in his platform that was related to controlling unions?

He did, despite what the biased "truth-o-meter" from the Milwaukee Urinal-Sentinal says. I specifically supported Scott Walker because he said he'd reign in the spending on lavish union benefits, and curtail collective bargaining in order to prevent wasted money, and making up of employee contribution by bargaining back money in other ways. People deny this all the time, which I find laughable, being that many of us supported him for that very reason.

Anyhow, I can make one major observation from these discussions, and that is how NOBODY on the left even attempts to defend the facts stated in my opening post. I want to hear a defense on being forced to pay double for teacher's healthcare, through collective bargaining. I also want to hear the defense on how someone can be mad that they no longer FORCE union membership.

I would also like to suggest that the government subsidized healthcare topic be put on it's own thread, so we can keep focused on the topic.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Union busting and trying to steal the pension funds, based on nothing but lies.

The FBI will take Walker out before he can complete this task.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

You take a job with an outfit whose terms of employment include a pension plan. Pensions are delayed compensation. Pension plans invest in the stock market, real estate, what ever, to increase their return.

When the market tanks due to greed heads and sharks, the value of the pension goes way down - then it is up to the employer to cover the difference - or, bail out of the obligation and the contract. That is what is happening now, and the way to cover up the fact that the reason they can't cover the contract is because the idijts on Wall Street blew up the economy, they blame the unions.

So, of course, the big push is to privatize pensions, let you deal with the sharks on your own with your IRA and 401K. Remember Bush II in his second term running around talking about individual social security accounts, and how well that worked out? The Republicans in congress still want to do this, they just call it something different - 'personalized' retirement accounts or something.

The other thing to look out for is that state legislators eye that bundle of invested retirement money as a cash cow - it isn't their money, it belongs to the state employees. But if they can create enough garbage about unions and all that, they get their hands on it.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

David how right you are. Wisconsin's problem with the well-run pension system came up as "bad union" sucking down tax payers' levies. People like Joe1980 are hell-bent on promoting these deceptions now that the Gov. and legislature have already taken the pension money and move it into other uses, thereby creating an immediate pension crisis. Shame on them.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Maddie,

What are your thoughts on Rahm Emmanuel's union busting administration? Does he get a free pass from you?


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Public school teachers were forced to be union, and had union dues mandatorily taken from their paychecks. Now, they can choose to be union, and those who wish to be, write the checks to the union themselves. Annually, they vote to recertify the unions. What's bad about this?

What's bad is that union membership comes with benefits for all the workers. Including things like negotiating for pay, benefits, retirement packages, discrimination, unfair work practices... these things benefit all the workers. If some workers pay dues and some don't, then some workers are reaping the benefits of something that they have not paid for. And it also weakens the ability of the union to collectively bargain, when not all the workers represented equally. It also puts less money in the unions bank account limiting their access to legal consult, pension contributions, sub pay for laid off workers, etc. etc.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Healthcare has everything to do with Union benefits.
That is why it is is ironic that Republicans push to bust Unions based upon unfair pension and healthcare benefits while they oppose universal healthcare.

All of the issues with pensions and benefits for current public employees can be dealt with through collective bargaining without allowing the Republicans to bust unions for political power.

There is a problem with existing public employee retiree pension funds in many States. Perhaps those have to be renegotiated if it means solvency. Same goes for private company employee pension funds when they get into the red. Once again, universal healthcare would go a long way toward solving the financial problems with pension funds, public or private.

Rahm Emmanuel? Perhaps open a separate thread? Ok, listen here. Rahmbo does not get a pass from me or most Democrats on what he is doing with the public school system in Chicago.

The problems with the city's neighborhood public school system has little or nothing to do with the teachers. They have a budget problem, an infrastructure problem, problems with run down, thinned out neighborhoods and changing demographics. Chicago is another city that was racially segregated for generations and is still feeling the burden of catering to segregated neighborhoods with minority populations. There are aging schools in neighborhoods that have been hit particularly hard by the Bush Crash and have limited enrollment.
There are also neighborhood specific problems from language barriers in Hispanic neighborhoods to guns and gangs in some of the tougher areas.

As far as unions and their members, this while you Fox boxes jump on the Walker union busting bandwagon....neither the unions nor the hard working union members had anything to do with the Bush Crash.
Look elsewhere to dig us out of the hole that Bush blasted in the economy.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

  • Posted by vgkg 7-Va Tidewater (My Page) on
    Tue, Feb 7, 12 at 17:48

""He did, despite what the biased "truth-o-meter" from the Milwaukee Urinal-Sentinal says. I specifically supported Scott Walker because he said he'd reign in the spending on lavish union benefits, and curtail collective bargaining in order to prevent wasted money, and making up of employee contribution by bargaining back money in other ways. People deny this all the time, which I find laughable, being that many of us supported him for that very reason.

Ok Joe, as a Republican senator once said about Obama being born in the USA "I'll take his (your) word for it" :). News reports here (yeah, I know it's news reports) stated that the firefighters and cops were especially dumbfounded by Walker's actions as they were supporting him and didn't see this coming. I'll see if I can google up old tv ads where Walker mentions unions (unless you got one for me :). Ya see Joe, I'm not all that interested in the consequences of Walkers actions, just looking for more clues as to his honesty in being a civic leader.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Rham Emmanuel is a Republican?


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Still no good answers. Who's gonna defend, or even TALK ABOUT the taxpayers being soaked double for the teacher's healthcare? Everyone keeps ignoring the things that were obviously screwing the taxpayers, and bringing up other things. Promoting universal healthcare is 100% irrelevent in defending the above situation.

Union busting and trying to steal the pension funds, based on nothing but lies.

Let's here those facts! Explain to me how Walker is stealing pension funds. What legislation did he pass that takes it, and where is he supposedly shuffling it to? Asking for contributions doesn't seem to me to be the same as stealing.
David how right you are. Wisconsin's problem with the well-run pension system came up as "bad union" sucking down tax payers' levies. People like Joe1980 are hell-bent on promoting these deceptions now that the Gov. and legislature have already taken the pension money and move it into other uses, thereby creating an immediate pension crisis. Shame on them.

Again, how have people's pensions been stolen? Where is it now being used? Also, you are very mistaken on how pensions work. Workers are garunteed a certain amount when retired, regardless of the economy or Wall Street. Have a private 401K? Awe, too bad, you're money is gone, no retirement fund, but the silver lining is that you also get to pay more tax now because the unions' funds lost money too!

The problems with the city's neighborhood public school system has little or nothing to do with the teachers. They have a budget problem

Ok, so what's your solution? I know I know, raise taxes. Ok, now you got more of our money, so what are you going to do with it? The public schools have been raising taxes here year after year, without fail. The schools here in my small town are great, and my kids are doing excellent. The big city ones like Milwaukee suck, but they still have been getting more and more money each year. So they should get better every year with that money right? Nope, they get worse every year. I went to MPS, and I know the real reason they suck, and it's not money and it's not teachers, its crappy parenting, a topic for another thread.

If some workers pay dues and some don't, then some workers are reaping the benefits of something that they have not paid for

But the union has solidarity, and there is nothing to worry about right? All the members are going to stick together right? So what are the unions so worried about?

Including things like negotiating for pay, benefits, retirement packages, discrimination, unfair work practices...

Don't forget about mandatory WEAC provided insurance, at double the price!

as a Republican senator once said about Obama being born in the USA

Who cares about this? I never once even payed any mind to this rediculous story. I thought it was stupid to ever persue Obama's place of birth.

firefighters and cops were especially dumbfounded by Walker's actions as they were supporting him and didn't see this coming

This is because most people do not pay attention, and they are also not used to a politician actually doing what they said they would. Also, firefighters and cops were not affected. My brother-in-law, a public union employee, was baffled when he had to contribute into his healthcare and pension, and said "I would have never voted for Walker if I knew he would make me pay more for stuff". He never pays attention, and never has, but claims Walker never said he'd do that.

Rham Emmanuel is a Republican?

I think a better description would be "A Democrat who saw the light".


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Again, I'm just looking for some insight, because I cannot get any from public employees that I know, or pretty much anyone on the left.

Go check out Fox News and FreeRepublic or even RealClearPolitics. There's plenty of incite there.

-Ron-


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Tue, Feb 7, 12 at 21:50

when he had to contribute into his healthcare and pension

"tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies"

Public employees have ALWAYS contributed to their healthcare/pensions. Even back in the last century when I was a public employee we did. You really need to check outrageous misinformation at the door.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

when he had to contribute into his healthcare and pension
"tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies"

So are you saying he actually DIDN'T have to contribute?

Ohiomom, when I started this thread, I politely asked to stick to the facts, and keep it civil. You just keep on dropping by and tossing in comments, with no intent other than to inflame the situation. You might know some things about Ohio, but you seem a bit confused on how things work here in Wisconsin. Unless you want to answer some of the real questions asked and stop posting useless sarcasm, please move on.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Looks like Ms. Wink has plea bargained to two misdemeanors and will now attempt to sing like a canary.

-Ron-

Here is a link that might be useful: How do you like your toast?


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Yep she'll sing so she doesn't have to eat prison baloney sandwiches. A felony conviction would require some time & this plea will get her off with probation! With a misdemeanor she can still voter her am um conscience!


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Wed, Feb 8, 12 at 7:14

Reading comprehension 101: Joe said: "when he had to contribute" Mom said: "public employees have always contributed to their healthcare and pensions".

What part of that don't you understand ?

You don't get to dictate to me or anyone else young Joe.

Get over yourself.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Our Other Joe here wants us to accept his "facts" and not challenge his Walkerian World view.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

  • Posted by lenam Fitzwalkerstan (My Page) on
    Wed, Feb 8, 12 at 8:14

Walker supporters have to believe lies and misinformation.
It is all they have.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Also, and I know due to reletives, public employees took to retiring, with full pension, in spring, and being hired back at full pay shortly after, thus now making twice the salary. Defend this too.

Not to accuse your relatives of exaggeration, but I'd like to see some documentation of this. Are you claiming that state employees are collecting a pension while collecting a paycheck from the SAME state job? That does seem really odd but I don't see how this is working for twice the salary - it is working AFTER retirement with a pension something people do quite often.

The most common occurrence of people working with a pension that I am aware of is in the military where people put in their years and retire at 55 with their pension and then go work for some other agency - Homeland Security perhaps or some private security firm that contracts with DOD. I don't see anything wrong with folks legally collecting their pensions and then continuing to work if they want, and I'm not sure why YOU have a problem with it unless it is perhaps ENVY. No one should be FORCED to retire or excluded from a job where they are the better candidate simply because they collect a pension.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

  • Posted by vgkg 7-Va Tidewater (My Page) on
    Wed, Feb 8, 12 at 9:04

as a Republican senator once said about Obama being born in the USA

Who cares about this? I never once even payed any mind to this rediculous story. I thought it was stupid to ever persue Obama's place of birth.

Joe, my words had little to do with Obama and everything to do with taking your word that Walker ran on a platform which favored curtailing unions. Apparently you have the same good avoidance skills as you accuse others of having. So much for the firefighters and cops which supported Walker, guess they weren't paying attention.....or Walker is dishonest...hummmm, which is the truth and whom do I trust to tell it?


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

You don't get to dictate to me or anyone else young Joe.

Get over yourself.

I don't really care what you do, and your input is not really helping much, so whatever. There is already a thread for chatting about Walker investigations, theories about why he is corrupt, and all that other stuff. I tried to discuss the things I started this thread about in the other one, and got told to go make a new thread. Now you same people want to follow and be confrontational. It's time YOU got over YOURSELVES. Go post your investigation updates over in that thread, where the are better suited.

Our Other Joe here wants us to accept his "facts" and not challenge his Walkerian World view.

Marshall, go back to the top and read the very first post. Let's hear you answer those quesions and defend those scenarios. Enough with the jabs; get to the points.

Walker supporters have to believe lies and misinformation.
It is all they have.

Same to you, get to the point and quit with the jabs, because you aren't making your case. Simply calling Walker supporters liers and closing your case does nothing.

Not to accuse your relatives of exaggeration, but I'd like to see some documentation of this. Are you claiming that state employees are collecting a pension while collecting a paycheck from the SAME state job?

This is 100% true. My wife's uncle, a member of our hunting group, is proudly "double dipping". He had no problem bragging about it, and claims that he works hard and deserves it. There is no law against it, unless the employee and employer had discussed or planned that the employee would be rehired. In the case of this family member, they did, but with no documentaion, there is no case. He willingly admits that he purposely retired before the budget repair bill, and that his boss planned to hire him back at FULL pay, versus posting the job and hiring a new employee, who makes less. This is happening all over the state, just search "Wisconsin double dipping", and you'll get tons of stories on it, some fair, and most biased one way or the other.

and I'm not sure why YOU have a problem with it unless it is perhaps ENVY. No one should be FORCED to retire or excluded from a job where they are the better candidate simply because they collect a pension.

The problem is that the jobs by law are supposed to be posted, and other people can apply. But, those other people never get hired, just the "former" employee. Sure, they have experience, but also get paid a lot more. Also, why would someone retire, only to be rehired 2 months later? You don't really believe that ALL of them THOUGHT they wanted to retire, got bored, and came back, do you? When this happens, the taxpayers are on the hook for double the pay, for the same work. In the case of my family member, he was the lead person at a small town sewer plant, with 5 employees. He was paid accordingly as well for being the boss. He retires, and someone else moves into the boss position, and paid accordingly. Then the "old boss" gets rehired as one of the 5 employees under the boss, but at his old boss pay grade! Now the taxpayers get to pay for 2 bosses and a pension. I do not envy this, because I would feel like a schmuck ripping off the taxpayers like that. Also, thanks Kingturtle for being one of the few who is engaging the thread topic, and not just posting confrontational nonsense.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

I took your advice and googled Wisconsin Double dipping. It would appear that the Governor is trying, not to stop to practice because it is necessary to fill certain positions like special ed teachers, but to stop the people who go back to work from continuing to tack on more retirement benefits. That seems reasonable - experienced people with special skills are still needed, but shouldn't continue to add on more pension benefits from the same source.

You might have noted that Governor Perry of Texas is doing the same thing - pulling retirement while continuing to work. This also happens with 'retired' military, retired police, etc. Around here, we have a phenomenon where K12 teachers work until they are eligible for their Colorado State pension, then go work in Arizona or New Mexico on the Navajo Reservation until they are vested in Social Security as well. Nothing wrong with that, as far as I can tell.

I may be mistaken, but you seem to be focused on pulling down other workers to the level of your salary, poor job security, lousy health insurance, and non-existent pension instead of wondering why the h*ll and who the h*ll is responsible for everybody else's working conditions to go down the tubes. Keep in mind that you're just one Wall Street private equity fund away from losing your job as well.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Joe, I agree that the Wisconsin case sounds fishy if someone retired to get their pension without vacating their job. If that's how Wisconsin set up their retirement rules then they are seriously in need of tightening up. However, lets not condemn everyone who gets a job after retirement. With pensions getting leaner and leaner, that is an option that people may be forced to embrace because they can't afford to retire. I also don't see a major problem with retaining a retiree on a part-time contract basis in order to benefit from their experience and skills during a transition and to help prepare the person who assumes their old job. This is something that happens quite often in the private sector and less so in the federal Gov't for certain skilled positions.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

The schools here in my small town are great, and my kids are doing excellent. The big city ones like Milwaukee suck, but they still have been getting more and more money each year. So they should get better every year with that money right? Nope, they get worse every year. I went to MPS, and I know the real reason they suck, and it's not money and it's not teachers, its crappy parenting, a topic for another thread.

The reality of is that we have (in Chicago and in many other big cities) a public school system with old buildings (some 50-100 year old structures that should be razed) embedded in old neighborhoods which have been thinned out with foreclosures and demolished properties. The city does not have the same local tax base as the more affluent and white suburban schools do, so it is not accurate to suggest that big city public schools have all the money they need. In fact, the old city schools are more like the decaying skeleton left after the white flight of the late 1960's and thereafter.

The problems are complex because of the budget problems, the decaying infrastructure, segregated inner city neighborhoods, inner city crime, and children who come from homes where Spanish is still the primary language of their parents.

The same old Republican ideological talking points like "parental responsibility" are not going to solve these problems, nor will just busting up the Unions as Walker is doing or moving toward Charter schools as Emmanuel has been doing.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

I may be mistaken, but you seem to be focused on pulling down other workers to the level of your salary, poor job security, lousy health insurance, and non-existent pension

You are mistaken. You made a bad assumption here, because you have no idea of how much I make, my job security, my health insurance, and my retirement. Also, working while gathering a pension isn't a problem to me. I couldn't care less if a public employee puts in their time, retires, and goes to work elesewhere. The problem I have is when they retire, gather a pansion, then turn around and get the same job back, essentially for double the cost to the taxpayers. And for the record, I have no complaints about my pay, job security, healthcare, or retirement.

The same old Republican ideological talking points like "parental responsibility" are not going to solve these problems

This isn't idealogy, it's reality. I don't know your situtation, but for this discussion, let's assume you have children. Who do YOU feel is responsible for YOUR children doing good in school, having good behavior, and basically turning into a well rounded adult? I can tell you this, it is NOT the school's responsibilty, and anyone who thinks it is better reevaluate their thought process. The school's job is to present learning material to children, and help them to retain the material. Teacher's aren't daycare employees, and should NOT have to deal with unruley children. They also can't follow kids home to make sure they do their homework. They can't come over every morning to make sure kids get up and go to school either. Kids also don't need Taj Mahal to learn. Heck, in the old days, school was in a flippin barn, and they did fine, because if they didn't, they had to answer to their parents, who cared.

Also, you need to be informed of where money is being spent in schools. I, as an electrician, have worked in quite a few. I can tell you some things that will blow your socks off about wasted money. How about installing eight 48" plasma TVs in the lunchroom, for $60,000? Imagine the books you could buy with that money. How about puchasing a dozen vending machines for $40,000, plus $3,000 to install seperate outlets for each one, which are now filled with things like Pop Tarts, soda, candy, chips, and other junk food? I can go on and on. This kind of money waste has nothing to do with Unions either.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

I couldn't care less if a public employee puts in their time, retires, and goes to work elesewhere. The problem I have is when they retire, gather a pansion, then turn around and get the same job back, essentially for double the cost to the taxpayers.

I'm sorry - how is that any different based on WHERE they get their job? The taxpayer-funded job was going to pay someone to fill that job. Why would you ever care WHO they paid?


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Parental responsibility cannot solve the budgetary problems that the big city school systems are having.
Do you think that the parents of inner city students are not as responsible as suburban schools students parents?
OK, so does that mean that the teachers in the city schools deserve less pay? Longer requirements for tenure?


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

I'm sorry - how is that any different based on WHERE they get their job

Read my example above. The city job that was "vacated" is supposed to be posted, and filled. If the "retired" employee didn't return, the job would be filled with a new, lower paid employee, not one who worked his way up all these years. I'm not petitioning for lower pay, I am telling you to actually acknowlage my example of someone retiring as the boss, with boss' pay, and coming back for boss' pay, while not being a boss anymore. Plus having a new boss, at boss' pay. Realistically, the new boss should have hired a new employee, or took back the retired employee for a new guy's pay. The taxpayers are basically getting the same service, with the same employees, for a LOT higher price.

Heri, you're dodging my questions. I want to know how you think more money will make the schools better, besides materially. Sure, they'll look nice, maybe have some A/C, new lunch tables, freshly painted walls, new lighting, and so on. But what will all that material stuff do to help the education students recieve?

Do you think that the parents of inner city students are not as responsible as suburban schools students parents?

Generally yes. Not all are, obviously, and I know this because I grew up in the inner city, and did well in school. With that said, how come I came out of inner city public school with good grades, and now a good job, while a lot of kids left the SAME school with bad grades, and now are struggling in life? My mother raised 3 kids alone, on $9 an hour, so don't try and say it was money.

Also, the small town I live in now, which has less students then my graduating class had, has schools that are equally, or more, run down than the schools I went to in Milwaukee. Yet, kids are leaving these schools with excellent educations. The classes have the same number of students, if not more, and a lot less resources then the schools I went to. What do you think is the difference here?


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

If the "retired" employee didn't return, the job would be filled with a new, lower paid employee, not one who worked his way up all these years.

I have no information that says when he comes back he gets the same salary that he did before - do you have something that says that?

Since he doesn't need a pension or healthcare (gets that through his role as a retiree), they are saving money on him. For a new employee they would have to pay those things. At my place of employment these people come back as "contractors" and are technically employed by the contracting firm. And they get little to no vacation or other benefits.

But I agree, they should post the job before filling it with the old employee.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

I have no information that says when he comes back he gets the same salary that he did before - do you have something that says that?

I do not. He told us himself, but it was also posted in our local newspaper, but they have no online version. The paper stated that he would be recieving the same wage, and stated how much that was. I know for a fact that the job was not posted, at least not in the paper, where ALL other city jobs are posted, because I was specifically checking because I knew what was going to happen. I'm sure they "posted" the job on the bulletin board at the sewer plant where only the sewer employees go.


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Rather selective outrage

  • Posted by lenam Fitzwalkerstan (My Page) on
    Wed, Feb 8, 12 at 15:40

The administration of Gov. Scott Walker hired the 27-year-old son of a veteran lobbyist then promoted him to an $81,500-per-year job overseeing environmental and regulatory matters and dozens of employees, despite his having no college degree and little management experience, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reported Monday.

...He's the son of Jerry Deschane, a longtime lobbyist for the Madison-based Wisconsin Builders Association. The group's political action committee gave $29,000 to the campaigns of Walker and his running mate, putting it among the campaign's top donors.

The newspaper reports that members of the trade group also funneled more than $92,000 to Walker's campaign over the past two years, bringing the contribution total to $121,652...

State Rep. Brett Hulsey, D-Madison, called Brian Deschane's hiring a case of the new administration using state jobs to repay various industries. He noted the younger Deschane's resume indicates he lacks environmental or management experience.

"It doesn't look like he's ever had a real job," Hulsey said.

David Carlson, spokesman for the Department of Regulation and Licensing, confirmed to the newspaper that Gilkes recommended Deschane for an interview with the agency.

A month later, department Secretary David Ross, a member of Walker's Cabinet, named Deschane the bureau director of board services, a job that paid $64,728 a year.

Not long after, [REPUBLICAN] lawmakers approved the governor's plan to convert the Department of Commerce to a public-private hybrid in charge of economic development, with its regulatory functions being moved to other agencies. Commerce Secretary Paul Jadin then appointed Deschane to his new job there to oversee the changes.

"It was felt that he would be helpful in working through the transition issues," said Commerce Department spokesman Tony Hozeny.

The move meant that after only a few months with the state, Deschane was given a pay raise of more than $16,500 a year.

Walker spokesman Cullen Werwie said the administration knew about the younger Deschane's drunken-driving convictions - most recently in 2008 - but it "felt he had changed his habits and that these past incidents would in no way affect his performance at this job."


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

...but it "felt he had changed his habits and that these past incidents would in no way affect his performance at this job.

I can appreciate that. Considering Scott Walker's history at Marquette, I'm sure the Wisconsin voter acted similarly when voting for Mr. Walker. They felt he had changed his habits and that these past incidents would in no way affect his performance at this job...but they were wrong.

-Ron-


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Those posts are perfect for the "Walker Walker Walker Woes" thread, where the discussion is of this nature. You two just can't seem to even attempt to actually read my opening post, and work on those topics. Lenam and Ron, you both have literally contributed nothing to this thread, other then quick and easy jabs, and copy & pasted articles not even having anything to do with the topic.

You're talkin the talk, but not walkin the walk. Start answering the tough questions and quit with the petty jabs and off topic at changing the subject.


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Facts???

  • Posted by lenam Fitzwalkerstan (My Page) on
    Wed, Feb 8, 12 at 17:48

Let's start at the beginning of this thread.

Joe1980: Public union members now have to contribute 5.8% to their pensions, and 12.6% the average cost of their healthcare premiums.

In Wisconsin, pensions and health insurance plans were fully funded by union members. Out of every dollar that funds Wisconsin's pension and health insurance plans for state workers, 100 cents comes from the state workers. You claimed that is not true, yet offered no evidence to counter it.

They were already paying 100% of their pension and health insurance costs. Union members effectively took a pay cut, of thousands of dollars/year. The unions came to the table and offered to take cuts, before Walker took away their collective bargaining rights. Walker refused to meet with any employee unions. He unilaterally cut their salaries and he took away their rights.

These people were not living high on the hog. With salary cuts they have to save money somewhere -- cut back on Friday Fish Fries -- and there goes the business at the local diner. The diner lays off wait staff, and those folks can no longer afford rent. Their landlord gets no income on that property, and another place sits vacant...

Woo hoo, enjoy that $45 bucks you saved on your taxes ! ! !


Joe1980: Most of us get no pensions, and most of us pay WAY more then 12.6% for our healthcare premiums. What's bad about this?

You got lousy benefits. That is not right, but if you had a union, you could get better benefits. Why bring everyone down to the lowest level? That is a race to the bottom, and it brings great joy to the people who are really making the bucks to goad the peasants into squabbling over a few crumbs.


Joe1980: Public school teachers were forced to be union, and had union dues mandatorily taken from their paychecks.

You have the freedom NOT to take a union job (with union benefits). Where is the freedom for those who choose to have unions WITH collective bargaining powers? Walker took that freedom away.


Joe1980: Now, they can choose to be union, and those who wish to be, write the checks to the union themselves. Annually, they vote to recertify the unions. What's bad about this?

The entire point of that was to GET RID OF THE UNIONS. ALEC has been pushing that legislation in state after state.


You have heard of ALEC?
Are you ok with corporate cabals outside of Wisconsin writing corporate-friendly laws and pushing them through?

ALEC attacks on Unions across the USA


Joe1980: WEAC, the teacher's union, used collective bargaining to require that all school districts use the healthcare that is provided by WEAC themselves. WEAC has been charging the districts (taxpayers) around double the cost of what the healthcare would cost otherwise, and pocketing the money. We know this because now the districts can choose, and have saved MASSIVE money, while providing the same coverage. What's bad about this?

WEAC is the Wisconsin Education Association Council.

WEA Trust that is a non-profit trust that is a separate entity from WEAC, with entirely separate governance.

There NO requirement that School Boards purchase health care from WEA Trust. WEA Trust must bid competitively to keep their clients, and only one-third of all public school employees were covered by WEA Trust.


Joe1980: WEAC had collectively bargained teacher tenure, basing employment on senority, not teacher skill. This is now gone, making job security be based on how good a teacher is, not how long they've been around. What's so bad about this?

Dockside already answered this: "I know there are poor teachers. But they are in the minority. To destroy the system because of them will ultimately hurt all students, not just students of poor teachers in one subject."

"Yeah, the question of how to determine who is a good teacher is a tough one. I know, however, that allowing adminisstrators to make that determination won't work and kids will end up being on the short end of the stick. "


These are standard right-wing talking points that have been refuted again and again and again.

School districts have ALWAYS had to balance their budgets, there is nothing new with the current year.

Walker cut $1.6 BILLION from Wisconsin's public schools, and the cuts have been devastating, around 4,000 jobs were lost this year. Besides the loss of experienced teachers, younger people are reluctant to enter the education field.

Walker gave $2.1 BILLION in tax cuts to wealthy and corporations over the next decade. In case after case, this was pay-to-play and cronyism.

Which brings us to that other Walker thread of Woes.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

So did Walker cut taxes because he had already cut 1.6 billion or did he have to cut 1.6 billion in education because he gave the tax cuts?

In orders, which came first?


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

  • Posted by lenam Fitzwalkerstan (My Page) on
    Wed, Feb 8, 12 at 18:11

As you might expect, it is a tangled web.

Walker started cutting taxes for Corporations when he called a special session Jan 3, 2011:
Special Session AB 7: $67 Million tax cuts to Corporations
and
Executive Budget Bill AB 40: $83 Million tax cuts to Corporations

which set up the deficit for his phony "BUDGET CRISIS" and lead to his "BUDGET REPAIR BILL" in February 2011.

More tax cuts and corporate giveaways came during the 2011.

The State Budget, signed June 20, 2011 had $800 Million in cuts to Wisconsin education over the next two years.

Here is a link that might be useful: More details here


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Correction

  • Posted by lenam Fitzwalkerstan (My Page) on
    Wed, Feb 8, 12 at 18:13

The State Budget, signed June 20, 2011 had $800 Million in cuts to Wisconsin education FOR EACH of the next two years = $1.6 Billion.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

You got lousy benefits. That is not right, but if you had a union, you could get better benefits

Lets see the facts that you found on MY benefits. I need some links or something, because I have to know who other than me and my employer has that information. How do you know I'm not a union employee?

They were already paying 100% of their pension and health insurance costs

No, their employers were, and their employers are the taxpayers. I'm gonna need to see a copy of a pay stub that shows how much was TAKEN OUT of an employee's hourly pay. If they get payed $25 an hour, how much of that is subtracted for their benefits?

You have the freedom NOT to take a union job

Which public school district allowed teachers to be non-union?

Where is the freedom for those who choose to have unions WITH collective bargaining powers

There is no secret that most school board members are former teachers, or are related to teachers. The school boards get to vote for the contracts that the union bargained for, which dictates what the taxpayers of the district have to pay for. How can the taxpayers get a fair shake when the unions are bargaining with people who are on their side? It has been common practice that unions go into contract meetings and say what they want, and the school boards say "ok". That is NOT bargaining, that is dictating.

The entire point of that was to GET RID OF THE UNIONS. ALEC has been pushing that legislation in state after state.

There is no BAN on unions. If the union members are so strong, they will stick together right? Why whould you be worried, unless of course you feel like maybe the members aren't so strong?

There NO requirement that School Boards purchase health care from WEA Trust

This is a flat out lie. It is a FACT that school districts were required to take the WEA trust healthcare. It all depended on which district it was. WEAC, like you said, means Wisconsin Educators Association Council, and WEA Trust means Wisconsin Educators Association Trust. Are you trying to say that they are not related? If you think people will buy that, you REALLY must think everyone is dumb. Also, members of the boards AND administrators were taking these plans, so why would they want to get rid of them?

You're the king of links and copy & pasted aticles, so go to the one I provided below. It will give you ALL the facts on Wisconsin school spending.

Here is a link that might be useful: Facts on School Spending


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Re: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

  • Posted by lenam Fitzwalkerstan (My Page) on
    Wed, Feb 8, 12 at 18:46

Most of us get no pensions,

Who is this 'us' then?

No, their employers were, and their employers are the taxpayers.

It is called deferred benefits -- it is part of the pay. They EARNED that pay - all of it. Why is this so difficult?

Which public school district allowed teachers to be non-union?

There are plenty of other jobs.

It is a FACT that school districts were required to take the WEA trust healthcare.

This is a flat out lie. There is NO requirement that School Boards purchase health care from WEA Trust. WEA Trust must bid competitively to keep their clients, and only one-third of all public school employees were covered by WEA Trust.

There is no BAN on unions.

There is a ban on everything that makes a union a union.


Uh, the MacIver Institute is a pro-corporate front group with many ties to the Koch Bros. Mark Block, the Wisconsin Director of the Koch's Americans For Prosperity is on their Bd of Directors, and two other directors David Fettig & Fred Luber are also on the AFP board.

You might want to cite another source.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

"There is no secret that most school board members are former teachers, or are related to teachers."

Do you have any facts to back that up? Most school board members that I have dealt with are parents or community leaders.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

What a load of BS, falsehoods and outright lies--from the very beginning of this thread. Rightwinger Clownhall hack Olson, now there is a "reliable source".

First of, Wisconsin doesn't have a budget deficit.

Note how the fake "budget crisis" keeps getting ignored.

Again, Union busting and trying to steal the pension funds, based on nothing but lies.

The FBI will take Walker out before he can complete this task.


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RE:... Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

And Michael, what makes you think I would give anyone a pass?


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

First of, Wisconsin doesn't have a budget deficit.

You're right, it doesn't anymore. Walker fixed it!

Maddie, yet another useless post. You are part of the loony fringe group that really thinks there wasn't a deficit. You truly believe money grows on trees don't you?

It's the same old crap with you lefties. No deficits, Koch brothers, FBI, union busting, big corporations, blah blah blah. Get some new arguements already. This thread has now gotten repetitive on all of our parts, and is no longer worth the time. I'll tell you this though, you WILL find out pretty soon, that you are wrong. The people of Wisconsin have seen the light, and will vote to keep Walker as our governer. It has now boiled down to the people of Wisconsin versus the public employees and their big union bosses. The more and more the teachers and unions blab, the more the people shake their heads in disbelief. But, when Walker wins, I'm sure you'll be here to tell us all how crooked it is, and that the Koch brothers somehow payed to have everything rigged.


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RE: ...Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Oh I'm sure you'll see to that.

Your tactic might work on foxnews, but not here.


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Mark Block, Mark Block...

  • Posted by lenam Fitzwalkerstan (My Page) on
    Wed, Feb 8, 12 at 20:25

Oh yeah - Mark Block was the guy smoking a cigarette in that Herman Cain campaign ad, when he was Cain's chief of staff.

Block settled a lawsuit in 2001 for $15,000 and was prohibited from any political work for three years after illegally coordinating the election of a Supreme Court Justice with an outside group.

Then while working for the AFP he was involved with vote caging -- in black and college student neighborhoods the AFP sent out letters with "do not forward" on it. If that mail bounced, a letter would be used to block its recipient from voting with anything but a provisional ballot.

That Mark Block.


Ooo but teachers... teachers are scary!


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Well, I am going to wrap it up here with some REAL facts we can all agree on.

1. We disagree on a lot.
2. Nothing we say will convince the other side of anything.
3. Any source we link to will be unacceptable to the other side.
4. Politics are VERY polarized these days.

So, with that said, I think we are all wasting our time bickering, when nothing we say will sway eachother. It's clear that no arguements will be won, because any facts we provide are unacceptable to the other side. I guess we will just have to see how things play out, because I've got better things to do then bicker.


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Huntsman's girls' parody

  • Posted by lenam Fitzwalkerstan (My Page) on
    Wed, Feb 8, 12 at 21:23

Here is a link that might be useful: Cain Parodies


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

The people of Wisconsin have seen the light, and will vote to keep Walker as our governer.

He's indictment TOAST.

-Ron-


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Education Action Group

  • Posted by lenam Fitzwalkerstan (My Page) on
    Wed, Feb 8, 12 at 21:46

Thanks for the tip about Kyle Olson Maddie, I didn't know about his Muskegon-based right wing attack group "Education Action Group".

Kyle Olson has roots in attacking ACORN, and was trying to be the next James O'Keefe. He lied to sociologist Frances Fox Piven to get an interview...

"Olson has branched out beyond the conservative GOP mainstream. He's joined the lunatic fringe, using his camera and computer to sniff out the left-wing Marxist conspiracy."

Here is a link that might be useful: Source


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Late in the evening, hear the train blow

  • Posted by lenam Fitzwalkerstan (My Page) on
    Wed, Feb 8, 12 at 21:55

I've seen it suggested that Governor Doe be assigned a bed in Sturtevant Correctional Center so he can hear the Amtrak trains on the Hiawatha line for 10-14 years.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Well now, Joe1980-the-Electrician has a full grasp of pro-Walker talking points and abundant time to post lengthy point-counterpoints. His grasp of the issues verges on obsessive or professional.

Joe, I have no interest in prolonging our collective agony by putting up longer posts, knowing from experience that doing so tends to make viewers skip off to new threads. So I'll not mend my errant posting ways.


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Meta-Analysis time

  • Posted by lenam Fitzwalkerstan (My Page) on
    Thu, Feb 9, 12 at 8:55

Marshall, I share your suspicions.


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The Corps giveth & the Corps. taketh away

  • Posted by lenam Fitzwalkerstan (My Page) on
    Fri, Feb 10, 12 at 9:31

With a little help from their GOTP friends.

A $26 Million chunk of the mortgage settlement going to Wisconsin will be used to offset the currently unbalanced state budget left by corporate tax cuts.

Never mind the hemorrhaging in Milwaukee.

"In the past, Walker has been sharply critical of using so-called "one-time" money from legal settlements to balance the state budget."

But IOKIYAR.

Here is a link that might be useful: Source


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin


Wait!

There is a deficit? Weren't we told Walker fixed the deficit?

Going from a 200 odd million budget surplus (2011) to a 100 million budget deficit in just 9 months?

Where's that money?


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Those Settlement funds should be frozen until there is a Wisconson State court Order directing the State officials to place these moneys into a trust for the express purposes stated in the global Settlement Agreement between the mortgage companies and the States.

Walker may be acting illegally or at minimum, he may be violating his fiduciary duties as Governor by commingling settlement funds that were specifically designated for homeowners who qualified under the guidelines provided in the agreement.

The ACLU should investigate this and have their staff research the law to determine what can be done to stop Governor Huckleberry Hound from misappropriating and commingling the funds of a Court settlement.


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Redistricting Maps - Intimidation unveiled!

  • Posted by lenam Fitzwalkerstan (My Page) on
    Sun, Feb 12, 12 at 12:59

Just when I thought my stomach was done churning...

Madison -- Alarming details have come to light in recent days about the events surrounding the new district maps in Wisconsin. The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel was the first to uncover memos containing the details of the secret pledges taken by Republican Lawmakers. The unusual practice of signing such a pledge has come under scrutiny. At issue is why lawmakers were required to sign these secrecy agreements and at the same time, ignore public sentiment on the matter...

...an unidentified lawmaker has come forward and explained that he was intimidated into signing the legal agreement. ...lawmakers were brought in one by one and shown two different maps, one that would be favorable to them and another not so favorable. The unidentified legislator explained that he was told if he failed to support the passage of the redistricting bill, the unfavorable version would become law...

With these new revelations, it is imperative that all Republican lawmakers who experienced this intimidation tactic when signing the secrecy agreement come forward and fully disclose to the citizens of Wisconsin who was behind this plot to desecrate democracy.

Here is a link that might be useful: Source


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

How Machievelian! More means by way of rigging future elections: sign up a secret cabal of legislative supporters and uncover real and potential resisters to the New State Order.

I suspect the wally world of Fox viewers and listeners will hear other stories, especially union thugs among the teachers.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Here's an interesting story:

But as public employees were agreeing to every fiscal cut Governor Walker wanted to make with no opposition whatsoever because they "wanted to share the sacrifice", Scott Fitzgerald was going crazy with his Per Diem. According to a story from the Wisconsin State Journal, Scott Fitzgerald collected the most per diem money out of any legislator at $18,128 in 2011. The Second most expensive was a tie between Assembly Representative Peter Barca (D- Minority Leader), Representative Scott Suder (R- Majority Leader), and Representative Robin Vos (R- State Chair of ALEC) at $13,464. And third place goes to Scott Fitzgerald�s Brother, Representative Jeff Fitzgerald (R-Speaker) at $13,200. This is not alarming because of the dollar amounts; this is alarming because Scott Fitzgerald, according to Google Maps, lives only about an hour from the Capitol. Per diems were meant for people who could not afford to commute because their home is hours away. In Scott�s case he managed to spend more money than anyone else, living a distance from work that many travel daily.

-Ron-


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A synopsis from Cops4Labor

  • Posted by lenam Fitzwalkerstan (My Page) on
    Mon, Feb 13, 12 at 9:57

I missed this: RNC Chair Reince Priebus is a partner at the law firm Michael Best & Friedrich, the ones that drew up that 'loyalty oath' over secret redistricting, and basically enforced the WI GOTP blackmail of their own.


Make no mistake, this is no longer about a policy debate. It is now simply a debate about ethics. A government which has lost the trust of its citizens is not long for power. In one short year, Wisconsin has gone from being a state renowned for open and clean government to one that is shabby and nefarious. This discussion has been done by many others before me, but not everyone has the same sources of information. As such, I feel compelled to examine what has happened in the short and tumultuous life of the Walker administration and the legislators that support him.

[...]

From there, Walker's inner circle, both from his campaign organization and his county executive office staff, utterly unraveled. So far, six of Walker's closest allies and confidants have been arrested and charged with felonies. At least one of them is talking. Let me ask you, how many of your close friends have committed felonies on your behalf? Here is a description of the cast of characters, with more likely to come...

Here is a link that might be useful: State of Disgrace


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Before my Dad retired, he spent a couple years representing the Colorado State Workers Association before the mandatory arbitration board. So I got a glimpse into what actually transpires, on a day to day basis, between the union and the state.

The state has laws governing retirement age, pension contributions, all that kind of stuff - but as always, there are situations that crop up in grey areas where the state may interpret the law one way, the union another, and so it goes to arbitration. This is the big reason to allow collective bargaining.

Then there are other instances where compassion can enter into the equation, say a Division of Wildlife officer who reached the mandatory retirement age, worked 24 years and 8 months, but is 4 months shy of obtaining a full pension - try to let him work the additional 4 months. Sometimes that works, sometimes not.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

  • Posted by lenam Fitzwalkerstan (My Page) on
    Mon, Feb 13, 12 at 10:28

If he had "Personal Responsibility" he would have known to start his job 4 months earlier.


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yeabut

the reason he didn't was because he was fighting in the Korean War.

/ greedy unions.


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Shifting the blame

  • Posted by lenam Fitzwalkerstan (My Page) on
    Mon, Feb 13, 12 at 12:04

In other words, his parents are to blame for not having him 4 months earlier.

Typical generational entitlement cycle.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Lenam, do you know of anyone who signed Scott Fitzgerald's recall petition that received one of his postcards. I read that Scott Fitzgerald sent out postcards to all of those who signed his recall petition.

I just wanted to know if this is true and if it is, what was stated on the postcard.

Thanks.

-Ron-


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RE2: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

I actually did track down what was written on those postcards.

"Dear 13th Senate District Resident,

We are sending this postcard to inform you that your name has shown up on a recall petition against Senator Scott Fitzgerald. We have discovered a large number of questionable signatures through our initial inspection of recall petitions, so we wanted to ensure that you did in fact sign the petition, and that your signature was not added mistakenly or fraudulently. If you DID NOT sign a recall petition against Scott Fitzgerald between the dates of November 15, 2011 and January 14, 2012 please contact us immediately at (608) 520-0745, or email us at contact@votefitzgerald.com.

Thank you,

Scott Fitzgerald for Senate Campaign Team

Paid for Committee to Elect a Republican Senate, Scott Fitzgerald, Treasurer"

-Ron-


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

That reads like "we know you did it and now we have your name ....".


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

  • Posted by lenam Fitzwalkerstan (My Page) on
    Mon, Feb 13, 12 at 14:02

Ron,
I don't know of anyone who received those cards, but I am not in Fitz's district.

Pretty clear intimidation. I wonder how many people will fraudulently insist they did not sign once the info is made public.


Notice which GOTP members did NOT sign secrecy oaths? Hint: No sense blackmailing the blackmailer.

(Oh, and Kapanke knew he was toast).


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

That reads like "we know you did it and now we have your name ....".

Same to me. But you know...there's an e-mail address and a phone number in that message. I think they made a big mistake doing that.

-Ron-


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Is this form of "voter caging" legal in Wisconsin? The reason I ask...someone else on another forum asked this question.

-Ron-


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

  • Posted by lenam Fitzwalkerstan (My Page) on
    Mon, Feb 13, 12 at 16:31

Voter intimidation is illegal under Federal law (Voter Rights Act) but I don't know about anything specific to Wisc.

Here is a link that might be useful: Vote Caging and the Attorney General


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

I think the point of the cards is to inform anyone who may NOT have signed it, that their name is on a petition. There have been a lot of reports of people's names being found who didn't sign any recall petitions. One guy's brother apparently signed him up 4 times. I'm not gonna argue the reasoning, but imagine if you lived in a district where a democrat was being recalled, and you got a postcard saying you signed a recall petition. I suspect you'd be mad that someone signed your name, and be happy you were informed.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Sounds like a lot of expense to do that. Walker must be nervous.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Now what about Walker's deficit? What about him, and you, lying about how there wasn't a deficit?


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

I agree. The first thing that came to my mind is the wasted money, but, it was Fitzgerald's own money, so whatever. The Walker one is seperate though, and I suspect they won't bother with postcards. Although the petitions are filled with fraud, I believe there will be enough to force a very expensive recall election.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Mon, Feb 13, 12 at 18:14

"filled with fraud"

....you wish (^_^)


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

It actually is, and I know this for a fact because I have been working on recall petition data entry for weeks now. You may want to deny it, but when you find that "E.T." lives in Milwaukee, with 9 other people at the same address, it's hard to deny it. Also, "Scooby Doo" and "Those Meddling Kids" live here too. There is a lot of examples of fraud in the petitions, and if you'd like to see, they are public record, even for people in different states who like to poke around here in Wisconsin.


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RE: ...Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Now what about that deficit?


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Maddie, I'm not wasting my time with you. I added a simple little comment about the post cards, and you start the inflammatory comments, calling me a lier. I've cleaned up my postings, and stopped with any inflammatory stuff, but you just keep trying. I have no desire to converse with you.


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RE: ...Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin


That's not how it works in the real world.

Posted by Joe1980 WI 4 (My Page) on
Wed, Feb 8, 12 at 19:40

First of, Wisconsin doesn't have a budget deficit.

You're right, it doesn't anymore. Walker fixed it!

Now what about Walker, and you, lying about the deficit?


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

This isn't the real world, it's the internet. I have better things to do.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and W isconsin.....

Bailing when caught lying. Par for the course.

Gotta love it.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Get a life.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Mon, Feb 13, 12 at 20:01

Well I did find this, looks like the GAB is doing their job to me.

Here is a link that might be useful: Checking it Twice


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

I went on facebook and found the Tim Suckow who lives in Watertown, WI. He signed the petition to recall Scott Fitzgerald and now he is the brunt of Scott Fitzgerald's supporters' jokes. Scott has him as one of his challenges and refers to his name as Timothy Sucker. Easy enough to verify like I did but also easy enough to throw in the
'Mickey Mouse' bin as Scott Fitzgerald and his supporters have done. Rather disgusting if you ask me.

-Ron-


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

m@h seems especially sensitive about truthfulness, note her post above calling a Wisconsin resident a liar. I want to introduce m@h to a popular phrase we have in the US: "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones".
Some here may remember last year when I caught m@h with her panties down! She made the statement that US troops were guarding pipelines in Afghanistan. When I challenged
her she responded with dated, useless references to agreements which never materialized. m@h knows that when something false is repeated enough it attains urban myth status.
Is it possible that living in all that artic cold above the border could cause one to stew & fret and dream up urban myths? All I know is that the unchallenged queen of the cheap shots rarely has a post worthy of a response.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Au contraire. We caught you 3 times, and you are still lying.

Those tactics don't work outside of the wingnut world.

Now what about the deficit? And Walker stealing people's money?


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

All I know is that the unchallenged queen of the cheap shots rarely has a post worthy of a response.

*

I'm still waiting for proof that Mitt Romney is a "tax dodger."

Par for the course, indeed.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

I've challenged maddie's linked materials in the past without layering on the current wave of in-house partisan rancor. Worked pretty well in revealing the weaknesses of the methodology or biasness.

Carry on...I'll wait for the main event which will be about the nefarious activities of those holding the real power in Wisconsin...something about a Republican-controlled State government...


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Is this incorrect?

"Over the past six months, Wisconsin has been nothing short of a miracle. Newly elected Governor Scott Walker and the Republicans in the majority in Madison got just about everything they wanted during the past legislative session, and a state facing a projected $3 billion budget shortfall with no end in sight now has a projected $300 million budget surplus. The amazing successes in Wisconsin have emboldened the legislatures and political leaders of other states, who have seen the wonders resulting from a little political backbone and fiscal common sense."

Here is a link that might be useful: link


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

I don't know if that is right, but in reading the rest of the article that you linked, I'd say that is a rather slanted written perspective. I.e., everything that Walker does is rosy and everything thing against Walker is horrible.

As for maddie, in general I take her word over others as I have found her postings to be generally on target.

Here is a quote from a Wisconsin paper:

Madison - Gov. Scott Walker's administration has touted for months its efforts to balance the state budget, but now it also has acknowledged a significant way in which the budget isn't balanced.

To keep the possibility alive of making further cuts to state health programs, the Walker administration quietly certified to the federal government on Dec. 29 that the state had a deficit.

Federal law allows the state to drop tens of thousands of adults to save money on health care costs if the state can show it has a deficit. Walker has said he wants to cut health care spending in other ways, but hasn't ruled out dropping those 53,000 adults if the other methods aren't approved by the federal government.

To keep that option alive, state Administration Secretary Mike Huebsch wrote in a December letter to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services that the state would have an undisclosed deficit from Jan. 1 of this year through June 30, 2013.

"It's nothing more than what we've been saying all along," Walker spokesman Cullen Werwie said.

How can the Walker administration say that the 2011-'13 state budget is both balanced and in deficit?

In June, Walker and Republican lawmakers passed a balanced budget according to the measure that is always used for state budgets - cash accounting. That means essentially that the state will have cash left in its main account - an estimated balance of $68 million - when the budget ends on June 30, 2013.

That's the measure that state officials use for budgets and the one Walker has repeatedly touted in statements when he says he eliminated a $3 billion budget deficit on a cash accounting basis.

But the state's accounting method falls well short of those used by publicly traded companies. Those "generally accepted accounting principles" count not just whether the state has cash on hand but also whether it has made promises to pay money that it can't back out on.

For example, a consumer may have money in his or her bank account, but if a looming credit card bill is even larger, then he or she would have a deficit under that method of accounting. This so-called GAAP deficit isn't new to the Walker administration - it goes back years in state government to past governors such as Democrat Jim Doyle who also have said they balanced the budget on a cash basis while the GAAP deficit remained.

Werwie said the administration already had acknowledged that it had a GAAP deficit in state financial documents that estimate it at $3 billion for this fiscal year and next fiscal year.

Rep. Sandy Pasch (D-Whitefish Bay) said Walker's different statements on the budget amounted to financial doublespeak.

"On one hand, he claims he balanced the budget when he's raising money from special interests - on the other hand, he claims we still have a $3 billion hole when he's looking to drop health care for Wisconsinites when they need it most," Pasch said in a statement.

So, what do you think, mrskjun?

Here is a link that might be useful: source


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RE: Pajama Party at the Pajama Media

You'll have to ask the Conservative Teacher whose pop-up ad appeared with opening of your link. Whether the numbers cited are correct or not, I leave to our Wisconsin posters to evaluate. I've never heard of Pajama Media over whose byline the linked article was issued. Nor are there any "independent" sources cited for the numbers.

You can figure out the value of this article's truthiness: the peanut gallery cheering on our side.


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Lies and lying liars

  • Posted by lenam Fitzwalkerstan (My Page) on
    Tue, Feb 14, 12 at 9:10

NewMediaJournal = BasicsProject.org = America's Truth Forum (formerly People's Truth Forum).

America's Truth Forum (ATF), dating from December 2005, formerly called the People's Truth Forum (PTF), which dated from April 2005, was founded by Jeff Epstein.

Epstein formerly served as public relations director for Vietnam Vets for the Truth, the anti-John Kerry group which emerged for the 2004 presidential election.

Here is a link that might be useful: SourceWatch


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RE: \\\Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

my previous post was directed at mrskjun, not esh. Thanks, esh, for the due dilligence. I'm off to work. My foreman is out with work-related disability and I must cover for him.


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PJ Media

  • Posted by lenam Fitzwalkerstan (My Page) on
    Tue, Feb 14, 12 at 9:16

"Pajamas Media is a media company that uses the Internet to present and discuss conservative opinions.

"Founded in 2004 by a network primarily, but not exclusively, made up of conservatives and libertarians led by mystery writer, screenwriter, and blogger Roger L. Simon, and until 2007, Charles Johnson of Little Green Footballs, it was originally intended as a forum to present blogs and blog advertising "with the intention of... aggregating blogs to increase corporate advertising and creating our own professional news service." On March 31, 2009, Pajamas Media discontinued its advertising network of blogs, with the exception of those inside of its primary Website, in favor of establishing its own multimedia news and opinion outlets branching out from the original Pajamas Media.com. In 2007, PJM Political, an hour-long satellite radio show, was launched airing first on XM Radio and then on Sirius-XM. In 2008 Pajamas Media launched an internet TV initiative called PJTV.com."

Here is a link that might be useful: Wikipedia


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Yup Fitzgerald is Petition Caging with typos

  • Posted by lenam Fitzwalkerstan (My Page) on
    Tue, Feb 14, 12 at 10:21

Fitzgerald campaign submits bizarre, inaccurate signature challenges

Specifically, the [Fitzgerald] campaign is asking that a number of signatures be struck because postcards sent to those addresses were returned by the U.S. Postal Service as undeliverable. However, checking the addresses on the postcards against those on the petitions shows that the Fitzgerald campaign, either purposefully or accidently, misaddressed numerous postcards, making it likely they would be returned.

The very first challenged address (pg. 8) reveals three glaring mistakes made by the campaign. The postcard it sent out was addressed to "Arnold Sodill" of W857 Eipong Terrace, Wisconsin, with no municipality or zip code listed. In fact, the actual petition was signed by "Arnold Wodill" of W8571 Lake George Terrace, Beaver Dam, Wisconsin...

Here is a link that might be useful: Source


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

My question was...is the article correct? Seems to be two answers to the question.

esh said..As for maddie, in general I take her word over others as I have found her postings to be generally on target.
esh, do you believe all conservatives are liars, members of the moron demographic, part of the reptilian mindset, morons?
Guess I thought better of you.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

  • Posted by lenam Fitzwalkerstan (My Page) on
    Tue, Feb 14, 12 at 11:23

My question was...is the article correct?

No.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

esh, do you believe all conservatives are liars, members of the moron demographic, part of the reptilian mindset, morons?

Why no indeed. Why would you think that? Just because I said that I have found her postings to be generally on target?

And yes, mrskjun, I think now that your article is incorrect in that it is misleading.


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Three WI GOP Lawmakers bail

  • Posted by lenam Fitzwalkerstan (My Page) on
    Tue, Feb 14, 12 at 11:46

MADISON, Wis. (AP) -- Three Republican legislators say they won't seek re-election to the state Assembly this fall.

Reps. Dan Meyer of Eagle River, Richard Spanbauer of Oshkosh and Michelle Litjens of Vinland say they're done.

Meyer has served in the Assembly since 2000. He says 12 years is a good term limit to impose on himself.

Spanbauer has served since 2008. He told the Oshkosh Northwestern newspaper he's tired of lawmakers who care more about politics than people.

Litjens was elected in 2010. She says she has helped turn the state around and now wants to spend more time with her family.

Here is a link that might be useful: Source


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

"The disgusting sneer says it all."

Hay


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

My friend from Wisconsin just sent me an email saying *now you'll understand* ~ well, I don't ~

I definitely side with unions making a better life for teachers ~ but then she sends me something like this & I just don't know how to respond.

She is a Republican who is continuously sending *propaganda* even though I have never ONCE sent her anything similar ~ and she knows it really ticks me off & if I didn't love her as a friend so much I'd just dump her!(grin)

anyway, here is my question: Is the Washington Examiner legit? I don't know how to create a link but this was their http://washingtonexaminer.com/politics/2011/07Wisconsin-schools-buck-union-cut-health-costs


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Dejavu

  • Posted by lenam Fitzwalkerstan (My Page) on
    Tue, Feb 14, 12 at 13:06

Washington Examiner is right wing:

"The Examiner's editorial page is heavily conservative; it is headed by Mark Tapscott, with American Spectator senior editor Quin Hillyer serving as its associate editor. The paper's national political coverage, which also appears in Examiner papers in Baltimore and San Francisco, was previously headed by Bill Sammon, a former Washington Times reporter who has written several books praising George W. Bush. (Sammon is now the deputy managing editor for Fox News Channel's Washington bureau.) Chris Stirewalt, who has been described as "a true conservative voice", is the Examiner's political editor. Mary Katherine Ham, former managing editor of the conservative Townhall.com, briefly served as the Examiner's online editor for a few months in 2008 before joining the Weekly Standard. Matthew Sheffield, executive editor of the Media Research Center blog NewsBusters, is in charge of the Examiner's website. Byron York, formerly of National Review, joined the paper in February 2009."

Source Watch


We discussed the Hartland case in September: I need your expert help

"But [the Arrowhead United Teachers Organization (AUTO)], the co-op teachers union that represents teachers from every Arrowhead feeder school and the high school, stopped the switch in its tracks, according to district officials. Any contractual changes have to be approved by the greater AUTO Executive Board, and even though, as Schilling put it, "100 percent of our teachers endorsed it," AUTO's leadership said no.

[...]

"In response, Samuel Froiland, who advises AUTO on behalf of Cedar Lake United Educators, said that it was Schilling and Hartland-Lakeside that rejected a proposal from AUTO that would have allowed for the insurance change.

"AUTO would allow the district to implement this health insurance change effective July 1, and then between now and July 1, parties would attempt to negotiate the terms of an employer handbook, and then in the event that by July 1 that parties would be unable to reach an agreement on an employee handbook that the contract would be extended. But it allowed the parties to negotiate, in good faith, all of the terms, not just one," Froiland said.

Froiland said that the district's unwillingness to discuss the entire contract was one of the key differences between Hartland-Lakeside and the Lake Country School District, which extended its teachers contract on Tuesday morning with a higher-deductible insurance plan from WEA. [...]

"We didn't prevent the district from making the change. We gave them an opportunity to make the change, and they didn't want to negotiate other items," he said.

Here is a link that might be useful: Source


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Thanks Esh. I take your word over others, too.

Lena--which insurance company did they not switch too?


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

  • Posted by lenam Fitzwalkerstan (My Page) on
    Tue, Feb 14, 12 at 13:40

Good point: United Health Care

As in $102 Million Payout To United Healthcare CEO Stephen Hemsley Draws Outrage and former CEO William McGuire "agreed to reprice his personal stock options, cutting about $200 million in value from his staggering $1.78 billion haul."


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Must have been one of those right wing sites. Guess I should only link to Media Matters, that way I can get it directly from the White House.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

You mean there's a difference between the two?

;)


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Well, mrskjun, now that you're read more, what do YOU think of the article that you linked to?


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

I guess mrskjun hasn't come back to this thread ....


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

This is getting rather repetetive, don't you think? Like I said above, it does not matter what anyone here says, the other side will NOT agree, PERIOD. The news that I and others who support Walker read and believe, will NEVER be acceptable to those on the left. It will ALWAYS be labeled as a slanted, right wing source. But, it's a two way street. I think the NY Times is not useful for anything but toilet paper, along with the Milwaukee Urinal Sentinal, and most of our local news broadcasts. With that said, I am done bothering with arguements and linking to any news sources. It's a waste of my time, and all of yours too. Let's be honest here, if I link to anything from the MacIver Institute, are those of you on the left even gonna read it? How about take it seriously? Probably not. On the same note, if you link to the NY Times, I probably won't even read it, let alone take it seriously.

This is political life in the US these days, especially Wisconsin. You are either with Walker, or you're not. Not too many people are undecided or neutral. My personal opinion is that the majority of people are with Walker, and he will win the recall. I know others disagree, but that's the beauty of our wonderful county right?

Mskjun, as I'm sure you're aware, the truth comes from whichever news source one chooses to believe. My radio and TV sources must be wrong though, because they have the best ratings.


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!RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

joe, we have pointed to data that says Wisconsin does have a deficit. You said Walker "fixed" that. We're just trying to see if you realize the sleight of hand that he pulled on everyone.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Wisconsin had a big deficit, and Walker fixed it. We now have a new, smaller one, due to decreased tax revenue, from what I've read. I heard of the new deficit late last week, AFTER I posted in reference to Walker fixing the previous one, that Jim Doyle left.

The funny thing is, I was being told, aggressively mind you, that the deficit was phony, and that Wisconsin had a surplus. Now all of the sudden, we have a deficit. Imagine that! When Walker says he is going to fix a $3.6 billion budget deficit that he inherited, the left says we don't have a deficit. Now, we are coming up $143.2 million short, due to decreased tax revenue from a slow economy, and you are quick to jump on that. It never ends, and nothing Scott Walker does will ever be ok with you. It'll always be a "sleight of hand" or "giving money to greedy rich corporations". This is why I am not really investing much into this thread anymore; it's a lost cause.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

You are right joe, that was a very good description of Gov.Walker's budgetary flim-flam, going back to his Milwaukee days.:)


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

  • Posted by lenam Fitzwalkerstan (My Page) on
    Tue, Feb 14, 12 at 19:57

A person is welcome to their own opinion, but not their own facts. Curious how Walker supporters fear and ignore facts and information. Trying to avoid cognitive dissonance, perhaps.


Let's begin with why Walker would want to go on record with his letter to HHS claiming a deficit while, at the same time, campaigning on a message that tells a very different story.

Federal law allows a state to remove people from the state's Medicaid rolls only in the circumstance where the state can show that it is suffering deficits. As Walker is planning to make even more cuts to Wisconsin's health budgets' cuts he tells us he is attempting to accomplish without forcing people out of this critical health program -- the Governor wants to keep his options open. To do that, it was necessary for the Walker Administration to tell HHS that his state is running a deficit while attempting, at the same time, to convince voters of the precise opposite -- all so he can hold onto the opportunity to place more than 50,000 Wisconsinites in danger of losing their only access to health care.


Still, we are left to wonder whether Walker is lying to the people of Wisconsin or fibbing to the federal government? It pretty much has to be one or the other.

The answer is dependent on, of all things, accounting.

Esh linked to this info above.



There is really no logical way around the conclusion that Governor Walker has, at the very least, (a) broken an important campaign promise within months of making that promise, and (b) lied to either the people of Wisconsin or the government of the United States.

The good news is that Governor’s Walker's spokesman, Cullen Werwie, doesn't see a big deal here. He tells us that this is all "…nothing more than what we’ve been saying all along."

That's good enough for me. I mean, it's not like this is the Cullen Werwie who required a grant of immunity from prosecution before he would cooperate with prosecutors in the John Doe investigation into illegal electioneering that threatens to bring down the Walker Administration before we even get to the recall vote.

Oh wait... it seems that the governor's chief spokesman is the very same Cullen Werwie who required a grant of immunity to avoid prosecution.

Here is a link that might be useful: Forbes.com Will Gov. Scott Walker Ever Come Clean On Wisconsin's Budget Deficit?


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

You are right joe, that was a very good description of Gov.Walker's budgetary flim-flam, going back to his Milwaukee days.:)

There you have it. No matter the case, you will NEVER change your opinion. Me either.

Curious how Walker supporters fear and ignore facts and information

I could say the same of you. It depends what one believes are facts. Again, you'll never change your opinion, and neither will I. Thus, I am going back to other threads, and leaving this one for dead, as I have become rather bored by it.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

  • Posted by lenam Fitzwalkerstan (My Page) on
    Tue, Feb 14, 12 at 20:43

Facts are facts.

For one example, this is NOT a fact:

Joe1980: WEAC, the teacher's union, used collective bargaining to require that all school districts use the healthcare that is provided by WEAC themselves.

1) WEAC does not provide health insurance.
Therefore to say "healthcare is provided by WEAC" cannot possible be true.

2) Even assuming WEAC was intended to mean WEA Trust, since some (most) school districts do not have WEA Trust health insurance this is FALSE.


Choosing to believe a falsehood does not make it a fact. This basic logic is sadly missing among Walker supporters.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

lenam, I don't have the patience you have. Good job.

-Ron-


 o
RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Ok, now we're going back and picking out falsehoods? Here's one:

The unions came to the table and offered to take cuts, before Walker took away their collective bargaining rights

This is a falsehood, not a fact. The unions only did that AFTER they found out their collective bargaining really was going bye-bye. Look into MPS and the contracts they signed BEFORE Walker's reforms. They claim it's not about the money, that they'd gladly pay in if they can keep their bargaining. But, when MPS realized they screwed up and are going to be short money, they asked the union to make those contributions. Guess what, they voted no, and lots of teachers, low tenured ones, got layed off. This goes to show you that it IS about money. Ask those teachers who's own union buddies basically voted to lay them off, rather than contribute to their funds.

As for the above, I'll gladly admit that I worded that in such away that it is indeed not correct. Not ALL districts use WEA trust, only about 64% do. I stand corrected.

Here is one that is NOT a fact:

WEA Trust that is a non-profit trust that is a separate entity from WEAC, with entirely separate governance

WEA Trust was established by WEAC, and is very closely associated with it. They are worth $316 million, and have 12 administrators recieving compensation packages worth 6 figures per year. This comes from sources that you'll just say are BS anyway, so I'm not gonna bother with links. They have been ripping off many of the districts they service, but I think you know that. How come some, like Oshkosh, saved loads of money by switching to a different provider, while keeping the same coverage? How about Kaukauna, who was collectively bargained into using WEA Trust, and was being ripped off? Upon collective bargaining being tossed to the roadside ditch, WEA Trust magically says "we'll match the lowest bid", and POOF! Money saved! Doesn't sound like a non-profit to me. Sounds like racketeering.

Those are facts to me, but I am guessing you will argue that. It all depends which angle you choose to look at, and I choose straight on.

Let's look at a couple of Maddie's comments:

First of, Wisconsin doesn't have a budget deficit.

and then....

Now what about that deficit?

So which is it, do we have one or not? This is why I gave up on her. I also understand she doesn't live here, so she only "knows" what her chosen media sources tell her to know.


 o
RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

  • Posted by lenam Fitzwalkerstan (My Page) on
    Tue, Feb 14, 12 at 22:43

Lenam: The unions came to the table and offered to take cuts, before Walker took away their collective bargaining rights

Joe1980: This is a falsehood, not a fact.

Don't lie.

February 18, 2011: "Leaders of the state's biggest public worker unions said they would give in to the governor's demand for concessions on workers' benefits if Walker would give up his bid to repeal nearly all public union bargaining rights; Walker rejected that offer, saying government needed more flexibility in dealing with its employees; and the governor's address on the next two-year budget was delayed by a week." Source


WEA Trust that is a non-profit trust that is a separate entity from WEAC, with entirely separate governance.

How is that NOT a fact?

Provided EVIDENCE against that statement, not irrelevant attacks against WEA Trust.


 o
RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

I was reading through the responses to Scott Fitzgerald's challenges to his recall. It looks to me that Fitzgerald will be able to get the signatures down to the low 19k but that's about it. The biggest number of successful challenges were signatures that were out of district.

I can't see how he can escape a recall, no matter what he says. Most of the big numbers he was challenging were based on things the GAB already said they were going to accept.

-Ron-

Here is a link that might be useful: Responses to Scott Fitzgerald's Challenges


 o
RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

  • Posted by lenam Fitzwalkerstan (My Page) on
    Wed, Feb 15, 12 at 8:42

I'm no expert at legalese, but I thought that was a well-written response to Fitzgerald's challenges. No wonder he is having tantrums, and doubling down on selling off Wisconsin ASAP.


 o
RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Provided EVIDENCE against that statement, not irrelevant attacks against WEA Trust

Again, whatever source I provide, will, as usual, be called BS and not credible. That's how it works with you people. If you can actually stand there and say that WEA Trust has nothing to do with WEAC, you have serious problems. If you really believe that, I want you to say it outright. That way, I can officially consider you an absolute lier, and disregard everything you say from this point forward. To say WEA Trust is a seperate entity, even though it was created by WEAC, is absurd. Also, denying the fact that they were overcharging districts, thus RIPPING OFF TAXPAYERS, is also absurd, because you know it's true. You can sit and say "prove it", and if I link to a source that investigated it, you simply say that source is not credible. You need a new tactic, because this has gotten old really fast. You sound just like every other liberal I've ever met or heard on TV, denying the real facts, and making bogus excuses. There is nothing new or worthy in your arguements, just liberal rhetoric.

As for the Fitzgeral recall, I'm sure it will happen. He will easily win, just like the absolute blowout when he was elected. Sounds like a big waste of our time, and taxpayer money....as usual. As for the GAB, it is quite clear they are majorly biased left, and we ALL know that. Let's hear your denials on that, because I know they are coming. How do you feel about them saying that individuals can't challenge ANYTHING AT ALL. So if I find that someone put my name and address one it, I cannot challenge it? That is an absolute load of crap. If there was ever an effort to help a certain political party, this is it.

I also like how people are finding their neighbors AND their underaged children have signed petitions. But, guess what, they can't challenge them because the GAB says no.


 o
RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Haven't you heard, Joe? There is an ongoing war against the Republicans in control and the Democrats trying to reverse recent legislative history.


 o
RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

I also like how people are finding their neighbors AND their underaged children have signed petitions. But, guess what, they can't challenge them because the GAB says no.

The entire rant sounded goofy but this slammed the door and nailed it shut. What always makes me chuckle is that these guys always try to come across being reasonable and having sound logic. I'll try and debate with some if I feel there's a potential for reason, but then this...I don't even bother.

-Ron-


 o
Just Another Day in Fitzwalkerstan

  • Posted by lenam Fitzwalkerstan (My Page) on
    Thu, Feb 16, 12 at 9:01

WI GOTP Sen. Fitzgerald has been having a tough week. On Tuesday there was the hissy fit against Kathleen Falk, then Wednesday he up and dissolved the Mining Committee and sent a controversial (to say the least) Mining bill to the Joint Finance Committee:

Wisconsin State Senate Majority Leader (and subject of a recall effort) Scott Fitzgerald released a statement Wednesday afternoon which, by all accounts, has left his own party in political chaos. The Juneau Republican suddenly dissolved the Senate Select Committee on Mining Jobs, and informed the Republican Caucus that the Assembly version of the Mining Bill (AB426) would be taken up in the Joint Finance Committee on Friday; likely to be fast-tracked for a vote next Tuesday.

One of the significant differences in the Senate and Assembly versions of the bill were reportedly creating issues between GOP leadership and Wisconsin Manufacturers and Commerce (WMC). WMC not only holds the purse strings for many a GOP legislator, but have reported spending 386 hours lobbying for AB426. James Buchen, President of WMC, was recently reported as not favoring the Senate version of the bill. Gogebic Taconite was also resistant to the Senate version of the bill. Both WMC and Gogebic disliked the idea of “Contested Case Hearings” being restored in the Senate version of the bill. Contested Case Hearings would require public hearings, with “expert” testimony occurring under oath and subject to cross-examination. This factor, combined with more reasonable environmental consideration and potential for further public input in the Senate version, have raised the ire of WMC and Gogebic. Source


Tedious, but I am a lover of metanalysis.

Let's parse:

Joe1980: Again, whatever source I provide, will, as usual, be called BS and not credible.

FALSE

Joe1980: That's how it works with you people.

AD HOMINEM ATTACK

Joe1980: If you can actually stand there and say that WEA Trust has nothing to do with WEAC, you have serious problems.

FALSE.

Joe1980: If you really believe that, I want you to say it outright.

FALSE

Joe1980: That way, I can officially consider you an absolute lier, and disregard everything you say from this point forward.

AD HOMINEM ATTACK

Joe1980: To say WEA Trust is a seperate entity, even though it was created by WEAC, is absurd.

FALSE

Joe1980: Also, denying the fact that they were overcharging districts, thus RIPPING OFF TAXPAYERS, is also absurd, because you know it's true.

FALSE

Joe1980: You can sit and say "prove it", and if I link to a source that investigated it, you simply say that source is not credible.

AD HOMINEM ATTACK

Joe1980: You need a new tactic, because this has gotten old really fast.

AD HOMINEM ATTACK

Joe1980: You sound just like every other liberal I've ever met or heard on TV, denying the real facts, and making bogus excuses.

AD HOMINEM ATTACK

Joe1980: There is nothing new or worthy in your arguements, just liberal rhetoric.

AD HOMINEM ATTACK


Joe1980: As for the Fitzgeral recall, I'm sure it will happen.

A KERNEL OF TRUTH

Joe1980: He will easily win, just like the absolute blowout when he was elected.

UNKNOWN.

Joe1980: Sounds like a big waste of our time, and taxpayer money....as usual.

Democracy is not free.

Joe1980: As for the GAB, it is quite clear they are majorly biased left, and we ALL know that.

FALSE
GAB is bipartisan. Note that GAB did not throw out the recall petitions against Democratic senators last summer, even though Democrats presented them with enough disqualified petition signatures.

Joe1980: Let's hear your denials on that, because I know they are coming.

AD HOMINEM ATTACK

Joe1980: How do you feel about them saying that individuals can't challenge ANYTHING AT ALL.

FALSE You are welcome to contact the about-to-be recalled Senator.

Joe1980: So if I find that someone put my name and address one it, I cannot challenge it?

FALSE You are welcome to contact the about-to-be recalled Senator.

Joe1980: That is an absolute load of crap.

FALSE You are welcome to contact the about-to-be recalled Senator.

Joe1980: If there was ever an effort to help a certain political party, this is it.

FALSE GAB is bipartisan.

Joe1980: I also like how people are finding their neighbors AND their underaged children have signed petitions.

Are there enough to disqualify the petition? NO.

Joe1980: But, guess what, they can't challenge them because the GAB says no.

FALSE You are welcome to contact the about-to-be recalled Senator.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Given Joe1980-the-Electrician's deep involvement in defending against recall efforts, I can only conclude that Joe has been hired to resolve major electrical problems in the recall system.

My Irish side of the family once were in the plumbing, heating and electrical contracting and retail business. I don't recall much use of ad hominem attacks in the toolboxes of electricians.


 o
RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

So how does the process to vet petition signatures work in Michigan? Here, that role is taken by the state AG office, who go through and verify names, addresses, voter registration, etc to validate. I haven't heard anyone seriously accuse them of being politically biased one way or the other.


 o
RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

  • Posted by lenam Fitzwalkerstan (My Page) on
    Thu, Feb 16, 12 at 9:46

I think you mean Wisconsin:

The GAB [Government Accountability Board] is made up of six members who are all former state judges and who must be non-partisan. Source

The recall process is reasonably transparent. From the GAB:

2012 Recall Initiatives

"The Government Accountability Board staff is currently reviewing six recall petitions filed on January 17, 2012 against the Governor, Lieutenant Governor and four members of the State Senate. For information about the individual recall committees and officeholders, please see the table below.

"The Board has not yet ordered any recall elections to be held. Please check our calendar for upcoming special Board meetings at which elections may be ordered.

"The public can watch live streaming video of G.A.B. staff processing and reviewing recall petitions. Click here for the webcam.

"All recall petitions have now been scanned, and images of the pages have been posted to our website for public inspection.

"For updates on the recall process, read the Recall Blog."


Joe1980 neglected this information:

If You See Problems on Recall Petitions

You may contact the officeholder the recall petition was filed against if you:

Find your name on a recall petition you did not sign.
Find other possible irregularities.
Want to ensure that your name was not signed on a recall petition.

Wisconsin Statutes only permit the officeholder to file challenges to recall petitions.

Here is a link that might be useful: Recall Election Information


 o
RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Pre-caffene post, there Lenam =:-) Funny as well how all the specific information about the ongoing petition validation exercise is somehow public knowledge.

Or it could just be garbage propaganda, clearly if the recall election goes through, then it must be because of heavy union and librul interference int he vetting process.


 o
RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

  • Posted by lenam Fitzwalkerstan (My Page) on
    Thu, Feb 16, 12 at 10:44

LOL David, as a fellow resident of Flyoverland so I knew it was nothing intentional ;-)

The propaganda is curiouser and curiouser, and we know Walker supporters have gigatons of cash and love to astroturf.


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RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

Well, the truth is still the truth, whether you liers believe it or not. You can make up all the excuses in the world, but nobody is buying it. After Walker wins the recall, I look foward to your thread about how he cheated, and we're all so stupid. Your type are in the minority, yet you think everyone else is stupid. Did you ever wonder if maybe it's YOU? Thankfully, this thread has hit the max, and it'll be done, because I am bored with even trying to converse with people like you.

Marshall, your attempted personal attacks are lame. You gotta work on some better material.


 o
RE: Walker, the Unions, and Wisconsin

GO WALKER!


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