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Electric cars.

Posted by thegreatcob none (My Page) on
Wed, Feb 27, 13 at 20:06

there is simple reason there are no viable electric cars.
But you all may not want hear it but is simple.
for viable electric car to be common.
I has to out do a standard car.
price must be similar
range before refueling/recharge 400 miles
refuel/ recharge time 5 minutes
durable of motor or engine 150,000+
I wrote same info 7 years ago and it is still true.
Even if car go electric you still need something to charge them from.
Also big rigs and trains will still be most diesel for long time.
battery pack for electric car will only do 150 miles currently
recharge time still to long over an hour for full charge.
20-30 years still minimum. throwing money at it will not solve it. Science and technology take there own time not that of what you want them to be.

This post was edited by thegreatcob on Wed, Feb 27, 13 at 20:08


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Electric cars.

I think batteries are the biggest problem with electric cars. What do you do with them when they go bad? How eco- friendly are lithium ion batteries? I don't think the motors are a problem. And there are several viable electric cars on the market now. And at least in urban areas like San Francisco, they work well for many commuters.


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RE: Electric cars.

They will popular in area like delivery vehicle in city.


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RE: Electric cars.

Today Hyundai released an electric fuel cell vehicle. There's a nice pic and press release at the link. (Quote)

"Hyundai became today the first manufacturer to begin assembly-line production of zero-emissions, hydrogen-powered vehicles when a white Hyundai ix35 Fuel Cell vehicle rolled off the assembly line at the company’s Ulsan manufacturing facility.

The ix35 Fuel Cell vehicle is based on Hyundai’s popular ix35, C-segment SUV, known in North America as the Tucson."
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Also EEstor has been working on storing electric energy in a Super Capacitor .. some people think it's just a myth, there is a lot of discussion on the web .

Here is a link that might be useful: Hot off the press, New Hyundai fuel cell car


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RE: Electric cars.

We have Fuel Cell buses running in Berkeley right now. Saw one again today on my bike ride home.

Here's another quote about the Hyundai concerning distance and re-fueling. (Quote)

The ix35 Fuel Cell can be refueled with hydrogen in a few minutes. It accelerates from zero to 100 kilometer per hour (62 mph) in 12.5 seconds, has a top speed of 160 kilometer per hour (100 mph) and can travel 594 kilometers (369 miles) on before refueling.

The first ix35 Fuel Cell vehicle to roll off the assembly line is currently being shipped in order to be displayed at the 2013 Geneva Motor Show next week."
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Below is a link to one of many articles about Berkeley's Fuel Cell buses.

Here is a link that might be useful: Berkeley fuel cell bus article


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RE: Electric cars.

there is simple reason there are no viable electric cars.
Except that there are viable hybrids including the Volt.

I has to out do a standard car.
price must be similar
range before refueling/recharge 400 miles
refuel/ recharge time 5 minutes
durable of motor or engine 150,000+

This is ridiculous. All kinds of autos and trucks are sold that do not meet your criteria, have limited range, limited fuel economy, are priced sky high, and do not last 150,000 miles. You are probably driving one.

At this time, no one is suggesting that electric autos have to "out do a standard car", no one. It seems to me that this thread was intended primarily as a provocation based upon my comments in another thread. Nonetheless, let me disabuse you of some of your misconceptions about this technology and the need to advance it, although I am sure your mind has been made up for at least 7 years.

Regarding range and dependability, many hybrids like the Prius meet your criteria. The all electric drive Volt has UNLIMITED range just like any standard vehicle with access to gasoline stations alongside the roadways. This is accomplished with an on-board charger that uses a small gas engine. It is an elegant design and sensible approach to extending range until the technology advances.

Meanwhile, for most people who use their vehicle on a daily basis for short commutes, they can run on all electric and charge overnight. 4 hours on 240v AC brings the batteries up to full charge.

Secondly, electric motors are far more reliable than gasoline engines and have far fewer moving parts. The batteries are guaranteed for years and by that time, stronger batteries will no doubt be available. Now does that mean everyone should buy one? No, not any more than one should purchase ANY type of auto or truck or slam any auto or truck simply because it is not every man's vehicle.

So what is your reason to slam this technology and campaign for the oil companies? Let me guess, could it be the fact that you are one of the Obama haters and simply refuse to give him any credit for saving our auto industry and all of those jobs? If so, that is so lame, so ill-willed and so hateful. So what else might motivate you to come after the little Volt? Because it isn't for everyone yet?

Listen, I cannot help you if you not only fail to understand but refuse to understand why we, as a country, should be planning for, encouraging and even subsidizing this technology. Frankly, it is as clear as light why we need to begin planning for and building out out the infrastructure to support electric autos, smart building and smart appliances. It will takes years and Billions of dollars to do it and yes, our people could use all the jobs that will be created along the way.

What other new technology or product would you suggest that will employ people who have had their jobs obsoleted or outsourced? They could always sell used gasoline autos with 100K miles on them and tell people they have at least another 50K left in them..

Perhaps you are looking into the same crystal ball as bushworks. If that is the case you share a very clouded and short-sighted vision. And while you gaze into that murky ball, tell me what the Canadian landscape around Alberta will look like after 30 years of strip mining and boiling tar sands. Give us your prediction about how much our environment will be damaged by harvesting that tar sludge, pumping it all over the place, refining and burning it.

Finally, I wonder why people over 50 seem so concerned about what kind of cars people will be driving in 30 years. Those little scooters for the elderly are already electric so what difference does future auto technology make to them?

We need solutions to problems, not endless obstruction and more conservative right wing ideology. Republicans have only one vision, and that is looking into the rear view mirror with a smirk on their face.


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RE: Electric cars.

Gasoline powered vehicles are going the way of the dinosaur. The ever escalating price of gas, the pollutants and their continuing inefficiency are turning consumers towards other options. We just bought a hybrid to replace an SUV that not only got poor gas mileage but had very little power. I doubt that I'll ever buy another gas powered vehicle. There is also the satisfaction of moving away from the oil companies and their price fixing, consumer gouging tactics.


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RE: Electric cars.

The MIL - no hippy librul Obummerlover green tree hugger virnmintul - won't buy a gas vehicle ever again ever never.

Saving money on great gas mileage because the hybrid takes over is conservative.


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RE: Electric cars.

There is one little glitch. Affordability.

As the auto industry moves in the right direction, you're going to realize that the leaders won't be GM or Ford, it will be Honda, Hyundai, Toyota. I know....hard to swallow for some.

Anyway...look at the glitch.

Here is a link that might be useful: Out of reach


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RE: Electric cars.

My friend is thrilled with hers. She is leasing it.


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RE: Electric cars.

Leasing what? An electric car or a Hybrid car?

And good for Hyundai.

But...they will need to sharpen their pencil before anybody from HT buys one of the Hydrogen cars.

With prices per vehicle in the "upper $100,000s per car," the ix35�"which emits only water vapor as its exhaust�"is too expensive for general consumers right now, he says. The company hopes to bring the price of hydrogen cell cars down to about $50,000 by the time they're ready to sell to consumers

Oops...I meant to add one more thing.

If Hydrogen cars can get down to $35,000 to $40,000....we won't need to waste time on battery operated clunkers.

This post was edited by brushworks on Thu, Feb 28, 13 at 9:53


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RE: Electric cars.

I hate to mention it Brushworks but the majority of gas powered cars are also out of reach.. And they cost a lot more in fuel costs. So a reasonable, rational person might not see any glitch at all in buying an electric or hybrid car.

And we can all breathe better when they do. Leading the way here in the USA may also help in other countries, like China. We're already breathing some of their air here in California. Encouraging electric vehicles seems like a wise choice.


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RE: Electric cars.

It is the Nissan Leaf that she is leasing.


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RE: Electric cars.

Financing the cheapest new gas powered car, plus tax, tags, registration, inspection, insurance, maintenance, non covered repairs etc is out of reach of many buyers, or they refuse to spend so much money on a depreciating asset.

This is why I do so well buying, selling and repairing used cars, trucks, SUVs, motorcycles, boats, etc.


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RE: Electric cars.

alexr,

What electric car are you talking about? Or are you calling a Hybrid an electric car?

I'm talking about Hybrid cars and regular cars being out of price range.

So, you're saying if a family can't afford the $25,000 civic Hybrid , they should buy the $45,000 volt?


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RE: Electric cars.

In Washington State, gas purchases have significantly decreased, mainly due to hybrid cars (and the higher cost of gas making gas-powered vehicle owners drive less). This has fostered a significant decrease in gas taxes collected, thus negatively affecting maintenance, building, and repair of infrastructure.


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RE: Electric cars.

Dockside,

That's why we need to convert to mileage based user fees.

Here is a link that might be useful: MBUF


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RE: Electric cars.

Brushworks, over the life of the car the gas savings may total more than the difference. In fact PG&E gives a lower electric rate to electric car owners in California. I also have neighbors who charge up their electric cars with the same solar panels on their roof that supplies their home electricity. Their fuel bills for the cars are zero. ZERO
The regular savings in gas versus paying for the electricity for just one year would be be about $1,140 a year - assuming gas at $3.50- This is according to a report from the Union of Concerned Scientists. See Link

But we're paying more that $4.00 a gallon... over the life of the car the fuel savings would be what? $10,000- $15,000 or more? Here's a quote from the San Francisco Chronicle concerning the price of an electric car you asked about-
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"The Nissan Leaf, for example, has a suggested retail price of $35,200, and in California, incentives from the state and federal governments can bring the price down to $25,200."
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And that's before the fuel savings. They require less maintenance as well. And there are stickers that allow the vehicle to use car pool lanes.

Some of these benefits extend to plug in hybrids as well. You might try- http://www.driveclean.ca.gov/

No offense really but what is wrong with you Brushworks- you want electric vehicles to pay gas taxes? Do you own stock in oil companies or are you just not a serious person?

Here is a link that might be useful: April 2012 article about benefits


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RE: Electric cars.

Taxes destined for repairing roads are not done as a percentage, but done as a fixed amount, like 10 cents a gallon. So back when gas was $1.29, that was fine. Now that its $4.50 and the price of crude has shot up, that makes the bitumen, tar, and what not they use to fix roads much more expensive as well. Everybody uses the roads, so why not institute a milage/weight tax, heavier vehicles that tear up the roads pay more, and tiny electric cars pay less.


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RE: Electric cars.

ever pay the road tax on 6 semis?

never an electric gizmo for me, unless it make simulate the tunes exhaust of a 454 or a cumming diesel.


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RE: Electric cars.

alexr,

Your example is very isolated. Electric cars are not wanted by 94% of the driving population because they are not practical for 94% of the population. What fits your little world in CA is much too small for my big world in Ohio. Some of us do more than park a car in the driveway.

Once government subsidies are cut, the Leaf, Volt, etc will die.

Do I want you to pay gasoline tax? No. I want you to pay road use tax. Read up on MBUF and you'll understand why it makes more sense.

Here is a link that might be useful: Not the answer.


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RE: Electric cars.

Brushworks, concerning MBUF...What about snow chains and studded tires? What about hacking any system based on the internet? What about privacy? Are people really going to be more mindful when they get their bill later- "oh gee, I guess I drove too much last week"

As David mentioned, perhaps electric cars and efficient hybrid cars would be subsidized so that the gas guzzlers would pay more dearly for their 'transportation fee'. Makes good sense to me. The Oil Companies have not ever paid their true costs- they have been subsidized by the Government in so many ways it's sickening. They never paid for the roads anyway, and yet they got the benefit. And they helped take out the 'clean' electric rail public transportation in many towns, including the one I live in.

Look, I read your report and most all of it could be interpreted to make the existing system of fuel tax work by increasing fuel tax prices. Inflation increase? What's so hard about that?

Your 'guys' seem to be 'flat taxers' in several aspects... they want to remove various exemptions and funneling of money to mass transit. But then they say they'll give rural drivers a break. And would they really implement higher mileage rates at peak times when the cars are sitting there polluting away? If so other users could be exempt too.

Really it's just another way to pay, and I might be fine with it, .... but it's their interpretation of the facts that I don't think make any sense.
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By the way, for your education, California is not "my little world" and in fact it's the 9th largest economy in the world.

And I tell you this a a favor, because your really seem to have no sense of the world around you, you haven't acknowledged the environmental damages or pollution or climate damages and the cost to human rights of a world of gas powered vehicles.

Think Ecuador, or the Niger Delta. Or the refinery explosions we've had here in the Bay Area, or the tanker leaks, some here in the Bay Area as well as the more famous one in Alaska,or the B.P. oil rig explosion in the Gulf....come on, must I chide you more?


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RE: Electric cars.

Yes, but you're only a minute part of California. It's obvious you don't understand my concern for climate change, nor does it matter at this point.

What really matters is that you write to the president and share with him your concerns and order him on what he needs to do before his second term is wasted on campaigning for the next congress.

Read up on Jane Long. She's a California resident.

Jane Long chairs the California’s Energy Future committee at the California Council on Science and Technology and cochairs the Bipartisan Policy Center’s geoengineering task force.

It's not as easy as saying everybody needs to buy a Leaf.


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RE: Electric cars.

I have a question, and I truly don't know the answer. But, don't we have to make electricity to charge electric cars? And how do we do that without coal and gasoline etc.?


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RE: Electric cars.

Electricity is made several ways, here in Ca. it's mostly natural gas and relatively clean, at least until fracking starts up. Then there's hydro electricity - like the Grand Coulee Dam, Hoover Dam etc and 'Nuclear power' - like Japan used until the Fukushima disaster

.And of course there is Solar created from the sun, and wind as in windmills- and then the more traditional fuels, oil and coal. Coal and oil have become extremely nasty- with Mountain top removal for Coal and the Tar Sand extraction for some oil, notably in the news, the Canadian tar sands.

Some countries, do not even use their natural gas, they burn it off when drilling for oil, because natural gas is harder to transport. Oil is very transportable and storable.

But even our Military has found that Solar makes great sense when fighting in foreign countries.
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Brush, what is your point? How should I know what your concerns are from the limited exchange we've had concerning electric cars? And what is your point about Jane Long? I know who she is, but what is it you want to communicate- other than the banal statement "It's not as easy as saying everybody needs to buy a Leaf"..

I can throw out the name of a friend of mine knowledgeable about the subject and you can read her papers too, if you want-but don't do it on my account. What specifically concerning Jane Long do you wish to communicate, or provide me a link please?

I really did go to the trouble of reading your last report and I thought the folks who wrote it were idiots. You never bothered to address any of my concerns, - like do you really want some government agency following every move you make in your car, knowing exactly the kind of car you're driving etc, ??.. but that was just one of many concerns, so maybe you can make sense of why you brought it up to begin with, but whatever, I think I made a valiant attempt to try to understand you, or 'suffer fools gladly' as they say.

Here is a link that might be useful: Ms. Janda


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RE: Electric cars.

I was just glancing through the Car issue of Consumer Reports, and they tested the Tesla electric car.

They thought it was pretty spiffy, for what thats worth. If I had $80,000 to spare, I could see getting one.


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RE: Electric cars.

Mr. Bothell just tested the hybrid on a road trip. Averaging 40 mph. OBTW we're having an electric charging station installed at the beach cottage we own, one of a group of cabins each individually owned, because there is a demand for a charging station.


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RE: Electric cars.

Mrs. Bothell

The Ford Fusion Hybrid claims 47 mpg. However, it doesn't deliver that in real life driving situations. But even if it manages 40 mpg, which is often does, it doesn't need plugged in, which is a huge advantage to me.

I drive 244 miles round trip 3 days per week. A plug in interruption would delay my day by hours. That may not matter when a person is retired, or just driving to the beach cottage, but my life is still very productive and I hate delays.

BTW, a 15 year old Toyota Corolla bragged 32 average mpg and we're still dealing with what I consider poor mileage Hybrids, 34 to 41 mpg.


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RE: Electric cars.

Brushworks: after an SUV whose top mileage was 26.8 on highway trips, we're really happy with the Honda hybrid getting 40. Honestly, the demand for a charging station for electric cars was a surprise to me, but I mentioned it to show how people are changing what vehicles they purchase and how they choose to spend their money for cars.


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RE: Electric cars.

One of my daughters got 31 MPG with her Honda Civic HX (1.6 V-Tec E) pulling her jet boat.

On the open road she often gets 40 plus MPG.

These cars were some of the most efficient cars ever produced.

They didn't sell well since gas was pretty cheap at the time, plus they were bare bones.


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RE: Electric cars.

Thousands of people have successfully converted their conventional car to electric car , despite having little or no mechanical background because they follow an excellent guide which walks them through, step by step, each procedure.
It is a fact; you'll be surprised how simple it is once it's broken down into individual tasks.

Here is a link that might be useful: Electricity World


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