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The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Posted by heri_cles (My Page) on
Fri, Feb 17, 12 at 21:01

This is the summer surprise that the Koch brothers will spring on us for the election stretch. They will hoard gasoline offshore until people cry uncle and allow oil companies to pillage every corner of God's earth for fossil fuels.

The energy companies want a free license to rape the Earth for fossil fuels, burn them and pollute us into extinction. They are not going to let Obama and the Democrats stand in their way..at least not without a fuel fight.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

$5/gallon gas is going to help some rich guys, but it's going to hurt a whole other bunch of rich guys so I'm not sure it will work for them. Meanwhile the American people are just pawns in their game.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

I may very well engage energy debates which could skew in favor those who want to pillage the earth for fossil fuels, and end up tipping the election in the Fall.
The Koch brothers have already been accused of manipulating fuel prices. I am wondering aloud here why those who want to manipulate the electorate and have the means to do so won't do it.

If all else fails with the weak GOPer candidate field, and they keep losing on these ridiculous social issues, sparking a raging battle between environmentalists vs the drill baby drill crowd could be the easiest things for the Koch bros. and their like to do.

$5/gallon will get peoples attention.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

My wife drives 1 mile to work. I drive less than 3. I don't care about me. What it will do is devastate the budgets of poor working class people, especially those who drive to two or more jobs.

Just another example of our government doing nothing for their constituents.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

links?


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

links?


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

  • Posted by vgkg 7-Va Tidewater (My Page) on
    Fri, Feb 17, 12 at 23:33

Don't look now but your links are missing...

If the recent Israeli threat attacking Iran (whether real or not) doesn't materialize by July we could be in for a nice summer/fall price drop. Speculators may be money hungry creeps but they aren't dumb enough to be the last creep holding the bag.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Slowing up drilling permits in the Gulf, nixing the Keystone pipeline!!! Do you really think the American people are dumb enough to blame the Koch brothers?


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

The sane majority is intelligent enough to place blame where it belongs... don't you worry.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Nixing the Keystone pipeline is the right thing to do in my opinion. The environment matters. It matters more than a few hundred short-term jobs. Because once it is gone, it's gone.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

No OCCUPYING gas stations?

Keystone XL would not limit our gasoline prices, nor will fracking lower our cost of natural gas.

Rob the earth and run with the money is all it's doing.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

The sane majority is intelligent enough to place blame where it belongs... don't you worry.

Exactly.

No need to drill in the Mexican gulf anymore, just send out the vessels to suck the crude right from the surface. Eyeless shrimp, anyone?

Oil prices are rising despite the lowest demand since 1997.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

We will pay for oil precisely what the oil companies and world market prices say we will.

It has nothing to do with supply, just ask a Canadian.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

It's not gas prices that hurt the employment/income/credit challenged, but the cost of vehicles, financing, insurance, registration, inspection, maintenance, repairs, tickets, towing, impound fees, taxis etc. Gas prices just add insult to injury.

Much of the rising petroleum costs are embedded in the costs of goods and services, so they're not transparent. Some are passed to customers, some are absorbed by businesses and others are passed to employees of the businesses - downsizing, automation, reduced wages, reduced hours, fewer benefits, higher performance demands etc.

Back in 2008, gas was in the mid to high $4 range, diesel was over $5, kerosene was over $5, heating oil was in the mid $4 range and propane was equally high, or higher per BTU in some regions.

Record numbers of landlords raised rents of heated apartments and/or no longer included heat and hot water.

Transportation companies raised rates, added fuel surcharges and small outfits and operators were dropping like flies.

Driving to, or taking taxis to part-time jobs no longer made financial sense, so the market shed many part-time workers and many more didn't enter the job market.

High fuel prices are especially cruel to our young job seeking population.

In 2008 they increased the income limits, and raised the grant amounts of the HEAP, Emergency HEAP and Heating Equipment Replacement Program substantially since so many people needed assistance.

We had a record number of emergency service calls, fuel run-outs and boiler/furnace/hot water heater replacements due to neglect that year as well.

There were many fires and CO related incidents as many people burned wood, used electric/kerosene space heaters and neglected equipment maintenance, repairs and replacement.

The same happened with auto service - record neglect related repairs.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

We will pay for oil precisely what the oil companies and world market prices say we will.

It has nothing to do with supply, just ask a Canadian.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

I chuckle again about the right-wing wagging over limits to "domestic" development and transport of carbon resources. Oh the Horror! No worry about the vast armada of naval fleets operating far from our shores and sucking down vast quantities of fuel oil and other petrochemical products purchased from other sources.

Petroleum and natural gas are fungible products with world prices set elsewhere. Mobile/Exxon's coming war on Iran will surely up the profits of the industry while bleeding the world economy, fragile as the economy is.

Meanwhile what will China and Russia do while the US and its satellites pound Iranian infrastructure and military capabilities into dust?


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

I believe the price of gas the military is using in Afghanistan when transportation is factored in is 10 times that figure heri. Then check the fuel consumption of the vehicles being used and throw your hands up in horror.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

mark / james said:
It's not gas prices that hurt the employment/income/credit challenged...

You've got to be kidding, right?

marshallz: There are many links that discuss the Koch Bros. and other commodity speculators manipulating oil supply and gasoline prices. Since they have done that and because of their Right Wing agenda, I am just wondering why they wouldn't do it to get Obama out of office? The GOPer Congress has already proved that they would rather obstruct economic progress than do anything that might help re-elect Obama.
"""""""""""""""""
From the link below:

"Higher Gas Prices and Koch Industries"

Once again, gasoline prices are going through the roof. And once again, you'll hear vague rumblings about "oil speculators" being responsible.

If you're like me, you probably have no idea who these oil speculators are, what they're doing to make such huge profits from higher oil prices (without producing anything themselves), and why they keep getting away with it. (As well as "Hey, how can I get in on this?")

Would you believe, Koch Industries is one of the largest oil speculators. Why is this not surprising?

Needless to say Koch Industries doesn't extract any oil. But they're major players in shipping crude oil, refining and distributing it. With such control over every stage of the market, they have excellent information for speculating on the future price.

When it comes to parlaying their insider knowledge into complicated convoluted financial schemes, Koch Industries has picked up where Enron left off.

In 2008, Koch Industries practiced "contango" market manipulation. That's the practice of buying and storing huge quantities of a commodity in order to create a fake "shortage." In 2008 Koch Industries leased four supertankers for holding/hording oil off the U.S. Gulf coast, in anticipation of higher prices.

As far as why they're able to keep getting away with this: the Koch Brothers have stacked Congress with their own private army of prostitutes (formerly known as Republicans) to make sure Koch Industries can keep doing what it wants when it wants.

The Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) says oil speculation is at a record high level right now; and this speculation is the cause of these skyrocketing gas prices you're seeing. And by a sheer coincidence, Congressional Republicans keep trying to eliminate funding for the CFTC in order to protect their pimps.

In another wacky coincidence, Koch Industries lobbied frantically against last year's financial reform bill because of certain provisions regarding transparency in the energy trading market.

If gas prices keep going up and up this summer, don't blame it on them treehuggers. Blame it on the Kochsuckers."

Here is a link that might be useful: Koch Brothers do the


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

I agree, for most working people there are many other budget items that can be controlled to compensate for rising fuel cost.

Chase is correct - most all will pay whatever it takes. 5 bucks per gallon for gasoline in today's dollar is not close to a game-changer. More like 20.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

This is the summer surprise that the Koch brothers will spring on us for the election stretch.

The Koch brothers, or Obama? I mean, how is he going to drastically DROP gas prices just before the election, if they don't drastically rise now?

Either way, it doesn't matter, That's what's going to happen, and it's my belief that no matter who's pulling the strings, this is why.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Specifically, other than the national oil reserves, what control does the President of the US have over oil prices?


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

You could be right bill, but it could also be a push for the "green" companies his bundlers want taxpayer money to start up with. And things like pushing the chevy VOLT.

LOL and this one always accusing other people of spreading lies...No need to drill in the Mexican gulf anymore, just send out the vessels to suck the crude right from the surface. Eyeless shrimp, anyone?

The Gulf beaches are as pristine as ever...and the eyeless shrimp? They can still be found in the coldest deeps of the Gulf where they have always existed.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Chase is correct - most all will pay whatever it takes. 5 bucks per gallon for gasoline in today's dollar is not close to a game-changer. More like 20.

Many people can't afford $4 a gallon gasoline let alone $5 a gallon without cutting even further into their shrinking budget for life's necessities.
I suppose that is hard to imagine for some people who have it well off and simply don't care a lick about those who don't.

Bill said The Koch brothers, or Obama? I mean, how is he going to drastically DROP gas prices just before the election, if they don't drastically rise now?

Obama is not manipulating gasoline prices by trading in commodities. There isn't really anything he could do to counter a political dirty trick by the Koch bros.

There is no question that manipulation of gasoline prices could very well impact the election. For a party like the GOP who has done all matter of dirty tricks in the past, from burglarizing the opposition campaign headquarters to the obstruct Obama at all cost strategy, why would anyone be surprised what they have in mind for this year's October surprise?


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Specifically, other than the national oil reserves, what control does the President of the US have over oil prices?

Control? none. INFLUENCE?? Plenty. The reason the prices are going up right now have nothing to do with commodities trading, Heri. It's because the refineries have cut back production. In other words, it's being manually manipulated.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

The reason the prices are going up right now have nothing to do with commodities trading, It's because the refineries have cut back production. In other words, it's being manually manipulated.

Yeah, I agree with that.

Personally, I don't want to see gasoline prices artificially messed with for any improper purpose, political or otherwise.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

now Bill has me really confused. Obama can dictate that refineries open operations but seemingly can't order them closed. Why would he want the price of fuel to go up now?? So he can drive the prices down in Oct.? Some influence there.

What happened to common sense among HT=ers?


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Goldman Sachs predicted peak oil at $130 in 12 months last Sept. I posted it on here I guess $130 might give you $5 $5.50 gas gas come Late Summer into the election season!
Even with Kuwait increasing production how do you get it out of there if we attack Iran.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

I was working in an oil refinery in 1979, remember the long lines at the pumps? It wasn't all about the rising price of crude. The government had us slow down the production of gasoline and up the production of number 2 heating fuel. When we finally went back to regular production of gasoline, all that number 2 heating fuel was loaded on tankers and sent off to Saudi Arabia. So bill is right.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Heri, your ad hominems are blather.

Someone who can't afford $4 gasoline in today's hydrocarbon bonanza-world has all kinds of problems. Such a person in a solar-budget world will be a field hand lucky to get enough calories to subsist.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

This morning on the radio, some 'petroleum expert' was blathering on about 'geopolitical risks' factored into the world price, citing Iran and Sudan. Thats gobbledy-gook for speculation. Still, I thought was odd because Sudan sells almost exclusively to China, and since Iran fulfills long-term contracts and now that it refuses to be paid in dollars, can't have that much of an effect.

Also pointed out with the low demand and high crude costs, refineries are closing.

So once again, we are seeing how this wonderful, worldwide free market in energy is working to the economic benefit of the little guy, where lower demand and abundant supply is leading to higher prices. We should further support more tax breaks for oil companies, commodity traders and speculators, and less income tax on themselves, shareholders and executives, and ignore the string of record profits because if anyone points that out, thats 'class warfare'.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Bears repeating, with kudos to david52:

"So once again, we are seeing how this wonderful, worldwide free market in energy is working to the economic benefit of the little guy, where lower demand and abundant supply is leading to higher prices. We should further support more tax breaks for oil companies, commodity traders and speculators, and less income tax on themselves, shareholders and executives, and ignore the string of record profits because if anyone points that out, thats 'class warfare'."


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

yeah, what happened to that windfall profits tax on oil companies that Obama touted in the 2008 campaign. It mysteriously disappeared, maybe into his campaign coffers.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

mrsmeowkjun mews...

:/)


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

pn brown said:Heri, your ad hominems are blather.
Someone who can't afford $4 gasoline in today's hydrocarbon bonanza-world has all kinds of problems. Such a person in a solar-budget world will be a field hand lucky to get enough calories to subsist.

Blather? Nonsense. There was no ad hominem but rather a pointed disagreement with what you said and the way you phrased it. That's why I rejected your dismissive attitude and negative characterization of those who would be impacted by higher gasoline prices. You're just dead wrong.

There are MANY people and businesses in the United States that would be severely impacted by $5/gal. gasoline, not just the poor or those looking for food or on food stamps. Furthermore, there is no question that higher fuel prices would have an enormous impact on our economy and on the election.

That is why I posed the question about whether those who have manipulated commodities and oil prices in the past might do it again, having run out of other more conventional political options.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

mrskjun
yeah, what happened to that windfall profits tax on oil companies that Obama touted in the 2008 campaign. It mysteriously disappeared, maybe into his campaign coffers.

Once again this shows why study results prove that people that listen to Faux News are less informed.

I do not understand why it is said that President Obama can move mountains. If he is this good what better reason than to vote for God.

Here is a link that might be useful: Obama eliminates $40 billion in oil tax breaks


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Sounds good, but it's nothing more than a a proposal in the budget for 2013, just as it was last year. Nothing more.

And who will pay for the elimination of oil tax breaks? Do you think it might be the oil companies or the consumer?


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

hmmm marquest..ck this out

Here is a link that might be useful: link


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

mrskjun, I am slowly seeing why you are easily being lead.

The link I posted explained that every budget proposed by President Obama is there to keep a campaign promise. You suggested that you thought it was in his campaign coffers. I gave you a link to show you that he has proposed to change the Oil subsidies by placing them in a budget.

You go out looking to find something that says promise broken on a totally different issue. What you have found is a oil compensation to the American public.

Two different Oil Company issues. You have to understand policies, congress, voting, budgets etc. You should know political policy so you are making an informed decision vs what Faux news tells you.

If you believe one source you become a wooden puppet to be laughed at and made to look like a fool.

In short your link does not support your claim that Obama has oil money in his coffers.

Keep researching it is good for you to learn and it helps others learn what is really the truth. Whether we want to believe the truth or not at least we learn.

There are times I think these political candidates want us to....'Who are you going to believe? Me or your lying eyes '

Here is a link that might be useful: Republican Congressman


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Posted by mrskjun 9 (My Page) on
Sun, Feb 19, 12 at 13:55

yeah, what happened to that windfall profits tax on oil companies that Obama touted in the 2008 campaign.

This was exactly what the link was referring to. As far as the campaign coffers, that was tongue in cheek. I have no idea how much oil companies contributed to his campaign.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Also pointed out with the low demand and high crude costs, refineries are closing.

Time to strip mine Canada, boil dirty sand for oil, and pipe it down to the Gulf refineries to keep them busy.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Photobucket


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

And what was the price in mid-2008? Right before the Bush economic collapse?


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

It never ceases to amaze me how anti environment the GOP is. Build the pipeline, (even tho the oil will mostly go to China) and destroy our forests and lands. Ask PA how fracking is working out for us. Totally screwing the environment and letting the companies pollute the water, build roads, and cut down forests. Oh yeah, we have a right wing Governor along with some Tea party freaks who were elected in 2008. All the many thousands of dead animals that were killed in the Gulf by the oil spill..Just collateral damage. You'll have these little glitches. How quickly they forget.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

It never ceases to amaze me how people blame the President for the price of gas. It has nothing to do with him, not one single thing.

The price of oil is driven by world market prices, cartels, oil companies and international speculation.

Every single westernized country is paying as much or more for gas than the US. Taxes excluded , we pay as much or more for oil and gas as you do.....how did Obama do that !

Do you realize how much American domestic oil products you export to other countries? Almost as much as you import from Canada and we are your largest single supplier. The oil companies are making a killing and you blame your President.......brilliant.

You can tap into all the reserves you have and it will have no impact on what you pay. The oil companies will ship it China and you will pay what the worlds market is willing to pay.

For oil companies the charity doesn't begin at home.......ask any Canadian.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Chase, May I suggest one other influence on oil prices....the level of economic activity. Globally, economic growth has been advancing at over 3% for a few years.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Mon, Feb 20, 12 at 9:01

During Bush's second term in the summer of 2008 gasoline ran up to over $4.00 a gallon. The price remained at that level for almost two months before a recession brought the economy crashing down and gasoline prices along with it.

How did Bush do that ?? From the above posts, we all know it was all his fault :)

Chase there are some who refuse to believe the world market sets the price.

Here is a link that might be useful: linky dink


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Sometimes, the world market does INFLUENCE the price, thru the price of a barrel of oil, or world speculation. They never SET it. Sometimes, like now, it's deliberately influenced through manually controlling the output of the refineries. Atleast in this area, 46 cents up since this date last year, and 18 cents up in the last month.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

I agree jmc and see that as a component of world market prices.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

One thing us North Americans don't realize is that in most other countries, gasoline / diesel / fuel oil etc are subject to the same govt over-sight on prices as other energy sources. So here, your electric utility or natural gas utility wants to change the price, it has to go before a state commission and show the reasons / justifications for the price increase (and recently, with the glut of natural gas, any decrease) because the profit margins of these utilities are fixed by the regulatory boards.

So in many countries, the price of fuel is the same no matter what brand, what station you buy it from - perhaps with some distance-from-refinery adjustment, but the price doesn't fluctuate hourly, as it does here, due to some vague futures market.

And, of course, as someone else pointed out on this forum a few years ago - you'd be hard pressed to find anything else subject to as much price manipulation as petroleum - other countries do it, nationwide, for macro-economic reasons, see China. Others do it as a means of wealth distribution, see Saudi Arabia and other oil exporting countries. And other countries do it for national security / environmental reasons, see Scandinavia, Japan.

Here we pretend that its just them ol' supply and demand, nothing anybody can do about it, except blame the President. While the oil companies rack up record profits, year after year.

Sometime, for fun, think of these gasoline increases as a tax - going directly to mega-international oil conglomerate profits, which in turn are used to bribe your congress.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

  • Posted by vgkg 7-Va Tidewater (My Page) on
    Mon, Feb 20, 12 at 10:12

How many similar gasoline groundhog days have we've been thru over the past many years? I've lost count. It goes up up up and just when green energy gets everyone's attention it drops like a rock. Don't be fooled again. Don't you remember the scary predictions of $400/barrel just a few years ago just before it collapsed? (this was long before Bush's deflationary depression). Like I said above, once Israel doesn't attack Iran by July it'll fall way below $100/barrel...again. This is just another sucker punch.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

CNN's coverage of high gas prices in 2008

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- House Speaker Nancy Pelosi Thursday blamed the "two oil men in the White House," President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney, and their Republican allies in Congress for gas prices exceeding $4 a gallon.

CNN's coverage of high gas prices in 2012

Washington (CNN) � President Barack Obama confronted two political realities this week:
� Rising gas prices are bad for a politician's poll numbers
� There is almost nothing a politician can do about it, at least in the short run.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

So? CNN finally has figured out that gas prices move up and down almost in spite of what politicians wish because they control neither the supply nor the demand and surely not world wide. It takes a megatransnational corporation to control supply to achieve price fluctuations.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

LOL marshall, yeah CNN figured it out alright. Liberal in the White House vs. conservative in the White House, coverage accordingly.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Looks like the SS Camaro will be sitting out the summer.:(


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Mon, Feb 20, 12 at 11:45

Marshall thank you for being the "voice of reason" :)


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

LOL ohiomom, that is the voice of reason? The democrats repeatedly blamed Bush for the price of gas at the pump when it spiked during his administration.

Guess what, Obama can take the blame this time around. Spin it any way you want.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Mon, Feb 20, 12 at 14:14

MrsK this is a game I will not play with you ... :)


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

I'll play. The neocon ideologues in the Bush Administration did indeed play a role - I posted this before, but hey.......

snip ".....In this case, the hire involves Walter Lukken, who toward the end of the Bush years was the acting head of the Commodity Futures Trading Commission. As the chief regulator of the commodities markets, it was Lukken's job to spot and combat speculative abuses and manipulations that might have led to artificial price hikes and other disruptions.

In 2008, the last full year of his tenure, Lukken presided over some of the worst chaos in the commodities markets in recent history, with major disruptions in the markets for food products like wheat, cotton, soybeans, and rice, and energy commodities like oil.

Most notoriously, 2008 saw a historic spike in the price of oil futures, an enormously destructive speculative bubble that peaked in July of that year at the lunatic high price of $146 per barrel (Goldman, Sachs at the height of the mania was telling investors oil might go to $200 a barrel).

It was Lukken's job to spot the speculative abuses leading to disruptions like that bubble, but he didn't do it. Instead, he repeatedly insisted that there was nothing untoward going on, most notoriously through testimony before the House and the Senate at the height of the oil boom.

In testimony that summer, Lukken continually insisted that the price surge was due to normal supply-and-demand forces, ignoring the far more obvious explanation of a massive inflow of cash from commodity index speculators.

Despite data showing that the amount of commodity index speculation had grown from $13 billion in 2003 to more than $260 billion as of March 2008 -- in other words, the amount of money betting on a rise in commodity prices had risen by a factor of twenty during that time -- Lukken on May 7, 2008 told the Senate that a more likely explanation for the surge could be found in the growth of industrial demand from places like China, and also, get this, in changes in the weather:

These are extraordinary times for our markets with commodity futures prices at unprecedented levels. In the last three months, the agricultural staples of wheat, corn, soybeans, rice and oats have hit all-time highs. We have also witnessed record prices in crude oil, gasoline and other related energy products. Broadly speaking, the falling dollar, strong demand from the emerging world economies, global political unrest, detrimental weather and ethanol mandates have driven up commodity futures prices across-the-board.

On top of these trends, the emergence of the sub-prime crisis last summer led investors to increasingly seek portfolio exposure in commodity futures. As the federal regulator of these products, the CFTC is closely monitoring these growing markets to ensure they are working properly for farmers, investors, and consumers. To date, CFTC staff analysis indicates that the current higher futures prices generally are not a result of manipulative forces.

By insisting that the spike was "not a result of manipulative forces," Lukken helped Wall Street in its efforts to avoid reforms that might have prevented such abuses, like the closing of a series of loopholes and exemptions that allowed a handful of major speculators to play a lopsided role in the setting of commodity prices.

So what was Lukken's reward for helping the financial services industry avoid such reforms? Well, Lukken has just been named to head the Futures Industry Association, or FIA, the chief lobbying arm of futures investors." snip - end quote

Here is a link that might be useful: link


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Looks like the SS Camaro will be sitting out the summer.:(

A friend of mine right up the road's got a 71 vette with an LS-6 454 with a blower and duel quad sticking out of the hood. That thing will pass anything but a gas station, and you can bet he'll be out in it. :-) Some people it just doesn't matter what the price of gas is. :-)


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Not seeing an explanation from Heri for why american peasants are impoverished by $5 gas but european peasants manage with $10 gas?


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

It really does make a difference here in the rural west, where a 100 - 200 mile commute every day isn't uncommon, and a lot of the vehicles are full-sized pickup trucks and SUV's due to winter weather conditions. Guys that work the oil fields or commute to construction jobs don't have a lot of choice.

When the fuel price hit that peak in 2008, one friend sold an F250 and baught a mini Morris. Told me that his fuel savings every month were more than the car payments, insurance, and registration fees on the new vehicle.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

I believe that. I've seen weeks where I was spending as much as 3-350.00 on gas in a single week. But then the bottom fell out of construction, and I didn't have to worry about it any more. :-)


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

David;

"Despite data showing that the amount of commodity index speculation had grown from $13 billion in 2003 to more than $260 billion as of March 2008 -- in other words, the amount of money betting on a rise in commodity prices had risen by a factor of twenty during that time --"

Who took the other side of this bet? It takes two to bet, not one. So the amount of money betting on a fall has risen by a 20-fold?

I have a slow loading computer so I just closed your link as soon as I saw where it was heading: "
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog....

Recycled nonsense. It didn't make sense the first time around either.

Heri:

In 2008, Koch Industries practiced "contango" market manipulation. That's the practice of buying and storing huge quantities of a commodity in order to create a fake "shortage." In 2008 Koch Industries leased four supertankers for holding/hording oil off the U.S. Gulf coast, in anticipation of higher prices."


We've been through this nonsense already, too. The United States uses about 20 million barrels of oil each and every day. The average large tankers hold about 2 million barrels. So, Koch, holding less than half a day's worth of US, (not world!!!--- roughly 90 million barrels) oil AFTER it had crashed in 1980....

...Oh, why bother. You've decided already.

"There are many links that discuss the Koch Bros. and other commodity speculators manipulating oil supply and gasoline prices."

That much is true. One ill-informed idiot quoting another ill-informed idiot.

Marshall, when we going to Vegas? You and me, baby.

Hay


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Idiots untie!!!!

Idiots untie!!!!

"AFTER it had crashed in 1980.

S/B: "AFTER.... in 2008"

Hay


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Not seeing an explanation from Heri for why american peasants are impoverished by $5 gas but european peasants manage with $10 gas?

Distances. Compared to the US, Europeans live in Liliputland. Not to mention fuel-efficient cars. Plus, public transport is pretty good.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

and how many Americans drive long distances on a regular basis? I'd suggest that all North Americans routinely occupy a world about the size of Liliput.

The question to heri is very valid.


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RE: ...The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline


Furthermore...$5.00 per gallon you say? Add subsidies, tax-cuts and "war" costs, and the real price right now is at a whopping $8.00 Dollars in reality.

Oil Prices Are Rising DESPITE Lowest Demand Since 1997:

Strangely, the current run-up in prices comes despite sinking demand in the U.S. “Petrol demand is as low as it’s been since April 1997,” says Tom Kloza, chief oil analyst for the Oil Price Information Service. “People are properly puzzled by the fact that we’re using less gas than we have in years, yet we’re paying more.”

Kloza believes much of the increase is due to speculative money that’s flowed into gasoline futures contracts since the beginning of the year, mostly from hedge funds and large money managers. “We’ve seen about $11 billion of speculative money come in on the long side of gas futures,” he says. “Each of the last three weeks we’ve seen a record net long position being taken.”

A multitude of experts, from academics to government agencies, have pinned the 2008 gas price spike on oil speculators. Of course, a big increase in gas prices could doom the slow but steady economic recovery.

Follow the money.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

This thread is just another religion thread.

Bill is proud of the fact that, no matter what gets shown otherwise, he'll NEVER change his mind.

You believe the nonsense on this thread? Facts don't faze you? Then you got religion.

You and Bill.

Hay


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

maddie, question for you....are there functioning economies anywhere in the world besides the US? You and your link appear to be just a little insular in your thinking. Just a little.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

What question?

Why should I respond to an idiot calling me an idiot or this nonsense about how $10 gasoline impacts Europeans vs how $5 gas will impact Americans ?

These are diversions from the point of my OP which cited how some commodity manipulators like the Koch Bros. could impact fuel prices and asked why wouldn't they do just that given there Right Wing agendas.

Here is a link that might be useful: Koch Brothers and Oil Manipulation


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I believe for every drop of oil that flows.....

"Kloza believes"

"A multitude of experts..."

David, Heri and Maddie.

Hay


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

I think if one were to, you know, draw a line in the sand on a beach, and on one side put the people who believe that tens of billions of speculative investment in commodity markets results in rapid and dramatic price swings, and on the other side of the line, those who believe that nope, it has noting to do with the price, it would be rather crowded on the side that does not contain Hay.

BRUSSELS: The European Commission will propose this coming week new powers for national regulators to limit investor positions in commodity derivatives and increase oversight of high-frequency and algorithmic trading, according to a draft document reviewed Friday.

The proposal also tightens the rules by requiring off-exchange brokers to meet the same trade transparency requirements as large exchanges. It also scraps transparency exemptions for derivative and bond trading.

The proposed powers follow on the commitment of Group of 20 nations to increase oversight and transparency of opaque parts of the financial system. The proposal seeks to minimize differences in market regulation among European Union member states, and impose minimum sanctions for rule-breakers.

The "financial crisis has exposed weaknesses in the regulation of instruments other than shares, traded mostly between professional investors," said the draft document.

The European Commission, the European Union's executive arm, will propose the updated Markets in Financial Instruments Directive next Wednesday. Once the proposal comes out, it must still be approved by the European Parliament and by member states.

The draft says that transparency requirements will apply to all trading venues, from small brokerages to major exchanges. Previously only stock exchanges were subject to these requirements.

However, under the new rules, different financial products will have different reporting requirements. The proposal doesn't go into detail on how requirements for corporate bonds or derivatives might differ from stocks.

In light of the explosive growth in derivatives trading in recent years, the EU proposed that national regulators should be able to demand information on derivative positions from any person. Regulators would also be able to force a trader to reduce a derivatives position and limit their ability to enter into commodity derivatives contracts. The proposal says commodity trading venues should publish a weekly breakdown of positions in various commodity markets.

The commission proposes a number of exemptions to the rules. These include companies engaged in genuine commercial or insurance activities, pension funds, central banks and those trading only for themselves.

Algorithmic-trading firms, which use computer-driven automatic trading formulas, would also have to provide national regulators with details of their trading strategy at least annually. They would be obliged to operate the algorithmic strategies nonstop during their trading hours.

High-frequency trading firms would also be asked to adopt increased risk controls to be monitored by national authorities.

Here is a link that might be useful: European Socialists stifling the free market


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Bottom line, heri...gas per gallon around you is somewhere near 3.40/ gal, isn't it? it's not 4.00 and definitely not 5.00. Anyone can expound on something that may or may not happen at any time. just because they suggest it COULD happen doesn't mean that it will. The point of your OP is a guessing game, isn't it?


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

hayday:

Koch bros, hoarded a few tankers of oil to make money, not to manipulate the global price of oil, but the oil companies certainly have the capacity to do just that. My OP stated that:

"The energy companies want a free license to rape the Earth for fossil fuels, burn them and pollute us into extinction. They are not going to let Obama and the Democrats stand in their way..at least not without a fuel fight."

We are happy that the Republicans are down on their luck right now and are just being proactive here, trying to anticipate the next dirty trick by the Republicans or another possible October surprise.

Calling me an idiot and mocking Bill and others for their religious belief is not cool here.
How many times do you need to be reminded of that before you get suspended again bro?


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

"..it would be rather crowded on the side that does not contain Hay.

Another true statement. Fact is, there are a lot of really dumb people in this world.

(You ever see the statistics on the number of religious people on this earth, the number of people that believe....?)

Serves me well.

I'm outta here. I've got some miles to go before my next dance.


Hay


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

The point of your OP is a guessing game, isn't it?

I am not the only one who has speculated about the impact that rising gasoline prices would have on the election....or whether oil companies or other factors, like sword rattling at Iran by Republicans and candidates like Santorum could change that equation.

"White House officials are preparing for Republicans to use consumer angst about the cost of oil and gas to condemn his energy programs and buttress their argument that his economic policies are not working.

In a closed-door meeting last week, Speaker John A. Boehner instructed fellow Republicans to embrace the gas-pump anger they find among their constituents when they return to their districts for the Presidents Day recess.

"This debate is a debate we want to have," Mr. Boehner told his conference on Wednesday, according to a Republican aide who was present. "It was reported this week that well soon see $4-a-gallon gas prices. Maybe higher. Certainly, this summer will see the highest gas prices in years. Your constituents saw those reports, and theyll be talking about it."

Irans recent warnings of a disruption in the global oil trade have pushed the price of a barrel of domestic oil to more than $103, a six-month high and up about 34 percent since September. That has helped drive the average price of a gallon of regular gasoline in the United States to $3.52, a 30-cent increase in the past two months. It is already approaching $4 in some places.

Economists say the current price of oil is only a modest drag on the economy. But a big jump combined with tensions over Iran and continuing European debt worries could present a more significant challenge to Americas recovery, they say.

For the presidents economic team, the specter of such increases in oil prices comes on the heels of positive economic news that has lifted Mr. Obamas approval rating, including better-than-expected job growth, a surging stock market and a payroll tax deal that will put more money in the pockets of millions of Americans.

But Mr. Boehners message to his members echoes the aggressive talk coming from the Republican campaign trail, where the men vying for the right to challenge Mr. Obama are increasingly blaming Mr. Obamas administration for rising gas prices. A gallon of gas had dropped to $1.89 when Mr. Obama took office in 2009, in large part because of the fall in oil demand caused by the financial crisis, and has almost doubled since.

"They want higher energy prices. They want to push their radical agenda on the public," Rick Santorum said at a campaign event last week, accusing Democrats of pushing alternatives to oil. "We need a president who is on the side of affordable energy."

Newt Gingrich wrote on Twitter on Friday that "gasoline prices are unacceptable. We can do better!" He urged his supporters to sign a petition on his Web site calling for a return to $2.50-a-gallon gas. "Drill here. Drill now. Pay less," the petition says.

And talking points from the Republican National Committee that go out to conservative commentators every Friday often include rising gas prices among the "Top Line Messaging" for the week. A recent "Pundit Prep" document cited the national debt, unemployment and the price of gas as the three best ways to define the "Obama economy."

The presidents political advisers are bracing for battle as they envision the price of gas rising steadily through the summer, as it usually does. As the presidents motorcade whisked him through scenic Orange County on Thursday on the way to a California fund-raiser, one sign held by a protester read, "Gas prices up 91 percent under Obama."

Here is a link that might be useful: Rising Gas Prices Give G.O.P. Issue to Attack Obama


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

I didn't follow it all that closely last summer when Obama ordered a release of fuel from the strategic reserves - a graph shows that it was right after the price peak - which brings up the idea that a president can indeed mess with oil speculators.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

David, inmy post up thread I asked what control the President had OTHER than the reserves... that is a weapon.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

The only other thing an administration can do is open up an inquiry into the speculative market. Congress can do the same. Or not, as is the case when the Republicans have the majority and won't allow any of that kinda stuff.

For some reason, as soon as they announce an inquiry, the prices plummet.

Just a coincidence, I'm sure.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Hay, your sense of reasoning and deduction (or lack thereof) will never cease to amaze me.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Hay is a Field of His Own when it comes to winnowing through cons and scams to defend financial gamesmanship.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

This has been such an interesting thread, I'm glad Heri started it. I'm sure the subject will resurface quite a few times during this year. From the article Heri linked, it sounds like it's going to have to be the battle cry - if everything else continues to improve - the conservative's worst nightmare.

It will be an interesting game to watch play out.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

"Calling me an idiot and mocking Bill and others for their religious belief is not cool here.

How many times do you need to be reminded of that before you get suspended again bro?"

Heri, you really need to stop it with your lies and your petty threats. You know how we all depend on spell checkers these days? You need a reality checker before you hit the submit button. Welcome to Heri's Fanatsy World.

If anyone needs to get the blame for the current runup in the price of oil, it'd have to be whoever it is that's getting on Iran's case recently. That'd be your hero, Obama.

One consolation for you, Bill, if it helps: There's more evidence for the existence of God than there is that "speculation" causes the price movements we see in the commodity markets.

(I hadn't realized that all my driving to dance could be hurting Obama's reelection campaign. Takes out a little of the pain from the high prices I'm paying for gasoline. Today it's Fat Tuesday and I'm going to go find me a Cajun Queen and a Zydeco band and do a little Cajun Two Stepping.)

David:

"I didn't follow it all that closely last summer when Obama ordered a release of fuel from the strategic reserves - a graph shows that it was right after the price peak - which brings up the idea that a president can indeed mess with oil speculators.

That little red dot is when Obama announced that he'd release 30 million barrels of oil from the reserve. (8 hours worth of world consumption. ) Looks like it scared the daylights out of nobody.

Hay


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Since Americans are energy gluttons, perhaps a bit of restraint will help keep the prices down.

Consumer demand and summer refinery formulations (required by law) are two reasons for higher prices.

So, instead of driving the avenue or cruising the strip, take a walk, pull some weeds, and buy an electric lawnmower.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

and buy an electric lawnmower

Or heck, get rid of your lawn. It's a non-native adaptation of European lifestyle anyway - offers no redeeming value to the ecosystem of this area. It might as well be astro-turf for all the ecological good it does.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Esh,

Turfgrass is a big deal at The Ohio State University. Ohioans take pride in lush lawns. Keep your Roundup away!


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Have pity on all those mow-blow-and-go gardening services.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

The Dean of Turfgrass Science is paid $1.4 million per year.

Marshall, you're due for a promotion.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Tue, Feb 21, 12 at 8:49

"Drill here. Drill now. Pay less,"

...as Chase has pointed out more than once on this forum, that is not the case. Get a push mower, good exercise and good for the environment.

"or"

"grow food not lawns"

Here is a link that might be useful: Linky Dink


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

I don't use round-up to get rid of lawn, I use a shovel!

No lawn is much better for our environment than an electric lawnmower.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

We haven't put in a significant lawn in years although we have installed grass sward for ceremonial sites and as "streams" through other landscaping. Some customers just need grass.

I am a big supporter of food, not lawns, even for front yards and edible landscaping in private and public venues.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Please don't forget to grow food for the hummingbirds and butterflies!


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Ok, so the explanation given here to my question is that the difference is the vast distances of america, sea-to-shining-sea, I guess. Of course, Europe is biggish, as is Asia.

An economy that requires people to drive unaffordable distances to earn their daily bread is a broken economic system, one that energy descent will fairly quickly put an end to.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Nancy,

You'll be happy to know that I have a 900 SF Butterfly Garden that surrounds the deck and rear foundation. Such peaceful beauty.

Mom,

I do grow food. Apples and pears on 8 dwarf trees.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

I hope that 900 SF butterfly garden has some native host plants too. Nectar plants can only do so much for butterflies. They need a place to lay their eggs.

Of course trees like native oaks, native cherries, maples, hawthorns, willow and many others are host plants too.

Here is a link that might be useful: top twenty host plants


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

hayseed said:

I'm going to go find me a Cajun Queen and a Zydeco band and do a little Cajun Two Stepping.

So as the resident expert here on commodities, the price of oil and the causes for the variation in price, what is it that accounts for sudden swings on price at the pump that we have seen?

In terms of what you consider a drop in the bucket (30 million gallons / 8 hour = 90 Million barrels/day) why should the Keystone XL pipeline make any difference whatsoever.

Maybe you can clear this up before you go out and do your Queen, but last time I checked the Keystone XL pipeline was designed to pump out far less than what you call "a drop in the bucket" and ...I think far less than 1 Million barrels per day.

So, if that is about right, the Obama drop in the bucket would be well over one month of output from Keystone XL ?

Here is a link that might be useful: Keystone XL pipeline


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Esh,

My wife is the butterfly authority here. She planted to meet their needs, including egg-laying.

The butterflies also enjoy over-ripe pears, mashed and spread on broad leaves.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Hayseed:
Let me ask it more directly in this way...would the keystone xl pipeline lower the price of oil in any substantial way given its estimated daily output....especially given the facts in the graph that you posted above? I'm asking.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

I gotta run (I hear that Cajun beat in my head), but I'll tell you everything you need to know later.

For now, a pretty Cajun Queen and "Quick, Quick, Slow" will get you through the night. A few beers, a handful of beads and you're all set.

Hay


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Pnbrown,

I don't thnk distances have much to do with it. Europeans afford it by driving small, fuel effiecient cars. You won't see F150 's and SUV's!

They are also big on diesel. We had a rental car in Italy and found the cost of using it to be no more than we pay here....different car granted,


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Make sure to bring with some protection.
You sound like you're headed for trouble.
Anyway, I worry for you down there, tiny dancer.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Don't worry about me. I'm all talk.

Now, I'm really out of here.

Hay


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Don't worry 'bout me.

I didn't think about you or Obama or the price of gasoline or....

Althea posted a link in the Native People and Oxycontin thread to a book, Walking Your Blues Away Well Being which struck a chord in me.

I'm always repeating a line about dancing, "It's hard to be feeling the blues when you're dancing them!"

The basic idea of the book seems to be:

"A new approach to using walking to heal emotional trauma and bring forth optimal mental functioning"

...

Using a variety of case studies, he demonstrates that it is possible to dissolve the rigidity of a traumatic memory or negative mind state in as little as a half hour's time. His techniques have proven successful in helping to alleviate rage resulting from a domestic dispute as well as the chronic traumas soldiers experience during war that are often locked away for decades. While the physical benefits of walking have long been recognized, its importance in promoting and maintaining mental health has only recently been rediscovered. Hartmann's deceptively simple, yet potent exercises allow us to create our own walking journeys to restore our mental, emotional, and spiritual well-being as well as rejuvenate our body's health."

Now, just imagine, if you can get that kind of relief from walking, how much better off you're going to be if you elevate it to dancing to great music with a pretty woman in your arms.

Here's the music. Now imagine it's late in the evening, there's not a free inch of dance floor space and a pretty woman is standing next to you....

The last thing you'll be thinking about is Obama, the price of gasoline and all the troubles in the world.

Guaranteed.

Hay


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

What about the women on this board...perhaps they would prefer a tall handsome man next to them and ready to dance?


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

I do understand the push for fuel saving vehicles but I do not think where you live and weather conditions are taken into consideration.

I live in a harsh winter weather condition state. Our Road Crew do not have the best road clearing concerns coupled with the hills can make it dangerous to consider being fuel efficient. I have purchased a fuel efficient car for the summer but in the winter I will be in the SUV.

It always amazes me that snow predictions are forecast timely but our Snow removal crew always react as if it was a big surprise. I lived in other states and when bad weather conditions were forecast the crew was actually sent out ahead of the storm and was waiting on the side of road for the beginning of the storm. Our Crew wait until we have 4-5" of snow and ice and hear a couple of wrecks and death on the road then they start calling the crew in from their warm beds to start to clean the roads. How can a big city not get a hint after all these years have always been a mystery to me.

A few things I have heard during one of these bad storms. These comments are from PennDot our state road maintenance department.
-People should move so the crew can clear the roads
- Snow removal crew stuck on the road
- We are trying but traffic is tied up.

Just this week a driver of a SUV killed a young lady driving a little fuel efficient car and the roads were clear. These fuel efficent cars are no match for safety.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

There exist fuel efficient 4WD vehicles. Subaru, RAV4, Ford Escape, etc.

Aside from 30+ mpg, they have the major advantage that if you do get stuck, they are lightweight enough that you can get unstuck far more easily.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Now we know the truth. According to White House press secretary Carney, in his news briefing yesterday, Obama did not nix the Keystone pipeline. It was the republicans that did it.

I kid you not...he may not stop spinning until after the election!!


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Mrskjun, the Republican Governor of Nebraska asked that the pipeline be moved so that it doesn't cross the sandhills and the Ogalala Aquifer. He, in turn, was responding to the criticism and concern of the people who live there.

And so the President obliged, and requested that the pipeline company submit an alternative plan that bypasses the sand hills.

They have yet to do so, but it will likely be very similar to the existing, currently in operation pipelines, even paralleling them. And then, by law, the new plan has to pass through the normal EPA impact process and other permits. Everyone I've read has opined that shouldn't be much of a hurdle, particularly if it follows the existing pipeline route.

Are there any of the above statements you think constitute 'spin'?

And you might have noted that in Texas, they are already laying the groundwork for the new pipeline to get to the coast, so the Canadians can export their fuel to other markets.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Perhaps he meant that the Republicans forced the process to proceed too quickly, thus causing the denial of the request?


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actual quote

White House press secretary Jay Carney first says Republicans "forced" President Obama to deny the permit for the Keystone XL pipeline. Later in his press briefing, Carney says Obama didn't turn down the pipeline.

"In terms of Keystone, as you all know, the history here is pretty clear. And the fact is because Republicans decided to play political with Keystone, their action essentially forced the administration to deny the permit process because they insisted on a time frame in which it was impossible to completely approve the pipeline," Carney said when asked about the pipeline by ABC News' Jake Tapper.

Later in the briefing, Carney says it is the Republicans' fault.

Jake Tapper: "How can you say that you have an all the above on approach if the President turned down the Keystone pipeline? And you blame the Republicans for making it political."

Carney: "But the President didn't turn down the Keystone pipeline. There was a process in place, with long precedent, run out of the State Department because of the issue of the pipeline crossing an international boundary, that required an amount of time for proper for review after an alternate route was deemed necessary through Nebraska at the request of the Republican Governor of Nebraska and other stakeholders in Nebraska and the region that needed to play out, to be done appropriately. You can't review and approve a pipeline, the route for which doesn't even exist.

"The Republicans were the ones who unfortunately decided because they were looking for scalps, I guess, or wins in a situation where they somehow found themselves on the wrong side of cutting taxes for 160 million Americans last December. They decided to play politics with this decision and attack the payroll tax cut extension. Even though it was made clear by the State Department that doing so would make it impossible for them to conduct the review responsibly, they did it anyway knowing what the result would be."

Here is a link that might be useful: link


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

hayseed:

I guess you chose to avoid explaining where the keystone XL pipeline supply line would impact the price of fuel if 30 million gallons of crude/day is indeed "a drop in the bucket" according to you.
I'm deferring to the self appointed oil supply expert here and just asking for an explanation.
Your diversion about dancing queens is rather strange only makes me wonder about you but I don't want to get personal or go down that road. Just answer my question since the price of oil and gasoline is something that we are all concerned about.
Will Keystone XL really lower the price of gasoline for consumers in the MidWestern states?

Regarding my OP, do you really believe that Republicans in positions of power in the oil industry would not do something to tilt the election if they could, such as temporarily manipulating the price of gasoline? How do you know they wouldn't?


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

David, there are fuel efficient vehicles out there with 4WD, my problem with most though is cost. My '01 F150 supercrew is paid for. The ac is shot so in the summer we sweat or stay home but it also seats 6. We would consider an upgrade to a fuel efficient model when one could be purchased used at a reasonable price, and only if it seats 6. Granted, that truck only goes the 100 mile round trip into town once a month or less, our Camry is our commute vehicle.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

It has always ben like this.

They pay local farmers here to close dairy farms down to drive up milk prices!
They shot over 600 cows on my friends farm area and dumped them into a ditch to keep the beef prices high.
They turn corn fields into energy savers instead of using them for grains to keep bread and cereal prices up.

Why why not Fuel?

They have enough oil reserve and output here to drive prices down, but instead EXPORT the domestic oil acroos seas like to China and other developing countries while we suffer and sit back as gas prices soar through the roof.
We sit here in New England begging for help to stay warm with oil prices per gallon higher than ever, and no ONE gives a s....t

Try buying the same bag of groceries you once did 3 months ag and see that it cost you another 20 dollars for the same stuff now.

Sick!

Mike


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

David I guess what I was referring to fuel efficient being a hybrid. I am sure you are probably thinking you laugh at weather, I have been to Co although you have some severe weather until you hit our bridges, and hilly topography you have not seen a real dangerous situation. light weight vehicle is not what you want to be in during the winter.

I have even been in Michigan during very scary winter weather event and had more control than in Pa. We are animal unto not many others.

I would consider the Subaru it is the only one heavy enough when you slide into a guard rail down a hill you might survive. or When someone with something that is really heavy slides into you there is a chance of survival.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

What you keep forgetting, is that after a three year environmental impact study. The pipeline was approved all the way up through the State Dept. as of August 2011. In Oct. of 2011, Sec. of State Clinton said an announcement would be made regarding the approval of the pipeline. So sometime between October 2011, and January 2012, a three month period, all of those studies that took three years, were null and void, and politics had nothing to do with it? If not for these spiraling gas prices, my bet would be ...ta da...big announcement in October, right before the election, president approves Keystone pipeline, and tells us how he wants to help the middle class with rising gas prices.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

So, Mrskjun, if a three year EPA study finds its ok to build pipeline from point A to point B, then they change the route from point A to point C but they aren't exactly sure how and where that new one will go, then they should just use the first EPA proposal? That would be illegal. But you know that.

marquest, I've owned and driven 4 wheel drive vehicles for the past 40 years. I've lived in places where the roads were so awful that in three years, I never even disengaged the 4X4, just shifted from low range to high and back again, depending on the load and what we were towing. I've gotten stuck in the mud, snow, and high-centered the things more times than I care to remember, and I've been in a couple of accidents with them.

All things considered, the bigger they are, the harder they fall. :-)


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Heri, I wasn't ignoring you. Just savoring some of the wonderful memories from last night.

"In terms of what you consider a drop in the bucket (30 million gallons / 8 hour = 90 Million barrels/day) why should the Keystone XL pipeline make any difference whatsoever.

...

"I guess you chose to avoid explaining where the keystone XL pipeline supply line would impact the price of fuel if 30 million gallons of crude/day is indeed "a drop in the bucket" according to you.

Here's my understanding of all these big numbers.

*** The world consumes about 90 million barrels of oil each and every day.

*** The USA consumes about 20 million barrels of oil each and every day.

*** Obama released a total amount of 30 million barrels of oil. NOTE: Total, not each and every day.

Which translates into 30/90=1/3 of a day's worth of total world oil consumption. 1/3 of a day is 8 hours worth. Just so we understand these numbers. All that oil that Obama released back in the summer of 2011 kept the world happy for 8 hours. (And Koch? Their measly 4 tankers held about 8 million gallons, less than 1/10th of a day's worth of world oil consumption.)

Keystone? I haven't put any thought into it at all. Everything I know about it, I learned here on this forum.

But, if you insist on my thoughts, I'd imagine that, if the pipeline indeed moves 1 million gallons of oil daily from Canada to our country, it will indeed make very little difference to the price of gasoline at the local gas station.

-------------------------

Hey, Marshall, when we get it all figured out, let's not go to Vegas. Let's take a tour of the Bayou country down in Louisiana. (Chase, you still on the road?) We'll do it around Mardi Gras season and we'll just go from one Cajun Dance to the next. I think there are Casinos down there, maybe even on a riverboat on the Mississippi. That's what I wanted to do with my life when I was young: Gamble on the Riverboats, win a lot of money and break women's hearts as I said goodbye.

We'll pick up a couple of hot Louisiana women, (Mrskjun and Demi), as we pass through. (I think Demi may have a crush on you.)

C'mon, Marshall, tell us how to manipulate the markets. Please, I want to see the Big Easy.

Hay


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

my bet would be ...ta da...big announcement in October, right before the election, president approves Keystone pipeline, and tells us how he wants to help the middle class with rising gas prices.

I don't think that President Obama would suggest that Keystone xl will lower gasoline prices. Much has been written to the contrary. Some people say....that Keystone XL may actually increase gasoline prices in the Midwest.

Here is a link that might be useful: Keystone won't even be a drop in the bucket


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I'm psyched.

After I posted, I think Demi's actually in Mississippi?

Close enough.

Marshall, you teach me how to manipulate betting markets and I'll teach you how to dance. Me, you and wild women.

If it's Wednesday, it's West Coast Swing.

Bye, now. I hope you all solve all the world's problems.

Hay


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

David, to be clear it won't be Canada exporting the oil delivered from Canada, via the pipeline, it will be Amercan oil companies,

Mrs, where do you think the oil that will be delivered to the The Gulf Coast via the pipeline is destined for? Not to a pump near you!


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Keystone XL = dynamite in the mailbox.
It will cross a major aquifer, rivers, creeks, streams and land that will all be ruined by any spill. At the volumes they plan to pump it, the damage will be instantaneous and take a while to stop. Remediation will be partial just like it has been in the Gulf.
The only gain will be by the oil companies (who seem to owe no allegiance to the U.S.). We are already exporting enough gasoline that if it were kept here could really make a difference in our gas prices. Instead, it will be shipped to other countries and markets while we take the environmental risks.
Chase pointed out that they pay as much or more for gas and they have unlimited oil in their back yard. Let them revive their refineries and build the pipelines to ship their products elsewhere.
We need to re-tool: bio-diesel can be co-generated off human wastes, takes relatively little space, and a whole new industry could be developed making new engines, re-equipping our present rolling stock, etc.
We used to be considered a smart, innovative nation. I think we are stuck in antiquity.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Steve, oil companies "seem" to have no allegience...understatement of the year.

However, I really need to keep reiterating, it is not Canadian oil per se...it's the oil companies! Canada, as in the governmet, isn't in the refinery business, it's the oil companies and THEY don't want to build new refineries here. They want to use the ones they have in the Gulf!

To be honest many Canadians, including me, would like to see the refineries here. It would mean many new jobs. Don't get me wrong the oil sands are disgusting to me but they aren't going anywhere so I'd rather see the jobs here.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Do you know what they did to a man who lives two towns over from who whom invented a solar panel that actually gave his car energy to drive without fuel?

They confiscated his solar panels and told him it was against the law. Imagine if we came out with vehicles that could run without fuel?

The BIG OIL companies would be out of business! It's no wonder they have the techonology and yet refuse to let it hits the markets! They had it years ago and still continue to force us to depend on oil/gas. Get it? It will never change.
We are screwed and this is the new life we face.
Our poor children.

Greed will always prevail in the commodities market. There is nothing we can do but complain. Who's listening? Who is going to make a difference? Good luck voting for someone full of empty promises again.
Hey if we vote for Gingrich, he says he'll lower the gas prices down to under 2 dollars a gallon? Hummm.

Mike


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Wonder how he's going to do that....regulate the oil industry? As if.......


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RE: The game changer -- $5.00 per gallon gasoline

chase, I certainly wasn't denigrating your country or people. I know it is the oil companies in charge and the governments in awe/fear of them.
They seem to be the only ones spending money on alternative fuel development. They know oil is a finite resource and want a monopoly on the next fuel.
Governments will just totter along like a bull with a ring through his nose. We could all hope for better.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Mike, who confiscated this man's solar panels? Men in Black?


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

chase, do you know something that the Dept. of Energy doesn't know?

'An Energy Department report from its expert Dr. Carmine Difiglio stated that the Keystone XL pipeline would lower gas prices in the U.S. Gulf Coast, East Coast and Midwest. It also stated that oil from the Keystone XL pipeline would be refined in the United States, contrary to the claims of some of the project�s opponents. The United States retains 99 percent of the crude oil and uses 97 percent of gasoline refined in the country.'

Here is a link that might be useful: link


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

........and a DOD report said there was weappns of mass destructions in


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Thu, Feb 23, 12 at 8:39

You were reading my mind Chase ... :)


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Oh good, next time I'll ask you first chase. You think the DOD knows much about oil?


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Thu, Feb 23, 12 at 9:43

"woosh"


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

My thoughts exactly ohiomom. What in the world does the DOD have to do with the DOE? These are Obama's people..think Solyndra!!


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

How about what the pipeline company themselves say?:

" At the moment, there's an oversupply of tarsands crude in the Midwest, which has depressed gas prices there. If the pipeline gets built so that crude can easily be sent overseas, that excess will immediately disappear and gas prices for 15 states across the middle of the country will suddenly rise. Says who? Says the companies trying to build the thing. Transcanada Pipeline's rationale for investors, and their testimony to Canadian officials, included precisely this point: removing the "oversupply - and the resulting "price discount" would raise their returns by $2 to $4 billion a year.

According to the National Wildlife Federation, that would translate to about $3 for an average 15-gallon fill-up - as independent energy economist Philip Verleger put it, with Keystone the industry "will be able to use its market power to raise the heavy crude price to Midwest refiners above the level that would prevail in a competitive market." Certainly that's been the case in the past: Stephen Kretzmann of Oil Change International recently calculated that "over the last two decades the U.S. has almost tripled the amount of Canadian oil we've imported into the US, and during that time average gasoline price has more than tripled." The Midwest states most at risk of higher prices if Keystone is built include some of the hardest hit economically in the country: Michigan, Ohio, Illinois, Indiana, Wisconsin.

In other words, the Keystone Pipeline is among other things an attempt to manipulate prices - which may not come as too great a shock to an American public used to watching the fossil fuel industry manipulate prices."


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Thu, Feb 23, 12 at 10:05

No MrsK not our thoughts exactly ... what Chase was pointing out and apparently went over your head (woosh) was that the government LIES !

Sorry not buying anything that comes out of their mouths ... :)


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Well david, someone is wrong. We at least know that much.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

I live in the area where there are large natural gas deposits. For years and years, natural gas was the least expensive fuel around - inexpensive to heat your home, people even modified their pickup trucks to run on natural gas because once the modification was installed, it cost only a few bucks to drive.

And then the pipeline was built, sending the natural gas down to El Paso, and the prices quadrupled.

And then the western Wyoming gas fields expanded, so they went through, 10 years later, and replaced the pipe with a larger pipe, to ship more of that down to El Paso.

We can talk all you want about what the private land owners think about having pipeline crews go through their land, and we can talk about how the electric co-op heavily subsidizes the pipe line, at our expense, how the gas companies dodge property taxes, and about the economic 'benefit' that it brings. It ain't much.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

It may be that the oil will be refined in the States but it will be sold to the highest bidder. ...make no mistake.

Anyone who believes that the oil companies will sell gas at a reduced price to the American market is beyond naive. Why on earth would the?

Get over it, just like the rest of the world you will pay world prices for oil and gas thanks to the free market system which we all love so much.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

It may be that the oil will be refined in the States but it will be sold to the highest bidder. ...make no mistake.

Anyone who believes that the oil companies will sell gas at a reduced price to the American market is beyond naive. Why on earth would the?

Get over it, just like the rest of the world you will pay world prices for oil and gas thanks to the free market system which we all love so much.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

While it makes sense that the product will be sold to the highest bidder and not necessarily affect domestic fuel prices in a positive way, wouldn't this pipeline project create jobs?


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

re jobs, we discussed this earlier - at the link

Here is a link that might be useful: link


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

hay said;
*** The world consumes about 90 million barrels of oil each and every day.
*** The USA consumes about 20 million barrels of oil each and every day.
*** Obama released a total amount of 30 million barrels of oil.

Hayseed:
Surely you know hay that Obama's release of the oil was to counter a temporary dip in supply, and was not meant to dramatically alter the price of oil over time.
FYI it was actually coordinated with another 30 million barrels of oil, and was done to help counteract a short term loss from a disruption in oil supply from Libya, which could have impacted price from speculation.
it worked out pretty well, but you would have to go through about three or four pages of google results and comb through Fox news and Right wing sites to get read something that reveals how this was politicized. It seems to me that this was a proactive and very reasonable move made by President Obama to address a possible supply interruption that could have driven the oil market up based on the speculation about Libyan supplies being shut down.

=============================

"The Energy Department has said that it will release 30 million barrels of oil from the nations Strategic Petroleum Reserve, citing supply disruptions threatening the global economy and hailing from the unrest in Libya and other nations.

If all 30 million barrels are sold, it would be the largest sale from the reserve in history.

The release is part of a coordinated effort with other members of the International Energy Agency that will send a total of 60 million barrels of crude oil into world markets over the next 30 days, according to the Energy Department.

The decision comes amid signs that the economic recovery is faltering which is a political threat to the White House heading into 2012 and concerns that high energy prices are acting as a brake on growth.

"We are taking this action in response to the ongoing loss of crude oil due to supply disruptions in Libya and other countries and their impact on the global economic recovery," said Energy Secretary Steven Chu in a statement. "As we move forward, we will continue to monitor the situation and stand ready to take additional steps if necessary," he added.

Top House Republicans bashed the decision, calling it an inappropriate, political move that ignores what they call undue barriers to domestic drilling.

"Frankly, it's pathetic that Democrats not only block domestic energy production at every turn, President Obama is now drawing down on our nation's strategic oil reserve which is intended for national emergencies, not as a political tool when a President is feeling heat over high gas prices," said House Majority Whip Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.) in a statement."

Yea right, the decision was all based upon politics.

Some of these Republicans will never trust Obama and have nothing but hatred for him so no surprise that they attacked his decision here and accused him of ulterior motives, but defend Koch bros. and oil commodities speculation as having no impact whatsoever on price. This talking point about Obama's release of oil which was dredged up by someone from last year, is just one example of that.

Here is a link that might be useful: Obama Releases Oil from Strategic Reserve


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Thanks for the link, David.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Thu, Feb 23, 12 at 22:12

I think we are stuck in antiquity.

...no we "are stuck on stupid"


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

O'Reilly had a really good rap on how we should stop exporting our oil, and why that would help with our rising fuel costs, if anyone's interested in constructive thought on this subject. I'm sure you can find it on the internet.


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RE: The game changer - $5.00 per gallon gasoline

Great thread, I come back every two days to catch up.

Great cajun music and group Hay, thanks for the link.


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