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40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

Posted by WxDano none (My Page) on
Thu, Feb 21, 13 at 23:00

Ding-dang lazy takers:

The minimum wage would be $16.50 an hour -" $33,000 a year -" if it had kept up with the growth of productivity since 1968. To put the effect of this a different way, 40% of Americans now make less than the 1968 minimum wage, had the minimum wage kept pace with productivity gains.

To put this even another way, the average American’s living standard would be much, much higher today if wages had not decoupled from productivity gains - " with the gains all going to the 1% instead of being shared by We, the People. If wages had kept pace we wouldn’t feel the terrible squeeze that everyone in the middle class is feeling. (Never mind what has happened to those below the middle class.)

This is one more way to understand the effect of income and wealth inequality on each of us. The 1%/99% thing is real. When you hear that the 6 Walmart heirs have more wealth than 1/3 (or more) of all Americans combined, it is real. When you hear that the people on the Forbes list of the 400 wealthiest Americans have more wealth than half of all Americans combined, it is real.[italics original, bold added]

Tsk. If only they worked a little harder.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

Source is missing here.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

If you click on the blue, underlined passages, you can read the sources.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

Elvis: it's called a hyper-link & when you see something in blue (generally) you can just click on it & it will take you to the source/subject.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

Back in the late 60's I had a few a jobs in the local mall that paid minimum wage which was $1.65/hr. back then. That was not enough money even then for a teenager living with parents to do much with let alone for someone to support themselves.
I am in favor of raising it to $9 or $10 an hour.

I do not think that would address the wealth inequality we have in this country. Unfortunately I think they have to pay taxes at a progressively higher rate, including on Capital gains
to even begin to narrow that gap, even incrementally.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

Heri's right... the gap between cost of living and wage have not kept even a reasonable pace. Our job market is gone, taken to other nations that accept a lot less in wage... those who can do squirrel vast sums in other countries' banks... there's been no reinvestment in this nation for all intents and purposes... markets have crashed, etc... people aren't spending money because they do not make enough to put back into our economy. But most of all, I think the way that corporations are siphoning off the top and not reinvesting is hurting us as a nation.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

I am in favor of a much higher minimum wage for workers that are non-dependents, not living at home and supported by mom and dad.

The minimum wage should start at $18 per hour for non-college graduates. College graduates should receive a minimum wage of $21 per hour.

For students paying their way through an accredited college, all wages should be free of federal, state and local income tax. Don't worry, they will pump that money back into the economy. Trust me.

And, retired people on SS or previous retirement plans should be permitted to work as many hours at any rate of pay without a penalty, just like the federal and state employees do. Mature consumers are a vital asset right now because they have money to spend. I say let them earn more without penalty and they will continue to return it to the economy.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

I am in favor of a much higher minimum wage for workers that are non-dependents, not living at home and supported by mom and dad.

Different rules for different people make it very tough to implement.

Of course giving them more favorable tax treatment can be done when their form indicates "they are claimed by a dependent by another person".

And, retired people on SS or previous retirement plans should be permitted to work as many hours at any rate of pay without a penalty, just like the federal and state employees do.

How is this possible for federal and state employees? Is it because they didn't participate in SS?


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

Thanks, WxDano. This is exactly what some of us have been trying to explain here for a long time. And the only response we get from conservatives is we're envious of people that are richer than we are. We're lazy and not willing to work harder. If we just spent less time posting here, we'd be able to make more money and stop complaining. And on and on and on.

Of course, the usuals will not believe any of this because they know (or heard of) someone born in poverty that got rich! Therefore, it's not true.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

The real minimum wage has always been zero - unemployed or unemployable.

The real issues many job seekers have are pre-qualifying for jobs, getting hired, keeping jobs and working enough hours.

Many workers make substantially more than the minimum wage, however make very little daily, weekly or annually as they work part-time, temporary, seasonally, or they're frequently laid off or terminated.

Total employee overhead has priced many out of the job market, so many work in the underground economy for less money.

We know many mid skilled and even some higher skilled workers willing to work for very little (some even free) just to get out of the house, stay in shape, keep their skills sharp, keep up with changes, keep helpers busy, feel like productive members of society etc.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

Then there's the old myth that higher minimum wage means fewer jobs. Most manufacturing jobs are not minimum wage.
But every one will repeat John Boehners fallacious assertions.
You have clowns like Michelle Bachmann who proposed eliminating all minimum wages that way there would be no unemployment (brain surgeon)
You had Tom Emmer trying to lower the wage of tip earners because everyone know most bartenders & waitresses make $100,000,

Here is a link that might be useful: false


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

Mark James, I don't know what all your typed words have to do with the productivity gains in America not being translated to the workforce, but thanks!


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Fri, Feb 22, 13 at 9:55

Well lets see, we pay everyone a "living wage" and they in turn pay more taxes and do not have to turn to a social program (tax funded) to survive until the following month.

This to me is a "win win" for the country.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

On the topic of productivity:

Productivity, much of it gained due to downsizing, automation, robotics, computerization, communications, outsourcing, self service, specialized/tools equipment, better pre-employment/post employment culling, better management etc has put many out of work and/or devalued their labor.

The education, skills, knowledge, experience and performance of many job seekers and workers hasn't kept up with the ever changing job market, hence hasn't kept up with inflation and higher standards of living.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

This to me is a "win win" for the country.

Agree. Let's bring back Roosevelt's WPA.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

Productivity, much of it gained due to downsizing, automation, robotics, computerization, communications, outsourcing, self service, specialized/tools equipment, better pre-employment/post employment culling, better management etc has put many out of work and/or devalued their labor.

"The two great aims of industrialism - replacement of people by technology and concentration of wealth into the hands of a small plutocracy - seem close to fulfillment." -- Wendell Berry


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

One of the more interesting aspects of working in some of the more 'enlightened' 3rd world countries was their take on efficiency and productivity.

If one of your greatest resources is unemployed people, they'd discourage technology by taxing the heck out of it, and offer all kinds of incentives to hire more people instead.

As in example, it cost about 1/3 as much to hire 50 guys with picks, shovels, and wheelbarrows than bring in a backhoe to do the same work.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

One of our largest businesses is more productive than ever, primarily due to numerous investments in technology, however profits haven't scaled with productivity, nor inflation.

We use increasing productivity to stay competitive, stay in business and grow by providing lower margin, yet higher volume products/services.

One of the consequences is that many of our competitors have gone out of business.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

If one of your greatest resources is unemployed people, they'd discourage technology by taxing the heck out of it, and offer all kinds of incentives to hire more people instead.

As in example, it cost about 1/3 as much to hire 50 guys with picks, shovels, and wheelbarrows than bring in a backhoe to do the same work.

Years ago I used to do a lot of digging and trenching by hand as equipment owners/operators wanted too much money and/or locations were remote, had limited access, terrain was steep, they couldn't risk hitting underground storage tanks, tearing up lawns etc.

Many also dug illegally without plans, pernits, variances, inspections and/or violated environmental laws, so they didn't want to attract attention with commercial trucks, equipment trailers, backhoes etc.

I owned my own equipment since I was a teenager, but often wouldn't use it for numerous reasons.

These days many residents can't even get unemployed neighborhood residents to shovel snow, shovel roofs, rake leaves, mow lawns etc, hence why most of this work is performed by professionals.

The last time one of our customers hired hand diggers, I ran to get lunch for the two guys - 2 large grinders each, plus snacks, coffee and Gatorade. When I got back to the jobsite the customer's property manager told me they said "Fu%k This", called a friend for a ride and went home. The job was only about 1/3 complete at the time.

They would have made $250 each, not bad money at the time, plus the digging was easy. I finished the job in 4 hours although I had stitches in my hand, so I had to take it easy.

Many manual laborers of the past had more leverage as they had a strong work ethic, they were mentally/physically tougher and were in much better physical condition.

These days much of the job seeking population can't pass relatively simple physical fitness assessments, nor background checks, drug tests, DMV checks etc.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

One of my first jobs overseas was working with a crew of 80 odd guys from Burkina Faso - older than me, some seriously tough guys with tribal facial scars and front teeth filed into points. So one morning, they all down their tools and gather around me, looking really serious, a couple guys carrying their machetes. One guy comes forward to translate.

They wondered if I could bring a boom box and play music.

This post was edited by david52 on Fri, Feb 22, 13 at 15:48


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

Esh,

In Ohio, public sector employees can retire and rehire without penalty and no limits on earnings. It's called double dipping. You can also retire and rehire elsewhere and earn any amount without penalty. That can begin at age 55.

And you already know the limits of SS. Age 62 and maximum earnings up to $14,160.00 per year or face a penalty.

And adding this:

Don't think that $9 or $10 per hour is going to put anybody in a better place. You can't buy a house or a new car on those poverty wages.

And, if the minimum wage does increase, the price of goods will increase. So..

This post was edited by brushworks on Fri, Feb 22, 13 at 16:51


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

So there is a follow-up post with some charts that help in explaining what went wrong in our country; hint" it ain't no lack of no personal responsibili-tea:


Note the years of the big upturns. We used to regulate these people for a reason.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Tue, Feb 26, 13 at 2:34

Wall Street Attacks!!


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

The graphs above are sobering. The second one showing that during all those "good" years, the average income in the non-financial world barely budged. I had no idea it was that stagnant.

And the 1st one proving what we've been saying here for a long time -- compensation is no longer tied to productivity. So, the more productive we are, the richer the rich get. And that's how we ended up with the great divide between the 1% and the rest.

It's really very sad.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

Dano, thanks for the graphs. Pictures worth 1,000 words and all that.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world."

There was a Reagan deregulation bump and a Clinton change-regulation bump.

We used to regulate these people to keep them in control. Everyone used to know this. When we use the phrase 'take the country back', its not from wimmins or blacks, its from financiers and bankers.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

I don't understand how it is possible for every business to have the resources to pay what politicians say should be the minimum wage. How does that work?


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

"Well lets see, we pay everyone a "living wage" and they in turn pay more taxes and do not have to turn to a social program (tax funded) to survive until the following month."

Those people also have what we call purchasing power, and will recirculate earnings through the economy... another point in the win-win.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

"Well lets see, we pay everyone a "living wage" and they in turn pay more taxes and do not have to turn to a social program (tax funded) to survive until the following month."

"Well lets see, we pay everyone a "living wage"...

How?


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

nik - I'm no economist nor historian so this is simply my opinion. Back in the old days, people earning the minimum wage were better off than they are now. The minimum wage not only has not kept pace with productivity, in real dollars it is below what it was in 1968 (which would be $10.64 in real dollars). And, federal income tax brackets were much higher than they are now.

So, logically, someone has benefited by all of this and it's not the worker. Who could it be? Hmmm. Perhaps the business owner, CEOs, etc. In other words, the "how" would have to be accomplished by those who have benefited to allow their income from greatly increasing profits to stagnate for awhile while their workers catch up. And, yes, prices on some things would probably go up. But, really, hotel room prices and restaurant prices are not in a category of "needs" - these industries are where most minimum wage workers are concentrated. I doubt that Sheldon Adelson's or other CEO's lifestyles would be altered if they paid their employees a higher minimum wage.

Here is a link that might be useful: 1968's $1.60/hr. equals $10.64 in 2013


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

"Well lets see, we pay everyone a "living wage"...

How?

By paying employees a living wage. How not? I don't understand the question.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

Posted by circuspeanut 5 (My Page) on
Tue, Feb 26, 13 at 13:59

"Well lets see, we pay everyone a "living wage"...

How?

By paying employees a living wage. How not? I don't understand the question.

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It should be obvious that the "how" means, how it is sustainable?

How does a business pay people more and still be able to retain all it's employees? For some businesses, paying more means firing employees or not hiring new employees.

For some businesses, it means reduced benefits.

Businesses will raise the cost of their goods and services to patrons when forced to pay more in wages--more than what the employee's efforts are worth on the open market.

Then the cost of living goes up.

That's the "HOW"--how is it done without causing more problems it's supposed to solve?

This post was edited by demifloyd on Tue, Feb 26, 13 at 14:06


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Tue, Feb 26, 13 at 14:05

>How not? I don't understand the question<

Corporate apologists don't understand how what right wing corporate media feeds them could not be true. Hence the question.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

Corporate apologists don't understand how what right wing corporate media feeds them could not be true. Hence the question.

Apparently they are unable to grok the charts too. There might be some ideas in those data.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

How about a trade-off? Businesses no longer are burdened with paying their employees' health insurance, but they must pay a higher wage.

I've never understood why we saddle businesses with health insurance in the first place. How can they compete with other first world nations with national health insurance?


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Tue, Feb 26, 13 at 14:30

It is needed and has to be paid for under any circumstance. If it is provided by for profit private companies that sell it to other businesses then those companies make profits. If it is instead provided by the government then nobody is making those insurance company profits. Unless the government buys it from private companies, same as hiring contractors for public works projects or defense.

Which has worked out really well, of course.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

I've never understood why we saddle businesses with health insurance in the first place. How can they compete with other first world nations with national health insurance?

This is one of the arguments the apologists and troglodytes tried desperately to keep out of the debate, in the guise of avoiding th' soshelizm.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

Posted by chisue (My Page) on
Tue, Feb 26, 13 at 14:17

How about a trade-off? Businesses no longer are burdened with paying their employees' health insurance, but they must pay a higher wage.

I've never understood why we saddle businesses with health insurance in the first place. How can they compete with other first world nations with national health insurance?

*

Exactly.

Access to health care should not be dependent on employment.

Employers should also not be required to pay health care insurance.

We should insure that people that can't afford health insurance have access to low cost, government subsidized health care.

People that want additional policies with more coverage should be able to buy it on the open market at at any age--even after medicare age.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

Anyone every read the objections from business over each protection/benefit added for the workers? Child labor laws, minimum wage, 40-hour week, overtime benefit - as a few examples.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

People that want additional policies with more coverage should be able to buy it on the open market at at any age--even after medicare age.

We've just discussed on another live thread where the market is a poor provider for public goods. Yet the ideology can't grok it.

Shocking, surely.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

Did those asking "how?" even bother to look at the charts posted above?

I'm thinking no.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

Facts aren't important when there are words to be used as weapons, Jill.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

"Well lets see, we pay everyone a "living wage"...

How?

"By paying employees a living wage. How not? I don't understand the question."

How will you do that?


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

How will you do that?

READ THE CHARTS ABOVE

Yes, I'm yelling.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

"By paying employees a living wage. How not? I don't understand the question."

How will you do that?

How? The same way businesses ensure that they satisfy their shareholders with ever-increasing dividends. Offer good products/services at a good price. Guarantee profit by underwriting it with a skilled workforce who earn job security. Nationalized healthcare would certainly help tremendously by relieving one enormous burden on the employer.

The "how" is obvious -- it seems you are really asking "why". That's an ethical issue, and if you have no moral problem with the obscene exploitation of labor as currently practiced in this country, I doubt any answer will satisfy.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

why Demi , you socialist.!! with your comments "

"Access to health care should not be dependent on employment.

Employers should also not be required to pay health care insurance.

We should insure that people that can't afford health insurance have access to low cost, government subsidized health care.

People that want additional policies with more coverage should be able to buy it on the open market at at any age--even after medicare age."

You just described the Australian health care system!!!


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

Dockside, back in 1968, we also didn't have earned income tax credit, refundable child tax credit, etc.

You have to consider the refundable tax credits that someone making minimum wage receives as well as their pay.

I agree minimum wage should be raised but everyone needs to recognize that the increased cost will be passed on to consumers.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

I suspect Nik, is focusing on what constitutes a "living".......I may be wrong but often Nik will be rather indirect with her questions. A bit of a guessing game.

It would have to be arbitrarily defined and then adjusted to inflation.

As far as an increase in minimum wages being passed on to the consumer goes....you mean the same way all other cost increases are passes on to the consumer?

Why would we balk at a wage increase for our fellow man being passed on to us when we readily accept an increase in transportation, fuel, raw materials etc?


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

I'm not balking at the wage increase. I'm not sure that an increase in minimum wage would mean those making minimum wage would see a "better life".

It's not just those workers who make the minimum wage now that would see an increase in hourly pay. If minimum wage is increased from the current Federal rate of $7.25 an hour to $10.00 an hour, the workers currently making $10 and hour would expect a raise to something like $12.75 an hour. The people earning $12.75 would expect a raise and on and on. Raising minimum wage has a ripple effect across everyone's pay. Those costs are going to be passed on to consumers just like an increase in the cost of gas, materials, insurance, health care, etc.

I do believe that minimum wage should be raised but I hope that everyone recognizes that raising minimum wage has far reaching impact beyond those who are currently making minimum wage.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

One of my nieces performs jobs that were performed by 2 full-time workers and 1 part-time worker only several years ago.

Even with the large reduction in labor costs and increase in productivity, the business she works for has a hard time competing with larger more efficient businesses that move much higher volumes of products at lower margins. Although they're adding products and services, they're cutting not adding workers due to efficiency and competition.

She also works a part-time job at a food production business that's currently increasing plant size, truck size, raising storage shelf height, plus automating and computerizing which will likely cut the workforce in half. They're hiring more truck drivers and salesmen, but cutting production workers, material handlers and office workers.

Her employers toured a similar business with their automation people and efficiency experts that move 3X the units with roughly 1/4 the man hours even though they move a larger variety of products and more bulk - heavier and larger products.

Employers are doing a better job of matching laborers to changing hourly, daily, weekly, monthly and unexpected demand, so they're using more part-timers, temps and floaters.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

I figure if they raise minimum wage which will raise many other wages that I can raise rents, leases and charges for professional services substantially.

Of course workers will have to work harder and/or smarter to find and keep jobs as well.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

I'm not sure that an increase in minimum wage would mean those making minimum wage would see a "better life".

The trickle down effect of charging more for goods will boost the economy. The more money in the pocket of a minimum wage earner the more goods will move off the shelves.

Smart shoppers will always be able to shop the sales, discounts, closeout if they have more money to spend.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

The trickle down effect of charging more for goods will boost the economy.

Crunched consumers with no job security spending savings on trinkets or essentials isn't going to boost the economy. We know how that works. Don't believe the wishful headlines in the biness section of the newspaper.

More and more folks are starting to wonder if we are entering post-growth economics - what the ecological economists have been warning about for decades - as our population numbers run up against resource constraints, and too many financiers' fingers in the economy for too long.

There is a TED conference going on right now debating this topic.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

Speaking of growth, in many regions they're over-saturated with similar businesses selling similar products competing for a share of limited income/savings/equity/credit, however they're building more and more businesses/stores and/or expanding existing businesses/stores.

The good news is the brutal competition for limited income/savings/equity/credit has led to some very low prices.

We see more sales, loss leaders and other promotions than ever.

Eventually many of the weaker players will be culled out.

After paying rising property taxes, electric, insurance, heating oil, gas, diesel, water/sewer, rent, cable, phone, broadband etc, many don't have much left to stimulate the economy.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

A couple years ago we gave one of our employees a $2 per hour raise.

That week they received a rent increase notice from their landlord raising their rent by $200 per month.

I told them if they almost keep up with inflation they're dong much better than much of the population.

Many don't have the education, knowledge, skills, experience and investments to keep up with inflation, so they have to cut expenses.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

That was a great link, Dano. Not just the article you referenced, but there were lots of others that looked interesting. Thanks for posting.

"Crunched consumers with no job security spending savings on trinkets or essentials isn't going to boost the economy."

At last. I knew we would eventually find something we could agree on.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

  • Posted by RpR_ 3-4 (My Page) on
    Wed, Feb 27, 13 at 15:36

That is what happens when you have illegal aliens working for sub-standard wages.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

Denial... is a river in Egypt... sheesh.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

Washington State's minimum wage is higher than the federal one as it is linked to inflation. It is about $9.25, I think. Of course, business owners whined and cried that it would mean employees losing jobs, prices increasing, yada, yada, yada. Hasn't happened. Some things may cost more than in a neighboring state, but wages, overall, are higher here. We have several corporations who sell internationally, so what their employees are paid doesn't seem to matter (Boeing, Microsoft, Amazon, Starbucks, Costco, and many others who are first in their field). A rising tide lifts all boats and this also applies to unions. Most wages paid in Washington state are higher than average, I think, and that is due to Boeing's employees being unionized. Because of their good wages, other companies have to pay good wages, unionized or not, to get good employees.

Off topic, but I noticed that a couple of posts and a reply to it on another thread were deleted. I got a message from Gardenweb with no explanation but all I can think of is that I posted about paid trolls. I'm at a loss as to why those posts were deleted as they were quite mild compared to some of the things that people post about each other. Maybe this one will be deleted, too, since it contains those words. Or was I reported by someone? This has never happened to me so I quite mystified.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

Colorado's is tied to inflation as well. Which meant that in 2009, it went down a few cents following the great Bush Recession.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

In many businesses there's a point where costs can't be passed to customers without losing customers that opt out, consume less, trade down, or shop lower priced more efficient competitors.

Much depends on the overhead, business model, demand, competition, state, region, county, town, village, city, business location, time of year/month/week - too much to list. We can charge a small fortune for products/services in some areas, yet not make a sale in others - even at, or below cost. The same applies to the time of year, month etc.

To stay competitive, many business will eliminate unnecessary workers, fire unproductive workers, use more part-timers, temps and floaters, plus employ more automation.

Many will squeeze more performance from fewer workers. I just about cringe when I see how grossly inefficient and poorly managed many businesses we use/shop are in comparison to our own businesses. Many are using 2, 3 or more workers for work we perform with a single worker.

We'd warn, suspend, demote,re-train or fire many poor performing employees we encounter on a weekly, often daily basis. Often it's not the workers' fault, but the fault of management, owners etc.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

This whole 'temporary work' thing - at a professional level its called 'short term contract' is increasingly becoming the norm.

Which is fine, as long as they can separate health insurance from employment. Retirement savings is another problem - those that are smart enough, and earn enough, can do it. But at the low end of the income scale, that's often a joke.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

Much of the workforce, especially the unskilled/low skilled workforce is temporary due to new hire washout, turnover, terminations, downsizing, layoffs, relocation, automation etc.

It's pretty common to see job applicants that have worked 3/4/5 different jobs in the past year.

Our biggest temp employer is the booming underground economy as many have been regulated, or priced out of the job market and/or can't work on the books.

More and more workers receive much, if not most of their hours as unscheduled hours.

The floaters are somewhat of a just in time on demand workforce.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

Dockside, Would the state be better off if Bill Gates and the other fat cat CEOs had to pay a state income tax?


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

nik, yes, I think so. But, a couple of years ago there was an initiative to tax the incomes of people in high income brackets. I think that most of the high-income people living here supported it (we have lots of progressive millionaires/billionaires living here). But, it was defeated. The reason for the defeat was probably that most people thought that, once an income tax was in place, it would, in time, be extended to all income brackets. Then, Washington would have a very high state sales tax and an income tax, to boot. IIRC, I think I voted against it. If I did, it was for that very reason. It would have had to have had a provision for a commensurate reduction in the sales tax, I think, for it to have passed.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

At the link is a 5 min video about the wealth distribution in the US - based on that chart / bar graph with what people think it is, what they think it should be, and what it actually is.

I think its worth a watch - it brings up some new data. You may not agree with it, but currently, the video has gone 'viral' and an awful lot of people are seeing it - maybe next step the hardware store for pitch forks.

Particularly interesting is that the top 1% own 50% of the shares on the stock market. Remember, dividends and capital gains are still only taxed at 20%, up from 15%, with that horrible Obama.

Here is a link that might be useful: link to video


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

I was surprised to learn that several part-time cashiers/baggers/stockers/cleaners/cart wranglers we know are making almost $11 per hour.

The only rub is that their hours have been cut back, even though they have more duties and a greater workload.

Some are only averaging 2 4-hour shifts per week, even early in the food stamp cycle when their stores are busy.

Last month, one of the workers (an employees daughter) only worked 20 hours.

Four hour shifts make transportation and/or daycare very expensive as well.

Last week their was something on the news about cutbacks in daycare subsidies. They were interviewing some young mother that had to quit her job due to cutbacks.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

Blame Barry sattoro....he has ordered Ben bernaky to PRINT 1 TRILLION dollars this year thus devaluating the $ even more...China wont even buy american bonds anymore. I have no Federal bonds in my portfollio.

Just for the fun of it google fortune 200 companies and see where most have set up thier corporate head offices...most arnt in the USA because America has the highest corporate tax rate in Free world...they are walking with thier wallets.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

Normally, you'd be a scroll on by personality here on HT, Oil_Robb, but I get a surreptitious thrill at seeing how many grammatical errors, etc. can be contained in one post.

If you're going to use the name of Pres. Obama's stepfather as a pejorative - spell it correctly. It's SOETORO.

This isn't an optimal time to be buying Treasuries - interest rates have flatlined. Not all that long ago, I had lots of them, but I'm down to two which will be redeeming themselves and plowing into my checking account at the end of this month... then what to do with idle cash?

You might note, China added $7.9 billion to its Treasury holdings in October 2012, which which now stands at $1.16 trillion, the biggest foreign stockpile of Treasury debt in the world. Maybe they're taking some time off in picking up some of the US debt despite having tons of cash.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

I get a surreptitious thrill at seeing how many grammatical errors, etc. can be contained in one post.

Aha! A kindred spirit.

Unlike kind-hearted and patient duluth, I was not going to give a gentle reminder regarding Soetoro because of my own counting-the-variations game. I think that there have been at least two different (incorrect) spellings in the current spate of rants.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

So, being cool the first term was "Barak HUSSAIN Obama", and now, in the second term, its "Barak SOETORO Obama".

Its like keeping up with teenage girl fashions.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

All in all, we're probably in good company, Nancy.

I don't know from keeping up with teenage girl fashions. Seems more like spotting Waldo before your thumb and forefinger slide a down a tad when turning the picture book page.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

Please, please , please tell me this guy really isn't Canadian...please.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

Please, please , please tell me this guy really isn't Canadian...please.

Ha ha ha ha!

Finally, one of them is yours. Not ours.

Ha ha ha ha ha!!

Sorry, I feel for you. But we still out number you. We're still #1!

:-)


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

littleonefb: I was right! Your post and my response were deleted. I wonder how long it will take for Oil_Robb to get the moderators to delete this one. He obviously can't take any negative comments.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

I saw that video, David... it's not surprising at all. It's sad.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

Incredible....now we can just legislate wages. I just had a great idea. why don't we instantly transform poor countries into rich ones. we go in with our military, take them over, then pass a high minimum wage. problem solved. country is instantly transformed into a first world country.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

"Incredible....now we can just legislate wages. I just had a great idea. why don't we instantly transform poor countries into rich ones. we go in with our military, take them over, then pass a high minimum wage. problem solved. country is instantly transformed into a first world country."

Brilliant!!!

Beats my idea of sending some of our better union organizers into some of the poor countries. Why go that somewhat slower route when you can just legislate it and get instant results?

Just absolutely brilliant. My hat's off to you.

Hay


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While we're at it...

While we're at it, could we maybe put a cap on the price of a six pack of GOOD beer?

Hay


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

cornopean wrote,

Incredible....now we can just legislate wages. I just had a great idea. why don't we instantly transform poor countries into rich ones. we go in with our military, take them over, then pass a high minimum wage. problem solved. country is instantly transformed into a first world country.

Oh, that's simple. Because legislating a minimum wage is not effective in a poor country. You can do arithmetic, right?


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

Ok, forget the minimum wage. I sorta figured there was a good reason for it not to work.

(Your "economics" only works in rich countries?)

We live in a rich country. Can we put a cap on the price of a six pack of GOOD beer?( I'll take care of my own wages. My wages aren't the problem. The problem is the cost of living.)

Hay


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

The problem is the cost of living.)

*

That, and paying for the cost of living for others.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

You make the price cheap enough, I'll gladly share.

"You can do arithmetic, right?"

I'm pretty good with arithmetic. I've got a question for you. How do you come up with the "optimal minimum wage"? Is that arithmetic? Try to keep it simple for me. Is there a formula?

Thanks.

Hay


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While we're at it....

While we're at it, is there a name for the "economic laws of poor countries" as opposed to "economic laws of rich countries".

I'd like to look into that.

Thanks,

Hay


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

hayseedman wrote,

"You can do arithmetic, right?"

I'm pretty good with arithmetic. I've got a question for you. How do you come up with the "optimal minimum wage"? Is that arithmetic? Try to keep it simple for me. Is there a formula?

Implicit utopia fallacy here. Absence of a formula to compute the optimal minimum wage has no bearing on the susceptibility of a particular minimum wage to analysis.

This post was edited by Factotem on Mon, Mar 11, 13 at 11:50


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

hayseedman wrote,

While we're at it, is there a name for the "economic laws of poor countries" as opposed to "economic laws of rich countries".

I'd like to look into that.

No, though the values of the various parameters will, of course, be wildly different. Therefore, any policy under consideration may have wildly different outcomes. Is that confusing to you?


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

hayseedman wrote,

Your "economics" only works in rich countries?

You seem to have confused economics with the results of specific policies. Economics applies regardless; the results of a specific policy will depend on the parameters of the economy.

Arithmetic applies to any arithmetic formula, but the formula's value will vary depending on the parameters. That doesn't mean there's different rules of arithmetic for different formulas. Were you unaware of that?


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

"Absence of a formula to compute the opimal (sic (I know you like sic's))minimum wage has no bearing on the susceptibility of a particular minimum wage to analysis."

OK, we'll try that approach.

Is $5 better than $4?

Is $6 better than $5?

Is $7 better than $6?

Is $8 better than $7?

Is $9 better than $8?

Is $10 better than $9?

Is $11 better than $10?

Is $12 better than $11?

Is $13 better than $12?

Is $14 better than $13?

Is $15 better than $14?

Is $16 better than $15?


I've got some more questions after you answer these.

Do you have a formula for the opimal (sic) price of a six pack of GOOD beer?

Hay


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

Hay, I missed you.
Glad you're back. ;)


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

Facto, you seem to have disappeared.

Are you in favor of a minimum wage? I'd be very curious to know how you would arrive at the opimal (sic) minimum wage.

I think I've asked you some very simple yes-or-no questions. I know you like simple yes-or-no questions.

Anyone? How do you come up with the optimal minimum wage?

Hay


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

Another thread killed by a disingenuous poster. Oh, well.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

You could just say that you have no idea what the opimal (sic) minimum wage should be. You'd fit right in with the rest of the politicians on this.

Thank goodness that, for the most part, we, as a society, actually live according to free market principles. I'd hate to imagine a world where the politicians are expected to dictate prices.

Historically, it's been a miserable failure when that happens.

Hay


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

Dead thread. The killer -- a disingenuous poster. Sad.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

Can you imagine trying to figure out the right price for a six pack of GOOD Beer.

Let's see. We need to figure out how much it costs to gather up enough sand to make a bottle. Make a bottle? How much does it cost to build a factory to make a bottle? First we'll need some concrete. How much does it cost to get some concrete? We'll need some source of heat to melt all that sand. Where we going to get the heat? We'll have to figure out the best source of heat? That'll depend on the cost of the equipment we'll use for that heat source. We'll need some means of transporting all this to the factory. How are we going to figure out the cost of all that transporting? Does that include the cost of the tires?

Luckily, we don't have to go through all that nonsense. I just go down to the local liquor store and, almost like magic, there's a six pack of GOOD beer at a very reasonable price, actually sitting there on the shelf, waiting for me to pick it up.

Almost like magic. Thank goodness the politicians and Facto didn't get involved in the process.

(It's actually better, Facto, if I do all the talking.)

Hay


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Poor Dears.....

You think we have it bad here,

Imagine having to take a job that requires you to work past 9 PM

Even if you wanted to, Even if you got paid big bucks francs to do so.

France seems to be one of the current contenders for the most ridiculous Socialist country. They raise the tax so much that the rich flee the country and they have laws saying that you can't work.

Socialism at its best.

Hay


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

Never mind the facts or the actual numbers involved in what constitutes the percentage spent for public assistance... to those who actually need it, I mean, and not the giant amount urinated away in the form of subsidies to corporations, industries, and persons of means who don't actually require help... or the percentage therein of actual fraud perpetrated by those receiving assistance, not including those who perpetrate fraud in the millions as corporations, industries, or persons of means.

I just can't imagine living in a world where facts are so frightening...


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

Market forces have always set the minimum wage at ZERO - Unemployed.

The market dictates how much your education, knowledge, skills, experience and performance are worth and/or there's an over-supply of workers with their qualifications.

Many job seekers will never get a chance to succeed or fail as they can't pass the pre-qualification culling process.

The higher the wages, the tougher the pre-qualification screening and higher performance employers demand.

Many employers are much quicker to terminate low performers as well.

One of my tenant's daughters was fired from 2 jobs in 2 weeks due to performance issues. She came home from one job black and blue, in pain and exhausted, yet she still wasn't fast enough to keep up with the conveyor, packing and loading system at the business.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

"Your 2 cases of Aprihop by Dogfish have come in and are resting peacefully in the backroom. You can pick them up anytime."

I'm so glad that we haven't gotten to the point where, like the failed Ruskies, the government feels that we only need one brand of toothpaste.

That was one of the arguments I heard as a wee kid when it was still being debated: which is better, government control over economics or a free market where "too much" of our resources go to advertising, unneeded shelf space.....

Failed, thank goodness.

If I wanted, I could enjoy a different craft beer every day of my life for the rest of my life.

But not a while, I'm going to be drinking a lot of one beer.

Because of the wonders of competition with very little government control, I'd like to recommend that you enjoy just one of the wonderful benefits of free markets.

One of my all time favorite beers. So far. Still testing.

"Aprihops by Dogfish Head.

A seasonal beer, hitting the markets around April of each year. A little play on words: Apricots, April.

Cheers!!! God bless Freedom. Enjoy it while you still can.

Hay


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

I wonder too Rpr, does this thing include illegals? Because, as we've all been told, Americans won't work for these low wages. I think it's a good idea to raise wages. Then they can send more money back to Mexico. Yay!

•Posted by david52 z5CO (My Page) on
Sun, Mar 3, 13 at 14:06

". . maybe next step the hardware store for pitch forks."

Gee david, that sounds an awful lot like you are promoting a revolution or something. A violent one. (oh, but at least you aren't promoting the use of guns.) You are a violent person. (Sorry to other posters, but they all accused me of being a violent person when I suggested there would have to be a revolution to overthrow the politician/corporate run country. Seems it's quite alright if one of them says the same thing. Often it's better than alright. Sheesh what a bunch.)


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

Hard to believe that 40% of these wage earners are made up mostly of illegals when we know that most illegals are shiftless and are on the dole and not working.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

I could hire 3 underground economy workers as manual laborers for $16.50 per hour.

Not illegals either. Mostly unemployable types and people with other sources of financial support looking to make some extra cash.


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RE: 40% Of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage

I sure do miss WxDano and Facto.

RpR was good for a giggle - Rob, in the oil business?
Not so much.


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