Return to the Hot Topics Forum | Post a Follow-Up

 o
why no CPR?

Posted by youngquinn VIC Aust (My Page) on
Mon, Mar 4, 13 at 0:41

can anyone shed any light on this case where a nursing home worker in California rang an ambulance but refused to perform CPR on an elderly resident who had collapsed?

Here is a link that might be useful: why is CPR against policy?


Follow-Up Postings:

 o
RE: why no CPR?

Under their hiring page at brookdaleliving.com they have under Qualifications: Current CPR and First Aide certification a plus. Huh??? Why in the world would you want that since your not allowed to use it under THEIR regulations.

-Ron-


 o
RE: why no CPR?

Maybe she didn't want it, I wouldn't...


 o
RE: why no CPR?

Richard it did not mention a "do not resusitate" order in place , and if there was one , why call the ambulance in the first place?

Ron , yes that does not make sense , does it?


 o
RE: why no CPR?

They should tattoo it on their foreheads. I'm having mine done...


 o
RE: why no CPR?

I am sure you will look very fetching


 o
RE: why no CPR?

I plan to have it done on a background of roses...


 o
RE: why no CPR?

Well, that was extremely odd. Anyone can perform CPR, so for the nurse to say she isn't allowed to? I used to work as an EMT and unless there was an "Do Not Resusitate" Order in place - you do it. What kind of company would tell it's nurses that it isn't their place to do it? In a nursing home? And if that is the case, you get any able body around to do it. There isn't a nurse around that I know that is given this demand because that is their job when it calls - jump on that patient and keep them alive! Just listening to that nurse was very disturbing. That operator must have been fuming!


 o
RE: why no CPR?

I'm just reading another article on it and the person the nurse is talking to away from the phone is her boss. He's telling her that she is not allowed to do it.

When the dispatcher urged the nurse again to get CPR started, the nurse replied, "He's saying we don't so you can talk to my boss and I'm, I don't know what to say."

"They're refusing CPR, they're gonna let her die," the dispatcher said.

"When will the fire department be here? When will the ambulance be here?" the nurse asked.

"They're coming as quick, they've been on the way all this time but we can't wait, this lady's gonna die," the dispatcher said.

"Yeah," the nurse replied quietly.

The dispatcher said she understood if the nurse's boss wouldn't let her do CPR, but asked again if there were was anyone else willing to help.

I'm willing to bet the nurse wanted to do CPR, but her boss (probably business management background and not a medical background) is standing right there and won't allow her.

Here is a link that might be useful: CPR


 o
Because the women didn't want CPR

This is life, we get old and die.

The woman had a Do Not Resusitate order, and the staff knew it. Yes, it's awkward, since it happened in the dining room, but this is what the woman wanted, and this was respected. Would you be "outraged" if she'd died in her sleep and no one did CPR?

I've had to honor a DNR order many times, as a nurse. It's hard, but it has to be done. And I've done CPR on elderly people in retirement communities because they didn't have a DNR order. My parents both had DNR orders and we honored that, too.

jump on that patient and keep them alive! is completely inappropriate, and, ultimately, wrong. She didn't want to be "kept alive".

It's a legal issue, a DNR order is a legal document and can and will be upheld in court. This woman had such an order and her family knew it. The family says the staff did the right thing in not doing CPR.

If one of the dining room waitstaff had a cardiac arrest, the nurse would have performed CPR.

Here is a link that might be useful: Link


 o
RE: why no CPR?

Mom,

I read your link and I didn't see anywhere in it where it said that this woman had a DNR order. It did say something to the affect that the daughter was satisfied with the care her mother got at the facility, but where did you get the info that there was a DNR order on this woman?


 o
RE: why no CPR?

Wouldn't the caller have told 911 about the DNR order if there was one? If there was a DNR order, then this is just the press making drama.

No doubt all residents are presented with the DNR option upon arrival at that facility.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

Smart to have a DNR in place... so your wishes are observed in case of an emergency.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

And if they'd done CPR and she'd lived, you'd be screaming about all the unnecessary money being spent, hospitalization, ICU, rehab, etc, on end-of-life care. And that's the minimum, if she'd recovered without any deficits.

Many reports state she had a DNR order, but that would, ultimately, be confidential, as a part of her medical record. Her family is satisfied with her care.

If she had died in her apartment, quietly and alone, would you be so outraged?


 o
RE: why no CPR?

They are going to let her die sounds like she must have been breathing at the time. I wouldn't do CPR on a patient who is breathing. What's the point?


 o
RE: why no CPR?

My parents currently reside in a nursing home. They are (very) elderly and previously lived in Assisted Living. I could see the Assisted Living facility's patient notebooks in the nurse's room and most of them indicated a DNR code. My parents were a full code.

When we moved to the nursing home, the staff seemed quite interested in getting me to change them to a DNR code. I was reluctant but they indicated that resuscitating an elderly person whose heart has stopped is very harsh and often involves broken bones. My Mother has severe osteoporosis so eventually, they convinced me. The patient is often not the same after an episode like that and they are not in great condition to being with.

However, they assured me that the DNR was applicable when their heart stops. If they were to choke on a piece of meat in the dining room, they would most assuredly be given CPR.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

If you are facing this choice with elderly parents, give careful thought to what you are expecting and how you want your parents to live out their last years. At some point, you'll have to decide that "enough is enough", but it's not something that is easily done when mom or dad is already hospitalized and being treated. Doctors are loathe to give up and let someone die. You'll have a fight on your hands.

By the time a person reaches 85, they are considered "frail elderly"" whether they are frail or not frail. Any severe illness, a fall, a hospitalization, has a slow and difficult recovery, or no recovery at all, it can easily become the beginning of the end. A hospitalization can be traumatic enough for us "young" folks, it can kill an older person, and will if it's lengthy and invasive.

If your parent choked on a piece of meat they would mostly assuredly be given the Heimlich. They probably would not need CPR.

When I managed home health services in a large retirement community, the real tragedies were the residents who had no living wills or who were a "full code". Broken bones, internal organs damaged, brain damage from lack of oxygen. Our bodies are resilient, but much less so when we are in our 80's or 90's. Recovery was generally minimal, and they died, again, usually within a few weeks.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

Just heard the entire conversation and statement from the independent living facility management.

The facility has a policy of NOT providing CPR or any other medical care to their residents and that contacts residents sign indicate that.

Sounds like a liability thing...........

Very heard listening to the call. The 911 operator was almost begging the nurse to start CPR and not let the lady die.

Mrs, you don't wait until someone totally stops breathing before you administer CPR.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

"jump on that patient and keep them alive! is completely inappropriate, and, ultimately, wrong. She didn't want to be "kept alive". How is this wrong if there is no DNR order in place? My training was 1) my safety first 2) control all life threatening situations - this would be to be certain of clear airway so weather it is obstruction, assisted breathing or CPR unless there is a DNR (for CPR) in place. This is obviously a case of irresponsible journalism not stating the DNR order. Otherwise, this scenario doesn't make sense. Granted, I very much feel for the nurse if this may have been her first experience with a DNR order and to come to terms with it
I have performed CPR in the past and it is quite aggressive so I fully understand why someone who is in a frail state and elderly would put a DNR in place, I mean I would, given a certain time and conditions in my later years.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

This had nothing to do with a DNR order.......I just saw the statement from the facility...it is POLICY to not provide any level of medical care to residents.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

•If the person has normal breathing, coughing, or movement, do NOT begin chest compressions. Doing so may cause the heart to stop beating.

I have been certified and used CPR several times chase. But never on a breathing patient.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

The patient was NOT breathing normally. As a result of the information given to the 911 operator CPR was warranted.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

Mrskjun is right, CPR is not done on someone who is breathing. You can certainly feel for a pulse, and if there isn't one, than an AED is the appropriate response.

This woman may have had a stroke, CPR would be worthless even if she wasn't breathing.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

How old and in what sort of health was this woman, anyway??


 o
RE: why no CPR?

She was 87


 o
RE: why no CPR?

Thanks, Mom...

At 87, with a DNR in place, and depending on what exactly happened that caused the caller to dial 911 in the first place... do we know why?

I'm sure there's a reasonable explanation why such a place would not allow its employees to just begin CPR on any resident for any reason.. liability among those reasons...


 o
RE: why no CPR?

I read that there was no DNR in place.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

This was one of Obamacare's DEATH PANELS!!@!

we warned you.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

There was no DNR in place .......that is not the issue...not sure there even is an issue!!!!

The assisted living facility has a policy that states no medical care will be given to residents. Staff will call emergency services and stand by with the resident until they arrive but wil NOT provide medical assistance.

Residents sign this agreement as part of their residency contract.......now one could argue the morality of that but it appear to be contractually OK.

Not sure why this is getting such buzz.......


 o
RE: why no CPR?

One thing that you may not be aware of is that in the elderly, there may be a lot of damage to the rib cage is CPR is given. Broken ribs, punctured lungs, not easily corrected in the elderly.

I suspect that there have been some homes that have been sued for this damage. If it had been done to me, and I survived it, I think I would sue for everything they had.

Death at 87 would have been welcome compared to what could happen if life was prolonged.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

First-you only do CPR (Cardio pulmonary resusitation) when a person's heart has stopped-so you check for a pulse if you see someone is not breathing-if you have a pulse but scanty breathing or no breathing then you assist breathing with paced breaths. Since CPR is only hopeful at best, the benefits have been wildly overstated over the years, for heart failure(it is most useful in drowning cases)using it on an 87 year old would probably be pointless in any case.
When a person dies you have to start the process of official notification and calling 911 is generally the way you do that-unless a person is in the hospital or directly under a doctors care at the time you have to call and have some one make a declaration. It is a pity when the system doesnt work the way it is supposed to but treats each death as an emergency-sometimes simply to pad emergency call outs.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

This would not even be an issue if the 911 lady did not get so emotional on the phone. It makes for good TV news. If the family is not crying foul, why should anyone else?


 o
RE: why no CPR?

Sounds like the 911 dispatcher needs some more training.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

  • Posted by kwoods Cold z7 Long Is (My Page) on
    Mon, Mar 4, 13 at 15:16

About 20 or so years ago I was involved in an accident where a young lady, pedestrian, was struck and killed by a car. She was in very bad shape but a passing stranger, ex-marine, who had been out running performed CPR on her and kept her alive long enough to be medevaced to the hospital. I remember the police on scene telling the young man, blood on his hands and face, "you just keep running, you were never here and we don't want to know who you are".

They were concerned that he would be named in a lawsuit. I always thought that it was horrible and ironic that performing such a heroic and selfless act would be cause for concern. I think there are good samaritan laws in NY now that prevent that. I still wonder what ever happened to that guy, who he was, what and how his story, his life turned out.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

Amazing how we all know so much better that those in the thick of it.......


 o
RE: why no CPR?

Yes, it is chase, and yes, we do!!


 o
RE: why no CPR?

"Not sure why this is getting such buzz......."

I agree... if this is the home's policy, there's not much more we can say. We can either agree or disagree with such policies.

KWoods, I would say that karma happened, and that guy was or will be paid back in spades for the selfless act of trying to save another human being.

Compassion is so often missing in today's harried, impatient world where we're thought of as numbers or statistics or data by officials. We don't want to be sued, or we find some other excuse for turning our heads or walking on by when we see someone in need...


 o
RE: why no CPR?

If the lady had a DNR , of course that should have been respected....but what I dont understand is how can a nursing home hav ea blanketpolicy tha t no medical care will be given?
Surely the point of having frail elderly in a facility is that they will be looked after in cases of medical emergency?

My mother has been in this situation at exactly the same age. She was resusitated...and 2 years later she will celebrate her 89th birhtday in a few weeks.
(she had horrible bruising and was very very sore, but this did pass

She gets excellant care at her facility...and has IMPROVED in health since her arrival at the facility.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

It's not a nursing home, it's a retirement community, quite a different place entirely.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

kwoods there is now a good Samaritan law that would protect that young man from a lawsuit.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

The Good Samaritan laws are different in every state. So you might be protected against liability, or you might not.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

The assisted living facility has a policy that states no medical care will be given to residents.

As momj47 said, this was not a nursing home or an assisted living facility. It is a retirement home, more of a long term hotel than anything else. I heard the 911 call, and the woman who wouldn't give CPR was a nurse. She stated that she knew that the elderly woman needed CPR, but that she wasn't allowed to give it, per company policy employees didn't give any kind of medical care. I imagine that this elderly woman would have gotten more help if she had collapsed at the mall.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

This incident and posters responses is why I did not advise my Mom to sign a DNR. She was a strong woman. We seem to think that age should be the driving force of when a person should be saved. Just some of the comments here seem to focus on the age.........

-using it on an 87 year old would probably be pointless in any case.
-Death at 87 would have been welcome compared to what could happen if life was prolonged.
-By the time a person reaches 85, they are considered "frail elderly"" whether they are frail or not frail.
-This is life, we get old and die.

These attitudes are pretty much of how elderly are seen. You are old..... die, your are probably frail, saving you is probably pointless, death at 87 is welcome you are old you should be ready to die. What? They should just get in line for the firing squad with the other old 80 year olds.

My family has a history of living long healthy lives into their 90s and 100s. When they came into my mothers room they always said it was hard to remember she was in her 80s because she looked like she was in her 60s. When the pervasive attitude you are old in your 80s just let them die when there is a possibility of 20 more years it hastens death due to society perception of "you are old it is time for you to go anyway".

That is a decision I was not willing to leave in the hands of any caretaker that "You are old die". She was still driving herself to church and the grocery store, caring for herself in her home. But the medical professionals and our society think you are worthy of death due to a number is wrong.

I think this decision should be left with the family and they tell the medical people when they can not save your love ones lives. DNR's can be hasten to death documents because you have sinned and lived to longer and you are just taking up space.

Just my opinion.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

Yep, I agree with Marquest. Bad enough to be in the hospital in your late 80's. So many callous nurses/health "professionals" believe that you should automatically be a DNR at a certain age.

I have seen patients neglected due to age - especially and definitely if they are a DNR . If it's a busy day, they are ALWAYS the one whose care is put off and put off.

Nurses should NEVER be allowed on the committees to make any end-of-life decisions.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

I agree with Marquest and October.

Age alone should not be a determining factor.

My husband's family pretty much all make it to their mid or late nineties--on both sides. My father-in-law will be 93 first part of May and is still hauling water in drums up to the old farm place. A few years ago, when his brother was 91, he found out he had stomach cancer.

This was a big strapping man, 6'2" and still worked his own farm. The doctor told him he had never before suggested chemotherapy for a 92 year old patient, but he did, and he tolerated it fairly well. He did die a little less than two years later but it wasn't from the stomach cancer.

So, who are we to decide who gets treatment or not?

Oh wait....Obama's unelected "Independent Payment Advisory Board" that starts to work this year will have something to say about that.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

I think this decision should be left with the family and they tell the medical people when they can not save your love ones lives.

Yes, and then you get the people who just can't let go of grandma and insist that she be given extraordinary measures so she might be allowed to suffer a few more days. Or how about the Terri Schiavo case? How did the family making medical decisions work out for her?


 o
RE: why no CPR?

From my own point of view, I wouldn't want anyone giving me CPR at 87, but that's me. If I live to 87, it means I've spent a very long time suffering.

For others, this may differ greatly.

I asked about her age out of simple curiosity. She very well may have been very young and vital for an 87 year old woman... I couldn't say. I wasn't there. But for myself, living to or past 87 would be torture.

Jerzee makes an excellent point... I certainly don't want anyone but myself deciding my fate. That is purely my choice, and I want my wishes observed... no one else's. I don't want to suffer because some family member can't deal with death.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

I hope this woman was ready to go and died in peace as she might have wanted.

When my father was in his late seventies he had an operation for stomach cancer. The doctor told one sister he should go home and be let to pass because of his age. Another sister and I cornered the man in the corridor and started asking questions. It was soon apparent he just didn't want the bother. The two of us quickly changed his mind and attitude. We got another doctor who was in the field of geriatrics. Daddy survived the cancer and didn't even have chemo. He lived another twelve years at home to die of complications from diabetes. I think he was glad to be around those twelve years. He was alert and fully mentally competent to the end. His body just finally gave out and he gave in.

A number of DH's relatives have had to go into care or hospice facilities due to mental issues added to their failing health. It was tragic to see their decline. All of them had DNR orders. I didn't like it but they had witnessed their parents mental decline and wanted nothing to do with it so their wishes were respected when their bodies failed. That is hard.

So long as the decision is made when a person is in their sound mind I can't argue but it is hard when it is a loved one. It is tragic when it is a young person or a child.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

Yes, and then you get the people who just can't let go of grandma and insist that she be given extraordinary measures so she might be allowed to suffer a few more days. Or how about the Terri Schiavo case?

My mother had full faith that I would make the right decision. In the Terri S case if she had left instructions with her husband or her mother there would not have been a problem.

It does not have to be given to the hospital. It can be given to the family member and if needed presented if needed. The hospital does not make that decisions for my family member. If they have the document in hand I am giving them the power.

It was the first thing the hospital asked me when I admitted her to the hospital. "Did she have a DNR" I felt they were way to anxious for written reason to let her die premature. When the time came I knew what my mother wanted. She did not want to survive if she was not going to viable. When they asked her she said you ask my daughter what I want. I was her DNR not the hospital.

I was with her every day the last 2 years of her life. When she was in her house and when she was in the hospital. I know families have other obligations and cannot/will not go to that length. But I felt my mother was my obligation and I was not giving some unknown medical professional that looked at her as just another old lady that had lived long enough.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

In the Terri S case if she had left instructions with her husband or her mother there would not have been a problem.

She did have that conversation with her husband but unfortunately it was not in writing and so the family felt they could do what they wanted. .

When they asked her she said you ask my daughter what I want. I was her DNR not the hospital.

I hope never to put the burden of that decision on anyone.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

"Oh wait....Obama's unelected "Independent Payment Advisory Board" that starts to work this year will have something to say about that."

Copied your "Independent Payment Advisory Board" and put it in google plus "fact check" and the page was filled with these and more ad nauseum. They all say the same thing, that the hype from the right is false.

Scary Medicare Claims Fact Check.org

Romney says IPAB board can "tell people ultimately what treatments they're going to receive.” PolitiFact

Does the health care law include a Medicare rationing board?

Myth vs. Fact:
IPAB and Medicare 1 Myth -" IPAB will ration care and deny certain Medicare treatments
Fact -" IPAB is explicitly forbidden from rationing care pdf


 o
RE: why no CPR?

jerzeegirl I hope never to put the burden of that decision on anyone.

I don't argue that. It was the hardest thing I have done and probably will ever do in my life. But it was her wishes so when you know their wishes you honor it. So I do not feel it was a burden but my last honor to my Mom. It still hurts but it was going to hurt if they had made the decision or I made the decision out of love and honoring her wishes.

WOW have to stop I am starting to cry again. It was why I was avoiding this topic.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

I think the policy of the retirement home was odd. If this woman had collapsed at the mall, would not someone try to resuscitate her? Would they look at her and think...she's old, why bother? There is old and then there is old.

My mother mowed her yard at 90 and did daily walks of over a mile. I had to move her to an assisted living place near me because of declining mental faculties. One day she had an irregular heartbeat, and the home called an ambulance and they hauled her away without calling me who lived three miles away. Even took her to the wrong hospital without looking up her records to see which one I wanted. Immediately they catheterized her and long story short, that caused an infection. She was near 92 with an immune system not like a young person. She developed sepsis and died of that. I blamed the retirement home and the hospital for the unnecessary catherization.

Later a man who works at the home said they don't like people dying there so they always call an ambulance. WHAT??? This is a freaking retirement home with people aged 60-100!!!! Who do you think you are, GOD?


 o
RE: why no CPR?

Posted by don_socal socal (My Page) on
Tue, Mar 5, 13 at 14:01

"Oh wait....Obama's unelected "Independent Payment Advisory Board" that starts to work this year will have something to say about that."

Copied your "Independent Payment Advisory Board" and put it in google plus "fact check" and the page was filled with these and more ad nauseum. They all say the same thing, that the hype from the right is false.

Scary Medicare Claims Fact Check.org

Romney says IPAB board can "tell people ultimately what treatments they're going to receive.” PolitiFact

Does the health care law include a Medicare rationing board?

Myth vs. Fact:
IPAB and Medicare 1 Myth -" IPAB will ration care and deny certain Medicare treatments
Fact -" IPAB is explicitly forbidden from rationing care pdf

*

So what?

The fact that other people have problems with it has nothing to do with me.

The reference I made IS part and parcel of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, also known as "Obamacare."

It is comprised of fifteen appointed people who will decide what kind of care people get.

I don't understand why you posted links of what other people think about it--their opinions don't reflect on me.

I said what I said and I stand behind it.

The diversion of posting links of websites discussing this act in an effort to discredit me is pathetic, and quite obvious.

Get ready--it's coming.

Grandma won't have a chance--she's going to have to take a pill like Obama says.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

Rather than a choice by some clerk in a warren deep inside an insurance company's processing center

USA! USA! USA!

[how'd I do, David?]


 o
RE: why no CPR?

The diversion of posting links of websites discussing this act in an effort to discredit me is pathetic, and quite obvious.

How bad we were to forget that it's all about you.

Marquest:
I know how you feel because I had to make the same decision not quite two years ago. My mother was 84; had a stroke so she was unable to speak. I knew she didn't want to be resuscitated from conversations we had (ironically, about Terri Schiavo) but I still didn't feel confident making the call. That is the one good thing that came out of the Terri Schiavo debacle - for a while there everyone knew what everyone else felt regarding end of life decisions.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

If this happens to me at 87 and one of you are present, please hold your hand over my mouth and nose.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

demifloyd wrote,

The reference I made IS part and parcel of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, also known as "Obamacare."

It is comprised of fifteen appointed people who will decide what kind of care people get

All you have to do to support your claim is post the actual language of the bill that gives the board the power to make decisions over what care individuals can and cannot get. It's incredibly simple. Since you already read the bill, which is how you came to the conclusion you posted, it is a simple matter for you to go back to it and locate the pertinent section that states that the Board can make those decisions to deny treatments to people, and copy and paste those passages here.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

Facto:

I have a feeling you will see pigs flying before any response is forthcoming.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

I knew she didn't want to be resuscitated from conversations we had

Jerzee, we talked about it and it was done while she was well. Why I felt confident was because we talked long and thought hard and she signed the papers they just were not in the hands of the medical personnel. Until I said it was time.

She had a nurse come in to the home once a week that filled a medicine dispensing machine that I swear that woman wanted a DNR in her hands so bad. If I was late getting to the house she tried to get my Mom's signature on that paper. I finally told her if she ever did again I would have her license. She was suppose to be there at 11 she would show up at 10 and try to get the papers signed.

Demi, Really? Why do you continue to parrot those talking points?


 o
RE: why no CPR?

It may have to do with California licensing requirements. An independent living retirement community must be licensed as a health care provider if they offer health care services - such as CPR, on-site health clinic, home health nursing, ambulance/EMT services, etc. This community is not licensed to provide health care services. Which means all health care services must come from outside the community.

Glenwood Gardens "is an independent living facility, which by law is not licensed to provide medical care to any of its residents," The staff member was "serving in the capacity of a resident services director, not as a nurse,"

Other states have regulations that make it easier for an independent living community to provide some health services, which CPR is considered. Maybe this will spur California to reconsider their requirements and regulations.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

I think what I find curious, is that they pay to have nurses on staff, but do not provide medical assistance. What is the point?

If there were a DNR in place for this woman, I totally get that. But so far, it seems there was no DNR involved, it was simply company policy.

So if my grandmother is going into a retirement home, one of the selling points for me would be that they are staffed with trained nurses. YAY! I feel so much better. The reason Grandma would go to a home and not stay with me is because I am not a nurse, I don't know how to be a nurse, so to find out the home is staffed with nurses makes me feel much better.

But then the nurses are not allowed to use their skills. What? So what is the point? You could just staff it with minimum wage Home Care Workers if you're not allowed to actually medically help your residents.

And poor Colleen... to admit on the phone that she was a nurse, but have her hands tied while just watching this woman and not be allowed to do anything. I'm going to guess that this was actually very hard on this woman. Nurses are trined to help. It's not an easy thing for them to sit back and do nothing.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

It was an independent living facility. If she had been in the nursing part of the facility, they would have given her CPR. it doesn't really make much sense to me, but she did sign a form when she moved in agreeing to this rule.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

But when you're 87, do you comprehend what you're signing?


 o
RE: why no CPR?

The person was not working as a nurse. If CPR was done by a staff member it would have been health care.

Does anyone actually read any of the reports on this incidents or do you just jump to conclusions without any supporting information.

This resident would not have been allowed to sign anything unless she was competent. She would have been extensively screened to determine if she was capable of living independently and taking care of herself.

Facilities like this are very careful. They are not greedy or careless. Caring for our parents or for us when we are old is a tremendous responsibility and can carry great liability. A lot can go wrong so these communities work very hard to keep residents safe from all sorts of unfortunate events, but eventually they will all die. And their place will be taken by others, maybe you, maybe me.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

My great grandmother died at age 98 and knew exactly what she was doing up until two weeks before she died. She could have easily understood not only a paper stating a DNR wish, but with much more complicated financial issues. A great many people have minds in excellent shape at 87, especially if they exercise their brains with difficult problems or exercises.
My grandmother enjoyed working complicated math problems and top notch crossword puzzles, which she filled out using a pen only.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

But when you're 87, do you comprehend what you're signing?

I cannot speak for anyone other than my Mother and the answer is yes she could comprehend what she was signing. She could comprehend when they asked her if she had a DNR to tell them to ask my daughter. She even remembered when I arrived to tell me they were asking her for the DNR and tell me that I knew what to do when the time was right.

She would say....."Don't you hang on and make me suffer let me go" and I would promised I would let go.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

jerzeegirl wrote,

Facto:
I have a feeling you will see pigs flying before any response is forthcoming.

Perhaps, but I generally ask for support for claims even when the expectation that it will be forthcoming is low.

Failure to support claims, of course, is a tacit admission that they are false. And maintenance of a false claim by silence is a form of lying.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

"The diversion of posting links of websites discussing this act in an effort to discredit me is pathetic, and quite obvious."

Yes it is quite obvious that you did not even look at the links and it is pathetic that you believe what has been put out as opinions by others that have been debunked on the links that I posted. The last one is directly from the senate debunking Ryan and Bachmann who you apparently believe as you put forth the lies that they put out. They have been proved false and that is what it says in the links according to the senate. Sad.


 o
RE: why no CPR?


clip this post email this post what is this?
see most clipped and recent clippings

Posted by don_socal socal (My Page) on
Tue, Mar 5, 13 at 20:11

"The diversion of posting links of websites discussing this act in an effort to discredit me is pathetic, and quite obvious."

Yes it is quite obvious that you did not even look at the links and it is pathetic that you believe what has been put out as opinions by others that have been debunked on the links that I posted. The last one is directly from the senate debunking Ryan and Bachmann who you apparently believe as you put forth the lies that they put out. They have been proved false and that is what it says in the links according to the senate. Sad.

*

I certainly hate to disappoint you, but I not only did I not read your sites, I have not read anything about what Ryan or Bachman or any other conservative pundit said.

These are my own conclusions after reading parts of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

demifloyd wrote,

These are my own conclusions after reading parts of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.

Yet you are unable to post those parts that support your claim that the Independent Payment Advisory Board can deny treatment to individuals. Therefore, it follows that your claim is false, as is your claim to have read the Act. Those are inescapable conclusions from your failure to produce what would be readily-available evidence.

So you have posted two claims that are not just false, you know they are false.

Correction? Retraction?

What do other conservatives believe about the power of the IPAB to grant or deny treatments to individuals?


 o
RE: why no CPR?

Had the woman at the retirement community been my mother or grandmother, I'd be banging on a lawyer's door right now, filing a malpractice suit against that nurse.

"I was with her every day the last 2 years of her life. When she was in her house and when she was in the hospital. I know families have other obligations and cannot/will not go to that length. But I felt my mother was my obligation and I was not giving some unknown medical professional that looked at her as just another old lady that had lived long enough."

Bless you, marquest.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

What nurse would that be? The staff member was "serving in the capacity of a resident services director, not as a nurse," said Christopher Finn, a spokesman for Brookedale Senior Living, which owns Glenwood Gardens. The community does not employ nurses or offer nursing services.

I bet you would sue, there are people who will do anything for money, including walking on their mother's grave.

If I, as a nurse, got a job at McDonalds, I would be there as the fry cook or burger nuker, not a nurse. I would be required to work within the limits of my job description, which wouldn't be as a nurse. If, on the other hand, McDonalds hired me as a nurse to go around and tend to injured or ailing staff and patrons, then I could provide care, as a nurse.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

Hey, once that "DEATH PANELS!!@!@!" got out there, you can't very well expect people to acknowledge they got played like a cheap harmonica with chewing gum stuck in the C note.

"The family of an elderly woman whose death ignited a wave of anger after a nurse at her senior living community refused to give CPR released a statement Tuesday saying they have no plans to sue.

Lorraine Bayless' family said she "personally selected" Glenwood Gardens independent living facility in Bakersfield knowing there were not "trained medical staff" and that she wanted to "die naturally...without any kind of life-prolonging intervention." snip

So, her family is fine with it, getting on with their lives.

Here is a link that might be useful: link


 o
RE: why no CPR?

Nurses have obligations regardless of their employers' "policies" or wishes.

& I'm not sure, but it sounds like you've accused me of being a person who would do anything for money, "including walking on my mother's grave", neither of which is remotely accurate.

If that's the case, you're wrong, & you're inaccurate, & you're making offensive & insulting accusations.

It probably isn't a good idea to say such things about anyone, let alone someone you don't know.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

If the retirement community has a written policy of not giving medical care of any kind to residents, and the residents are fully informed of this and choose to live there regardless, there should be no reason to sue anyone.

The morality of the situation may be seen differently, but that's more of a personal opinion than a legal issue.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

sylviatexas, thank you. I was blessed and looking back I realized I just how blessed I had to be blessed to be physically, and financially able to not miss one day of eyes on and care for my Mom those last years.

You would not be suing because from the tone of your post you would not have placed your loved one in that type of facility. They have said her family is fine with the results and there were papers signed by the family that they understood there would be a DNR on site.

As I said throughout our society the elderly are not thought of as valuable only a drag on the economy and even in some families lives. Families do not want the bother of the inconvenience of any disruption to their lives and the gov does not want the drain on funds they can use for wars, tax breaks to business, oil companies, and foreign aid. Families do not want any disruption of their lives.

If you care about your Mother, Father you will assure they get the best care as they afforded you as a child. I was making arrangements for my Mom to come home with me before she died. My father died quickly they did not have to spend any of the money he contributed to the system they could darn well give my mother what he did not use.

I do not understand people that stick their parents in homes and maybe visit once a year for 5 minutes.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

This woman had a DNR and lived at a facility where she knew she'd get no resuscitation.

She chose to live there.

This is a good object lesson on how we conceptualize and deliver end-of-life issues.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

As I said throughout our society the elderly are not thought of as valuable only a drag on the economy and even in some families lives.

Why are you making such a blanket statement that is offensive to so many people?


 o
RE: why no CPR?

Thanks, marquest.

& now that I think about it, it might be more effective to file a complaint with the agency that licenses nurses.

but I'd certainly do something.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

Wx-you are so right-as a society we do not deal well with death. This woman died-how many times do we expect her to do this before we are satisfied that she can stay dead and we dont have to feel guilty about it because as far as I can see this seems to be all about us.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

I'd guess most people think 'Nursing Home' about all of these facilities. They probably assume that everyone handing out meds in a 'home' or a hospital is an RN, too. (Hah!) That's probably the basis for the public outrage. This was evidently more of a retirement hotel -- room and board.

I'll take this opportunity to remind people to remember the adage to 'follow the money' in choosing a 'home' where they 'buy in'. My late mother wanted to spare me her eventual care. She bought into a retirement 'village' -- a new, three-stage home from independent living with an apartment and meals to interim care to Skilled Nursing Care.

I soon discovered that the first stage was lovely -- and the only part of the place most buyers really looked at. The nursing care was a farce. The director wasn't even licensed; how could he be, *felon* that he was!. Pubic Health was so understaffed they couldn't/wouldn't monitor it. (I made a stink with the newspapers, and Mom was 'out of there' -- but the place is still going now, 30+ years later!)

Be very, very careful if you select a 'buy in' situtation. Remember that it is to the company's advantage to have rapid turnover. (They re-sell the deceased's apartment.) I would look first at old, well-established (and often religiously-affiliated) long-term care facilities. Find out who owns the outfit and who's running the whole thing. Find out what licenses are held and how often there are inspections -- scheduled or unscheduled inspections?


 o
RE: why no CPR?

Hmmmm:

Family of California woman who died after being denied CPR says she wanted no intervention

By Tracie Cone, The Associated Press

A woman who died after a nurse at her elder home refused to provide CPR had chosen to live in a facility without medical staff and wanted to pass away without life-prolonging intervention, her family said Tuesday.

Lorraine Bayless' family said in a statement to The Associated Press that it does not plan to sue the independent living facility where the 87-year-old woman died last week.

Follow @NBCNewsUS

A 911 tape recounts a dramatic conversation between a dispatcher and a nurse who refused to cooperate with pleas for someone to start CPR as firefighters sped to the scene. In the 7-minute, 16-second exchange, the dispatcher insisted the nurse perform CPR or find someone willing to do it.

The home's parent company said in a statement that the employee wrongly interpreted company policy when she declined to offer aide.

"This incident resulted from a complete misunderstanding of our practice with regards to emergency medical care for our residents. Glenwood Gardens is conducting a full internal investigation," Brookdale Senior Living said, adding that the employee was on voluntary leave during the process.

City fire officials say Bayless did not have a "do not resuscitate" order on file at the home. Her family said, however, "it was our beloved mother and grandmother's wish to die naturally and without any kind of life-prolonging intervention."

Glenwood Gardens is an independent living facility, and company officials say no medical staff is employed there. The woman who identified herself as a nurse to the dispatcher was employed at the facility as a resident services director, the company said.

Elder warehousing notwithstanding, the discussion of our end-of-life issues might get a kick-start. Like Sandy Hook.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

Elder warehousing? Hardly.

Marquest's devotion to her mom is the norm, not the exception.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

Neither of my parents saw a day in any type of home but their own... the one they bought and lived in together. Myself and my siblings took care of them in their final days, as they wanted... as we all wanted.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

Why are you making such a blanket statement that is offensive to so many people?

Jerzee I went through watching so many incidents caring for my mom and when I was involved with the Obama campaign it was my experience. If I offended anyone here I apologize. It was not my intention.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

"Marquest's devotion to her mom is the norm, not the exception"

I would take exception to this statement. A very close friend of mine had a mother in a nursing facility-while some her family visited her faithfully the same could not be said for most of the other people in what was an excellent care facility. We were there often and at varying times of the day for over 2 years and I can say that it was very rare to see other people visiting. But the value that family puts on its elderly relations doesn't inform my point of view.

My point is not that the elderly are without value but there is a time to let go and when an 87 year old person dies it seems to me the time has come-bring her back so that she can die again? Inspite of the positive outcomes of some here-I noticed no one told us about the relative who did not get brought back to 2 years of health and vitality(the norm) I would not, knowing what I know, want to take the chance. Doctors and nurses have to deal with the not so positive cases and I am sure that is what informs their opinions.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

My Mother is well over 85 and I have had her hospitalized twice since I moved her here 2 years ago. She had pneumonia and a UTI both times. Because she has dementia, hospitalization is certainly a last resort, it brings on extreme confusion and is like "starting over." Elderly people with dementia get very confused when moved.

I supposed she will reach a state of health upon which it will not be feasible to send her to a hospital because it will just be too hard on her. I guess I will know when that time comes.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

MOM forgive me for bring ing up somehting you said earlier nbut I have been away for a few days

"If she had died in her apartment, quietly and alone, would you be so outraged?"

the whole point , for me , was that she WASNT alone i her apartment, but from how she was treated she may as well have been.

where have we come to as a society when assisted living apartments or whatever can ask people to sign these documents AS A MATTER OF COURSE!?

I agree that a living will or a DNR , freely signed must be respected....but if that lady had been walking in a shopping centre I doubt that all the witnesses would have stood around and watched her die.

I a grateful to the medical personnel who saved my mothers life when they performed CPR on her....2 years later she is looking foward to attending my sons upcoming graduation as a doctor. (and he is looking foward to her being there.)

Our elderly are not disposable

as far as I am concerned this lady would have been just as well off in a hotel.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

as far as I am concerned this lady would have been just as well off in a hotel.

Perhaps. But that was not her choice.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

YQ, she wasn't in an assisted living facility, she was in a dining room in an INDEPENDENT LIVING COMMUNITY.

Get your facts straight before you criticize.

It would be no different than you having a heart attack in the McDonalds down the street - maybe, or maybe not, there would be someone who could figure out what had happened to you, but probably all you'd get was someone calling 000 or 112 and waiting with you until help arrives.

Here is a link that might be useful: Link


 o
RE: why no CPR?

  • Posted by kwoods Cold z7 Long Is (My Page) on
    Thu, Mar 7, 13 at 9:42

Peace Redsox, those are tough decisions.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

so mom its Ok to stand and watch her then, you didnt comment on the quote of yours did you.

so I will repost it.

"If she had died in her apartment, quietly and alone, would you be so outraged?"

the whole point , for me , was that she WASNT alone i her apartment, but from how she was treated she may as well have been.

I wonder what was the point of calling the ambulance, if the attending staff (yes I know not employed in a medical capacity) were not permitted to follow the instructions of the ambulance service.

so indfependant living communities can stand adn watch people who do not have a DNR in place die?

Wow. are you proud? as I said, she should have just moved into a hotel


 o
RE: why no CPR?

Yes, they can stand and watch people who do not have a DNR in place, it's unfortunate, but allowable.

Just like your neighbor standing and watching you if you collapse in your front yard. He'll probably call 000, but he may not want to, or be able to, do CPR, for any number of reasons. And you can't make him.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

"I supposed she will reach a state of health upon which it will not be feasible to send her to a hospital because it will just be too hard on her. I guess I will know when that time comes."

I'm so sorry.

I think you'll know, too;
I did when my dear friend Sally got to that point, & Sally knew it, too.

She had a "cardiac event" late one Saturday night when she was on home health care.

Her heart began to race, & she started yawning,& her bp went up.

You have to call the health care office, which calls the night duty nurse, who calls you back.

The night nurse told me to give her a nitro & monitor her heart rate & bp & call if it didn't stabilize.

Her pulse went to 165, & her bp was 203 over 102, & I could see her heart beating through her nightgown.

Thinking to save time I hit "re-dial" to get the nurse without going through the office, & the nurse, who had called me 15 minutes before, *did not pick up*.

so I called 911.

Then I called the office again & went through the spiel.

While the paramedics were monitoring her vital signs & preparing her for transport, the phone rang.

The nurse asked what was going on.

"Her heart rate is 165, bp 203 over 102."

"You need to hang up & call 911!"

uh.

hey're here.

The paramedics undoubtedly saved her life, but the hospital nearly killed her;
gave her anti-biotics without providing yogurt to keep her digestive tract in balance, then wouldn't give her anything for the horrible diarrhea that developed;
they put her in something like quarantine because of an obscure bacteria that had been found in a nursing home in *Waco*.

wouldn't even give her Pepto Bismol because they needed to be *sure* whether her problem was this bacteria...
so she kept having diarrhea & she got very dehydrated.

When I pinched her arm lightly, the skin stayed tented.

I said, "She's dehydrated. She needs fluids."

"Her doctor has said she can't have IV fluids because of her congestive heart failure."

"Well...can you call him?"

"uh. ok."

Doctor put her on IV fluids...

It was a nightmare, & Sally told me "no more hospitals".

At that point she signed up for in-home hospice & signed the DNR out-of-hospital order that hospice pushed under her nose;
they hung it on the wall behind her bed.

I decided not to argue about it;
if I'd thought Sally needed to go to the hospital, I'd have pulled it down & hidden it in a drawer.

As marquest says, sometimes someone has to make the decisions.

She stayed in her home without further crises, mainly, I think, because with hospice you get stronger medications for controlling the symptoms.

About 4 months later, she passed away in her own bed, in the home she'd lived in since 1957, with her beloved cats beside her.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

OK Mom you are saying it is legal. I am asking you if it is moral?

and as far as a neighbour refusing to give cpr etc , I know of no instance where fear of being puked on stopped a person from providing assistance.

"Just like your neighbor standing and watching you if you collapse in your front yard. He'll probably call 000, but he may not want to, or be able to, do CPR, for any number of reasons. And you can't make him"

why on earth would you assume that my neighbour would nt help? You have n way of knowing what would happen and so ' assuming ' has no relevance

if you feel that your neighbour would not help you all I can suggest is that you MOVE !!

I have current certifiction in CPR....and I would assist someone in that situation unless someone produced a DNR.

so once again , what do you feel about the morality of this action?


 o
RE: why no CPR?

Who, exactly, has a fear of being puked on? Where in the world did that thought come from.

You are wound up tight on this aren't you? Why?

Is it moral not to help? This is not a question of morality, so it's an irrelevant question.

Is it moral not to want to help?

Should someone help - not necessarily.

There are so many variables, so many unanswered questions about this situation and others like it, no one is going to be satisfied, no answer is the right answer.

If this had been a 5 year old who choked on a hot dog, the response seems obvious, but it's not. I might know how to do the Heimlich, but you may not, or the only person around may be 4 years old - are you going to hold the four year old responsible for the death of the five year old? You can be sure that four year old really wanted to do something, but couldn't.

It looks like this facility had a poor policy for providing "medical care" to residents in independent living, I'm sure they'll be revisiting that policy. If this woman, as is reported, was still breathing, then CPR should not be done, if she had a pulse, again, CPR would not need to be done.

These days, you don't just "jump up and do CPR." This facility, like most places, probably has AED's all over the place. Attaching the leads would have indicated what, if anything needed to be done, so I'm a little puzzled that it wasn't noted if one was used.

But it's over. The family would probably like to be left in peace, now. I can't even begin to imagine their pain, and wonder who leaked this to the public. This is a gross violation of HIPPA. Would you like your death splashed all over the tabloids?


 o
RE: why no CPR?

"I'm sure they'll be revisiting that policy."

betcha they will.

"The family would probably like to be left in peace, now."

so if a drunk uncle runs over his nephew, & the family says they just want peace, the "incident" should be written off?

"The family" isn't the one who was allowed to die.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

No, and you know that's not what I meant, or said. Nice try, though.

It has not been determined if a "crime" has been committed, so there should not be any information available to the public.

This has been a terrible breach of privacy for this woman and her family, someone sent this information, including the woman's name, to the press, and now it's all over the world. Is this how you, sylviatexas, want your death to be celebrated?


 o
RE: why no CPR?

I will start this statement with an apology since I was called out as hurting people's feelings. It is not my intention but........

I get the feeling that the majority (not all) seem to think that it is acceptable because of age. I get that impression from the examples I included in one of my post. There were hints that 87 it is time to die. My impression of a 87 maybe tainted because of my family history and observation. Maybe others see 87 as not viable human beings. Any effort to keep them alive is wasted as stated here "to bring them back only to die again."


 o
RE: why no CPR?

"nice try"?

sorry if my statements and/or position have been so poorly expressed as to lead to misunderstanding, but my posts aren't about you or any other poster,& they cerainly aren't about "trying" to attack anyone.

They're about a human being who is dead now, who might have been alive had someone given her CPR.

As far as I can tell, the conversation is about a death not a "celebration" of death.

& in the spirit of an old saying to the effect that you can judge your character or your success or your something by the enemies you make, I'd hope that my death would be celebrated by enemies I've been proud to make.

Marquest, I think you're absolutely right;
somehow, we/they/people seem to feel entitled to judge another person's quality of life, another person's value, if that other person is old.

At 86, my friend Sally was active, happy, & independent, & she relished & savored every moment.

She lived several more months after her cardiac emergency, & she had time to enjoy her friends, to read more books, to cook Christmas dinner.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

Here is a thread on a Retirement Living forum that deals with employees, ex-employees, and children of elderly residents. They express their views in various ways of the company, Brookdale Senior Living (the owners of Glenwood Gardens).

Most of these people who seem to have an insider view come across as highly critical of the company. Also, please note the original post was started 61 months ago.

-Ron-

Here is a link that might be useful: Not Good


 o
RE: why no CPR?

Marquest, I think you're absolutely right;
somehow, we/they/people seem to feel entitled to judge another person's quality of life, another person's value, if that other person is old.

No some of the post I do not think they are judging others. They are saying even for themselves that they would chose death as an elder. I do not know if it is because of experience of family or perception of a typical healthy 87 year old person.

What is the perception that once you are 87 that you should die I can only guess. Sure my Mom was not running marathons but she could shop, take herself to church that was 1/2 hour away in her car walked without medical equipment for assistance.

The government is well aware we are living longer and want to set the retirement age at 75. The 80s are the new 60s these days if you have cared for your body and you are lucky to have good genes to carry you through 87 is 67.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

I have a feeling this is going to go on interminably. We all have different views but I heard last night on the car radio that Glenwood gardens has been feeling the heat of the incident. The nurse has been placed on leave. They said she was not supposed to make those decisions. I think the nurse is probably history. I wonder if she was a new hire?

It may be interesting but probably will be unproductive if the facility has the right legal forms filled out. The laws seem to be drastically different in different states.

Maybe having a tattoo of your wishes on your chest, properly dated and notarized is not such a bad idea. Properly updated of course.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

Marquest-I am not saying that just because a person is 87 they should die but how and when do you accept death? It certainly seems to be part of our culture that we view death as a failure but we are all doomed to failure. People who deal with elder care have a different view because they get to see and deal with the downside of when it doesn't work out so well. You can go to a nusing home like the one my friend's mother was in and peek in the darkened rooms to see person after person whose outcome is not so good. If a person who has died once already is brought back to some semblance of life when they are 87 chances are they will end up in the darkened room instead of sitting up visiting with friends and relations. This woman died because something was seriously wrong. We dont even know if she could be brought back. I have to admit that my own opinion about life colors my view. If I live to be 87-and I am on borrowed time here-I would prefer that quick death for myself.

When you say 87 is the old 67 you are not dealing with the fact that people used to die at 67.

That people are living longer is undeniable but whether or not they would be able to continue to work productively is another matter. I would suspect that one of the reason we live longer is that we get to retire.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

"Is it moral not to help? This is not a question of morality, so it's an irrelevant question.

Is it moral not to want to help? " from Mom

why is this not a question of morality?
You have told us it is legal for the company to do what it did , and now I am asking if it is moral.
why did you dismiss this question as irrelevant?

talking about irrelelvant....I consider your example of the 4 year old not helping the child with the hot dog issue as just simply ridiculous


 o
RE: why no CPR?

While we all cogitate, Brookdale is making about seven million dollars a year housing Seniors in various types of homes all over the country -- got to be a growth industry.

Check into the laws concerning 'homes' in your town -- and application of the laws. Now would be good, before you or your family has to make a fast decision about 'care'.


 o
RE: why no CPR?

Sorry -- that's Billion, not million.


 o Post a Follow-Up

Please Note: Only registered members are able to post messages to this forum.

    If you are a member, please log in.

    If you aren't yet a member, join now!


Return to the Hot Topics Forum

Information about Posting

  • You must be logged in to post a message. Once you are logged in, a posting window will appear at the bottom of the messages. If you are not a member, please register for an account.
  • Posting is a two-step process. Once you have composed your message, you will be taken to the preview page. You will then have a chance to review your post, make changes and upload photos.
  • After posting your message, you may need to refresh the forum page in order to see it.
  • Before posting copyrighted material, please read about Copyright and Fair Use.
  • We have a strict no-advertising policy!
  • If you would like to practice posting or uploading photos, please visit our Test forum.
  • If you need assistance, please Contact Us and we will be happy to help.


Learn more about in-text links on this page here