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Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

Posted by haydayhayday none (My Page) on
Fri, Mar 29, 13 at 14:09

The other thread was trashed by Heri and Pidge.

I'll try again.

We think we're so smart and clever.

Smart is as smart does.

"Who is smarter: a person or an ape? Well, it depends on the task. Consider Ayumu, a young male chimpanzee at Kyoto University who, in a 2007 study, put human memory to shame. Trained on a touch screen, Ayumu could recall a random series of nine numbers, from 1 to 9, and tap them in the right order, even though the numbers had been displayed for just a fraction of a second and then replaced with white squares.

I tried the task myself and could not keep track of more than five numbers..."

And you can't balance your checkbook?

Homing Pigeons can find their way home just by navigating the sounds of the earth and you can't read a roadmap?

Dung Beetles can use the Milky Way to roll those dung balls in a straight line, but you trip every time you get up at night to use the bathroom?

Hay


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

I don't think monkeys are smarter than me, they just take a different approach to problem solving.

I like the article. It' about time people stopped taking an anthropocentric, myoptic view of everything else. Our cats had a huge vocabulary, so I've had first hand experience with the intelligence of fellow creatures.

It's good to see the "tree of life" with humans at the top challenged to. Norman Pace developed a different mapping of life that is pretty interesting. Humans are but a branch connected to the whole.

This is what it looks like:

This is what it means:

Summary: The intent of this article is to provide a critical assessment of our current understanding of life's phylogenetic diversity. Phylogenetic comparison of gene sequences is a natural way to identify microorganisms and can also be used to infer the course of evolution. Three decades of molecular phylogenetic studies with various molecular markers have provided the outlines of a universal tree of life (ToL), the three-domain pattern of archaea, bacteria, and eucarya. The sequence-based perspective on microbial identification additionally opened the way to the identification of environmental microbes without the requirement for culture, particularly through analysis of rRNA gene sequences. Environmental rRNA sequences, which now far outnumber those from cultivars, expand our knowledge of the extent of microbial diversity and contribute increasingly heavily to the emerging ToL. Although the three-domain structure of the ToL is established, the deep phylogenetic structure of each of the domains remains murky and sometimes controversial. Obstacles to accurate inference of deep phylogenetic relationships are both systematic, in molecular phylogenetic calculations, and practical, due to a paucity of sequence representation for many groups of organisms.

Here is a link that might be useful: mapping the tree of life


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

My DH came into the living room the other night and said "There is a cat at the front door." Our Ginger Kitty got up and walked two rooms and a hallway to the door to see the other cat. They sat and talked for 10 minutes. Then Ginger went to the bag of dry cat food in the kitchen and meowed until DH got some out. She then led him back to the door. The other cat sat in the driveway until the door closed and then came back and ate while Ginger watched through the sidelight. Funny.


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In high school I think it was stated where they could train rats to run a maze faster than humans. Getting back to the savant idiots and their feats...I do think I'm smarter and cleverer than a young, adult, male chimpanzee 99+% of the time.

-Ron-


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Talk about animal visitors, my daughter in grade school and junior high made friends with just about every dog she ran into--and they would be such good friends that the dogs would travel several blocks to come over and visit her. I'd walk by the front door and see a dog out there sitting and waiting. He/she would give a wag of a tail but not move--just sit there waiting. The first couple times--knowing how crazy my daughter was about dogs--I called her from her room and asked what I should do with the dog just sitting there and waiting. She would glance the door and exclaim, "Oh, it's Joe"--and the minutes the dog heard her voice, he would start jumping up and down in excitement. She'd go out and talk and play with the dog and then walk them home.

That happened so many times that I just got used to calling out "Joe's here for a visit" when I would see the dog at the door--and she'd come out and play with Joe.

Joe was the main visitor, but there were several others that periodically came for a visit also.

I had never heard of dogs dropping by for a visit before. But those dogs never had more than a tail wag or two for me--they obviously weren't visiting me.

Kate


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

Just for fun. This dumb chimp did it with 9 digits.

We'll start you out with just 5.

Warning, try not to blink when they flash the numbers. Otherwise you might miss them.

Hay


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Adding insult to injury.

How'd you do?

Another thing.....

Your competition, the Chimp, is only five years old.

Five years old and doesn't even speak the language of the testers.

Hay


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

I live in an area where hummingbirds are common in the summer.

I used to hang a couple of feeders off of post by a rear window, but stopped doing so a couple of years ago. I still get ruby throated humming birds that migrate up from Mexico, or Rufus that fly up the CA coast, cross the Sierras, and fly down the Western Slope of the Rockies, and both will spend half their day hovering around that post, now w/o any feeders.

How big are their brains, that they can remember, two years later, that there used to be feeders at that exact spot?


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

You might find this of interest, david.

Here is a link that might be useful: Hummingbird's memory


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Very cool, duluth - puts Hay's chimps to shame. :-)


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Duluth, most interesting article on hummer memory. Most are very territorial as well. At the farm we have a couple of year-round resident Annas, one staking out the flowering shrubs around the entrance to enclosed farm yard. That one will land on a twig less than arm length from where I might be sitting and chitter away at me. Cute little male. He probably remembers me as the fellow who filled bottle feeders before the area filled with Salvias and other nectar-rich shrubs.


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Duluth, thank from me as well for the article. When I see the hummingbirds there's usually a pattern as they dart from one nectar source to the next without checking out what else there is growing. Sometimes it takes awhile before a newly-planted source is recognized.

Most are very territorial as well.

Extremely.

Being near sighted, I can't tell if it's the same rufous that chases interlopers both in the rear and front of the house.



No feeders here, just nectar-rich plants to attract the aggressive critters. No fond memories of me feeding them and the ingrates don't realize that the live nectar sources are there because of me. One likes to buzz me when I'm out watering in summer.

When I lived in a house in the chaparral, the hummers would use the spray from my hose for a shower. Not so with the privileged hummers in Venice as there are abundant 'water features' in the neighborhood for their use. I miss seeing them so close by.


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My son has a friend who is doing research on hummingbirds - their flowers have bacteria, both good and bad (from a hummingbird POV) and is studying how they react and selectively feed.

Last call at the "52Bellyup Bar and Grill" .....


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Though not a birder - in the studied sense - I do get Ruby Throats. They arrive just before the Lilium Tigrinum begin to bloom, returning time and time again to prod the unopened buds.

I watch them from my perch close by and I've seen them probe the spots on the opened lilies, too - wondering if they're confused by the spots or it's a honing in on the lily throat technique.


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Hummers here also, though not in large numbers.

Hay, that's an interesting test. I got one right in each of two rounds. Very poor in comparison to the chimp.

Two things: it might be that there are significant visual perception differences between chimps and humans, especially in the peripheral. I think even more what is going on (funny you would mention language) is that knowing the sequence of the symbols is a very large liability. I would be willing to bet the chimp does not know the sequence. Our minds waste precious time looking for 1, then 2, then 3, etc instead of simply noting the relative positions.

If the test used meaningless symbols I would bet human scores would go way up.


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

The chimp beat me. I got only 2 right on the 3rd try.

We used to have a cardinal at our old place that would sit in the tree in the back yard chirping until I brought food out for him. Then he would sit a foot or so away while I was putting the seed out. One of my neighbors even noticed that the cardinal had me trained, and asked about it. One year a squirrel got into their nest built in a small Norway spruce in the next door neighbors back yard, and knocked the babies out of the nest. DH retrieved the babies and put them back in the nest while the father cardinal "supervised" the operation. When the babies fledged, he brought them over, and they hung out by the back door until they were a little older. Sweet.


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I had a similar experience with a family of mockingbirds and another of Scrub Jays, the pairs of which set up nesting sites in the same general area of the gate to the farm yard. The mockingbirds laid claim to the Pineapple guava and its sweet flower petals. While the adults looked on the two fledged youngsters could roam the guava learning to pick its own food interspersed with the parents shoving food down beaks. While the parents were off foraging, the neighboring jay came after the young mockingbirds, knocking one young to the ground and causing the other young to fall into a tangle of branches. The parents returned with great ruckus. I came out of the yard and rescued the fallen youngster and to retrieve the entangled one. The parents became my friends at that point and the youngsters always came to visit until they all took off for the season. The Jays were punished by me removing their nesting site this winter. They have returned but are not nesting in the same area. The mockingbirds (parents?) are back and visiting with me as I go about my chores.


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

  • Posted by kwoods Cold z7 Long Is (My Page) on
    Sat, Mar 30, 13 at 19:15

Well, it's been quite a day. It seems that German authorities have seized Justin Beiber's monkey.

Not a fan but nobody wants Germans seizing their monkey.


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

"but nobody wants Germans seizing their monkey."

Probably for most that would depend on the German.


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

Justin gave away his pet hamster, named PAC, and the hamster died less than 3 months later. And now, the monkey?

"TMZ broke the story ... Bieber unloaded the pet on an unsuspecting teenage girl in Atlanta last December ... cage and everything ... following his Jingle Ball concert. He told her, "That's all you ... you gotta take care of PAC."

Here is a link that might be useful: shocking video at the link


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Not being particularly domesticated, most monkeys make poor pets, in my opinion, and belong in the wild... in their natural habitat. Stories abound of various primates attacking or harming their human handlers.


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

I don't know why I even bother hanging out with you lowlifes.

I mean, what are you good at?

You can trust me on this:

This creature has it on just about every single one of you in this regard.

Hay


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

That is reassuring...Hay-ster has found an appropriate zoo denizen with which to hang about for increased edification.


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

"increased edification."

Yes, that, too.

They're pretty pleasant, sweet, kind creatures, too.

Increased edification, pleasant, sweet, kind creatures.
Not so with some humans. What's not to like?

(Have you seen the Nosey thread?)

Hay


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

Unfortunately, yes, I saw that thread when it began and have not returned to see what kind of BS to account for so many posts.

All the chimps I have known, 5 so far, have been a lot less "pleasant, sweet, kind creatures."

The worst was owned by my landlord in VT when I was newly married. The chimp lived in the basement in a cage and raged all day. During the winter the owner moved the cage across the street to his kitchen. Every winter his family moved out. The Chimp would throw feces at anyone passing the kitchen door and loved to throw the stuff at and on the cast iron Kerosine stove. The chimp and his owner were both insane but that being rural VT, they were both eccentric. The chimp could dance, though. Not sure about the owner.


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

"The chimp lived in the basement in a cage and raged all day."

Duh. Don't know about the chimp, but the owner sure sounds like a piece of work. I'd be ragin' too. :(

I suppose back in the day there was no one you could call. Ah, well.

Hay, I saw the sea lion on TV earlier today. Sweet!


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

"All the chimps I have known, 5 so far, have been a lot less "pleasant, sweet, kind creatures."

Chimps don't usually lock up humans in cages and put them in a cellar.

They also don't use humans to test their beauty products. Just to be sure they're safe.

"The Chimp would throw feces at anyone passing ..."

Maybe it'd be better for you not to go back to the Nosey thread.

Hay


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

I don't have hummingbirds, but I have a catbird couple who come to my yard every May 1st. My friend up the street has a couple who return to her yard too. How do we know? She keeps raisins on the porch in a bowl and they first thing they do is go get some. My couple whistle for me like I whistle for the dog. Every time I see a catbird in the yard, I do the dog whistle and they return the sound. I don't know where they migrate to but I'm guessing the Carolinas.

I also hand raised a baby squirrel years ago and he lives with all the other ones who frequent my feeders. I can't recognize him because he looks like the rest, but he'll come very close to me.

Both my dogs are quite smart. If one is bugging me inside way at the end of the house I'll tell him to take the ball in to daddy and off he trots, finds the ball, and drops it at his feet. My other dog will memorize a walking route after one time. If we go back months later , he knows where to turn at corners.


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

Just a small note, but intelligence isn't measured by how well you can memorize something.

Intelligence is measured by your ability to solve problems, the ability to think of solutions regardless of "learning" or "memorization".

However, chimps are a fair hand at solving problems, innovating solutions when faced with obstacles. No doubt better than some humans I know.


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

The chimp is 5. That part speaks to me. My memory was infallible when I was younger. Right up until about 40.

I do think animals are intelligent and have similar emotions. Communicating those things to we who do not communicate in the same way, may not come across, but it's there. Superior? They're not superior. Overall. Individual cases probably, but overall, no.


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

It's an interesting test that measures instant perception, not cognition.


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I would like to see the chimps face when he is doing the random number test, to see if he blinks. I found that when the white squares flash on the black background, I blink involuntarily, decreasing the amount of time I have to memorize the sequence, because my eyes are closed.


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

"Intelligence is measured by your ability to solve problems.."

Can you roll a dung ball in a perfectly straight line using only the Milky Way to guide you?

"It's an interesting test that measures instant perception, not cognition.

It'd be interesting, if we could, to find out how Monkeys would define "intelligence".

Should "we", the tester of who's better, define just what the criteria of being the "smartest" should be. Sounds a little like stacking the deck to me.

If I drop you off 300 miles away from your home, can you make it back home with nothing more the sound of the earth to guide you?

You can't even do it with a map.

Hay


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

But Hay, why doesn't the ability to make a lasting structure to cover themselves from weather and predatory fears enter the logic? I'm sure there are any many examples of things mankind has done that animals cannot. But surely, we agree that protection is something about which they are are highly concerned. Basic need even.


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

We humans have a genius of social organization where the collective is more savvy and creative than any one individual. We learn as a species; gifted individual die off while their contributions are preserved by the collective.


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

  • Posted by vgkg 7-Va Tidewater (My Page) on
    Wed, Apr 3, 13 at 10:33

If 100 dogs, 100 cats, or 100 monkeys were dropped off 300 miles from home how many of them do you think would make it back? We hear much ado about the miracle dog or cat that finds his way home but not so much about the other 99. Never have heard about a monkey getting back home but maybe he was too smart to go back.

My though returns to possibility that lower animals with smaller brains have evolved more specific survival skills that helped them stay alive. Man has evolved more complex array of survival skills where he can think of many solutions to a problem. With so many choices at hand man can get a bit confused at times and make the wrong choice. So a monkey might burn himself on a hot stove just once, but a man gets burned more than once as we as often more distracted by other thoughts.


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Hey, isn't that an Aesops's fable moral? "Better one good way than a thousand on which you cannot reckon". Something like that.


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

"If I drop you off 300 miles away from your home, can you make it back home"

No time limit? Of course I could, assuming I could walk. If I didn't have money I'd have to beg for food, and if you dropped me in northern ME miles from no place or person then I'd have to get thrifty. If it were mid-winter there is a very good chance I would die. So would a chimp.

Hay, you're getting pretty random these days.


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

  • Posted by kwoods Cold z7 Long Is (My Page) on
    Wed, Apr 3, 13 at 13:03

"Can you roll a dung ball in a perfectly straight line using only the Milky Way to guide you?"

.... is this supposed to be an example of a useful skill? Or, just something to do on a Saturday night?


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

"Can you roll a dung ball in a perfectly straight line using only the Milky Way to guide you?"

.... is this supposed to be an example of a useful skill?

I hope it's a useful skill otherwise I've wasted a lot of time practicing rolling dung.


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

My short term memory is hell, so most chimps will beat me hands down

My dogs can tell the day of the week, and I wonder how. Every day I go to the gym in the same type of clothes and Nikes. They are asked to go in their crates. Sometimes more than once. Saturday night I have the same clothes and shoes on and when I tell them, they are already in there buried in their blankets. I'm still going to the gym but I change clothes there so that's not the reason. I do errands, eat out ,and more importantly go to Target and buy them chewy bones every Sat. night. When we get home , it's a home greeting the likes of people being away for years get. They race out to go potty and back to perform and get their bones. Since I leave them every day at the same time in the same type of clothes, how do they know it's Sat. night? Einstein dogs?


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Pavlov dogs! They just call it "dog bone" night, not Saturday. Not really. I just coldn't resist.

:)


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."No time limit? Of course I could, assuming I could walk. If I didn't have money I'd have to beg for food, and if you dropped me in northern ME miles from no place or person then I'd have to get thrifty. If it were mid-winter there is a very good chance I would die. So would a chimp.

We're talking about homing pigeons, here. (See the OP if you need a review). Just to keep things fair and even, you can't beg or bring along a credit card. Or ask for directions. You're on your own. Most intelligence tests restrict the time, so we'll have to say something like, oh, three days.......On your mark, get set...

".... is this supposed to be an example of a useful skill?"

If you're a dung beetle, absolutely yes. If you don't get that dung quickly and get out of there, you're " ---- out of luck", as they say. If you're planning to compete, I'll have to go check the rules, but I think the dung ball has to be as big as you.

You people need a break

Me, I'm going to be needing a wee bit more practice time. You want to meet me somewhere on a Saturday night, Nancy?

Hay


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

I guess I am finding it interesting that most people here (not just Hay) are equating intelligence with the ability to memorize or repeat... not as the ability to use logic, innovate, and solve problems.

That might explain the school trend of "teaching to the test" rather than teaching students to think.

Our society is beginning to think the ability to regurgitate data means they are intelligent... not whether they use data to find solutions to problems.


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"I guess I am finding it interesting that most people here (not just Hay) are equating intelligence with the ability to memorize or repeat... not as the ability to use logic, innovate, and solve problems."

Getting that dung ball home in the middle of the night is the problem. Can you solve it?

Getting home after being dropped off 300 miles away in the middle of nowhere is the problem. Can you solve it?

Hay


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

I assert that bacteria are the most intelligent beings, they having successfully colonized and reproduced in such extreme environments as deep rock layers, the bottom of the deepest oceanic abysses, and the highest mountains and have been doing so for more than a half billion years on this planet. Let me see you do it. Hay, of course, has already done that, he being out model here. The rest of us are just fumbling around for a few million years.


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LOVE that marshall!


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

Getting that dung ball home in the middle of the night is the problem. Can you solve it?

Getting home after being dropped off 300 miles away in the middle of nowhere is the problem. Can you solve it?

Hay

Well yes. Humans can solve problems like this by taking the info that they have around them and devising a solution. That is intelligence.

Other animals can use instinct or sonar or specialized appendages or whatever else they use... but it's not the same as using intelligence to problem solve. The human brain is capable of devising solutions and innovating on a level that no other animal can. It's not the same as "aping" (sorry for the pun) actions or images that you've already seen.

Birds use a natural homing instinct to fly home from 300 miles. Humans possess very little of that instinct, so instead we use our intelligence to build GPS devices.


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  • Posted by kwoods Cold z7 Long Is (My Page) on
    Thu, Apr 4, 13 at 15:45

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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

Rob:

"But Hay, why doesn't the ability to make a lasting structure to cover themselves from weather and predatory fears enter the logic? I'm sure there are any many examples of things mankind has done that animals cannot. But surely, we agree that protection is something about which they are are highly concerned. Basic need even."

Bears dig a hole in the ground and seem to have a pretty good means of getting a nice long comfortable sleep. Hornets build hives with nothing more than spit and sawdust. It lasts a lifetime. The smartest creature around here isn't me who works like crazy to save the money to buy a house and pay the taxes, but the raccoon who lives under there that eats the leftovers in the compost pile.

HG:

"That might explain the school trend of "teaching to the test" rather than teaching students to think."

I've had some experience trying to teach people to "think". It's near impossible. They're good with "give me the formula". Not what YOU are calling intelligence. Not much there beyond " the ability to memorize or repeat".

HG:

"Well yes. Humans can solve problems like this by taking the info that they have around them and devising a solution. That is intelligence.

Other animals can use instinct or sonar or specialized appendages or whatever else they use... but it's not the same as using intelligence to problem solve. The human brain is capable of devising solutions and innovating on a level that no other animal can. It's not the same as "aping" (sorry for the pun) actions or images that you've already seen.

Birds use a natural homing instinct to fly home from 300 miles. Humans possess very little of that instinct, so instead we use our intelligence to build GPS devices."

OK, Just to make things more fair, take your brain, put it into a homing pigeon's body, complete with little teeny tiny feet and a beak for doing most of your work. No schooling of course. You're going to build a GPS device to get you home after I drop you off in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean?

After you make it back, we'll do the dung beetle experiment.

Marshall:

"We humans have a genius of social organization where the collective is more savvy and creative than any one individual. We learn as a species; gifted individual die off while their contributions are preserved by the collective."

Ants, bees, herds....

Yeah, we're genius at it alright. You ever heard of a group called Congress?

You people keep changing the rules around here. Rules designed to make you the smartest. I'm smart enough to see that.

Hay


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lousy taste in music

And you have lousy taste in music. I'd rather listen to the song birds around here than what Nancy and kwoods have to offer.

Hay


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

Shorter Hay-daze thread:


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

OK, Just to make things more fair, take your brain, put it into a homing pigeon's body, complete with little teeny tiny feet and a beak for doing most of your work. No schooling of course. You're going to build a GPS device to get you home after I drop you off in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean?

Speaking of changing the rules...

Hay, now you are no longer talking about the creature known as "humans". Take a chimp's brain... drop it in a pigeon's body... conduct the same experiment.

Which one is most likely to devise solutions and solve the problems that arise from suddenly having appendages that were not part of your evolution?

Now drop the bird brain into the chimp's body or the human's body. Same question.

Do you really think the pigeon's intelligence is high enough to devise ways to function in the human's body?

Or is it the human intelligence that will overcome the problem of working with the bird's body?

My money is on the human intelligence.


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Unless you are training monkeys to pick coconuts, they don't have much to offer to capitalism.

Here is the conclusion of a professional monkey trainer:

Somporn Saekow, for one, was notably unimpressed by the cleverness of his monkey pupils. “To teach the stupid,” he observed, “you have to make yourself stupid like them.”

When trying to train chimps to work in a factory :

... the chimps had turned in a notably lackluster performance in their one day on the job. They only managed about ninety minutes of work and slowed down the factory; it probably didn’t help that Bobby, as one reporter wrote, “did handsprings and jumped up and down on a conveyor belt.”

The article also discusses animal intelligence citing foresight as what distinguishes us from them.

Monkey business carries the special horror of absolute enslavement: for what else can it mean to have enough intelligence to perform a human task, but not enough to see beyond it?

Here is a link that might be useful: monkey business


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"You people need a break"

That was so cool. Thanks for the link. It must be nice to be coordinated. :-)

Speaking of which, do you know that monkeys (and other primates) can't keep a beat? Apparently they don't have the necessary components that allow their brains to measure those sound inputs and anticipate the next one. I guess that's one thing we have over them. Well, some of you anyway. Some of us are so klutzy that we look like monkeys when we "dance".


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"We're talking about homing pigeons, here. (See the OP if you need a review). Just to keep things fair and even, you can't beg or bring along a credit card."

I guess you're right, I can't do what a homing pigeon can do if I insist on pretending I'm a homing pigeon (minus the wings, though, no matter how fair and even you try to make it).


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pnbrown:

"I guess you're right, I can't do what a homing pigeon can do if I insist on pretending I'm a homing pigeon (minus the wings, though, no matter how fair and even you try to make it."

OK, how about we keep you in a cage at night, train you to work in an factory and reward you with bottles of coke. The chimps did it for 90 minutes. How long would you last?
Just to keep things fair.

althea:

"The article also discusses animal intelligence citing foresight as what distinguishes us from them:

"Monkey business carries the special horror of absolute enslavement: for what else can it mean to have enough intelligence to perform a human task, but not enough to see beyond it?""

I keep making the point around here that "if I were as shortsighted as you...".

People will blow $2000 on a spending spree to New Orleans in their youth, money that would grow to about $65,000 by the time they want to retire at 70.

It costs big bucks to raise kids, but I saw the other day that 20% of the teenage mother's giving birth were giving birth to their second kid.

You really think we got foresight as a species?

Interesting Wiki article: Animal Cognition.

"Reasoning and problem solving
Closely related to tool use is the study of reasoning and problem solving. It has been observed that the manner in which chimpanzees solve problems, such as that of retrieving bananas positioned out of reach, is not through trial-and-error. Instead, they were observed to proceed in a manner that was "unwaveringly purposeful."[65]
It is clear that animals of quite a range of species are capable of solving a range of problems that are argued to involve abstract reasoning;[66] modern research has tended to show that the performances of Wolfgang Köhler's chimpanzees, who could achieve spontaneous solutions to problems without training, were by no means unique to that species, and that apparently similar behavior can be found in animals usually thought of as much less intelligent, if appropriate training is given.[citation needed] Causal reasoning has also been observed in rooks and New Caledonian crows.[67][68]"

Lionheart, don't encourage me. There's lots of wonderful dance videos of this sort out there.

Two more I was looking at today.

Dance, dance, dance!!!

I think that the rules in these is that the couple is competing as a couple, but they don't get to choose the song. Not choreographed like the one above.

I want to be able to do this.


Not likely, but it sure is fun trying.

Hay


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Cogitate this:

We think we're so special because we can "Think". Sets us a bit higher in our perception of the universe.

Really? Read just about ANY thread on this forum and tell me how productive is our "Thinking". I shutter at some of the "thinking" I hear from some people.

Go look at any thread we create here on religion. Here's one: Is faith a choice? "Thinking" at its best.

I'd love to see a test, if it were possible, to determine if Monkeys sit around all day debating which one knows the true God.

I hadn't noticed it the first time around, but the first link I gave in this thread, the link that set us off in this discussion was written by one of my favorite writers and researchers, Frans de Waal.

He's just published a new book.

Do We Need God to be Moral?

We "thinking" humans spend a lot of wasted time and effort with our "religion". Go round and round with it. Kill for it. Create hierarchy around it. On and on and on. "Thinking".

Have you ever seen Monkeys going to church on a wonderfully bright, sunny day?

"Chimps and bonobos and other primates clearly show empathy with others who are suffering. They have a sense of fairness, they take care of those in need, and they will share what they have with others who are less fortunate."

Faithfully yours,

Hay


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Oh, and....

We need to work dance into this before I go.

I'm always saying to the women (or men) I'm trying to lead: "Stop thinking!"

It's one of the worse things followers on the dance floor can do.

Hay


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

Now we are getting to it: stop thinking and follow your leaders.

I look forward to watching Hay-forth "shutter".


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

"Now we are getting to it: stop thinking and follow your leaders.
I look forward to watching Hay-forth "shutter".'

Need more proof?

Q.E.D.

Hay


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

Humans have an average IQ. That average has been labelled as 100. If we took 100 or 1000 or 10000 chimps and had them take a non-verbal IQ test I would be willing to bet any money that the average would be in the human moronic range, if not lower.

Your absurd premise that a large number of humans are as stupid and unforesightful as chimpanzees is....absurd.


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

"Humans have an average IQ. That average has been labelled as 100. If we took 100 or 1000 or 10000 chimps and had them take a non-verbal IQ test I would be willing to bet any money that the average would be in the human moronic range, if not lower."

Any money? How much you got?

Here, take the test yourself.

"Your absurd premise that a large number of humans are as stupid and unforesightful as chimpanzees is....absurd."

All that great ability to think and this is what you come up with?

You know how we're always trying to get the dumb animals to learn our language and the dumb animals never seem to be able to live up to our hopes?

If we're so smart, why can't we learn THEIR language?

Dumb animal's language too difficult for you?

Hay


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

Hay, I must confess that I did not read the linked article or whatever it was that began this OP, and have not really participated in the discussion, except to note that non-domesticated animals seldom make good pets... but I do sometimes think that monkeys may be, or are, smarter than many a human being...

In light of today's society in general, as seen through my eyes, I just wanted to throw that out there as a personal opinion, or observation.

Please, do carry on. :-)


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

  • Posted by kwoods Cold z7 Long Is (My Page) on
    Tue, Apr 9, 13 at 9:51

Why does it matter? Are they organizing, coming for our jobs, citizenship or something?

"Read just about ANY thread on this forum and tell me how productive is our "Thinking". I shutter at some of the "thinking" I hear from some people."

You are right, the monkey forums are far more intellectual.

Here is a link that might be useful: Smarter?


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

I forgot about the superior intelligence of The Planet of the Apes. Us Earthlings were lucky to develop civilization before the accursed Apes could get a leg up on us. Since intelligence is not in our favor, our success must have come because of our breeding advantages of having larger families. Or some such nonsense.


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

Well, I - for one - am often bemused by those not knowing the difference between shutter and shudder.


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

  • Posted by kwoods Cold z7 Long Is (My Page) on
    Tue, Apr 9, 13 at 10:35

I don't think it was a malaprop. I think Hay shutters at some of the thinking.


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

"Well, I - for one - am often bemused by those not knowing the difference between shutter and shudder."

I'll work on that.

Very intelligent observation on your part.

Hay


 o
A rock is smarter than some of you. Sorry.

With Marshall and Kwoods coming in at a tie for second place.

Hay


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

  • Posted by kwoods Cold z7 Long Is (My Page) on
    Tue, Apr 9, 13 at 11:03

A tie for second out of three.... pretty good for a furless monkey.


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

Don't go feeling so self assured, Kwoods. Look at your competition.

The three of you together still wouldn't be able to roll a six foot tall dung ball in a straight line in the middle of a desert in the middle of the night.

Even with Nancy's help.

Gotta go. I may be able to finish my taxes today. We humans have created such a simple system that it takes a book only 763 pages long just to TRY understanding what's going on.

Hay


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

  • Posted by kwoods Cold z7 Long Is (My Page) on
    Tue, Apr 9, 13 at 11:29

Well, you could always enlist some help if you get stuck...


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

The smart thing is that the three of us (even with additional assistance) wouldn't want to.


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

How about ten grand, big shot? You get the experiment set up at some ivy-league, at your cost, according to our mutually agreed parameters, and then I'll put the money up.

Meanwhile i'll be rolling dung-balls in the garden.


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

  • Posted by kwoods Cold z7 Long Is (My Page) on
    Tue, Apr 9, 13 at 12:18

"...wouldn't want to."

Oh, I don't know... spending a night in the desert with Marshall, Duluth and Nancy has a certain appeal to me... does it really have to be a 6' ball?


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

I think Hay was loosely calculating the Dung Beetle's capacity to some human equivalent.

We could eschew the rolling, rolling, rolling on the (Milky) river and swap stories while making s'mores.


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

does it really have to be a 6' ball?

I'm barely 5' so I would lower the average height/strength of the four of us. Maybe we can reduce the size.

I'm curious as to what type of dung we would be eschewing - or should we consider composting?


 o
RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

  • Posted by vgkg 7-Va Tidewater (My Page) on
    Tue, Apr 9, 13 at 17:10

6' ball of dung....so the dinosaurs didn't miss the ark?


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

In the fullness of time, all will be revealed.

That's premise #1 which "could" reasonably be true.

Logically, we just need one more premise to arrive at our conclusion - which may or may not be true. We're sticklers for arguments that have validity.


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

"How about ten grand, big shot? You get the experiment set up at some ivy-league, at your cost, according to our mutually agreed parameters, and then I'll put the money up."

Sounds good, how about we go with that little test I gave for you to do?

Just curious, how'd you do on your first attempt?

Hay


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

  • Posted by kwoods Cold z7 Long Is (My Page) on
    Wed, Apr 10, 13 at 10:03

S'mores!..... although the idea of a dung rolling contest does suppress the appetite a bit.

BTW, does the fact that monkeys fling it rather than roll it make them smarter or less smart than a dung beetle? Just trying to get a frame of reference since, apparently, leaving well enough alone puts humanity somewhere near the bottom of the intelligence scale.


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

"BTW, does the fact that monkeys fling it rather than roll it make them smarter or less smart than a dung beetle?"

Not sure.

But I do suspect that, if I kept you in a cage about 10 feet by 10 feet, you'd be flinging it rather than rolling it.

Can't say for sure, though.

We'll let pnbrown do this little experiment for us. Right before he takes the test.

Hay

Hay


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Whoops

"Hay

Hay"

Whoops, got me stuttering again. I'm working on it, Duluth.

Gotta go now.

Hay


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

  • Posted by kwoods Cold z7 Long Is (My Page) on
    Wed, Apr 10, 13 at 10:46

Depends on whether or not I had an unobstructed view of the milky way....


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

It's shudders and shutters, hay - not shudders and shutters and stutters.


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

Monkeys throw like girls; those delicate hands, and focus on things of the intellect.


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

... like when to start talking - perchance about the value of opposable thumbs. Throwing things served as a precursor to the emergence of language.


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

Beware of spider monkeys gathering above you in a Central American jungle. They will throw something: feces or tree branches!
Apparently they have a generational memory of humans using them as a food source. Can't say that I blame them.


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

  • Posted by kwoods Cold z7 Long Is (My Page) on
    Wed, Apr 10, 13 at 11:57

Ahhhh! I'm beginning to see Hay's point. Humanity, eternally locked in a battle of wits with spider monkeys. We eat them, they throw poo at Steve....


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

...I think they'll win. And when the last of their habitat has been clear cut, the spider monkeys will get together and start a cattle ranch.


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

Speaking of s'mores... try making them with peeps instead of regular marshmallows for an interesting twist!


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

I hope the spider monkeys don't throw poo on their cattle, or the health department will throw the book at the monkeys. Back in a cage for those guys (and gals) unless they hire some high-powered lobbyist/influence peddler/attorney. I can see it now: SMAC - Spider Monkey Amelioration Committee.

What does a dung beetle do when faced with incoming monkey poo?


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

  • Posted by kwoods Cold z7 Long Is (My Page) on
    Wed, Apr 10, 13 at 12:55

"What does a dung beetle do when faced with incoming monkey poo?"

Here's a hint, they wait for a clear night.


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

There are monkeys in this group that grab the hair of humans and use it floss their teeth.

Here is a link that might be useful: 10 animals that use tools


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RE: Monkeys are smarter than YOU?

With Incentive, Monkeys Can Coordinate

Researchers have found that monkeys can cooperate to solve a problem, demonstrating that coordination among groups does not necessarily require language. The scientists, who report their findings in the journal Current Biology, had a group of vervet monkeys play a game called the forbidden circle. A single low-ranking female was trained to open a container holding a large amount of food -- but only when dominant monkeys in the group stayed outside an imaginary circle. For anyone to get any treats, they all had to coordinate their activity and show restraint.

It took 30 trials, but after learning the rules, all the monkeys followed them.


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