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Hooray for Obamacare!

Posted by terriks 7 (My Page) on
Fri, Mar 16, 12 at 14:39

Even though it is not fully implemented, my family has already benefitted from Obamacare. My daughter is in a profession where she can make as much money freelancing as she can working full time, so she planned, and made sure that she had enough savings and quit her job to begin her freelance career. She felt that while she is young and unburdened it would be the ideal time in her career to explore different types of work in her field. She immediately had companies contacting her to engage her services, so all is well in that regard.

Unfortunately she was a bit naive in regards to buying health insurance. In the past 3 years since graduating from college she has not had a problem purchasing her own health insurance on two occasions when she had gaps while waiting for employer provided health care, so didn't think it would be a problem now. However, this time the largest insurer in California turned her down. (I'm not sure if she has received the letter yet telling her why)

Fortunately, because of Obamacare we were able to add her back onto my husband's policy provided by his employer since she is not yet 26. Of course, it is only a stop-gap measure, but it means that she will have continuous coverage and will be able to buy coverage through Cobra if necessary after she turns 26 to get her through until 2014 when the pre-existing conditions denial will be ended.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

That's cool - glad for you. I want universal healthcare, but this is an enormous first step.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

I've been fortunate to have had an employer provided health plan for the past 20 years. It's not the best available, but it has twice now saved my family from going into enormous debt due to excessive medical costs... I can't imagine where my family would be without it.

I would love to tell you that my employment success was due solely to my work ethic, which obvious comes into play. But there is a definite element of luck involved also; there have been at least 7 major layoffs at our company since I've worked here and many of my colleagues that were at least as productive as I have been let go.

I'm very pleased that soon my "neighbors" who have not been so fortunate, will also have access to affordable health care (and protection from resulting financial problems) which has been denied to them through no fault of their own.

I personally don't mind ponying up some extra $$ to assist my fellow citizens.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

I personally don't mind ponying up some extra $$ to assist my fellow citizens.

What GOPers do not acknowledge is that we always pony up for others in our society whether through taxes or private insurance.
Private insurance is based on spreading the risk around just like we do with taxes and entitlement programs.

If Reeps don't ever want to pay for anothers negligence, accidents or misfortunes, then they should not purchase insurance of any kind, because spreading risk and paying for others is precisely what the concept of private insurance is based on.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

It couldn't be any clearer, and yet...

I only wish we'd get the entire benefit a universal health care system could offer for everyone... but there's too much greed and ignorance swirling around us.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

I can't wait for the part where people only pay the fine instead of buy health care, or buy it right before they need it and then ditch it. Insurance companies can't survive like that, and Obama knows it--exactly as he planned.

Government controlled health care, which will HAVE to be rationed, will be in our future. There simply won't be enough money not to ration healthcare.

I don't want bureaucrats deciding whether people deserve a treatment or procedure, or we're just supposed to "take a pill" as Obama suggests older people might do rather than be treated.

I certainly hope Obamacare is overturned, with very few of the provisions retained--like the 26 year inclusion for one's grown children, and preexisting conditions allowed under certain situations.

Other than that, ditch it and start over.
Obamacare, fully implemented, is a nightmare on the horizon.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

I can't wait for the part where people only pay the fine instead of buy health care, or buy it right before they need it and then ditch it. Insurance companies can't survive like that, and Obama knows it--exactly as he planned.

I guess once again you associate with completely different people than I do. I don't know anyone currently uninsured who isn't going to jump at the chance of buying subsidized health insurance or join Medicaid when they can. The people I know aren't stupid.

As for anyone currently uninsured, or insured, who would want to pay a fine instead of buying insurance, I don't know anyone like that either. They would want to walk into the ER and get a huge bill, declare bankruptcy? Walk into a doctors office and pay cash? Instead of spending that same money on insurance, get all that covered and avoid bankruptcy?

As for getting cancer and then rushing out to buy insurance, I'm not so sure people are that stupid either. But we'll see.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Fri, Mar 16, 12 at 16:40

"I don't want bureacrats deciding whether people deserve a treatment or procedure"

....the private insurance companies are already doing this, and do not dare tell me I am wrong after what I went thru with himself !! I was told flatout that the friggin INSURANCE COMPANY, not his doctor, was calling the shots.

Oh I forgot ... let me stepford wife along ..."it's all Obama's fault"


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

Demi, can you explain why the Obama health care initiatives are so bad?
I look at the health care plans of other nations we seem to respect: Canada, England, France, etc. I see a lot to like. I think we should incorporate the best of their programs.
No more fear of losing home or not being able to help grandchildren achieve higher education goals due to unforeseen circumstances regarding ones health: either accident or un-diagnosed illness.
You seem to be one who thinks through everything, so convince me where I'm wrong.


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The young and irresponsible

As for anyone currently uninsured, or insured, who would want to pay a fine instead of buying insurance, I don't know anyone like that either.

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I do. An entire generation of younger people that can't stop spending as it is, and think that they are immortal and can do without health care insurance.

Many of them can't manage to move out of Mom and Dad's house, do you think they are going to pay for health insurance? What's the fine, $400? For many that's cheaper than premiums.

When they begin to think they need it, THEN they'll get it.
In the meantime, less people paying in. Some of these are people that enjoy health care through their employers, and that will be out the window, because the employers can pay a lesser fine, too, and not insure employees.

Let's see how that plays out if Obamacare stands.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

I know that some Americans think I must be flat out lying but we have much less interference in our personal health care than Americans do by a mile!

We have no bureaucrats calling the shots on what treatments we get...NONE, ZERO, ZIP.....

It is true that some things are not covered by universal healthcare but it's the procedure that is covered, or not, not the individual.

For example, cosmetic plastic surgery is not covered...for anyone. Plastic surgery as a result of an accident, fire etc is covered...for everyone.

There is NO time, NONE, that any proposed medical treatment for an individual is ever refereed to any government bureaucrat to determine if that procedure should be done or not.... NEVER!

Believe what you will but it is the truth.....

.....and of course my regular disclaimer.

Universal healthcare ain't perfect. We must constantly look for ways to extend care and reduce costs ( not the other way around which is the insurance company model) but it beats the he!! out of what is happening in the US.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

So Demi, you want to keep the provision that allows a 26 year old to be on the parents policy but you would dump the provision that prevents insurance companies from dropping policy holders including children due to previous medical conditions?


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

I'm somewhat familiar with the Canadian system as it exists in British Columbia having been involved with it with my parents in their end of life care.
My mother and I have/had the same autoimmune disease and so I have compared how it was handled up there with how it was handled for me down here. My older brother now has the disease and so I have also compared his care.

For 10 years now, I've fought with the insurance company, my doctor has fought with the insurance company to pay for an eye exam that is required every 6 months because of a medication I take. They insist it is a test for color blindness and therefore not covered.
The test is required to prevent blindness, a rare side affect of the medication.
No doctor will prescribe the med. without a 6 month exam.

My mother's eye exam was covered , none of the hassles that I go through every 6 months.

But if you're of the mindset that everything we have in this country is better than any other country, then no amount of anecdotal or other evidence is going to change your mind.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

Thank you, chase, for stating the facts about Canada's healthcare. Of course, certain people will never believe you, just like they can't understand we're not asking for free birth control, or making religious organizations pay for birth control. They will continue to ignore the facts and spew right wing talking points (bureaucrats making decisions, death panels, blah, blah, blah).

You are right, demi, that some young people do not think they need health insurance. I do not think it's as common as you make it out to be. I have a 25 year old daughter and not one person she knows thinks it's ok to not have health insurance.

The big difference is that people like demi are offended because they see it as paying for something for someone else (as she has stated many many times on this forum about all kinds of things). Others, see it as we all pay into it to bring the costs down for all of us and ensure that nobody has to file bankruptcy because they got a terrible illness.

Is it perfect? No, far from it. But, it's certainly a step in the right direction. And the lastest poll from Bloomberg that I linked on a different post has the majority of people either wanting it to stay as is, or at least wanting to leave it alone for now and see how it works, and make changes when necessary.

terriks - that is wonderful for you that it is working already and saving your family a lot of worry.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

I do. An entire generation of younger people that can't stop spending as it is, and think that they are immortal and can do without health care insurance.

Many of them can't manage to move out of Mom and Dad's house, do you think they are going to pay for health insurance? What's the fine, $400? For many that's cheaper than premiums.

Well, I have two that are out of the house on their own, and one that is graduating next month (and I am grateful that he will be eligible to stay on our insurance until he has a job with insurance coverage). It's really frustrating that we have raised a very responsible young adult who wants to buy her own insurance but was turned down. I suspect the reason is that she went to the doctor several times with "digestive issues", which I think were stress related, as her last boss was pretty overbearing - one of the reasons that she decided to freelance - to explore different types of work and companies.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

An entire generation of younger people that can't stop spending as it is, and think that they are immortal and can do without health care insurance.

Many of them can't manage to move out of Mom and Dad's house, do you think they are going to pay for health insurance? What's the fine, $400? For many that's cheaper than premiums.
When they begin to think they need it, THEN they'll get it.
In the meantime, less people paying in. Some of these are people that enjoy health care through their employers, and that will be out the window, because the employers can pay a lesser fine, too, and not insure employees.

Let's see how that plays out if Obamacare stands.

Listen to yourself...especially your last sentence. All you want to do is tear things down. Republicans have no senseible alternative plan for HC insurance reform. All they want to do is sit back with their arms crossed and say, " hmmff, look at all the parts of the Aff HC Act (AHA!) that don't work,..hmff, I told ya it would play out like this."

As far as what you say about young people, doesn't the part of the AHA that allows kids to stay on their parents policy until 26 somewhat address your concern there?

As far as goveernment control of health care. we already have that with Medicare and that seems to have worked alright for millions of people.

My solution to compromise this is an expansion of Medicare to cover all those 50 years old and over. That should take care of most people who get sick because that happens to most of us after 50. It would also reduce the price for private HC coverage since older folks (50+) would no longer be in the insurance pool.

As\far as those who would rather pay a fine than purchase health insurance, I'm OK with that, especially since they can get a subsidy to help them buy it if they can't afford to purchase it by themselves for whatever reason.

One thing is for sure. Repealing the AHA will only restore a broken system that was already destined to collapse with rising prices as fewer employers and individuals able to purchase insurance, and more uncovered health care costs spread throughout the system.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

Expand medicare to cover everybody, except those who can prove their income is below the poverty line, and they get Medicaid. Everybody pays in - 3 to 5% of their income, everybody is covered. Not tied to your job, free to move around the country.

And if you don't want to, fine - just pay cash, and if you go to the ER and need cancer treatment, they come after everything you have to settle the bill. Just like they do now.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

You all must realise that the problems stated her don't exist elsewhere. And in case anyone wants to deal with urbureaucracy that is people whose job it is to put as many obstacles up as possible to avoid a pay out call your insurance company.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

"Insurance companies can't survive like that"

GOOD. Maybe it will force some of them to reconsider their insane, out of control profiteering business model. Those corrupt bastards are bringing down our country, and the sooner they vanish the better.

A close family member of mine has advanced breast cancer, which necessitated resigning from her job last year to focus on her health. Her COBRA coverage ran out this month, just as the really intense and costly treatments have to start, and now she must wait 6 months before any plan will take her because of pre-existing conditions. She doesn't have 6 months to live. So the final legacy for her husband and 6-year-old son will be hundreds of thousands in medical bills. Thank you Aetna.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

  • Posted by patti43 10 Central Florida (My Page) on
    Fri, Mar 16, 12 at 19:49

Does anyone besides me remember when insurance companies were non-profit? Insurance covered just about everything and was very affordable. I worked for a large corporation and had Traveler's. They paid the whole premium and the employees reaped the benefits. Sometime in the '80's that changed. Now we have such a mess it just makes me sick.

I won't even go into how mad I get when I hear those sanctimonious conservative nuts saying what should and shouldn't be allowed for women's health care. GRRRRR!

Chase, I was glad to see how your health care works in Canada. Of course, conservatives say, "But they pay $$$$$$ in taxes to pay for it." Is that true or not?

If Congress hadn't stolen money from social security for all those years, we wouldn't be in this mess to begin with.

Sorry for the rant--whew, I almost feel better!


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taxes

lol patti!

My experience with national health care is in Germany, and the same question has been asked of them that you ask of Chase in Canada: "But you pay such high taxes for it, don't you?!" No. In fact, the German tax rate is about what ours is, and look at all they get for it.

What one can easily forget, as an American used to no other system, is that if health care is covered by taxes, that's an enormous chunk of money that's no longer taken out of your paycheck (and your employer's profit margin) every month. You would have to double my taxes to reach the sum I pay for medical insurance every year.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

Insurance Companies as Banks or something like that.

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Four insurance companies applied Friday to become thrift holding companies and acquire savings and loans, which opens the door for them to seek bailout funds.

Friday was the deadline to apply for funding from the Treasury's Troubled Asset Relief Program.

Any bank, savings association, bank holding company or savings and loan holding company established and operating in the United States was eligible to apply for some amount of capital from the bailout plan. Insurers and foreign-controlled entities were not included.

The Hartford Financial Services Group, Lincoln National Corp., Genworth Financial Inc. and Aegon NV all submitted applications to become holding companies to the Office of Thrift Supervision (OTS) on Friday.

Hartford (HIG, Fortune 500) is seeking to acquire the Federal Trust Bank for about $10 billion, according to a company statement. Federal Trust Bank is a FDIC-insured savings bank owned by Federal Trust Corp. and based in Sanford, Fla.

Lincoln National (LNC, Fortune 500) applied to acquire Newton County Loan and Savings Bank and Genworth Financial Inc. (GNW, Fortune 500) applied to acquire the Inter Savings Bank, according to OTS spokesman William Ruberry. Aegon NV (AGN), a Dutch firm that owns U.S. insurer Transamerica, applied to acquire Suburban Federal Savings Bank, said Ruberry.

The Hartford said it would be eligible for anywhere between $1.1 billion and $3.4 billion in funds, under the current Treasury guidelines, although the company said the final amount would be determined by the government.

There was no information readily available about how much the other companies might seek from Treasury. Calls to Lincoln National and Aegon were not immediately returned.

Genworth declined to comment beyond confirming it filed with the OTS. However, the company had previously acknowledged on a conference call following its quarterly financial report earlier this month that TARP was one of the options it was considering as it looked to manage its capital and liquidity, said Genworth spokesman Al Orendrff.

"Securing capital at the terms available through the (Treasury's) Capital Purchase Program could be a prudent course in this market environment and would allow us to further supplement our existing capital resources," said Hartford Chief Executive Ramani Ayer in a statement.

Life insurance companies have taken a hit as the financial sector imploded in recent months. Insurance companies take consumer premiums and invest them in massive portfolios in order to make enough money to pay out life insurance claims.

Insurance companies have historically kept much of their investment portfolio in corporate bonds of banks and insurers. Therefore, insurance company portfolios are very highly exposed to the financial sector.

As the credit crisis caused banks to lose money, insurance companies have seen a significant chunk of their investment portfolios disappear.

At the end of October, Hartford Financial, MetLife (MET, Fortune 500) and Prudential Financial (PRU, Fortune 500) all reported a brutal third quarter as they took massive writedowns on investments in financial companies that lost significant value. There was talk that the government might extend bailout rescue efforts to the insurance sector but that has not yet materialized.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

I'd give just about anything to see a system set up that emulated what Canada, Germany, France, and other countries had, combining all the best points from each. We could have a totally affordable, non-government invasive, health care system, including preventive care, that covered everyone equally!

I think it's that last part that bothers some so greatly... "it would cover everyone equally".


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

D52 said;
if you go to the ER and need cancer treatment, they come after everything you have to settle the bill. Just like they do now.

Not sure I understand David.
Are you putting cancer patients in a different class within your preferred single payer plan?
I do like Medicare for all though.
I was just suggesting the age of 50 as a compromise
to the Aff HC Act, where those under 50 would still be mandated to purchase HC insurance, but would have
cheaper premiums since the old and sickly 50+ people would no longer be in the pool of insured.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

So, people talk about universal health care systems working in other countries. I've been looking around and can't find where it's actually working well. Sounds like lots of user abuse, refusals for needed treatment, waiting lines, and financial woes for those systems. Does anyone know of a good model for the U.S.? Seriously.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

Maybe you should learn a bit about how health care is provided in other countries. Universal coverage doesn't necessarily mean Socialized Medicine.
My relatives in Canada and Sweden are happy with their healthcare.

Here is a link that might be useful: Five Myths About Health Care in the Rest of the World


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

Universal healthcare here is by no means perfect but it's very, very good and, while Canadians may grumble about this and that, just try and tinker with it too much or take it away. Then you will see just how aggressive , passive Canadians can be!

Much of what you hear in the States is exaggerated or out and out lies. Yes you can go find a disgruntled Canadian who will tell you a horror story or some exaggerated blurb on the internet but they totally misrepresent the system.

The biggest challenge is finding ways to extend coverage and minimize costs. There is no doubt that any aging population means some things will have to change.

No it's not perfect but , as a health care system, it by far and away better than what you folk have under private insurance healthcare


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

Heri, my point is that if you are uninsured and end up having to undergo expensive hospital treatment, the hospital will come after you for everything you have - the reason that the majority of personal bankruptcies are due to medical expenses.

There is an interesting column in todays Washington Post about the individual mandate, and argues that those now paying insurance premiums should logically be the ones howling for this, not the other way around - the uninsured are costing them about $1,000 a year in extra premiums.

Here is a link that might be useful: link to WaPo column


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

I agree David, the insurance mandate would seem to appeal to those who call for personal responsibility and for the no payers to stop costing the rest of us taxpayers. And I keep coming back to the (to me) obvious point that even with the taxpayer cost, its easier to subsidize insurance than to subsidize uninsured medical care.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

I agree David, the insurance mandate would seem to appeal to those who call for personal responsibility and for the no payers to stop costing the rest of us taxpayers.

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Of course.

But there are those of us whose principles are more important than money.

I do not believe the government should be able to dictate that we buy a product.

Slippery, slippery slope.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

its easier to subsidize insurance than to subsidize uninsured medical care

But by choosing to subsidize uninsured medical care the usual suspects can rant against ineffective and wasteful government. A real win-win situation!


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

I'm curious how other insurances are handled in the US. Must you have car insurance? What about flood insurance?

My friends, who just bought property in Florida, said they had to buy flood insurance. Perhaps I misunderstood.

Does the government mandate unemployment insurance or is it voluntary? What about work place accident insurance? Must employers provide it?


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

I do not believe the government should be able to dictate that we buy a product.

Gee, it worked so well for car insurance. You wanna car? You have to get insurance. Sure, you don't have to have a car. But if you want one, you have to buy the insurance to go with it. How disastrous has that been?

You gonna get sick? You need health insurance. And since you can't guarantee that you'll never get sick, you gotta get insurance.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

But there are those of us whose principles are more important than money.

I do not believe the government should be able to dictate that we buy a product.

But the government dictates that hospitals must treat ER patients. And there are some of us whose principals include not letting somebody bleed to death on the street in front of a hospital because he can't locate his insurance card after the car wreck.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

And there are some of us whose principals include not letting somebody bleed to death on the street in front of a hospital because he can't locate his insurance card after the car wreck.

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Has this ever happened?

Has anyone bled to death because an insurance card wasn't found?


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

But there are those of us whose principles are more important than money.

If you already buy insurance (which you probably already do Demi), how is your principle being breached by the insurance mandate? The only ones whose principles are being effected are those who don't or can't buy insurance and who cost everyone else money for their inability to pay for their care without insurance. Besides, its not like by standing up to some no-gov't principle that you don't get dinged by a payment whether it be for higher premiums or higher medical costs in general. Surely economics counts in there somewhere.


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Taxed with your first breath?

I agree with the practicality, but whether I'm affected or not (I do buy insurance and think everyone should) I still do not believe the government should or can force everyone to, simply because they exist.

That's how this is different than being required to purchase insurance to operate a vehicle on highways, or to operate a business.

This law requires that even a "mountain man" living in the wilds on his own, with no plans to go to a doctor or be treated if he got sick--make a purchase simply because he exists.

It's the principle that is important to me, although of course mandating insurance would help my pocketbook and would not affect me because I already purchase health insurance.


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are you unaware of the law?

Demi, as I'm sure you're aware, there is a Federal law that states that an ER room must stabilize any patient who walks in the door, insurance or not.

And as you might know, if you've ever visited an ER for a medical emergency, they are very adamant on taking down all your information, and then billing you for any expenses not covered by your insurance, and after the bill is presented, start charging you 1.5 or 2% interest a month. And if you aren't making payments, they can take you to court and try to garner your salary, or and at the end, sell your account to a collection agency. All of which I find to be compelling reasons to want to buy insurance, and with Obamacare, they will help you pay for it.

You may have read about the large, urban hospitals who send their ambulances with destitute patients to other hospitals so they can treat them, saving themselves some money. The doctors do that here as well, intentionally sending ER patients to the one privately-owned hospital in the area, the one that won't normally take Medicaid.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

This all lessens the profits yielded, including the healthindustry's shareholders.

Profiting from people's misery and suffering.

Such compassion.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

This law requires that even a "mountain man" living in the wilds on his own, with no plans to go to a doctor or be treated if he got sick--make a purchase simply because he exists.

If that is your only reason then I'm sure they can wiggle out exemptions for people living in remote areas. And should he ever get sick, then they can just note that he won't be treated (and sounds like he won't even attempt to get treated anyway).

But 99.9 percent of people should be coverable and be required to be covered so that the rest of us don't pay for them.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

Seems to me that there are only a few choices.

Do not mandate coverage and have the tax payer pay the bills of those who don't bother or can't afford insurance.

Refuse to provide any medical services to those without insurance.

Mandate insurance so that the tax payer is not stuck with the cost of medical care for those who choose to roll the dice on their medical needs , or worse yet , deliberately don't get insurance because they know someone else will pay.

Of those three choices it seems to me that mandated insurance is the logical choice.

Medicaid is tax payer paid coverage, why should they not have to contribute to that which they enjoy?

As for the mountain man......even though it is mandated, he isn't likely to be getting insurance or paying taxes.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

The mountain man should join the military, do his 20 years, and be covered, along with his wife and minor kiddies, for life - all on the taxpayer dime.

/then go hunt the Yeti, being free from fear of inadequate coverage.


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just a further thought

I'm currently reading the Pulitzer Prize book about Dr Paul Farmer, the guy who worked in Haiti, Peru, Russia, and Boston on communicable diseases - who points out that public health is just that - public - and a highly infectious disease doesn't care much if you are Republican, Democrat, have decent health insurance or not. Much of the book is about the rise and treatment of drug-resistant TB around the world. This is pretty scary stuff.

Locally.....

Posted: Friday, March 2, 2012 12:00 am

Colorado public health officials are concerned about a case of tuberculosis found in a Longmont High School student late last year that apparently has spread the bacteria to more than 100 other students and faculty members.
Out of 900 students who came in contact with the ill classmate, latest reports are that 108 have tested positive for TB.

It’s not unusual to find latent TB in elderly people who might have been exposed decades ago before the disease had been all but eradicated in the United States.

Younger immigrants who have been vaccinated also carry antibodies and can test positive. Generally, people need to be in constant close contact to become infected, and even family members of people with the disease don’t get it.

But Dr. Randall Reves, medical director for the Denver Metro TB Control Program, said, “For people that live weeks with someone that has TB, about a third may test positive.” However, all of the new latent cases appear to have spread from that one person, he said.

The disease spread across the school.

“It ended up being a particularly infective case,” Reves said. All of the people who have tested positive will be treated with antibiotics.

Dr. Michael Iseman, a TB specialist at Denver’s National Jewish Hospital, also was concerned. “It was really striking when I first heard about it,” Iseman said. “Part of it is you have the expectation that young people would be healthy.”
Tuberculosis is a major public health issue, Iseman said, and one of the diseases whose treatment is enforceable by law.

“If you have high blood pressure and don’t take your medicine or if you have diabetes and don’t take your insulin, that’s your choice,” Iseman said. “But if you have tuberculosis, you have two options: You can take your medication or you can be incarcerated.”

There are about 9 million new cases of tuberculosis every year in the world, he said, and about 1.5 million related deaths.

The disease is rare in the United States because of effective drugs and a decision more than two decades ago to institute a policy of directly observed therapy, which means that people who have active cases are treated and health officials make sure they take their medicine. Iseman said that the movement actually started in Denver.

The World Health Organization has tried to do that internationally but in many cases people fail to take their medication.

“In other places,” Iseman said, “observation was not provided and in doing this they created drug resistant tuberculosis.”

What’s happened is that if the bacteria is not eradicated in a patient, new forms can evolve. “The two best drugs have been lost to drug resistance,” he said. “That had great implications. The disease is not readily curable, treatment is more expensive, less effective and takes 18 months instead of six months.

“We’ve really been impaled on the rising percentage of drug-resistant TB cases around the world.”
snip - end quote

Yep, the gubmint will throw you in jail if you don't take your 6 month course of anti-biotics.

Here is a link that might be useful: link


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

I agree with Chase... when a system is nationwide, there are bound to be some issues that crop up, but overall, a universal health care system would still be a million times better than the system we deal with now in the US!

Profit over people, or worse, profit from the suffering of people is abhorrent.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

"the reason that the majority of personal bankruptcies are due to medical expenses."

YOU LIE!!!

Another case of Conventional Wisdom, not wisdom.

It's a twisting of the original data to make it look like that. The essence of the lie is that those who do go into bankruptcy will, as you'd expect, not have paid their medical bills, along with everything else, and so,

"Voila!!!, Bankruptcies are caused by medical expenses!!!

Conventional "Wisdom".

I simply cannot keep up with all the myths that keep being perpetuated around this forum. I try.

Hay


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

More questions about how the US will fare with universal healthcare... an Indian was in my office the other day and I shot comments made about universal healthcare to him so I could hear the inside scoop.

He told me, that in India, there is universal healthcare and there is also private insurance. A dual system. If one has money, and they receive better/correct care, oftentimes, more quickly than those who only have universal. That is, the poor are still marginalized.

Will this happen here? I can easily see it.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

"Will this happen here? I can easily see it."

Remember a couple of years ago when there was a bit of a supply problem with a flu vaccine?

In Canada it was, I think the Hockey (Basketball?) team (MONEY), that ended up getting in front of the line.

In the USA, it was Federal government employees (POLITICAL CONNECTIONS) getting in the front of the line.

Hay


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

begin quote : "Medical problems caused 62% of all personal bankruptcies filed in the U.S. in 2007, according to a study by Harvard researchers. And in a finding that surprised even the researchers, 78% of those filers had medical insurance at the start of their illness, including 60.3% who had private coverage, not Medicare or Medicaid.

Medically related bankruptcies have been rising steadily for decades. In 1981, only 8% of families filing for bankruptcy cited a serious medical problem as the reason, while a 2001 study of bankruptcies in five states by the same researchers found that illness or medical bills contributed to 50% of all filings. This newest, nationwide study, conducted before the start of the current recession by Drs. David Himmelstein and Steffie Woolhandler of Harvard Medical School, Elizabeth Warren of Harvard Law School, and Deborah Thorne, a sociology professor at Ohio University, found that the filers were for the most part solidly middle class before medical disaster hit. Two-thirds owned their home and three-fifths had gone to college.

But medically bankrupt families with private insurance reported average out-of pocket medical bills of $17,749, while the uninsured's bills averaged $26,971. Of the families who started out with insurance but lost it during the course of their illness, medical bills averaged $22,658. "For middle-class Americans, health insurance offers little protection. Most of us have policies with so many loopholes, co-payments, and deductibles that illness can put you in the poorhouse," said lead author Himmelstein. "Unless you're Warren Buffett, your family is just one serious illness away from bankruptcy." snip / end quote

And everyone I know who has had to declare bankruptcy was due to medical expenses. And yea, they had trouble paying their other expenses as well. But generally, if you're sick enough to loose your job, and you have unpaid hospital / dr bills that the insurance refuses / deductible, these figures seem entirely reasonable to me.

Here is a link that might be useful: link


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

Not me! I bankrupted because of the defunct housing market. I worked 80 hour weeks while attending university full time to pay back medical bills in the 90s, though. I could easily see it happening.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

"... according to a study by Harvard researchers"

Go look, very carefully, as I did, at the original study, not someone's interpretation, (some one who "sees it" as you do), of the study. That's exactly my point.

"Another case of Conventional Wisdom, not wisdom.

It's a twisting of the original data to make it look like that.

I've shown the results on this forum before, but, as I've found out, once is not enough, twice is not enough, thrice.....

It's getting to be Spring and I simply don't have the time to go through it again.

For naught in any case. You can't argue with religion.

Hay


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

When I'm living in my native Australia, I'm your proverbial "mountain man", living alone, high in the hills, many miles from anyone.

But if I needed medical help and could drag myself into the nearest town, it'd be free treatment at the public hospital...

"Medicare is Australia's publicly funded universal health care system, operated by the government authority Medicare Australia. Medicare is intended to provide affordable treatment by doctors and in public hospitals for all resident citizens and permanent residents except for those on Norfolk Island. Residents with a Medicare card can receive subsidised treatment from medical practitioners who have been issued a Medicare provider number, and fully subsidised ("free") treatment in public hospitals.

Program funding

The program is now nominally funded by an income tax surcharge known as the Medicare levy, which is currently set at 1.5%. An exemption applies to low income earners.

There is an additional levy of 1.0%, known as the Medicare Levy Surcharge, for individuals on high annual incomes (which increased to $70,000 in the 2008 federal budget) who do not have adequate levels of private hospital coverage."

And where I'm currently living, in Bhutan (we've got real mountains here, too...called the Himalayas!), all medical treatment is also free. Fully subsidised by the government for all citizens and foreign workers like me.

It just needs a government with the will to do what's best for the people who elected it. And an Opposition Party that isn't in denial...

Regards,
Shax

Here is a link that might be useful: Medicare Australia


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yes, it causes bankruptcy

Many of us wish we had the same thing, Shax.

At the link is a .PDF copy of the actual Harvard Study. I don't see any thing that changes the conclusion presented above.

Here is a link that might be useful: link to actual study


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

I wish it would be "free" and that everyone would receive equal, expeditious help that is correct.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

Like I say, I just don't have the time.

It looks like I was not aware of this NEW study. I am aware of the OLD study, the one the NEW study references right up front:

"Background: Our 2001 study in 5 states found that medical problems contributed to at least 46.2% of all bankruptcies.

Methods: ...We designated bankruptcies as "medical" based on debtors stated reasons, income loss due to illness, and the magnitude of their medical debts...."

After the 2001 study, the one that said that medical problems "contributed to", I think you were here with the same "Medical problems caused"...

I just don't have the time to study and debate this, but I'm not surprised that in less than 9 minutes you found this article, studied it very carefully, and "don't see any thing that changes the conclusion presented above." You're fast.

But, "contributed to" is not the same thing as "caused". If "contributed to" can mean no more than someone lost wages because of illness, then pretty much ALL bankruptcies could be "designated medical".

I need to go work. I'm self employed so I can't call in sick.

Hay


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

Every bankruptcy I worked on was a result of people spending money they didn't have for things they did not need.

Sure, people have been forced to file bankruptcy because of high medical bills. That's very unfortunate and one more reason something needs to be done to reduce health care costs to make them reasonable for people to pay themselves.

I don't buy for a minute that if it weren't for medical expenses, over half of the bankruptcies wouldn't have happened.

Perhaps if some people saved money for a rainy day and didn't live paycheck to paycheck, they'd have money for medical expenses.

Donning armor now--because I do realize some people have lost jobs and spouses and have children with illnesses, and they HAVE to live paycheck to paycheck.

I'm not referring to those people.
I'm referring to people that spend rather than save any expendable income, and then when a medical or other emergency arises, they have nothing to pay their bills and then are referenced in a study that they had to file bankruptcy because they couldn't pay their medical bills.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

Demi, the medical costs of catastrophic medical care can be in the 6 figures (Santorum even testified to the 6-figure costs of his child that needed medical care) - alittle more than a rainy day fund don't you think?


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

I'm curious what people think an average family of four need in annual income to pay for housing, transportation, food, utilities, clothing, education, medical insurance, dental care. Forget the vacations, new cars, etc just the basic needs.

Also curious as to what amount is a responsible amount to put aside in savings for the unexpected.

I know there are regional difference, urban vs rural etc but just as a ballpark.

..and how does that compare to what the average income is for Americans.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

That question Chase, is unanswerable because of variables--where people choose to live, how they choose to live, where they choose to work. Notice I said CHOOSE because we all choose.

The "average" income might not be meant to support what people think it should--new cars, vacations, day care, large televisions, cable, cell phones, health care, insurance, utilities, groceries out, Starbucks, sports tickets and eating out five times a week.

People with "average" incomes are pretty much living with all of these things in their lives, and many are doing it by living beyond their means.

If the "average income" isn't enough, then people should increase their incomes. That might mean a second or third job, or giving up a second car and daycare and one parent staying at home with children, or not having children if one can't pay for them without going into debt, or it might mean working 14 hour days or picking up and moving to a different part of the country for a better job.

There are plenty of ways to make it on less, if people are willing to make the necessary decisions--like moving, like working those 14 hour days, like delaying having children, like growing a garden and hunting for your own food, like not having cable and buying used cars and clothes.

Bottom line is, you should live within your means or do what it takes to increase your means.


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Castastrophic

Yes, KT, a catastrophic illness without insurance, or even with insurance, can wipe out a lifetime of savings for those that have it. For those that don't, they still get care without having to pay for it. Of course I realize there are limitations.

That's why I think it's more important to make policy decisions that reduce health care COSTS and get employers out of the insurance providing business, than to cover everyone with a government sponsored program.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

And your suggestions to reduce health care costs are.....

I've posted several times now about my own situation with a catastrophic illness that had me in the hospital for 6 months, a year in a wheel chair, another year with a walker, blah blah blah. Even with insurance, we went through several hundred thousand dollars in savings just to pay the insurance premiums, deductibles, and what the policies wouldn't cover - you'd be surprised what they won't cover in something like that.

And I'll tell you this: there but for the grace of God goes every American.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

I know that, David. Insult to injury, especially to people that have tried to do the right thing, is egregious.

There but for the grace of God goes every American in many other unfortunate circumstances that have nothing to do with finances, as well.

As to your question, I don't have the answer.
If I did I'd be President.

But I am convinced that the government's involvement in Medicare and Medicaid has contributed to the rise in health care costs--from unnecessary visits and tests and procedure by and on seniors because they are on Medicare, to red tape record requirements that increase cost, it's worse.

The government's support for trial lawyers is another reason we have such high health care costs. We're in a litigious society where if someone doesn't get a perfect result, they can and often do sue doctors. We know the drill--high insurance premiums, more unnecessary tests, etc.

I remember when people needed an operation they saved for it or paid the doctor off over a period of time and even poor people were generally able to do so or the community help or the doctors forgave a portion of the debt.

I'd get the government out of a lot of areas in our lives that it now has control or attempting to gain control.

Some regulation, we need.
Control, no.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

I'm convinced that employer paid health insurance has contributed in the rise of health care costs.
A coworker just showed me 3D ultrasound video of her new grandaughter in utero. Was this (surely expensive) test necessary? Doubtful, but what the heck? The insurance was paying for it, and what a fun thing to show the grandparents.
I would much rather have the money from this type of unnecessary testing go to actual lifesaving care.


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Wastes makes High Costs

Exactly, Terriks. Good example.

I know of three young women who have all had babies in the last year. Everyone of them had at least two ultrasounds, and one had a third--some special photo to get a better "gander" the child.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

Most of the high cost of healthcare is from a small percentage of old sick people not mothers showing off their ultrasounds.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

After the tumor being removed from my first pregnancy, the next one (that made it full term, yay!)... I got an ultrasond every time I went. Since I was "high risk". I can tell you what high costs are after having a tumor removed and then followup every week for a year. And then close followup on the next pregnancy. Did I mention I worked 80 hours a week while going to university full time? Oh yea, I did. I was 23 and 26 years old.

I chose a low covered co-insurance (70% coverage and I paid 30%. 30% of huge bills is still huge. And the deductible was something like a $1000). I was thinking that being young was less of a risk. It wasn't a right judgment. For most it probably is, but not me. Nor my sister. Her pregnancy, child number 3, ended up with cerebral palsy? That was the same year child number 1 was diagnosed with leukemia. Not so for her either. They don't know what causes leukemia, nor hydatidiform moles, so it was just a huge freak any of these happened to us. Much less, all in the same year.

That's what insurance is about, risk. You never know when it'll hit you hard and you'll need it deeply and when you've "thrown" your money away on premiums.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

I read the 2007 study, and I read the Atlantic critique, and the fact still remains that even with more the difficult legal requirements for bankruptcy filing, the percentage has increased. Perhaps not the over-all number, due to the more stringent requirements, but the percentage increased.

When i was working today, I was thinking of who all I know who have had major financial hits with medical expenses, lose your car and/or house hits - the $40,000 kind, and I lost count at 30. But I think only three had to declare bankruptcy.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

You guys be weird, everywhere else in the west we have a better system than the one you cling to. Do you see need as a punishment for not doing better, or what? On one hand you do the flag thing but the less than perfect stars are seen as losers.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

McArdle the Cato shill? Snort.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

You see anything in her analysis that she got wrong or do you just enjoy running around snorting like a pig?

Hay


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

"Snort."

I really don't have the time to debate this topic right now. This is the time of year that I wake up one morning to find that I'm 3 months behind. The Lives of the Gardener.

But, sometimes I'm a little slow in connecting the dots.

Last night I'm listening to NPR like I do when I'm back and forth to my dance. It just so happens that the name, Elizabeth Warren, comes up in a segment I was listening to.

I woke up from a deep slumber: "Oh, that Elizabeth Warren!!!.

Talk about a shill!!!!

"A shill, plant or stooge is a person who publicly helps a person or organization without disclosing that he or she has a close relationship with that person or...."

That's Elizabeth.

She's been presenting herself as a scholar for a number of years, but....

... she's nothing more than a "progressive" politician, hiding behind her academic credentials. She's more politician than scholar.

I have no trouble believing that medical expenses can and do cause some bankruptcies. But, she exaggerates that effect. That's the issue for me. And now I have a better idea about what's going on.

She's now the front running candidate for the seat left by Senator Kennedy in Massachusetts. "Oh, that Elizabeth Warren!!!. (I'm a little slow sometimes....)She didn't just up and decide this a few weeks ago. Like the good politician she's turning out to be, she's been working on this for a long time.

Helps me understand better these medical bankruptcy "studies" and why they're so flawed and biased.

A shill, pure and simple.

Read about the shill here at Wikipedia



"Elizabeth Warren (born Elizabeth Herring; June 22, 1949) is an American bankruptcy law expert, policy advocate,

...

"I leave this agency, but not this fight... the issues we deal with - a middle class that has been squeezed and business models built on tricks and traps - are deeply personal to me, and they always will be.[31]"

...

On September 14, 2011, Warren declared that she intended to run for the Democratic nomination for the 2012 election in Massachusetts for the United States Senate seat currently held by incumbent Scott Brown."

Say no more.

I'm out of time.

Here is an article which points out many of the problems I had with her "studies".

She grew up in a very middle class family. Her father was a janitor and she was one of four kids. Formative years that can help to explain what drives her to twist data to suit her political ambitions.

Hay


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

Lets see - from reading the actual report, where they interviewed 2314 people who had declared bankruptcy.

of those, 29% said flat out that their bankruptcy was caused by medical expenses.

Another 34% of bankruptcy declarations had medical expenses greater than $5,000 and greater than 10% of their income.

5.7% had to mortgage their house to pay for medical bills.

38% lost over 2 weeks of income due to illness.

What I can see from this is that 30% is clearly due to medical costs, and then it gets a bit grey - but still realistic. Get sick, lose income, lose insurance, go bankrupt.

I'll be happy to argue all day long about how any one of us is just a major medical issue away from bankruptcy - insurance does not cover everything, and if you lose your job due to illness/accident, you lose your ability to pay.

I belong to an internet group that are all dealing with CIDP - the difference between how different societies deal with people who have chronic and debilitating illnesses like this is astounding. Here, its a pathetic joke.

Here is a link that might be useful: check out table 2


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

ROTFLMAO. Yeah, you gotta watch out for those children of janitors and their complicated policy analysis.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

McArdle hardly ever knows what she's talking about. She turns to others for an opinion on matters, and then promotes it as hers. Just like "her" (snicker) "thoughts" on climate change. DOA.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

It's not often I wish I lived in a colder place than I already live, but this is one of those times. I wish I lived in MA so I could vote for her.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

It really is amazing, David... you can spend your young life up to your neck in personal responsibility, as it's become so popular to platitudinize, fulfill your higher educational, career and family obligations... right down to having what's considered excellent insurance coverage through your very good job and employer, excellent credit, home ownership in an affordable bracket, and everything else. And in less than than the time it takes to say the words "personal responsibility", everything you've worked so hard to achieve, everything you've ever hoped for and dreamed can be taken away from you, crushed by one single accident that you have absolutely no control over, leaving you physically destroyed.

From that point forward, it's a daily struggle to maintain any semblance of what you spent all that time working toward, following the mold society set up and expected. And in due time, you become just one more of those waiting to be kicked while you're down. And each kick takes away one more rung on that ladder you were climbing so well... until there's nothing left to hang onto.

In the blink of an eye it's all gone, and you're now up to your neck in basic survival... trying desperately to maintain the home and life you built for your children. People you thought cared about you slowly disappear, quietly sidling out of the picture because you no longer fit into their world, their class.

And one piece of bad news becomes two, then three... and before you know it, you're forced closer and closer to complete bankruptcy.

It happens every day to someone... an unexpected event or diagnosis places you on a downward spiral into nothingness. Spouses walk out when the money runs out, some even leaving their own children behind to struggle.

When the chips are down, that's when you often find out how much others think you're worth as a human being. Even the legal system revolves around your monetary worth.

And while it's true there are a lot of public programs to turn to, they don't always help as much as you really need. They more often than not won't authorize the better necessary treatments, the better medications, facilities or doctors. These are things you have to manage on your own if you want them.

And in many instances, even insurance companies can't be counted on to hold up their end of a policy, telling you what they will and won't pay for, regardless of your need.

One unexpected accident is often all it takes to send someone down the road to bankruptcy court.

We've been lucky so far... we haven't had to file... yet. There have been times when we were hanging on by a thread, but we've managed fairly well, considering.

Too many others haven't been so lucky...

In the blink of an eye, folks... it can happen to anybody.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

Well, pretty quickly, you're a drain on the profits of your health insurance company, so they go out of their way to make life even more miserable for you. Its not like you can change policies, "Fire them" as Romney believes: you can't. Then, at some point, you miss a payment or two, - mine - sick in the hospital, the bill goes astray - and your credit score takes a huge hit. Oh, look, the car insurance, home insurance, and folks doing the hiring check out at your credit score - higher premiums, dropped coverage, and who wants to hire a sickness-prone person with a poor credit score?

But hey, boot straps, personal responsibility, and belief that the Free Market works for everything in life.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

If only some folks were cognizant of the fact that not every boot comes with a strap... and some are cut off purposely so you can't pull yourself back up by them.

If our systems worked as great as some folks believe they do, we'd all be rolling in plenty, and no one would ever have to miss a meal so their kids don't have to.

It must be nice to walk around with those blinders on... so you don't have to see the poverty and social sickness all around you...


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

Who cut the bootstraps?

No, we wouldn't all be "rolling in plenty."

There are ALWAYS going to be people that don't want to do what it takes to make it in this world. Always.

They'd rather whine and complain about what others aren't doing for them or what others did to them instead of bucking up and playing the cards they are dealt.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

Thats right!!!! It sucks to be them.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

There are ALWAYS going to be people that don't want to do what it takes to make it in this world. Always.

Yeah, isn't that the grasshopper? Clearly that role has always existed. What is at question is HOW MANY of them there really are. Conservatives overstate the quantity while liberals understate it.

Am I right?


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

There is no question that there is a huge need for education which includes self motivation,independent thinking, nutrition, physical education, the arts etc.

Too bad all we do is complain about what others aren't doing for themselves instead of putting real effort, including tax dollars, into teaching them, all of them, about bootstraps!


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

Posted by esh_ga z7 GA (My Page) on
Wed, Mar 28, 12 at 7:30

There are ALWAYS going to be people that don't want to do what it takes to make it in this world. Always.

Yeah, isn't that the grasshopper? Clearly that role has always existed. What is at question is HOW MANY of them there really are. Conservatives overstate the quantity while liberals understate it.

Am I right?

*

Yes, you ARE absolutely right, Esh.


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Fishing Instructor

Chase:

"Too bad all we do is complain about what others aren't doing for themselves instead of putting real effort, including tax dollars, into teaching them, all of them, about bootstraps!"

*

Just saw your comment; Chase, that is my mission--teaching and supporting others who teach young people about "bootstraps," opportunity, and expectations of society--concepts they do not learn at home.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

You are delusional...rationing boards are a fact. The same thing is taking place in the UK now. Senior citizens are being neglected and dying due to dehydration, malnutriition, .They estimate 14,00 seniors die each year because they don't have to provide proper health care. That is what is going to happen here as well...don't be so stupid as to dismiss rationing boards.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

Demi, I don't see how anyone can look at the strong trends over the past 30 years showing the income of everyone below the upper 10% trending level or downward and say this is due to their not working hard enough. It defies logic and common sense. Millions of people's incomes doesn't trend that way due to their individual failures. It has to be systematic - tax policy and global economic causes NOT failure to use bootstraps. You can't blame individuals for drowning if there are not enough seats for everyone on the life boat.

Gemini what do you think will happen to seniors if the Affordable Care Act is defeated which immediately removes the fix of the prescription donut hole and if the Ryan budget passes which makes Medicare a voucher system dumping the additional costs estimated at $6000 a year on seniors to fill themselves?


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REAL victims

Posted by kingturtle Zone 7 GA (My Page) on
Wed, Mar 28, 12 at 8:27

Demi, I don't see how anyone can look at the strong trends over the past 30 years showing the income of everyone below the upper 10% trending level or downward and say this is due to their not working hard enough. It defies logic and common sense. Millions of people's incomes doesn't trend that way due to their individual failures. It has to be systematic - tax policy and global economic causes NOT failure to use bootstraps. You can't blame individuals for drowning if there are not enough seats for everyone on the life boat.

*

KT, of course our economic downturn and irresponsible decisions by our government leaders, which continue to be made, by the way, have contributed to the fact that it is difficult for otherwise productive and proud people to be able to meet daily expenses. I know that. I have grave doubts that this situation will be rectified if a different president is elected; if this president is reelected I believe that the situation will ultimately be worse in the long run.

I acknowledged not everyone that is down on their luck or needs help fits into that category in my response to Esh.

I've said that so many times before.

The point is, we are NOT all every going to experience the same circumstances in life, but we all have the ability to do the absolute best we can with what resources we do have and we all have the ability, and I believe the obligation--to make our situation better, ESPECIALLY in a country like the United States of America, with so much opportunity and freedom, help from the government and compassion and help from charitable organizations and our citizens.

The attitude that "life isn't fair," or "I was born into these circumstances, " or "this happened to me" being an excuse for not achieving the best one can attain is nonsense.

It is nothing more than an excuse.
Now--there are those in society that do not have any particular goals or care to do any better than they do, and that's absolutely fine if that's what they want to do and they are not dependent on the taxpayers.

But to suggest that they are part of the "downtrodden" because they choose not to do better is nothing more than an excuse and victimization. We see this attitude every day--complaining and whining about one's lot in life and that's why they aren't rich, that's why they can't stay married, that's why their children couldn't go to college, that's why they can't pay their bills, that's why they can't afford a new car, etc.

And no, there aren't as many of them as conservatives would say, and there are more than liberals would say, as esh pointed out. But they are a vocal group, and a group that the liberals tend to hold up as being helpless victims of circumstances.

We all have circumstances in life--if Oprah Winfrey can make it, so can this group of people I'm talking about. If a man with no arms can take his children to school and go to a job using his feet and toes on a computer and to drive ,so can this group of people.

We have real people with real challenges like this getting out and doing whatever it takes to make their lives better--they're not whiners or excuse makers. The slackers and self described victims actually hurt those really in need by attempting to identify with them.

That is why I said it is my goal to help people understand their capabilities, their potential, and how to achieve them--and how not to whine and blame someone else when life happens to them.

The more young people we have becoming adults with less victim attitudes, the less people we have dependent on the rest of society, and the more than can go to the truly needy who are incapable by circumstances of caring for themselves.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

You are delusional...rationing boards are a fact.

I'm curious gemini40 - were/are you a supporter of Michelle Bachmann?


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

Demi, that is an admirable mission. I too was very involved with youth through programmes like JA. It is important that everyone do what they can to mentor youth but it's not enough. We must put more focus on EXCELLENT education, COMPETENT teachers, FLEXIBLE programmes that WORK, EXTENDING options not CUTTING them. ......... and that requires tax dollars!

Seems we want the outcomes but are not willing to invest in the process.

I'm not yelling with the ALL Caps.......it's just that saying we need "better" education" is not enough.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

I'm willing to invest in that, to an extent, but as I noted on another thread, government bureaucracy and waste does not contribute to the best value of our dollar.

Smart and experienced people, some retired businessmen and women and community volunteers, are pooling their resources and money, often supplemented with grants and tax dollars, to develop programs which actually work and reach the people that should be reached.

I, too, worked with JA when my girls were in school and it was so rewarding, but I think we need much more education than the JA programs, particularly for at risk young people of the preteen and early teen age--to teach them expectations about getting up and going to school or a job even when you don't want to or feel like it, how to manage money, how to save, how to focus and study, how not and WHY not to have irresponsible sex, how to set goals and achieve them, how to dress and how to speak and interview skills. How to choose a partner, and how it's okay to not have a partner. These are things many of teach our own children but others have no clue because they did not have parents or did not have good parents. This is indeed, the key to changing our society for the better.

Back to the topic of Obamacare, I do hope that regardless of what happens with the Supreme Court case, the best of the bill is retained or included in a new program.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

Back to the topic of Obamacare, I do hope that regardless of what happens with the Supreme Court case, the best of the bill is retained or included in a new program.

OMG, let me pick myself back up off the floor! "The best of the bill "!!! You think such a thing exists?


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

Demi, you are still arguing for survival of the fittest. If there are not enough seats on the lifeboat or if the yacht is powering by without stopping, some people are going to get left to drown no matter what they do - its basic math. I'm arguing that we used to have many more bigger life boats, people could afford to get personal flotation devices, and the water was not quite so deep or turbulent or filled with sharks. Apologies for the over-extended metaphor.


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Unsinkable

I understand KT.

I am, to a degree, but with the caveat that the fittest are compassionate and will help those that are unable to help themselves--onto those lifeboats.

For those that got drunk, partied all night, didn't help others get in lifeboats and ignored the warnings and pleas to get in the lifeboats themselves, and as the ship is going down, yell, "come back and save me," well, that's when natural selection comes into play. They should accept the consequences of their actions or inactions.


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

If your kid is born with a life-threatening condition that requires tens of thousands of dollars worth of treatment and your insurance company refuses to cover him, you should accept this and play with the cards you were dealt.

If you get t-boned by an uninsured drunk driver and are hospitalized for 6 months, lose your job, and limp out of the hospital having exhausted your finances trying to pay the insurance premiums, play the cards you were dealt with.

I liked this comment:

"Sotomayor, again pondering whether hospitals could simply turn away the uninsured, finally asks: "What percentage of the American people who took their son or daughter to an emergency room and that child was turned away because the parent didn't have insurance - do you think there's a large percentage of the American population who would stand for the death of that child if they had an allergic reaction and a simple shot would have saved the child?"

But we seem to want to be free from that obligation as well. This morning in America's highest court, freedom seems to be less about the absence of constraint than about the absence of shared responsibility, community, or real concern for those who don't want anything so much as healthy children, or to be cared for when they are old. Until today, I couldn't really understand why this case was framed as a discussion of "liberty." This case isn't so much about freedom from government-mandated broccoli or gyms. It's about freedom from our obligations to one another, freedom from the modern world in which we live. It's about the freedom to ignore the injured, walk away from those in peril, to never pick up the phone or eat food that's been inspected. It's about the freedom to be left alone. And now we know the court is worried about freedom: the freedom to live like it's 1804."

aka "Personal Responsibility"

Here is a link that might be useful: link to source of the comment


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RE: Hooray for Obamacare!

Demi, there are not enough well paying middle management positions in the lifeboat for everyone in the water to have one plus those other people way over there are willing to forgo the life raft and tread water while holding onto a floating branch.


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