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Chavez is what's wrong with liberalism

Posted by cornopean none (My Page) on
Tue, Mar 5, 13 at 19:20

Hugu Chavez championed all the things the left loves. Yet he left his country in disarray and he himself is reported to have amassed $2 billion.

but the left's confidence in govt will not be shaken. The govt is the answer and let all the evidence to the contrary be forgotten.

Here is a link that might be useful: Chavez worth $2 billion


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Chavez is what's wrong with liberalism

LOL

Chavez has nothing to do with liberalism.

You are just too funny.

But why are you so afraid of liberals?


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RE: Chavez is what's wrong with liberalism

but Chavez did all the things that liberals love. he nationalized the oil industry and many other sectors as well. isn't that a liberal dream come true?


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RE: Chavez is what's wrong with liberalism

Chavez, like most left-wingers, had a healthy disdain for Liberalism -- not unlike yours, Corn.


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RE: Chavez is what's wrong with liberalism

but Chavez did all the things that liberals love. he nationalized the oil industry and many other sectors as well. isn't that a liberal dream come true?

No. It's a socialist's dream, not a liberal's. You might want to read up on political philosophy to clear up your misunderstandings.


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RE: Chavez is what's wrong with liberalism

No, that would be socialism, "a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole."

Liberalism is a "political or social philosophy advocating the freedom of the individual, parliamentary systems of government, nonviolent modification of political, social, or economic institutions to assure unrestricted development in all spheres of human endeavor, and governmental guarantees of individual rights and civil liberties."

Here is a link that might be useful: link to definition


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RE: Chavez is what's wrong with liberalism

liberals and socialists are united in their belief that the govt is the answer, not the problem.

are you saying that Chavez should not have nationalized the oil companies? what policy of Chavez would a liberal disagree with?


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RE: Chavez is what's wrong with liberalism

"liberals and socialists are united in their belief that the govt is the answer, not the problem."

Conservatives and fascists are united in their belief that war and imperialism is a means to achieve national rejuvenation.

See, others can play this silly game also...


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RE: Chavez is what's wrong with liberalism

cornopean, it would be more productive if you would recognize that people have different beliefs and don't start out by painting everyone with the same brush.

Chavez was an avowed socialist. Socialism is not what liberals in the US ascribe to. You might like to poke fun and say it is, but that doesn't make it so. For better discussions, trying meeting people halfway.

You seem to have potential as someone to debate with, but you've got to recognize that there is some give and take.

By the way, did you see my last comment on the economist thread? I'm interested to see if I misunderstood your stance on that.


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RE: Chavez is what's wrong with liberalism

conservatives are imperialists? how does that work? which nation do conservatives want to make a US colony? I guess Zimbabwe would be a start. Maybe we should take Egypt too while we're at it.

and actually it was Bill Clinton who signed into law the policy calling for regime change in Iraq. Sorry to burst that bubble! He also tossed a few bombs at Baghdad if my memory serves me right. and as for that, I'll just point out that Obama kept Robert Gates on as defense secy. So.....evidently, Clinton, Bush, Obama are all fascist imperialists.

Here is a link that might be useful: Iraq Liberation Act


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RE: Chavez is what's wrong with liberalism

What a silly thread. Corn show little knowledge of Standard Oil of Venezuela, going back nearly a century, and the Venezuela share of ownership in many petrochemical enterprises in and near Venezuela, including extraction and processing. Rather than the traditional skimming off of profits but Venezuela elites and their reps in these industries, the Chavez government took up that role. The State petroleum company came to dominate and act beyond local markets. I remember buying petrol in Venezuela paying the equivalent of 25 cents a gallon when the comparable price in the US midwest was three or more times that subsidized price. That was 1973 or 74.


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RE: Chavez is what's wrong with liberalism

esh_ga the problem is that liberals in the US are suggesting the same laws that Chavez put into action in Ven. So....whatever terminology we want to use doesn't matter. I think that we can all agree that liberals in the US have confidence that the govt is the answer to our problems. Chavez had the same approach. He used the govt to advance his country's economy.

But let's make this easy. what policy did Chavez enact that liberals would disagree with? Is there one?


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RE: Chavez is what's wrong with liberalism

Another scintillating series of comments from our resident Einstein. Putting rocket scientists to shame, surely.


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RE: Chavez is what's wrong with liberalism

Let's be more specific. What laws are liberals in the US seriously suggesting (not just some left wing wackos) that Chavez also put into action?

Since you are the one making the premise, you be the one to specify.


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RE: Chavez is what's wrong with liberalism

Liberalism (that you continue along this line of posting paints only one clear picture) a preference for the sophomoric rather than analysis of a potentially luke warm, topic.
Some of us have been lambasting Chavez on and off for ages & it wasn't any of the CONS!
Tedious goading here on your part!
An invitation to a discussion might redeem, sometime in the future.
Too clever by far so far hasn't been!

This post was edited by labrea on Tue, Mar 5, 13 at 20:52


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RE: Chavez is what's wrong with liberalism

That's fair. Here are a few I grabbed from wikipedia:

1. nationalizing the oil industry;
2. trying to fix economic inequality by wealth redistribution;
3. a cheap credit program to help poor folk start their own business;
4. a "miracle mission" program which provided free eye care;
5. price controls on basic food products and production quotas for 12 basic foods.

see link for further details. so...which of these would a liberal disagree with?

Here is a link that might be useful: econ policy of Hugo Chavez


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RE: Chavez is what's wrong with liberalism

Off the top of my head, most of them with the exception of the middle three that have been part of US governmental concern for more than 75 years. There are differences between dictatorial edicts imposing such programs and legislative and court review of programs reviewed and passed by Congress and the Supreme and lower courts.

I realized today that many on the right have autocratic mindsets and have unease with democracy to the point of willing to reduce democracy for many people other than themselves and those they accept as like themselves.

Scary


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RE: Chavez is what's wrong with liberalism

I think that #1 and #5 are not something the average liberal agrees with. I know I would not support them.

#2 I would disagree with the way it is worded, but I realize that is how some (many?) conservatives describe the progressive tax system that we have in place today.


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RE: Chavez is what's wrong with liberalism

That list makes him a liberal hmm? Go figure~


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RE: Chavez is what's wrong with liberalism

conservatives are imperialists? how does that work?

Imperialism: the creation and/or maintenance of a country's power and influence through military force.

-Ron-


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RE: Chavez is what's wrong with liberalism

  • Posted by RpR_ 3-4 (My Page) on
    Wed, Mar 6, 13 at 15:17

The original thread title is wrong as being "liberal" means being for change.
Being "conservative" means changing as little as possible.

IF a country is left-wing those trying to move to the right are liberals.
Those trying to maintain left-wing standards are conservatives.

Same would hold true in the vice versa.


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RE: Chavez is what's wrong with liberalism

It IS semi entertaining to read most of it... but that's where it ends.


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RE: Chavez is what's wrong with liberalism

"conservatives are imperialists? how does that work?"

Actually, I was making a rather ludicrous statement of false equivalency, trying to match yours. Although upon further reflection, mine has arguably more validity than yours.

And it took me about 2 minutes to come up with mine, where yours seems to be a parroting of right-wing talking points that I've heard ad nauseum.


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I Shall Be Free

"...I'm liberal to a degree, I want everybody to be free, but if you think I'd let Barry Goldwater move in next door and marry my daughter you must be crazy. I wouldn't let him do it for all the farms in Cuba." .....

"I said, “I like Fidel Castro I think you heard me right”
And ducked as he swung at me with all his might--

Rita mumbled something ’bout her mother on the hill
As his fist hit the icebox -He said he’s going to kill me
If I don’t get out the door In two seconds flat-
“You unpatriotic rotten doctor Commie rat”

(b.dylan)

Here is a link that might be useful: Bob's motorpsycho Nightmare


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RE: Chavez is what's wrong with liberalism

Corn0 - A couple of questions you might entertain to explain what you mean and to possibly get beyond the jumbled terminology:

1.) Do you think that Obama is a Socialist in the same sense that Chavez was?

2,)Do you think part of Obama's agenda as President is to help his friends in the lower income brackets? Do you think that the "freebies" from government that they all get is why so many blacks and browns voted for him? And do you think that is the biggest reason Obama won the election?

3.) Do you think Obama is an ideologue who wants to redistribute wealth to those who do not work and therefore, do not deserve government assistance?

4.) Do you think that Social Security, Medicare, Unemployment , Veterans Benefits are Socialism and thus should be eliminated? How about Welfare?

5.) Do you think that our progressive tax system (where the wealthy pay progressively more than the poor) is just or that it has caused unwarranted wealth redistribution? If you think progressive taxation is unjust can you cite statistics, examples, or provide a link discussing unwarranted wealth redistribution as a result of Socialistic policy and progressive taxation in the United States.


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