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Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

Posted by rob333 (My Page) on
Fri, Apr 20, 12 at 9:05

I watch those shows like Ghost Hunters and Long Island Medium. I wasn't sure what I believed or thought, but the more I watch, the more I think that there is "something"???, very broadly. And I've certainly had my own experience. It seems like Christians do not believe in ghosts or mediums. I'm not sure what it was based on, but it seems like that's what I heard. It gets lumped into the witchcraft category. I was amazed, the other night that mediums do indeed talk to the dead and that ghosts are real. I had wondered, but now I know they're wrong.

So what are they basing it on?

1 Samuel 28
His advisers replied, “There is a medium at Endor [doncha love that Star Wars used the name?].”

8 So Saul disguised himself by wearing ordinary clothing instead of his royal robes. Then he went to the woman’s home at night, accompanied by two of his men.

“I have to talk to a man who has died,” he said. “Will you call up his spirit for me?”

9 “Are you trying to get me killed?” the woman demanded. “You know that Saul has outlawed all the mediums and all who consult the spirits of the dead. Why are you setting a trap for me?”

10 But Saul took an oath in the name of the LORD and promised, “As surely as the LORD lives, nothing bad will happen to you for doing this.”

11 Finally, the woman said, “Well, whose spirit do you want me to call up?”

“Call up Samuel,” Saul replied.

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she screamed, “You’ve deceived me! You are Saul!”

13 “Don’t be afraid!” the king told her. “What do you see?”

“I see a god coming up out of the earth,” she said.

14 “What does he look like?” Saul asked.

“He is an old man wrapped in a robe,” she replied. Saul realized it was Samuel, and he fell to the ground before him.

15 “Why have you disturbed me by calling me back?” Samuel asked Saul.

“Because I am in deep trouble,” Saul replied [through the medium, I assume. Or did he hear him? It doesn't say]. “The Philistines are at war with me, and God has left me and won’t reply by prophets or dreams. So I have called for you to tell me what to do.”

Here is a link that might be useful: Link which reflects the beliefs I've heard.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

Oh, contraire, Rob. I'm Christian, and I believe there is definitely something there--call it ghosts, spirits, whatever. Just cause we can't see it doesn't mean it's not there.

Like God :)


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

You never know when you might entertain an angel unaware.


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

Well then, cool. I was wrong. Wonder why others think that?


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

Dunno. Maybe you should have just asked us first! You could have saved yourself some research, LOL. That's okay; hard work is good for your immortal soul ;-)


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

  • Posted by vgkg 7-Va Tidewater (My Page) on
    Fri, Apr 20, 12 at 10:16

Mankind had continually made things up to fill in the gaps of the unknown. But no matter how wild our imaginations can be they are no doubt way off the mark.


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

Rob probably where you got the impression is that some say they are Christian but actions of a Christrian are not demonstrated through, words and feelings.

Everybody that say they are a Christian are not Christians. It is more than a word it is a life style and actions.

If you read a couple of post you will understand.

example: You never know when you might entertain an angel unaware.

Sometimes those that you entertain are not true angels.

" BE AWARE OF FALSE PROPHET WHO COME TO YOU IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING, BUT INWARDLY THEY ARE RAVENOUS WOLVES " Jesus Christ - ( MATTHEW 7:15 )

You must study, seek knowledge, check them out, investigate,... do some research . Just have FAITH and believe in something is not enough ,..!! FAITH must be based on knowledge, prove and evidence .


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

Sorry I didn't expound on that rob...it was just an acknowledgment that yes, I do believe there are spirits, both angels and demons. Thank you for fleshing it out marquest.


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

I don't believe in god or angels... but I do believe in apparitions or energy trapped or unsure where to go or what to do, perhaps having left this world too soon.

I actually captured a little girl on film from the graveyard across our road, which dats dates backs to 1700's and 1800's. When I tried to duplicate the photo, I couldn't. The girl was not there again. But there is a flat head stone where she was standing that indicates a young girl of about 8 died at that age from some type of influenza that passed through the area, or of something at that young an age.


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

I am a Christian and absolutely, I believe in ghosts/spirits/energy/God whatever.

I have had several experiences, and I have seen two photographs taken by an adult, and one by a child, in the last few years, of ghosts in photos much like Jodik relates.

I have seen an apparition which was a young girl in the bedroom of my cousin, who I was visiting when I was sixteen years old. Woke up, cold, and saw this "ghost" but felt her more than anything. She was by the door. Never had anything like that happen and I was scared to death, put my head under the covers and prayed.

The next morning I came to the breakfast table where my cousin was feeding her two year old, and her husband was eating breakfast before going to work. It was a old bungalow renthouse in a small town, and I'd never been there before or knew anything about it; in fact, I didn't know the cousin well, my dad had just started spending time with that side of his family.

Anway, my cousin asked me if I slept well and I kind of looked funny and wound up telling her the story. She and her husband just turned almost white and didn't say much.

When I finished, they told me their landlords told them that their 9 year old daughter was electrocuted in that front bedroom.

It doesn't matter to me what anyone says, I believe that everything, good and bad, and everything in between, comes from a Creator. That's why evolution and ghosts and all sorts of things fit into my beliefs, if they are, or they are our perception, they exist.

It takes a person with an open mind and willing to admit that perhaps their puny brains and beliefs can't possibly understand everything. It takes an open mind willing to embrace what they don't understand to be able to display faith and receive the many blessings and the knowledge from taking that "leap" of faith.

So many people are missing out on a life rich from knowing God because they won't let go and accept those blessings.


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

Depends on your brand of Christians.

The Catholic Catechism says it's a no no!

"Divination includes palmistry, reading of crystal balls, tarot cards or ouija boards. Divination, like spiritism and other attempts to gain occult knowledge, should be resisted as an implicit challenge to the omniscience, love and power of God." Our Sunday Visitor's Catholic Encyclopedia, Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Editor, Huntington, Indiana 1991, p. 316.
"When you come into the land which the LORD your God gives you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD; and because of these abominable practices the LORD your God is driving them out before you. Deuteronomy 18:9-12

Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. Philippians 4:8

That said the west of Ireland is loaded with ghost stories & apparitions & the locals don't bat an eye at the subject.
I don't believe in a single medium I've ever seen or met & I have met quite a few in my life.
I used to do tarot readings through my teens & 20's & I always said it was merely for entertainment purposes. Yet folks swore they heard what they needed. Go figure do I believe that the phenomena could be sure quantum physics is full of the strange & fanciful as much as an spiritual tradition is & all of these traditions deal with otherness.

Not a ghost though that time when your laying in bed & hear someone speak to you but your awake or feel like you've been touched but your awake. The term Hypnagogia should be used for that. Sometime s coming off some medications can also produce this half dream state where the dream & the current situation or conditions seem to overlap & refer to each other in curious ways.


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

I thought most Christian religions didn't officially believe in ghosts. It would pose a problem wouldn't it - where do ghosts reside between life, heaven, and hell. Is it purgatory or something else? What is the status of the soul of a ghost?


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

It would pose a problem wouldn't it - where do ghosts reside between life, heaven, and hell.

Perhaps they are waiting for their reincarnation.

Someone once told me that reincarnation was compatible with christian theology. These souls need to "get it right" or accomplish a goal before moving on to heaven. The ones that become so corrupted that they refuse to better themselves or decide to become evil get punished in hell.

So I suppose that reincarnation might explain ghosts. They are spirits just waiting for their next circumstance, their next body.

For the record, I don't believe in any of it. But I love mythology and legends.


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

There are a lot of scriptures that many believe refer to reincarnation.


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

Christians do believe that mediums, psychics and witches exist, they just believe that practice of such is a sin and Christians are instructed in the Bible not to have anything to do with the professions.

" Leviticus 19:31 states: "Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them�". Leviticus 20:6 says: "I will set my face against the person who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute himself by following them, and I will cut him off from his people." Deuteronomy 18:12 says that consulting mediums or channeling the dead is "detestable." Clearly, God sees these practices as sinful and completely without benefit."

The Bible teaches that there are spirit beings who can appear in our physical world. These spirits are identified as angels and demons; angels, the spirit beings faithful in serving God and demons, evil fallen angels who rebelled against God. I personally believe that people many times do see angels or demons; an example, the pastor seeing my Aunt at her funeral this year. Do I actually believe it was my Aunt. I can't imagine God letting her come back and see her family in pain over her death, but I can imagine Him sending an Angel to let the family know that she was healthy and happy again and that all was well with her.

"According to 2 Corinthians 11:14-15, demons masquerade as "angels of light" and as "servants of righteousness." Appearing as a "ghost" and impersonating a deceased human being definitely seem to be within the power and abilities that demons possess." I don't belive that a person can return to the earthly realm after they die. I do believe that some mediums and physics actually have the ability to communicate with spirits but not with the spirits of people who have died; as the Bible speaks against these professions I don't believe that the spirits they communicate with are angelic spirits.


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

There are a lot of scriptures that many believe refer to reincarnation.

I believe there is in the old testament. A Jewish forum I am on there are many who accept reincarnation as part of their beliefs. One told me you keep coming back to finish all the mitzvahs (God's commandments)


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

I've had too many experiences (and listened to others who have had same) to not believe that the dead often do come to the living in dreams, bringing messages. I believe there are dimensions beyond this that we can only guess at.


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

Lady, then I have a question for you. If the only spirits which exist are angels and demons, what was Samuel when he appeared to Saul? That's where the disconnect came in for me the other night. Angels aren't humans are they? So Samuel, a human, couldn't be an angel. And he's sure not a demon, as he was one of God's chosen prophets. So that's where I am confused.


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

If there is no life after this, how can spirits be trapped in this world?


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

Are ghosts only spirits trapped in this world? Why can't they be both places? Samuel sure was!


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

"But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words."

That's a pretty lively sleep, for culturally we have a survival of the ego & all it's attendant factors in ghosts. The soul has never really been described as the personality or anything quite like it but culturally the survival of the soul is overplayed with the things of this life.
Some Hindus believe in the atman "ones true self" thats not connected to any human idea, thought or attachment, the inner dweller who puts on new life, after new life the way you would change clothes never but changing it's true nature by these external appearances or human conditions. (when I was younger I always liked this version of eternal life)
Vivekananda lectured in the US in the early 1900's & claimed that fear of death drove people to insist on the after life being a bigger & better version of this life.

It was based on an insistence of perpetual happiness over perpetual truth & knowledge that an eternal self is not moved by fortune or misfortune, happiness or sadness or any of the other problems of the human ego/condition.
Bottom line "if it is you are" then that should be more than enough for all of us
. The notion then of unfinished lives trapped between worlds, dimensions seems more emotive than anything else.

For those who like Dr. Elizabeth Kubler Ross one of her later books "life after death" might be interesting for you.

I fear there is a mystery in it all!

I used to attend Maryanne Williamson's lecture on A Course In Miracles & the metaphor she used was when we return to reality it will be as if we are making the last judgment of those things our ego valued.
"you know I was confused & thought those things were me, my reality" so in that sense only what has always been true will remain because only truth exists & nothing untrue can have an eternal reality.
(Interesting but most of us still want to hook up with the loves of this life in an after life)

Hereafter is a nice little film with Matt Damon.
EDD & I are both grieving the loss of our little clown cat Helen today to want any more from her life just seems a bit selfish.
Curiously enough we have a pet psychic who lives next door she once offered her services & I told here I wanted to hear from a turkey my family ate in 1975 (she still speaks to me)


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

Samuel sure was!

Not sure if "trapped" is correct. "Summoned" to this world and then presumably would go back to heaven.

So maybe spirits have the freedom to travel back and forth between heaven and earth, to see their loved ones, make appearances at the places they perished, to warn people of harm (that's a popular ghost sighting) or just hang around old farmhouses.


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

Labrea, I've met some unique characters but you're the most unique and interesting. I'm glad your pet psychic is still talking to you.

My condolences to you and EDD.


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-RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

I join Demi in my condolences (((labrea and EDD)))


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

Rob, there are a lot of things in the Bible that leave me with questions. I, personally, believe that Samuel was brought back by God, not the medium, to give Saul the message. Some believe that it wasn't actually Samuel but a demon that appeared disguised as Samuel.

I believe there are demons and angels which can appear in the earthly realm. I don't believe that a medium, physic, witch or any other human has the power to call anyone back from the dead; only God would have the power to do that. Some people believe differently but that is my belief. I hope when I get to Heaven there will be lots of seminars because I have lots of questions. ;-)


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/RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

Yep, Lady-I have my "file it away for an answer later" category when my son and I have this type of discussion.


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

I'm so sorry labrea. Our cats own us, we don't own them, and they take up a big piece of real estate in our hearts.

I have to admit, I never believed in ghosts or whatever they are until my son died. He visited me early one morning, hugged me, I could absolutely feel it, told me he was so happy. I've never questioned it again. And I can tell you that it was real, but until you have experienced it yourself there is no way to explain how I know.


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Fri, Apr 20, 12 at 16:53

I talk to dead people.


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Fast finger

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Fri, Apr 20, 12 at 16:54

....oh and I see them when I talk to them. We really need an "edit" button on HT.


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

Well, for the longest time, the Catholic Church called part of the Trinity the "Holy Ghost" instead of the "Holy Spirit", so... what can we deduce from that? Obviously, the Church does believe in one spirit... so... ?

I've been in two places that felt very alive with the energy of ghosts. Make that three.

One, the old graveyard across the road. We are not the only people from the area to have seen the little girl. Others have seen her, as well. We've seen her twice. Once, when I accidentally captured her in a photo, and once out in the field next to the cemetery standing among some deer.

And one was a very large, very old Victorian era mansion up in Wisconsin. It was part of a very large farm, that I'm assuming belonged to a wealthy family of the time period. When one sits quietly, one can hear the clinking of glassware, plates and silverware, such as a dinner party in progress... though no one is there. Old music from a Gramophone can be heard, though faintly... and areas that were cordoned off with plastic as the house was being refurbished would move and wave of their own accord, though no windows or doors were opened, and the air was still. There were also some spots within that house that were cold to walk through... like a strange sudden temperature change.

The large house is littered with hallways and passages that just end, like a room or connecting hallway was walled in. The floor plan makes no logical sense. It would not surprise me in the least to find out that several murders or unintended deaths took place there, and the rooms were just walled in.

The home was owned by the parents of a friend, and they were in the process of remodeling, but the project turned out to be too costly, and they sold the property.

I can't recall where, or what town it was near... but we held several dog shows/get togethers on that farm, and no one would spend more than one night in the big house. We all preferred to sleep in tents, or in the smaller guest house.

The third was an old Victorian farmhouse we rented for a few years... I was in the basement doing laundry, and I distinctly heard the clicking sound of a dog's nails as it walks on concrete or a hard floor... you know the sound... and the noise a dog makes as it's breathing or slightly panting or sniffing... and I thought my Bulldog had come down to join me. I turned around, but there was no one there. No dog. Nothing. When I went back upstairs, my dog was asleep on the sofa. It turns out, someone who had previously rented the home had kept several large German Shepherds locked down in the basement, and I'm wondering if one died there.

I'm not really sure what it's all about... it's one of those questions I'm supposing will be answered when I die. Perhaps there are other dimensions, and there are thin areas in between, or doorways... or perhaps some people, and even some animals, simply aren't ready to let go of this life, this world. I don't know.

To me, it's just one of those unsolved mysteries... one of those unanswered questions. The little girl seems harmless, so I'm not afraid. We were thinking of setting up a motion detector camera system, to see if we could capture her moving about. We're putting in a security system, so we have the equipment. It would be interesting to see what happens.

Do I believe in spirits or ghosts? Absolutely. Do I believe their energy can still be felt here in this world? Yes. Why? I have no idea. Do they frighten me? Not so far. I haven't run into anything that's acted in an evil or aggressive manner as of yet.


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

I think it is a carryover from pagan times when everything was imbued with a spirit and those who seemed to speak to and for those spirits had a great deal of power over those who did not. A leader who did not have that ability was at the mercy of the priests and witches who did not have the responsibilities of the leader. Power without responsibility is dangerous for everyone. The early Hebrews probably figured it out and made it a bad thing to believe in such a power. Rules for their priests were stricter than for others. They could advise but could not command and their priesthood was hereditary so that made charlatans less common.

They figured out a lot of things that we think are silly like their dietary laws. But if you think about it without our modern methods of food storage and preparation they make a lot of sense. They knew bad things happened with shellfish, shrimp and lobster for example. We know those things spoil easily and fast especially without cold storage. Pork was forbidden because of trichinosis, although they didn't know that is what could cause insanity and death for those who ate it. Eating meat and dairy at the same time was wasteful in a world where famine was common and protein was scarce. And on and on. Now we think of them as superstitions but they were good rules at the time.


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

We've got one of the previous owners of my house still "living" (staying?) with us. She's made her presence known to us many times, and in fact my wife has even seen her, once walking through our bedroom, and once sitting in a rocking chair in the bedroom. The owners before us also saw her on a couple of occasions. It seems pretty obvious she means no one any harm, so we all get along pretty well. She even saved us from disaster one time about 10 months after we'd moved in. My wife had put a pan of water on the stove to boil, and then gone out to the garden to pick some string beans for supper. She lost track of time, and all of the sudden heard a racket coming from the kitchen. We've got a pot rack hanging in there, and "someone" was clanging the pots and pans together. When my wife came in, the pans were all still moving..... just as the last of the water was about to boil off. She thanked Evelyn and went about her business. True story.


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

On more than two occasions, friends have come to me in my dreams and said "Goodbye." I know this sounds bizarre, but in each instance, I learned that each had just died.


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

I can't tell you how comforting it is to know that many of you have shared similar stories.

And yes, those "visits" where your loved one is very real, you can remember every detail, and they appear healthy and young, and you have this feeling of contentment afterwards, I feel are visitations, not regular dreams.

Now, many will say it's our subconscious attempting to soothe ourselves, but I don't believe it. It happens not when I ask for it or want it, but out of nowhere, and in retrospect the timing seems perfect.

I consider them gifts.

Bill, I love the story of Evelyn.
I wonder how many entities we coexist with each day.

I'm not afraid of any of these things, either.
Actually, I'm not afraid of anything except becoming incapacitated and dependent on someone else.


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

Isn't the whole Bible about such things that defy reason? It would be strange indeed to believe in the Bible but not ghosts and spirits. I suspect any Christian who says ghosts etc don't exist want you to believe that only there ones exist.

Walter de la Mare, an English poet who wrote some awesome stuff (see The Listener at link) once said that if you were to consider that every blade of grass you look at in the sunlight has an invisible dark side you would realise how little you know.

Here is a link that might be useful: The Listener


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

Woodnymph-- not bizarre at all. My father did the same thing 2 days after his funeral.


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

We've always considered things like instinct to be extremely important, as well... instinct tells us when something doesn't feel right, and we always listen to it. Like, that feeling in the pit of your stomach that's somehow connected to your brain, that says "no, don't go on this trip... cancel and wait for a better time."

My husband has had what he calls "awake dreams", where he will be awake, and he will have a feeling that's so strong, or see something in his mind's eye that seems so real... that he listens. We don't know if it's silly or not, but should we tempt fate? We'll never know... because we listen.

Most of you live in the city and suburbs, so you don't often get to see what nature does when it knows it doesn't have long for this world... but animals will often, when ill or elderly, go off somewhere, find the right spot, and dig their own "grave". They will dig a burrow or hole large enough to crawl into and curl up. There, they will use the last of their energy to cover themselves up as best they can... they will die, and then their earthly body will deteriorate, feeding the plants or earth in that spot. It's really an amazing thing.

Some people might call instinct an intuition, ESP, or second sight, a sensitivity, or by some other name... but I think there are times when we either encounter spirits, or have an intuition about something... and I think, since we humans only use a very small portion of our actual brain capacity, that it's all very real...

It makes for some interesting questions and thoughts about what comes next, if something comes next...


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

Some people might call instinct an intuition, ESP, or second sight, a sensitivity, or by some other name... but I think there are times when we either encounter spirits, or have an intuition about something... and I think, since we humans only use a very small portion of our actual brain capacity, that it's all very real...

It makes for some interesting questions and thoughts about what comes next, if something comes next...

*

Yes, it does cause one to consider the reasons that we have these instincts.

When training for certain law enforcement activities, an instructor noted that humans are the only animals that when presented with an instinct, override it by saying, "Nah, you're just being paranoid."


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

When my dog lets me know through certain signals that she doesn't like someone we meet, I always listen to her instincts. She's always spot on.

People can call it paranoia if they like, but that instinct, that intuition, and listening to it, has saved me on a few occasions.

If something doesn't "feel" right, chances are good it's not.


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

So are they sleeping, or are they in paradise, are they the characters they were or are they pure spirit.
Do profoundly disabled souls suddenly become enable character that never existed on the earthly realm.

Does history change heaven & hell Biblical scholars ones without axes to grind know that at different time there were different ideas.

Before the Babylonian defeat the people of Isreal were hard put to be monotheist & the dead went to rest no matter what kind of life they lived. No talk of heaven or hell Just Sheol (which evolves over time).
The term rephaim had multiple meanings but one was a reference to those characterless spirits that one were human & this evolves over time.

It comes back much much later as "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" to suggest individual characters


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

I have a question. I know I have read a couple of posts in the past that said, when you die, that's it. Your done, there is nothing after that. How can one believe in ghosts or spirits if this is all there is?


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

I distinctly remember reading the same thing, Mrskjun and wondered how one could believe once there someone's body dies, there was nothing left, not even a soul, life energy, spirit or whatever you want to call it. If that is true, how can spirits, ghosts or mediums exist?

I also find it interesting that people who believe only in provable things believe in ghosts and mediums. For example the ones who say there is no God because we can't scientifically prove that he exists believe in ghosts but they can't scientifically prove they exist either.


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

I think a lot of folks here have stated that they simply aren't sure, and that NOT having all those answers doesn't bother them. That's what I've stated, anyway.

While I do not believe in the bible theories of a heaven or hell or purgatory, as the religious are wont to do, I do think that while our bodies are no longer needed beyond this life, and they do decay to feed the ecological cycle on this planet, our energy, consciousness, or who we are inside, goes on... I simply have no idea where or what or how or why... and I'm not losing sleep over those answers now.

I'll find out when it's my time. And that, as they say, is that.

I don't think we can rule out any possibilities, nor can we make any assumptions. We simply don't know.

No one has as yet died, remained dead for any real length of time, and then come back, without their earthly body, to tell the rest of us what it's all about.

So, all we really have are theories... or stories. Myself, I'm more apt to think about the infinite possibilities than to buy into one story that was written by mankind, passed down, translated, rewritten, parts removed, etc...

From the get go, the bible's interpretation of life's beginnings are, to me, a genetic impossibility. Based on what we know now about DNA and genetics, it does not make any sense. Without a wider genetic base or an outcross or DNA changes somewhere along the way, we would have died out as a species simply from being so inbred.

So... as it stands right now, I do not know, and not knowing does not bother me. Someday, when I die... when my earthly body fails and ceases to live, and the energy it contains is released, I'll find out.

The reason it doesn't bother me not to know is that everyone dies. Everyone. No one escapes death. Therefore, why should I be afraid?


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

Jodik mentioned the Holy Ghost cum Holy Spirit... third Person of the Trinity; the Father being attributed with omnipotence, the Son with wisdom and the works of wisdom, the Spirit with the operations of grace.

Word meanings are always evolving. Back in the days of King James and Shakespeare, ghost meant the living essense of a person. "Breath" or "soul" were often used as synonyms of "ghost". Spirit normally meant the essense of the departed or a demonic or paranormal apparition. Over time it became more usual to say "ghost" when speaking of a vision of a dead person.

I tend to be a non believer leaning toward holding that heaven and hell are what we make of our life in the here and now. Strange, I suppose, with my background - but most things religious rethought and reevaluated over time yet I'm still curious about the Congregation of the Cause of Saints. And sort of understand how people want things to be true and proven true - why else would so much energy be expended on artifacts like the Shroud of Turin, for example?

Stories abound about the "pennies from heaven" and bolt out of the blue thoughts like where is the property tax bill - lo and behold, go to the mail box and there's the bill. Chalk it up to coincidence.

For those who believe, who really knows... "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

"have a question. I know I have read a couple of posts in the past that said, when you die, that's it. Your done, there is nothing after that. How can one believe in ghosts or spirits if this is all there is?"

I Don't recall specifically who said that or even if anyone said it. I can only suggest that those who believe that there is absolutely nothing after death probably don't believe in spirits either.


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

Thanks, Bill, for affirming. I believe very much in my dreams, as often they seem to be warning me of something I ought to know, but have missed. They also enable me to make meaningful connections with events from my past that I'd not previously understood.

I also believe in listening to our instincts, our own inner voice. It took me almost a lifetime to learn to pay attention to this.

I agree with 2 things Jodi wrote: animals are incredibly good at picking out who can be trusted with them and who cannot. With regard to an animal who knows it is soon to die: my first Samoyed was in decline at age 14. One sunny day in March, he went off into the farthrest corner of our yard, lay down, and peacefully passed into a final sleep.He had dug a sort of hollow in which he rested.

I see no contradiction with various beliefs re what(if anything) is beyond the grave. Not one among us has died and come back to speak of what happens (if anything). Because we simply do not know, we keep our minds open to infinite possibilities.


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

Right?
Now the some have handled that this way if life is identified as all the occurrences that happen between fertilization & decay & how the MIND (does that equal self) experiences this then yes there is nothing afterwards as it was a time bound subjective event.
Some philosophies consider the mind intrinsically connected with the soul ok I have a mind set in my prime of life that is disturbed by illness & that mind set radically changes as a result of head trauma, dementia, long term alcohol use at some point I and the mind as an identification fail here.
Some people regard themselves purely physical thus the laws of physics would apply to them.

Our energy is generated by chemical reactions within the "meat". When the chemical reactions stop, the generation of electrical impulses stop. And that is what death is.

Since our consciousness is generated within the brain by the electrical firing of neurons, when the neurons stop firing, the consciousness is also extinguished.
Physics can't prove or disprove of this nature. Science does not deal with the "supernatural", only that which can be observed and measured. (that's what makes it science)

Since I know adding certain chemicals to this process can alter my mind/thinking/reactions PERSONALITY I am lost to the notion of (the continuations of self)
I indicated that certain traditions among the Hindu's described the inner dweller putting on and casting of bodies & lifetimes the way someone would clothes & being eternally unaffected by the experiences of those lives because at it's core it is full aware of timelessness & not tricked by the appearances of impermanence of hot & cold, fortune & misfortune life & death or separation from an eternal ultimate reality.
The human mind/self gets caught up in time, whereas eternity is always now. One spiritual tradition suggests that the nearest approximation that we can even begin to graps is by being here now (opps you had to think about that which places you in the field of cognitive time) That's why a lot of them meditate.
temporal & corporal reality is experiential,

I attend 12 step meetings we have an expression called a Spiritual experience (there is a foot note) it says that we means a "personality change sufficient enough to bring about recovery" then goes on to say that some of us call this god consciousness. Now apparently I have had that God consciousness for 34 years yet acknowledge no deity I try to operate in the present as much as possible, yet I like history (no conflict) and sometimes my psychological defenses predict a a future it cannot know if it does this enough I have anxiety or a host of other disorders if it does it correctly it gets me out of the way of a moving car.
(here I may say thank god & that would be cultural)
I mourn when someone passes & have fantasies that have been hardwired before I even knew what death was & I went to my first wake about 5 or 6.
Who will take care of my little kitty out in the rain (sad for sure but grounded in my need to care for it/her, while EDDS goes to his need to be loved by it/her how funny & loving she was.) We have very different personalities in this regard.
A study of The Kaballa (could drive you crazy) or introduce you to the notions of
No Thing or nothingness where the thingness of this world is set aside (experience, discernment of this & that here & now yesterday & tomorrow) This is to be in the presence of what is (possibly) the I am What Am (awful translation for modernists without a grounding in the esoteric nature of Hebrew spirituality as focused through the lens of the Kaballa) whne you can stop thing which is the lowestform of being in that tradition & can transcend or permit the gift of transcendence beyond thought & common occourence you start to approach the level of No Thingness of Ein Sof
or a deity that has not yet even manifested itself as spiritual or has not yet begun an evolution into the terms that describe that which is ineffable.

The Net of Indra in Hindu religion describes everything as seeming cause & affect & reality refers to itself with the metaphor of and endless net of perfect jewels which each reflect each other perfectly giving the appearances of solidness & time & events.

Who will take care of my kitty out in the rain is based on the emotive the connection this "I" had with this creature twice yesterday I thought I heard her.
I am human there are hundreds of thousands of years of emotional reactions passed on to me by people I never cared for or knew, traditions, fears, beliefs. I heard a nephew at a party repeat a phrase of his great-great grandfather about death & the famine in Ireland my mother & I caught it the rest of the family claim they never heard the expression before but it's in their as part of all their make ups.
So some final words an acquaintance who died in California told those crying at his bedside "hey guys it's only a word"
Another a friend a performer who curiously enough was a very spiritual person International Chrysis looked around on her last breaths & uttered "Far Effing out "
I have sat with numerous people & pets heading into "the light" I won't & cannot go to that experience now, nor do I deny their experience.
Brahman has come closest to anything I would even want to go near in terms of being presumptuous.
Some call it the ultimate Sirit or force that gives reality to human phenomena beyond understanding or condition.
Most westerners always seem to want to ver lay it with western philosophy or Judeo Christian understanding.
In this ultimate ground or reality it is impersonal for me and not a deity a thing to be worshiped, honored, implored, begged from sought out this "I" does not even fall within the potential of coming to terms with this no nothingness that potentially gives rise to differentiation. phenomena of this & that hot & cold good & evil, life & death is & is not.

That was convoluted enough in short I have also been through far too many phony seances & have done life regression therapies with (just what would I call them now)


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

Labrea, Condolences to you and EDD on your kitty.

Please know that I, too, find you a MOST interesting person! This forum just would not be the same without you and the always unpredictable perspective you bring to our discussions. I'll bet your mom had her hands full with you!!!


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

Chase: "I Don't specifically recall who said that or even if anyone said it. (referring to the OP title) I can only suggest that those who believe that there is absolutely nothing after death probably don't believe in spirits either."

So Chase, I take that to mean that you suggest (and if I understand you correctly, I agree) that just the opposite of what the OP suggests may be true?


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

Elvis you are mistaken.

My comments were not directed at the OP. Not sure why you choose to indicate they were. My comments were directed at the quote contained within my post, a statement made by Mrs.


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

Too bad!


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

Yes Nik you have said that before but unfortunately we had our hands filled with her she was a character & also a needful giver who could not accept anyone giving to her on many levels. That makes it hard to be intimate. My oldest brother swears she was just plain nuts! Ah well.
Intensely private she was very outgoing now there's a contradiction & a great defense against intimacy. She claims she knew when her mother died curiously I called my sister 15 minutes after she died and said "what was that" yet have no recollection of any feeling or presentiment or foreboding. My sister likes to bring this up every now & then I simply describe it as something like watching a flock of thousands birds moving in unison (clouds of starlings are amazing as the fold on each other) I allow that there is a frequency that we may have communicated on or been aware of that simply stopped. (I don't know)
What I can't stand are those charlatans like John Edward's who do cold readings. If the dead are indeed free then they are unbound by time & we are already with them and there is no need to tell Johnny where the lost bankbook is or any of the other minutia that seems to go on in these readings)
After 15 past life regression all I ever came up with is esoterica & fragments & whats so wrong with being here and now that I am seeking elsewhere ( I had faith I thought back then if I did have that faith that I claimed to have wasn't the certainty of be still & know that I am god enough) guess not.


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

I am here, in the now... and so this, to me, is what holds the most importance. I don't think it's so much the destination we should be worried about, but the journey. We can't know a destination... but we can make our journeys as good or bad, as happy or sad, as beautiful or ugly as we want them to be.

There have only been two deaths that bothered me beyond the norm... that of my Mom, who died too soon following her diagnosis. But due to a sign from nature, I knew in some way that it was going to be ok. Shortly before she passed on, we were having morning coffee together in her kitchen, as we did every morning while I stayed with her... and as we watched out the window, and this was completely out of season for this creature, one crane flew into view, turned and looked off to side, from whence another joined it... and the twain flew off together.

We just sat there looking at each other. It was not the time of year that cranes pair. To us, it meant that my Dad was waiting, and they would join each other shortly and continue their journey. Maybe is was silly, but it made us both feel better.

The second death that bothered me more than normal was the death of my American Bulldog, Minerva. She was the best companion/protector I'd ever had. She was more than a dog. She was a member of our family. She slept with us every night, went everywhere with me, and was my constant companion for about 10 years. She developed cancer that spread too fast, and proved to be inoperable. She knew it was her time, and I knew the best thing I could do for her was to put her at peace. So we did.

I still miss those two beings more than anyone I've ever lost. But I know that the best thing for both was an end to suffering. And for that, I'm grateful it was short... the suffering.

The only real knowledge we have is how the loss of others affects US. They say that funerals are for the living, and that's so true. I don't like them, though... I prefer to remember persons and pets as they were when alive and vibrant.

I buried my Minerva alone, in a beautiful grotto, under a shady tree. I dug the grave myself, deep and wide, clearing space around large roots. I wrapped her in a quilt my Mom had made for me, and I said good bye. I don't think anything has ever hurt me quite as deeply... except for the loss of my parents, but that's a different hurt. She's been gone for 7 years, and I still miss her.

But, life goes on for the living, and we continue our journeys.

I think the thing that makes me think there must be something more, something beyond, is when I think of why I am me... like, why am I in this body, and not in a different one? Why am I who I am? I think maybe the energy that is me, added to the energy that is everyone else, must make up something greater... though I haven't a clue what that might be.

When it's time, I'll find out.


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

What I can't stand are those charlatans like John Edward's who do cold readings.

I'm sorry, but John Edwards is no charlatan. He came to Portland about 3 years ago, and my wife and I went to see him, and I got read. There were things MY WIFE didn't know about me that came out from my father and grandfather. He's most definitely the real deal.


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

"I can only suggest that those who believe that there is absolutely nothing after death probably don't believe in spirits either."

True for me. I believe in neither god nor ghosts. :-)


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

That's the way I read it too, CP :-)


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

Ok Bill I'm glad you had your experience & I'm sure he gave you an experience.
The important message was did he give you a message from your father that confirmed your faith did what came through affirm & profess that Jesus is the Christ & Lord Savior. I would think that for Christians that every time, that would be the message being relayed from the other side but it never is & never has been by this guy.
For the dead professing that good news would be like winning the $500 million lottery. Seriously!
Ever heard a spirit speaking the gospel or any other great religious truth through a medium. Accept for Ramtha or Abraham Hicks & all those other channeled business entities of the new age!
I know he is your Lord & Savior (not mine) you would think that someone passing over would be so wowed by that event it would be the first thing that they would want to convey.

I would also appreciate a really really cold reader who just said what they had to say without asking for confirmation.

His messages are of a variety & a true psychic would just come out & say what they have to say without fanfare or hesitation...I have yet to meet one like that.
Trust me when I tell you I really have met a lot of folks in this field some who earn quite a good a living at readings.
I have been a fan of James Randi since I was a little boy when he was a magician, He has a $1 Million offer to anyone who will submit to controlled scientific experiments.
There haven't been any takers for that $1 million.


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

I've heard of "the Amazing Randi", and why no one's gone for the mil., I don't know. But as for my reading, the things John came up with were completely out of the blue, and he had no prompting from "feeler questions". The odds of him knowing this stuff, even if he'd had a chance to investigate me-- he'd have a better chance of hitting Lotto.


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RE: Why do Christians say ghosts/mediums do not exist?

Yep but my comment still stands about the original topic faith Christianity fortune tellers, ghosts! (I know you had a ghost experience I read it on here before)
If a medium talks to the dead the medium shouldn't be following the current fashion of every other mediums.
There have been various periods in history when mediums contacted the dead either by seance card reading, trance, holding an object that belonged to the deceased.
A familiar spirit brings dead spirit to the medium. "Almost no one does familiars today too spooky, I've yet to have a medium speak in the language of the deceased & I've yet to have a medium say the deceased is signing for the deaf. Though I was present when 1 was caught out.
Again I've yet to meet a medium psychic have a spirit talk of being in the presence of GOD they all shy away from that.
2 of my friends screwed over a medium once who claimed to be speaking to her dead sister. "Has she met her patron Saint yet? My sister always claimed if she ever came back she would tell me all about her patron saint." The medium was totally tongue tied. Blathers about the message is
not clear.

There's been a number of seances at the White House!

The Fox sisters start the US fascination with hocus pocus table tapping & rapping & levitation's. Then Come madame Blavatsky & a whole flock of hucksters.


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