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Not what I call progress

Posted by jillinnj (My Page) on
Fri, Apr 19, 13 at 12:02

Officials of the Boy Scouts of America said Friday that they propose ending their ban on openly gay scouts but continuing to bar gay adults from serving as leaders. The decision, which follows years of heated controversy within the organization and growing outside criticism, must be approved by the roughly 1,400 voting members of the Scouts’ National Council at a meeting in Texas the week of May 20.

This doesn't make sense to me. Either you discriminate against gays or you don't. This will not change my opinion of the Boy Scouts. An organization I would never allow my son to join.

Here is a link that might be useful: Source


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Not what I call progress

I would agree... you're either discriminating, or you're not. They are discriminating, and are on my list of organizations not to have anything to do with.


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  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Fri, Apr 19, 13 at 12:32

This is because of the ignorant mindset that continues to link homosexuality with pedophile .... IMO


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What Ohiomom said. There remains in pockets of our culture the bizarre but deeply-rooted belief in the mythos of gay men "recruiting" younger boys into homosexuality. Bah.


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Yes, I'm sure you're correct OM and CP. The ignorance and close-mindedness of these people always astonishes me.


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I consider it progress.

It's the whole tent and camping thing, which is actually a small part of Boy Scouts. A lot of parents don't want their 12 year old son sharing a tent with a gay man anymore than they want their 12 year old daughter sharing a tent with a straight man. Logically, it's the same thing.

Personally, I think if there were always a two-adult rule, it wouldn't be such an issue.


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You support Boy Scouts with your federal tax dollars.


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The Boy Scouts have all sorts of sweetheart deals with federal, state and local government to use public facilities in ways no one else can. As a private organization, if they want to be narrow minded and discriminatory they can. But they should immediately lose all sweetheart deals like use of camp grounds and parks.


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IMO anyone who works with kids should be screened: youth leaders, child caregivers, teachers, etc., not to ascertain their sexual preference(s), to be sure; but rather to protect the children from predators of any stripe. There are dangerous people out there, as we've seen all too often.


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Ho Humm and the beat goes on!


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bird_lover6 wrote,

It's the whole tent and camping thing, which is actually a small part of Boy Scouts. A lot of parents don't want their 12 year old son sharing a tent with a gay man anymore than they want their 12 year old daughter sharing a tent with a straight man.

Sure, I agree a lot of parents are bigots.

Logically, it's the same thing.

Same as having their 12-year-old son sharing a tent with a straight woman.

Right?


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In this, the age of instant information, ignorance should not be so prevalent. But then, neither should discrimination.


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elvis wrote,

IMO anyone who works with kids should be screened: youth leaders, child caregivers, teachers, etc., not to ascertain their sexual preference(s), to be sure; but rather to protect the children from predators of any stripe. There are dangerous people out there, as we've seen all too often.

How does this pertain to the Boy Scouts' position on gay troop leaders?


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"How does this pertain to the Boy Scouts' position on gay troop leaders?"

Huh? I don't see how I could have said it more plainly. Your question is a non-question.

"IMO anyone who works with kids should be screened..."

Dissect it if you like; sort of like what you did to BL's quite innocent post. You're looking for something that isn't there. Not even a half decent try.


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I understood your post, Elvis.

I love our local pack and my son and family have gotten a tremendous amount out of it. The hiking, nature conservation, and giving back are our fave parts.

I hope the national level gets with the program.


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RE: Not what I call progress

elvis wrote,

"How does this pertain to the Boy Scouts' position on gay troop leaders?"

Huh? I don't see how I could have said it more plainly. Your question is a non-question.

"IMO anyone who works with kids should be screened..."

You didn't say anything at all about the topic of barring gay troop leaders. In fact you explicitly qualified your call for screening as not including sexual preference.

So, how does your post pertain to the topic of the Boy Scouts barring gay troop leaders? Do you agree with their position?


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"So, how does your post pertain to the topic of the Boy Scouts barring gay troop leaders? Do you agree with their position?"

Clearly your ability to read the English language is good. I am unwilling to assist you with your apparent lack of comprehension skills.

Where's that fishing boat picture David posted the other day?

Guess you have your own criterion for "anyone". Clue: it's an all inclusive word.


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It is quite simple. The reason the Boy Scots are so homophobic is exactly the same reason the Catholic Church has traditionally been--rampant pedophila among its ranks. There is no known cause of it, nor a cure.


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"...The reason the Boy Scots are so homophobic is exactly the same reason the Catholic Catholic Church has traditionally been--rampant pedophila among its ranks."

...but you do agree that it is unjust to stereotype groups of people, surely.


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Regarding sexual stereotypes...

Heterosexual men tend to be at tracked to women.
Homosexual men tend to be attracted to men.
Pedophiles tend to be attracted to prepubescent boys or girls.
Hebephiles tend to be attracted to children in early puberty.

No significant percentage of homosexual men are getting involved with Boy Scouts for sex, but there will be some allure to those who are sexually drawn to younger people. I am sure most Catholic priests and Scout leaders have not been abusing kids, but both have, unfortunately, been attracting a disproportionate number of individuals interested in physical reations with kids.


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Unfortunate, to be sure.


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"
...but you do agree that it is unjust to stereotype groups of people, surely.

Yes, yes it is.

•Posted by elvis 4a (My Page) on
Sat, Apr 20, 13 at 12:35

I've always felt that is an Interesting word, "ululate". I've never had much occasion to use the word, though, never having spent much time describing the cries Native Americans apparently uttered when attacking the wagon trains or Zulus cried when attacking the British fort, or middle easterners celebrating an event. A look at the history of the word and the particular culture of the peoples who "ululate" is ...revealing.


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Right? Not much gets by you, Epi. I was beginning to wonder if people thought "ululate" was not a real word, or they just SOB that blessedly short post.. A good example; I really find stereotyping distasteful, maybe even more so when it is so blatantly "subtle."


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elvis wrote,

"So, how does your post pertain to the topic of the Boy Scouts barring gay troop leaders? Do you agree with their position?"

Clearly your ability to read the English language is good. I am unwilling to assist you with your apparent lack of comprehension skills.

Why are you afraid to give your opinion on the topic of this thread?

Guess you have your own criterion for "anyone". Clue: it's an all inclusive word.

Thanks. So what is your position on the Boy Scouts barring of troop leaders because they are gay? Do you agree or disagree with their stance?

This post was edited by Factotem on Sun, Apr 21, 13 at 23:36


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Who cares! The hounding if trivial crap and semantics that goes on here makes this board tedious.


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maggie2094 wrote,

Who cares! The hounding [of] trivial crap and semantics that goes on here makes this board tedious.

I don't know to what you are referring. I am asking for elvis's opinion on the topic of the thread.


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Let's turn this around, since it's your idea to bare the soul.

Now if surveillance extended to all private homes, and you could replay my phone conversation with DLS this a.m., you would have your voyeuristic thrill of the day; but alas for you.

I think that your habit of doing this, while continuing your "robot" façade is creepy. It seems as though you intend to inflict discomfiture which counter-productively (for you) only results in a mild annoyance. Buzz; swat.

So: fess up. In your own words. Something not programmed.


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Whats the sub rosa topic here?


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There is none. What you see is what you get Labrea.


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Elvis, what's your position on the Scouts refusing to admit gay men as Scout leaders?


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Not so sub nor so rosy, Joe.

I find all these paramilitary, homosocial organizations rather distasteful; lots of other ways for folks to learn camping/building/homemaking skills without the weird gender role indoctrination.


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"There is none. What you see is what you get Labrea."

Hilarious!


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Love it when those decrying discrimination (rightly so here) so easily then spew their own hatred and judgement on something else they have no knowledge of...

Our own pack has a gay leader, he also teaches religion. I only know because he is friends with my niece. We have cooked, made pottery, gone food shopping to learn about ingredients, made green cleaning solutions, countless community clean ups, visit the nursing hone on holidays, collect and volunteer for the animal shelter and the list goes on and it is not just the boy but siblings and the entire family that participate. It is local and community based. Do people realize moms are very involved as den mothers and leaders. In fact our troop leader is a woman now.

I take this is a move forward and expect it will keep moving forward.

You don't have to join or donate your time to your community, don't judge others that do because you have no doubt benefited from our efforts.


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Whne do gay children (whats a gay child?) stop becoming trust worthy/acceptable (perhaps I'm missing something here fill in the blank)?
It strikes me as improbable that scouting could be this rewarding to have to put up with this heaping pile of MORAL guano!


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Not much gets by you

It's difficult to not see glaring hypocrisy.


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  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Sun, Apr 21, 13 at 11:25

Yes and no. It won't be long, 5 years maybe, before the gay scouts, especially eagle scouts, want to become scout leaders. Then the BSA will have to change, though of course it will be a humiliating fight, which the BSA neanderthal leadership will lose.

Scouting, at least Cub Scouting, is rewarding for the little guys, my grandson really enjoys it. Sure, we can do the same stuff, as a family, and we do, but for the boys, it's much more fun to do stuff with a bunch of boys their own age. Socializing is as much fun as finding tadpoles. Pinewood Derby isn't nearly as much fun when you are doing it alone.

Our dilemma now, is what to do with our granddaughter, who would much rather be a Cub Scout than a Brownie.


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"Our dilemma now, is what to do with our granddaughter, who would much rather be a Cub Scout than a Brownie. "

I don't blame her. I wonder why the USA rules haven't been changed yet. I'm surprised at that. Honestly, if my personal life involved someone who was affected by that rule, I might get involved in working to change that. Maybe; sounds like work ;)

My boy was pretty shy at that age, though. It would have been interesting to see how having girls in the den affected the overall group dynamics. Might have been helpful.


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Personally, I don't need anything that a discriminatory organization has to offer.


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Mom, my daughter is the same as your granddaughter. Our Girl Scout troop runs their own pinewood derby now and does other things that might be considered "boy" just like the cubs are doing "girl" things. So much depends on your local troop but if your family gets involved then you can have input, too.

Labrea, it would kill me to think I'm hurting people by participating. I'm sorry. Our pack has been disbanded since Sandy and don't think we will be continuing at this point since my son has moved on and is busy with other things.


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elvis wrote,

Let's turn this around, since it's your idea to bare the soul.

You are confused. I asked for your view on the topic of this thread -- the barring of gay Boy Scout troop leaders. Giving your view on a topic -- as many others have done in this thread -- is not "baring the soul." It's the main activity that occurs on discussion boards like this one. Did you consider it baring your soul to opine that candidates for troop leader should be screened to weed out predators? If not, why would it be baring your soul to give your view on the Boy Scouts' barring of gay troop leaders -- the very subject of this thread?

Now if surveillance extended to all private homes, and you could replay my phone conversation with DLS this a.m., you would have your voyeuristic thrill of the day; but alas for you.

What are you talking about?

I think that your habit of doing this, while continuing your "robot" façade is creepy.

My habit of asking for people's views on the subject of a thread after they post in the thread? You have an astonishingly inclusive criterion for what you consider "creepy".

It seems as though you intend to inflict discomfiture which counter-productively (for you) only results in a mild annoyance. Buzz; swat.

So you believe that when someone requests your view on the subject of a thread in which you have posted, the intention is to "inflict discomfiture"? Why are you so uncomfortable giving your view on the subject of this thread? Several other people have given their views and no one else has expressed discomfort. It's a really simple question: what's your view on the Scouts' policy barring gay troop leaders? Why does posing that question to you "inflict discomfiture"? Why do you feel that you would have to "bare your soul" to answer it?

So: fess up. In your own words. Something not programmed.

I don't understand your question. To what are you asking me to confess?

Why do you continue to evade the central issue of this topic? Evasion is an indicator of fear of honest expression


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Is scouting really relevant anymore?


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Is it any less likely for a pedophile to pose as a homosexual vs a heterosexual so as to gain access to kids?

My uneducated guess is that it is a bit less likely, so therefore the smart thing for the Scouts to do is ban heterosexual leaders.


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Are any eunuchs available?


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Personally, I don't need anything that a discriminatory organization has to offer.

I agree with this statement.

Perhaps a local chapter of the organization is not discriminatory as some have said here. But, by belonging and paying $$ to the organization I would consider it condoning and supporting the discriminatory actions of the organization. Something I am not willing to do.

There are other ways to enjoy the same things the boy scouts can offer a child. Condoning discrimination is not what I would want to teach my child.


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It would be like hating what consumerism and greed are doing to this country, but shopping at Walmart... or... and no offense intended... being a tree hugging, PETA loving vegan, yet wearing shoes and clothing made from leather or suede, and driving a car with leather seats... or claiming to be a Christian, but letting prejudice and selfishness rule one's behavior.

Hypocritical, in a word.


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I have to say I've never met a vegan that wears or purchases anything made from leather.

And, not sure why the need for this:
being a tree hugging, PETA loving vegan

I don't understand the disdain for vegans. I know you enjoy meat. I know you enjoy or don't mind slaughtering animals. But, not everyone does. Maybe, I misread, and you didn't mean it with disdain, but that's how it came across to me.

I don't shop at Walmart. But I understand why some need to. Their prices are sometimes less expensive and it can be the difference between affording the food or other essential and not. I always say if you can afford to shop elsewhere, please do.


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I did say "no offense intended" before I wrote the things that I did.

I have nothing against anyone... unless they show abject hypocritical behavior, as I also did note.

There are plenty of people that try to sell the notion they are "saviors of the planet", but when it comes down to it, they aren't what they say they are.

Why does every little opinion given have to come down to an argument about semantics? I guess I just don't understand the worlds of others today...


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It's not about semantics. It's not the first time you've shown disdain for vegans. I just don't understand why. I understand the dislike of hypocritical behavior. I also dislike it. But, it sounds to me like you've generalized perhaps someone you've known who claimed to be vegan to all vegans. Like I said, I've never met a vegan that purchases or wears anything that came from an animal.

If you're not interested in other's opinions, then I suggest you just scroll on by. Not exactly sure why you're so defensive about anyone that questions anything you say.


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Being vegan is about not eating or using the products of animals. That is the strict definition. So, if someone is claiming to be "vegan" (and I believe that it would be in the huge minority) and they wear leather it would be a Hilton sister or Kardashian. No one who is a member of PETA would wear leather or fur either.


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Eunuchs, good idea, tob! Are you volunteering?


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A stud like me?


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Jodi - no offense intended - if I need a hypocrisy blood hound, is it ok if I call on you? (Liked your list by the way)


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elvis -

What's your view on the Scouts' policy barring gay troop leaders?


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Like a Stepford wife who got stuck...


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Why don't you just answer the question then? You must know what you think about the topic.


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elvis wrote,

Like a Stepford wife who got stuck...

Another evasion. People evade when they are fearful of expressing themselves honestly.

So, what's your view on the Scouts' policy barring gay troop leaders?


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"So, what's your view on the Scouts' policy barring gay troop leaders?"

Go back upthread and re-read my initial post on the subject, because at this point I'm not sure about your memory retention capabilities. It's obvious that you are very retentive in other all-too-common ways. This was my view when I posted it, and it is my view now.
If it hurts your brain to think that much, that's not my problem. If you have to ask the question repeatedly (as you have), you really are a caricature of a smart person.

This post was edited by elvis on Thu, Apr 25, 13 at 20:45


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elvis wrote,

"So, what's your view on the Scouts' policy barring gay troop leaders?"

Go back upthread and re-read my initial post on the subject, because at this point I'm not sure about your memory retention capabilities. It's obvious that you are very retentive in other all-too-common ways. This was my view when I posted it, and it is my view now.
If it hurts your brain to think that much, that's not my problem. If you have to ask the question repeatedly (as you have), you really are a caricature of a smart person.

Now, in addition to frantic evasion, you are attempting to further distract by launching embarrassingly childish insults. It seems, too, that you are completely unaware of how these attacks reflect on you, but I doubt I can enlighten you much in that regard.

Evading and employing insults are high-grade indicators of a large degree of fear of expressing oneself truthfully, and increasing desperation. This is puzzling; what do you have to fear from simply saying, "I think it's a shameful, discriminatory policy," or "I fully support the policy because boys should not be led by gay men because gay men might molest them," or whatever your view happens to be? What consequence concerns you so greatly that you won't simply state your position? You can't claim that it's too much work -- you wrote about a hundred words of evasion and insult, rather than the dozen that would simply address the question directly.

Note that your initial post in this thread was not actually "on the subject" at all. The subject is the Boy Scouts' policy banning troop leaders because they are gay. Your post never offered your view on that policy; instead, you said that anyone who works with kids should be screened to protect the kids from predators. That has nothing to do with the Scouts' policy that is the subject of this thread -- someone who agrees with the policy could share your view on screening, and someone who opposes the policy could also share your view on screening. For reference, here is your post in its entirety:

"IMO anyone who works with kids should be screened: youth leaders, child caregivers, teachers, etc., not to ascertain their sexual preference(s), to be sure; but rather to protect the children from predators of any stripe. There are dangerous people out there, as we've seen all too often."

Notice there is no reference whatsoever to the policy barring gay troop leaders, so you did not state your position on that policy. So, when you now claim, "This was my view when I posted it, and it is my view now," you cannot be referring to your view on the Scouts' policy, as you never stated it. Certainly, we know that you believe people who work with kids should be screened to weed out predators, but that's not the policy on which your view is being solicited, and on which you claim to have already given your view, but have not.

So, what is your view on the Boy Scouts' policy barring gay Troop Leaders?


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elvis -

What's your view on the Scouts' policy barring gay troop leaders?

A concise, direct answer will suffice.


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