Return to the Hot Topics Forum | Post a Follow-Up

 o
Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

Posted by dublinbay z6 KS (My Page) on
Sun, Apr 13, 14 at 17:50

Surprising news out of Kansas City (Overland Park). The guy went to a Jewish center and asked several people whether they were Jewish. When they said yes, he shot them. Then he went to a senior center of some kind and shot a Jewish woman. At some point (I think it was after the last shooting when he was arrested), he was muttering something about "Heil Hitler."

I find it so hard to believe that devotees of Hitler still abound in our country today. I know we had some survivalist groups in the Ozarks (not too far away), some of which posted swastikas and such emblems around their hide-aways. Skinheads were puzzling enough--why American young men were turning to Hitler/Nazis for their inspriration, but an elderly man shooting up senior citizen because of their Jewish heritage--while invoking Hitler's name??????

Do you hear stories like this in your neighborhoods/regions? I have to wonder sometimes how common such digusting beliefs are in America--and, most importantly, WHY?????.

Kate


Follow-Up Postings:

 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

I can’t begin to answer your question, Kate. You’ve made me make some speculations about “why” but I don’t know to make sense of them. Is this an old German guy who was part of the Fascist regime? Is this an old guy whose life has turned so sour that he is looking for a scapegoat? Is he a Holocaust denier who wants to play a part in wiping out those who know it was real?
This has not happened in my neighborhood, but I have read enough Holocaust, war, rape literature to know that instances like this happen. Explanation? No. Another instance of horror.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

"The guy went to a Jewish center and asked several people whether they were Jewish. When they said yes, he shot them. Then he went to a senior center of some kind and shot a Jewish woman."

" I have to wonder sometimes how common such digusting beliefs are in America--and, most importantly, WHY?????.

Kate"

Maybe the answer is in Momj47's recent thread about religion, I wonder if this guy also feels that the plight of some in this world would be better off without people who have a religion.

www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Jew‎

Merriam‑Webster

"someone whose religion is Judaism, who is descended from Jewish people, or who participates in the culture surrounding Judaism ..."


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

I used to work in a bank in Washington,D.C. Across the street was the headquarters for the American Nazi Party. For the most part, the people who are associated with that group appear to be losers looking for something that will boost their self image. They gave me the creeps, especially since so many looked normal. They enjoy shouting down those who didn't agree with them.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

  • Posted by rosie Southeast 7A/B (My Page) on
    Sun, Apr 13, 14 at 18:27

Don't have an answer either, Kate. DH is the only Jew in our neighborhood, as demonstrated by two very nice Southern Baptists sincerely mentioning in charming wonder, on separate occasions to me personally, that they've never actually met a Jew. (This was while pricking out seedlings at the arboretum or some such thing, and no, the conversation seemed too casually pleasant to interrupt by taking it deeper and explaining they had.)

I have frequently wondered at the peculiar recent adoption of the Christian Right of Israel and the Jews so many of them previously feared, and some even loathed, and I've been waiting for the inevitable post unwilling-embrace boomerang. So far I've only noticed a few sects discovering that they themselves are the Real Jews, rather than the...real Jews, but... ??

Elvis, my take is that religion can be a fine thing in the hands of fine people, but that some people can't be trusted with it and the world would be far, far better off if churches set basic standards for those they admitted to their congregations. And, in plenty of cases, of course, for the church itself.

This post was edited by rosie on Sun, Apr 13, 14 at 18:32


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Sun, Apr 13, 14 at 18:33

It's not actually clear who he shot, according to the article in the Kansas City paper

Two of the victims are Methodist, a father and daughter.

Maybe the answer is in Momj47's recent thread about religion, I wonder if this guy also feels that the plight of some in this world would be better off without people who have a religion.

Oh please, what a stupid statement. No one believes that. Am I going to be your next target?

Here is a link that might be useful: Link


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

I know that the embracing of Jews and Israel has a long history in Fundy Christianity-at least 30 years that I know of. This is in a more wana-be sense than any real identification with Jews. The murder of Jews as a sanctioned act of religious oppression goes back centuries. I don't understand the scapegoating of Jews but there it is. There was a case in Seattle of some older guy shooting up a Jewish community center. Horrible.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Sun, Apr 13, 14 at 18:45

It's such a tragedy.

Makes you wonder if the man arrested was in church this morning. I'm sure that horrible anti-semitic scapegoating is still preached in some churches.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

Kate this is nothing new and rears its head even more around the holidays. Tomorrow night begins Passover and along with the matzoh comes the increased police presence in front of synagogues across the greater Metro NY area. It is the same in L.A., SF and other areas as well.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

Elvis said, "I wonder if this guy also feels that the plight of some in this world would be better off without people who have a religion.”

Not clear whether you mean that he world would be better off without people who embrace some religion or whether the world would be better off without people who embrace a particular religion, as in Judaism. Please clarify.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

Epi, I was not aware of the "police presence" in front of synagogues in major cities around the holidays. Those kinds of issues don't come up much in the smaller town I live in.

There are fundamentalist Christians (in particular) who genuinely support Israel and the Jews, but others from that same group who support them only because they are supposedly part of the prophecies about the Rapture or the Apocalyptic End of Times--when Christ will return and will NOT save Israel or the Jews--so I'm not sure they are really interested in Israel or the Jews in and of themselves.

I also know that some of those survivalist types in the Ozarks with their swastikas also claim to be Christians of some sort.

I've more than once heard "good Christians" say that Jews and Christians worship the same God--forgetting that the Christian "God" is a triune God including Jesus the Messiah as part of the triple godhead. No way do Jews worship that "God." Those "good Christians" were not aware that Jews do not accept Jesus as the Messiah.

You do have to wonder at times what some people do believe in--they sometimes know so little about their own religion and just about nothing about anyone else's.

How all this applies to the tragedy in Kansas City, I don't know yet. I did hear that the killer was an elderly white guy with a beard. (I have no idea why we were informed he had a beard.)

Kate


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

Kate, most people don't notice the police presence because it doesn't affect them but it has been this way since I was a little girl and remains so. Some get temporary concrete barricades and others just have a car or two sitting in front.

As for many of the Christian fundies that support Israel, they do so for many different reasons but not necessarily because they support the religion or the people They do so mainly because they see the Jews as the caretakers of the land until the Rapture. .

Funny (not ha ha) how many people espouse things they know little of.

I don't understand why it was necessary to post a definition of Jew. Do people not know? We have discussed the subject many times over the years and never was a definition necessary.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

  • Posted by rosie Southeast 7A/B (My Page) on
    Sun, Apr 13, 14 at 19:50

"You do have to wonder at times what some people do believe in--they sometimes know so little about their own religion and just about nothing about anyone else's."

SO true. Many Christian leaders see this as a severe problem.

As someone who grew up in Christian-dominated society, imagine my surprise when, a newly married kid newly arrived in West Hollywood, I called the local synagogue to see about classes in Judaism (for learning, not conversion) and was quoted tuition rates and lengthy class schedules. They take it very seriously.

Unlike Christianity and Islam, Judaism is not a proselytizing religion. It doesn't offer feelie-goodie little meetings to persuade people into the "fold" before they get away, much less send missionaries knocking on doors, and it does put a far stronger emphasis on its adherents' knowledge of Judaism than by far most Christian churches do of Christian doctrine.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

"Not clear whether you mean that he world would be better off without people who embrace some religion or whether the world would be better off without people who embrace a particular religion, as in Judaism. Please clarify."

I'm happy to clarify what I posted, but that just means repeating it. I will clarify that it's not clear what this question actually is: "he world" could be "he would" or "the world"; you asked either whether "the world (sic) would be better off without people who embrace some religion" or whether he would (sic) be better off without people who embrace some religion."

My answer: As to the first possible question, IMO no. As to the second possible question, I doubt it, but I don't know; you would have to ask him how he feels about that.

You also asked me "whether the world would be better off without people who embrace a particular religion, as in Judaism."

My answer: IMO, no it would not.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

Oh please Storm Front is alive & well. in the US


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

Rosie, it wouldn't make sense for Jews to proselytize since you are a Jew if your mother was a Jew, and she is a Jew if her mother was a Jew, etc etc. no sense in trying to "convert" for something that's inherited. I believe they permit conversion, but I've been told it's a proxies that's long and difficult.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

And people wonder why we want to remove ourselves from the whole idea of society...


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

There are various denominations with various beliefs. There is an exception to the rule that the mother must be Jewish for the children to be recognized as Jewish in the Reform Movement.

Minors can be converted. In families with a non-Jewish mother and a Jewish father, the child is considered Jewish by the Reform movement if the child is brought up engaging in public acts of identification with Judaism. Orthodox and Conservative Judaism, however, do not regard such a child as legally Jewish. Parents of such children can if they wish have their children converted in infancy because the process is quite simple. While some would consider this a surrender to pressure especially from the Orthodox and refuse to do it, others see it as a way to get recognition of the child's Jewishness by additional segments of the Jewish people. Reform rabbis often simply have a naming ceremony. Orthodox and Conservative rabbis require the mikveh for a female minor and a circumcision and mikveh for a male minor.

Judaism isn't a one size fits all.

but I've been told it's a proxies that's long and difficult
.

Conversion varies with Reform Judaism, Orthodox, etc. and is also approached differently depending on the Rabbis but it is meant to be taken seriously.

I have friends who went through conversions through Reform and Conservative Rabbis. Like any lesson some found it easier than others. Orthodox conversions are the most intense.

Here is a link that might be useful: Conversion basics

This post was edited by epiphyticlvr on Sun, Apr 13, 14 at 20:57


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

I should have known better than to ask you a question, elvis--it was entirely clear what I meant despite leaving a “t" out of “the.” Hardly worth a whole paragraph of “correction."


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Mon, Apr 14, 14 at 7:02

From the shooter's own mouth ... (he is well known to the authorities)

"“White men have become the biggest cowards to ever walk the earth. The world has never witnessed such yellow cowards. We’ve set back and allowed the Jews to take over our government, banks, and our media. We’ve allowed tens of millions of foreign mud-people to invade our country, steal our jobs, and our women and destroy our children’s future. America is no longer ours. America belongs to the Jews who rule it, and the mud-people who multiply in it. The undeniable proof is that at davidduke.com. It’s time for white men to unite, join together and take our country back. This is Glenn Miller and I approve this message.”

Here is a link that might be useful: source of course


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

  • Posted by rosie Southeast 7A/B (My Page) on
    Mon, Apr 14, 14 at 7:15

Snap, snap. Snap, snap, snap. :)

Whether a religion proselytizes is of real significance because religions committed to their own spread are by nature and sometimes fanatic ideology aggressive and competitive. This aggressive spread has nothing to do with a religion maintaining within its original culture, like Judaism. Aggressive spreaders are the ones that cause those rivers of blood to flow, Christianity and Islam right at the forefront.

Like others, Judaism could have become a proselytizing religion if, for instance, it had decided God wanted it to take over the planet in his name. I mentioned that Judaism was not because I respect all religions that do not evolve into a bloody plague on humanity.

Would humanity be better off without religion? My guess is probably not all religion, but definitely we would be far better people and far safer, and no doubt far more advanced, without aggressive troublemakers like Christianity and Islam.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

"Would humanity be better off without religion? My guess is probably not all religion, but definitely we would be far better people and far safer, and no doubt far more advanced, without aggressive troublemakers like Christianity and Islam."

I'd imagine you'd get a different view in the Gaza Strip or the West Bank settlements.

This guy is really bad and wants to establish a nation with only "white" people.

Hay


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

Unfortunately, those beliefs are everywhere. And long before natzi idiots.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

Do you hear stories like this in your neighborhoods / regions?

About 15 years ago, a man shot up the [San Fernando] Valley Jewish Center. All who were shot survived, but he shot and killed Filipino mailman he shot afterwards. Shortly after Sept 11, a lone gun man shot and killed a number of people at the El Al counter at L.A. International.

If one is a white supremist, Los Angeles does not appear on any list of ideal places to live.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

Looks like he is/was with the KKK, and has been in trouble many times before for his actions.

Lovely

Here is a link that might be useful: Linky-linky


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

You are way off base.

Like rape has nothing to do with sex, this crime has nothing to do with religion.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

Thank you, Mom, for that link. That guy certainly did have a long career as a Klan organizer and white supremacist--even had gone to jail a couple times for his activities!

Kate


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

I don't understand why it was necessary to post a definition of Jew. Do people not know? We have discussed the subject many times over the years and never was a definition necessary.

I wondered the same thing. But, then after thinking about it, I realized that elvis probably would have to go look up Jew. I'm quite certain nobody else on this board would have to look that up.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

Actually he killed one Jew and two Methodists. Not sure how that should be viewed.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

Actually i think it was one Catholic and two Methodists.......but what does it really matter?

He thought he was killing Jews. He is a hateful, evil man...and that's all there is to that.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

According to the news sources, there's enough evidence to bring in the hate crime aspect (seemed obvious to me with his rantings) - which could put the death penalty on the table if convicted.

I didn't go back to mom's link, but the last sentence there indicated no evidence AT THAT POINT. Things have a way of rapidly changing from moment to moment.

Rest in peace to the dead who surely did not die that way.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

The irony of him killing 2 methodists and a catholic instead the Jews he was gunning for!
Because the news changes from minute to minute, I don’t know if it’s true that the shooter yelled “Heil Hitler” as he was being placed in a police car. But I won’t be surprised if he did.

Someone mentioned on TV that the number of hate groups in the US has grown to nearly 2000 in the years since Obama was elected president--a depressing statistic. I thought it was only (only!) about 1000.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

From the Southern Poverty Law Center" "The number of Patriot groups (explained in the link below), including armed militias, skyrocketed following the election of President Obama in 2008 - " rising 813 percent, from 149 groups in 2008 to an all-time high of 1,360 in 2012. The number fell to 1,096 in 2013."

"Currently, there are 939 known hate groups operating across the country, including neo-Nazis, Klansmen, white nationalists, neo-Confederates, racist skinheads, black separatists, border vigilantes and others."

Here is a link that might be useful: SPLC


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

The statistic I heard today on TV (I think it was from the Southern Poverty League) was that Klan groups (or maybe it was hate groups in general) had grown by 56 times since 2000.

They certainly seem to be making more noise recently--but maybe that is because there are more of them.

I've got another "why" question. Why would the years 2000 to 2014 be so ripe for the growth of such groups? Part of that time, Obama was president and I'm sure that has brought some haters out of the woodwork, but he wouldn't account for a growth dating back to 2000.

Does it have something to do with the stagnant middle class? Wasn't it those years that we saw a lack of growth in the middle classes? Would that frustration make some people susceptible to ideas that Klan/Nazi/hate groups cultivate?

Kate


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

I really don't understand the "why" myself. Recessions usually follow irrational exuberance of some kind. The stock market decline of 2000 probably kicked it all off - not to say the neo-Nazis and all the camouflage sporting yahoos running around in the woods were heavily invested. But then you have the decline of the dot.coms, people buying homes they could ill afford, unemployment on the rise, and a general middle class malaise. It all seems to gather itself into "something" that foments discontent. And its gathering scoops up all the fringe elements.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

  • Posted by batya Israel north 8-9-10 (My Page) on
    Mon, Apr 14, 14 at 18:31

True, but then you have the other thread about the cows, where when the rancher got threatened, "his" militia showed up, and were scary enough to make the Feds retreat!

Yes, each holiday, the schools and synagogues have extra security. Happens all the time, all over the country, even the world. Folks looking for a scapegoat? Maybe. Pulling guns to kill Jews? Yeah, that happens too. And Blacks, Muslims, women.
And as someone said before, if we were running the country, why are we doing such a lousy job of it? Sheesh.

And BTW, Jews do proselytize - just to other Jews. Watch the Habad Orthodox, and the other streams of Ultra Orthodox, and how they suck people in, separate them from their families, etc. We actually say someone has "gone black" because of the clothes they wear, as if they disappear into a black hole. You've heard me say it before, fundamentalists are fundamentalists, no matter what group. They all do the same damage.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

  • Posted by rosie Southeast 7A/B (My Page) on
    Mon, Apr 14, 14 at 18:34

Well, speaking off the top of my head, about all of us actually, but remembering we're thinking of reactionary far right extremists, whose natural resistance to change and elevated vulnerability to fear and insecurity should be expected to result in...extreme reaction:

The right has been losing power after a heady period of ascendancy.

Housing bubble burst - Millions of people who thought they were sitting on a comfortable retirement saw a far bleaker and less secure future.

Same for stock investments of the same period.

Millions of homes are in towns that are dying and neighborhoods in sudden, severe decline. The kids won't stay, and the parents with they could leave with them. If only.

Religion is becoming less important after a period of ascendancy.

The Great Recession - planetwide.

Disappearance of vast numbers of jobs that are not coming back.

Millions of formerly competent workers who newly discover no one wants them and that even retraining will not bring back their former earnings.

The future belongs to the educated, and many just aren't smart enough to hack it and are forced to face it.

Stagnation for decades and then actual drops in incomes for millions.

Trust that imagined partnership with an elite authoritarian class would pay off, now turned to realization of betrayal and contempt. Business is now on their backs.

The future is a great mystery to most who read and a scary black hole to those who do not.

We elected a negro to the presidency.

The Democrats who are committed destroying the country are starting to win on many fronts.

The Republican plan to milk the country for private interests has largely succeeded, and we're too divided to take charge again.

Even people who don't read finally discovered that less than 50% of Americans will be "white."

Right wing media of all types are laying on the fear tactics to keep people from starting to feel things might be getting better.

In spite of right wing media, the climate-crisis people were apparently right all along. A $500/year flood policy could become $5000/month, destroying nice neighborhoods on all coastal plains.

We're getting older on average and are thus less likely to believe that we'll always have another chance.

Insecurity and fear equal anger and anxiety, and in many this translates to a need to identify the enemy and smite him.

What if the end is near? Whom among loved ones will be saved and what will happen to the others?

The steaks are almost done and I've temporarily tapped out on gloom and doom, but all that is now making me glad that most of those especially prone to violence and hate are mostly contenting themselves with posturing around in costumes, yammering on the web, and beating the occasional unfortunate.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

I would add to Rosie's list the terror attacks of September 11, and the general paranoia regarding repeat attacks in the future. The so-called war on terror added to the hostility towards Arabs and Muslims found among certain self-identified patriots. The Department of Homeland Security with its accompanying color-coded threat levels certainly helped to ramp up the paranoia.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

fundamentalists are fundamentalists, no matter what group. They all do the same damage.

Indeed.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

"They enjoy shouting down those who didn't agree with them."

Souinds like FOX News.

:o/


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

A good article in today's nytimes about this fellow.

It raises the very important point, the connection between people trained to fight our wars of aggression against the "others" - whether asians, middle-easterners, south americans, africans, or the enemy du jour - and domestic violence after their return and inability to readjust to normal society.

Let's not get distracted by protests that not all veterans do this kind of thing, no they don't, and not all kids who are sexually abused become abusers, but a percentage invariably do and the abuse is a major factor. It is very well-known that military training is racially-based, whether the enemy du jour is this or that sort of other is immaterial, the way it is done is to convince the trainee that these other people are different and very dangerous and that it is at a genetic level. Some of those trained naturally won't be able to unwind it.

So we can fully blame our own foreign policy and militaristic rulers for theses kinds of events. Thanks a lot, and BTW, stop spending taxpayer dollars on drones and others forms of illegal mass-killings.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

What bothers me is the fact that some "news" sources claim this guy to be a right winger. How?

If he is a NAZI sympathizer he is a Socialist. NAZI is short for National Socialist German Worker's Party. National in German is pronounced NA-TSI-ON-AL. Hence NAZI.

We all know the history and beginnings of the Klan. And although there are new members every day, I'll bet 99% don't know the Klan hated Blacks, Jews, Catholics, etc.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

History lesson needed.

"Socialist" in "National Socialist German Worker's Party" doesn't mean what you automatically assume it meant. The Nazis gave their own meaning to that word:


Nazism, or National Socialism in full (German: Nationalsozialismus), is the ideology and practice associated with the 20th-century German Nazi Party and state as well as other related far-right groups. Usually characterised as a form of fascism that incorporates scientific racism and antisemitism, Nazism originally developed from the influences of pan-Germanism, the Völkisch German nationalist movement and the anti-communist Freikorps paramilitary culture in post-First World War Germany, which many Germans felt had been left humiliated by the Treaty of Versailles.

The use of the name “National Socialism” arose out of earlier attempts by German right-wing figures to create a nationalist redefinition of “socialism”, as a reactionary alternative to both internationalist Marxist socialism and free market capitalism. This involved the idea of uniting rich and poor Germans for a common national project without eliminating class differences (a concept known as "Volksgemeinschaft", or "people's community"), and promoted the subordination of individuals and groups to the needs of the nation, state and leader. National Socialism rejected the Marxist concept of class struggle, opposed ideas of equality and international solidarity, and sought to defend private property.


Words mean whatever people decide they mean. To Nazis, the word "socialism" had a different meaning than what you and I would probably use in connection with that word.

Kate

Here is a link that might be useful: Definition of Nazi Socialism

This post was edited by dublinbay on Wed, Apr 16, 14 at 10:22


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

This is just a guy with not uncommon bigoted tendencies who came out of military training and then an experience in a war of foreign aggression that likely included killing people fairly indiscriminately with a much stronger tendency to be violent than would have otherwise been the case.

There is nothing surprising about it. A predictable percentage of such returnees are violent, it's well known.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

And you're full of it, PN.

To Europeans, The "right" is similar to our Left, and their "Left" is our Communism.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

That is a convenient tale to tell yourself, chris. Have you got some evidence that the definition I provided is wrong? What I provided is the accepted viewpoint in the history books, you know.

No where in that definition I provided do I see it specified that the WWII word "socialist' as defined by the Nazis was based on a far-left model of the world. In fact, the Nazis viewed all the lefties as enemies!

Besides, Nazi Germany was primarily about "Nationalism."

Kate


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

And here I thought everyone knew the Klan hated Jews and just about everyone else. It's not like they try to hide it.

So Christopher no comment on the repeated information about socialists? I remember pointing this out to you before although not as well as Kate did it. Being the sort of socialist that we know today would have you quick marched to the nearest death camp by the Nazi's. This falls under the same sort of information category as what it means to be a Republican or Democrat. Times change.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

Birds of a feather...

Marionville Mayor: I agree with Frazier Miller's beliefs, not behaviors

MARIONVILLE, Mo. -
Kansas prosecutors filed state murder charges against the white supremacist accused in a shooting spree that left three people dead at two Jewish community sites over the weekend.

Johnson County District Attorney announced Tuesday the charges against Frazier Glenn Cross, also known as Frazier Glenn Miller.

He's charged for the deaths of a 14-year-old boy, his grandfather, and another woman. The capital murder count is connected to the deaths of William Lewis Corporon and Reat Griffin Underwood, said Steve Howe, district attorney for Johnson County. The premeditated murder count is linked to the death of Terri LaManno.

73-year-old Cross is from the Aurora- area and his racist activities have long drawn the attention of hate-group monitors.

"He was always a little bit different," said Brent Kasinger, who knew Frazier Cross as Frazier Miller. "He was always real nice and polite. He was not shy, that's one thing. He was not a shy person at all. He spoke his opinion, which you know, you could respect that at least. You may not like his opinion, but at least you knew it. You knew exactly where he stood with him."

Marionville's new mayor, elected Tuesday, called Miller a friend.

"He was always nice and friendly and respectful of elder people, you know, he respected his elders greatly. As long as they were the same color as him," laughed Clevenger. "Very fair and honest and never had a bit of problems out of him."

In addition to being mayor, Clevenger, also owns a repair shop. He knew Miller by many names.

"When I first met him, he called himself Frazier Mais. I think that was spelled Mais," recalled Clevenger. "If I remember right. Then all of a sudden he started calling himself Frazier Miller."

Despite the name change, Clevenger said Miller's biased beliefs stayed strong.

"Kind of agreed with him on some things but, I don't like to express that too much," said Clevenger.

That hasn't always been the case. Nearly a decade ago, Clevenger wrote a letter to the editor of the Aurora Advertiser.

"I am a friend of Frazier Miller helping to spread his warnings," wrote Clevenger. "The Jew-run medical industry has succeeded in destroying the United State's workforce."

The letter continued.

"Made a few Jews rich by killin' us off."

He also spoke of the "Jew-run government backed banking industry turned the U.S into the world's largest debtor nation."

Years later, Clevenger's views haven't seemed to change.

"There some things that are going on in this country that are destroying us. We've got a false economy and it's, some of those corporations are run by Jews because the names are there," he said. "The fact that the Federal Reserve prints up phony money and freely hands it out, I think that's completely wrong. The people that run the Federal Reserve, they're Jewish."

After prosecutors charged Miller, known as Cross, with murder, Clevenger said his opinion of his friend has changed.

"It was shocking that he would do something like that, but knowing him and how much was built up inside of him, I can understand why he would be the one to do that," said Clevenger. "He didn't expect to live very long. So after he done this, I kind of speculated that he might be wanting to go out proving his point big time on that. I imagine when he goes to trial, he will be able to really state his views on things, and I think he's just wanting to go out with a bang."

Although Clevenger puts blame on some minorities, he said he stands firmly against violence. He also said he doesn't hate anyone.

"I think it's terrible what Frazier did," said Clevenger. "He didn't have any right to do that and I think he should pay with his life."

Copyright © 2014, KSPR News


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

I just read that article, epi. It provides evidence that Miller is hardly alone in his racist ugliness and that there are plenty of people willing to carry his water. IMO, racism is a simmering threat very easy to buy in to.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

Avoid the ad hominems, Chris, or I'll report you. If you don't have the chops to debate, then go elsewhere.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

  • Posted by batya Israel north 8-9-10 (My Page) on
    Wed, Apr 16, 14 at 16:51

Interesting stuff on Rachel Maddow yesterday about the whole thing, very interesting stuff about the shooter and who ,and what he is connected with.
Interesting and scary.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

It provides evidence that Miller is hardly alone in his racist ugliness and that there are plenty of people willing to carry his water. IMO, racism is a simmering threat very easy to buy in to.

We don't have to look far. We have seen it right here on HT when Stormfront was used as if it was a reputable source.

It isn't going anywhere until ignorance and fear/paranoia are abated. And then there are always those who need a scapegoat for (fill in the blank).


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

"We don't have to look far. We have seen it right here on HT when Stormfront was used as if it was a reputable source."

How many times has that happened?


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

Elvis-are you defending Miller? What is the point of your comment? I remember some people defending that poster's right to use Stormfront as if it weren't the worst kind of racist rant site. Cant we at least agree that we think this sort of stuff is horribly wrong? If you are going to use racist hate sites to back up your argument most of us are going to object?


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

How many times has that happened?

Too many.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

•Posted by patriciae Z7PNW (My Page) on Wed, Apr 16, 14 at 20:41

"Elvis-are you defending Miller?"

No.

"What is the point of your comment?"

That wasn't a comment, it was a question.

"I remember some people defending that poster's right to use Stormfront as if it weren't the worst kind of racist rant site."

Well, I don't know what "Stormfront" is, and it does't sound like something I want to look up. I'll take your word for it,. But yes, I would defend a poster's right to use any site that suited their purpose. I would defend your right to reference any site you wished to, also.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

I would defend a poster's right to use any site that suited their purpose.

Even one filled with hate and lies.

SMH


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

From the inimitable Wiki...

"Stormfront is a white nationalist,[2] white supremacist[3] and neo-Nazi[4] internet forum that was the internet's first major racial hate site.[5]

Stormfront began as an online bulletin board system in the early 1990s before being established as a website in 1995 by former Ku Klux Klan leader and white nationalist activist Don Black. It received national attention in the United States in 2000 after being featured as the subject of a documentary, Hate.com. Stormfront has been the subject of controversy after being removed from French, German and Italian Google indexes, for targeting an online FOX News poll on racial segregation, and for having political candidates as members. Its prominence has grown since the 1990s, attracting attention from watchdog organizations that oppose racism and antisemitism.

The website is a theme-based discussion forum with numerous boards for topics including ideology, science, revisionism, homeschooling, and self defense. Stormfront also hosts news stories, a merchandise store, and extensive links to racist organizations. The site has a logo featuring the Celtic cross common to neo-Nazi iconography surrounded by the motto "White Pride World Wide"."


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

Well, I don't know what "Stormfront" is

Disingenuous to claim you don't know what it is. You participated in that very thread where it was discussed.

This post was edited by epiphyticlvr on Thu, Apr 17, 14 at 9:52


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

I'm OK with people using the sites they want to back up their opinions or statements. It helps understand who they really are and where they are coming from.

I'm also OK with challenging the veracity, reputation and agenda of the source.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

Any one is free to cite any source he/she wants, I suppose, but if a person wants the source to add credibility to his/her argument, he/she will probably opt for legitimate sites that are generally recognized for their reliability and integrity by professional organizations and expert/informed as well as general readers.

Citing sources like Stormfront will only undermine the credibility of an argument with most readers--unless they are white priders or neo-Nazis or radicals like that.

Kate


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

Sometimes you're the windshield....

I'm always willing to learn. Tell me all about it.

Zealots are found every where. I just now found out the origin of the word, "zealot"

"Full Definition of ZEALOT

1
capitalized : a member of a fanatical sect arising in Judea during the first century a.d. and militantly opposing the Roman domination of Palestine
2 : a zealous person; especially : a fanatical partisan (a religious zealot)"

This man is not the first to use violence and terror to try to advance his goals.

Irgun.

Could the Jewish state of Israel exist without them and their terrorist violence?

I do hope that Wikipedia is an approved site.

... sometimes you're the bug.

Hay


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

I do hope that Wikipedia is an approved site.

For non-controversial topics, it is usually fine. It has many of the virtues of any encyclopedia in that they, by definition, present convenient summaries of agreed upon types of information in a variety of fields.

Its limitation is that it is NOT written by experts in the field always--amateurs and other interested folks can also add information. Just check some of the political entries during a hot election. The candidate's supporters often try to add campaign propaganda and delete info. that may not reflect well on their candidate. However, I do give wiki credit that they go out of their way to try to eliminate such questionable items. But that is why one must reserve a grain of skepticism when using wiki--and probably stick to non-controversial information or the generally accepted information in each field.

For the latest in research that is forging new directions, exploring the newest issues, or addressing currently controversial topics, you usually have to go to a college library site and look up specialty articles published in refereed academic journals in the various fields of specialization and written in the technical language of that specialization--and intended for other specialist researchers.

Kate


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

"Citing sources like Stormfront will only undermine the credibility of an argument with most readers--unless they are white priders or neo-Nazis or radicals like that."

...and that is precisely why I'm OK with it.

When we see what sources a poster views as credible it helps us understand better what information the poster bases their opinions on......great insight into where the poster is coming from.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Thu, Apr 17, 14 at 10:31

"I'm OK with people using the sites they want to back up their opinions or statements. It helps understand who they really are and where they are coming from"

I agree Chase ..

"better the devil I know then the devil I don't"


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

When we see what sources a poster views as credible it helps us understand better what information the poster bases their opinions on......great insight into where the poster is coming from.

I agree.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

"Nearly 100 people in the last five years have been murdered by active users of the leading racist website, Stormfront, according to a report released today by the SPLC’s Intelligence Project.

Registered Stormfront users have been disproportionately responsible for some of the most lethal hate crimes and mass killings since the web forum became the first hate site on the Internet in 1995, a month before the Oklahoma City bombing. The report found that hate killings by Stormfront members began to accelerate rapidly in early 2009, when Barack Obama took office as the nation’s first black president.

A similar racist web forum, Vanguard News Network (VNN), was used by neo-Nazi and former Klan leader Frazier Glenn Miller, who has been charged with the Sunday murder of three people he mistakenly believed were Jews in Overland Park, Kan. Miller, who apparently changed his last name in recent years to Cross, logged more than 12,000 posts on VNN, whose slogan is, “No Jews, Just Right.”

“Stormfront is the murder capital of the racist Internet,” said Heidi Beirich, report author and Intelligence Project director. “It has been a magnet for the deadly and deranged. And VNN is almost as bad.”"

"Stormfront users have included Wade Michael Page, who shot to death six people before killing himself at a Sikh temple in Wisconsin in 2012; Richard Andrew Poplawski, who murdered three Pittsburgh police officers in 2009; and Anders Behring Breivik, who bombed a government building in Norway, killing eight people, and then massacred 69 people, most of them teenagers, at a summer camp in 2011."

Here is a link that might be useful: SPLC report...


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

A quick look at the use of Stormfront, I believe...

Here is a link that might be useful: The WayBack Machine...


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

I'm OK with people using the sites they want to back up their opinions or statements. It helps understand who they really are and where they are coming from

Yes, I agree. If that is what elvis meant, I can stop shaking my head. But, I think she meant more along the lines of what MrsK repeatedly said, which is that if we see the hate and racism, we should just move along and not comment. Hoping I was wrong.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

Oh I think you are dead right Jill.......but I for one will never move along and I know that many here feel the same way.

My point is I love it when the veil drops...


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

•Posted by jillinnj (My Page) on Fri, Apr 18, 14 at 14:48

***I'm OK with people using the sites they want to back up their opinions or statements. It helps understand who they really are and where they are coming from***

"Yes, I agree. If that is what elvis meant, I can stop shaking my head. But, I think she meant more along the lines of what MrsK repeatedly said, which is that if we see the hate and racism, we should just move along and not comment. Hoping I was wrong."

Sure you are. Man, you are all over the forum with this stuff. "If that is what elvis meant."

Why not just ask Elvis, instead of plowing on like you do: "But, I think she meant..."

You are on a roll, and it's not a good one, Jill.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

Feel free to tell us how you feel, elvis. Given your history here I don't expect you to give an honest opinion on the topic, but would love to be surprised.

I agree, chase. Those veils never last very long, do they?


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

•Posted by jillinnj (My Page) on Fri, Apr 18, 14 at 16:28

"Feel free to tell us how you feel, elvis. Given your history here I don't expect you to give an honest opinion on the topic, but would love to be surprised.
I agree, chase. Those veils never last very long, do they?"

I need neither your permission nor your blessing to express my opinion, Jill.

As to your nasty personal aspersion, I believe I'll start a "scrapbook" of sorts. When it gets unwieldy, I'll unload it and you can sort out the results.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

But still no explanation...that would be too easy or maybe too hard.

Stormfront is exactly the sort of so called free speech forum that we as a culture need to rethink. If it indeed inciting people to kill based on their prejudices then it is a forum that needs to be made responsible for what they say and what they do. This is the hard stuff of being a free society. We are not free to murder each other for what ever reason.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

•Posted by chase z6 (My Page) on Fri, Apr 18, 14 at 15:02

"Oh I think you are dead right Jill.......but I for one will never move along and I know that many here feel the same way.
My point is I love it when the veil drops..."

Now how did I miss this one? Just compounds the problem you have created Jill, what with putting your words in my mouth and all. Now Chase is supporting your fantasy about what you think I meant when I posted:

"Well, I don't know what "Stormfront" is, and it doesn't sound like something I want to look up. I'll take your word for it,. But yes, I would defend a poster's right to use any site that suited their purpose. I would defend your right to reference any site you wished to, also."

This gets better and better. You like to say that "you can't make this stuff up." Sure you can; you did.

Chase, into the "scrapbook" you go.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

Jill and Chase--are you trembling in fear at the threats?

Kate


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

What is it about Good Friday that is bringing out this behaviour?


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

Yes, a most solemn day. Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

"Well, I don't know what "Stormfront" is, and it doesn't sound like something I want to look up. I'll take your word for it"


Selective memory or just disingenuous?

You participated in at least one thread about Stormfront . It is very clear on that thread what SF is. There have been other threads where Stormfront is discussed as well. Now you are claiming you don't know what it is and you want others to believe you?

More of your usual games.


Posted by elvis 4 (My Page) on
Mon, Aug 5, 13 at 16:36

Epi: "Whether he was right or wrong it doesn’t take away from the fact that he used a well known bigoted source to post when there were other sites to use.'
You've got to be kidding. One doesn't have to click on a link if they fear it may offend their sensibilities, or if they fear anything else about the site.


Here is a link that might be useful: Link


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

Let's make your post more clear. You have cut and pasted, verbatim, a post as indicated above, but it's sort of run together.

Epi: "Whether he was right or wrong it doesn’t take away from the fact that he used a well known bigoted source to post when there were other sites to use."

Elvis: "You've got to be kidding. One doesn't have to click on a link if they fear it may offend their sensibilities, or if they fear anything else about the site."

Much better. And?


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

Sad attempt at deflection. Most understood the point Elvis and don't need to be spoonfed. Besides, the link was provided so anyone could read the thread in context and see that it would be hard for you not to know what SF is as you claimed. .


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

Whatever trips your trigger, Epi. I don't mind.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

Epi: "Whether he was right or wrong it doesn’t take away from the fact that he used a well known bigoted source to post when there were other sites to use."

If you want a well known bigoted source, check out the Bible, particularly the Old Testament.

I hope you'll forgive a few quotes.

"Deuteronomy 7

When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations---"the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you---- 2 and when the Lord your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally.[a] Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. 3 Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, 4 for they will turn your children away from following me to serve other gods, and the Lord’s anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you. 5 This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles[b] and burn their idols in the fire. 6 For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.
...

1 Peter 2:9

9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

...

Deuteronomy 14:2

2 for you are a people holy to the Lord your God. Out of all the peoples on the face of the earth, the Lord has chosen you to be his treasured possession.

...

Nehemiah 13

23 Moreover, in those days I saw men of Judah who had married women from Ashdod, Ammon and Moab. 24 Half of their children spoke the language of Ashdod or the language of one of the other peoples, and did not know how to speak the language of Judah. 25 I rebuked them and called curses down on them. I beat some of the men and pulled out their hair. I made them take an oath in God’s name and said: “You are not to give your daughters in marriage to their sons, nor are you to take their daughters in marriage for your sons or for yourselves...

...

Deuteronomy 23

3 An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the Lord for ever:

...

Leviticus 25

44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."

There's more where that came from. Much, much more.

And, no, I will not post a link.

Hay


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

Oh, boy. Here we go with the religion-is-the-problem-with-the-world crowd.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

To be more precise, literal acceptance of the Torah/Old Testament is a big problem when you have fundamental Jews or Christians influencing politics.

This from the New Testament always seems to be ignored: "let ye who is without sin…."


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

"ye who . . .".
Aha, some one else raised on the King James version. Can't help it--no matter how many modern translations are out there, when I start quoting the Bible, it always comes out King James! (which was, after all, a beautiful translation).

Kate


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

My grandmother switched to one of those modern translations when she was born-again, but before that it always a king James. My mother-in-law has her grandparents Bible in Swedish, probably about an 1870 print date. I wonder what that was based on?


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

  • Posted by rosie Southeast 7A/B (My Page) on
    Sun, Apr 20, 14 at 11:21

Beats me, PN, but let's hope nobody ever died defending its syntax. :) I agree entirely with the points you've made. Nazism doesn't align in its original doctrine with our parties here today, but it appealed then, as it does now, to the reactionary conservatives who voted for Hitler, same as the KKK. And increasingly sophisticated modern militaries have solved the problem of getting unfortunate young people to kill by training them to be killers. Not every one of them is as suited to to live in civilized society as when they left.

As for veils, distractions, misrepresentations, denials, deflections, to know what's really behind the deceptions, one only need look at the end result of it a -- what is being defended; if another poster, what THAT person is espousing; what is not defended, what is undermined, what is denied, what is lied about.

We all take advantage of anonymity to indulge ourselves here, in the process creating very strong patterns over time, strong enough that they show right through veils and social pretenses of being other than what we really are.

BTW, Storm Front is REALLY worthy of the word of the week being flung around, "nasty." Although that hardly states it. That we actually have our own SF rep here among this garden-forum crowd, at least one who admits it, adds...dimension to the discussion. Just glad "here" is not literally here.

I support Stormfront's right to exist and its members to speak out. I just want the FBI to do a far better job of culling criminals from those cesspools before their crimes include murder.

This post was edited by rosie on Sun, Apr 20, 14 at 11:35


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

And while anyone is free to cite or not cite Stormfront, I will still continue to question the credibility of anyone who cites Stormfront as support or evidence to back up his/her position.

Kate


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

Re Stormfront: I'm surprised that a commercial site such as Garden Web, which hopes to attract the general public and ever increasing view numbers, has no problem with links to Stormfront.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

I believe I'll start a "scrapbook" of sorts. When it gets unwieldy, I'll unload it and you can sort out the results.

Knock yourself out. Some of us here prefer to spend the time stating our opinions. And there are others that for some reason will not state their opinion on the topic and prefer to just nip at any ankles they can find.

Jill and Chase--are you trembling in fear at the threats?

I am trembling! From the fits of laughter!


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

I'm not aware of this stormfront thing.

Just to be clear, I don't think Muslim fundies should have any part in politics either. Fanaticism is a problem anywhere.


 o
RE: Elderly man kills Jewish seniors

The story gets more convoluted as the days pass.

Ex-KKK Leader Was Given a New Identity Years Before Shooting

Frazier Glenn Cross, the man accused of murder in the shootings of three people outside Jewish facilities in Kansas last week was, for all practical purposes, born at the age of 49.

The federal government gave him that name when he was released from prison in 1990, along with a new social security number and a new place to live, not far from the Missouri River in western Iowa.
The idea was to erase any connection to the man he had been before: Frazier Glenn Miller. White Nationalist leader. Spewer of hate. Federal informant.

...

Less than three years earlier Miller had been a fugitive from justice, the subject of a nationwide manhunt after he had declared war on blacks and Jews, exhorting his thousands of followers to violently overthrow the very government that would soon become his protector.

“Let the blood of our enemies flood the streets, rivers and fields of the nation,” Miller wrote. “[R]ise up and throw off the chains which bind us to the satanic, Jewish controlled and ruled federal government. Let the battle axes swing smoothly and the bullets wiss [sic] true.”

DECLARATION OF WAR

In the early morning hours of April 30, 1987, more than three dozen federal and state law enforcement agents surrounded a mobile home in Ozark, Missouri. A van recently purchased by Miller in Louisiana had been spotted outside by an agent the day before.

A volley of tear gas was fired and then, just after 7 a.m, four men emerged and gave themselves up.

Among them was Miller, the founder of Carolina Knights of the Ku Klux Klan and the paramilitary White Patriot Party in North Carolina. The United States Marshals Service had issued a nationwide bulletin seeking Miller’s arrest after he disappeared while appealing his conviction for criminal contempt.

Agents recovered hand grenades, automatic rifles, pistols and flak jackets inside the trailer, according to FBI statements at the time. Explosives experts from nearby Fort Leonard Wood were called in to detonate a box containing about twenty pipe bombs.

The authorities also found a Xerox machine and about a thousand copies of Miller’s “Declaration of War.” During his 10 days on the run, Miller had mailed his typewritten call to arms to thousands of white nationalists, as well as members of Congress and dozens of media outlets.

“I realize fully that I will be caught quickly,” Miller had written in his letter. “[B]ut I will die with contempt on my lips and with sword in my hand. My fate will either be assassination or the death penalty.”

But faced with an array of charges that could have put him behind bars for 20 years or more, Miller’s bombast was quickly reduced to a squeal. Within days of his arrest, he was signalling his willingness to make a deal.

“He stated that it was ‘all a bluff that got out of hand,’” according to an FBI agent’s notes, obtained by ABC News, of an interview with Miller a few weeks after his arrest. “[H]aving spent eight days in jail and having the opportunity to dry out from excessive alcohol consumption, he has learned to develop tolerance. He stated emphatically that he would never hurt anybody,” the agent wrote in recounting Miller’s statements.

Among those present for the initial interviews with Miller was then-federal prosecutor J. Douglas McCullough, now a judge on the North Carolina state court of appeals.

Steve Daniels, an anchor for ABC affiliate WTVD, interviewed McCullough this week in Raleigh.

“He tried to be a little bit self-serving,” McCullough said of Miller during the interview. “Every defendant in those situations usually is at first. But he did open up about a lot of things about the White Patriot Party. He detailed a number of people that were involved in illegal activities that were his associates. And that’s what we were looking for. ”

In a series of ensuing interviews with federal and North Carolina investigators, Miller never denied his racist and anti-Semitic views, but claimed he had always denounced violence and illegal activity.
“Miller wanted nothing more to do with the movement,” according to an FBI account of an interview in June of 1987. He was “willing to turn his back on it in order to return to his family. His problem in the past had been intolerance linked with excessive drinking.”

A month later, in an interview with the North Carolina State Bureau of Investigation, during which he accused two of his former comrades of murder, he described his time on the run from the law as little more than a lark.

“I was on vacation, flirting with girls and drinking beer and going red-necking,” Miller told the agents. “I love to go out and drink a beer with rednecks…do the Texas Two-Step. I’m a pretty good dancer by the way,” he said.

SHOCKING ALLEGATIONS

In the course of their investigation, authorities also learned the stunning details of Miller’s arrest a year earlier. Raleigh police officers had caught Miller in the back seat of a vehicle, in mid-act with a black male prostitute masquerading as a woman.

“It was pretty shocking,” says McCullough, “because of his personal stances that he had taken and what he was now accused on engaging in.”

McCullough says he has read the police report of the incident but declined to comment on the specifics. “I would rather not go into the details,” he said. “They’re rather salacious. I think the facts speak for themselves and people can draw their own conclusions about how incongruous that is.”

Miller was not charged in connection with the prostitution arrest and no public record of the incident could be located. But in a recorded phone call with the Southern Poverty Law Center last fall, Miller claimed that he had lured the prostitute to the meeting with the intention of beating him.

Eventually, McCullough, the federal prosecutor, would approve a plea deal with Miller recommending a five-year prison sentence in exchange for his cooperation and testimony against his former compatriots. He would serve less than three years of that sentence at a prison in western New York.
“I am not certain that we got 100 percent of what we wanted,” McCullough told WTVD. “He did testify in a couple of cases here in the eastern part of the state, or agreed to testify where the people plead guilty knowing he was going to testify.”
In 1998, Miller was a key witness in a high-profile federal trial that charged more than a dozen white nationalists in an alleged conspiracy to levy war against the United States government. The Department of Justice had called it Operation Clean Sweep. Miller testified that he had received two payments totaling $200,000 from a leader of the alleged conspiracy, but in the end all of those accused were acquitted and, incredibly, one of the jurors later married one of the defendants.
“His testimony was extremely weak,” says Leonard Zeskind, who tracked Miller’s activities in the 1980′s as research director for the Center for the Democratic Renewal, a civil rights group fighting Klan activities.

“I believe that Miller was essentially playing a game with the feds. And I don’t think he had any intention of becoming a good witness. The guy was a stone-to-the-bone Nazi,” Zeskind says. “He never gave that up. I am on the record as saying the man should have died in prison.”

But McCullough says that nothing would have changed what happened last week in Kansas. Even if he had refused to deal with Miller back in 1987, he would have spent no more than fifteen years in prison.

“We made the deal that we could make at the time and whether it’s right or wrong, it’s really kind of immaterial at this point,” McCullough says. “Human beings are unpredictable. I don’t think there is anybody who could know what he was capable of doing,” he said of the shootings in Kansas. “I certainly never saw that in his personality. He was a blowhard who liked to be in front of a crowd. He liked to whip the crowd up and get the emotions running high.”

Very little is known of the years Miller spent in Iowa and Nebraska living as Frazier Glenn Cross.

“He asked for protection from both the White Patriot Party people and blacks in prison because he had alienated both groups,” says McCullough. ”Obviously once he served his sentence he couldn’t go back to where his old compatriots were because he would be at risk. So we had to put him somewhere safe.”

It’s clear that Cross eventually discarded his assumed identity provided by the federal government and resumed his life as the belligerent, unapologetic white supremacist, Frazier Glenn Miller.

And no one, it seems, could predict the tragic consequences that would follow.

Here is a link that might be useful: link


 o Post a Follow-Up

Please Note: Only registered members are able to post messages to this forum.

    If you are a member, please log in.

    If you aren't yet a member, join now!


Return to the Hot Topics Forum

Information about Posting

  • You must be logged in to post a message. Once you are logged in, a posting window will appear at the bottom of the messages. If you are not a member, please register for an account.
  • Posting is a two-step process. Once you have composed your message, you will be taken to the preview page. You will then have a chance to review your post, make changes and upload photos.
  • After posting your message, you may need to refresh the forum page in order to see it.
  • Before posting copyrighted material, please read about Copyright and Fair Use.
  • We have a strict no-advertising policy!
  • If you would like to practice posting or uploading photos, please visit our Test forum.
  • If you need assistance, please Contact Us and we will be happy to help.


Learn more about in-text links on this page here