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Swiss Bank Account

Posted by esh_ga z7 GA (My Page) on
Tue, May 1, 12 at 11:17

"There are only 2 reasons to have a Swiss bank account: hedging against the dollar or avoiding paying fair share in taxes," tweeted Obama Press Secretary Ben LaBolt.

Obama's new ad is designed to show that Romney is out of touch with ordinary citizens and that his own past actions have been counter to decisions that would be chosen that have America's best interests at heart - which as has been pointed out before, is at the heart of being a "successful businessman".

"As a corporate CEO, [Romney] shipped American jobs to places like Mexico and China," the script goes. "As Governor, he outsourced state jobs to a call center in India. He's still pushing tax breaks for companies that ship jobs overseas. It's just what you expect from a guy who had a Swiss Bank Account."

Is it a fair point that what works best for a businessman is not necessarily what works best for a nation? That you can't just cut the unprofitable parts and keep the rest when it comes to people, the environment and infrastructure decisions like roads and basic education needs. And of course healthcare.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Swiss Bank Account

I don't think you can accurately compare running a nation to running a business... and I think this is where a lot of people aren't thinking beyond the budget.

A nation is made up of people of many different classes, ethnic groups, spiritual beliefs, incomes, ages, placement, etc...

A business is run to crate a product or service, and to profit.

The twain have not a whole lot in common, and to think so is overlooking a lot, in my opinion.

As to the Swiss bank account... why else would one need to place money outside their own nation of residence? It doesn't speak highly of Romney.


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

I guess they're talking about the past Swiss bank account, because thats a more recognizable tax-haven, wealth-hiding banking center than the Caymans, where he has current accounts.

I bet they did one of those focus group thingies, and asked the randomly selected citizens questions about Swiss and Cayman accounts.

Think of tax-doging Mafiosa. Where do they hide their money?

a) Swiss bank accounts
b) Cayman Island bank accounts
c) Under the mattress


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

Think of tax-doging Mafiosa. Where do they hide their money?

a) Swiss bank accounts
b) Cayman Island bank accounts
c) Under the mattress

d) Vatican bank




Sorry, I could not resist.


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RE: Swiss Bank Account


From the Obama Campaign:




Those are the publically known hide-away places (so far).


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

I couldn't even afford to travel for a visit to ONE of those places, or even buy a coffee table book filled with pictures... and for the "others", it's a simple afternoon jaunt in the private plane, briefcase in hand. Or, it might be an electronic transfer by a hired stock broker, or whomever...

Must be nice...


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

In Bermuda and the Cayman Islands it is only necessary to have an office and two employees to claim tax exempt status, this office and its employees need not be exclusive to any one company.


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

I have some of my pitiful retirement money in a Vanguard Emerging Market's Fund.

Me and Romney. Two of a kind.

Hay


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

  • Posted by vgkg 7-Va Tidewater (My Page) on
    Fri, May 4, 12 at 10:25

Wow, nice map, Hope Mitt isn't spreading himself too thin.
Always nice to have escape options when things hit the fan. Keep the Learjet warmed up Mitty, we won't allow you to take AF-1 with you.


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

Posted by jodik 5 (My Page) on
Fri, May 4, 12 at 8:26

I couldn't even afford to travel for a visit to ONE of those places, or even buy a coffee table book filled with pictures... and for the "others", it's a simple afternoon jaunt in the private plane, briefcase in hand. Or, it might be an electronic transfer by a hired stock broker, or whomever...

Must be nice...

*

If it's that nice and you wanted to do it, you could.

Our lives are a product of our decisions, and a series of tradeoffs.


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

If it's that nice and you wanted to do it, you could.

Our lives are a product of our decisions, and a series of tradeoffs.

Don't you ever tire of mocking people?


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

  • Posted by kwoods Cold z7 Long Is (My Page) on
    Fri, May 4, 12 at 11:45

"Our lives are a product of our decisions, and a series of tradeoffs."

People don't "decide" to have health issues. What an awful thing to say.

Did you "decide" not to be born in Bamako or Lilongwe?


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

Jodi: if you are stuck in a Reagan era time warp you can save your green shield stamps get a set of glasses, hoard them and sell them on ebay forty years later at a vast profit. I bet you wish you made some decisions like that.


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

If it's that nice and you wanted to do it, you could.

What an absolutely thoughtless statement.

Not everybody has the capacity or opportunities to make 20 million dollars a year.

According to some if you would like to make 20 mil a year and you're not, well then you are lazy and not working hard enough.


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

If it's that nice and you wanted to do it, you could.

Our lives are a product of our decisions, and a series of tradeoffs.

It's that GOP mantra again, the "personal responsibility" crapola coming out of Demi's mouth again.

Nothing "thoughtless, awful, mocking", about those words.

They are exactly what Demi, the GOP and those teabaggers honestly believe.

It's a superiority complex thing, an "I'm better than you" type attitude, it's a self centered "me, myself and I" belief.

It's that, "if I can do it, so can you and if you can't well to bad for you, suffer, sleep in the gutter, I don't care a hoot about you. You didn't take personal responsibility for yourself, for your family, so why should I or anyone else be bothered with you. Suffer the consequences of your stupidity, your ignorance, your not doing what you should have been doing for yourself and your family. Just because I did, just because I'm better than you, why should I care about you. suffer and do so in silence."

Such attitudes is the belief of the GOP/TeaParty and a vote for Romney is a vote for those attitudes and will be exactly what happens to everyone that is not in that top1%. suffer the consequences of not taking that mantra "personal responsibility" seriously. you will be down and out for the count, sleeping on the street, being kicked by your own government even more than you already have been. and those at the top 1% will be laughing at all of us, all the way to the bank.


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

littleonefb, I disagree it is not what they believe it is what they have been told to believe.

It will make them vote against their own best personal and, economic interest. So many do not have as my Mom use to say "A pot to piss in or a window to throw it out".

They are one disaster away from homeless but will buy every word they are told to believe. Even the ones standing in front of a shack with garbage as furniture believe the talking points. They are rich with rhetoric (talking point) and poor financially.

These people that repeat the same line about you are poor because of your actions do not have anything. If they were financially wealthy they would not be posting on HT. I would bet if you showed them a map they could not point to the Cayman Island for that matter J Leno use to do a man on the street segment and half the people could not even point to their own state.

Maybe they think the Cayman Islands is in Louisiana.


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

Marquest, good point, but I have to had that probably 1/3 to 1/2 actually believe the GOP mantra and the rest of them are "brainwashed" for a lack of a better word to use, to believe the GOP/TeaParty mantra that is spewed forth from the mouths of the elected party crew.

I keep thinking of my almost 80 year old neighbor and her 53 year old son's comments when all the insanity was going on with the public attending those absurd meetings and the insanity that was spouting out.

Comments like "keep government out of my Medicare". I really thought my dear, sweet neighbor was going to literally die in a fit of laughter as she tried to say, "who in god's green earth do they think is running Medicare? the ghost of Christmas past"?

or the ridiculous claims of "death panels and kill grandma" and that same sweet, elderly neighbor's son told his mother "well mom, you don't have anything to worry about, you aren't a grandma." as he doubled over in a fit of laughter.

Is it some kind of disease that has developed in the GOP/TeaParty believer's brain that they aren't capable of thinking for themselves, understanding what is said and what they are actually saying before they say it? Or bother to do some research to find out if what they are being told is actually true or some kind of twisted absurdity to instill the fear of god into them and get their support?

Never in my life have I seen such craziness go on and people gullible enough to believe the craziness that they are hearing.

And before any of you conservatives try saying the same thing about the rest of us, we are not the ones that are "sipping the juice", believing the absurdity that is coming out of and has been coming out of the GOP/TeaParty all these years.
We are not the ones that have birthers that lay claim to being part of the GOP/TeaParty, we don't go around inciting the troops by telling them outright lies to believe, twisting anything and everything that the opposition says and then stating it as facts to rally the support to get the votes. We are not the party that is running on a platform that denies certain populations of this country their civil and equal rights nor are we the party that is trying to choke their personal religious and moral values and beliefs on an entire population.

The GOP/TeaParty is full of "talking points, rhetoric and lots and lots of hot air and outright lies. Doing what is good for the country and/or good for the people is not on their agenda, at least not as long as the existing President is in the Oval Office. In that case their is only 1 goal, destroy the Presidents administration and make him a 1 term president at any and all costs.

Considering the length of time the GOP/TeaParty has had to come up with a presidential candidate, it just boggles the mind that the best they could come up with was what was on display for so long, and the last man standing is disliked by far more than liked.

The support for the "lone survivor" of the "circus, dog and pony show", is an absurd joke, with enough flaws to be president to share with several candidates.
His support is meager, to say the least. Those at the top of the GOP that are now announcing their support for the "lone survivor", Romney is as cool as it can get.

And the conservatives, the evangelicals, the right wing GOP/TeaParty expect this "lone survivor" to beat Obama?

Good luck with that one, you are going to need it.


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

I will to all of you everything I have worked for.


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Romney

lol @littleonefb,

I know, I know....I just do not understand. But I guess when you are brainwashed you cannot help yourself. It is like an abused wife that cannot face the facts.


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RE: Swiss Bank Account


clip this post email this post what is this?
see most clipped and recent clippings

Posted by jerzeegirl 9 (My Page) on
Fri, May 4, 12 at 11:20

If it's that nice and you wanted to do it, you could.

Our lives are a product of our decisions, and a series of tradeoffs.

Don't you ever tire of mocking people

*

Don't ever tire of the whining and excuses?


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

I don't whine. I don't make excuses.


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Whiners and Excuse Makers

Not too much, JG ;)


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

"Our lives are a product of our decisions, and a series of tradeoffs".
Yes, yes and yes.

I came from share-croppers with a house full of kids on a gravel road.
My mother took in washings and ironings(on a ringer type washer).
NO govern help because they were too proud.
One brother a Professor at Yale in the 1970's & 80's.
One brother a CPA
One brother a dentist.
One brother owned a million dollar business before retirement.
One brother co-owned million business with brother/sporting goods.
One brother still trying to find himself at 66.
I did very well myself.
We came from NOTHING but fine Christian people who taught us hard work, hard work, inner drive , inner drive.
When I look from that gravel road to how we all got to where we are today.....NO ONE gave us anything, no one.
The boys worked at anything and everything to go to school.
They all give their thanks to the Lord for their blessings.

I believe in this day and time.....its still out there for the shakers and doers and the ambitious.

Nothing will keep you down if you want it bad enough.
I clap and stomp my feet for people with wealth.
Even if they inherited their wealth...they had to be wise enough to hold on to it and help it to grow.

We can get there from a gravel road or from inheritance.
More power to us.


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

Projection. It ain't pretty.

Pay no attention, just more of that creepy behaviour of going after their favourite target, following around quoting them all day long.

Note the silence on the tax dodger. Speaks volumes.


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

What was I thinking?! I CHOSE to have an incurable disease instead of putting sweat equity into getting rich!

And the accident I was merely a passenger in... the one that finished me off, spinally! Gosh, and to think of what I could have now instead of all this pain and anguish!

I repeat Jerzee's epithet... and I answer it with a resounding NO... some people never tire of mocking the disabilities and poor luck of others.

What a wondrous world we inhabit, eh?


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

That is exactly right, Citywoman.

With very few unusual instances, no one is forced to get married, no one is forced to have children, no one is forced to only work one job, no one is forced to quit school. No one is forced to stay away from libraries and no one is forced to stay in the community they were born in.

No one is forced into any job and no one is forced to give up when life happens to them--the brave and determined work with their handicaps and tragedies and get on with life and do not use them as excuses to not strive to attain what they do want in life.

Congratulations to your family; your mom must be proud of the self starters and if they're all happy with their lives, their good decisions and series of tradeoffs.

Doers are much more likely to succeed than whiners.


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

no one is forced to quit school

Really? Tell that to my 93 year old dad. The one that had to quit school when he was 16 because his dad dropped dead and someone had to support the family.

Tell it to my parents that did not have the opportunity or financial means to go to college, much less finish high school for my dad.

Tell it to my parents that worked their entire lives to support our family. Never lived extravagantly. We lived in a tiny house. We went on 2 vacations my entire life -- once we drove to Florida and stayed with relatives. Another time we drove to the Jersey shore and stayed in a hotel for a few nights. They were very responsible. You'd love them demi.

Yet, they were never able to save any money towards retirement. There wasn't an extra dime to save. It went to feeding and clothing us.

So, now, my 93 year old dad and 89 year old mother collect their social security. They have no savings. They never had savings. Their SS does not go very far. My brother and I pay for everything else. Lucky for us and lucky for them we can afford to do that. I shudder to think where they'd be in their old age if their 2 kids were not here or not able to help them. And, then I listen to people like Ryan and Romney and people on this forum that don't care. Just want to cut, cut, cut. It's sickening. My parents and lots of others just like them worked hard their entire life and lived their life the right way and lots of you people would just throw them under the bus. Not a society I am proud to be a part of.


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

I don't have to tell that to anyone, Jillinnj.

My dad had to quit school at age 15 to lay floors (they're still in apartment buildings). He grew up with a divorced mother working three jobs during the depression, one in a book binding company, with no electricity staying in a shotgun house by himself each day at age four, until his aunt was able to take care of him at a later time. He worked and joined the army. He came from poor, poor and uneducated people. My husband had a similar background.

Same story, no savings, or very little savings.
I help my family too, your story is not unique and certainly not unique to my experience.

But we do have choices.

The fact of the matter which some people just do not understand it is that as sad as it is, our parents did not prepare for their future other than depending on social security. If that's their idea of retirement, then they did not look very far into the future. If they didn't, that's bad. But why is it every one else's responsibility?

Because you know what? There are people that DID look into the future. My grandmother was one. She scrimped and saved from 1927 until her death in 1991 and was able to supplement her social security. Others did the same, limited their family, they're the ones that didn't buy items on credit, they're the ones that prepared as best they could. There are no guarantees in life and I think that is my point, why should there be?

It doesn't make your family or my family bad people, it means that they made choices, which we do every day.

As to health issues, anyone that is able to participate on this forum is certainly smart enough and able enough to make money if they choose.

Blind people, crippled people, even mentally challenged people are able to make money when they apply themselves.

No one is mocking any disabilities; I have them I just don't use them as excuses.

No one should in this country.
Most people don't.


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

I didn't say or mean to imply that my story is unique. I certainly know it's not.

You said:
then they did not look very far into the future. If they didn't, that's bad.

There was no looking to the future. The future was making sure there was enough money to pay the mortgage and buy food this month.

It's easy to say people should plan for their retirement and I certainly agree that those that can should. My parents had no other options. They worked, they worked hard. There just wasn't anything left over

People like my parents are the ones I want helped in a just society.


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

The fact of the matter which some people just do not understand it is that as sad as it is, our parents did not prepare for their future other than depending on social security. If that's their idea of retirement, then they did not look very far into the future. If they didn't, that's bad. But why is it every one else's responsibility?

Because some of us truly believe that we are all in this together and that by helping those who can't help themselves we are giving back for whatever good fortunes may have come our way. It's just the right thing to do. There is so much wealth in this country and there is no excuse for any elderly person to live in poverty or to suffer cold or hunger.


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

"Because some of us truly believe that we are all in this together and that by helping those who can't help themselves we are giving back for whatever good fortunes may have come our way. It's just the right thing to do. There is so much wealth in this country and there is no excuse for any elderly person to live in poverty or to suffer cold or hunger."

And therein lies the difference.


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

Posted by frank_il z5Illinois (My Page) on
Fri, May 4, 12 at 22:14

"Because some of us truly believe that we are all in this together and that by helping those who can't help themselves we are giving back for whatever good fortunes may have come our way. It's just the right thing to do. There is so much wealth in this country and there is no excuse for any elderly person to live in poverty or to suffer cold or hunger."

And therein lies the difference.

*

No Mr. Frank, there is NO DIFFERNCE.

Pull up the scores of posts where I say I support helping people with taxes, as Jerzeegirl said, "helping those who can't help themselves we are giving back for whatever good fortunes may have come our way."

Note that is those who CAN'T HELP THEMSELVES that I SUPPORT tax dollars going to and I put that disclaimer in almost every post. I've put it in scores and scores of posts.

So there IS NO DIFFERENCE, FRANK.
Pay attention before you post something irresponsible like that statement, please.

As mrskjun and others have noted, we just don't believe in supporting people that continually make bad decisions and expect us to take care of them. We believe our tax dollars can be used in a different way to help people learn to help themselves rather than just forking it over to them.

Just because we don't agree with you as to exactly how those dollars are spent does not mean that we don't care and don't support helping those less fortunate, and it certainly does not take into consideration the time and money donated to help people, individually as well as through tax dollars.

Back to the subject and away from playing demonizing a poster, absolutely everyone with income should pay some amount in income tax in my opinion.


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

Jz thank you for saying it so well.

I would only add that those of us who have much enjoy what we have because of the efforts and contributions of those who have much less. I could never enjoy the lifestyle I do if there weren't people picking vegetables , waiting tables, cleaning office buildings, on and on...the least I can do is contribute some of my good fortune so that they may live their senior years in dignity with some small amount of comfort.


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Sweet Dreams

Well, Good for you Chase.

I do the same.

We can both sleep at night.


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can't help themselves

"Note that is those who CAN'T HELP THEMSELVES that I SUPPORT tax dollars going to and I put that disclaimer in almost every post. I've put it in scores and scores of posts."

So, how do you help the children without helping the "deadbeat" parents? Explain that.


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

So, how do you help the children without helping the "deadbeat" parents? Explain that.

*

I have some ideas, have to shut down tonight but when I have time I will share them. It's not easy.


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

Demi:

you cannot possibly ask this question:

The fact of the matter which some people just do not understand it is that as sad as it is, our parents did not prepare for their future other than depending on social security. If that's their idea of retirement, then they did not look very far into the future. If they didn't, that's bad. But why is it every one else's responsibility?

and follow it with this statement:

Pull up the scores of posts where I say I support helping people with taxes, as Jerzeegirl said, "helping those who can't help themselves we are giving back for whatever good fortunes may have come our way."

Note that is those who CAN'T HELP THEMSELVES that I SUPPORT tax dollars going to and I put that disclaimer in almost every post. I've put it in scores and scores of posts.

First you ask why it's your responsibility to support those who are living on a fixed income. Then you say you are all for tax dollars going toward those who can't help themselves. You don't see a disconnect there?

And just so you know what I am talking about, here is a story that I read several months ago and couldn't get out of my mind. It's about what happens when Congress cut the Home Heating Program.

Here is a link that might be useful: story


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

Jz thank you for saying it so well.

I would only add that those of us who have much enjoy what we have because of the efforts and contributions of those who have much less. I could never enjoy the lifestyle I do if there weren't people picking vegetables , waiting tables, cleaning office buildings, on and on...the least I can do is contribute some of my good fortune so that they may live their senior years in dignity with some small amount of comfort.

I second that.

It's perfectly clear why there's nothing but silence on Romney and his unethically obtained wealth.


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

"the least I can do is contribute some of my good fortune so that they may live their senior years in dignity with some small amount of comfort."

Demi, I don't understand how you can say that "you do the same" when, as stated clearly in other threads, you advocate for the disbanding of SS.

Do you mean that you do currently, through your taxes, but would like to see that end?


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

"It's perfectly clear why there's nothing but silence on Romney and his unethically obtained wealth."

Me and Romney: Two of a Kind.

I told you that I have some of my pittance of a retirement fund invested in the Vanguard Emerging Markets Fund

Check it out. I'm part owner of stock in 21 countries around the world. China, Russia, Brazil, India. I'm one of the big exporters of jobs that you all love so dearly.

I've spread it around. Basically it looks like I own some of about 900 different companies around the world. Companies that compete directly with YOU. I feel good that I can embrace all mankind, not just my own personal self interest.

I've got a nice collection.

I'm partners with the Chinese government: China Mobile

I own some of a Korean company which gets some praise even from Greenpeace, (sorta, anyhow). They edged out Hewlett Packard as the number one IT producer: Samsung

I've got a huge tax dodging company in Russia: Gazprom

My proudest investment so far is in Brazil. "Vale is also the corporation, in the world, with the most "contempt for the environment and human rights" and was named world's most evil company": We're Number One!!!!: Vale in Brazil

I make Romney look like a piker.

Hay


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

Chase:

"Demi, I don't understand how you can say that "you do the same" when, as stated clearly in other threads, you advocate for the disbanding of SS.

Do you mean that you do currently, through your taxes, but would like to see that end?"

*

What do you mean, you don't see how I "do the same?"

I pay taxes, Chase.
I give to charity.
I participate in activities that help people--young, old, ill, poor, young people struggling to stay out of jail and get back on the right track. Just because I have an opinion that differs from yours on how to make society better does not mean that I do not pay my taxes which is used in ways I do not always agree with and that does not mean that I do not give of my time and money to causes that I feel DO accomplish a better society in a more meaningful and lasting way than the government's idea.

That means I do the same things for people that you do.

Chase, I have NOT "CLEARLY" said that I want to "disband"
social security. I have said that the government should not be in the business of forcibly taking money from individuals to "save" for them in their old age, and squander on other things and make people dependent on the government to get their own money back.

I believe we never should have had social security as it has been set up, the house of cards will fall, and it is in fact looking like it will.

I have also said that everyone that has been made to pay money into social security should get the money as promised, that was the deal. That obviously does not mean "disbanding" social security.

I do not believe in means testing, changing the rules of the game because our government lied and stole the money and used for other purposes and does not want to pay the money back to the people that they took it from and promised they would pay.

People should learn to be responsible for themselves and not dependent on the government. The federal government has no business in my opinion being so involved in our lives cradle to grave. I believe we should have safety nets for emergencies and uncontrollable situations only, not for a lifetime of poor decisions and indulgence.

As to Swiss bank accounts, I couldn't care less what country anyone does business with as long as they are not defrauding the government of due taxes. If it's a legal shelter, then by all means put your money where you want. (of course I support a flat tax with no deductions)

As Hay has noted, many of us invest in other countries and that helps our country and people in other countries. It also balances a portfolio considering the economic mess and uncertainty in this country.

BTW Chase, I woke up this morning thinking what a mean comment about me not having "pals." Why did you feel compelled to do that? It was uncalled for and petty--I don't say things like that to you or anyone.


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

Jill, your story is much more common than you might think... with a few differences here and there. Not everyone is lucky enough, or fortunate enough, to climb to the top of Mt. Avarice... and not everybody wants to. That must just be the most unfathomable thing for the few to think about, eh? It's a concept that they'll never wrap their materially oriented minds around.

Meanwhile, the rest of us toil away at surviving the best way we know how. The statement that everyone has the same opportunities is the biggest lie ever told. I think, though, it may be hard to see the reality of that when a person is perched so high up...

The beauty of it all, though, is that death is the great equalizer. No one gets to avoid it. There is no choice. And the thought that a person is the richest one in that graveyard must just be the cat's meow. I wouldn't know... and I won't know. And I won't care.

It's greatly unfortunate, but some people within our society will never come face to face with reality.



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RE: Swiss Bank Account

As far as equalizers go, cruelty, hate and obvious resentment I suppose can be equalizers for those that need equalizers to justify their state of life to...who knows, who cares?

Such a pathetic attempt to elevate one's self by denigrating lives of others that are nothing but speculation and assumptions.

My advice is to be happy with whatever your circumstances are and not complain. If you do complain, do something about it other than complaining.

Peace to all, and happiness whatever circumstances you have, because love is what it is all about.


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

"Chase, I have NOT "CLEARLY" said that I want to "disband"
social security."

No, what you said was that after you got out what you and your husband had contributed you would not "cry" if SS was done away with.


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)))Swiss Bank Account

"cruelty, hate and obvious resentment I suppose can be equalizers for those that need equalizers to justify their state of life"

On that we can agree. Many hold certain resentments whether it's for those we perceive to have too much or for those we perceive take too much...it's all about justifying their state of life.

From where I sit there really isn't much different about how Jodi and Demi view life, not really.


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

demi, you've said this on many occassions:
I believe we should have safety nets for emergencies and uncontrollable situations only, not for a lifetime of poor decisions and indulgence.

But, there are a lot of examples of people needing help in their old age that never made a poor decision or indulged in anything.

I've shared my parents life to try and give you an example of this. My parents NEVER made a poor decision. They NEVER indulged in anything. Yet, they just did not make enough money to save for retirement.

What is your answer for that? Not everyone can make a lot of money. Not everyone can make even enough money to have any left over at the end of the month to save for retirement. Where do people like my parents, and everyone else like them, fall in your picture of how things should be?

Do people scam the system? Of course there are people that do that. That's wrong. But, IMO, the answer is not to remove the progams. Doing that would hurt too many innocent people.


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

Jill, I do not have a complete answer for that situation.

I know more people that fall into that same category as your parents than not, including my own family members.

I suppose my answer to you is the same I gave in another thread, and that is on principle, I strongly feel that we should reap what we sow in life. Let me ask you this exactly how much money from me, or Labrea, or any other poster here, do you want to go to your parents? Would it be enough for them to have Coca Cola or coffee, or just milk? What about enough money to buy a television if they don't have it or theirs breaks?

These questions are only asked to illustrate a point.
EXACTLY what type of life is "owed" anyone because they don't have enough money to do what they want or for what they need? Who decides that need?

Of course no one wants older people to go hungry or be in pain or not have shelter. Of course I don't want that.
Of course I believe in safety nets. But, where do we draw the line? From whom do we take the money? Who decides how much you or I or Labrea or anyone can do without and it goes to your parents or mine? Who determines what type of lifestyle they "deserve" because they didn't manage to save enough?

At what point does someone say, "well, your dad came home and sat in the recliner every night at 6 pm and watched Wheel of Fortune and went to bed" and the other person says, "my dad spent his time working two jobs and was never at home at 6 pm to watch television, much less see his family very much.'

And the man that worked the two jobs is supposed to give his money to your dad because he didn't save enough?

I'm not picking on your parents, only discussing them as examples and the situation.

My view is that when people know that someone else will care for them or take up their slack or compensate for their life decisions, they will sit back and let them.

Look what we already have after decades of Johnson's "great society." Entitlements.

So, my query is where do we draw the line between helping those that truly need help and just redistributing the work of some to those that made different decisions in life?

I'm not opposed to that in some circumstances, but not across the board and not just because someone doesn't have enough.

I'll let you know if I figure it out; in the meantime our country's leaders can't figure it out either.


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RErere: Swiss Bank Account

The way I see it the older generation that did not make enough money to save for retirement should be paid a living wage in their old age.

Of course they are not going to live the same life in terms of what they can do that someone that made a lot of money their entire life is going to live in their retirement.

They're not going to be able to go on fancy vacations. Have the latest, coolest whatever. Get new fancy cars.

But, they should never have to think about whether to buy food or medicine.

My parents have never been on a fancy vacation. They don't even know what that is. When we tried to send them on vacations when they were younger and could enjoy it, they wouldn't even allow us to talk about it.

But, if my brother and I were not fortunate enough to be able to pay for their retirement, they probably would have to decide between food and medicine.

And that's just wrong.


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

Jill, I help family too.

So I suppose the question is, should I help pay for your parents so you don't have to pay as much?

Should you help pay for my mother so I don't have to pay as much?

Then would it be a "wash?"

Who exactly decides whether your parents or mine did all they possibly could to keep themselves from being in the position of not having enough for "necessities?" Not only retirees, what about twenty year olds now that work and can't live by themselves? Single forty year old moms with children?

Of course, I think we all think that everyone should live in their own home, alone, and that is truly a luxury when compared to the rest of the world. Perhaps we should take our parents in, and perhaps young people should consider living in less desirable housing and share that housing with several roommates.

There are answers other than blanket redistribution.

Valid questions and no clear answers.


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

The way I am reading this is that you do not want people to starve, and yet you do not want to have to pay money to support them either. I don't think that we can have it both ways (I wish we could too).


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

Frank, I understand Demifloyd to say that she does not people to starve but she believes it is more efficient for her to make donations to the efficiently run organizations that she chooses whose sole purpose is to help those people rather than give it to the government that will waste a good portion of that money.


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helping the poor

I understand that, but the ugly truth is that people do not donate enough money to charities to feed the needy elderly and children. I think that in the real world governments have to step in and help. There are very few countries on this Earth that don't at least try to help their poor.


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The truth

Pretty much, because there are too many people that will allow others to take care of them if they know it's going to happen.

It's just like children--it's human nature to get away with what you can and what you know the outcome is going to be, or likely to be.

If you get pregnant and have no way to care for yourself or the child, you know that you're not going to be turned away for health care and the taxpayers are going to pay your hospital bill at the public hospital. You know that you are going to get free food, free innoculations for your child, support money every month, and usually a community "baby shower" to help you. The father will not be required to pay anything and you'll be the center of attention in your family, and so will the baby, at least for a few weeks.

If you're a kid with permissive parents and you get in trouble in school, you know your parents aren't going to punish you and that they will take up for you and nothing bad is really going to happen to you.

If you're fifteen and arrested for shop lifting you are not going to jail (unless there are already serious offenses on your record).

If you give everyone what they "need" they you're going to get more people living their lives such as they WILL "need" something.

It becomes more and more difficult to distinguish who is not living up their potential and who is trying and has absolutely no options left at all. Bad luck, or bad health, or being poor does not mean you can't take care of yourself. It means you have to use your brain, what health you have, to think outside the box if necessary and do what it takes to take care of yourself so that you're not dependent on someone else, now or in the future. We do have government safety nets and many, many private charitable safety nets for most every situation.

By far the most important factor is that I fear so many in this country do not understand the importance of realizing their potential and being as self sufficient as they possibly can. That is what I want to teach young people--to get out of "victim" mode when life happens to you, regardless of your circumstances of birth or life and get on with excelling, which most of us are quite capable of doing it we don't let people label us victims and if we don't make excuses.

The human spirit and ingenuity are in each one of us, which has been evident in this country's history, and I think it is but a shadow of a memory for many people.

We can all do better and need to be reminded it's not important what the other guy has. One can spend their time complaining about what others have and speculating about others' lives being miserable, unfulfilled and not as valuable and it does nothing to change their own circumstances, other than to seed resentment and pettiness.

It is not important what others have in life; it is important what we CHOOSE to do with whatever our life circumstances are, that define us, and ultimately defines what kind of lives we live--materially, physically, emotionally and spiritually.


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

demi...I hope you can hear the bravo and clapping from my home to your ear.

You always manage to tell it like it is but you know don't you that everything you just said will be dissected, flipped and put on trial.


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

Guess it's hard to argue with the truth, CW :)


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

"Guess it's hard to argue with the truth, CW :)"

It didn't address anything. It is just another "pep talk" on "personal responsibility".


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

If everyone practiced it there would be no need to discuss what the rest of us have to do to compensate for the lack of the practice of it.


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

I hear this so often here. How those who have taken personal responsibility for their lives must pay for those who haven't made good choices.

Does anyone have and real numbers on how much of each tax dollar goes to supporting those who need supporting because of poor choices vs tax dollars spent on infrastructure, defense, education and paying for the governmental bureaucracy both necessary and unnecessary.

For the sake of argument could we consider these programmes to be those that are paid for from the avails of those who planned well:

Medicaid and some part of medicare and SS, welfare, tax payer contributions to SS, food stamps, unemployment insurance, school lunch programmes and maybe some portion of education. I don't know what other programmes there are but anyone feel free to add or remove from the list.

My real question is what percent of tax dollars go to programmes for the "takers"


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

Here's a start, chase. 34% plus some portion of the 20% of spending on Social Security plus small amounts on things like education.

Here is a link that might be useful: Cbpp


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RE: Swiss Bank Account

I'm with Chase on this. There is only a certain level of benefit that can be drawn from personal responsibility as important as it is. Not everything good comes about because of making the right choices and not everything bad from making the wrong choice. Obviously when talking about breaking the law then yes you should be held responsible for doing the wrong thing but it is a mistake to apply this same rule to welfare including health care.

Incidentally CW continues this theme on the conversations side.


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