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Decriminilazation of marijuana

Posted by heri_cles 10 (My Page) on
Sun, May 19, 13 at 14:22

From a story in a local Evergreen Park, IL news source entitled
"Pot Possession Charge At White Castle"

(A certain man with a Latino sounding name redacted here for obvious reasons) ,"was charged with possession of marijuana, according to a report. Police saw a car in the rear parking lot of White Castle and reported smelling an odor of marijuana coming from it. When the car tried to leave, a cigar was tossed out of the window. About 0.7 gram of a substance that test positive for marijuana was found."

So a Latino kid got the munchies after smoking a joint and the Police are right on top of that. This arrest was so unnecessary and such a waste of resources and tax dollars. IMO, it is time to decriminalize pot possession in this country. The food he was about to eat there was probably more harmful to him and collectively to the health of the community than the pot was.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

well obvs.
I imagine there is some interest in the revenue resulting from decriminalising marijuana in Colorado (albeit for 'medical' purposes - I have 'medical' needs too).
If only they can formalise the taxation, I wouldn't expect to have to wait much longer - especially since it is totally laughable given the plethora of 'plant food' and other such (nasty but legal) highs currently entertaining vast swathes of our youth (and not so youthful) hedonists and cosmic explorers.

Rave on.


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

"The food he was about to eat there was probably more harmful to him and collectively to the health of the community than the pot was."

...and he wouldn't have had the munchies if he hadn't been smoking the pot, so he wouldn't have been at White Castle eating food that was "harmful to him" and if he had been sober he might have remembered that cops tend to hang out at White Castle.

And was he operating a motor vehicle while under the influence of (an) intoxicant(s)? "About 0.7 gram of a substance that test positive for marijuana was found."

How much of the pot had he already ingested?

"Stupid is as stupid does."--Forrest Gump's mother. Marijuana can be legalized, but being in control of a motor vehicle while under the influence of an intoxicant shouldn't be, IMO. Unless, of course, he had a sober DD.

Plus this guy was remarkably clueless, and you can't legislate stupid.


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

your point being....what?
driving while intoxicated is a bad idea (and illegal) - well obviously. Not quite seeing what you are saying here though. If he had been drinking alcohol, the legality involves intoxication and driving, right? Not simply owning, or even using.
Not too difficult to test for driving under the influence of drugs - which is surely an offence - not the ingestion of them.


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"If he had been drinking alcohol, the legality involves intoxication and driving, right?"

Intoxicated is intoxicated under the law. Alcohol is no more or less a bad boy that other drugs for operating a motor vehicle. My point? I wonder if the arresting officer(s) had blood drawn. A charge of OWI would almost certainly have been the more serious offense. .7 grams? In the example given, the motor vehicle is significant.

Wisconsin statutes: "346.63  Operating under influence of intoxicant or other drug.
346.63(1)(1) No person may drive or operate a motor vehicle while:
346.63(1)(a) (a) Under the influence of an intoxicant, a controlled substance, a controlled substance analog or any combination of an intoxicant, a controlled substance and a controlled substance analog, under the influence of any other drug to a degree which renders him or her incapable of safely driving, or under the combined influence of an intoxicant and any other drug to a degree which renders him or her incapable of safely driving; or
346.63(1)(am) (am) The person has a detectable amount of a restricted controlled substance in his or her blood.
346.63(1)(b) (b) The person has a prohibited alcohol concentration."

Could be Nyquil. The "safe driving" is the issue. just sitting in the car?

"(41) “Operator” means a person who drives or is in actual physical control of a vehicle.'


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Colo just finished up the legislative session, at the link is a summary of the laws are legalized marijuana.

They were unable to come up with a law re blood levels of THC and driving stoned.

So now, if you get pulled over, I'm not sure how they determine that you're driving while stoned, but since they can charge you already with something, I guess it depends on the guy who pulls you over and what exactly you were doing when you got stopped.

Like driving 2 mph in a figure 8 between a Dairy Queen and McDonalds for 45 minutes, trying to make up your mind.

Here is a link that might be useful: link


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

well yeah, I see what you are saying Elvis, but it is an equivalency issue - the offense was possession of an illegal substance, not necessarily DUI. And I am agreeing - driving, while off your head....on anything, is criminal. But Heri, and certainly myself, am merely arguing for a decriminalisation of possessing marijuana ('pot' - how quaint, we will be talking about reefers next).


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mmmmm, appalled by my terrible grammar....and I have not even partaken (much) yet.


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I gotta say, Campanula... just between you and I, I think there are a lot of people who have no clue what marijuana is even like or what it does. I could meet someone face to face, and I dare them to tell whether I'm stoned or not... as far as driving, alcohol is by far way more debilitating than marijuana could ever hope to be.

The guy weaving all the road is drunk... the guy driving too perfect, he's probably stoned. ;-)

The government should legalize pot across the board and be done with it... and not just for medical use. It's a HUGE waste of resources to go after some teen or adult smoking a joint. What a gigantic waste of money, time, and it's a real court clog to keep prosecuting people for having a little harmless fun.

Good grief... people would be so shocked if they knew who smoked it, how many people indulge, and how many within the professional world smoke it, too. What is the big deal... really?


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" I could meet someone face to face, and I dare them to tell whether I'm stoned or not... as far as driving, alcohol is by far way more debilitating than marijuana could ever hope to be."

LOL. There are a LOT of former stoners out there, too. As far as "who could tell,' that would depend if anyone's actually paying attention. Oh dear, 4:30 came and went, and here I was ripping out insidious weeds (the worthless ones) instead of adjusting my attitude.

I could tell. As far as this statement goes: "as far as driving, alcohol is by far way more debilitating than marijuana could ever hope to be."

I really hope you know better than that on some level.

That beiing said, I'm all for legalizing pot, with lots of caveats. And taxing it. One less import. Do we export it, though?


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  • Posted by vgkg 7-Va Tidewater (My Page) on
    Sun, May 19, 13 at 18:04

David, how is that new freedom working out for CO so far? Good to see a state engaging in an experimental freedom in progress and whether you set an example for the rest of us. You and the Oregonders got big kahunas.....or was it Washington, I always mix them up on issues....


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Vgkg, so far, nothing that I've noticed. What was funny was a few years back when they legalized medical marijuana, and overnight, out popped all these expert, high tech growers who knew exactly what strains, fertilizer formulas, potting soils, plant supports, wattage and what brands of lights, who had the best prices on CO2 and what precise amounts to pump into the grow rooms, air circulation, humidity, testing brix, precise conditions to dry and cure it, etc. Since the shops have to grow it on site, it was fun to watch these old abandoned store fronts swarming with hippy electricians etc getting them all wired up - took days, not weeks.

Potentially, up the road, we have a defunct ski resort named "Stoner" and there is some interest in opening that back up as a venue. But not for skiing.


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Pot possession is one thing and driving under the influence of pot if another thing. Driving under the influence of any form of intoxication is a criminal offense.

Here is a link that might be useful: Criminal Defence Lawyer Toronto


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

  • Posted by cait1 VIC Aust (My Page) on
    Mon, May 20, 13 at 4:47

The entire War on Drugs scheme needs to end. This govt would have gotten out of Afghanistan had it not been for the prolific and profitable opium trade.


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The stupidity of these pot heads is astounding.The generation that will rule one day...OMG what the heck has happened to the good old USA.?
Legalizing pot will come back to bite us in the "arse" as they say.


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I have seen stoned face to face and it looks just like intoxicated (I can think of several incidents, but my favorite is the "team" (not athletic) decided to bring the party to our room, whether I liked it or not, and dude ended up face planted on our floor. That was my best excuse to say, enough! Take him and get out!). I'm with elvis, it's illegal to drive after alcohol ingestion just like it's illegal to drive while intoxicated from other substances. He was behind the wheel. Isn't that the problem in the article? Surely doesn't convince me legalizing it would've helped. I'm not sure about other reasons yet, but so far, I'm unconvinced. Other reasons it should be ok?

Here's an excerpt that can get us going:
"There is no evidence that the depenalization component of the 1976 policy [Amsterdam's], per se, increased levels of cannabis use. On the other hand, the later growth in commercial access to cannabis, after de facto legalization, was accompanied by steep increases in use, even among youth. In interpreting that association, three points deserve emphasis. First, the association may not be causal; we have already seen that recent increases occurred in the United States and Oslo despite very different policies. Second, throughout most of the first two decades of the 1976 policy, Dutch use levels have remained at or below those in the United States. And third, it remains to be seen whether prevalence levels will drop again in response to the reduction to a 5-g limit, and to recent government efforts to close down coffee shops and more aggressively enforce the regulations."

In other words, legalizing it has no more answers than it did before. It's still a very ambiguous idea.

Here is a link that might be useful: Science Magazine article


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Much like alcohol, marijuana affects different people in different ways. Different types have differing effects, as well.

Drunk is hell and gone from stoned, though... unless you're young, relatively inexperienced, or want everyone to know "OMG, you guys, I'm sooo wasted!"... as in immature or naive.

I'm not suggesting it's wise to operate anything motorized while under the influence of anything. I'm just saying it's often very difficult to tell if someone has smoked, as opposed to the use of alcohol.

The whole idea behind a party, when it comes to much of youth today, IS to go above and beyond the limits of what we'd call "socializing", as in social drinking... the idea of having one or two drinks. Most youths seem to party to get totally wasted... or so it would appear reading about spring break, college parties, etc...

I think as an issue, it's beyond ridiculous to still be treating a little marijuana possession as a major crime, while there are so many other serious crimes that need the system... that require the prison space, and that deem having a felony record necessary.

Getting busted for having or smoking a joint should not be one of those things that marks your record forever or causes one to do actual jail time.


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I hear you, and during youth is not my only time of experiencing others who were high. The youth of today does everything in excess, but so do the adults of today. It's why so many live beyond their means. It overflows into the drug/alcohol area.

The question remains why do you think It should be legalized? I gave some of the myths and support/debunking in the above paragraph. Do you agree/disagree?


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Screw it, typed out a long, scientific response, but why bother. haters gonna hate. Just keep hatin', we're winning our rights and we won't stop fighting for them. And no, we won't settle for decriminalization, we want legalization and we'll have it nationwide soon, despite the ignorance that it's a worse health risk not to ingest cannabis than it is to ingest it.

Here is a link that might be useful: endocannabinoid system


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

di,

You can talk with me. I am interested. I've been against legalizing it, but I could be an advocate. Are the points made in article on target? I'm really wondering about their third point (why are they lowering the amount?!):

... And third, it remains to be seen whether prevalence levels will drop again in response to the reduction to a 5-g limit, and to recent government efforts to close down coffee shops and more aggressively enforce the regulations."

What is your guess as to the outcome?


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  • Posted by jomuir z5 detroit (My Page) on
    Mon, May 20, 13 at 16:15

' I'm with elvis, it's illegal to drive after alcohol ingestion just like it's illegal to drive while intoxicated from other substances'

you guys are comparing apples to oranges. Impaired by weed and by alcohol, quite different as far as driving goes. And violence, and belligerence, etc etc. Never heard of anyone seeing double from smoking a j, but plenty of folks do after too many drinks. One is much more likely to drive way too slowly after smoking weed than to cause a horrific crash & kill innocent people. If weed intoxication is so bad, and people have been smoking it for decades regularly, why don't we hear more serious crashes caused by it?

Decriminalize, not nec. to legalize.


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Impaired driving is impaired driving. Not apples and oranges. It doesn't matter if it's an allergy tablet that impairs the judgment. Driving slowly is also a huge danger. There's a reason for minimum driving speed on the interstate/freeway. If your argument is, "marijuana makes one mellow", that too, does not convince me! So what? Take a valerian and be done with it. It's legal and it "mellows one". But there's more to marijuana than the mellowing portion, isn't there? Which is why it's illegal. Should it remain illegal?

I'm into learning about decriminalization vs legalization, and good solid reasons for legalizing. I'm relatively open-minded about it. Not fully, though. I am leaning towards keep it criminalized.

I don't think I'd compare pot to sugar. Which also affects how one's body works or doesn't. But to say pot doesn't affect driving ability, well, that's not true. I'm ready to hear ideas, but not the worn out ones. One should skip the gateway argument too. That one is pure fallacy. So let's hear some new ideas, hit it fresh!


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Well for me, Rob, it is so obvious - firstly, I simply enjoy it - I find it a life-enhancing drug, a peaceable, contemplative and thoughtful substance which, just like growing my potatoes and blackcurrants, I can grow myself. So, I have great organic weed, a fascinating gardening project (and in many ways, some major horticultural research is coming directly out of the cannabis growing phenomenon - very talented gardeners). Since discovering e.smoking and vapourisers, my cup truly doth runneth over since I can now cancel out the far less acceptable habit of nicotine.Annoyingly though, I do now have a criminal record (so that's that for visits to the US).

As for driving - I only ride my bike.


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First of all, there are two types of marijuana... sativa, and indica. I believe sativa is the type that is technically illegal... though LE and Feds don't really differentiate when it comes to making an arrest.

There can be found equal amounts of information on the internet about marijuana and it's uses, each taking a side for or against the legalization of... and there's plenty of fallacy and fairy tales to be had, as well, if one wishes to take that avenue... along with an equal amount of truth... therefore, it does us no good to argue it. I say yea... you say nay. Doesn't change things one bit.

I believe that aside from it's obvious uses within the medical field, the plant is known to have a variety of other excellent uses... from making strong material to its high density nutritive value, and a plethora of products and uses in between.

If alcohol is legal... and we KNOW, without a doubt, that it causes health issues and is responsible for multiple deaths, then why shouldn't marijuana be legal? It doesn't have the same set of stats on health issues or death. It sounds more like a help than a hindrance to me.

I've said it many times... I'd much rather find out my teens were smoking pot, than find out they were drinking alcohol. Way too many youths are dying of alcohol poisoning, dying or being maimed in alcohol related accidents, etc...

Oddly enough, I've never heard of anyone dying in a pot related accident...

Just like everything else in the US, it will take time and information to change public opinion, but I do believe the tides are already turning... and they are turning in favor of legalizing marijuana.

"Marijuana is the third most popular recreational drug in America (behind only alcohol and tobacco), and has been used by nearly 100 million Americans. According to government surveys, some 25 million Americans have smoked marijuana in the past year, and more than 14 million do so regularly despite harsh laws against its use. Our public policies should reflect this reality, not deny it.

Marijuana is far less dangerous than alcohol or tobacco. Around 50,000 people die each year from alcohol poisoning. Similarly, more than 400,000 deaths each year are attributed to tobacco smoking. By comparison, marijuana is nontoxic and cannot cause death by overdose. According to the prestigious European medical journal, The Lancet, "The smoking of cannabis, even long-term, is not harmful to health. ... It would be reasonable to judge cannabis as less of a threat ... than alcohol or tobacco.""

Here is a link that might be useful: About Marijuana


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I've used cannabis every day for multiple decades - with occasional tolerance breaks - to treat my PTSD and depression - after disliking Paxil and Prozac. Turns out that cannabis is actually thee best way to treat PTSD according to new science and may lead to the first medical treatment for a mental illness that hits about 20% of vets and 8% of the general population

let me do this is multiple posts, to avoid wall o' text and too many links. Much of this is new research from top schools finally freed to investigate, after years of draconian research prohibitions.

Here is a link that might be useful: New Study On Brain's Cannabinoid Receptors May Lead To Treatment For PTSD


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Every higher creature on Earth has an endocannabinoid system inside of them, humans seem to average around 10,00 of them (all throughout the body, not just the brain), known as the CB1 and CB2 receptor sites. All mammals are natural stoners, producing the two key lipids anandamide and 2-AG constantly, regulating key parts of every mammals' metabolism daily. THC and CBD are the components of cannabis that activate the CB1 and CB2 sites, exciting them to produce various feelings that affect mood, appetite, sensation, sleep and emotional homeostasis body functions.

So those who ingest cannabis are tinkering with their CB1 and CB2 sites, often because of a sense on non well-being (aka out of emotional homeostasis). If you look at the pharmacopeia of America, there's over 100 million 'scripts for the top anxiety/depression/ptsd drugs, many of which have negative drug interactions with alcohol and other meds and have been implicated in quite a number of deaths (esp H'wood celebs). Cannabis deaths remain at almost zero throughout medical history, no matter what substance it is combined with, no matter what country or time period the study is done in. That's not a small thing, almost no other medicine is that benign.

Here is a link that might be useful: Functional role of the endocannabinoid system in emotional homeostasis].


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Cannabis has recently been shown to cause selectively induced apoptosis (programmed cell death) in both cancerous cells and some abnormal immune cells and to act as a tumor preventative. I'll post more than one paper for this and make that case as it's a big statement.

National Cancer Institute: http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/pdq/cam/cannabis/healthprofessional/page4

Journal of Biological Chemistry http://www.jbc.org/content/281/51/39480.short

Neither is cannabis smoking linked to lung cancer in any way.

http://www.clinicalpsychiatrynews.com/news/pain-and-addiction/single-article/marijuana-habit-not-linked-to-lung-cancer/73840afd2cca226b9e6a9ddc7cb0d039.html

Here is a link that might be useful: Cannabinoids for Cancer Treatment: Progress and Promise


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campanula, for some reason, and I'll have to think about why, your argument convinces me more. Probably because you're being pragmatic. And taking the one issue I find incompatible with the earlier "car" arguments, making it a spot where you're being responsible? I think.

jodik, I was looking for push back in the right way. That's it. There are some really good, valid reasons for not and probably for, allowing its usage. I'm still not fully sold on the fact it can have good effects when something else can also do that thing without being illicit. To me (and it could be the legal side of my head! and I may need to get past it), it's like red wine. Red wine can be beneficial. But keeping it under control doesn't work for so many, it's probably better to get what it offers from other avenues. And I would never set it on the table in lieu of other beverages at dinner time for the youngin. It's really hard for me to get past the same thing I said earlier. If you can get "relaxation" from valerian, why tap another source? Why subject yourself to something that can push mood altering too far. Because there are some valid studies that show it to induce anxiety, stress, etc. with long term usage. I realize not everyone will hit beyond reasonable, but we have to face facts, many will. It's why I am on the fence, and it is like red wine. It does have good, it does have bad. I think it should have to weigh in more on the good side. It does have some health stats to be sure, that cannot be ignored. And it brings me back to the third point I was asking di about. Why are they lowering the permissible amount and "cracking down"? Their words. In a country where it's legal. Last, and most importantly, the older I get the more I am of the mind, let people make their own mistakes. I enjoy alcohol. Not smoking (anything!). But to hear people, everyone is an alcoholic who drinks. It is evil stuff. No, it's not. Some people take it too far... oops, sounds familiar. So I see from where you're coming.

di, I hadn't heard the PTSD results; I am glad you are getting relief. Dang it! I tried to look up scholarly articles (to see more! :) and all it would give me is PTSD caused cannabis use. Legitimate, controlled studies could really help further the argument. Aren't they doing any studies some place it's already legalized? I did understand that anandamide is what is being regulated by cannabis, but isn't there anything else? No pharmaceutical, herbal supplement, etc. that can hit this target? Not that I am trying to deny usage; recreational use is one thing (which I've already addressed as reasonable with both just because I like it (camp) and because it really isn't that different than liquor use (Jodi)). Medical treatment options is another animal. There are long term use issues, and obviously you know this, since you took a break. But really, I wish you all the wellness. That's why I am asking. You may need a backup for later on and it could also be good to alternate? Something like that. I was never worried about lung cancer. If someone wants to destroy their lungs, whatever way they wish, it's their choice. I'm highly interested in the cancer treatment. I'll be looking for more. I wish they could replicate it into a pharmaceutical to control the outcome for people who were terrified of use, but still needed to overcome cancer.

I was married to someone who had quit (long term! many many years) after many many years of use. He seemed to be so very paranoid of everything. Was it his childhood? Was it the long term use? I mean, it's really hard to say which came first or if it was even a contributing cause. I don't know, we'll likely never know.

This post was edited by rob333 on Tue, May 21, 13 at 8:23


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

DRUNK drivers run Stop signs!

STONED drivers sit there and wait for them to turn green!

Actually three kinds of marijuana/hemp... sativa, indica, and ruderalis all of which are rather moot because of the various cultivars is use.

It is critical for the fate of this world that hemp be cultivated again. Hemp is the only biofuel that clearly returns more energy then it consumes.

As of late I've been using frankincense as a painkiller. It has some of the properties of medical marijuana and it won't cause you to flunk a drug test. I was drug tested twice last week and was negative for illegal drugs but positive for my prescriptions. There are times even my oxycodone won't knock the pain down and about 3 drops of frankincense works in about 15 minutes... granted they work better together then separate.

As for medical pot it does work on some kinds of pain. So does vanilla but vanilla is highly addictive when used as a drug (don't do it). Given the disaster our medical care has become there is good reason to make marijuana legal. Given that our government is corrupted by drug laws it would be a very good idea to make marijuana legal. A serious problem with forfeiture laws that allow the executive branch to fund military/police actions on their own. That is prohibited by the U.S. Constitution in Article 1 Section 8... reference the 24th Federalist Paper for Liberty's "greatest protection". Get cops off the weed!


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Hey Lyra! Good to see you. I'm glad there are alternatives, maybe they can help di if he never needs them.

It might be prudent for an overhaul of all medically considered treatments, be it herbal or pharmaceutical. That is one messed up industry and it needs some sort of intervention. It'll be interesting to see what transpires in coming years. I know the baby boomers' prescription prices are being outpaced by Medicare, and a cap on reimbursement is wanted by insurers... it's coming to head.


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Thanks for the good thoughts, Rob, but I'm not looking to change my therapeutic plan as it works fairly well for me and has for years, which is more than many ptsd/depression spectrum sufferers can say.

What I'm looking for is to be allowed to be an equal person in America. One not pre-judged by my use of a medicine for a chronic, life-threatening disease. I've experienced prejudice for decades, as have others like me: stoners being referred to as lazy and shiftless in the same terms great grandma used to refer to them darkies, cannabis users filling 10% of every jail cell in America, jobs denied to us unless we hide our use, denied social congregation in public, mocked on tv and in print, the whipping child of politicians looking to get elected and the state tells our parents and kids through billions of dollars of advertisements to fear and look down on us.

I want my civil rights. I want to be equal with you supposedly straight people. I'm tired of people taking one look at my eyes or noticing a slur in my speech and them mentally pigeonholing me. I plan to ingest cannabis today and just about every day of a very long life and I'm tired of being typecast, ridiculed and discriminated against for my choice of psych meds. I know there's millions others like me, especially amongst the Millenians.

And as far as the ptsd vets go, this country should be giving them all the DEA or local police confiscated weed for free. plus apologizing for the stress they underwent on our behalf and are re-living here at home. My son just had to put his buddy up on his couch for two weeks, an army sniper who did two tours in Afghanistan, got married, re-enlisted, had a baby, snapped and then went awol on all of his responsibilities. My kid ran with him in the a.m., gave him as much free weed as he wanted, took him out to socialize some nights or played xbox until late and then his buddy started to relax and reconnected with his wife and began the formal process to leave the army w/o charges being filed against him. Is it a miracle drug? Probably not, but it does have therapeutic uses that other current meds do not and its non-toxicity remains its selling point.


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Oh, I am with you on the equal person issue. I am not judging you, I promise. It's kinda hard through these crazy wires, but I really really don't. I assume pot is the same as many other drugs, to be used with care and only in certain ways. I would never, ever have taken muscle relaxers beyond bedtime when I had my back issues last September. Nor drive after drinking my fresh lime juice margaritas. I get it. I do. I'm not sure everyone gets it, so I was hoping we could a little discussion going. Maybe some have learned along the way. I hope they have learned that someone like me, a conservative, bible holding, constitutional rights upheld, kind of gal can still see there is value in what you want, even if I don't agree on all the points. And that there is grey there. There are myths and some realities. Things that should be weighed and thought about, not shooed under a carpet.

And I more than agree, more than you know, that our vets don't get enough help. Send them away. Away from the only home they've ever known. Their family with whom they grew up. Their family for their future. Teach them to destroy for others the very gifts they've left behind. The destroyed childhood I had. The destroyed fatherhood he had. We'll never know it again. It's one thing for daddy to hear bullets fly past his head, but to know someone aimed it at MY daddy, is quite another. You and I will never have what some still have and it was taken from us. We are different, the same, and I promise you, we are one. We deserve equal rights, but life doesn't always give it to us. I'm here for you!


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Very, very well said, Dicot... thank you for taking this discussion to places that I hadn't thought to take it. I simply see it as an incredibly useful plant that is illegal for all the wrong reasons, and has been since the beginning of its illegality.

This natural plant has so many positive uses, so many benefits, it's absolutely ludicrous to keep it illegal and keep the fallacies circulating that it's addictive, that it will cause you to murder and molest, that it's a "gateway" to other harder drugs, and on and on...

I personally know people who use it to control ADD and ADHD symptoms, chronic pain, nausea, and a host of other medical uses... and I know plenty of folks who just plain prefer it over alcohol or tobacco for recreational use.

I've read plenty about it's helping cancer patients in many ways, it shows great promise in controlling epilepsy and many other disorders and illnesses, and now that science can actually get to testing it the way they want, I know there will be many other medicinal and other uses found for this naturally occurring plant and its hybrids.

Unfortunately, it does not work as well as I would like for my own health issues, the level of chronic pain I deal with, but I don't feel I should be chastised, either, for enjoying something that doesn't harm me, or anyone around me if I do use it, as alcohol or tobacco use would.

I would agree, Dicot... the Federal government should be bending over backwards to help veterans with PTSD and other issues... but the world we live in doesn't work the way it should. It's greed filled, lacking in ethics, integrity, honesty, and so many other moral values. Profit has come to mean more than human life in too many areas, and we are nothing more than an expendable, disposable labor force and used as consumers.

How much money has been wasted on the eradication of marijuana, the prosecution and persecution of users, not to mention the imprisonment of those same people?

The history of marijuana is quite interesting... but it gets a little sinister as the US government begins a propaganda war on it, and suddenly we find state after state declaring it illegal... but prior to that, it was used for thousands of years in various beneficial ways...

Should we legalize it and put an end to the lies and stigma? Hell yes!

Here is a link that might be useful: Historically Speaking...


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

Dicot you are 100% correct about the civil rights issue.

Marijuana smokers are the victims of politics. Their rights were sold for political gain and continue to be a political bargaining chip. The 10th Federalist Paper if anyone is interested in the background there... a fine essay by none other then James Madison. Probably the most famous of those papers.

Sure people will die in accidents if marijuana is made legal. People will die if it is kept illegal. Easy with all the hard news the world has thrown at us to forget the violence that our southern neighbors have endured as a direct result of our "War on Drugs". If we don't get sane drug laws it is just a matter of time before a major drug gang shoot-out takes place. I would not be surprised if it involves machine guns, bombs, and hopefully not but probably chemical weapons. The history of our bloody crime ridden Prohibition era should serve as a warning. Alas, history will repeat itself as soon as people forget.


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

Hmmmm, now while the disease trope has some utility, particularly in moving on legislation, I am not willing to have to present myself as either a victim or a sufferer here and mainly wish to point out that I use cannabis because I enjoy it. For sure, there are numerous benefits but am very wary of being pigeon holed as exceptional because my use might have some medically approved connotations other than I JUST LIKE IT.

I guess little steps and sidling slowly into legislation might be the way to go.....but it would be deeply untruthful to dismiss the euphoric, hedonistic and enhancing affects of cannabis and to regard it as primarily a sort of organic anti-depressive.

And yep, I really like growing my own, harvesting it and having a little party in my head, with Mr Camps and various offspring (we keep in in the family here).


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

Campanula, I don't think it should matter WHY a person uses it... what should matter is the truth, why the public was lied to about it, and a campaign to remove the stigma and legalize it... for use as a farm crop, for the medical world, for recreation, for the many uses and products that can be had from it, etc...

I very rarely use it, but if choose to do so, I'd like to do so legally. I shouldn't have to hide using it, or obtain it through some clandestine meeting, or be labeled a "pothead" or a freak, or thought to be the lowest of the low, or tested for its presence within my system... in a rather hypocritical fashion, if you ask me, as those killing themselves through drinking, or drinking and driving, can walk into just about any store and purchase as much alcohol as they can carry in a shopping cart, and do so without a second thought.

I think back to the era of "Iran-Contra", Ollie North, and everything I've read concerning that cover-up... and it just seems over the top to keep such a benign recreation, such a multi-functional plant, on the same plane as other damaging "narcotics", illegal because of purposely ingrained government propaganda.

What we know now about marijuana, as opposed to what we were purposely fed about it, are night and day. And if we keep wasting federal funds and don't change tactics, the cartel war spilling over our borders can only get worse. Remove the illegal aspect, and you will remove a lot of the violence, I do believe. There will be no more underground market or territories to fight over.


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

Ohio has erected signs along busy highways to assist drivers in reporting alcohol, drug or deals.

Of course we don't condone impaired drivers, but we also know the war on drugs is a for profit game for a few enforcement agencies, plus the alcohol industry.

Here is a link that might be useful: Troopers Against Drugs


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

just a minor word of caution: "killing themselves through drinking". I don't want stigma either. Not everyone is an alcoholic. Please? I realize it's not necessarily beneficial, but it's not "killing me". That's a bit much. Doesn't mean I don't respect you, but just asking for the same courtesy for which you're asking.

:)


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

I'm sorry you didn't care for my emphasized wording, Robin... there was no disrespect intended or involved.

But the unfortunate truth is, statistics bear out an ugly picture regarding the abuse of alcohol in America... and while there's absolutely nothing wrong with it when used in moderation, those statistics show us the numbers of poisonings, deaths, liver and other internal illnesses as a result of heavy drinking, DUI's, etc... and the idea that one could drink all weekend, and show up at work on Monday morning completely hungover, but there isn't any stigma in that scenario... while there's a rather large one attached to smoking a little pot.

It's kind of like living with chronic pain due to injuries that can't be fixed, and living with the stigma of being a "drug addict", because one is dependent upon legal prescription drugs to live some semblance of a normal life.

Just off the top of my head, from what I've read lately... approximately 43% of the population has a family member who is an alcoholic.

Approximately 1 in 25 deaths is related to alcohol in one way or another.

Approximately 14 million people are addicted to alcohol, and millions more show symptoms of abuse.

Alcohol is the third leading cause of death in the US.

The unfortunate thing is, people who only drink socially or casually often get caught in the same gravitational pull of stigma as those who are deemed drug addicts but are actually dependent upon legal prescriptions, or those who use marijuana though it's actually not as our government advertised, and keeps advertising... and why shouldn't they?

Why should chronic pain patients or marijuana users be the only ones caught in that same vortex of ignorance from certain segments of our population or our governmental agencies?

To date, studies show that marijuana is less harmful than both alcohol and tobacco.

Every time a lineup of particular words are used for emphasis, is no reason to assume that that lineup is aimed at anyone in particular... it's just a set of words used to emphasize a point... that point being, alcohol is perfectly legal, socially accepted, and yet is far more harmful and dangerous than marijuana could ever hope to be.

It's nothing personal, Robin, so don't take it that way... I'm no more a drug addict or a pothead than you are "killing yourself with alcohol"... that should be obvious from the context of the wording, and of the thread in general.

If the shoe doesn't fit... and it obviously doesn't... don't try to jam in on and make it fit. Nothing was about you, personally, and I'm not sure how you could have read such wording in any other way than it was intended... simply to make a point.



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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

I realize it wasn't about me, per se. But eeeesh, there's no point in saying it. Sure, there are some that will do that, but is it the majority? One thing about your other thoughts, and I'm not trying to be right, it's just to be a consideration of the many things in this discussion, it might be that alcohol has all these statistics attached to them now because the studies are in the light from legitimizing it? Just a thought. In all the stuff to consider. The same may happen in time if the studies in cannabis were to go forward.

Cannabis does have harmful side effects. That part, I don't think is really hitting you. You're fooling yourself if you think it's 100% safe or totally harmless. I know you're smart enough to know it, but let me show you an excerpt from The Lancet:

"Summary of adverse effects of cannabis

Acute effects
•Anxiety and panic, especially in naïve users.

•Impaired attention, memory, and psychomotor performance while intoxicated.

• Possibly an increased risk of accident if a person drives a motor vehicle while intoxicated with cannabis, especially if cannabis is used with alcohol.

• Increased risk of psychotic symptoms among those who are vulnerable because of personal or family history of psychosis.

Chronic effects (uncertain but most probable)
•Chronic bronchitis and histopathological changes that may be precursors to the developmentof malignant disease.

•A cannabis dependence syndrome characterised by an inability to abstain from or to control cannabis use.

•Subtle impairments of attention and memory that persist while the user remains chronically intoxicated, and that may or may not be reversible after prolonged abstinence.

Possible adverse effects (to be confirmed)
•Increased risk of cancers of the oral cavity, pharynx, and oesophagus; leukaemia among offspring exposed in utero.

• Impaired educational attainment in adolescents and underachievement in adults in occupations requiring high-level cognitive skills.

Groups at higher risk of experiencing these adverse effects
•Adolescents with a history of poor school performance, who initiate cannabis use in the early teens, are at increased risk of using other illicit drugs and of becoming dependent on cannabis.

•Women who continue to smoke cannabis during pregnancy may increase their risk of having a low-birthweight baby.

•People with asthma, bronchitis, emphysema, schizophrenia, and alcohol and other drug dependence, whose illnesses may be exacerbated by cannabis use."

Here is a link that might be useful: The Lancet


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

I very much appreciate the support and kind words and agree that cannabis is no panacea or without side effects. I'd argue that casual recreational use is still medicinal, but that's a bit of semantics.. All I ask is that medical marijuana side effects be judged next to those of all the untreated or under-treated middle-aged Americans killing themselves faster than ever before (see link) and the overly-treated users or pharmaceutical/alcohol abusers, who's overdoses are almost as common as car fatalities as a cause of death now days. Cannabis does not kill at any measurable level

When doctors start admitting their failures to society on these two fronts and changing their prescriptions to match, I'll start trusting my physical and mental health to them more fully. My final thought is cannabis is not a pain reliever, it is a pain distractor. It is not a cure for anxiety/depression spectrum mental illnesses, it's a distractor from the diseases' symptoms. This separate but parallel method of action with analgesics can allow some MMJ patients to minimize their weed use (it's quite soluble in warm milk) while taking down their overall painkiller dosage, somewhat. But that doesn't mean that Amsterdam-style weed clubs wouldn't be 20x better for a neighborhood than a booze bar. Someday soon we'll have that.

http://io9.com/5919434/prescription-painkillers-now-the-leading-cause-of-accidental-deaths

http://www.mindthesciencegap.org/2013/03/25/how-safe-is-marijuana-a-toxicological-perspective/

Here is a link that might be useful: middle age suicide increase


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

and I would not be getting a criminal record for growing a bit of weed..............as a perfectly competent adult, choosing to grow an easily available plant (so what's the mealy-mouthed fudge about selling seeds) and ingest it in private......well I so resent that. I always suspect that it has something to do with not paying (anyone) for it (apart from the electricity co).


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

I guess I'll put my piece of news here: Yesterday L.A. City voters -- the 20% that bothered to vote either in person or by mail -- approved restricting the number of medical marijuana shops to 135, down from a current total of c. 1,700.

I voted against the proposition.

There's going to be a lot of business rentals available quite soon.


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

Another negative effect upon the local economy, Nancy... more's the pity. From what I understand, California is practically crawling with federal agents out to stomp on that evil weed and those who would try to build a small business as a farmer, or state sanctioned dispensary so patients can get their medicine.

I would completely agree, Campanula... though I'm quite certain it somehow hurts the profit lines of large corporations when the public grows and consumes anything that industry want total control over. I was just reading an article recently about a farm co-op busted for selling organic items of the unpasteurized kind, even though that's how the consumers want it.

Whether we're talking about pot, meats, milk, vegetables, herbs, fruits or other edibles, it would seem that corporations such as Monsanto and others want their slice of the pie, and all the patents and control to go with it.

Oh, we hear such stories as to how dangerous some foods are when not processed in some way or another... but I personally spent a good amount of time drinking milk straight from the cow, after refrigeration, and I never once had a negative reaction. In fact, it was so much more flavorful, and we could make our own products from it.

There seems to be a contingent of industries and corporations that don't want us to be self sustaining... or self medicating, in control of our own health, nutrition, or well being.

Robin, one must also realize that pot affects different people in various ways, and that there are hundreds, if not thousands of various strains that contain differing percentages of THC and other naturally occurring chemicals, meaning that the choices are practically endless, and the effects can be very different from one strain to another. .

People are not limited to whatever is smuggled over the borders or grown surreptitiously along some farmer's corn field any longer. The days of cheap ditch weed, source unknown, are over. And so are the days of having only one way to ingest it... as are the days of having to get a "high" from it in medicinal form. It's come a long way from the $20 bags of Mexican or $35 bags of Colombian of decades gone by.

But to listen to some officials talk about marijuana, it may as well be the devil's nectar, responsible for the fall of our nation... and the same old fallacies and propaganda are repeated, with not a word changed from Reagan and pre-Reagan era tactics.

Here are a couple of questions, quotes, and paraphrases which should make us think about the way our government has handled marijuana over the years...

"Can anyone honestly say they feel safer today because Tommy Chong, a comedian and actor, had been sentenced to 9 months in prison for selling pipes on the internet?"

"At a time when the threat of terrorism is real, wasting law enforcement resources (it costs approximately $25,000 per year to keep one person in prison) prosecuting and imprisoning nonviolent criminals represents a misguided set of priorities."

"It's time to stop arresting responsible marijuana smokers. Millions of Americans use marijuana; few abuse it. Arresting these otherwise law-abiding citizens serves no legitimate purpose; extends government into inappropriate areas of our private lives; and causes enormous harm to the lives, careers and families of the more than 500,000 marijuana smokers arrested each year in this country."

"The best way to prevent drug abuse is with honest, credible and factual drug education. Only in a climate in which marijuana is viewed from a public health perspective, instead of a criminal justice perspective, can prevention efforts be effective."

"The U.S. government’s own statistics show that over 75 percent of all Americans who use marijuana never use harder drugs, thus blowing the "gateway" theory right out of the water."

"Coffee contains 1,500 chemicals. Rat poison contains only 30 chemicals. Many vegetables contain cancer-causing chemicals. There is no correlation between the number of chemicals a substance contains and its toxicity. Prohibitionists often cite misleading statistic to make marijuana appear dangerous."

"There is no medical evidence that shows high-potency marijuana is more harmful than low-potency marijuana. Marijuana is literally one of the least toxic substances known."

So, my question is, why are we still fighting what is essentially a culture war left over from the 1960's and 1970's? Why are we wasting millions of tax dollars to eradicate marijuana, imprison its users, and keep its use heavily stigmatized?

Why aren't we investigating and prosecuting violent crimes, imprisoning violent criminals, and trying to eradicate the truly dangerous illicit drugs, such as methamphetamine, bath salts and other chemical based club drugs?

Why isn't our government happy that they've essentially got a new taxable item staring them right in the face, worthy of a sin tax that makes the tax income of cigarettes look like a mere pittance?

Marijuana represents an essentially new agriculture product, a new direction in the field of medicine, a much more benign recreational item, etc...

But then, who wants to buy a pair of jeans that take forever to wear out? Certainly not the corporations manufacturing jeans today. We're a use, abuse, and dispose of - kind of society today. And who would want a food item with high nutritive value? Certainly not those involved in our current food source, which feeds our medical and pharmaceutical industries. And who would want a good source of bio-fuel? Certainly not the petroleum industries of today.

There are a million and one money related reasons to keep pot illegal, or twist new laws in such ways that one can't really legally make a living farming marijuana. Kinda reminiscent of the Marijuana Tax Stamp of old, and the idea that you were damned if you did, and damned if you didn't... the same old legal circle jerk to maintain the status quo.



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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

  • Posted by vgkg 7-Va Tidewater (My Page) on
    Thu, May 23, 13 at 10:44

That list of pot's possible side effects posted above is almost as scary as the ones I hear promoted on TV drug ads. The one where an anti-depression drug may make it's user feel suicidal is nutz.


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

Except vgkg, The Lancet is a medical publication. It has studies referenced in the journal for each of the side effects if you want to click on the link. It's not propaganda.


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

Robin, every single one of those cites you mention come with a "may or may not", a "possibly", a "when mixed with alcohol", or other basic uncertainties.

And because there are other ways to ingest marijuana, it need never enter the lungs in smoke form. So, basically, much of what you cited either has no factual basis, or is still leaning on the side of uncertainty or fallacy.

Let me tell you a little story, if I may...

My husband used to smoke a 1/4 pound of herb per week from the time he was 16, and he continued up until the age of about 22, of his own volition and not because of any addiction. Not only is he NOT mentally impaired in any way, he consistently tests at genius levels.

The reason he quit was he simply didn't have the time to enjoy it anymore because he was working two full time jobs and running his own business on the side... none of them having to do with drugs, incidentally. When he stopped smoking pot, there were no withdrawal symptoms, no cravings, and he was still exposed to others who continued to smoke pot... some of them business owners or college educated professionals who still smoke to this day.

He was also at one time a weekend drinker, quite heavy. This was very hard for him to stop. He had no control over what he did while under the influence of alcohol. He was not in control of alcohol, it was in control of him. Alcohol got him in more trouble than anything else.

Today, he neither drinks nor smokes... though found tobacco extremely difficult to even cut down on... which, by the way, was his "gateway" with alcohol use second... if one actually believes in such a thing as a "gateway". He started smoking cigarettes at about age 11.

I'm not being prejudicial when I say that he is the most highly and widely skilled, intelligent, college educated man I've ever met. So, I find it very difficult to believe any of the negative "information" handed out when it comes to marijuana use.

Dicot, I sincerely hope you are correct in your assessment of the future of legalized marijuana. If I had a choice between living next to a bar, or next to a weed club... I'd choose the weed club, hands down. I would never have to worry about drunken brawls, liquid courage invoking small time thieves to rob me as I would be conveniently next door, or have to worry about some drunk driving through the front of my home, just to name a few possible scenarios.

It's incredibly easy to pick out the drunks in a crowd.... while it's a lot more difficult to tell who's got a little buzz on...


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

It's medically decided as to may or may not, based on studies. Not me. It is not my opnion, these are the results based on studies.

I really am leaning towards it is just like alcohol. I know you think alcohol in the way many think of pot, but really, not everyone gets the same side effects, so I really think they're just alike. Not needed, but enjoyed. And it's the person's choice.


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

  • Posted by vgkg 7-Va Tidewater (My Page) on
    Thu, May 23, 13 at 11:06

Never said it wasn't a legit list Rob, just that whether it be an illegal drug or a legal FDA approved drug there are still many risks to consider, particularly with many of the new concoctions being pushed out there on the airwaves. Aspirin is about the only one that seems safe, effective, and multi beneficial, but even aspirin has related problems with some users.


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

Yeah.

Just personal experience, I know tons of people who smoke/ingest MJ. Smart, capable, successful people. And I've known stoner losers.

But I've never once seen/heard of a person hitting another person with their body, hitting things with their car, being verbally or physically aggressive or otherwise damaged by marijuana. I've lost so many friends to drunk driving I can't even count easily.

To me, it's perfectly sensible to legalize MJ. It's not "just like" alcohol because alcohol is man made. Marijuana was given to us by the Gods.

Any substance has potential to cause harm. Just look at the potential side effects of a peanut...

It's $$. Follow the petrochemical trail.


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

How do you know how smart a person would be if they had NEVER ingested illegal substances?

Maybe it doesn't seem to lower their abilities, but think of what they might be without the dimming of one's mind.

Some studies have shown that regular, and particularly heavy use of marijuana reduces short term memory and can have long term detrimental effects on cognitive abilities.

I guess there is an acceptable bar for how may wits one thinks that they may need at any given time.

That's why I never drank alcohol when responsible for my children and certainly have never touched illegal drugs. .

You never know when there might be an emergency, you need to drive to get to a hospital quickly (it happened to me when my daughter severely cut her leg) or be at your quickest in thinking.

My children are and were too important to me to indulge myself when I might need to be at my best for them.


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

It's beginning to look that the fallacies on both sides are deeply entrenched. I did mean they're very similar in the whole scheme of legalizing. It has benefits. It has risks. It truly does. I can't believe I'm hearing the risks downplayed so deeply. Makes me sad.

___________
Silver I'm very sorry about your friends who are gone now.


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

I think that list of possible adverse effects of marijuana in Lancet sounds accurate. However, it is not like alcohol; if you listed the possible adverse effects of alcohol it would be much scarier. That is not to say that both of them don't have possible healthful effects!

I just read an interesting snippet about Cannabis the other day in Sierra magazine. They were interviewing Jane Goodall who has written a new book on plants, called "Seeds of Hope: Wisdom and Wonder from the World of Plants". She said "Hemp..is actually the most amazing and magical plant. It's ridiculous to ban people from using it. It has nothing to do with marijuana at all. And it can remove nuclear waste from the soil. You just grow it, and you cut the poor thing; it's done it's work."

Just another amazing thing about this plant!. Our government and corporate overlords are dysfunctional and corrupt for prohibiting it.


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

"Yea, but yours is worse!"

Not my favorite argument. Can't we just leave both choices alone?


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

"How do you know how smart a person would be if they had NEVER ingested illegal substances?
Maybe it doesn't seem to lower their abilities, but think of what they might be without the dimming of one's mind."

Dimming?

How about Enlightening?

You've never tried it, so how would you know?

I can't remember just exactly who it was, but some super nerdy computer guru type, like Jobs himself and his tripping days, said something about another nerdy computer guru type who wasn't quite up to par that "he probably didn't do enough drugs when he was younger".

I've seen a reported study in which they found that kids who experiment with drugs are "better balanced" or some words to that effect.

Musicians, many of them, probably would never achieve the wonderful sounds they produce without drugs.


Ever been to a Grateful Dead concert, Demi?

Too bad if you missed them.

Hay


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

We can't leave both choices alone, because one choice (alcohol) is legally sanctioned by our society as an "acceptable" drug and it is protected and promoted due to corporate financial interests, thus I believe the true harm that this drug does is under-rated. The other choice (Cannabis) has been legally prohibited and falsely vilified, again primarily due to corporate financial interests, and thus the true harm has been over-rated.

When the facts about both are completely and openly presented to society, then we can let people make their own choices.

Hayday, I heard that Jobs never liked Gates (if that's who you're talking about). He carried a long term grudge towards Microsoft because they stole the Mac GUI interface. Although ironically I heard that Apple originally stole the GUI interface from Xerox.


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

  • Posted by vgkg 7-Va Tidewater (My Page) on
    Fri, May 24, 13 at 10:31

Ah-Ha! So Pot smokers are a bunch of thieves!

just another side effect? nyuk


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

"We can't leave both choices alone, because one choice (alcohol) is legally sanctioned by our society as an "acceptable" drug and it is protected and promoted due to corporate financial interests, thus I believe the true harm that this drug does is under-rated. The other choice (Cannabis) has been legally prohibited and falsely vilified, again primarily due to corporate financial interests, and thus the true harm has been over-rated."

Poor Corporate Financial Interests. They just can't win no matter which side they're on.

Hay


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

terrene, I'm just talking about on this board. Like a brick wall! It begins with us. Either you let me make my choice without falsely villifying me, or you don't. You want that consideration, give it. Right? What's sauce for the goose. Or not. But don't think some won't find this hypocracy when you don't give the consideration for which you're asking.


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

I think the biggest argument for legalizing is that your little precious kiddie is going to be smoking it no matter what.

Question: Would you prefer your Precious to be smoking some weed that he bought on the corner of some poor slum neighborhood which may or not be Marijuana? May or not have been sprayed with something to "enhance" it's effects? Maybe sprayed with some banned pesticide while it was growing to kill the spider mites?

Or grow a few plants up behind the shed?

Your Precious, your call.

Hay


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

  • Posted by vgkg 7-Va Tidewater (My Page) on
    Fri, May 24, 13 at 11:11

To add to Hay's observation. It's a can be "gateway drug" because those same scumbag pushers on the corner "push" other dope on the side. Their only concern is making money and increasing customer demand, even giving out free samples of the worse addictive krap ever concocted.


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

Rob, I don't know why you think I am falsely vilifying anything or anyone? I am primarily interested in 1) truthful and factual information be made available to the public about both alcohol and Cannabis and 2) that prohibition of Cannabis be lifted (which IS happening) so that a free society can take advantage of the properties of a very useful plant for the benefit of the people.

As for these two very popular intoxicants, I have been known to enjoy both. :)

This post was edited by terrene on Fri, May 24, 13 at 13:30


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

I have to agree with Terrene... if the public doesn't get the straight talk... no pun intended... from official authority, how can we know which is the better choice for us, as individuals?

So far, we know for a fact that the government has outright lied to us all regarding too many things to list, the least of which are the harmful effects of marijuana, alcohol, tobacco, certain food items, certain chemicals sold, and on and on... and the lies continue because of that money trail, because of the continual kowtowing to special interests, etc.

I, too, am saddened by the loss of your friends, Silver... we, too, have experienced the loss of friends and acquaintances due to alcohol. It's an all too common experience for too many people, I would have to say.

For once, I find myself in agreement with Hay... how did that happen?! ;-)

I think what a few of us are getting at is... the choice to grow and ingest marijuana shouldn't be prohibited by law so that other special interests and industries can control the flow of money into their own coffers.

What logically thinking group of persons would keep two substances completely legal and accepted by society knowing how harmful and dangerous they are to the population, while at the same time keeping one substance that solidly trounces the other two in the benefits department illegal? How does that make any sense, whatsoever?

And even if you don't think, in your own opinion, that marijuana isn't that harmless or beneficial, why would you be against its legalization so those who do not feel as you do can gain from its benefits as they see fit?

It's not like anyone would be forcing anyone else to use it.



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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

I'm neither dying or killing anyone. Saying I am because I drink liquor is false. Pot does harm. Can't say it any plainer.

Then say it WITHOUT comapring it to liquor. Some say they don't compare and then some say liquor is so much worse. Can't pot stand on its own merits?


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

Yes it stands on its merits. Cannabis is complex plant with uses on multiple levels. There are numerous uses of the plant fiber as well as the seeds. This plant was grown by the founding fathers of the US as well as the US government encouraged citizens to "Grow Hemp for Victory" during WWII because people needed important things like rope, cloth, paper, and food!

Many people enjoy casual use of the marijuana flowers in various forms for its psychoactive properties as an intoxicant or stress-reliever, religious or cultural rituals, and on a more serious note, relief from a meager and oppressive life.

This plant also has proven medical benefits for people with serious and debilitating diseases like cancer, AIDS, multiple sclerosis, anxiety disorders, chronic pain, etc. There is enough evidence, and enough states who have legalized medical use, that even people who are morally opposed to the "casual" use of marijuana can more easily concede that it works as a medicine.

And we haven't explore all potential uses of this plant because scientific research on the Cannabis genus has been repressed in the US for years.


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

"And we haven't explore all potential uses of this plant because scientific research on the Cannabis genus has been repressed in the US for years."

I think the research goes on in the scientific community. Maybe we don't need so any guinea pigs, though.

I don't have anything much against people using pot. All my life, I've somehow found myself in close personal relationships with potheads. Which is wierd, since I don't use it. It's true that regular pot users don't tend to be violent, which is good. In fact, people with a righteous pot buzz don't react too quickly to anything at all. Which is good when you're ready for a nap. I've always been encouraged by these close people of mine that if I just adjusted by attitude the way they did, I would understand. Maybe they're right. If I could get over my aversion to the smell, maybe.

Pot & booze really are dissimilar, but I think the reasons for using them are about the same.


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

Posted by haydayhayday none (My Page) on
Fri, May 24, 13 at 9:58

"How do you know how smart a person would be if they had NEVER ingested illegal substances?
Maybe it doesn't seem to lower their abilities, but think of what they might be without the dimming of one's mind."

Dimming?

How about Enlightening?

You've never tried it, so how would you know?

I can't remember just exactly who it was, but some super nerdy computer guru type, like Jobs himself and his tripping days, said something about another nerdy computer guru type who wasn't quite up to par that "he probably didn't do enough drugs when he was younger".

I've seen a reported study in which they found that kids who experiment with drugs are "better balanced" or some words to that effect.

Musicians, many of them, probably would never achieve the wonderful sounds they produce without drugs.

Ever been to a Grateful Dead concert, Demi?

Too bad if you missed them.

Hay

*

Nope, never tried it.

The few people I've been around that were under the influence of marijuana didn't act all that smart--less smart than they were when they weren't under the influence.

Never been to a Greatful Dead concert.

Diana Ross, Tom Jones, Marvin Hamlisch, Sarah Brightman, Itzhak Perlman, Yo-Yo Ma.

I didn't need to smoke dope to enjoy those artists.

Wish I had attended a CCR concert, though.


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

"Wish I had attended a CCR concert, though."

They're still around: it's not too late. I saw them in 2009; they're still good ;-)

Here is a link that might be useful: CCR 2013 Concert Schedule


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

Thanks! I thought one of the Fogertys died.

I may have to make a CCR concert!

Oh, I did also see the Steve Miller Band.
Some others, just can't think of them.

I think there were people smoking dope at that concert!


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

"They're still around: it's not too late. I saw them in 2009; they're still good ;-)"

You might want to look at that name a little closer.


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

•Posted by frank_il z5Illinois (My Page) on Fri, May 24, 13 at 23:43

***"They're still around: it's not too late. I saw them in 2009; they're still good ;-)"***

"You might want to look at that name a little closer."

Revisited yes. If you don't believe they're great, read some reviews, Frank. Don't take my word for it :-)

Demi, John Fogerty's not with them. he is also still performing, though. And is great. ;-)


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

"I didn't need to smoke dope to enjoy those artists."

Perhaps, but since you've never tried it, how would you know if you wouldn't have enjoyed it even more if you'd been stoned and hallucinating with acid?

After all,

"How do you know how smart a person would be if they had NEVER ingested illegal substances?"

goes both ways.

It's not important to me that you become a stoner and, knowing your personality, I suspect you'd really, really hate the whole experience and probably wouldn't be able to see any pleasure or benefit in it at all. I just want to point out that there are people who have a whole different experience and perspective with it.

Hay


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

Robin, I never said YOU were killing yourself with alcohol. I don't know where you're getting that idea from. I believe what I said was, and I quote:

"... in a rather hypocritical fashion, if you ask me, as those killing themselves through drinking, or drinking and driving, can walk into just about any store and purchase as much alcohol as they can carry in a shopping cart, and do so without a second thought."

I'm not understanding where you're getting the idea that I am talking about YOU, or about anyone in particular. Please explain the perceived personal nature of the very general statement I made.

How can one not compare alcohol to marijuana, or to tobacco, for that matter, when making a case for the legalization of marijuana? Two of those things are legal, and KNOWN to cause disease or death, while the other has no such positively known statistics attached to it, yet it remains illegal in most places. All of those things are used for recreation.

On the flip side, bonded liquors are not medicinal, and tobacco is not prescribed by the medical community. Both of those items come with warnings attached, and lengthy negative statistics.

Marijuana can certainly stand on its own merits... but not if the public is lied to about it, and it's kept at taboo status.

If I'd never taken a drink in my life, or smoked tobacco, or ingested marijuana, I'd have no leg to stand on in a debate, and no dog in the fight to legalize or prohibit anything. But since I have experienced all three at various times, and I have seen the medicinal benefits of marijuana with my own eyes, I have a little bit more inside knowledge about the effects of all three substances. And of the three, I'd choose marijuana without a second thought as THE one out of the three to accept socially and legally.

Much like the issue of abortion, and others, it falls to the individual to decide whether or not to use or do anything. It's a choice, much like any other. And much like religion, no one is trying to bring converts into the fold. One either decides to use something or do something... or one decides not to.

It's really that simple.

It just doesn't make rational sense to keep pretending that marijuana is some demon plant responsible for the downfall of America, only used by criminals or crazy people... when in fact it's one of the most useful plants on the planet, in its many forms, and deserves a legal place in agriculture, medicine, product manufacturing, the food supply, and as a personal recreational product... just to name a few uses.


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

It's not important to me that you become a stoner and, knowing your personality, I suspect you'd really, really hate the whole experience and probably wouldn't be able to see any pleasure or benefit in it at all. I just want to point out that there are people who have a whole different experience and perspective with it.

Hay

*

You make a point, Hay.
You're right.

I get high enough on life just like it is--the gifts of music, smell, touch, taste, sight are enough for me without ingesting drugs.

Another anology is having a personal experience with God--if you haven't tried it, don't say it doesn't exist and that it doesn't make life better.


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

Like Demi, Ive never tried anything except for the very rare drink. For a variety of reasons I decided early on in my youth that I, personally would probably be better off without the experience. However, I dont have a problem with those that do and remain curious to this day about how it feels and if I would even like the feeling. The rare times Ive needed to be on a strong pain medication, I hated the experience - I felt fuzzy, very unsteady and wondered why anyone would actively choose to feel that way for fun. To me it felt awful.

I believe we should have made marijuana a legal substance YEARS ago - decades ago. Grow your own in your back yard next to the corn rows and across from the tomatoes, why should the city or govt care? Is anyone being carted to jail for making their own wine or beer? Does anyone care if people do? Open up the prisons and let those on drug convictions loose. Use all that war money spent on the so called war on drugs to help with the homeless and those who desire a drug rehab. Think of the social good the drug war money could do to help the citizens of this country.

Then stop the other war, pay THAT bill off and then set aside the funds necessary to help every single vet with whatever help he or she might require. Including grocery money, car payments, mortgage payments if post traumatic stress is keeping the vet from being well employed. Lets put our money where our e- mails have been and actually support those vets with whatever it is they might need. They served us when we declared we needed them, we now need to serve them.

So very much good could be done with the money we spend on all wars. The only real wars I ever want to hear our country is involved with again again is the war on poverty and the war on our lousy education system. Now those are a couple of wars I could really get behind.


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

" without ingesting drugs."

Tea, coffee? I'm loving my Muton White right this very minute. Sets me up for the whole morning.

God willing and it finally stops raining, I'll head out to the sunshine and see if I can't manufacture some Vitamin D in my little chemical factory called my body. I hear Vitamin D is good for helping to keep me happy. The exercise itself releases some pretty powerful happy drugs into my system.

Bring this thing you call God around to me and I'll take a dose or two. The Psych Doc told me it's healthy to be open minded and willing to try new things.

Hay


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

The exercise itself releases some pretty powerful happy drugs into my system.

Bring this thing you call God around to me and I'll take a dose or two. The Psych Doc told me it's healthy to be open minded and willing to try new things.

Hay

*

;) You already know God.

You know those good feelings from exercise?

God.

It's all God, good and bad.


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

I, too, am enjoying... at this very moment... a rather large dose of my Free Trade morning coffee...and this enjoyment will take place repeatedly throughout the day. I also set myself up with a decent dose of iodine, and the few other supplements I take, not to mention my regular doses of medications, which do not give me any sort of "high", merely masking or taking the edge off my pain level... though I do not foresee any sunshine in today's forecast.

Marijuana is nothing like alcohol, nothing like painkillers, and nothing like any other substance I've ever ingested. Neither is it anything like our government agencies have tried so hard to portray through propaganda.

To me, it's a peaceful calming, a release of stress and tension, and there's nothing foggy or debilitating about it.

I would equate it to a nice soak in hot tub, or a relaxing experience of some kind. I really don't know how to describe the feeling accurately. It's not scary, at all... though some people do claim to feel a bit paranoid... but it's my feeling this has more to do with its illegality and taboo status than anything else. One is doing something one is not supposed to do.

Personally, I enjoy it. I think a lot has to do with quality, the strain, what form it takes, and how it's ingested.


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

It's the generalization I'm just as sick of hearing.


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Um, I thought prohibition eventually came to a halt because it just became harder to find a jury willing to convict their own friends, neighbours relatives and so on.....so yeah, I expect this is what will happen to the marijuana rules. Personally though, this is merely the tip of the iceberg and will probably only benefit a few white middle class stoners - I would also prefer to see ALL drugs decriminalised since there is a definite class and race divide which is being largely ignored by concentrating just on cannabis.
As a enthusiatic if irregular smoker of crack (before the price rose and the quality dipped), I can attest to being able to maintain both a slightly genteel drug habit and full-time exhausting employment and parenting without losing mental or physical capabilities. However, while managing to walk on both sides of the street, as it were, I would rather not have to keep on confronting the many inequalities around SOME drug use (that sanctified by those in power) while looking the other way when many, many young people (and quite a few not so young) are pulled into the only profitable game in town - illegal drug trading with the violence and degradation involved in the narcotics trade.
Whichever way you care to regard this issue - there is no doubt that a horrifyingly large section of society is being sacrificed on some ideological altar - a sort of look the other way because hey, who cares about a few crack-whores and welfare queens.


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

I think if the laws change to reflect not only the scientific testing and medicinal use, but also the growth and use by private citizens, it would benefit a lot more than your average middle class white users. Personally, I don't think some people are aware of just how widespread the use really is, and has been for some time.

"I would also prefer to see ALL drugs decriminalised since there is a definite class and race divide which is being largely ignored by concentrating just on cannabis."

I would agree. I think if people could actually access the help they needed in the form of real rehabilitation... as opposed to prison or probation... in other words, to swap where the funding is spent... it would go a lot further to help those who truly wanted the help, and our systems wouldn't be so clogged by the unnecessary.

When something is accepted and not a huge taboo, and education and prevention are widely available, there's no curiosity or need to open Pandora's box, so to speak...

I would also agree, Campanula, that the public have been generally given the information government agencies want them to have... which is usually either half the story, or the wrong story. Almost every drug is portrayed as something positively horrifying that one addicts to upon the first use, and from that first use forward, all lives tumble into the gutter... when that's not the truth, at all.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that all drugs are benign, but I do think we, the general public, are lied to on a fairly frequent basis, or at least not told the whole truth. We're only shown one "picture" of who uses what drugs... but for benefit of whom, exactly, is that singular view?

And then, I think we also have to look at WHY America is such a supposed nation of users and abusers of any and all drugs, and how certain ones have been introduced and have had devastating effects on certain socioeconomic groups. There's a lot of information to study and cross reference, if one wished to look at the bigger picture with any sort of honest interest and open mind.

Personally, I think those countries that have legalized everything, or treat it more that way, and spend their funding more toward the rehabilitation or safe use (the issue of clean needles, condoms, medical tests, health care, etc) have done a decent job of handling the issues without increasing the problem. In fact, I believe I read somewhere that usage had actually decreased, surprising to those who gathered and looked at the data.

I think we'd be better off reassessing the way we handle cannabis and other drugs. But, aside from supporting the groups working so hard to promote legalization and voting as necessary, there isn't much we can do but wait, while public opinion changes, more information is released, and legislation finally catches up to the 21st century.


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

Thanks Rob, it's all pretty far in the past. These were kids... high school and in the few years after.

I drink alcohol. And I have my medical marijuana license. People and animals have been ingesting things to make them feel different for a really long time. Sugar, I think, very well may be the first gateway drug... but then, one must also consider mother's milk;)

You're right Demi, I will never know how smart they would have been. Just like no one would ever know where I would be had I married the tall, dark, handsome foreign man who first asked me.

We just get one walk down the path. I know people who do not change their behavior with caffeine - or processed foods.

What kind of a person would you be had you never eaten processed sugars or caffeine? ;) lol. I'm kidding... kind of.

My mother never gave me processed foods and hit the roof when my family members gave me a coke at age 4. GATEWAY! That stuff is toxic and addicting. My aunt, if she does not get her liter of diet coke daily, gets horrible migraines.

Truth is that people have different reactions to drugs and food and not everything is good for one person. Milk is horrible for most African Americans but that doesn't mean it's bad for everyone. I know people who smoke one hit and have a terrible experience and prefer to drink. I know people who can't drink, and smoke instead. I know compulsive yoga people who get their high/relaxation from their sport.

Truth is, the public was lied to about marijuana. The truth will out.

And OH it's so true (Hay, was it you who said...) that growing a plant in the side yard is safer than buying off the street. For so many reasons.


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

Campanula: "As a enthusiatic if irregular smoker of crack (before the price rose and the quality dipped), I can attest to being able to maintain both a slightly genteel drug habit and full-time exhausting employment and parenting without losing mental or physical capabilities..."

Okey dokey. Lots of cred there. And the medicinal qualities of crack are yet to be explored by the scientific community because of the unfair prejudice against this r drug, I'll bet.

Whoa.


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

Silver, I agree with everything you've said.


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I guess it is the difference between legalisation - which is to imply that drugs are some kind of saleable entertainment to be explored at will......or decriminalisation....which is to accept that society has an issue which may better be dealt with outside of the punitive, unhelpful criminal justice system. Frankly, having got a criminal record many years ago, in some ways it has blighted my life and in other's, I just tend to think 'what the hell - damage done'. There has been little motivation to mend my druggy ways, that's for sure.


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

AND... I wanted to add that some people have addictive personalities/whatever you want to call it. I know people who cannot have "just one" of anything. Not just one beer, cookie, ride on the merry-go-round, one night stand.

I was out this weekend and was offered candies several times. Even though it's one of my favorites (salt water taffy) I didn't want any, and declined. Several times. I ended up not eating any the entire weekend. Other weekends I would have eaten the whole bag :)

I have a hard time with moderation. I'm very happy I can moderate to the degree in which I am able.

Camp, I have known people who have done crack/crank and maintained their high-powered lifestyle as well. And others who try something once and end up spiraling down immediately. I don't think anyone is capable of maintaining that kind of abuse to their body long-term, but for sure someone can eat a fast-food meal a day for a really long time before it has a negative effect.

Me? I can eat fast food very seldom before I get sick. I tried the white stuff once and thought I was going to die. I don't do well with man-made lab drugs at all, they make me wonky.

"I guess it is the difference between legalisation - which is to imply that drugs are some kind of saleable entertainment to be explored at will......or decriminalisation....which is to accept that society has an issue which may better be dealt with outside of the punitive, unhelpful criminal justice system."

Here's how I really see it. Parents have the responsibility to make sure their kids get the healthiest start possible. Don't live near a major freeway (they've proven it increases autism and cancer risk), eat as healthy as you can, be active, volunteer, get educated, etc.

Once a person is an adult I think they have a responsibility to themselves to learn/explore/try the things they want to make them the person they want to be.

In the privacy of the home, one should be able to ingest what they like, have sexual relations (with adults, not goats) if they like, etc.

I know one woman who both smoked pot and was a lesbian. She is the comptroller at a major hotel chain. She didn't "out" herself with either of those, but I assure you she was quite competent despite her deviant ways.

Could she have been comptroller at TWO hotel chains if she had not smoked pot, or if she had a husband standing at her side? Maybe.

Her life.

Oh.... Rob... I forgot until this very moment as I was thinking about the drugs on the street vs those in the backyard; a childhood friend's little brother died last year. He had gone to a party, taken a pill and died. Right there. Under 22 years old. TRAGIC. Don't take pills from strangers, kids.


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

(((Silver))) that is so awful. You never know, even if it had been regulated it might've hurt him anyhow. The possibilities of that sweet life, are gone. That's bad no matter how it happens.

The ingredients used to make meth, oh my goodness, I cannot believe anyone would put that stuff in their bodies on purpose. Much less all of them, on repeated occasions. I'm not sure what I'd decrminalize, but it wouldn't be all of the illicit stuff.


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

Yep Silver, we really do need to have some urgent dialogues because I can only agree that the curtailing of a young life was indeed tragic. I know knowledge and experience is not some kind of all-round panaceae but being able to talk freely, without complete prejudice, is surely a hall-mark of a civilised and mature society while hiding unpalatable truths (people have dark secrets and hidden inner lives) gets us nowhere near any sort of solution (and I would never be so crass as to believe that drugs should be freely available to all and sundry since the evidence of failed lives has been all around me for 40 years or so). However, way back in the 70s, the 'British' system was widely emulated until a pervasive political ideology decided that drug users were pond scum, criminals and deserved punishment. The bedrock of this system was to provide safe maintenance, treatment (if required), rehabilitation and understanding without pathologising or criminalising the issues involved in something which has evolved alongside humankind for many centuries - curiosity and a desire to push boundaries and explore the human spirit. Drug taking is not some new, deadly phenomenon. Still, many words have been written and spoken on this subject and yet here we are - lives still being wasted while policy makers creep fearfully along.

Oh yeah, Mr.Camps, my partner in crime (fun) developed COPD (emphysema) so we gave up the crack back in 2006.


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

I have driven under the influence of both. There is no difference. Your reaction time under both is impaired. Yes, the more you imbibe/smoke, the worse the impairment. One joint is more than enough to impair your reaction time. The new potent pot they have now days, one hit may be all you need. (Haven't partaken in over 25 years.) So, even if possession is legalized, driving under the influence will not be/should not be legal.

And, bunnyman, I did run a stop sign while stoned, actually I was smoking another joint at the time. I was pulled over. Thankfully, the cop made me get out of the car and walk back to his. If he had walked up to my car, I'd be telling a whole different story.

I'm all for legalizing pot. In your home. It should be legal to grow your own too. But not legal to use while driving, or sitting in the White Castle parking lot. Transportation of open liquor is illegal and so it should be the same with pot.

Like liquor and other drugs, pot has detrimental effects on your body. Starting with your lungs.

Someday I may need to smoke it again for a medical reason and, if I can't grow it myself, I will be very happy to have a reputable place to buy it. I would not ever buy it on the street - don't know what you're getting today.


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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

If I may... I agree with Silver's assessment, totally understand where Campanula is coming from... and must yet reiterate that one need not SMOKE marijuana to enjoy its effects, therefore the smoke need never enter the lung cavity.

But I digress...

When I was a teen, the average 'user' began to experiment with many different things at around, oh, age 15 or 16, I would guess... but of course, that was back in the day, the 1970's, if anyone remembers those days, following the '60's... I understand it can be much younger these days... I don't really know what's actually going on out there in differing areas... and my kids are already adults.

I would never condone the use of drugs by children, and in fact feel that too many parents allow way too much in the way of sugars and other toxins to their younger children... though, that's their business. Sugars and other chemicals can be just as addicting as some illegal substances.

I would wholeheartedly agree that there are many different 'types' of users... probably more than there are types of drugs... and that adults should be able to do as they wish within the privacy of their own homes, as it pertains to this conversation.

I also agree, and feel it was very well said... that we only get one walk through this life, and we make the choices we make... also, who are we to condemn others for their choices?

Personally, I think some might be shocked at the high amount of drug use within the professional world... though they'd never recognize it unless it were pointed out.

I would agree, too, that even as an adult, it's always wise to know the source of your pleasures of choice... whatever they may be. As we've recently learned, one can't even trust brand name alcohols sold in franchise and other establishments... re: TGI Friday's recent oops, and those busted alongside.

But if we don't tell our youth the truth about our world, they aren't going to have the correct ammunition with which to make the best choices for themselves... and I think education is always key... or a big part of it.



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RE: Decriminilazation of marijuana

All I can say after reading all posts is that Legalizing is just like a Power to Us and a Great Responsibility is associated with Every Power ! Just Think !


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