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Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

Posted by lefleur1 (My Page) on
Fri, Jun 8, 12 at 0:38

I've only posted once before, but now I have received a similar e-mail to the one that made me upset the first time. What do you think about the contents?

Yes, I told them not to send me things like this ... but, what I am asking is: what do you think of the contents...I am too angry to think straight.
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This will knock your socks off...don't know who wrote it...I just received it from an old classmate.


----- Forwarded Message -----
From:


I don’t know who composed this letter but it’s right on the mark!
Wayne

Subject: FW: Letter to the Left

Letter to the Left


To all leftists, occupiers, unionistas and malcontents,

Thank you! What an election! We couldn't have done it without you. Without your tantrums, outbursts and boorish behavior we might have stayed home for this election. Without your filthy, pot smoking hemp -headed minions occupying and violating the Capitol we might have been complacent. Without your obnoxious protests, boycotts and other actions from your union playbook, we might have sat this one out.


But you couldn't hold back. You couldn't restrain yourselves and behave like adults. You couldn't accept the 2010 election results. We sat and watched as you erupted in a juvenile hissy fit that embarrassed Wisconsin. The spectacle you created is what motivated us. And thanks to your ill-mannered behavior, we won. We turned out. Big time! And now we are organized and energized. Committed. "All in". And we aren't going away. We now have our own organizations (no dues required), an army of volunteers and the means to communicate. And countless new sources of funding, including a donor base from all 50 states. And we have "iverifythe recall" to ferret out your infiltrators in our future local elections.

So thank you Mike Tate, Graeme Zielinski, Fred "Loonie" Levenhagen, Ismael Ozanne, Maryanne Sumi, Noble Ray, Charles Tubbs, Joanne Kloppenberg, Segway Boy, John Chisolm, public employee union members, UW TA's, WEAC, SEIU, MTI, AFSCME Council 24 in Union Grove and WI prison guards,. Thanks for the death threats, the intimidation, the bullying, belligerence, thuggery and goonish behavior. The lack of ethics and the failure to enforce rules and laws. Thank you for putting your selfish, greedy motives on display for all taxpayers to see.


Your antics might have made you feel good but they didn't make you look good. They sickened the rest of us.


Thank you Shirley Abrahamson and Ann Walsh Bradley. Your petty politics woke us up. Thanks you Miles Kristan for dumping the beer on Robin Vos's head. Thank you University doctors for writing the phony excuses; Madison teachers for calling in sick or dragging your students to the protests without permission. Thank you Katherine Windels for making death threats against the Governor. The noontime capitol singers who taunted Sheboygan high school students. Thank you WEA Trust for raping Wisconsin taxpayers. Thank you Gwen Moore for your embarrassing minstrel show. And thanks all of you for harassing the Walker family at their private home.


You have all been exposed. Your tactics have been rejected. Your bad behavior has been forever captured on You Tube.


Thank you Peter Barca and fellow Assembly members for donning your foolish orange T-shirts and screaming "shame" at legislators just doing their jobs.


Thank you Mark Miller and all 14 senators for fleeing the state and making fools of yourselves in the process. Illinois need a few more village idiots. Thanks for showing us what democracy doesn't look like.


And Mayor Barrett. How grateful we are that you chose one low road after another in your issue-less campaign against the Governor. This was your strike three. You are out. Take a seat on the bench and stay there. I have a hunch this was your final at-bat.

All of you helped turn Wisconsin permanently red. Your Governor, Scott Walker, will not just complete his first term, he is all but assured as many future terms as he seeks. He will be your governor for a long, long time. Get used to it. And his national "rock star" status just might lead him to be your President some day. Just think, it couldn't have happened without you! So to all of you blue fisters, thank you from the bottom of my happy, red heart.


Sincerely,

A Wisconsin taxpayer


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

Most here (with the exception of a few who actually do love this stuff) don't care to read trash sent through the e-mail and then ends up posted here, requesting comment. What is there to say? It's e-mail trash, everybody gets it.

Simply block the sender. Then you won't have to get that trash through your email anymore. Easy peasy.


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

Those righties, they just got rub it in and smear it in your face that they won.

Doesn't surprise me that this kind of stuff is circulating around now, and it sound like it shouldn't surprise you either.

It also sounds like, if you don't want to continue to receive this kind of email, you will have to block the people that send this kind of stuff to you from your email.

You may find that our "resident GOP supporters" will post in support of what is said, but you will also find others that won't support it.

What you decide to do with those that send this kind of email to you, well it's your business.

I find it offensive and if I had asked people not send this kind of junk to me and they continued to, well they would and have been blocked from my email, and it wouldn't matter to me who it was that was sending it.

Matter of fact it didn't, old college friends, and some family members on both sides, mine and hubby's where blocked from our email.


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

Is this the same friend you talked about the last time you were here, sending you a link in a similar righty nut vein, which you don't agree with, and then you posting it for and asking to read and then please what do we think?

What does it matter what we think?

What do YOU think and why do you only come in asking us what we think about this trash you get sent? It's your email, your ugly message to delete or keep if you choose.

The e-mail block function is your friend if you wish it to be.

What kind of friends do you have anyway? Family I understand - if they refuse to abide by your wishes you block them or end up stick with deleting before reading.

But a "friend"?

The block button is your friend. If you can't bring yourself to use it, the delete button is also your friend. A better one than the one which keeps sending you trash like this.


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

Yes, the gloating and high-five-ing is ugly, but they won so they are taking their victory lap. Unfortunately this recall election truly was a foolish exercise by a group of Union employees (mostly teachers) that backfired in an enormous way even beyond the borders of Wis. It galvanized Republicans across the country. The results provided them with momentum in the third quarter of the November election contest...and neither Obama nor Romney were not even major players in that fight.

Barret, a weak and wimpy candidate, lost once and provided zero reason why the result should be different the second time around. The Koch bros, and the NRA and other PACs rushed in with millions to make damn sure the last result would not be overturned.

You have to be sick about this if you are a Democrat and do not want Romney elected. I know I am. This election showed Republicans how to leverage white voters in the MidWest and how to win there with ads paid with millions in private PAC money. It is a simple recipe that they are already preparing for the Fall election.


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

Really? REALLY? "Everyone gets email trash"? You mean I'm the exception to the rule? I never, and I really do mean never, have gotten a single solitary email that was left-leaning. I think that is what drives me crazy...why do only the right-leaning people feel the need to do this proselytizing...

Sometimes I wonder if the lefties I know just aren't all that dedicated to their platforms, and I suppose that must include me...sigh..

Actually, I was not asking what I should do about it (I know.. I know..block their email)

What I wanted to know is: Could this letter-writer be on to something that I just don't get? Maybe Walker isn't the loathsome devil I thought he was. I again make my request: what do you think about the points made in this guy's letter? .. any opinions? .. is it just drivel?


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

drivel, drivel and more drivel.

Apparently the email is working and you don't even realize it.

The whole idea is to accomplish any one or combo of the following

1. rub it in your face that your side lost

2. question yourself and your own beliefs and maybe get you to think about
voting for the GOP instead of the Democrats

3. the sender doesn't like you and is deliberately sending this drivel to you
to upset you and it's doing that too.

See you are upset, you don't understand why you are getting the emails and you are now wondering if the one that sent you this drivel, well the original author of the email is on to something.

Thanks but no thanks on this junk email. question all you want, it's absurd junk and belongs in the junk mail, spam or whatever else you want to call it.

I wouldn't have even read the crap to start with and sure wouldn't be doubting myself and what I believe because I received this in my inbox.


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

Drivel.

They must brag. I understand, lefties would have done the same too, just in a different way and not with e-mail round robin trash.

You are correct, I also have never gotten any left email trash ever, either. I have never gotten left email period.

Thank the heavens for that!

Every side has a valid point. Sometimes one side has a whole heck of a lot more valid points that others. And sometimes the "points" exist only in a side's head. Both would say this.

It's politics. If you have your point of view and have read this and think it does not have any point valid enough to make a differece to you, then it doesn't. Just because you want to have an open mind about the issue doesn't mean that this letter had any valid point worth making a difference to your point of view. You have to decide what issues and parts of issues are important to you, nobody can do that for you. If you think the email had very valid points, then consider and think about them, research it for accuracy and then if you accept them, decide if it's important enough to change your opinion a little or a lot.

I have never found anything spread through e-mail that was worth much thought, except to wonder about how people can accept such drivil. That is the truth - honest, valid, thoght provoking points don't come through the e-mail, that I have seen, only foolish stuff that tends to be highly innacurate.


Another thing to remember - different issues within the same topic are more important to some than to others, and this also is what forms opinions. It might not be a black and white issue of who's right or wrong, it is a difference of opiniion on what gravity of importance should be placed on each topic or idea. Some people think the poor are not as important an issue to address than is bank reform. Or some might not think bank reform is as important as campaign finance reform.

It is often the level of importance different people assign to the topics within different discussions which create the differences of opinions - that is a purely personal thing.

I'm sure someone will be willing to read it and give you an honest opinion - I don't mess with e-mail mass mailings in my own box or re-printed here. Or with messages from people who are determined to shove their opinion at me when I asked them not to. I just can't give any credence to information given that way. Too often it isn't even information in the first place. Honestly I don't think you should either. If you hear something that causes a "huh?" moment of questions or doubt then research it to see if it's accurate and shape your opinion on all that you have discovered, not on partial snippets of someone elses take of what "accurate and fully disclosed information" they think you should accept as truth.

Hope this helps, it's the best I can do.


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

Sorry, I didn't realize there had been two intervening posts when I wrote..heri cles, thank you for your answer..you made some excellent points. I totally agree with everything you wrote, but I guess the whole Wisc. debacle makes me ill to the point of being inarticulate. Anger gets me in trouble. I would do well to just memorize your whole post and spit it out when confronted by this *friend* instead of wanting to smack her upside the head!


Mylab "what does it matter what we think" ...well, for one thing it matters what you think because I always read all your well thought-out posts...so I DO wish you would tell me what you think of the points that letter-writer proffered. I actually lurk here every day and learn so much from all of you (on both sides of the issues) I'm too intimidated to post...also too wishy-washy...and also inclined to get unreasonably angry.

Yes, indeed, "what kind of friends do you have" ... here's the deal... when you live in an ultra-conservative area (north burbs of Chgo.) there really isn't much choice...and after the stinging return email I sent her, I probably now have one fewer friends, which makes me very sad because she is wonderful, except for this one little thing.....sigh


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

Good grief, I am so slow in getting my thoughts typed out that I have once again missed two intervening posts...and good ones they were too!

Thank you mylab & littleone...many, many good points for me to ponder.

My, we are nightowls aren't we?! Well, thanks to all of you, I think I have calmed down enough to take my ambien and call it a night..and I'm thinking I should apologize for basically posting the same anger I did the first time I posted here...aah, well, I'll be off to lurkdom again tomorrow..sorry...

I gotta tell ya, I am now regretting the nasty email I sent my friend in a moment of anger..you would like her, honest.


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

Lefleur--I dunno about the 'friend' thing. Someone capable to send such a mail, that would give me 2nd thoughts. Looks like true colours are showing.


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

Lefleur, if you ever post again please try to upgrade as you are threatening our MENSA affiliation...


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

This exercise in coarse pettiness knocks your socks off? Perhaps you need to shop for better socks.


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

Never thought I'd agree with KT, but I too wondered why this would make you so angry. It can't be the first time you've this kind of talk.


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

This is really what we have come to in this country.

Left and Right and scorched earth policies at all cost and our fellow Americans the enemy.

What a cluster...and this poster's juvenile style looks familar. just sayin. Elvis has not left the building.


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

If you use Outlook Express, click on "Messages", then click "Block Sender", then follow the instructions from there. It's simple. You'll never have to deal with this sort of garbage email again.

I used to receive a few occasional emails from far right Fox Gumbyheads in chain letter form. They were from acquaintances that thought I walked in lockstep with them.

First, I responded to one of the more illogical letters... I think it was a "birther" letter... and I explained to them how to research and gather real, vetted facts... let them know in no uncertain terms that I was a liberal, towing no party line... debunked the contents of the email I had received... and then blocked them from my list of allowed incoming email.

It was simple, and it took only a few minutes of my time. Done deal... and I no longer have to receive the rants of irrational persons who take the first thing they read or are told as gospel truth.


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

I live in a very conservative area. I occasionally have to listen to my friends (yes they are my friends) spout off some anti-Obama rants in person. If these people are beyond convincing then I just change the subject. If I feel these people might be open to discussion then I will share some of my view points.


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

Posted by maggie2094 (My Page) on Fri, Jun 8, 12 at 8:55

"What a cluster...and this poster's juvenile style looks familar. just sayin. Elvis has not left the building."

Hey, MAG. That sort of post is more YOUR style.


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

I had a very good and, what I thought, lifelong friend when I lived in Minnesota. After moving the PNW, we communicated by phone and email. In about 2006, I started receiving some very racist and right-wing emails (are they one and the same?) from her. A couple of them were so erroneous that I emailed her ("reply all" because they were sent to her by others) about how Snopes was her friend. Then, in Dec. 2010, I got a horribly racist Obama email, which made my stomach churn. I wrote her to tell her how racist it was and that it made me ill and not to send me cwap like that. She replied that she was sorry she offended me, but thought it was funny! I realized that I no longer valued her as a friend and didn't read nor reply to her very infrequent emails and didn't send her a Christmas card. She wrote me and asked why no card, wondering if something had happened. No reply from me. I have often wondered if I should have spelled it out for her so she wouldn't wonder what was going on with me.

Incidentally, she's in Michelle Bachmann's district, no surprise.


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

"I had a very good and, what I thought, lifelong friend..."

This is valuable, DS.

"I got a horribly racist Obama email, which made my stomach churn. I wrote her to tell her how racist it was and that it made me ill and not to send me cwap like that. She replied that she was sorry she offended me, but thought it was funny!"

This is the part where you explain to her very carefully what the problem is.

"I realized that I no longer valued her as a friend and didn't read nor reply to her very infrequent emails and didn't send her a Christmas card. She wrote me and asked why no card, wondering if something had happened. No reply from me. I have often wondered if I should have spelled it out for her so she wouldn't wonder what was going on with me."

Ya think??? You should talk to her. You are her friend.

You brought it up. :-)


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

"I realized that I no longer valued her as a friend and didn't read nor reply to her very infrequent emails and didn't send her a Christmas card. She wrote me and asked why no card, wondering if something had happened. No reply from me. I have often wondered if I should have spelled it out for her so she wouldn't wonder what was going on with me."

You could have tried to explain it to her, but trust me from one who has been there and done that;

There is no explaining to the far right wing, especially if they are the evangelical type, and making them understand how you feel about their emails.

You just can't get through to them. There is the apology, that you got Dock, the one that "I didn't mean to offend, I thought it was funny", and then you will get the exact same type again and again and again with the same lame apology and it was funny to me stuff.

It's really hard to respect someone that believes this kind of garbage and stay friends with them. This is the kind of crap that destroys friendships, and leaves nothing of value to them.

Dock, if it would make you feel better to contact and try to explain how you feel, go ahead and try. I doubt you will get through and it can be more upsetting to try and get no where than to just leave things the way they are.

Should you do it because you are her friend? Well I don't see how you are her friend now, and that is a decision you should make, not do what someone else thinks you should do.


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

We each handle this sort of thing differently. If no contact was the method Dockside felt was the best way to deal with it, who is anyone else to say otherwise?

I believe Dockside said it was already mentioned to that person that such things were offensive. I don't know why it needed to be spelled out any clearer.

I, too, have left behind a few people who had racist or prejudiced views that I couldn't stomach. I didn't owe them any explanations... letting them know that their views were offensive was enough.

To my way of thinking, sharing offensive or bigoted views doesn't make for good friendship.


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

I didn't find it that difficult when a relative started sending racist material amongst the pictures of bunnies in hats. I emailed him "Please do not send me any more messages, I am not interested" and he stopped. I may have to explain at the next funeral/wedding/90th birthday but I can handle it as he is not a bad guy hw just has a misguided sense of humour.


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

How should you respond to a biracial relative that tells a black joke?


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

How do you respond to a blonde woman that tells a blonde (woman) joke?


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

I'm serious, Esh. It happens to me at family get togethers.


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Fri, Jun 8, 12 at 19:12

.....maybe she is a bleached blonde Esh :)


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

I would probably come right out and say what I was thinking... but then, I'm not known for holding back. I would tell them the truth, that I did not find their racist humor to be funny in any way... only insulting. I'd ask that the person please grow up and not tell any more bigoted jokes as they are not amusing in the least, and they reflect poorly upon that person.


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

I'd respond the same way I would with anyone that told a joke that offensive to me.

what race have to do with it.

A joke is a joke, an offensive joke and/or remark is just that offensive and it really doesn't matter who tells it, who says it.

Why would you think it would any different because a biracial person told a black joke?

I just don't get that?


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

I get no right wing drivel . I have in the past gotten anti Obama forwards that a college friend sent me. I debunk every lying detail, and now they've stopped. We're all going out to dinner next week but we won't talk politics. I never initiate but I will respond.

My FB page is a different story. It is 3/4 political now and of course all left. I'll find a neat fact about Romney or the GOP and put it on my Timeline. My kids were threatening to "unfriend " me..lol.


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Sat, Jun 9, 12 at 17:37

If I was a public worker in Wisconsin, or anywhere in USofA for that matter, I would be watching the rollbacks of public employee pensions that is going on in California right now.

Unless of course you do not need a pension, in that case it does not matter much does it.


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on Sat, Jun 9, 12 at 17:37

If I was a public worker in Wisconsin, or anywhere in USofA for that matter, I would be watching the rollbacks of public employee pensions that is going on in California right now.
____________________

Some people don't know that part of Walker's cuts to unions was to take $42 million from the state retirement system fund. That's one of the ways in which he "balanced the budget".

What was publicized was this sort of thing: "workers will have to pay part of their health insurance (they already were) and "workers will have to pay for their retirement (they were already were except for 3.5%, which was part of their compensation in lieu of actual wages). And finally, "workers bargaining rights have been changed". Try eliminated except for wages, but without any teeth this means nothing.

Many who could retire did immediately. Others who could retire are waiting to do so and watching to see what he's up to next.


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

I get spam email and robocalls, and even had a call I did not answer from some remote area in Wisconsin recently that I later traced to some RW source.

As far as pension benefits for public employees, it depends what State one is in, how that State has funded or set up their pension benefits, and what the respective State Constitutions provide for concerning the State's legal duty to pay them.

In Illinois, there is a lot of pension abuse by public employees including cops and teachers who have now taken second and third jobs, collect Social Security, etc....and most of that I know are REPUBLICANS . These pensioneers could care less if Unions are now destroyed, Social Security and Medicare are Ryanholed for good, and the ACA repealed or "overruled" by Scalia, Inc.

There is a guy name Tim Baldermann who was a Police Chief in a suburb (Chicago ridge) of Chicago that had his pension benefits raised up to $199,000 a year while he was a Mayor of another town. He then got a job through his political clout as a school superintendent of a one-school school District for $127,000 a year. His wife is a school principal in another district making around $126,000/yr. with full health, dental and pension bennys as well. Oh yea, this guy is a staunch Republican.

Scott Fitzgerald's father is a retired Chicago cop on a sizable pension. No problem, Scott Walker appointed him to a $100K + per year job in Wisconsin.

No penalty for double dipping and not even a haircut for their social security bennys. It is no wonder why many Democratic voters who see these Republican pensioneer hypocrites abuse the system worse than Blago ever did, cannot get that excited about protecting pensions for Union employees.
We can get angry though at their hypocrisy on Unions, pension and health benefits for those who follow them. They have a lot of nerve seeking to dismantle Social Security, Medicare, Obamacare and the social safety net for those who were not fortunate enough to get a job in the public sector which turned out to be like a winning ticket to the Lottery.


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

"There is a guy name Tim Baldermann who was a Police Chief in a suburb (Chicago ridge) of Chicago that had his pension benefits raised up to $199,000 a year while he was a Mayor of another town. He then got a job through his political clout as a school superintendent of a one-school school District for $127,000 a year. His wife is a school principal in another district making around $126,000/yr. with full health, dental and pension bennys as well. Oh yea, this guy is a staunch Republican."

Now that's a crazy story; but okay. I wonder how much he made while working to get that kind of pension? Holy Moly. Must have been a spectacular job!

I've got 30 years in, and will definitely have to bag groceries or something. I don't mind. Wow, that story really is a mind blower. Bet that goes on all the time, right?

The outrage.


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

Back in the day, before media was owned by giant corporations with political clout and agendas to sell, we were actually given a taste of real news... real, unbiased news.

Now, everything is a propaganda machine, selling a particular ideology, and bending the information they receive from reporters to fit those agendas or ideologies.

The people, in part, haven't kept up with this by learning to think independently of what they're told by the media box.

A lot of folks seem to have lost the educational ability to tell reality from the twisted nonsense they're fed on a daily basis, and aren't bothering to use cognitive thinking, proper research, problem solving skills or common sense to learn the difference between fact and fiction, and what's vetted truth versus what the bent, biased media wants them to hear, see and repeat.

It's working out quite well for those corporations, industries, and their political puppets intent upon obtaining their objectives, but the average citizen is not being duly represented by the officials they elect to do just that... represent their best interests.

If you look closely at the records of those politicians, on all levels, whom you think are representing you... more often than not, you find that they're representing themselves and their friends, and not the extremely varied citizenry within their districts. And somehow, people still vote for them, even though everything those officials stand for goes against the interests of the people.

I don't understand how anyone can vote, knowing that those they're choosing are looking to help themselves, and not the voters.

I'm not sure who here is a part of that 1%, as it's called... but I do know that many of us are a part of the 99% not being duly, justly represented.

After spending the majority of our lives working, paying into social security, pensions, and other forms of retirement funds... there comes a time when we get old, and are not physically able to continue working as we once did. We deserve to take a rest as we reach retirement age, to slow down a bit and use the rewards that we've worked so hard to put aside. We shouldn't have to flip burgers or engage in menial labor at an advanced age... unless we want to.

And yet, here we are, forced to continue working until we either become incapacitated or die of old age.

My Dad worked until he was 67, and for all his decades of impeccable service to the same company, received basically nothing... but at least he had his pension and could draw from the social security he'd helped build up. My Mom, too, worked her entire life, taking a few years to raise us from infants to first grade age, after which she went right back to work. She, too, was able to draw from her pension and receive the social security she helped to build.

But it's not the same for many of our generation. We'll be forced to work until we keel over on the job... and the retirement funds we thought would carry us through our elderly years won't be enough to support us.

And yet, people still don't understand that the Republican party is not the same entity it once was, and is stripping away livelihoods, retirements, education for the next generations, rights and freedoms, and have no qualms about double dipping from both the private sector and government funds and/or subsidies, taking the positions promised by those corporations and industries they did favors for over the years... but those that fall into the category of the 99% and belong to the Republican party are not going to reap those same benefits, because their party no longer cares about them.

The Democrats are not without fault... corruption runs rampant on both sides of the fence, and at many levels. None of it is excused.

But we, as citizens, the ones who built this nation through hard work, blood, sweat, and tears... and so many sacrificed lives... are being left out in the cold, made to fend for ourselves... while that 1% lives extremely comfortable lives on the money they've siphoned upward, taken from the middle class in various forms.

And now, they want to do further damage by chopping apart the agencies that protect our environment and safety, take the nation back in time through calculated moves that remove our choices and freedoms, keep us paying for endless wars, marry private religious beliefs with our legislation process, further divide the peoples that make up our nation, refusing to recognize certain groups as equal, which will all serve to create general chaos within those groups on the lower end of the ladder.

Greed and selfishness, self involvement, discrimination, and not a care regarding anyone of perceived lesser class have become the mantras of the day...

It saddens me greatly that this is the world those at the top have deemed acceptable as the inheritance of our nation's progeny...


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

"My Dad worked until he was 67, and for all his decades of impeccable service to the same company, received basically nothing... but at least he had his pension and could draw from the social security he'd helped build up

*

Exactly what is it that you think he should have received from his company?

Did he receive wages in exchange for work?
He received a "pension" that he contributed to, and his employer contributed to?

Did he receive paid vacation during those years?
Health care benefits while he worked?

Exactly what else was he entitled to?


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

Exactly what is it that you think he should have received from his company?

There is no need to try to make things personal, demifloyd.
It looks like you either did not read Jodik's entire post and maybe were just looking to nit pick.

If you read her entire post you would have noticed that she admitted that her parents were fortunate to have pension and social security money.

However, as she stated "... it's not the same for many of our generation. We'll be forced to work until we keel over on the job... and the retirement funds we thought would carry us through our elderly years won't be enough to support us. "


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

Wow, that story really is a mind blower. Bet that goes on all the time, right?

Bet what goes on all the time? Are you referring to politicians garnering favors for themselves or those who are double dipping in the public pension trough? Or are you referring to those who are receiving one or more lucrative pensions yet still draw Social Security ? Or are you referring to the hypocrisy of some Republicans who themselves receive some of those bennys yet want to see them ended for those who follow?
There is a lot of all of that going on in my State and if you look around, in Wisconsin too. I gave you teh example of Scott Walker's father getting pension benefits from teh Chicago Police department while receiving about $100K for a job he was appointed to by his son and Scott Walker.
Or how about Wisconsion representative Van Wanggaard who gets a pension and health benefits from working as a Racine cop for a few years plus his salary as Wis Rep., and then will collect on both pensions and social security.?

In Illinois we have many early retiree teachers (retiring at 55 years old) from suburban school districts who receive 50K to 100K per yr. on pension, yet are earning a like amount in another career. I know a few couples who were teachers who have $150K combined pension income. Most every one of then now work other jobs and are still able to work full time.

One answer is to dismantle Unions for public employees from this point forward, yet make sure every benefit is paid to those who have retired, even if they are receiving another lucrative pension and may be making a large sum of money in another line of work. That is what is happening now.


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

There are several things that tick me off with this whole 'lets trash the public servants pensions' thing.

First, a pension is a form of delayed compensation. Work for us now, we'll pay you later. This is - generally - a good thing for both companies and governments and the people who work for them. So both companies and gvts set up a retirement fund, contributions from both, and they invest this in the markets. When the markets crash, the fund has to make up the difference. So they either cut the benefits, or pay more into the fund.

And this is the nub of it - why did the market crash and cause the problem? Because of the union, or because of some risky economic activity completely unrelated to this essential contract between employer / employee? Like maybe some stupid housing bubble and bogus derivatives sold around the world has little to do with a school teacher - who now loses her pension.

So one solution is to move all this to a defined contribution vs a defined benefit system, sort of like a 401K. Fine, except look what happened to everybody's 401 K with the same greed-head behavior that trashed the union contracts.

And so now, the 'solution' proposed by the Republicans is to do away with any kind of guaranteed pension (see 'privatizing' no-wait, 'individualizing' Social Security) and force everyone into this glorious concept of investing your own money for your own future and hey, if it doesn't work out, there's always soup kitchens and highway underpasses.

Of course, the media focus and hoopla is all on the abuses of the public pension system - these people that you're talking about raking in a pair of 6 figure pensions because of political connections, - it ignores what I see as the vast majority of civil servants who never earned much to begin with and whose pension is nothing to cheer about at all. Colorado has a state-wide pension fund for all public school teachers and all state employees. And when you actually see what a teacher, who put in 30-40 years, earns as a pension, its around $2,500 a month. So if that gets cut down to $2,000, multiplied by the thousands of folks on the same pension plan, that hurts.

And as Walker raided the pension fund to balance the budget, so do leveraged buyout firms use the pension money as collateral for a loan - to pay themselves. Later the company goes bankrupt, the employees lose their pension, and the tax payer gets stuck picking up the pieces.


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

Well put, David.


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

Letter to The Left - who would the author believe he was writing to? Is 'Left' relative? i.e would anyone more liberal than Sarah Palin be considered 'The Left'? Where is the line drawn and who holds it? Is the point to hold a fixed and conservative position and designate any one who doesn't agree with you 'The Left'. For instance - nobody outside of the US considers Obama anywhere approaching the left yet people here on this forum seem to think he is a Marxist for heavens sake.


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

With so many years invested in helping the company he worked for be successful and grow, with nary a sick day taken, one would think a "thank you" of some kind might be in order... a retirement party, a watch, a small bonus of some sort... anything. But not so much as a "thank you for your many years of excellent service" was issued.

When one goes above and beyond, dedicating oneself to a career, helping that company grow and profit, one might expect at least a "thank you" in return, don't you think? I guess in some folks' world, that's just too much to ask for.

I agree, David... and that's part of the problem... the pensions many people earn are not huge amounts... and when you add it to Social Security, it's just enough to squeak by. If one or the other get cut, how will people live?


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

Jodi, you didn't need to explain, everyone got what you meant, well not everyone but we have traveled this way before and whenever you say up she will say down. Loyalty is a two way street that was recently changed to a sans unique.


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

If you work for the state of Colorado, thats your entire pension, there's no social security.


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

Yeah, and the down always seems to come right on the heels of the up. Coincidence? Maybe. Certainly deja vu.

Loyalty used to be a two way street. Today, the sign reads "One Way Only".


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

Jodik, thanks for explaining you meant gratitude.

I can understand why you thought they owed him that.
I agree.

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Posted by heri_cles 10 (My Page) on
Sun, Jun 10, 12 at 12:39

Exactly what is it that you think he should have received from his company?

There is no need to try to make things personal, demifloyd.
It looks like you either did not read Jodik's entire post and maybe were just looking to nit pick.

If you read her entire post you would have noticed that she admitted that her parents were fortunate to have pension and social security money.

*

Hericles, not that it's any of your business, Jodik and I are able to communicate ourselves--I DID read her post, and she's the one that brought up her father and made statements. I don't "nit pic." There's enough animosity on this forum as it is and I don't intend to start any.
I don't walk away from fights but I don't start them.

I asked questions because I did not understand what she had in mind when she said, "My Dad worked until he was 67, and for all his decades of impeccable service to the same company, received basically nothing."

That's not personal, Jodik brought up the topic. I asked what else she thought the company owed her Dad.

Jodik took the time to clarify and answer.

Your smart comment and jumping to conclusions and trying to start something are NOT APPRECIATED BY ME.


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Sun, Jun 10, 12 at 21:23

....so do leveraged buyout firms use the pension money as collateral for a loan - to pay themselves. Later the company goes bankrupt, the employees lose their pension, and the tax payer gets stuck picking up the pieces.

You mean like Bain Capital ?


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

David52 said:
And when you actually see what a teacher, who put in 30-40 years, earns as a pension, its around $2,500 a month. So if that gets cut down to $2,000, multiplied by the thousands of folks on the same pension plan, that hurts.

I have no problem with that kind of a pension. Unfortunately what I see with retired teachers here in the Chgo suburbs (who are retired at 55 years old) are pensions that are typically two and three times that amount. The average pension for a teacher in Illinois is $46,000 (exclusing health benefits and that average includes lower pension substitute teachers, rural school districts teachers from inner city Chicago schools). In most suburban communities teachers are typically retiring at 55 years of age with $65,000 - $75,000 a year pension plus lifetime healthcare bennys.

Believe me, I know a bunch of them personally. And ironically, almost to the man/woman, they are staunch Republicans who support Ryanomics and want Obamacare repealed. They want to make sure that their money, specifically their public employee pension money and health insurance benefits, are not going get reduced to pay for someone else health insurance. That would be Socialism in their opinion.

And you know, a lot of them have their kids in Catholic schools as well.

So...no suprise, this is just like anything else in life as well as in politics - as long as things are fine and even favorable for you and yours, to he11 with the next guy. Those damn irresponsible welfare queens, the irresponsible lib Democrats who have no pension and lost their homes and retirement, the over 50 and unemployed who have to scrape by until they kick the bucket, and those who quake in their boots that Republicans will take away their health insurance by repealing ACA ....damn them all. Just make sure the my pension check is in the mail.

Here is a link that might be useful: pension reform balked at by Republicans and Democrats in Illinois


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RE: Letter to the Left and Right (Pensions)

And just to clarify and spotlight the difference in pension amounts for Chicago teachers vs. suburban and downstate teachers that I referred to, I am including the link below.

During the late 1960's /early 1970's there was a lot of white flight into mostly segregated white suburban areas. Nice new homes and schools were built in those growing communities.
Those suburban schools paid the highest amount for teachers salaries and offered the highest retirement bennys. In fact, the salaries well exceeded what teachers could get at a local parochial school (Catholic schools here) .

Now the retirement fund is short and the chickens have come home to roost. Some Democrats, most notably Rahm Emmanuel, have backed a plan to reform the retirement system by making local school districts more responsible for the costs of their own teachers retirement rather than just averaging the costs Statewide.

As a side note to this pension business, it's funny how some people blame inner city kids and decaying underfunded inner city schools for every ill, but they don't know what has happened in the City since their families moved away decades ago. Now they simply have no idea what in the he11 they are talking about when they spout off things about minorities lacking personal responsibility and that the answer to structural social problems is very simple - entitlement reform.
He11, giving "them" money didn't work, so why give anything at all.

Here is a link that might be useful: Suburban teachers golden parachute


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

Heri, your Illinois teachers sure sound like they have it made retirement-wise. When you say retire at age 55 and making $65K+? Wow. In the Wisconsin system, earliest age to retire is 57 IF you have 30 years of service. And then--no job, no health insurance. Teachers around here average about $40K, so I guess their retirement will be a whole lot less than the people you know. Maybe your friends were teaching at college?

It sounds like a very screwed up system.


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

When you say retire at age 55 and making $65K+? Wow.

I have a female friend who taught grammar school for twenty years in a Northern Chgo suburb and was made to take early retirement at about 65K per year.
Another couple (both teachers, one high school the other grammar school) that likewise were encouraged to take early retirement. Their combined pensions are $150,000 and since then, they both started businesses.

As the link I posted explains, the higher pensioned teachers are from the suburbs, not the City, yet those people are still paying into these pension funds with part of their real estate taxes. It is a broken system that is difficult to support for anyone who is not a beneficiary of it no matter what their part affiliation.

Personally, I support reasonable pension benefits for public and private employees but the system is obviously broken in my State. That's why you will never retired teachers out in the street demonstrating here like you may have witnessed in Wisconsin. They are out shopping.


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wzisc. election)

When you say retire at age 55 and making $65K+? Wow.

Oh that's low compared to some.

""[B]ig pay increases pad pensions because the highest salary years are used to calculate retirement pay for years to come. ...
"The salary of Schaumburg High School business education teacher Martin Barski rose from $91,151 to $142,536 in his final years with District 211, district records show. At 55, Barski retired last year with a pension of about $72,000 ..."

Of course, high school teachers like that early retiree had every holiday on the school schedule off, Spring break off, all Summer off, 2 weeks for Christmas vacation off, and never worked week ends. It was a good life for those teachers that was relatively stress free compared to other lines of work in the private sector and it ended up providing guaranteed health insurance, high salary a dignified retirement.

Here is a link that might be useful: Illinois teacher salary and pensions


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

My brother lives in a Chicago suburb, and was telling me something about how Illinois local school boards can vote retirement benefit packages for their teachers/administrators, but don't have to pick up the tab, the state does. So, of course, they're pretty generous.

/something like that


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

He's exactly right.
The larger point in the political context of Walker surviving his Recall, is that there are issues about the abuse of Union benefits, especially by some of the Republicans I cited who are genuine hypocrites.

I support Unions and their right to collectively bargain, but I do not support the abuse of the system.
So I proudly support teachers, firemen, police, public employees and the public education system...all of which have come under fire by Republican lawmakers trying to dismantle Unions instead of working on fixing the real problems.

The problem is not the teachers, police and firemen. They will live gladly within a fair collective bargaining system that is transparent enough to guarantee that we will no longer see the over reaching benefits and outright abuses I mentioned.
A few bad Union officials and political hacks have diminished Unions in the minds of a lot of people and that in turn has given the Right a sledgehammer to try to break them apart.
That same sledgehammer is poised to destroy public education, blaming the Unions for all that needs attending to there as well.


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

"In Illinois we have many early retiree teachers (retiring at 55 years old) from suburban school districts who receive 50K to 100K per yr. on pension, yet are earning a like amount in another career. I know a few couples who were teachers who have $150K combined pension income. Most every one of then now work other jobs and are still able to work full time."

Most of that comment is ridiculous. Please Heri give examples. Most idiots who talk about the exorbitant pensions do not realize that we are not allowed to draw Social Security.

"I have no problem with that kind of a pension. Unfortunately what I see with retired teachers here in the Chgo suburbs (who are retired at 55 years old) are pensions that are typically two and three times that amount. The average pension for a teacher in Illinois is $46,000 (exclusing health benefits and that average includes lower pension substitute teachers, rural school districts teachers from inner city Chicago schools). In most suburban communities teachers are typically retiring at 55 years of age with $65,000 - $75,000 a year pension plus lifetime healthcare bennys."

All teachers in IL are able to retire at 55.Most do not. Read up on things. It is annoying reading things from people who have no clue what they are talking about. People become teachers with the benefits that you claim that they do not deserve in mind. Later on people like you convince others that their money is not deserved.

"Believe me, I know a bunch of them personally. And ironically, almost to the man/woman, they are staunch Republicans who support Ryanomics and want Obamacare repealed. They want to make sure that their money, specifically their public employee pension money and health insurance benefits, are not going get reduced to pay for someone else health insurance."

This is an argument from a person that knows absolutely nothing. I am the President of a downstate union. I have worked with the IL unions at the state level and he has NO idea what he is talking about. I have not met ONE teacher that speaks derogatorily about "Obamacare"

"My brother lives in a Chicago suburb, and was telling me something about how Illinois local school boards can vote retirement benefit packages for their teachers/administrators, but don't have to pick up the tab, the state does. So, of course, they're pretty generous."

Well, he is a liar, or stupid. The largest raise that people can get is 6%. The district has to pay every dime of that.


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

Frank said:
Please Heri give examples.

Frank, I did provide specific examples including a high school teacher in Barrington, by name, who has been making a salary of $142,00 a year and retired at 55 with a pension pf $72,000.00 a year.

I also provides a link so that you can see teacher salaries in Chicago suburbs, like, let's say. High School District 230 and so many others.

Now I do not want to quarrel with you about teacher Unions from downstate Illinois and I am confident that you know your stuff. However, as Rahm Emmanuel has been pointing out, many Chicago suburban school districts have overdone it with teacher salary and pension benefits. His point is that neither those who live in the City of Chicago or in downstate IL should have to pay for those benefits.

Also, please realize that Downstate Illinois teachers Unions have an entirely different salary structure than those in either the City of Chicago or its various suburbs. You always seems to be taken aback when you hear about teachers in the Chicago suburbs making what they do, but it is what it is.

Below is one link about some of these pensions and t has a link on that page where you can research salaries of high school teachers in Illinois. You can compare let's say H.S, District 230 to your local high school District, just as an example.

I do think teachers are worth what they make, by and large.
I just happen to agree with Emmanuel that there has been some overstated pensions in many of the Chicago suburbs that they should pay for instead of putting it on tax payers Statewide. I would think you would agree with that, no?

Here is a link that might be useful: IL teacher salaries and pensions


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

Sorry to interrupt but I'm looking for Jodik. Can you answer my question at the link please?

Here is a link that might be useful: Watering Coco Coir


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RE: Letter to the Left (Wisc. election)

Not a problem... you will find that I posted some information for you at the link you provided. I hope it helps! :-)


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