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Should the Govt try athletes for doping?

Posted by tobr24u z6 RI (My Page) on
Tue, Jun 19, 12 at 6:24

After spending 10.5 mil of our money trying to convict Roger Clemmons and the fiasco of the Barry Bonds case it seems that we are wasting money in an area that perhaps we shouldn't care about. After all, if fans want to pay big bucks and want to see big results is it any wonder that players will do what ever it takes? Surely you would agree that our bucks could be better spent...


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Should the Govt try athletes for doping?

I thought the state sports commissions handle those, like they do with boxing and MMA

Why would that be a case for state or federal court? Each state has its own athletic commission.


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RE: Should the Govt try athletes for doping?

Uh, this is MLB...not high school athletics.

yes, this was a waste of money. Should those found not guilty be eligible for the Hall of Fame? Yes, with footnotes.


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Who said anything about high school athletics? We're talking about money in the millions, with huge fines and real doping, as in steroids, unnaturally elevated testosterone levels... The NSAC and other state commissions handle cases like this all the time.

Why should court systems for the people be involved? Unless it becomes a civil suit where the state athletic commission is corrupt, and the athlete is handed a raw deal. Athletic commissions are appointed by state Governors, so unfortunately, there is corruption involved at times.


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Clemens made Millions of fans, or OUR money as the OP stated, by cheating and lying and then trying to cover it up. To suggest that he should be allowed to disrespect Congress and our Courts and get away with it, just because he is just a pro athlete, is ludicrous.

I thought Republicans were all for prosecuting perjury, or is that only when it suits some agenda they have?


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WTH is Congress doing "investigating" a law enforcement issue? Oh wait - I know -- it's an opportunity to grandstand and pat themselves on the back.

Why would anyone expect someone to incriminate themselves in a dog-and-pony show that isn't even a real court of law? Congress is NOT the judiciary, thank heavens. You know, separation of powers, rights, all that stuff that interferes with a really good show.

Another waste of time and taxpayer money. No wonder the public has such a low opinion of Congress. I'm glad there's not a recession or a bunch of political and economic upheavals going on so that they have the time to harass individual US citizens.

Surely Richard would agree. :-)


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RE: Should the Govt try athletes for doping?

Actually, there is a world organization for athletic doping, called WADA, I believe... World Anti-Doping Agency. The Olympics use this organization, as well as other major sports played on an international level.

In the US, each state normally uses its own commission, depending on the sport, and the licensing required... although apparently, the US does have its own anti-doping agency.

Since I don't follow baseball, I'm not up on the Clemmen's thing... but after reading a rather lengthy article this morning, I can't believe they pursued this in the manner they did. What does Congress have to do with justice and sports?

Lance Armstrong is also sitting in the hot seat where the US is concerned.

Why is so hard to believe that certain persons are more capable, or genetically stronger, or are simply more dedicated to what they do than other sports players?

I don't find it hard to believe that some careers last longer than others due to following stricter regimens and better health care and diets.

Just as a small example... looking at me, you'd never believe for a minute that I was 50. Never. You'd peg me at around 30, or 40 maximum. I'm simply gifted with decent genetics in that particular department.

It's not an impossibility to maintain a decently long career in whatever one chooses as long as one is dedicated to training and performing at their very best level. Steroids or Human Growth Hormones do not always have to be involved.

And I'm still left wondering why it's such a political thing...

Here is a link that might be useful: World Anti-Doping Agency


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My vote goes in the NO column.


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  • Posted by kwoods Cold z7 Long Is (My Page) on
    Tue, Jun 19, 12 at 10:50

"WTH is Congress doing "investigating" a law enforcement issue? Oh wait - I know -- it's an opportunity to grandstand and pat themselves on the back."

Agree with Lion. But.... once they do pull you in front of congress, don't lie... that's just really, really stupid.


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No. Hell, several members of our high school football team were running Test, Dball and Winny when I was in school.

Fans want top performance at any cost.


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"Agree with Lion. But.... once they do pull you in front of congress, don't lie... that's just really, really stupid."

Well, there's that. :-)

The other side of this is if you admit wrongdoing in front of Congress, then a real prosecutor uses that as evidence in your "real" trial (instead of the phony witch hunts created by Congress).

I question why Congress should have the power to call in private citizens and expect them to incriminate themselves over something ubiquitous. First, it singles out one of many people; second, you are stuck with a prosecutable offense when you're done. This is an abuse of power.

Since Clemens was found not guilty in a real trial - another in an increasingly long line of the AG's failures -- it seems that people do not like and do not agree with the heavy-handedness of Congress. That suits me just fine. :-)


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For once, I'm in agreement with MarkJames... it seems the fans do want top performers in their sport(s) of choice, and they don't seem to care how they achieve that performance.

If an athlete is willing to put his body through the effects of PEDs, or Performance Enhancing Drugs, that's up to him... or her.

As of right now, most steroids are illegal. Only a few are legal for medical use... and some, I believe, require the doctor to be specially licensed to prescribe their use.

Human Growth Hormone is used by people other than athletes to help stop the aging process. It's becoming a huge fad, and HGH is very easy to obtain. Suzanne Somers is a big believer in the use of such agents, as are many other persons whose careers depend upon youth or looking youthful... although it's an expensive way to maintain youth, and according to our FDA, has all sorts of side effects and isn't fully tested, blah, blah, blah.

It's hard to explain a multi-million dollar business of products to mask PED use, if only a small minority of people are using them.

Personally, I do think a lot of athletes use steroids, whether to boost performance, or while in recovery for an injury. And that's their business.

However, there are quite a few very talented athletes that do not use PEDs. They are dedicated to the sport they've chosen, train hard, eat right, and have natural talents or abilities and are smart. That should not be a hard thing to believe.

Congress has no place within this realm unless they're in the process of rethinking prior decisions on the illegal or legal use of such products. Why is any tax dollar being spent on something that has already been decided? If the NBA or NFL fell apart tomorrow, would the nation come to a screeching halt? Absolutely not. So, why is Congress involved?

Furthermore, why is there such a sudden move to undermine the prior accomplishments of anyone in sports that has achieved a high level? I don't understand it.

I can understand banning athletes that test positive while in competition. But why would anyone question an athlete that is already retired?

The world needs good role models... and if a sports figure retires without any black marks against him or her, why would anyone want to dig in order to tarnish that reputation? Kids who have no other avenues to success look up to athletes... why is it anyone who attains success through athletics or sports becomes a target?


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  • Posted by kwoods Cold z7 Long Is (My Page) on
    Tue, Jun 19, 12 at 12:38

"...why is it anyone who attains success through athletics or sports becomes a target?"

Poor millionaires, my heart weeps for them.

Steroids can be really bad if not prescribed and under the care of a doctor. Kids should under no circumstances be experimenting with steroids or HGH. Kids see these athletes and the success that they achieve and I'm sure it's very tempting.

Congress should have no role other than to exert pressure on what has been an industry that is essentially unregulated. Baseball should have cleaned its own house with the help of local law enforcement. The fact is baseball turned a blind eye for many, many years. They had no policy and no testing, although I believe they were fully aware of what was going on. They rode the success of players like Barry Bonds, Mark McGuire and Sammy Sosa to an economic resurgence during the homerun era of the late 90's - 20 oughts. Once it got preposterous with essentially bad players becoming home-run heroes and congress breathing down MLB's neck they had to shut it down. The grandstanding that has followed by both congress and MLB is laughable. The fact is MLB made a whole bunch of money and their "shock!" at the extent of the problem and finger-pointing at individual players is as hypocritical as it gets.


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Our outrage should be for the politicians who lie to us all the time. Maybe they should be brought up on pergury charges.

Lie to us.

We lie to you.


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Jodik said:
Congress has no place within this realm unless they're in the process of rethinking prior decisions on the illegal or legal use of such products. Why is any tax dollar being spent on something that has already been decided?

Congress had EVERY right as well as an affirmative duty to investigate the use of PEDS. And I will discuss why that is the case.

Clemens took an oath in front of Congress and the American people to tell the truth and he just out and out told lie after lie...half truths like stating that his teammate Andy Petite "misremembered" a conversation. If people are suggesting that there should not be a criminal penalty for perjury, I am sorry, but that is just wrong. U.S. citizens of any political persuasion have respect for Congress and the Courts and if they do not, they have to be prosecuted or the entire system of justice i this country will be compromised.

Next, are people here really suggesting that Congress had no interest in addressing the issue of PEDS by simply conducting a hearing and asking questions to these mufti-millionaire players? Do they really want to make this yet another political issue to divide the country? Surely this has to be a joke.

The reasons that Congress was investigating were all legitimate. First, the integrity of major league baseball "America's Great national pastime" was sullied by dopers like Bonds, Sosa, McGuire, Clemens, and Canseco. Baseball is an enormous business in our country and cheating undertmines the games integrity.

Secondly, Congressmen, as OUR REPRESENTATIVES, were asked by many parents of young men to investigate this because of the tremendous health risks for young men who are taking non-prescription PEDS. There are known and unknown risks from these PEDS including suicidal behavior by young players that have taken them.

So yes. these multi-millionaire major league players have a unique responsibility to the country. to baseball fans, and to all young baseball players and their parents to come clean,to obey the rules of MLB, to observe fairness in their profession, and to tell the truth when they are under oath.

They have to observe the "personal responsibility" that the Right often demands of the poor and the downtrodden in this country.

Here is a link that might be useful: Say it ain't so Clemens, you POS.


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The rage among younger athletes these days is inexpensive designer steroids/pro hormones which can be purchased online.

Many people may only be able to gain 20 pounds of muscle in several years, or even a lifetime naturally, but they can achieve this in a 6 week cycle with some pro hormones as well as incredible strength gains.

The use of dangerous pre-workout energy supplements is growing as well.

These same supplements are very popular as diet aids to boost metabolic rates and suppress appetite.


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RE: Should the Govt try athletes for doping?

  • Posted by kwoods Cold z7 Long Is (My Page) on
    Tue, Jun 19, 12 at 13:09

Heri, they didn't even start testing until 2003. You can't blame Bonds, Sosa, McGuire or any of the others that "cheated" wink, wink prior to MLB taking this thing seriously. Steroid abuse wasn't just tolerated, it was encouraged by MLB and led to big paydays for both MLB and individual players. Federal investigation of BALCO was warranted and led to most of the changes. Congress trotting out superstars after the fact? Not so much.

No coincidence that this all went down after the strike shortened season in '94... three years after that debacle you have both Sosa and McGuire break Maris' record... yeah, no coincidence.


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Congress trotting out superstars after the fact? Not so much.

I understand that there is a lot if hypocrisy from inside and outside baseball on this, but unfortunately those hearings were not after the fact. Also, it was the failure of MLB, the Commissioner's office, the teams and the players to police themselves over a lengthy period of time that made this issue rise to the level that it did.

We have a right to get to the bottom of this...not to prosecute these celebrity baseball players (unless they choose to tel lies under oath) but to educate the public about the risks of these drugs to our young athletes.
Major league baseball is a great game and as a fan, I want to see the steroid era ended for good.


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Major League Baseball has an antitrust exemption. That gives Congress the right to investigate them. You may not think Congress should be spending time doing that, but that is a different question. They have the right.

Jodi - it is not as simple as saying eat right, work hard and you don't need to take the drugs. Take 2 somewhat equally talented players. One eats right and has a regimented workout schedule. The other one also does that but takes HGH or other performance enhancing drug. The one not taking the supplement will never be able to keep up with the one taking it in terms of power and strength. Therefore the one taking it will have more base hits, more homeruns.

I agree with heri. I want to see the steriod era gone for good. To those that say fans will tolerate whatever is necessary to see home runs hit, I disagree. I am a huge baseball fan. My family lives and breathes baseball. I want steriods gone from the game. I want the playing field leveled for all players. You make it on your ability and your devotion to what it takes to be a top notch athlete. Not by taking drugs to enhance your performance.

And, as the mother of an 11 year old boy that firmly believes he will be a major league baseball player one day (don't they all!) it is a very difficult subject. I can and do preach that it is bad. It is harmful to your body and should not be taken. He's now 11 and he believes me. But, when he is in high school or college and is competing for a spot on a team, or has a showcase coming up that could determine if he plays in college or not, he may think differently. I want the playing field leveled.


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My question still is... why was Clemen's even standing before Congress in the first place? Why is it a Congressional issue?

Isn't this a case for Law Enforcement? Isn't this a case that the FDA and DEA should investigate?

Congress, I believe, oversteps its role in involving itself in cases that can and should be investigated and heard by other governmental agencies.

I would think this an issue for the courts to decide by individual case, if players are caught. Congress has already played its part as LAW MAKER... why are they now involved in enforcing, as well?

Baseball is a business, nothing more. It has no ties to government. Still, they went out of their way to make a spectacle of the whole thing, waste tax payer dollars, and time, all to place a stamp on Clemen's forehead.

Even if parents want steroids investigated, that's the role of our police and DEA, no? Isn't their role to find out where the kids are getting them from, follow the chain, find the dealers or manufacturers of fake PEDs, etc...

I just don't understand how it becomes a Congressional issue. Given the role of Congress, what is their role in investigating Clemens?

Each state already HAS an athletic commission, as I said earlier, as does the US... it's THEIR job to clean up this mess. Congress has a million other things that they SHOULD be doing!


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Baseball is a business, nothing more. It has no ties to government.

Not true. Baseball has been given special rights because of their antitrust exemption and therefore Congress, who gave them that exemption, has the right to oversee it.

Congress was not trying to get involved in whether Clemens or anyone else committed a crime. They were investigating steroids in baseball and basically threatening baseball with removing its antitrust exemption if they did not clean up the sport. That lead to calling Clemens and others before congress to testify about steriod use in the sport. While testifying before Congress under oath, Congress claimed Clemens lied. That is a no-no and should be investigated and tried. As it was.

I don't even know what a state athletic commission is. It certainly has no say in Major League Baseball.


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Ok. A state athletic commission is basically responsible for the safety of the athletes that participate in certain sports within that state, usually professional unarmed combat sports.

For instance, the Nevada State Athletic Commission regulates all contests or exhibitions that take place within that state... usually Las Vegas. I use them as the example because most boxing and MMA matches are held and televised from there.

These organizations exist mainly to administer the state laws concerning the sports, and maintain the safety and health of both the athletes and the public at such contests or events. They deal mainly with unarmed combat sports, such as boxing, kick-boxing, mixed martial arts, and other combat sports. They deal with licensing, PED testing, officials and inspectors, etc.

They are actually a part of a state's department of business and industry, and fall under that heading.

I don't follow baseball, basketball, hockey, or football... but I'm still a little confused that our Congress is that closely involved with a sport. Since each state within the US has an athletic commission, I'm surprised there isn't one that covers all sports from a Federal point, and heads up all state commissions.

Even so, I would think Congress has more important things to do than make a circus out of baseball.


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Baseball made a circus of itself by turning a blind eye to what was going on. Congress would not have had to get involved if baseball had taken care of the problem. But they didn't. They allowed if to happen and they knew it was happening.


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Except Congress didn't go after MLB. They went after one person. After he testified in front of Congress and denied the charges, Congress told DOJ that they thought he was lying. So they sent the AG after him and brought charges against one person, not major league baseball.

Today, that person was acquitted in a jury trial. In other words, the AGs office was sucking hind wind once again. Roger Clemens may have been doping, but it was Congress who had the testosterone crisis and decided to get into a pissing contest with one person. They lost.

Maybe next year Congress can appropriate funds to buy itself and the DOJ goons a clue, but they probably wouldn't know what a clue looks like.

You don't solve a systemic problem by making one person the whipping boy and harassing him by sending in your goons. If they ain't got the goods they shouldn't be going after anyone. That's an abuse of power. Rightfully, the Feds lost, primarily because they had nothin'. It's a good day.


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No Govt should just fund stadiums


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Civics lesson 101: Federal laws are created by Congress. A court can't decide a case if Congress (in the case of the US) hadn't already created a law in the first place.

So you think just one person was singled out...NOT. Among others, Marion Jones has already served time for perjury, as has the founder of BALCO. Only those suspected of/accused of lying go singled out, as they should have.

The BALCO scandal is a scandal involving the use of banned, performance-enhancing substances by professional athletes. The Bay Area Laboratory Co-operative was a San Francisco Bay Area business accused of supplying anabolic steroids to Major League Baseball players. The incident surrounds a 2002 US Federal government investigation of the laboratory....

A list of major league baseball players, in alphabetical order, linked to performance-enhancing drugs, either through the 2007 report by investigator Senator George Mitchell or by positive drug tests by Major League Baseball or Minor League Baseball. (Note that this is not a list of players who have been proven to use performance-enhancing drugs.)

Chad Allen: Played in majors from 1999-2005 for Twins, Indians, Marlins and Rangers. Linked by ex-Mets clubhouse Kirk Radomski to purchases of steroids. Now plays in Japan. Cooperated with Mitchell investigation.

Carlos Almanzar: Astros pitcher was suspended for 10 days in October 2005 for violating the MLB performance-enhancing drugs policy.

Rick Ankiel: Pitcher-turned-outfielder received human growth hormone in 2004, according to the New York Daily News. Ankiel maintains he took them as part of his recovery from elbow surgery.

Bronson Arroyo: Pitcher told reporters in July 2009 that he took androstenedione and amphetamines from 1998 to 2003, before they were deemed illegal, and could be on the list of players who tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs because of it.

David Bell: Played in majors for 12 seasons, through 2006. According to Sports Illustrated, he bought human chorionic gonadatropin from a pharmacy in April 2005. He maintains he had a prescription.

Marvin Benard: Played for San Francisco from 1995-2003. Mentioned in sections of the Mitchell Report on BALCO as getting "the cream" and "the clear" from Barry Bonds' trainer, Greg Anderson.

Gary Bennett Jr.: Journeyman catcher played for St. Louis in 2007. Linked to Radomski as purchasing human growth hormone. Radomski had a canceled check for $3,200. After the report's release, Bennett admitted he had used HGH.

Rafael Betancourt: Indians reliever was suspended for 10 days in July 2005 for violating the MLB performance-enhancing drugs policy.

Larry Bigbie: Played from 2001-06 for Orioles, Rockies and Cardinals. Linked to Radomski, who had canceled checks for performance-enhancing substances.

Barry Bonds: All-time home run king was mentioned 103 times in the Mitchell Report, and pleaded not guilty to perjury and obstruction of justice charges after a grand jury indictment. Linked to "the cream" and "the clear" through the BALCO scandal and trainer Greg Anderson.

Kevin Brown: Had a 20-year big-league career that ended in 2005. Linked to Radomski for purchasing human growth hormone and Deca-Durabolin from 2001 to 2003 or 2004.

Paul Byrd: Cleveland Indians pitcher acknowledged taking human growth hormone between 2002 and 2005, and said he was prescribed HGH for a pituitary tumor.

Ken Caminiti: The 1996 National League MVP estimated that 50 percent of big-league players were using performance-enhancing substances. Admitted to taking steroids to Sports Illustrated in 2002. Died of a drug overdose in 2004 at age 41.

Jose Canseco: Admitted using steroids, and his book, "Juiced", named several players who were using performance-enhancing substances. Testified to Congress in 2005.

Mark Carreon: Played from 1987-96 for the Mets, Tigers, Giants and Indians. Linked to Radomski as purchasing steroids when Carreon played for the Giants.

Howie Clark: A utility player for the Blue Jays. Linked to Radomski as a purchaser of HGH, paid by money order.

Roger Clemens: The seven-time Cy Young Award winner has 354 wins. Played 2007 season, his 24th in the majors, with the New York Yankees. According to the Mitchell Report, his former strength and conditioning coach, Brian McNamee, injected him several times with steroids from 1998 through 2000, when he played for the Toronto Blue Jays and the Yankees. Clemens denies he ever used steroids. Was indicted in August 2010 for perjury, obstruction of Congress and false statements after testifying before Congress in 2008 that he didn't use PEDs.

Jack Cust: Oakland A's outfielder is tied to steroids from a conversation with teammate Larry Bigbie in the minors in 2003. Bigbie acknowledged that Cust said he had tried steroids.

Brendan Donnelly: Free agent reliever played for Boston in 2007 and was an all-star for the Angels in 2003. Linked to Radomski as a customer for steroids in 2004. Also named in a Red Sox internal e-mail discussing concerns that Donnelly was using performance-enhancing substances.

Chris Donnels: Played from 1991-02 with the Mets, Astros, Red Sox, Dodgers and Diamondbacks. Linked to Radomski, who produced eight canceled checks and money orders for HGH and steroids.

Lenny Dykstra: Played from 1985-96. Linked to Radomski, who said he provided Dykstra with steroids after the 1993 season. Radomski said Dykstra admitted to taking steroids in 1989.

Bobby Estalella: Catcher played from 1996-2004. Reported by San Francisco Chronicle as testifying in the BALCO case, and reportedly told the grand jury he took HGH and undetectable BALCO drugs, provided by Greg Anderson.

Matt Franco: Infielder played from 1995-2003 with the Mets, Cubs and Braves. Radomski said he sold Franco steroids in 2000. Franco denies ever talking or meeting Radomski.

Ryan Franklin: Cardinals reliever was suspended for 10 days in 2005 for violating the steroids policy while pitching for Seattle. Linked to Radomski in the Mitchell report, who said he purchased Anavar and Deca-Durabolin.

Eric Gagne: Retired closer was linked to Radomski as a purchaser of human growth hormone. An internal Boston Red Sox memo obtained in the Mitchell report reports a scout saying that performance-enhancing drugs "IS the issue" with Gagne.

Jason Giambi: The 2000 AL MVP, testified to the BALCO grand jury that he used steroids obtained from Anderson and also used HGH, according to the San Francisco Chronicle. Was interviewed in the Mitchell investigation and said he began using steroids in 2001 and used "the cream" and "the clear" in 2002.

Jeremy Giambi: The younger brother of Jason Giambi, who played from 1998-2003, testified to the BALCO grand jury and was quoted by the Kansas City Star in 2005 as admitting to taking steroids.

Jay Gibbons: Sports Illustrated reported in 2007 that Gibbons, then an Orioles outfielder, received steroids and HGH from Signature Pharmacy in 2003 and 2005. Was suspended for the first 15 days of the 2008 season. Said he was prescribed HGH.

Troy Glaus: Corner infielder for several teams received steroids from Signature Pharmacy in 2003 and 2004, according to Sports Illustrated. Also linked to a prescription for nandrolone and testosterone from the New Hope Health Center by SI.

Jason Grimsley: Pitched from 1989-2006, and admitted to using HGH and steroids, according to a May 2006 affidavit by IRS special agent Jeff Novitzky. Also linked to Radomski, who said he sold HGH and steroids at least seven or eight times, and produced 14 canceled checks from Grimsley from 2001 through 2005. Was suspended for 50 games in June 2006 for violating the MLB performance-enhancing drug policy.

Jose Guillen: Royals outfielder, according to the San Francisco Chronicle, purchased testosterone and other steroids through the Palm Beach Rejuvenation Center multiple times from 2002 and 2004, and possibly 2005, according to the Mitchell report. Suspended by Major League Baseball for the first 15 games of the 2008 season. Has appealed the suspension.

Jerry Hairston Jr: Free agent infielder who has played in the big leagues since 1998, and played for Texas in 2007, purchased HGH from Radomski, who produced one canceled check.

Clay Hensley: Padres pitcher was suspended for 15 games while in the minor leagues for violating the MILB steroids policy.

Felix Heredia: New York Mets reliever was suspended for 10 days in October 2005 for violating the MLB performance-enhancing drugs policy.

Matt Herges: Colorado Rockies reliever is linked to Radomski, who said Herges purchased HGH two or three times from 2004 and 2005.

Glenallen Hill: Played from 1989-2001. Linked to Radomski and a purchaser of HGH. Hill, now the first-base coach for the Rockies, was required to interview with Mitchell and said he purchased a steroid once from Radomski but never used it. Hill said he was suffering from "marital stress" at the time.

Darren Holmes: Relief pitcher played for 13 seasons, the last in 2003. According to Sports Illustrated, Holmes said he received HGH from the Palm Beach Rejuvenation Center in 2003, but the substance was unsolicited and unused.

Todd Hundley: Catcher from 1990-2003 with the Mets, Dodgers and Cubs. Radomski said he sold steroids to Hundley three or four times, beginning in 1996. He hit 15 home runs in 1995 and 41 home runs in 1996.

Yusaku Iriki: Mets minor-league pitcher was suspended for 50 games in April 2006 for violating the MLB performance-enhancing drugs policy.

Ryan Jorgensen: Catcher who played four games for the Reds last year was suspended for 50 games by MLB for violating the league's drug program.

Wally Joyner: The former first baseman for the Angels, Padres and Braves played from 1986 to 2001. He testified in the Mitchell investigation that he took steroids three times, decided he had made a mistake and discarded the rest of the pills.

David Justice: Outfielder played from 1989 to 2002 for the Braves, Indians, Yankees and A's. Linked to Radomski, who said he sold HGH to Justice after the 2000 World Series. Radomski had a canceled check. Also linked to McNamee, who said that Justice told him he received HGH from Radomski.

Chuck Knoblauch: Second baseman played from 1991 to 2002. Linked to McNamee, who said he acquired HGH from Radomski for Knoblauch in 2001. McNamee said he injected Knoblauch at least seven to nine times with HGH.

Tim Laker: Played for the Expos, Orioles, Devil Rays, Pirates and Indians from 1992-2006. Now a manager in the Indians' minor-league system. Linked to Radomski as purchasing steroids. Laker admitted to buying steroids to Mitchell, according to the report, in 1995, 1996, 1997 and 1999. Said he stopped using steroids in 2000.

Paul Lo Duca: Journeyman catcher was linked to Radomski, who said he made six or more transactions with Lo Duca for HGH.

Matt Lawton: Former outfielder from 1995-2006 was suspended for 10 games in November 2005 (first 10 days of 2006) for violating the MLB performance-enhancing drugs policy.

Nook Logan: Free agent outfielder, who played with the Nationals in 2007, is linked to Radomski, who said he sold one kit of HGH to Logan in December 2005. Radomski said Logan paid by money order, and Logan's number was in Radomski's phone when he was raided.

Gary Matthews Jr.: Angels outfielder was linked to a 2004 purchase of HGH from Applied Pharmacy by Sports Illustrated in a 2007 story. The Albany (N.Y.) Times Union reported that Matthews appeared on a customer list of Applied Pharmacy Services, and according to the report, syringes were found by Chad Allen, a teammate, when they shared an apartment in the minors in 2004.

Mark McGwire: Former A's and Cardinals first baseman played from 1987-2001 and hit 583 home runs, including a then-record 70 in 1998. Accused by Canseco in "Juiced" of using steroids. Denied use at first, then confessed in 2010 about his use of steroids, then HGH, off and on beginning in 1989.

Kent Mercker: Pitched from 1989-2006 for the Braves, Orioles, Indians, Reds, Cardinals, Red Sox, Angels, Rockies, Reds and Cubs. Linked to Radomski, who said he sold one kit of HGH to him in 2002. A canceled check allegedly from Merker was not legible.

Sergio Mitre: Relief pitcher, who pitched for the Florida Marlins in 2008, was suspended for the first 50 games of the 2009 season for taking a supplement that contained Androstenedione.

Augustin Montero: Former White Sox reliever was suspended for 10 days in April 2005 for violating the MLB performance-enhancing drugs policy.

Mike Morse: Mariners shortstop was suspended for 10 days in September 2005 for violating the MLB performance-enhancing drugs policy.

Guillermo Mota: Mets reliever was suspended for the first 50 games of the 2007 season for violating the MLB performance-enhancing drugs policy. Was suspended for 100 games in 2012 when he tested positive for the Clenbuterol.

Denny Neagle: A pitcher from 1991-2003 for the Twins, Pirates, Braves, Reds, Yankees and Rockies. Linked to Radomski, who said he sold HGH and steroids to Neagle five or six times.

David Ortiz: Red Sox designated hitter was on the 2003 list of players who tested positive for PEDs.

Rafael Palmeiro: Hit 569 home runs in 20 seasons from 1986-2005. Told Congress he never took steroids when he testified in 2006, but tested positive for stanozolol and was suspended for 10 days by MLB. He has denied intentionally taking steroids, implicating then-teammate Miguel Tejada, saying a vitamin that was given to him by Tejada might have been tainted. Also named in Canseco's book.

Jim Parque: Former White Sox pitcher admitted to taking HGH while rehabilitating from a shoulder injury in 2003.

Ronny Paulino: Florida Marlins catcher was suspended for 50 games in August 2010 for testing positive for a banned substance that he said was a banned dietary pill for weight loss.

Andy Pettitte: New York Yankees pitcher who finished his 13th season in 2007 recently signed a 1-year, $16 million contract for 2008. Linked by McNamee, who said he injected Pettitte with HGH that was obtained from Radomski on two to four occasions when Pettitte was rehabilitating an injury. Pettitte admitted he used HGH following the report's release.

Adam Piatt: Outfielder for the A's and Devil Rays from 2000-03. Linked to Radomski, and cooperated with the Mitchell investigation. Piatt took responsibility, saying he bought steroids and HGH but didn't use them for a while, fearing health risks. He said he injected himself beginning in the 2002 offseason. Radomski produced eight canceled checks from Piatt.

Jorge Piedra: Former Rockies outfielder was suspended for 10 days in April 2005 for violating the Major League performance-enhancing drug policy.

Todd Pratt: Played for Phillies, Mets, Cubs and Braves from 1992-2006. Linked to Radomski, who said he sold Pratt small doses of steroids one or two times.

Manny Ramirez: Outfielder was suspended for 50 days in on May 7, 2009 as a member of the Dodgers for violating the MLB performance-enhancing drugs policy. He tested positive for chorionic gonadatropin (HCG), typically a drug females take for fertility issues. But the drug is also known to be taken by male steroid users in order to restart their body's natural production of testosterone. He faced a second suspension as a member of the Rays on April 9, 2011 for another positive test, but retired when faced with a 100-game suspension.

Juan Rincon: Twins pitcher was suspended for 10 days in May 2005 for violating the MLB performance-enhancing drugs policy.

Armando Rios: Outfielder from 1998-2003 for the Giants and White Sox. Linked to the BALCO case by the San Francisco Chronicle as telling a federal agent that he purchased HGH and testosterone from Greg Anderson.

Brian Roberts: Orioles second baseman, according to the Mitchell report, he told Larry Bigbie that he injected himself with steroids once or twice in 2003. He admitted he took steroids once, after the report was released.

John Rocker: Former reliever, whose career ended in 2003, was linked to a prescription for HGH by Sports Illustrated in 2003. Denies ever having an HGH prescription.

Alex Rodriguez: Yankees slugger tested positive for two steroids in an anonymous 2003 drug test, according to a Feb. 7, 2009 Sports Illustrated story. Two days later, Rodriguez admitted that the story was true, and that he took steroids from 2001-03.

Ivan Rodriguez: Accused by Jose Canseco in his book, saying he injected Rodriguez when both players played for the Texas Rangers. Rodriguez denied the allegation and has never tested positive, nor was he named in the Mitchell Report.

J.C. Romero: Phillies relief pitcher was suspended for the first 50 games of the 2009 season for taking 6-OXO Extreme, a banned supplement.

Juan Salas: Rays pitcher was suspended for 50 games in May 2007 for violating the MLB performance-enhancing drugs policy.

F.P. Santangelo: An infielder from 1995-2001 with the Expos, Giants, Dodgers and A's. Linked to Radomski as a purchaser of HGH and steroids. Radomski had a canceled check from 2000.

Benito Santiago: Former All-Star catcher who played from 1986-2005, he testified to the BALCO grand jury that he received HGH and an injectable steroid from Greg Anderson, according to the San Francisco Chronicle.

Scott Schoenweis: Mets reliever received six shipments of steroids in 2003 and 2004 from Signature Pharmacy, according to ESPN.com. Schoenweis, a cancer survivor, denies ever receiving shipments from the pharmacy.

David Segui: First baseman from 1990-2004 for the Orioles, Mets, Expos, Mariners, Blue Jays, Rangers, Indians admitted he used HGH with a doctor's prescription to the Baltimore Sun and said he bought steroids from Radomski.

Gary Sheffield: Detroit Tigers designated hitter told HBO that he took "the clear" and "the cream" when working out with Barry Bonds, but said he didn't know they were steroids.

Sammy Sosa: Slugger, sixth on the all-time home run list at the time of his retirement, played with the Cubs in 2003 when he tested positive for a banned substance, according to a report by the New York Times in June 2009. Sosa testified before Congress in 2005 that he never took steroids.

Mike Stanton: Reds reliever, best known for pitching for the Braves and Yankees, is linked to Radomski, who recalls selling HGH to Stanton in 2003, who paid by money order and by cash.

Ricky Stone: Pitched for the Reds in 2007. Is named in the Mitchell report as injecting himself with steroids before a game in 1999 with Matt Herges, Paul Lo Duca, Jeff Williams and Mike Judd, according to a minor league strength coach.

Jamal Strong: Former Mariners outfielder was suspended for 10 games in April 2005 for violating the MLB performance-enhancing drug policy.

Miguel Tejada: Longtime big-league shortstop, the 2005 AL MVP was implicated by Rafael Palmeiro as a steroid user after Rafael Palmeiro tested positive, and he was also named by former teammate Adam Piatt, who said he obtained steroids and HGH for Tejada. Was charged with lying to Congress in February 2009.

Ismael Valdez: Pitcher from 1994-2005, mostly for the Dodgers, bought HGH and other performance-enhancing drugs in 2002 from the Palm Beach Rejuvenation Center, according to an San Francisco Chronicle report.

Mo Vaughn: First baseman for the Red Sox, Angels and Mets from 1991-2003, and the 1995 AL MVP. Linked to Radomski, who said Vaughn purchased HGH. Radomski produced three canceled checks from Vaughn.

Randy Velarde: An infielder from 1987-2002. He's linked to the BALCO investigation. The San Francisco Chronicle reported in 2004 that Velarde received steroids and HGH from BALCO, according to information given to federal investigators.

Ron Villone: Free agent reliever, who pitched for the Yankees in 2007, is linked to Radomski, who said Villone purchased HGH from him in 2004 and 2005.

Fernando Vina: Second baseman played from 1993-2004. Current ESPN commentator is linked to Radomski, who said he sold HGH to Vina six to eight times from 2000 to 2005. Radomski produced three canceled checks from Vina. After the report's release, Vina admitted he used HGH.

Edinson Volquez: Pitcher was suspended for 50 games in 2010 following a positive test for a banned fertility substance. The Cincinnati Reds pitcher said he received a prescription in the Dominican Republic as part of his treatment to start a family with his wife.

Rondell White: Recently retired after a 15-year career. Linked to Radomski, who said White bought HGH and steroids. Radomski produced seven canceled checks from White in the Mitchell investigation.

Matt Williams: A third baseman from 1987-2003 with the Giants, Indians and Diamondbacks and now an Arizona broadcaster. The San Francisco Chronicle reported that he bought $11,600 worth of HGH and steroids in 2002. Williams said a doctor advised him to try HGH to rehabilitate an injured ankle.

Gregg Zaun: Blue Jays catcher is linked to the Jason Grimsley case and to Radomski, who said he received a check from Zaun in 2001 for steroids. Zaun also is linked to former Expos bullpen catcher Luis Perez, who told investagators that he supplied steroids to Zaun and seven other major-league players.

Here is a link that might be useful: mlb final report


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RE: Should the Govt try athletes for doping?

Lionheart, I agree... if Congress IS to involve itself, doesn't it seem prudent to go after the sport as a whole, to eliminate or get a handle on PED use?

But I notice in much of what our government does, there's always a fall guy, a scape goat, and the rest walk away... and they somehow feel they've not only appeased the public, but done their job.

I beg to differ.

They haven't done a thing about PED use by professionals, who will continue using... and if testing becomes more stringent, the market for products to hide PED use will be a few steps ahead of the game. That's how it works.


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RE: Should the Govt try athletes for doping?

Lionheart - if you think this was all about congress going after one person you weren't following the process. Many people testified before congress. Congress believed Clemens lied. They charged and tried him for. That is what is supposed to happen.

Jodi- congress has done a lot to get rid of steroids in baseball. Without their investigation nothing would have changed. Stricter rules are now in place. They will start testing for HGH for the first time. It's not a perfect system. There will always be cheaters. There will always be new drugs that are harder to detect. But it is better than it was before when it was ignored.


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RE: Should the Govt try athletes for doping?

  • Posted by kwoods Cold z7 Long Is (My Page) on
    Wed, Jun 20, 12 at 11:08

Federal investigation as in BALCO etc.. Fine. Should have gone farther and investigated the complicity of MLB but, fine. Independent investigation by Mitchell... a little disingenuous but ok, I get it, fine.

"Without their investigation nothing would have changed. Stricter rules are now in place."

New rules were already in place prior to 2005's "Restoring Faith in America's Pastime" hearings. The policies now in place are not a result of congressional testimony or federal legislation but were reached through collective bargaining between the Player's Association and Major League Baseball.... same as they are through all other national sports leagues. With each new collective bargaining agreement the policies continue to evolve.

Baseball started policing itself in 2003 with testing and a comprehensive policy on performance enhancing drugs only after investigative journalists broke the BALCO story. Google Lance Williams and Mark Fainaru-Wada. Then MLB started its own independent investigation "The Mitchell Report". Clemmons wasn't called before congress until 2008.

Trotting out superstars before congress... what did it accomplish? What did the prosecution of Clemmons accomplish? What did the "Restoring Faith..." hearings accomplish? I understand Bonds was convicted of obstruction for his testimony before a grand jury, as he should have been but that has nothing to do with Congress and the dog and pony show they later put on.


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RE: Should the Govt try athletes for doping?

So, in some of these cases MLB itself took action against the players after drug tests, so it sounds like MLB, not Congress, was taking action to find doping. Those were based on tests (aka 'hard evidence'). This implies that there is some sort of process in place already for testing athletes and doling out consequences.

Some testified in front of Congress, saying what bad boys there were at one time or another. These Congressional hearings are usually set up to shame and embarrass people while making Congress look like stern, but concerned, parents.

How many of the above suspensions were a result of dragging people in front of Congress? Sounds like most of them were the result of members failing drug tests administered by their own organizations, not Congress.

Aside from hosting a Festival of Public Humiliation, exactly what purpose did this serve? Instead of convicting Clemens, the feds look like the sad sacks of manure they really are. Seriously, they had one -- count 'em -- one witness against Clemens, and his testimony was easily dismantled by the defense, since he was being chased by the feds and wanted to bargain his way out by giving up Clemens.

You could make the argument that there's not enough testing and/or the punishments are not severe enough. That's a great debate to have. But before your government harasses someone for 5 years and then goes to trial, they should have a wee bit more than one easily-impeachable witness.

The Feds looked like rank amateurs. And they keep wasting taxpayer money to look like clowns.


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RE: Should the Govt try athletes for doping?

The discussion is focused on baseball something I know nothing about but government involvement in performance enhancing drugs is subject I can address.Don't forget that when Russia, East Germany and China etc. were all trying to prove that Communism improved athletic performance meanwhile systematically doping its athletes, they didn't win everything. I doubt that the US and others actually supplied the drugs to its athletes, merely turned a blind eye. Things get doubly complicated when, in a sport where doping of the most bizarre sort is the norm someone like Lance Armstrong wins the TDF seven times while claiming that he never used anything. I think there is nationalism involved in most International sports by most countries so when winning at all cost becomes the aim watch out for corruption at all levels.


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RE: Should the Govt try athletes for doping?

It is true baseball added testing before the congressional hearings. And, of course, that has to be done through collective bargaining with the player's association. But the original penalties were laughable. The penalties have recently (last few years?) gotten a lot tougher. And there is a new agreement to start testing for HGH. I don't think any of that would have happened (or at least would have taken a lot longer) if Congress had not investigated.

I am not interested in arguing the Clemens case. They obviously did not have enough evidence to convict because he got off. Clearly a bad job. I'm just saying Congress has the right to investigate the sport. And they can do multiple things at the same time, so I don't/didn't have a problem with them doing it. And I believe that by doing that, the commissioner of baseball and the player's association knew they had to clean up the sport and came to agreement on more testing and tougher penalties. And in the end, I think that is a good thing.

The above suspensions were all as a result of players failing drug tests. The timing of their tests and the length of their suspensions (for some) were an indirect result of the Congressional hearings.


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RE: Should the Govt try athletes for doping?

Some countries don't even test for performance enhancing drugs pre-event. Japan and Brazil are among those countries.

Most international sports are tested through WADA, such as Olympic sports.

There's a lot of controversy within Mixed Martial Arts and Boxing at this time because of how certain state commissions handle the various cases of steroid use, testing, and disciplinary actions.

In a few cases, highly unnatural amounts of testosterone were found when testing the athletes pre-fight, but all they received were slaps on the wrists and small fines. They went before the commission and had their licenses restored, or suspensions lifted so they could compete.

On the other hand, one fighter was tested and found to have a trace of a chemical compound that at one time in the past had been THC, but there was no way to prove by the testing when it appeared. It amounted to 50 metabolites of a broken down chemical compound that isn't even performance enhancing. So, in other words, what they found amounted to nothing... something anyone might be found with if they've attended a party or been within an area where marijuana had been smoked, even if they never participated. This athlete had the book thrown at him, was fined a huge amount, and suspended for a full year... while the others busted for steroid use got away with it, were very lightly fined and/or were allowed to return to their sport.

Statement made in an election year? Trying to keep a disliked athlete from participating? Cronyism? Corruption? All of the above?

It is known widely that many athletes use PEDs. It is also known, though a little known fact, that many athletes use marijuana during training to help with concentration. They stop using a specific amount of time before an event.

I think people have varying impressions of steroids, and may view them as bad things in all cases, because they don't realize that some serve positive purposes. Some types are utilized in the medical field for help in injury recovery. Others are used in training, but there are good types and bad types, and right and wrong ways to utilize them.

If you've ever taken Prednisone, you've taken a type of steroid. There are several different types of steroids, and some have legitimate uses.

Like anything else, it's an industry in which people want to make money, so counterfeit mixtures are bought and sold under the radar... steroids meant for animal use are sold, or what you're buying black market might not even contain a steroid, but might be just the carrier fluid, or vegetable oil. One can't be sure unless one gets them from a medical professional, and cycles them properly.

Certain steroids do have their uses, but using them to enhance performance within a sport is so far illegal. Why aren't all athletes tested pre-game or pre-event? And why must Congress make a circus out of it, when we already have agencies in place that are capable of dealing with this?


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RE: Should the Govt try athletes for doping?

Until the recent past, it was NOT illegal to use performance enhancing drugs in baseball. Baseball had NO rules against it.

When the Balco thing happened, baseball instituted some rules. Those rules were laughable as the penalties were so insignificant it didn't matter.

Congress investigated steriod use in baseball. Congress did not prosecute anyone for steriod use. Congress prosecuted Clemens for perjury.

Clemens was already long retired when he was called before Congress. Congress did not try to keep a disliked athlete from participating.

Steriods that are perscribed by a doctor for legitimate medical reasons are allowed in baseball. The player must first get the approval of MLB, but if the need is really medical, they can take them.

Players are tested. The testing is random. The frequency of testing has increased. The times they can be tested has increased (they can now be tested in the off season). The penalties for failing have been increased substantially. The 1st offense is a 50 game suspension, which is almost 1/3 of the season. Second offense is 100 games. 3rd is lifetime ban. I believe (don't quote me on this one), the 1st offense used to be like 10 games or something ridiculuous.

Baseball is not an international sport (well, I guess it sort of is since there are Canadian teams), but it's not like the olympics. It's not like boxing where each state has its own rules. It is controlled by Major League Baseball. Same as NFL, NHL and NBA are controlled by themselves. There is a commissioner. There are player associations in each league. Rules are negotiated through collective bargaining agreements.

Congress getting involved lead to tougher testing and tougher penalties. The sport is better now than it was before. I don't see how anyone can say that's a bad thing. You may not care because you are not interested in baseball, but it does not mean Congress wasted their time. Like I said, they always work on multiple things at once as they should. As we all do in our daily lives and jobs.


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RE: Should the Govt try athletes for doping?

  • Posted by kwoods Cold z7 Long Is (My Page) on
    Thu, Jun 21, 12 at 15:30

"Congress getting involved lead to tougher testing and tougher penalties."

No, not the hearings anyway. That was pure theater.

MLB implemented random testing in the minor leagues in 2001. The federal investigation of BALCO (begins 2002, indictments in feb 2004) and subsequent independent investigation by George Mitchell led to negotiated reforms between MLB and the Player's Association which allowed testing in 2003. In the 2003 basic agreement steroids were included in the drug policy for the first time. Steroids were tested for in the 2003 season with no sanctions for those caught cheating.... that's because what MLB negotiated in the agreement was that if more than 5% tested positive sanctions could be imposed in the 2004 season.

In 2004 players testing positive were compelled to receive treatment "clinical track, administrative track" if they failed a subsequent test or didn't comply with treatment they got suspended.

In Jan 2005 the owners decided on a 10 day suspension for the first positive test and the release of the player's name to the public. The CBA has continued to evolve up until this day with sanctions becoming more severe and testing to include HGH.

Congress was late to the game, March of 2005 "Restoring Faith In America's Pastime" where they trotted out superstars and fawned over them. That was all a show put on for the public, even the name of the hearing alludes to its purpose. They didn't call Clemmons (who I despise) until 2008 when baseball had already cleaned up its act. I believe they saw him as recalcitrant and sought to "punish" or publicly humiliate him individually.... not the job of congress. I believe he lied and got away with it... if so lying to congress is really, really stupid.... but he should not have been called in the first place.


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