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Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

Posted by tobr24u z6 RI (My Page) on
Fri, Jun 22, 12 at 6:38

The case of the elderly bus monitor being bullied by middle schoolers is just the most recent example of bullying. This comes after all of the news about bullying and the programs developed to curtail it. Thus, it seems to be that bullying is part of the adolescent repertoire of behavior that is built in and may give way in adult life, but not always. Your thoughts don't have to agree with mine but surely they might...


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Fri, Jun 22, 12 at 6:52

I read and watched the video about the children bullying this 68 year old woman. What type of children are people raising?

The sad thing is the woman never reported the incident (where was the bus driver???) and it only came to light when these foul mouthed teens posted it on you tube.

SMH

Here is a link that might be useful: source


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

In my opinion, it all begins at home with parental attention and discipline. Children only learn by the examples they're given and by how we raise them.

I had an interesting call last night from an old friend... they had to call my eldest son to retrieve some paperwork that my daughter-in-law had picked up for us... to make a long story short, he praised us for how well our son "has his head screwed on right and turned out very well" to use his words, and how lovely his family is. We were very proud to hear those words coming from someone who hadn't seen the kids since they were much younger. He had all sorts of good things to say... and that sure makes us feel like we did a very good job raising them... even through a messy divorce from a mother who didn't want them, wouldn't support them, and continually messed with their heads, using them for her own ends. One would think that might mess up kids terribly. It does, but a family can get past that with a good balance of love and discipline, and lots of attention and time spent.

I think that too often these days, kids are left to their own devices... or not given decent examples to live by... or a myriad of other issues, including not enough attention paid or enough communication between parent and child.

Bullies seem to come from environments where bullying is part of the equation. And then there's usually a ringleader, and the rest are followers... or there's peer pressure involved.

I don't know... those are just my opinions on the matter.


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

Only the ones that do it.


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

I think bullies are not just a result of children witness parents doing the same, but also a result of weak parenting where children are coddled. The word, "No," starting as young as six months does wonders!


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
Fri, Jun 22, 12 at 6:52

I read and watched the video about the children bullying this 68 year old woman. What type of children are people raising?

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My thoughts exactly.

Posted by houseful (My Page) on
Fri, Jun 22, 12 at 9:28

I think bullies are not just a result of children witness parents doing the same, but also a result of weak parenting where children are coddled. The word, "No," starting as young as six months does wonders!

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Ditto.

I don't think children are particularly inclined to be bullies, people just do what they can get away with, if they're sorry excuses for a human being.

Largely, parents are responsible for how their children turn out. Not always--sometimes a parent can do everything right and the child still have serious character flaws and exhibit poor behavior and make indulgent and selfish decisions.

I know that I am grateful that I could give up my career to stay at home and make sure that my children got absolutely every advantage of a supervising parent in their lives as much as possible and I worked diligently every day to try to set a good example and explain to them the choices they had and that others had and pointed out those at every opportunity. At the time it drove my daughters nuts with my continual commentary when they were three and six years old and I was explaining life choices to them while in the grocery store, but I can guarantee you that there was no way they would have ever acted like those bullies on the bus and they now tell me they're grateful for all of that conversation, instruction, and discipline. We were a close family, honest, available, and put our children's development as human beings ahead of our own wants and needs, which I think many people do not do.

Life is a series of tradeoffs--tradeoff your personal desires and indulgences for being a responsible parent and you get adolescents tormenting, cursing, insulting, taunting and harassing an elderly grandmother minding her own business.


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Why doesn't anyone mention peer pressure? I have seen first hand the influence just one little monster can have on a group that is figuring out the pecking order.The excitement and fear of the group dynamic is very intoxicating and being the one who can induce others to behave with intimidation and violence is even more exciting.

Separating the ringleaders from their followers is a logical first step but only the first.


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

No, of course, not all adolescents are hard-wired to bully. But children and teens can be quite susceptible to peer pressure, as Jodik mentioned. There can be multiple causes, apart from that, e.g. lack of parents setting good role models, lack ot parents teaching respect for adults, in particular, the elderly. But I feel also that this is just another example of the increasing coarsening of American society.Adults must model that they have control of their own behaviors. Often, they don't.

And we know that kids, if bullied, will often pass it along and bully others, later on in live.


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

I wonder if teasing and bullying are the same thing? It is a guarantee that if a sensitive kid responds to teasing by crying or shrieking, the teasing will continue. This happens within a family and at school and I think initially it is done because of the dramatic response, those less likely to respond don't get teased. I wonder if bullying is the same? How do bullies select their victims?


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

I think children are becoming a product of their adult training, so I think they are hardwired to do what they are trained to think.

The older I get the more I think I am becoming my parents. There is no conversation between the parents and children. They eat at different times. They are all in their rooms and learning their values and how to relate to normal everyday actions from TV, Internet, whatever they can pick up from their friends who are getting their info from the same devices.

We discussed the restaurant thing how children are running wild and the parents are sitting there and do not notice that they are not respecting the other people in the restaurant.

There was also someone that said that just because they had a child with a disability never occurred to them there were others in a store/public that could also have a disability so where is the consideration for the other person. It is all about what your child wants to do and you will impose whatever problems you have and it should be accepted. That example not only showed the adult felt it was okay it traveled to the sibling that it is okay because he/she had a disabled sibling. So everyone should be okay with the situation. Why because????

Whatever I want there is no consideration from the adults in children lives that demonstrate that the world is not about just what you or your child wants to do or feel you have a right to do.


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I would put it this way: most adults are at least moderately well socialized, but who hasn't done some pretty outrageous things as a teen-ager?


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Fri, Jun 22, 12 at 12:03

Well it seems the little darlins are finding themselves on the receiving end of threats and bully behavior and they are terribly sorry for their actions ... and this elderly lady is asking the police not to charge them and for the threats to stop.

I hope they really are considering that this could have been their own grandmothers who had been treated this way and that they learned a valuable lesson because this is NOT IMO normal teenage outrageous behavior.

Here is a link that might be useful: source


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

I do think a certain part of the population is predisposed to bully and I also think that effective parenting can nip this undesirable trait in the bud before it gets exercised into a permanent part of that person's personality-rather like working with a shy child to help them become more out going. The bully stands a chance of becoming the CEO of somee major cooperation-a fate worse than death in my opinion.


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Kids are predisposed to quite a bit of anti-social behavior. That's why the NEED parents. It's the same way in the rest of the animal kingdom.


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

Marquest,

When it comes to children with disabilities, what experience do you have?

Have you ever been with a quiet, peaceful child who suffers from autism only to have them break down in seconds, all because of the environment? Of course you haven't. You've only had typical children to deal with, which then fits your idea of expected behavior.

Families with autistic children don't use their disability as an excuse. It's a fact of life! They can behave quite well, until something triggers them to react, panic, etc. Would you prefer they be kept locked up?

Watch this and it may help you get a grip on your prejudices towards children with autism, etc.

How can you help? Stop judging what you don't understand. I won't spend more time explaining Idic15 Autism, because you're not interested in facts, just your own condemnation of children who can't control their emotions or bodies due to a mental illness.

Here is a link that might be useful: Pay close attention.


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I actually can say I never did any outrageous things as a kid, and neither did either of my kids. I cannot imagine raising kids and seeing them treat that bus monitor like that. I wouldn't talk to an animal in that tone. If I were their parents summer would be hell for them. They'd have a punishment that would make them never again in their lives treat people like that.

I agree parenting is passe. NO is never said. People just distract kids when they're misbehaving or think it's cute. Discipline is a bad word. Parents today want to be best friends with their kids. .


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

Brush I would answer you if you ever come back and comment after you make statements. You are famous for making your blanket statements and run for the hills. Hide you head in the sand and never seen until the next topic you can make a blanket statement to run from. If I say something I am strong enough to respond and explain my answer.

If you come back and say you really want an answer about my family experience let me know. You can even email me and I can give you some info. I have a lot of experience. I will say not once did he have to suffer being placed in a position of being stared at because of his disability and his sisters and brothers never had to explain he had a problem to people and he was never locked up and at 50 years old he is still not locked up.

You can go back into hiding now until the next topic.


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

I actually can say I never did any outrageous things as a kid, and neither did either of my kids.

Unless you were with them every second of every day you can't really know.


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

Their behavior was reprehensible, that is absolutely not in question. However, I do not think you can take this one incident and automatically blame the parents or state that the kids are devil spawn.

I suspect that this is a situation where things likely just escalated and it is not that hard for me to imagine things happening like that. I can tell you as a kid I said some rotten stuff from time to time, things that I was not proud of and would love to take back and honestly had no idea where it came from.

It is also reprehensible that these kids are receiving threats. That too is bullying and should not be happening and there should be outrage at that as well.

Another issue that needs to be discussed is why the monitor herself did not bring this to the attention of the proper school officials, to those who have the power to affect change. What is within the power structure that kept this from happening? What can we do to change this? I do hope that she receives the money that has been pledged to her and I do hope that it can make a positive difference in her life.


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

all people are prone to bullying it is how all people and animals fight for dominance. bullying is genetic. watch two brothers fight or two sisters. bullying is how humans fight for dominance.


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I dont't think most kids are bullies, but I do think most kids are weak. And I think kids of today are especially weak, which is why bullies go unchallenged. Imo, we are raising a generation of soft children whom we protect from feeling any pain, when, frankly, "doing the right thing" is often painful. And the children teetering on the edge, wanting to do the right thing, will usually do the right thing if there are only a few courageous leaders in their midst.

"Courage is the first of human virtues because it makes all others possible." - Aristotle

"It takes a great deal of courage to stand up to your enemies; but a great deal more to stand up to your friends.." - J. K. Rowling (Spoken by Dumbledore)

"Courage is a quality so necessary for maintaining virtue, that it is always respected, even when it is associated with vice." - Samuel Johnson

"Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." - C.S. Lewis


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

I was cognizant of how and when young people started getting into trouble.

What I realized was that that happens at the point that the child cares more what his peers think about him than his parents.

I vowed not to let that happen.

I did not.

So peer pressure, while present, does not have to be a factor if the parents do their best to make sure that the child is always more concerned with what their parents think about them than their friends.


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

Anybody read Lord Of The Flies?

The premise laid out in the book applies to all humans.

We have to be vigilant in preventing those who have bullied in order to protect our own selves - and there has to be consequences severe enough to make them think about not doing it, plus some real therapy to re-teach them to use the empathy and compassion they seem willing to suspend at times.

I suspect that if we all know what our kids did (or did not do when they should have done) and how they behaved in some instances when we were not around, we would be CRUSHED by disappointment and the feeling of failure.

Anyone who is positive that their kid wouldnt .....insert action or belief or feeling or behavior here..... is a person who thinks they can really completely know another or has an ego which doesn't allow room for the failing of another who has been under their wing.

We don't know what our kids do when they are away from us but we can hope that any mistakes made are mistakes they willing to learn from and not to repeat. That is the best we can hope for.

But no matter what they might TELL us, we don't know and probably never will and the not knowing is probably best. Because our kids will never tell us what they know we don't want to hear about behavior or even opinions that would deeply disturb us or anger us or cause negative judgement or maybe make us see them in a different light.

It's unrealistic to think that they would.

We just aren't that powerful as individuals or as parents - but as loving parents we are easily manipulated by our kids into thinking what we need to think about exactly who our kids are up to this point.

Our kids probably and hopefully grow into the basically decent, caring, compassionate and loving people they will hopefully be, but it's a growing process. They certainly don't leave home for college etc. as the finished product we might like to think we are sending out there. We are sending out seeds into the world - and hopefully they will flower and flourish.


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

Thank you, Woodnymph... I did mention peer pressure... proving that some people aren't reading before responding.

I recall our school bus drivers taking no crap from any student, regardless of the grade level, and after a certain amount of warnings, kids who disrupted the rides to and from school were no longer allowed to ride the bus, and had to make other arrangements to get to school.

Either that, or the bus driver would pull over, and we'd sit there and wait until the ruckus was over. Our bus drivers were not about to let anyone get away with anything like that, and I can't imagine it being ignored.

It's my opinion that there are too many kids running the show, instead of the other way around, with the parents in charge. Coddling a child never did that child any good, and misbehavior isn't "cute". I think if parents coddle or neglect to discipline, it sets the children up for all kinds of issues later in life... parents can't seem to say "no", as was mentioned above.

Sure, we did our share of crazy things as kids and teens, but we never intentionally hurt anyone... like the bullies in the article. We never did that type of thing. That was horribly mean.

I was on the receiving end of teasing, though... and actually had the neighborhood bully throw a rock that hit my head. It cut me, left a huge goose egg, and made me bleed. I could see by his home life why he felt the need to bully, to hurt others. He was neglected by his family, who were too busy to give him any time. They just left him run wild.

As a parent, you can't be your child's best friend. It simply doesn't work that way. Children need boundaries, schedules, proper socialization, manners, etc... and it's hard to draw that line in the sand if you're trying to act your child's age, or be their best friend.


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I had this conversation with my daughter tonight, and she was appalled at the kids who are her son's age. She asked him, and of course he said it was horrible, but she told me she knew he'd never be mean like that, she only hoped he'd stand up and stop the abuse.


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Sat, Jun 23, 12 at 6:35

...the very ones on this thread finding excuses for this horrible behavior may well have showed what the problem is in this country. Take me to task, but I blame only one place for this and that is the "home".

Frankly although I know how to behave in public (and taught my children well) these punks would have never made me cry and feel ashamed ... I would have given them something to film. Hey at almost the same age as this lady, what do I have to lose.

Obviously some people parent and others breed.

Can you tell how disgusted I am with excuses of peer pressure etal?


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

OM, I think there is no doubt that parenting is immensely and irreplaceably important in uncountable ways.

However, in specific cases of abnormally bad behavior from children or teen-agers, I doubt that it can always be linked to abnormally negligent parenting.


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

By peer pressure, what I'm saying is that there is a definite bully ringleader who behaves poorly... and there are others who go along for the ride, either afraid of the bully, or just going along with the crowd... it's definitely not an excuse for poor behavior, but more an explanation for why some of it happens.

There is no excuse for such terrible behavior... but there are plenty of reasons for it.


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

I understand ohiomom's point. I had the same thought when peer pressure was mentioned. Not because it is not true but because it seems people jumped to that as an excusable expected reason.

I worked for a program for at risk teens and we did a group job interview. Candidate was given an example of a incident we had and asked what he though of that type of behavior? and What did he think would be the appropriate action?

He said "kids will be kids". We should separate the offenders from the target and give them a timeout.

Not one in that group of 8 doing the group interview thought he was appropriate for the job. We all looked at each other and said...KIDS WILL BE KIDS????

The incident was,.....This was a training facility that these teens lived on site dorm situation and at night groups would do what they called a "blanket party". A group would attack kids if they thought they were gay by putting a blanket over them and hit them and push them around the room.


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Sat, Jun 23, 12 at 17:04

Since adults are still conducting wars, well...


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

Yes, adolescents are hard-wired to bully, as a basic primate method of achieving social status. "I pull you down to lift me up" type thinking. But nurture overcomes nature here and most well-LEARNED children do not bully, as they are TAUGHT the moral behavior of "do unto others ...," while bullies never gain that sense of empathy during childhood and rely on their atavistic behaviors.


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I liked your little story Demi. I am a VERY involved parent as well. We were reading a book about bullying at bed time and I took that opportunity to tell my kids about the bus monitor and how I would never expect them to join in if they witnessed a thing like that. An ounce of prevention....

Actually, I would rather stay home and eat ramen noodles than let my kids take the bus. Even if you have raised them right, there is too much wildness on these buses. Some of the things I have heard make me cringe.

It gets harder and harder to raise kids.


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

Nope; I don't think so. Kids are people, and people are innately good.


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Sat, Jun 23, 12 at 21:39

....a little update on this and other harassment cases involving students.

What was also said to the bus monitor Mrs. Klein: "One student taunted: "You don't have a family because they all killed themselves because they don't want to be near you."

Klein's oldest son killed himself 10 years ago"

SMH

Here is a link that might be useful: kids will be kids????


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

OM..Me too. I would have given those little punks something to think about too. I would not have sat there like a victim and taken the abuse.

But Mrs Klein is having the last laugh by having $558,000 raised for her plus a Disney trip for eight and free airfare there. Maybe she can retire now and let sone other poor soul take the abuse.


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

I am not defending these little snots by no means but are we looking at this situation with a cross eye.

Children vs Adult. Bully vs respect. The more I read and see this incident I am puzzled why it is being thought of that an adult is bullied by kids.

I have been called some really nasty things by kids. I did not think of them as bullying me. My response to the demeaning comments shut the little darlings up very fast. I was able to turn it around that they did not feel so good. Kids are not that secure with themselves. You can shut them down being an adult you have the power.

I felt sorry for the woman but if she was a monitor what help was she or could be if the little snots were attacking one of their peers on the bus. If she could not handle the situation directed at her how was she going to protect another young child that does not have years of life experience and confidence developed yet that I feel an adult has developed? What was her responsibility as bus monitor? Just sit there and to document what happens?

I would be curious what her duties and responsibility would have been if a kid needed her help or intervention. I think the school has a hiring problem of selecting appropriate personnel.

I am feeling more that bully is becoming a over used excuse for bad behavior that is not being corrected quick and appropriately.

Watching the video I started to think she encouraged the attack by not addressing the situation appropriately at the onset.


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Re the post above: are we blaming the victim again? An old game.


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

No I am not blaming the victim I am looking at it from should she be considered a victim of bulling.

I put adults in a different category of helpless. Mentally, physically, and age. I did say I am not condoning what the little snots did I am asking do we as adults think she should have had some control of a situation she was in charge to do as her position.

I know after losing my Mom if some little brat had attacked the idea of why she was dead I might be in jail. But I hope I would have been able to look them in the eye and be able to talk to them in such a way that they would have not continued.

Definition of Bullying...
Bullying is a form of aggressive behavior manifested by the use of force or coercion to affect others, particularly when the behavior is habitual and involves an imbalance of power.

[3] The "imbalance of power" may be social power and/or physical power. The victim of bullying is sometimes referred to as a "target".

I am asking is did she have an IMBALANCE OF POWER because of her position, age and what she was in charge to control for those that actual did have an imbalance of power.

If she was unable to handle children they may as well have had one of the little snots as bus monitor.

Before you attack think....We may as well say it is okay for adults to do whatever they want because they are children also they have no power. There is a reason that they say adults have the power and cannot assault a kid. They have the power they are adults.

If she was a bus monitor on the bus with with my daughter and these little snots had been attacking my child. I would have expected the adult to intervene and stop the actions?

If my child said she sat there and looked out the window and felt sorry for her I would be calling for her to be fired for not intervening and doing her job.


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

OM, I do not see peer pressure as an excuse for the behavior but an attempt to understand how these situations can occur. Peer pressure in this instance does not make the behavior acceptable but if we can understand the power it has in situations such as this, we can hopefully use that information to prevent other similar situations in the future.


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

What is the difference between bullying and youthful hijinks?

These obvious bullies touched the woman several times in a non-physically painful way which did not change her physical appearance even for a minute - yet they were behaving as profound bullies, by any measure, agreed upon by all in this forum.

Youthful hijinks by "Romney & Co." in high school - which actually involved a great deal of physical contact, certainly painful contact since it involved a tackling and throwing to the floor upon an unwilling and very frightened victim, and then behavior which humilates and changes the appearance of the victim for months on end - was argued as not bully behavior.

Not really. He and his was so young, after all.

And yet the first scenario was agreed to be an instance of bully behavior by kids remarkably younger in age, maturity and world experience than "Romney&Co".

I'm confused regarding the line of demarcation when it comes to bully behavior and youthful hijinks.

Please clarify.


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I've watched the video and wondered what she could have done. That age, overweight, maybe a intellectual/psychologist, but I doubt it. She obviously didn't have their respect or love.
If she could have jumped up and slapped the first 3 who gave her trouble, she would have got respect/fear, and stopped this issue immediately.
Then the parents of these darlings would have started the lawsuits.
Someone mentioned that if their child was being bullied/assaulted on that bus, they wouldn't want such an ineffectual monitor.
What tools do bus monitors have?


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

My point is I think it dilutes the serious issue of children being bullied vs an adult using this bully description that was shown gross disrespect. I have more concern for children without the power of age and experience to have this position and not an adult. It can scar a kid for life. They have taken their lives because they could not deal with the hurt.

I do not want adults to start using this excuse at the detriment to children just because they are scared adults or adults that do not know what to do at a particular time.

I was not there and the short video does not show or tell the entire story of how it started to say what action she could have taken. I would think she had the power to separate them so they could not act as a group. She could have alerted the bus driver to stop the bus while they were moved. I do not think she was put on the bus to fill the seats.

I think that she demonstrated to the other kids on the bus that they would not have any power or support if the boys turned on them. She was the adult and I assume as the adult and a monitor she was expected to be first line of defense if they had any trouble. I would think they felt fearful that they could be next since she was not adult enough to stop the action.

I worked in a environment of hardcore teens and these kids said some rough stuff directed at me. I never felt bullied because I was the adult.

There is disrespect and there is bullied. I do not think this fits the bully test.


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

I suspect the parents might though, and I hope this is a defining moment in the raising of their child for them and for the child.

I'm sure that these kids might very well be considered "good" kids by the majority for the majority of time and are horribly embarrassed at the exposure and deeply regretful of their terrible behavior. Maybe it will be the defining moment for them that I'm hoping for. Everyone has defining moments in their lives, I hope this will be one for those kids.

And for the parents too, I'm quite sure that at least SOME of the parents were doing an outstanding job by any standard - and are horrified and almost disbelieving that it is their child who was a part of the group. But not for the visual proof, many would probably go to the grave thinking that their child was mistakenly or meanly fingered as one of the group. Parents can be blind about the behavior of their children if the behavior is opposite to WHO they are convinced their children are or are not.

For them, the parents - an incredibly important defining moment also. It's an unusual chance to see their child as the individual - an individual he always will be, people separate from the parent with different reactions to life, differing opinions about life, differing opinions about everything - with serious flaws like we ALL have to overcome throughout our lives.

And an opportunity to help those flawed kids (like all kids are) to find good ways to work on overcoming the behavior flaw that might have reared it's ugly head, as all flaws do at some point.

That way the love they have for their child can be a mature and more encompassing love, not the love for a person which are attached with rules - for a kid who is unfairly put on a particular impossible "character" pedestal at all times - with an impossibly long fall down to try to survive if they mess up pretty badly.

Our kids are people who are not ourselves nor are they a reflection of ourselves, they shouldnt be either. If they are perfect replicants, they are much too fearful of losing their parent's admiration and respect, I do believe.

They might end up very similar to their parents when they are older adults - but we all go through growing and separation as we mature - and there is a healthy reason for it.

It's assumed we as parents do the best we can with them, then we hope they do generally the best they can with themselves. We aren't perfect, we must accept that they aren't perfect either -perhaps in ways we never suspected.

I think the kids who sat quietly while this was going on need parental guidance on why they were silent (to be expected at that age), how important it is to speak out against such occurences when one or a group is tormenting, for fun, another - and how they could handle themselves when a situation comes up where speaking out will be of upmost importance, which it always is - but kids have to so often be told that speaking out is so very important, and why.

It will certainly come up again with the child's experiences, especially in the many, many small ways as they go through daily life.

Speaking up, and doing it well - against the others who are tormenting another takes practice. They might be told that, too. And it never gets easy, it only gets more familiar and more automatic.

That they didn't participate isn't enough. Lack of speaking out against it is also a part of why it went on as long as it did - they ended up a part of it too. I think that is incredibly important to point out to the rest of the kids, in the proper manner with gentle guidance.

It might be the first time they hear that a person's silence can be a part of a wrong done to another, that silence can and often does equal acquiescence.

Everyone, from the woman to the parents to all the kids on the bus (and driver, too) have a lot to learn from this, as do we all.

I'd like to add that the "vacation" fund totalling more than a half million dollars!! (or for that matter, a single dollar) is simply a ludicrous and ridiculous, repellent idea set into motion - so very reflective of how our current society knee jerks to a situation.

JMO


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

I worked in a prison.
I don't want any children to progress to juvenile detention. Seems to be a progression from Juvenal to more hard core detention. Then they learn more from peers, indulge in fights, get tougher, but don't progress in their social skills. These were not stupid kids, at first.
Take a hard look at recidivism rates.


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

I'd like to add that the "vacation" fund totalling more than a half million dollars!! (or for that matter, a single dollar) is simply a ludicrous and ridiculous, repellent idea set into motion - so very reflective of how our current society knee jerks to a situation.

JMO

*

I agree with you.

The lady has said she will use it to pay off her credit card bills and take family on a cruise, if I have heard correctly.

Not my business, certainly anyone can donate to her, but something about that entire situation makes me uncomfortable and I can't put my finger on it.


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

Not my business, certainly anyone can donate to her, but something about that entire situation makes me uncomfortable and I can't put my finger on it.

I can put my finger on it. I feel she has been rewarded for not doing her job.

That they didn't participate isn't enough. Lack of speaking out against it is also a part of why it went on as long as it did - they ended up a part of it too. I think that is incredibly important to point out to the rest of the kids, in the proper manner with gentle guidance.

It might be the first time they hear that a person's silence can be a part of a wrong done to another, that silence can and often does equal acquiescence.

The kids not involved had a right to not have to experience or hear what was said.

She was hired to do a job and she did not do the job. I feel I have to keep repeating I do not condone what the little brats did but she allowed it to go on.

Adults have a responsibility to protect the kids. I think she should keep the money and get a job that does not involve protecting children.


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

Again, I ask what could she have done? She could have screamed "Stop". That would have made their triumph all the better.
Without a realistic means of control (corporal punishment) what does she resort to?


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

Steve you are the adult.
You are the monitor.
You take control.
That is what I think she could/should have done.

Get up walk up to the bus driver and tell her you need to stop the bus I have an issue that needs to be taken care of. Move the ring leader to the front of the bus. There is always a leader. Separate the others throughout the bus.

When you arrive at the school they are taken to the Principals office parents are called.

That is the least I can think of since I was not there and saw the beginning of the conversation.

There are so many things you can do as an adult to defuse a situation professionally.

I am speaking from experience. This is not I think or guessing. You can shut a kid down with the right response. Silence and accepting the comments was wrong. She never even tried. She sat there like her mother was speaking to her.


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

I agree she was a very poor monitor. What was she there for if she was so ineffectual in stopping the verbal abuse. >>And I agree with Demi. The fund is weird. It IS a knee jerk reaction to a stupid video. It's just like the idiots who contributed to Zimmerman's defense fund. Why? He probably used it to pay off his credit cards.

Rewards for doing nothing on a bus and for killing a kid????


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

""""""""""""""In my opinion, it all begins at home with parental attention and discipline. Children only learn by the examples they're given and by how we raise them.
""""""""""""""As a parent, you can't be your child's best friend."............not until they are grown and on their own anyway.
""""""""""""""Obviously some people parent and others breed."
""""""""""""""What I realized was that that happens at the point that the child cares more what his peers think about him than his parents"

All of the above are great comments and true. I too feel that "it all begins at home with parental attention and discipline" and lack of that is the major reason for problems with kids today. H-o-w-e-v-e-r, no matter how well children are brought up, some of them will fold under peer pressure and sometimes just plain old fear that if they don't join in they will be next. The kid's personality will also determine a lot. A child having been taught not to bully but not having strong self confidence may join in, a child with self confidence but maybe not a really strong personality may not participate but they may not say anything against it either, and a child with lots of self confidence and a strong personality may wade right into the fray to protect the victim. I'm not stating these examples as "how it is", just as examples to say even though the parenting is the #1 determining factor there are other things that also influence. If all parents would do their jobs and teach their kids, right and wrong, morals and values, then there would be less kids out there to influence others in a negative way.

As for the lady doing nothing???? who knows. I don't know what the job of a bus monitor entails nor do I know this lady. I do know that the teenage kids today aren't like the teens when I was growing up or even when my son was a teen. She may have been afraid of losing her job, she may have even feared retribution from some of the kids, etc. Marquest, you may be able to speak to a bunch of teenagers and get their attention but I guarantee you that kids like these are not going to listen to an older, overweight woman as quickly as they would listen to a man..........IF they would even listen to a man. If you spoke to them and they didn't obey, what are you going to do? I agree that she should have reported it to someone if she didn't feel the kids would listen to her but no matter what the kids are totally in the wrong. Maybe if the kids aren't allowed to ride the bus in the future and the parents have to chauffeur them to and from school they may be induced to keep a tighter rein on the "little darlings" and maybe met out a good dose of punishment/discipline to the "lil innocents" themselves.


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

Lady Brat, will wonders never cease? For once, I agree with every word you wrote....


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

This was middle school. They kids would have been 11-14.

They said she had been a bus driver for 20 yrs and a bus monitor for 3 years. I think it was time for her to retire she was tired and did not want to deal. She was just taking up a seat and not doing the job she was hired to do. I do not think it is a far belief that a monitor is on the bus to patrol and protect the children. Nobody pays you to just sit and look out the window.

I am not disputing these kids were disrespectful, I do not disagree they should be punished, I am in agreement that home training, peer pressure etc.

I am saying she was not bullied. I think that distinction is reserved for kids. I do not want it watered down that adults can use the term.

Suppose she sat there because she was afraid and these same kids were bullying your child? Would it have been okay because she was afraid? Would you say "what was she suppose to do they would not listen to her?"


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

Aggression & membership in some collective where any perceived weakness is attacked is as old as the hills. Most won't cop to their own aggressive tendencies & so it comes out in other forms. Group identification & sub groups are all the rage quite literally in adolescents. Self criticism & negative feeling are projected outward on to a target. A loner someone weak, perceived as defective or uncool. Savage human impulses with a coating of hormones what a combo. Then there's always the shocked parents on TV not my baby.
Head wagging is just another one of those forms of aggression projecting unwanted unacceptable ideas onto others. Many kids are taught how to behave but not how to love. Eichmann was described as a very good obedient child & adolescent very respectful, dutiful. He showed little or no emotion through his trial though he supposedly blushed when he was told that he hadn't stood for the verdict. Obedience over love & compassion.
So many people are afraid of their own expressions of anger & so we have people who do rage & violence instead. Alas I am not a parent but I've seen plenty snotty little robots in the world & I've seen children who were genuinely loving & caring & capable of a full range of expressed emotions including anger(they are rare)! They tend to be individuals at an early ages & don't follow the crowd/herd because their parent's told them the crowd was bad they tend to walk their own path & can drop in or out of many kinds of crowds & satisfy their own emotional needs without crucifying others.
I did not have that experience myself I was a snotty Catholic School robot who was supposedly morally superior to the Public school rabble. That's what we were told!


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

Yep, I was told the same thing! And believed it, too. For awhile. Until I got out of high school and had a look at everyone else, who didn't seem all that far beneath me, after all. Heck, some even seemed to have quite a bit of a better character than my own - shock!

How could that be?

They weren't even Catholic!


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

Eric Fromm wrote
""There is nothing inhuman, evil, or irrational which does not give some comfort, provided it is shared by a group."
it applies to these miscreants but Fromm was writing about religion. He went on.. Once a doctrine, however irrational, has gained power in a society millions of people will believe in it rather than feel ostracized & isolated.
(then again there will always be the few individuals refusing to adapt)
Move this forward to Max Weber & you can lose the religious element & establish the yearning for fusion that existed in a lost post war Germany coming together in National Socialism. A Creed that permitted all manner of cruelty as long as the symbols of the past were joined with the present while the outsider may have seen the cult of personality in the case of the Hitler, there were elements ready to eliminate Hitler for the good of the Father Land (an ego ideal) that they aspired to be one with.
Well enough of that it's what William Golding wrote about in
LORD of THE FLIES the choir boys god amuck. Those who did not submit must be killed hunted like the pig.


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

"(Reuters) - A fundraising drive for a bus monitor bullied by middle-school students closed late on Friday with a whopping $703,873 raised for the New York grandmother.

Donations for 68-year-old Karen Klein of Greece, New York, broke records for the fundraising website Indiegogo.com after a 10-minute cellphone video of the incident topped 8.3 million views on YouTube."

Here is a link that might be useful: More than $700,000 donated to bullied New York grandma


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

Wouldn't it be a wonderful gesture if Mrs. Klein donated
some of the money to a Boys & Girls Club of America
or donated some of it to other programs for children?


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

CW I don't think so. People gave her the money to use for herself. If they wanted to give their money to Boys Clubs they would have.

That's like saying Zimmerman should give some of the money donated to him to the NAACP.


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

Posted by labrea 7NYC (My Page) on Tue, Jun 26, 12 at 17:21

"Aggression & membership in some collective where any perceived weakness is attacked is as old as the hills."

Posted by labrea 7NYC (My Page) on Wed, Jun 27, 12 at 0:29

Eric Fromm wrote
""There is nothing inhuman, evil, or irrational which does not give some comfort, provided it is shared by a group.""

Very insightful stuff. I always kinda liked Fromm. This type of group behavior is even exhibited daily on HT, for example. Maybe that explains the feeding frenzies against one poster or another. " Those who did not submit must be killed hunted like the pig." Not literally of course, but you get the idea.

Heavy.


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

chase..after money is giving to a person its theirs to do with as they choose.
She said she is going to give the largest part of it to her adult kids and grandkids.

If some of or alot of the doners had known she was going
to do that ...they might have thought twice and given to their own kids instead of her.

Who knows....
I still think it would be a nice gesture on her part since she has over $700,000.

Just my opinion.


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RE: Are adolescents hardwired to bully?

$700 K isn't a "lot of money" anymore, sis. Maybe she can just live off the cash for the rest of her days (without that odious job) and forego the Social Security. That too, would be a nice gesture.


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