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Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
Wed, Jun 12, 13 at 18:42

What rock do these guys live under?

The House of Represenatives is girding itself for another wrenching debate on abortion after a House panel on Wednesday approved legislation that would ban almost all abortions after 20 weeks of pregnancy.

.....Arizona Republican Trent Franks, generated another controversy during the committee debate when.............he stated that incidences of rape resulting in pregnancy "are very low". Which means, of course, that he is opposed to an exception for rape or incest, because................

And then of course, there's what he meant to say..................

Are these men completely incapable of thinking, at all.

I firmly believe that if you are incapable of getting pregnant, because you don't have any female reproductive organs (or XX chromosomes), you have no right to decide anything about women's reproductive health.

Here is a link that might be useful: Link

This post was edited by momj47 on Thu, Jun 13, 13 at 11:17


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

mom, I am appalled at these men who assume the power to decide what women can do with their own bodies despite the things that might happen to them regarding rape or incest. More than that, these men are almost all white, almost all well past what would be a woman's child-braring age, and almost all apparently out to lunch concerning the physical, emotional, and ethical concerns of women.
Women are accustomed to being oppressed, but we must fight tooth and nail to move past thaand take control ofour own lives.


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Not to mention that they are spending time on this when they know it won't get passed. Don't we have economic issues to deal with?


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23 Men who hate women

What I don't understand is how any woman, even women who are anti-choice, can be in the Republican Party with men who treat women with such contempt. These men are the leaders of the GOP, not some right wing fringe group living in a survivalist camp in Idaho.

And why aren't women in the GOP standing up and protesting this misogyny? Why aren't GOP women outraged by the attitude in the GOP that thinks women are “too immoral or too stupid” to make their own choices.

Why aren't GOP women elbowing their way in, pushing these idiots aside and showing them how to run an effective political party. It's clear these men have no idea at all how to govern.

There are actual issues that are important to the American people, that need to be dealt with, and this isn't one of them.

I think the silence of Republican women may be more troubling than the voices of Republican men.

Here is a link that might be useful: Men men men men, manly men men men


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They must be kidding... again.


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I'm amazed at the stupidity of some of these elected officials and the people that vote for them.

~Ann

This post was edited by ann_t on Thu, Jun 13, 13 at 12:03


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Since according to this man pregnancy from rape is 'rare' or perhaps abortion for pregnancy from rape is 'rare' after 20 weeks and we know that abortion is 'rare' after 20 weeks then why not treat it the same -he seems to think that you dont need to make an exception for something that is rare. Logic would say you dont need a law.


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I am not against abortion in some cases. I am not for abortion in just any case. My only question is why those who wish abortion do not do it as soon as possible to avoid this situation.

I have a problem with the prospective mother not knowing she was pregnant. I realized I was pregnant within two weeks of conception five separate times. It is hard to imagine I am so unusual. It is harder to believe so many women do not recognise that they are pregnant for 5 months or not to know they do not want the pregnancy to continue.Once abortion became legal my doctor offered the option which I was in the position to refuse. Nature ended two of those early on and I grieved for them. I would have grieved if it had been due to abortion.

However, I don't think it is any of my business if someone wants an abortion. They are the ones who have to live with their decisions: their conscience, their morals, their lives and their losses. I guess it is better than exposure.
It is hard not to grieve though.


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I might mention that several friends of mine who could not have children adopted children who were not wanted by the biological parent.


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The reasons women may seek abortions are varied and complex.....for some a matter of convenience but most I would imagine a hugely painful choices.

I became pregnant with my daughter as I was entering menopause. My periods were sketchy and it was at least 8 weeks before I realized I may be pregnant. Then there was the angst, given my age I ... we,...were very concerned about serious birth defects so we under went testing...the 20 weeks was coming close!

As it was there was an anomaly in the amino but we discussed it and felt the right thing for us was to continue with pregnancy...but we came close to a different decision. I could have lived with that decision.

For others, especially young women, there may be denial, fear .etc that keeps them from facing the facts. Counseling is difficult to get and hard to seek.

I can't imagine most women know that if they were to become pregnant they would abort...even if they think they would the reality of facing that decision is tough. It takes some time to work it through....or at least it should.

All of that to say , I can't judge anyone in terms of what they are going through and what may be complicating the decision....it ain't easy and my heart goes out to every woman who must face it.


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I have a problem with the prospective mother not knowing she was pregnant. I realized I was pregnant within two weeks of conception five separate times

Really? Do you realize what you said? How about this?..... I cannot understand why people are tall. I am short. Why are there so many tall people?


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How do you explain the woman who ran in a ten mile run last week, got stomach pains, and went to the hospital where she had a healthy baby. She had not a clue she was pregnant.


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I don't think it is any of my business if someone wants an abortion.

It's pretty obvious that these regressive, Republican, conservative, white men want government to intrude into the personal lives of women...whether they are responsible or not. They keep on hammering away. Once they get the door slightly wedged they just keep pounding away until there is no longer any door. Now when it comes to infringing upon their personal arsenal....that's another matter.

-Ron-


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There's a lot of talk about "the value of life" that does not consider the fact that, while the nature of life is that undeserved consequences to any action are unforeseen, they need to be dealt with in a way that considers what "the value of life" actually means. To too many, the only value resides in the fetus.


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Keep it coming old white men. Your days are numbered. You are NOT the boss of women and their reproductive rights and the sooner you learn that , the better for your antiquated party. On second thought, I like it the way it is. Easier to beat in elections.


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Same crowd doing the same thing !


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•Posted by pidge z6PA (My Page) on Wed, Jun 12, 13 at 19:54

More than that, these men are almost all white,
*********************************************************************

•Posted by lily316 z5PA (My Page) on Thu, Jun 13, 13 at 17:42

Keep it coming old white men.

******************************************************************

Mostly white men......old white men.

I read that alot on this forum so I have to ask.
Is it the belief the "white men" are stupid but when they are replaced by the "black men"......the black men will be more receptive to women's rights?

This is a question I have wondered several times when the "white men" are targeted for the backlash of women's rights .

Myself......I don't think its a color issue ....I think its the
Conservative issue.
If the majority of the males in the Conservative party were black.......the scales wouldn't slant to the left anymore than they do now in my opinion.
It is a Conservative....moral...values....issue not a color issue.


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  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Thu, Jun 13, 13 at 22:40

This doesn't have anything to do with color. Men, in general, are not interested in women's rights. And even when they act like they are, the always blow it - like Paul Tudor Jones. Sadly, the current leadership in the GOP are all white men. But it wouldn't matter - red, yellow, black or white, it's all the same. And religious men are the worst. They think they speak for God.

Men have shown, again and again, now, and down through history, and over and over again, that they are afraid of women, and the "power" they think we have over them. So, to control and marginalize women and make us powerless, they tell us we are inferior, weak, immoral, seductive, less intelligent, less capable, etc., and repeatedly remind us of things we can't or shouldn't do because we are women.

We should know our place and be grateful for it. And, sadly, many women are.


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It does have nothing to do with color. It's just that the huge majority of GOP leaders ARE white, and they are dead wrong about trying their best to inhibit women's' reproductive rights. It ain't gonna happen.


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marquest and lilly, no, I cannot fathom not realizing you are pregnant. When your body is going through so many changes it seems to me that only someone in complete denial would not recognise it. Maybe some women can ignore it or refuse to believe it, I could not. Could you be five months pregnant and not know it?

Of course for me the morning sickness from almost day one during the first pregnancy was pretty convincing.

You will note I said their decision was theirs and none of my business, so lay off. Even if Roe vs. Wade had never been enacted there would still be abortions, no matter the risk. I can't change the law and I prefer that the deed be done safely if it must be done at all but it should be done as early as possible.


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The truth is, though.. we don't always know.

And we should not be marginalized as lesser. We are fully capable of making our own decisions.


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"Is it the belief the "white men" are stupid but when they are replaced by the "black men"......the black men will be more receptive to women's rights?"

citywoman, I don't think black men would be any more rceptive in the least. My comment simply reflected the fact that most conservative Republican males are white and they are making the decisions regarding women's health issues.


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Can we just say that old white men often don't have a world view that supports understanding the legitimate concerns of women?


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  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Fri, Jun 14, 13 at 10:05

White men "preach from the statehouses" and black men "preach from the pulpit". This is not a man's issue and until they start having penis legislation I choose to dismiss them all.

When I was 32 and having my last child I chose to have my tubes tied after delivery .. the "male" doctor asked if my husband agreed. I told him since he did not have a uterus he had no say so and I sure did not seek his advice and/or permission.

My opinion on abortion is mine alone, not to be "forced" on other women, and I definitely want the legal/safe option for women that choose to have one.

The great thing about being "pro choice" is any woman can choose not to have an abortion.


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Sleepwayne......so lay off.

No. The reason........You demoralize and walk in step when you say things and think women are less than human.

Without a medical degree it is not possible for you or anyone male or female have the capability to doubt what every woman should/will/can possibly know about pregnancy.

You said.....
it seems to me that only someone in complete denial would not recognise it. Maybe some women can ignore it or refuse to believe it, I could not.

Saying a woman has to be in complete denial not just DENIAL even. You say COMPLETE DENIAL, ignore, refuse believe. Your opinion is the same as voodoo women medical opinion as Todd Akin.

There is no difference of how a woman's body reacts to pregnancy than why one woman is tall and another woman is short.

I do not doubt women that say labor pains hurt. I did not have labor pains. I had a nurse at my side and told me when to bare down and push because I did not have any pain. I went to the hospital because my water broke. NO PAIN! Just because I did not have any pain should I say women do not have labor pain?

Todd Akin seemed to have thought women have mystical powers to not get pregnant if she is rapped. You are saying a woman has mystical powers if she gets pregnant she has to know unless she is in COMPLETE DENIAL.

We are not this stupid woman on one hand and cannot make decisions and mystical human beings that our bodies will tell us we are pregnant and naturally throw out sperm if we are rapped.


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  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Fri, Jun 14, 13 at 11:21

And after I had my tubes tied, I would not have expected to be pregnant again, so if I had gotten pregnant, I probably wouldn't have realized it for many, many weeks.

Same goes for a pregnancy after a vasectomy.

If I was trying to get pregnant, sure, I would have, and did, realize I was pregnant within the first few weeks.

What a strange world some people live in. My reality should be everyone's reality!


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

Sleepless, It just happened last week in Duluth MN. A woman gave birth and didn't even know she was pregnant. It just happens sometimes.

Here is a link that might be useful: source


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It does happen. Back in the 60's we didn't have the test kits but I knew noon of the day I usually got my period. But that was just me, a healthy, regular, very young woman. I do not question the people who are unaware till much later in their pregnancy. Maybe they don't have the education, are very obese, or are too young to know the facts. If I had been 14, I doubt I would have known.


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

Some women are other women's worst enemies in their disbelief in the actual, lived experience of women other than themselves.


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Some of you are far too anxious to cast accusations. If you actually read what I wrote without putting your own biased twist on it, you would see that I didn't say what you claim I did. Why? Because you think you have to defend anything and everything your party pushes and fight against anything a conservative thinks even if that thought is in agreement with your own, or is it just that you have some imagined grievance toward me?

JZ, I know. I read the article. It is twice as amazing because she was in training and was obviously putting extra strain on her body. Doctors have said that athletes sometimes have problems getting pregnant because of heavy training stresses on the body. Maybe she wasn't training that hard. Maybe she misread her bit of a "tummy" bouncing. She was having body changes. I suspect she misread them.

I am a very small woman but I never even started to show until 5 months along and even doctors who had not read my records did not realize I was past full term when I got to the hospital.

Marquest, I put so many qualifiers in my post that even an idiot could see that I do not think that some women cannot get through a pregnancy unaware. Your general hostility since I accidentally called you by the wrong name is beginning to border on the irrational. I apologised for that. It wasn't deliberate. At this point I am not certain what name I used, maybe it was lilly, but since the two of you are often in lockstep it was not such a horrible error.

I said I found it hard to believe, not that I know. There is a vast difference. I made no comment that I considered them less than human. That is just plain sick.

I am quite aware that you can go through labor without pain. I had all three children with natural childbirth: lots of pressure but no pain. It confused the staff. Women in the rest of the labor section were screaming their heads off. I felt sorry for them. They tensed up so much that of course they were in pain. They had not heard any of the information, read the books or done the practice as I had done. (Birthing classes are a great idea but I wonder if they go far enough.) If you expect pain then you will likely feel pain. Barring something going wrong, labor is just that:hard, exhausting work, at least for me. They seemed to be in labor forever and mine was so fast I had to insist on going to delivery and still almost didn't get there in time. Possibly their tension and my relaxation exercises had something to do with that. Physical AND mental preparation with sufficient information does wonders.
I still felt sorry for them: just as I feel sorry for women who have abortions. I think it is a pity they happen but I recognize that there are situations that merit it. If you have a problem with that, I feel sorry for you.


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"They had not heard any of the information, read the books or done the practice as I had done. (Birthing classes are a great idea but I wonder if they go far enough.) If you expect pain then you will likely feel pain. "

Sleepless, I was actually with you until this statement.....it is beyond ludicrous to say that these women experienced pain because they didn't do what you did . How on earth would you know what any of these women had done or why they experienced pain you didn't !!! You haven't got a clue as to what issues another woman may be facing in childbirth...not a clue

...listen to yourself!


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sleepless, if there are Democrats spouting such foolishness as Trent Franks, I would be just as critical of him or her as I am the Franks position. The fact remains that the overwhelming majority of politicians who are trying to prevent women's access to constitutionally sanctioned, safe, and affordable abortions are Republican and the majority of those Republicans are male. Whether you knew you were pregnant or had pain or whatever is irrelevant in regards to this issue.


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

Marquest. Again someone from the Right is calling us twins. Gotta love it. Maybe because we're both from PA???


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If your body won't let you get pregnant unless you really want to, does that mean that the three women in Cleveland who were kidnapped & held hostage for ten years & punched until they miscarried many times...really wanted those pregnancies?

'Some women are other women's worst enemies in their disbelief in the actual, lived experience of women other than themselves.'

& It seems like this disbelief applies to *any* experience that doesn't match our own.


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If you actually read what I wrote without putting your own biased twist on it, you would see that I didn't say what you claim I did.

Sleep Sleep Sleep......Did you say this?????? Is your qualifier that a woman is IN COMPLETE DENIAL, REFUSE TO BELIEVE, IGNORE IT. Are those your qualifiers?
marquest and lilly, no, I cannot fathom not realizing you are pregnant. When your body is going through so many changes it seems to me that only someone in complete denial would not recognise it. Maybe some women can ignore it or refuse to believe it, I could not.

How about this Sleep?
I have a problem with the prospective mother not knowing she was pregnant. I realized I was pregnant within two weeks of conception five separate times. It is hard to imagine I am so unusual.

I did not make up what you said. Is there a comprehension thing going on here. I said I did not have pain and did not think every woman did not have pain. Unlike your fathom feelings... I did not say I cannot imagine why they had pain. Go back and read each word.

You appear to be having trouble imagining because it did not happen in your FIVE incidents.

That is what I am trying to say. We cannot use our experience as to what we imagine should or should not be.

I do not remember you calling me lily. I am only responding to your comments that you think women are in complete denial if they do not feel as you do or have the same medical history and experience during their pregnancy.

You are correct if you want to call it a "defend". I will defend a woman's right to medical care through her doctor with my last breath. Not your fathom thoughts of your pregnancies, or a politician that feels if a woman is rapped she will not get pregnant.

This issue has nothing to do with anyone other than the woman and her doctor. I could care less if it is a R or a D political party,

It is my body. How hard is that to understand?


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Every individual's body works a little bit differently. No two women will feel exactly the same, exhibit the exact same signs or symptoms, feel the exact same level of pain, or anything else. That should be nothing more than common sense.

How wonderfully fortunate are those who do not experience labor pain, do not experience negative symptoms during pregnancy, do not have horrible cramping, excessive bleeding, excessive illness, or have any other experiences that could be considered negative.

For every one of those so fortunate as to have a completely positive experience with no negative effects, there must be many who have the extreme opposite experience, and twice as many who experience every other level in between!

It's not logical to think that every woman's body works exactly the same way, therefore every female will know she is pregnant within the same time period.

The most irrational thing is to think that men, who have no formal medical training whatsoever, and no personal experience with any physical female issues, are somehow qualified to make such intimate decisions regarding this issue, for all women nationwide!

Some of the things that exit the mouths of these representatives, and I use that term very loosely, are so far off the mark of reality that I cannot believe people keep voting for them!

Geez Louise! The possibility of pregnancy depends on sperm meeting egg... whether it's consensual sex or not has nothing to do with it!

I agree that the choice works both ways... one can choose not to support abortion, but one does not get to make that choice for others.

It is incredibly tiring to go over the very same ground, time and again, knowing full well that the Supreme Court has already spoken. Most women want various choices available, whether they choose to utilize those choices or not.


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Myself......I don't think its a color issue ....I think its the
Conservative issue.

Do I understand this correctly? Do you think conservative WOMAN agree with what these conservative MEN are saying? I am not addressing the color issue because I don't think it's relevant. But I am interested in what conservative woman think about this.

You are a conservative woman...do you think your body has a way of not getting pregnant if you are raped? Do you think it's OK that conservative MEN are trying to decide what you can do with your body?

------
I firmly believe that if you are incapable of getting pregnant, because you don't have any female reproductive organs (or XX chromosomes), you have no right to decide anything about women's reproductive health.

I completely agree with this. Stay out of my personal decisions about my body. If I choose to seek my male partner's opinion/input on my reproductive decisions, I am free to do that. But it is still my body and ultimately my decision.

And, I agree with lily. I hope they keep on talking. Worked great in the last election for those idiots that spoke out about this! I hope they try more of the same.


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  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Fri, Jun 14, 13 at 22:07

And we can blame men for menopause!! LOL

Here is a link that might be useful: Link


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Blame them for menopause? They rarely admit it, are loathe to, but they go through their own version of what we females go through! They just don't experience the same symptoms! ;-)

I'm in complete agreement... it's my body, and I'll do what I feel is best for me, making those choices as I see fit, never mind what males or other females think.

I am unable to comprehend the taboos and constraints of tradition and/or dogma, and how they try to force those issues onto others through ridiculous legislation.

If opposed to abortion and other reproductive choices, choose what's best for you, but stop trying to force your idea of morality on others.


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Yes, Jodi, I agree, but I think it's less about "morality" than "controlling women." They just dress it up as a moral issue to cover the real motives.


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That's most likely very true, Pidge, though to some I suppose they think it has everything to do with the "moral decline in the fabric of America"... you know the scenario, where the 'choice to be gay' is ruining our youth, the various 'races are mixing' much to their dismay, 'feminism and promiscuity' have also 'ruined the family unit', and other equally as ignorant, prejudicial fears are voiced... all due to the 'turning away from god', don't you know...

It's a silly wrapping, I know, but one heard among those who vehemently reject change to entitled position. Of course it's about control. We can't have any change to the traditional rigidity as preached, some deity forbid, I say with sarcasm...


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There are many many many prolife women - in both parties. Of all colors. And, if given the chance, would also legislate against it. But, not until after they have tackled the real problems in this country would they consider (waste time on) an issue that has already had hundreds of legislative attempts.

To the idiots in DC, get to the real problems, would you please.


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Franks is raising money off his inaccurate remarks. See attached.

Here is a link that might be useful: Turning lies into $$$$


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Another rock overturns to reveal this winner...

Who died and made these idiots think they have god status?

Here is a link that might be useful: Iowa’s New Abortion Decider-In-Chief


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  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Sat, Jun 15, 13 at 14:08

Dear God, what have we become.

Register uteruses, not guns.

And the Republicans want LESS government. What a bunch of horsesh!it.

Are the women of Iowa going to allow this? Probably - sheep that they appear to be.

The war on women continues.

It appears that the governor of Iowa is, at best, a voyeur, but more likely, he's a ............?

This is about punishing bad bad women. Will the governor meet with each woman individually? Will he demand each one tell him her own personal story of how she became pregnant? Will it be one-on-one in his office? Will he have a female staffer present, like a gynecologist does during an exam? I have to say, the idea of a 13-year-old being forced to whisper to the strange man in that photo above the details of her rape by Uncle Bob? Too creepy.

And while we’re thinking about how this new law is going to work, let’s think about Governor Branstad’s public remarks on the subject. He said he will be “thoughtful,” and he hopes he will be able to “reduce the number of abortions” paid for by Medicare. That sounds like he will be making moral judgments on each woman’s story, not an impartial judgement on whether each woman’s medical condition meets the requirements of a covered procedure. If he needs to be “thoughtful” it means Governor Branstad will be sitting in judgement on the character of the women. Thumbs up, or thumbs down.


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It is a shame that women have to go backward to stand up once again. This was settled.

More women are head of households and they do not like it and trying to put them back in the kitchen will not work. The ones that are unable to support themselves will follow and accept the control but to many women feed themselves they will not be controlled.


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There must be a reason so many older Caucasian men feel threatened, or emasculated by women of intelligence, capability and strength... though, for the life of me, I can't imagine why.

In this case, it seems more like some sickness, some twisted sexual fantasy, or something... of holding such complete control over women, and I cannot believe that the men and women of Iowa approve this sort of sick behavior from their Governor.

It's absolutely frightening, to think that this man has a deity-like power to decide the fate of women forced to accept state medical assistance... as though they were undeserving of making their own choices regarding their own lives.

Were I an Iowan woman in such a position, I'd be moving out of state and changing my residency. No man shall tell me what I can and cannot do with my own body... especially one of non-medical, political status. How dare he presume!

I would hope this is quickly overturned. This goes far beyond the bounds of what is right, and enters a realm of personal privacy that no politician should have access to. This is an overreach of power, and one I would call sick and twisted. The man needs help.


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I don't usually comment on these kinds of threads and probably won't again, but...

The arrogance of Branstad getting to determine "worthy" vs "non-worthy" is breath taking. He and he alone gets to make such a value judgment.

Iowa already falls under the Hyde Amendment (Medicaid covers abortion only in the case of rape, incest, or life threat of the mother). This is bad and unjust enough. Guess it wasn't already cruel enough for Branstad though - forcing women to have the him decide how meritorious and how insurance worthy a case is.

This is calculating, callous, cavalier, creepy, and simply downright wrong.


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I would agree. This crosses boundaries of basic propriety into what is most private and personal to women. It's very creepy, very wrong, and I would say very perverse. This man has issues, and needs professional help, in my opinion. This man is the epitome of a tool, and much worse.

Every day, it seems, one more snake slithers out from under those political rocks to take perverse pleasure in undermining every step women and other minorities have fought so hard to gain. And every day, I'm a little more shocked and saddened to learn how fearful and/or twisted these people in places of power really are, that they would treat certain groups of voters in such a controlling manner without regard for any human feelings.

Where is basic decency?


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A funny cartoon that hopefully won't come true ...

Here is a link that might be useful: Direct link to image if not displayed in post


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Funny, Esh... though not so funny as this is closer to the kind of relationship it seems these neanderthals want.

Not only is it beyond bizarre to hear some of the things publicly uttered by the far right, it's also frightening to think that these men actually spend time and taxpayer money revisiting issues already set in stone, trying to overturn those stones and lob society back a century or two in time to satisfy their personal lack of male security.


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Its not that men hate women or color or any of the above points, the fact of the matter is some believe and some don't believe that one day they have to stand in front of God and give an account for their actions, its really that simple, some believe in the bible and some don't. Its legal to have an abortion so do it if you want to, others whole heartedly believe they are saving lives just as if they had sent food money to a third world country, just two different points of view is all.

Do a kind deed for a stranger.


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I certainly hope the inference isn't that non-believers are immoral because they don't have to account to a deity... because if that IS the inference, it's far off base.

It's not that simple.

One cannot automatically marry the actions of a person to his or her belief system. That's not even a close representation of non-believers OR believers.

Moral behavior is not exclusive to religion or belief in a deity.

One can be anti-abortion and atheist at the same time... or christian and pro-choice.


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LOL...

the fact of the matter is some believe and some don't believe that one day they have to stand in front of God and give an account for their actions, its really that simple, some believe in the bible and some don't

Not again. Gee, too bad it's not really that simple.

That's a naive and divisive statement and it is completely irrelevant to this, or any, issue. It's time to stop dragging religion into every discussion.

If you can't support your point without resorting to myth and superstition then maybe you need to think, deeply, about what you believe and why you believe it.


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

Based on your premise , are you OK with women being forced by law to wear head scarfs and cover their face?

The fact of the matter is that no one has the right to impose religious beliefs on someone else.


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

"As the director of the Red River Women's Clinic in Fargo, the only reproductive health care provider still offering abortion care in the entire state of North Dakota, Tammi Kromenaker is used to being one of the last lines of defense for access to reproductive health care. But the latest onslaught of anti-choice measures from extremist legislators took even her by surprise.

"We already have so many restrictions. How could they possibly pass more?" she says. "What could they come up with that's crazier than what we have?"

The answer, it turns out, is a handful of proposals that North Dakota's legislators didn't come up with at all. The latest attacks in the state are pre-packaged bills drawn from an anti-choice playbook increasingly in use across the U.S. The legislative assault on North Dakota's sole abortion provider is part of a coordinated, systematic effort to choke off access to safe, comprehensive reproductive health services nationwide."

"All of these laws - and much of the anti-choice legislation making the rounds today - are a product of Americans United for Life, a group dedicated to ending access to safe and legal abortion across the entire country. The organization's website offers visitors the opportunity to order model legislation of their very own. Just fill in a name and address, tick off a few boxes, and cookie-cutter model legislation attacking reproductive rights suitable for proposing in your state legislature will soon be on the way.

It's bad enough that politicians feel perfectly comfortable imposing their own ideologies on women. But to rely on an organization headquartered 1,300 miles away, in Washington, DC, is even more shameful. Perhaps that's why they won't cop to it. "I think if you were to ask sponsors, they would say they're motivated by their hearts, by the children. They'll say, 'I want to help women,'" Tammi Kromenaker says. "I don't think they'd admit that they took it out of the playbook."

And, as someone well acquainted with day-in, day-out work of actually helping women, she can say with plenty of authority that the claims politicians make about designing laws to protect women are just plain dishonest. If the Red River Women's Clinic can no longer deliver care to its patients, countless women will have to travel hundreds more miles to South Dakota or Minnesota - if they can afford it."

There's plenty more to the article...

The bottom line is, women of every belief and every walk of life are being played for fools... by those who would take our rights, freedoms, and choices away in the name of THEIR personal beliefs, which are certainly not mine, and certainly not everyone's as we do not all walk in lockstep to the shouts of extremism.

Here is a link that might be useful: Extremism In Overdrive...


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

Trent Franks should refrain from commenting on the abortion issue until he is cured of his advanced case of foot-in-mouth disease. I do agree with Jodi's comments above:

"Moral behavior is not exclusive to religion or belief in a deity.

One can be anti-abortion and atheist at the same time... or christian and pro-choice."

But I strongly disagree with this statement:
"One cannot automatically marry the actions of a person to his or her belief system."

If one is acting contrary to her own (personal) beliefs, what kind of person is that? Certainly not one who is true to herself. That person would be a hypocrite or a liar, maybe both. I'm thinking that is not what Jodi meant when she made that statement. That is however, how I read it.


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

How can there be so many stupid people holding elected office? This woman, a representative from Texas, opposed adding a rape exception to the restrictive abortion law that some members of Congress is trying to pass. She said that it wasn't necessary because there were Rape Kits at hospitals and they could "clean women out". Kind of like a D&C.

Politifact calls her claim incorrect and ridiculous and gave it a Pants on Fire rating. I think she should find another career.

Here is a link that might be useful: source


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

That's what the pastor tells them at church, and, by God, they believe it. Ignorance begets ignorance.


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

"That's what the pastor tells them at church, and, by God, they believe it."

Not likely. Your source, please? Or did you make this up all by yourself? Really, Mom.

"Ignorance begets ignorance."


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Tue, Jun 25, 13 at 10:52

I guess you haven't been to church lately or listened to those radio pastors.

I assume, by your comment, that you support her statement -She is opposed adding a rape exception to the restrictive abortion law that some members of Congress is trying to pass. She said that it wasn't necessary because there were Rape Kits at hospitals and they could "clean women out". Kind of like a D&C.

Do you think someone like Laubenberg makes this stuff up? It's easy enough to find out the truth - but I guess the truth isn't important.

It's exactly how misinformation and ignorance - scientific, medical, social, historic, educational, etc - gets out into the community and passed around, and down through the generations, too. Parents pass it on to their kids.

Certainly Faux News and Beck and Limbaugh spout these sorts of ideas, but for the most part, - so-called social conservatives get their beliefs from church.


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

Ignorance does beget ignorance. If one is ignorant and spreads that ignorance... especially to unsuspecting offspring, or those who take everything at face value, believing everything... well, there you have it. Ignorance is too easily perpetuated.

What's really unfortunate is how quick some professional politicians/elected representatives are to spout such ignorance in full public view...


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

"At 11:18 this morning, State Senator Wendy Davis took to the floor of the Texas State Senate, beginning a filibuster that Democrats hope will stop the passage of a bill that targets abortion rights in the state. Senator Davis wore pink tennis shoes, ready for the almost 13 hours she must continue speaking to keep Republicans for calling for a vote."

Go, Wendy!

Here is a link that might be useful: Filibuster in Progress!


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

I'm appalled at our Legislature, & I"m so proud of Wendy Davis.

The other day, there were 500 women waiting to testify before the Lege (Molly Ivins' term for our gang in Austin), & they were thrown out by state troopers.

gotta be careful with them dangerous, irrational, rioting mobs of wimmins, put some armed troopers between them & the politicians.

"That's what the pastor tells them at church, and, by God, they believe it."

I think a lot of people think exactly like this.

I once saw a *bumper sticker* (where you put the things that you want to advertise to the world) that said:

"God Said It.
"I Believe It.
"That Settles It.."


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

"I assume, by your comment, that you support her statement -"

You know what happens when you "assume", Mom. No, I do not support her statements, Any of them. I do object to your characterization of church-going people as gullible enough to believe everything their pastor says, I strongly disagree with your characterization of pastors as people who routinely spout such nonsense from the pulpit. I suggest that a pastor who tells his flock that rape kits terminate pregnancies would not be the norm.

I suggest that spreading that kind of comment around the internet is especially ludricrous when in the same breath you are talking about ignorance begetting the same.

Now this I can believe:

"I think a lot of people think exactly like this.

I once saw a *bumper sticker* (where you put the things that you want to advertise to the world) that said:

"God Said It.
"I Believe It.
"That Settles It.."


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

Wendy Davis is one brave woman. She has to speak for 13 hours without a bathroom break. Also without sitting or leaning on the podium. I am watching it livestream and it looks like they tried to stop the filibuster with a point of order but she's back to speaking again.


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Tue, Jun 25, 13 at 21:42

Goodness, elvis in no way did I characterize ALL church-going people as gullible or assume ALL pastors are spouting nonsense from the pulpit, and I think you know that. My own family is full of pastors and church-going people, and they all seem pretty normal to me. I am, very clearly, pointing to people like Rep. Laubenburg, who spout ignorant falsehoods to advance their own agenda. Rep. Laubenberg calls herself a "Christian", and she has an agenda.

You just have to listen to "Christian" radio and TV for a short time to hear more of the same ignorant falsehoods from pastors. And not just abortion. They preach, with mendacity, about science, technology, climate change, education, evolution, and on and on and on..

The majority of church going Americans reject these ideas, but they don't do it very loudly, or with much conviction, because the nuttiness seems to be getting worse, not better.

It's the same thing that seems to be happening to the Republican Party, when a group lets the fringe dictate the agenda, even the good people lose credibility. And no one seems courageous enough to stand up and repudiate these outrageous statements.

FYI - God doesn't talk to man any more, Malachi was the last one she spoke to.

I, too, have a bumper sticker. Mine says "I vote. Pro-Family, Pro-Child, Pro-Choice."

Here is a link that might be useful: Link


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

I heard the Texas republicans are trying stop her filibuster because she took a moment (and had someone help her) put on a back brace.

At one point in the evening, a fellow senator helped Davis put on a back brace, which angered some lawmakers who thought it violated filibuster rules. They took a vote and decided the brace was a violation, so they gave her a warning.

Davis is allowed three warnings before the senate can vote on whether she must stop her filibuster. This was her second, after senators said she earlier spoke off-topic, which is also against the rules.

As least Texas plays it by strict rules unlike the US Senate which lets people filibuster without talking. In Texas you actually have to stay ON TOPIC even, not just talk.

Here is a link that might be useful: source


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

I am still watching it and it's fascinating. She has two more hours to go. The republicans are still trying to stop her with points of order.


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

One hour to go. They have been discussing a point of order for the last 20 minutes.


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

Ugh. They broke the filibuster on a bogus point of order. The people in the gallery are going nuts.


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

Yuk, all this parliamentary stuff is so weird. No wonder our elected officials get so little done. I'm watching this and would not have believed it otherwise.


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

It's performance art.


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

Well they say they got it stopped thanks to the crowd. We'll see if they convene another special session to get it through.


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

Thank goodness the bill didn't pass, they couldn't vote till after midnight.

Here is a link that might be useful: Link


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

I watched the whole thing on LiveStream and was very confused because they started voting just before midnight and didn't finish until after midnight. I just assumed that at 12 pm, the coach was going to turn back into a pumpkin and everyone would just go away, but the lt gov just kept going, then said the bill passed. That's where it stood when I went to bed. I am glad that his decision was reversed because it would have been unfair.

The people in the gallery, btw, were magnificent. I wonder if Cecile Richards was there.


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

From what I'm reading, Texas Republicans tried very hard to change the definition of midnight, and it's only by the skin of their teeth that Democrats and supporters were able to effectively kill this bill... though Republicans will be back to take up the fight against women and our rights.

Today, I feel proud to be a supporter of choice for all women... and incredibly glad that we have politicians like Wendy Davis to help our voices be heard above the din of corruption and abuse of power.

I'm ashamed that this is what our legislative process has become, though, and ashamed of those who would stoop so low as to abuse the power they have been entrusted with... it's ridiculous that women still have to fight this hard to maintain simple choices that have already been decided by our Supreme Court.

The fight to maintain rights and freedoms continues...


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

You knew it was coming:

AUSTIN, Texas - Gov. Rick Perry on Wednesday called a second special session of the Texas Legislature to pass widespread abortion restrictions, after the first attempt by Republicans died overnight following a marathon one-woman filibuster.

Perry ordered lawmakers to meet again on July 1 to act on the abortion proposals, as well as separate bills that would boost highway funding and deal with a juvenile justice issue. The sweeping abortion rules would close nearly all abortion clinics and impose other widespread restrictions on the procedure across the nation's second-largest state.

They are there to "Get Her Done". Get it?


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

Not a joking matter where I'm concerned. I take my rights and freedoms very seriously... especially those that protect me and my choices as a minority, a female.

I find it despicable that a bunch of men and subservient women want to usurp those rights for their own sense of control over others, or for their own idea of what's moral... an issue which cannot effectively be legislated as morality is subjective.

The Supreme Court spoke decades ago... why are Republicans still trying to control morality from a personal, religious perspective? We are not a theocracy. We aren't even a christian nation.


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

I don't think it's morality they're worried about;
if it were, there would be more soul-searching & less judgmentalism.

but you hit the nail on the head when you used the word "control".

Dewhearst even said that the proposed measures were to "protect Texas women & their babies".

Any time someone says he wants to protect you from something whether you like it or not,...
your safety or welfare is not his goal.

His goal is to destroy your autonomy & to control you, to own you, & he'll expect you to be grateful, bless your heart & don't worry your pretty little head.

(I once read a really good book whose title I can't remember, about the British aristocracy in the late 1890's & early 1900's.

One thing that struck me was the absolute certainty with which the aristocracy believed in their right to make decisions for other people.

They really believed that they were entitled to control the lives of everybody else, & that everybody else oughtta be grateful to them for doing it.)


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

From what I've been reading, around the same time Dewhearst was uttering the falsehood that the bill aimed to "protect Texas women & their babies", the Texas penal system executed a woman... and in fact, the state executes an abnormal number of prisoners. So much for the protection of life argument...

If we lived in a monarchy or a theocracy, the "domination mindset" might carry a bit more weight... but we don't. This is a democratic republic in the year 2013, under a Constitution that grants us all - for the most part - certain unalienable rights and freedoms.

I will be so much happier when the regressive mindset is no longer in a place of authority.


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

They will take the time to craft and debate all this in the House of Representatives but then they can't be bothered (Eric Cantor's words) with reading the Senate Immigration bill to see how they might come together on a solution for that?

Really, the priorities are just out of whack.


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

and in fact, the state executes an abnormal number of prisoners. So much for the protection of life argument...

It is all about timing. They prefer to take the life after it is born. Execute humans or use them as target practice, starve the child after birth and with hold affordable health care. It is just their preference.

It made more sense to me when they were secretly sterilizing the poor. You knew it was about not wanting to pay. But to force a birth that they know is being born into a situation that they support of limited/no health care, Food Stamp cuts, seems to be sadistic to want to force a baby to term to suffer.

As M. Bachman said last week if you do not work you shall not eat. So you and that fetus we are forcing you to carry to term shall not eat. But dog gone it we will force you to deliver that under nourished, unhealthy baby because you did not work. You will have that baby with no prenatal care to further encourage that the life you carry suffer with you. You should have been more responsible.


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

Sadistic doesn't quite seem to cover it...


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

marquest: "It is all about timing. They prefer to take the life after it is born. Execute humans or use them as target practice, starve the child after birth and with hold affordable health care. It is just their preference."

Who would "they" be? Sounds like the bogeyman.

"You should have been more responsible."

Well said.


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

Who would "they" be? Sounds like the bogeyman.

Nah, just the republican party.


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

***Who would "they" be? Sounds like the bogeyman***

JZ: "Nah, just the republican party."

A light-hearted jest. Glad to see a wonderful attitude on a beautiful Sunday morning. It's easy to be happy on such a beautiful sparkling sunny cool clean perfect day. Except for the mosquitoes.


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

Who would "they" be? Sounds like the bogeyman.

"You should have been more responsible."

Well said.

Agree with the description of "they" but ask "Who would they be"?????????

I think you are safe from mosquitoes outside but you probably will have a big problems with the flies.


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

This says it all. Just look at the photo at the link. Kasich signing the anti-abortion bill surrounded by men.

I agree with what Stephanie Marsh said at a rally today at the Texas State Capitol - "if there were a bill trying to regulate what men should do with their penises, they would be losing their minds!"

Here is a link that might be useful: image


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

I agree with what Stephanie Marsh said at a rally today at the Texas State Capitol - "if there were a bill trying to regulate what men should do with their penises, they would be losing their minds!"

Agree! Imagine trying to regulate or put laws on the male reproductive organ. Would NEVER happen.

Boy, I hope the more they talk about this the more women WAKE up and realize what is happening. The term is not "pro-abortion" Gov. Perry, it is "pro-choice". Pro-ability-to-make-your-own-choice.

When will the anti-choice (see, I used the right word) people realize that if you give women free and available access to birth control and health services that there would be FEWER abortions because there would be FEWER pregnancies. Restricting abortion is not the answer. Giving women the information and products they need is the answer.


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

Connecting the dots or looking at the larger picture do not seem to be strong points of the extreme right.

The mere mention of controlling male reproductive capabilities would bring on apoplexy!


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

At the link are some quotes from Texas Republican legislators on the pending legislation.

Here is a link that might be useful: link


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

Absurd doesn't begin to cover it...


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

I've made giant leaps into Assumptionland before by trying to give individuals (like the legislators in david's link) credit for possibly being intelligent. The stupid comes when they get into groups.


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

Here's something that gives you an idea of who these supporters of the ding-bat politicans (who will say or do anything to prove their "bona fides") are.

Enjoy.

Here is a link that might be useful: Oh, the irony (or is it stupidity?)


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

Yeah... he looks like someone who had an abortion... right.


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

And North Carolina chimes in, tacking the same ALEC anti-abortion stuff onto their anti-Sharia Law bill.

Here is a link that might be useful: link


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

People still haven't figured out what Planned Parenthood actually does, or how helpful it is to females, huh? Good grief!

Did I miss something? When was there a government coup in which each state gets to decide the religious based morals of its constituents?


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

I saw that story about North Carolina. I can't believe how much they are pushing this in every state they can. And not in such a way that the citizens can vote on it. Only the legislators get to decide. That seems wrong.

At the NC Governor pushed back a little, saying they were going too fast. Maybe he'll veto it if it gets through.

Somebody needs to challenge one of these 20 week bans to the Supreme Court.


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

David, I live in a beautiful state but the government of it is a source of constant embarrassment.


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

Somebody needs to challenge one of these 20 week bans to the Supreme Court.

That is the goal to get it to the Supreme Court. They feel they have enough conservative judges on the Supreme Court at this time to get R V W over turned. It is the only way to go to ban abortion totally. It worked with Voter Rights.

They are trying to move as fast as possible. If they do not win the WH in 2016 they are going to lose at least 2 justice which would lose their Conservative majority.

It is all in the plan to take the country back. Back to the dark ages of One man and what any man says.


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

How quickly they forget the state of things before abortion became legal... the deaths and mutilations, the botched procedures, the horrors of underground abortions that... much like prohibition... took place in spite of the fact that abortions were illegal...

And, excuse me, but who died and made a bunch of ignorant, extremely morally judgmental men in power lord of all women's uteruses and what happens therein?


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

Unfortunately in order to challenge the 20 week ban you'd have to be pregnant, have a reason to get an abortion post-20 weeks, be denied, have the kid anyway and then sue. Awkward, I think.


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

Unfortunately in order to challenge the 20 week ban you'd have to be pregnant, have a reason to get an abortion post-20 weeks, be denied, have the kid anyway and then sue. Awkward, I think.

Yes that is how Row was enacted. What is really sad is that once again women will die. Getting illegal abortions and dieing because the law is preventing doctors to give women the best care for medical problems that arise after the 20 weeks. Pro-death, Pro-control is what this process should be called.


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

"Pro-death, Pro-control is what this process should be called."

I would agree. It blows my mind that legislators can't see the bigger picture, or refuse to look at it.

"When will the anti-choice (see, I used the right word) people realize that if you give women free and available access to birth control and health services that there would be FEWER abortions because there would be FEWER pregnancies. Restricting abortion is not the answer. Giving women the information and products they need is the answer."

That's the larger picture, and the facts legislators refuse to look at... and they pass the consequences on to stereotypes...


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

"pidge

mom, I am appalled at these men who assume the power to decide what women can do with their own bodies

mom

Why aren't GOP women elbowing their way in, pushing these idiots aside and showing them how to run an effective political party. It's clear these men have no idea at all how to govern.

Men men men men, manly men men men

fouquieria


It's pretty obvious that these regressive, Republican, conservative, white men want government to intrude into the personal lives of women...whether they are responsible or not.

lily

Keep it coming old white men. Your days are numbered. You are NOT the boss of women

pidge

More than that, these men are almost all white,

mom

Men, in general, are not interested in women's rights.

pls8xx

Can we just say that old white men often don't have a world view that supports understanding the legitimate concerns of women?

jillinnj

Do I understand this correctly? Do you think conservative WOMAN agree with what these conservative MEN are saying? I am not addressing the color issue because I don't think it's relevant. But I am interested in what conservative woman think about this.

You are a conservative woman...do you think your body has a way of not getting pregnant if you are raped? Do you think it's OK that conservative MEN are trying to decide what you can do with your body?


jodi

find it despicable that a bunch of men and subservient women want to usurp those rights for their own sense of control over others, or for their own idea of what's moral...

jerzeegirl

This says it all. Just look at the photo at the link. Kasich signing the anti-abortion bill surrounded by men.
I agree with what Stephanie Marsh said at a rally today at the Texas State Capitol - "if there were a bill trying to regulate what men should do with their penises, they would be losing their minds!"

esh

Agree!

jodi:

And, excuse me, but who died and made a bunch of ignorant, extremely morally judgmental men in power lord of all women's uteruses and what happens therein?

.....


Us old white men are getting a bad rap here.

To answer Jodi's question. Women? The ones that vote for these men?

Wikipedia

" For more than 60 years after women’s suffrage the female population turned out less often than men. This was true from 1920 to 1980. However, after 1980 a reversal occurred and a gender gap in voting between men and women has been evident ever since. The range is from a low of 4 points in 1988, to a high of 10 percentage points in 1996. "

Men, men, men, men. Really? Let's check the polls.

"However, different polls---and different questions---lead to different answers. Pew Research Center also unveiled a poll leading up to the 40th anniversary of Roe, with data that defies conventional wisdom and asserts there's no gender gap at all on the issue of abortion. They find more women (49 percent) than men (45 percent) view abortion as morally wrong, and more women (30 percent) than men (29 percent) support overturning Roe. Gallup last summer found slightly more women (46 percent) considered themselves "prolife" than "prochoice" (44 percent)."

Another poll study

"If the Gallup and exit-poll data are right ---and they’re consistent with other polls I’ve seen over the years---- then it’s hard to see any evidence that differences between the sexes in views about abortion policy drive the gender gap between parties, in part because there’s not much evidence that such views vary much by gender."

Hay


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

If anything, if there's a political problem in this country, blame it on the women.

"In every presidential election since 1980, the proportion [of] female adults who voted has exceeded the proportion of made adults who voted.

In examining previous presidential election years prior to 2008, the numbers make this point clear. Of the total voting age population:

In 2004, 60.1% of women and 56.3% of men voted.
That's 67.3 million women and 58.5 million men - a difference of 8.8 million.

In 2000, 56.2% of women and 53.1% of men voted.
That's 59.3 million women and 51.5 million men - a difference of 7.8 million.

Sounds like it's the old white women you need to fear?

Hay


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

Do you, then, count yourself among the particular type of old white men described above, Hay? I should certainly hope not!

I would hope that most of the men who frequent this forum are a little bit more open minded, a little less rigid in their thinking, a little more modern and intelligent when it comes to the reality of reproduction and what women need, want... and had... before that particular group of like-minded legislators began their assault on the female persuasion.

Thankfully, I think many of the more extreme, dogmatic political characters will be pushed to the wayside, voted out of office as old relics of a bygone era with nothing left to offer a more progressive society.

Unfortunately, they're using their time left to push as much unpopular legislation through as they possibly can.


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RE: Not again.....rape and pregnancy.....

"“If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.”

An interesting conversation from MSNBC...

Here is a link that might be useful: Republican men are far too worried about the sanctity of sperm...


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