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Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

Posted by october17 5chgo (My Page) on
Mon, Jul 22, 13 at 8:14

I really like this column. This guy usually leans a little too far left for me, but I like this one - except for one little paragraph towards the end. It starts out: "All I know for sure . . "

We don't know anything for sure. So no one should be saying that.

Here is a link that might be useful: Phil Kadner


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

It is a good article.

I don't have a problem with

"All I know for sure is that a man carrying a gun approached an unarmed Martin, and Martin ended up dead. It seems simple enough to reach a conclusion from that."

I don't think it is in dispute that Zimmerman had a gun and Trayvon ended up dead.

~Ann


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

october, thanks for the article.
Ann, not hard to draw a conclusion, either. That Zimmerman shot Martin is an indisputable fact.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

I don't think anyone disputes that fact. Did he do it as cold blooded murder? Was it because Trayvon Martin was black? That seems to be the followup to the trial.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance*

mrsk, that is not what the paragraph was about. And it's october who questions it, not me.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

Anyone can draw any conclusion they like. And I agree with Phil, they will draw a conclusion based on their experience. And based on what they have been taught or based on someone else's past history. Etc. etc. etc.

It's knowing for sure that is not possible.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

Tomorrow, it may be another child who dies, white or black, a stranger or your child.

That is the chilling statement.

On "Meet the Press" this weekend it was mentioned that the NRA's philosophy is if you have a gun you will survive. Travon's survival would have been.....If he had a gun he could have stood his ground and shot George.

Travon was followed first by vehicle then chased on foot he had a right to fear for his life and "Stand His Ground" That is where the law will eventually lead......Who can draw their gun first.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Mon, Jul 22, 13 at 12:11

If Trayvon Martin had "stood his ground" and shot Mr. Zimmerman, Trayvon would be either dead or in jail now. Justice would have played out quite differently for a black teen with a gun. And I bet Mr. Zimmerman understood and continues to understand the difference.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

And then there's this...

Must we really continue?

Here is a link that might be useful: The Continuation...


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

Did he do it as cold blooded murder? Was it because Trayvon Martin was black?

Because he was black, Martin aroused Zimmerman's suspicion and was then followed; Zimmerman assumed a black kid in a white neighborhood was up to no good. Zimmerman probably assumed black kids roaming his neighborhood are armed.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

This is all speculation and drawn conclusions. You have all put your own spin on it. Just because you draw the conclusion, doesn't make it true - to you, or to anyone else.

"chased down"
"because he was black"
"Zimmerman assumed"

Right, the only fact we KNOW FOR SURE is that Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon. End of facts.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Mon, Jul 22, 13 at 21:04

Actually, october17 we know more than that. We know what he thought of Trayvon Martin.

According to the transcript of his call to the police, Mr. Zimmerman said, of Trayvon Martin

there's a real suspicious guy.....This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something

Somethings wrong with him. Yup, he's coming to check me out, he's got something in his hands, I don't know what his deal is

These a$$holes they always get away.

(Hmmm....I have no idea how part of the transcript became highlighted. I've never seen documentcloud so I don't know how it works)

Here is a link that might be useful: Link

This post was edited by momj47 on Tue, Jul 23, 13 at 8:07


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

Also: "$uc&ing coon."


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

As for me, I need to hear the audio of the call myself. I may hear something different than what the transcriptionist says "it sounds like he said".

I think that you should feel the same way. But, you are you and I am me.

You're not just on the bandwagon, you are really whipping those poor tired old horses.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

Wait a minute... who started this thread after the fact? I don't see Mom's name, or Elly's...

Anyone that wants to peruse the facts of the case can read the transcripts, hear the recording, and read a multitude of articles and stories... there's a heap of information to be had.

But how anyone can come away from all of it and still think Zimmerman is completely innocent is beyond my scope of comprehension.

The scuffle that ensued is almost irrelevant... it's what happened prior to that scuffle and how it ended that are more important in terms of guilt or innocence.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

I guess if someone wants to believe the murder of Trayvon Martin was somehow justified, they can twist the evidence any way they want.

It doesn't change anything. Trayvon Martin was murdered by George Zimmerman because Trayvon was in the wrong place at the wrong time.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

Tomorrow, it may be another child who dies, white or black, a stranger or your child.

That's a given. It has happened and nobody at HT is mourning their deaths.

To bring you up to speed, neighbors in the Shaw/Hayden avenues area in East Cleveland reported a foul odor Friday and police discovered a woman's body in a garbage bag in a garage. That led to a standoff a few hours later in Cleveland (near the City of Euclid border) on Chickasaw Avenue where convicted sex offender Michael Madison, 35, eventually surrendered.

Interviews with Madison and "lots of reasons" from what he said brought police back to East Cleveland Saturday, where they found two more bodies in garbage bags --- one in a backyard, the other in the basement of an abandoned home. The search continued Sunday.

All I know for sure is three black women are dead and they were killed by a black man.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

  • Posted by vgkg 7-Va Tidewater (My Page) on
    Tue, Jul 23, 13 at 9:52

Zimmerman's basic story was that Martin jumped out of no where, words were exchanged then Martin cold cocked him to the ground, jumped on his chest and started smashing his head into the cement.

Martin's basic story could have easily been that he jumped from out of hiding, confronted Zimmerman with a question of why he was being followed, Zimmerman then took a swing at Martin where upon Martin ducked and returned with a punch to Zimmerman's gut. Once Zimmerman doubled over from the gut punch then Martin kneed him in the face which bloodied his nose and fell him backwards whereby the back of his head hit the pavement. Martin then jumped on his chest to hold him down to repeat his question. Zimmerman being in pain pulled out his gun and ....

How's that scenrio for the other side of the dead man's story?


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

Again, there are simply too many unanswered questions, too many coincidences, too many loose ends... all within the bigger picture of Florida justice... and only one person alive that knows what really happened... and the story he tells doesn't exactly line up within reality.

Why the media chose to highlight this particular case, and not one of the hundreds of other murder cases within the nation, is another question.

But none of it matters at this point... it's over. A boy is dead, and there are a lot of people who feel that justice was not served.

We can keep beating this particular horse, or we can let it rest and instead turn our attention to the issue of the ingrained racism that still pervades our society.


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A different outcome in Wisconsin

  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Tue, Jul 23, 13 at 10:24

A 76-year-old man who fatally shot his unarmed teenage neighbor was sentenced to life in prison on Monday, days after telling the court he killed the boy for justice because he believed he stole his shotguns.

John Henry Spooner's home had been burglarized two days before the May 2012 shooting, and he suspected 13-year-old Darius Simmons as the thief. So he confronted the teen, demanded that he return the guns and then shot him in the chest in front of his mother when he denied stealing anything.

Spooner's own home surveillance cameras captured the shooting in Milwaukee and prosecutors aired the footage in court.

Here is a link that might be useful: Link


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

If home surveillance cameras showed the shooting confrontation, they also should have shown the burglary... I wonder where that footage is?

I also wonder if this man didn't actually want, on some level, to get medical treatment that he knew he couldn't afford, but he knew would be given by the prison system? Do we know anything about his medical and financial standing, or his criminal history, for that matter?


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

Jodi, your reply at 10:09, the last half of your last sentence? It's not going to happen in this forum anytime soon. We will most certainly continue to discuss it but more than likely not in a constructive way. Not yet, as too many are blind to the ingrained racism prevalent in this country. If we let them vote, allow them in our public schools, if we can vote them President ( twice) and we dont hang them anymore, then what is everybody's problem? How can racism still be practiced in this country?

Its easier for those who blamed the dead child Trayvon rather than the shooter to protest that too many want to make this about race (and besides, that kid looked just kinda scary in that scary hoodie) than to discuss WHY armed up Z thought Skittled Trayvon "looked suspicious" and what exactly that means- or the fact that racism is alive and well and demonstrated throughout this country and once in a while, in this forum, too.

Deflection: a useful tool when it works.

This Zimmerman case has been beat about to death with the majority of conservatives supporting Zimmerman in the country - the topic is also reaching its point of saturation in the forum. Maybe this will be the last thread devoted to the subject.

But racism? It will be addressed again in this country and in this forum, although how constructively, I dont know.
But as long as racism exists in the common numbers it does, it will be discussed and that is a very good, constructive thing, even if some just dont want to hear about it anymore.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

I don't know, Mylab... I can't wrap my head around the idea that some people feel others are beneath them, that every human being isn't deserving of the same dignity, the same rights, the same opportunities, the same treatment... the idea of inequality or prejudice escapes me totally.

I just don't understand how one person can look at another and NOT see an equal.

Our history is rife with inequality, with the use of other human beings as animals... and I can't understand where that kind of thinking came from, or why it persists.

You're right in that we'll probably never see an end to bigotry, no matter how often it's denied... we'll never see an end to prejudice or discrimination, no matter how subtle... and that's shameful. It's especially shameful in that our country's Constitution, the ideals we share as a society, the laws that are already in place (for the most part) grant everyone the same rights and freedoms.

So why, then, are our attitudes so divided?

Justice is hinged on the very idea that we are all thought of and treated as equals... but that's not what's happening.

I don't really care if some people don't want to discuss racism... it needs to be talked about. In my opinion, we should keep discussing it until it's no longer an issue, until it's no longer a part of our society.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

All I know for sure is three black women are dead and they were killed by a black man.

Is that all you know? Maybe you should slow down and stop bring HT up to speed and do some research.

While you were bring HT up to speed I guess you hit a speed bump at...... Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer, or how about Adam Lanza, or Ariel Castro' and all the innocent unborn kids he beat out of the woman he held captive. Timothy McVeigh and all the innocent men, women and children that were blown to the wind. These are the front page news day events. There are thousands of other daily White on White crime that happen in my state that do not hit national news.

Think about it in the last 6 months how many white on white crime have you read about or do those not concern you?

Maybe you should ask yourself why all you know is three black women are dead and they were killed by a black man

If you would like to know more than Faux News would like to share with you. Take a look at Justice Department statistics and you will know more than what you have been told.

According to Justice Department statistics, 84 percent of white people killed every year are killed by other whites.

The truth? As the largest racial group, whites commit the majority of crimes in America. In particular, whites are responsible for the vast majority of violent crimes. With respect to aggravated assault, whites led blacks 2-1 in arrests; in forcible-rape cases, whites led all racial and ethnic groups by more than 2-1. And in larceny theft, whites led blacks, again, more than 2-1.

Every murder, robbery, rape in my neighborhood has not been committed by are you ready for this??????.....white. I have white on white crime in my neighborhood and I wish they would stop.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

Ariel Castro' and all the innocent unborn kids he beat out of the woman he held captive.

I guess that this is different from the woman who chooses to abort that innocent unborn child because it is her body. Bottom line for the innocent unborn child is the same no matter who chooses to end it's life.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

If the innocent unborn child were A) actually innocent and B) actually a child.

But it's not, because it's not.

Bottom line for the woman is that it should be her choice, her body, when and if she gives birth.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

But if the innocent unborn child isn't a child, then why should Castro be accused of killing child?

Or it a child only when someone else kills it but not a child when the mother kills the non-child?

It seems to me that there are different definitions of unborn child here.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

You are actually arguing in defense of Castro?????

~Ann


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance


Just to be sure I understand if the "blob of cells" is aborted due to a woman's choice, it isn't killing an unborn child but if the same "blob of cells" is aborted due to someone else's actions then it is killing an unborn child. It is all about who does the choosing. The "blob of cells" only is only considered an unborn child when someone other than the mother kills it.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

jlhug, there's a difference between the woman choosing to terminate her pregnancy within the time allowed by law, and someone else terminating the pregnancy without her consent.

As for the charge against Castro, please see Ohio's Fetal Homicide Law:

Ohio Rev. Code Ann. § 2903.01 et seq. (2002) define aggravated murder, murder, voluntary manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter, negligent homicide, aggravated vehicular homicide, aggravated vehicular assault, felonious assault, aggravated assault, assault and negligent assault. The law applies to a person, which includes an "unborn member of the species Homo sapiens, who is or was carried in the womb of another."


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

I guess that this is different from the woman who chooses to abort that innocent unborn child because it is her body. Bottom line for the innocent unborn child is the same no matter who chooses to end it's life.

*

I think in some instances there are those that only respect life if it is wanted.

Young people these days go absolutely nuts the moment they find out they are pregnant--sonograms for "Nana" and "Mimi" at 7 weeks, names selected, nurseries readied, and if an expectant mother is murdered, well then someone took two lives and what a travesty, people are even CHARGED for murdering an unborn child.

But, if that child is unwanted by the mother and aborted, then all of a sudden life isn't precious, it's not a child, it doesn't have a name, no one wants a sonogram to be displayed on the refrigerator or Nana's I-Phone to show off at the nail salon or at church.

What hypocrisy.

Mind you, I support abortion rights up to a threshold.

But I don't like it, and I don't think it is morally right.

Abortion certainly is not congruent with charging a person with murder for killing an unborn child when killing or harming the mother.

Either it's a person or it's not.

It's not an "unborn child" that can cause someone to go to jail for ending it's life, "Mimi's grandbaby" on an Iphone, and yet just an unimportant blob of tissue, depending on the (convenient) circumstances.

As jlhug said, same bottom line.

This post was edited by demifloyd on Tue, Jul 23, 13 at 15:07


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

Ann, I am not arguing in defense of Castro. I am sorry that you took it that way. I am struggling with the differences in the right to life of "blobs of cells" or innocent unborn children.

I quite frankly can't think of a punishment horrible enough for Castro.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

jlhug, Have you followed this case and read how far along the woman was when she received his band of abortion? I assume all you know is that three black women are dead and a Black man killed them too. Pathetic,

I have a hard time believing any Conservative has any feelings for human life since it is so hard for them to wrap their minds around social programs. There is no religion or civilized society that believes in the philosophy of "takers".

But I guess the Nun's on the Bus and others that care for after birth Health Care, nutrition and education are just wrong. All that is necessary is to make sure they are born so some can have someone to look down on as lazy no personal responsibility takers. You know those that get their nails and hair done so people can judge them in the grocery line.

Oh those poor unborn fetus that need to be saved so we have something to look down on. What would we do in the grocery lines without them.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

Demi, I, too support a woman's right to choose up to a point.

The an unborn child's rights change depending on who decides what it's fate will be.

I guess you can have your cake and eat it too.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

Marquest, I was referring to your comment about Castro and his victims.

Nancy, is there an exception to that law that allows abortions? I hope so.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

is there an exception to that law that allows abortions?

Did you not read my comments before the cite?

Certainly you know federal law regarding a woman's right to choose, so why the disingenuous question?

I may be missing something but why the outrage over a state's fetal homicide law, and its use by prosecutors. It's not the woman who made the law, and it's not her decision -- if she survives -- which charges are to be brought against the assailant.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

Quite a deflection from the OP--but back to an HT wrangle about abortion. Yawn.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

Jlhug, yes.

It's my choice to decide if it's going to develop into a child or not, until it's actually developed into a child.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

The reason I posted this, jodi, is that I thought the guy presents a rational, non-biased way of looking at the whole thing. Here are the parts I think are rational and level headed. (Not hot-headed and biased like it's been here on HT.):

"The facts of the incident don’t seem to matter as much as the perceptions people bring with them. Based on personal experience, they know what happened.
snip
I’m not surprised. When it comes to discussing racism in this country, all evidence is ignored. History is distorted. Solutions are ignored.
It’s about what we know personally, our history, the experiences of our families, friends and neighbors. “Those people” are wrong. “We” are right."

I believe that, currently, there are many on both sides refusing to move on. We keep dragging up history and so race relations will ALWAYS be the same. It won't change untill we all let go.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

This Zimmerman case has been beat about to death with the majority of conservatives supporting Zimmerman in the country - the topic is also reaching its point of saturation in the forum. Maybe this will be the last thread devoted to the subject.

I believe that, currently, there are many on both sides refusing to move on. We keep dragging up history and so race relations will ALWAYS be the same. It won't change untill we all let go.

Denial is not going to resolve anything and neither is ignoring or minimizing the issues. Racial issues and gun rights are uncomfortable topics for some people and it is understandable how some want to cover their ears.

The Zimmerman case, because of the factual ambiguities, has allowed people to fill in the blanks with their own imagination and reach their own conclusions. It has been interesting to see not only here but on the various internet forums how many posters chastise others who disagree with their opinions and then accuse those who disagree with their opinion of having a race based or class based bias.

President Obama commented the other day on the reaction by Americans to the verdict. What I found interesting about his comments (and somewhat depressing) was his apparent resignation to the reality of racial profiling and more than that, to the dismal future of young black males stuck in blighted urban ghettos. He appeared to conceded that there isn't much that our government can do but that this is a conversation that should be left to people in private conversations in their homes, at their places or work, places of worship, etc.
Well, we see how that has worked out over time and now of course, yea, let's not talk about this any more.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

"He appeared to conceded that there isn't much that our government can do but that this is a conversation that should be left to people in private conversations in their homes, at their places or work, places of worship, etc. "

This depresses you heri?

"Well, we see how that has worked out over time and now of course, yea, let's not talk about this any more. "

You don't talk about it heri. You snarl about it.

Seems Obama agrees with me. Don't expect more cops on the street or more teachers in the classrooms to solve the problem.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

When I stated what you quoted Heri, my intent was to convey that of course the conversation in the country will continue but should it in this forum?
I suspect that most conservative's perception of the event will change on the very same day your's and mine does. IOW, everyone on this board has reached their conclusion and all the back and forth will never get you and me to see armed up with a gun, angry punk hunting Z as a victim in this anymore than many on this board will ever see that the barely 17 year old kid armed up with skittles was simply not suspicious of anything after all, so did not play a deserving role in his hoodie wearing, iced tea drinking death.
It's not going to happen, no matter how many threads we do.

People here who may harbor a racist bone in their body but angrily deny it will continue to angrily deny it, no matter how many threads we have on the subject. But imo, the topic of racism should continue to be discussed because the truth of it - imo - is that we all have racist tendencies of some sort which we must fight forever. That we have them is is not where the shame should lay, but the attitudes, words and deeds resulting from the racial tendencies are where the shame should be - imo only remember - and should be discussed.
As long as it's accepted that a light bulb of self awareness will never appear over their heads, the issue of racism in this country needs to be discussed and discussed until the issue isnt one so overpowering in this country.
Until no one would ever even think to demand to see a black skinned person newly elected as President's birth certificate.
Until nobody would ever think that Paula Deen's idea of that wedding would be anything more than gross nor would anyone ever dream of referring to the kitchen staff as monkeys to be thought of as unfunny and repulsive.

Continued focus and continued conversations will eventually convey that deep shame *should* always be attached to such ideas, but as long as we dont really expect it to happen in this small forum, then it can be a great thing.
But I do continue to believe the issue of the Martin killing needs to be let go of in here, nothing positive can come from more threads imo. and I fear it could end up trivializing his killing and the manner of it.
However, if you believe you can make a difference Heri, I most honestly and sincerely wish the best of luck to you because that would be just wonderful!


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

Food for thought in this article.

For instance:

"“If I see any violence, then I will remind folks that that dishonors what happened to Trayvon Martin and his family,” Obama continued in his national lecture for white people.


By then, violence had already broken out in Los Angeles, Oakland and elsewhere. It had already dishonored the Martin family and the country.


In Oakland, protestors blocked traffic on a freeway, smashed windows in downtown retail shops, slashed car tires and set a police car ablaze. One masked protester hit a waiter at a restaurant in the face with a hammer.
Addressing such violence would have required that the President reprimand hoodlums and thugs for their behavior. He declined to do so."

Here is a link that might be useful: An Asian American view


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

Addressing such violence would have required that the President reprimand hoodlums and thugs for their behavior. He declined to do so."

Wut? its Obama's fault?

~snort~


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

Yet race was a prism through which the President, self-appointed minority leaders and white liberals have adamantly refused to view crimes committed by black people against other racial groups.

If you look through the FBI's list of hate crimes, you'll see that the majority are committed against African Americans. That should be an important part of anyone's prism.

No one condones crime, so I'm not sure the point of the article other to place blame on President Obama for something -- anything -- and display the author's own racial intolerance.

Here's a gem: Rachel Jeantel can still learn to speak English properly.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

I don't think she's blaming him, but he sure didn't help.

"Rachel Jeantel can still learn to speak English properly."

Yes, she can. Would you hire her nancy? Maybe you should contact her and offer her a high paying job working with you. She just might be willing to relocate, for a good job, that is. All she needs is a chance. Come on, nancy.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

Rachel Jeantel can still learn to speak English properly.

The author makes a nasty comment about a woman who has not been accused of any crime, nor relates in anyway to the topic -- a stunning display of bigotry on the part of the author.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

I think the conversation on racism should continue... even here, on HT... though, we could choose another angle to discuss it from. The publicized case before us is only one in a million, and racism and discrimination go much deeper and are much broader than just a few shooting/murder cases.

Why don't we discuss the lopsided statistics for race within our justice system, within our prison system on a national level? Why don't we discuss "profiling" by law enforcement and other officials? Or what about stereotypes and their origins?

There are many angles we could approach the subject from... singular cases highlighted by media are only one facet of the racism and prejudice within our nation.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

"Why don't we discuss the lopsided statistics for race within our justice system, within our prison system on a national level? Why don't we discuss "profiling" by law enforcement and other officials? Or what about stereotypes and their origins?"

This has all been "discussed" ad nauseum. No one brings anything new to the table. Just complain complain complain. More money! More cops! More money! More teachers! More money! More money! More money!

Guess what. For decades more money was provided. Guess what. Everything has just gotten worse and worse.

Until you address the enormous amount of poverty perpetuated by single mothers (never married, never intended to marry), it will stay the same. Even if you give them a million dollar lump sum for having a baby, it will stay the same.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

There was nothing wrong with Rachel's English. She has some sort of speech impediment that needs to be corrected by surgery.

The prosecution should have pointed this out so that the Defense couldn't get away with the despicable way they tried to portray her. West made it seem like he didn't know this woman when in fact she apparently had talked to him on a number of occasions leading up to the trial. And he knew about her problem.

~Ann


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

I thought West treated this young woman abominably--he was rude, condescending, and eager to demonstrate his "superiority." And he was like tht to other witnesses, too.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

Exactly. But he accomplished what he set out to do. The first Juror that came forward commented on why she basically disregarded Rachel's testimony. She considered her uneducated, with poor communication skills. And that wasn't the case at all.

~Ann


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

Oh I agree Jodi, we should discuss the problem of bigotry and racism frequently in this forum for sure. Just not the Martin killing, as there is nothing to be gained any longer that I can see from any further discussion.

But bigotry and racism? You bet we should.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

And that's the shame, Ann... that the jurors couldn't see through what are normal ruses used by attorneys in jury trials... the idea to make witnesses look either credible or not.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

Posted by jodik 5 (My Page) on
Sat, Jul 27, 13 at 12:14

And that's the shame, Ann... that the jurors couldn't see through what are normal ruses used by attorneys in jury trials... the idea to make witnesses look either credible or not.

*

You don't know that that happened.

These, and other jurors, deserve a lot more credit than they get from people that have a predisposed bias before a case is tried.

Jurors are instructed how to weigh the credibility of a witness, and that is exactly what was done.

The evidence, from any account, simply was not there to support a conviction.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Sat, Jul 27, 13 at 23:04

The pertinent evidence was Unarmed Boy A pursued and shot dead by Armed Man B.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

It is a shame Jodik. And I think we do know what happened.

Juror #37 Quote: "I didn’t think it was very credible, but I felt very sorry for her. She didn’t want to be there. She didn’t ask to be in this place. She wanted to go. She wanted to leave. She didn’t want to be any part of this jury. I think she felt inadequate toward everyone because of her education and her communications skills. I just felt sadness for her.”

She totally disregarded the testimony of the one person that was the last to talk to Trayvon before he was murdered.

The second juror to speak publicly believes that Zimmerman got a way with murder.

~Ann


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Sat, Jul 27, 13 at 23:46

Good for them. Because that's what happened.

Obviously.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

Without a doubt, Florida's justice system could use an investigation by the Federal Justice system, their prosecutors in particular.

We're not the only people to believe that Zimmerman walked away from justice after committing murder, or that there definitely were racial undertones to the incident, most compelling of which were in Zimmerman's statements to the 911 dispatcher, and in the profiling that caused him to follow the youth to begin with.

I hope the Attorney General can find a way clear to launch an investigation into this and other recent trials in Florida that clearly show justice is not being served.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

They have raised 12 thou to buy Z another gun since the Attorney General is holding it as evidence.

They should have kept that secret that Z would be walking around with a gun. Do they not think that someone will shot him thinking they need to stand their ground because of his past actions.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

Murder? Did Zimmernan purposely kill Trayon? Sorry folks, but the evidence didn't show that no matter how much you wish it did...


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

You're right in that we'll probably never see an end to bigotry, no matter how often it's denied

We will never see an end to it because it is so often denied. Didn't take long after Jodi's statement for this:

We keep dragging up history and so race relations will ALWAYS be the same. It won't change untill we all let go.

Yup, let's forget history so we can get over this racism thing already. They don't understand that's not how it works. And they don't understand there's anything wrong with that thinking. We need to bring up history so we don't repeat the same mistakes. Therefore, it's not likely to change much in our lifetime. And that makes me very sad.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

The evidence, Tobr, was poorly presented by the prosecution and interpreted as "not guilty" by the jury... but that doesn't mean any innocence was proven. The bigger picture of justice in Florida is slightly skewed.

I think, Jill, that this is one issue that can't just be swept under the nearest rug because it's uncomfortable for some folks to talk about. I think if it's kept within the public realm as an ongoing conversation, it's more likely that attitudes may begin to change, or at least people will be more aware of the mistakes that have been made in the past, and may strive not to repeat them.

It's a very difficult issue to fix since it's so deeply ingrained within our systems... education, law enforcement, our system of incarceration, the justice system, and the various stereotypes that keep circulating.

We do have the power to elicit change, though, through the attitudes we teach the next generation...


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

Posted by jodik 5 (My Page) on
Tue, Jul 30, 13 at 9:51

The evidence, Tobr, was poorly presented by the prosecution and interpreted as "not guilty" by the jury... but that doesn't mean any innocence was proven.

*

Innocence does not have to be proven.

That is irrelevant.

Guilt has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt and it was not.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

We do have the power to elicit change, though, through the attitudes we teach the next generation...

Absolutely. And the only hope of it changing significantly is future generations. There are some that still teach racism to their kids, but it gets less each generation. Some of those taught it, do not grow up to believe it and do not pass it on to their kids. I am a living example of that.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

We both are, Jill... my parents were bigoted, but I didn't hold the same views... and I didn't teach those prejudices to my children.

Youth today, for the most part, seems much more tolerant and accepting of differences... and I hope this will be the catalyst that ends such division and hate.


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

the only hope of it changing significantly is future generations. There are some that still teach racism to their kids, but it gets less each generation. Some of those taught it, do not grow up to believe it and do not pass it on to their kids. I am a living example of that.

You and I only amount to anecdotal evidence of a generational shift in attitude about race. I wish I shared the optimism that you and Jodik have expressed, I really do. At times I start to believe things are improving but then I scroll through various internet blogs (including Yahoo News)) on topics like the Trayvon Martin case. 10:1 posts from bigots.
The fact is there is still a lot of racial intolerance, segregation, and the loathing of people of color who are perceived by some as a scourge on society.
The association of of skin color with crime, drugs, poverty, and blighted neighborhoods has provided a stereotype that has become an all too easy target for partisan attack and hatred. What began decades ago as the Southern Strategy is now part and parcel of mainstream Republican ideology. They just do a much, much better job in mainstreaming it these days through AM radio and FOX tv.

This post was edited by heri_cles on Thu, Aug 1, 13 at 3:15


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RE: Trayvon: Death by Intolerance

10:1 posts from bigots.

Read the comments after just about any article on any subject in any on-line paper. Its the same ratio.

Article: Rain today in the forecast.

Comment: Obama is a tyrant socialist taking money from hard working tax payers because global warming is a librul hoax.


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