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Chicago Holiday Crime

Posted by october17 5chgo (My Page) on
Mon, Jul 8, 13 at 8:54

The count is higher actually. It's 70 wounded and 12 dead.

Come on now everyone. I want to hear lots and lots of demonization of these shooters.

Here is a link that might be useful: 10 dead, 55 wounded in shootings


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Demonize the shooters? What are you saying October? These people killed people, wounded people, they had murder and mayhem on their minds, why shouldn't they be demonized.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

looking at your profile i'm assuming you're in Chicago area? I live just the next county over from Detroit...and yes i'd complain about the murder there till we're blue in the face...


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

It wasn't me... I've been home all week...


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Must have all been on the South Side of Chicago. Right, Heri?

Northern people would never do anything like that.

Hay


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Well, mrsK, what I mean is, the demonization of Zimmerman versus the "excusation " of "poor" minority criminals I so often see here. And everywhere else.

In the news here, all I hear is how terrible and understaffed the police are, what are the police doing to combat these crimes, blah blah blah.

Who is "raising" all these criminals? They are not wandering in from the cocoonish rural areas to cause mayhem and go back home. These criminals live right in or very near the neighborhoods they kill in.

They need - no, demand - police protection to walk little kids to school. How about doing something besides blaming the CPD? Anyone have any ideas? You already know my idea.

They knocked down housing projects and many of those residents disbursed out to suburbs. Guess what? Crime rates in the suburbs has risen since then.


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I don't recall anyone here excusing the behaviour of criminals, poor, rich , white or black....perhaps you could point me in that direction.

I really don't understand the connection to Zimmerman ...what has he got to do with urban criminals?


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

What do you suppose forces people into behavior deemed 'criminal'? And why do such crimes usually end in violence? People aren't born criminal, nor do they wake up one day and say, "Gee, today would be a great day to begin my career as a criminal."

People are normally forced into the world of crime by certain circumstances, such as economic... being a criminal of any type is usually not a choice preferred.

Unfortunately, a lot of crime ends in violence... it's the nature of the "business".


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

  • Posted by brute Florida 9B (My Page) on
    Mon, Jul 8, 13 at 15:25

If I were a betting man, I'd bet my bottom dollar that all of the shooters and most of their victims grew up fatherless.
This is what several generations of taxpayer-subsidized single motherhood has brought us. Many years ago I heard a quote that went something like: "When the White illegitimacy rate reaches that of the Black, this nation will become ungovernable."


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

The sad part is, some actually believe that rhetoric is true...


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Mon, Jul 8, 13 at 16:05

I always read the comments from the readers on these articles, and we have for your reading entertainment ...and of course these are from the "decent upstanding folks"


Who is our newest Ghetto Lottery® winner?
In all the excitement, I forgot who bet what

a lot of taxpayers were actually disappointed with the low kill ratio!

feral porch apes

....and then of course my all time fav "let us thank the Lord that no actual human beings were killed or wounded"


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Fatherless? That's the nail on which you hang your argument? I guess I better look out. I grew up without my daddy. Hm. Serving in the military overseas, does that count as "absent"? Oh no. I'm also pasing on that poor raising I received. I may as well give up.

P.S. this isn't misdirection, since the whole thread is misdirection, right?


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Posted by jodik 5 (My Page) on
Mon, Jul 8, 13 at 14:44

What do you suppose forces people into behavior deemed 'criminal'?

*

Not a DARNED THING "forces" anyone into criminal behaviorl

NOTHING.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

"People are normally forced into the world of crime by certain circumstances, such as economic"

Expected that one.

For you mrsK, I'll repeatto you again, what maybe you SOB'd:

Well, mrsK, what I mean is, the demonization of Zimmerman versus the "excusation " of "poor" minority criminals I so often see here. And everywhere else.

Mrsk, you said they should be demonized. But I want to hear you do it. You haven't done it, to these shooters.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

October, I feel exactly as you do about the shooters. Thanks for the explanation. And heck yes I'll demonize those that are guilty of these crimes. Choices, choices, choices. The media did a bang up job of demonizing Zimmerman. I'll wait for the jury to reach a verdict.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

"The media did a bang up job of demonizing Zimmerman. "

and they did the same of Trayvon......so your point would be?

Still not sure what the connection is to the terrible violence in Chicago and Zimmerman.

Well maybe I do know , I just don't want to believe that anyone would make a connection to Trayvon, unarmed and in a place he had every right to be, and the criminal activity in Chicago.

There is only one common denominator......


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

And the right wing media did a bang up job of demonizing Martin and idolizing Zimmerman. Including the fake photos of Martin with the tattoos - and Zimmerman guest appearances on FOX.


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There is only one common denominator......

Ding, ding, ding!

I swear, the more I read here, the more depressed I become about this country.


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chase: "and they did the same of Trayvon......so your point would be? "

Oh no, not even close. There was very very little about him.

Jodi: "The sad part is, some actually believe that rhetoric is true..."

Puhleez. Nothing will be done until everyone admits what the real problem is.


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Puhleez. Nothing will be done until everyone admits what the real problem is.

And that would be what? The thing that everyone has to admit is the real problem?


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"There it was again. He could see only one side of it. He was born so, educated so, his veins were full of ancestral blood that was rotten with this sort of unconscious brutality, brought down by inheritance from a long procession of hearts that had each done its share toward poisoning the stream. To imprison these men without proof, and starve their kindred, was no harm, for they were merely peasants and subject to the will and pleasure of their lord, no matter what fearful form it might take; but for these men to break out of unjust captivity was insult and outrage, and a thing not to be countenanced by any conscientious person who knew his duty to his sacred caste."

Mark Twain


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

OM. I know exactly what you mean about nasty comments on threads. I was reading about Teresa Kerry and her serious condition. The filthy nasty things the right wing nuts said about her and her husband...and then of course,Obama. This is the evil that unfortunately permeates our culture.


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" I was reading about Teresa Kerry and her serious condition.The filthy nasty things the right wing nuts said about her..."

Shouldn't read that junk. It does nothing to enrich one and when used in conversation, shows your personality at a disadvantage. Read the nice stuff abot Teresa; there's quite a bit. She's one gracious lady, from what I read.


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Something I just read tonight online--Travon Martin, portrayed as innocent kid with Skittles and iced tea may not be the person portrayed by the media and others.

From ABC News:

"The judge's decision comes days after Zimmerman's lawyers made public the contents of Martin's phone, including pictures of marijuana leaves, a .40-caliber hand gun, and a photo that appears to show Martin smoking pot.

The defense also posted online, texts Martin sent about getting into fights and being kicked out of his house by his mother."

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Another fact I've not heard--is that the products that Martin had on him are mixed with Robitussin or other over the counter medications to make a very potent drug referred to as Lean or Purple Lean.

The items are Arizona Watermelon drink and Skittles candy.

Yet--all I've heard is some kid drinking iced tea and eating candy. Now, that may or may not be the truth, but I've read online several sources that in fact it wasn't iced tea, but the Arizona Watermelon drink AND Skittles.

Of course it's not against the law to have those items on you, but the portrayal of Martin as totally helpless and innocent young man aren't all that accurate, if there are photos of him smoking dope, a photo of a gun on his cell phone, references to fighting and being kicked out of the house and these two very specific items known to be used to concoct homemade drugs, on him.

Does it have anything to do with him being shot and not being armed? No.

The jury won't be allowed to hear this, though.
Apparently the prejudicial effect outweighed the probative value according to the judge.


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"Another fact I've not heard--is that the products that Martin had on him are mixed with Robitussin or other over the counter medications to make a very potent drug referred to as Lean or Purple Lean."

Not a fact at all. Purple Lean has prescription strength cough syrup (with codeine). It does not have skittles or Arizona watermelon drink in it. It is Sprite, with jolly ranchers maybe. That info comes from the Urban Dictionary. It actually says quite forcefully that no one uses straight Robitussin in it.

EDIT - While you are giving us "facts", would yu mind sourcing them? Because I have a feeling that this one is a peach.

This post was edited by frank_il on Tue, Jul 9, 13 at 1:23


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Well, there are numerous sources that describe these ingredients as Lean or Purple Lean, as I said.

Google is your friend.

Regardless of what constitutes a slang term for a concoction for intentional recreational drug, the ingredients are used for such.

Call it Purple Lean, call it Purple Dog, the nomenclature does not matter.

The fact is it wasn't just "iced tea and candy" as some on this forum, and the media, has portrayed Martin. They were specific items known to be used to manufacture a drug to get high. I also did not know about the photos on Martin's phone of a gun, photo of him smoking marijuana, I did not know about his marijuana use, his reference to getting into fights and his reference to being kicked out of the house.

That was the reason for my post--that although I haven't studied this case like some, I am just now finding this out.

That means we are getting slanted information about Martin.


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Oh no, Google is your friend. I only found right-wing sites when I Googled "Trayvon Purple Lean". So, the burden is on you to give me your exact site that you learned these "facts".


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Well, Frank, there is no burden on me.
You no doubt saw the numerous sites I did.

I also read left wing blogs that said exactly what you posted about the Sprite.

So show me a non left wing site that says that these items have never been mixed with Robitussin as a drug and we'll talk.

The fact is, Trayvon Martin died with marijuana in his system.
From what I understand, that marijuana was illegal and that makes him a drug user.


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"The fact is, Trayvon Martin died with marijuana in his system.
From what I understand, that marijuana was illegal and that makes him a drug user."

I don't dispute the fact that he was a drug user. I am just telling you that Purple Lean does not have the Watermelon drink in it. It does not have skittles in it, and it does not come from Robitussin. Hell, when I was in the Navy, I tried to get a buzz from a full bottle of Robitussin, and I was unsuccessful.

P.S. The burden of proof lies with the person who made the statement of fact. So, please, give us your source.

EDIT - I don't know what left wing websites that you have looked at, but I have found exactly 0 of them that have said anything about Trayvon and Sprite.

This post was edited by frank_il on Tue, Jul 9, 13 at 3:17


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Must have all been on the South Side of Chicago. Right, Heri? Northern people would never do anything like that.
Hay

Is that just another provocation by you or do wish to address some question to me about the topic of this thread ?


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

"the demonization of Zimmerman versus the "excusation " of "poor" minority criminals I so often see here. "

October you still have not answered my question. What it is you think that makes a connection between Zimmerman and the Chicago violence,


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So, if nothing makes people turn to crime... then why do they do it?

Instead of deflecting the question, perhaps answer it would further the conversation.

Or does this thread have an ulterior motive?


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Because you owe me jodik, I remember an interview of a 15 year old boy that killed a german tourist and stole her car. When asked why, he said, she had a car and I didn't...so I took hers. I'm entitled to what I want,


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  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Tue, Jul 9, 13 at 9:14

Nothing will be done until everyone admits what the real problem is.

What is the "real" problem?

Right after Newton many of us, including myself, tried to explain our position on guns because of so much gun violence in urban areas ... and we were shouted down by the "right to bear arms" argument.

If guns are not the problem I ask again, "what is the problem"?


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GUNS!

Englewood and nearby blocks in Chicago has been Drug Central for years. Do we want it 'cleaned up' --, and hence 're-located' to our back yards? Do we know when the violence became fatal to so many people trying to survive there? Take a volatile situation; add guns to the mix; people die. Five hundred last year; on track for four hundred this year. But, you know, they aren't MY friends and relatives... Most Chicagoans will never be within miles of this inner city. (They get their drugs far from there, via a 'middle man'!)

Do we think we would be enduring this Zimmerman trial-as-entertainment, Black-v-White nonsense if Mr. Self-Appointed Protector Zimmerman had not had a gun? (If Florida had not had the 'stand and shoot' law?) Look at the little man going forth to serve and protect, self-appointed, made brave with his gun. He was a hero in his own movie! Would he have even been out there without the gun? Would anyone be dead, absent the gun?

BTW, I know something about Englewood from my DIL's years of teaching there. Watch HBO's "The Wire" for a complete picture of life in that and many other 'inner cities'.

I'm happy to see news reports containing not only the numbers killed by gunfire but also those wounded: 70 last weekend. This is a huge financial drain. Maybe if we involve $$$, more people will care.


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"Another fact I've not heard--is that the products that Martin had on him are mixed with Robitussin or other over the counter medications to make a very potent drug referred to as Lean or Purple Lean.

The items are Arizona Watermelon drink and Skittles candy.

Yet--all I've heard is some kid drinking iced tea and eating candy. Now, that may or may not be the truth, but I've read online several sources that in fact it wasn't iced tea, but the Arizona Watermelon drink AND Skittles."

That's pretty far fetched as a means of discrediting Trayvon.

Reminds me of a silly expression we'd never get tired of repeating as a kid: "If we had some ham, we could have some ham and eggs. If we had some eggs".

99% of the kids leaving a 7-11 and perhaps as many as 100% of MarkJames' cousins probably fit that profile: Walking out with candy and a soda.

Big deal that he had marijuana in his system. Another statistic that is not the least bit relevant to this case. Pot isn't going to cause much more than a stoned kid aimlessly walking around. If anything it'd make him even less harmful: something the prosecutors should use to their advantage in the trial.

Now, if I had some eggs, I could have some ham and eggs. If I had some ham.

Hay


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I "owe you"? Would you care to explain that? Your statement makes absolutely no sense.

And I wouldn't necessarily call that a criminal...

The age of 15 is still considered an adolescent, a time when many people make mistakes in their lives, and go through a learning process... one anecdote does not a criminal make... though that's not a typical answer for someone who makes a mistake.

Look at Judge Mathis... a self professed bad boy who admits making many mistakes as a youth. But he learned from those mistakes and turned his life into something quite positive. Yet, as a youth, he would be someone you'd label a criminal.

But we're not necessarily talking about youths who go for a joy ride at the expense of someone else. When it gets to the point at which someone is shot, I'd say crime is a little bit more intense, and the criminals a little bit more practiced and involved in whatever criminal enterprise leads to the shooting.

In today's world, one can't get very far without a high school diploma, and with the state of education today, not to mention all the inner city school closings, how are students supposed to accomplish that? Without that diploma, one can't even get a job flipping burgers at the local Burger King, but one still has to live... so it's often a last resort to sell drugs, or to become a petty thief, or one might join a gang and become involved in their enterprises.

We're living with the results of a world "we" created... meaning society.

I'm not sure how Zimmerman OR race fit into this thread... crime knows no singular race.


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And even more amazing. Chicago has the most stringent gun laws in the country. Let's try...what makes people want to kill other people? What makes them pick up a gun, a knife, a hammer, build a bomb, and treat a life as if it is nothing?


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"Because you owe me jodik,"

I shouldn't speak for Mrs, but I had to read it several times before it dawned on me that what Mrs is saying in response to your question is ...they turn to crime because of a "you owe me" attitude........not that you owe her....


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Let's not go back to discussing how easy it is to get around *local* gun laws. Gang-bangers can zip in and out of no-regs Indiana 'gun shows' in an hour. National gun laws change that. Compare gun deaths in demographic 'sisters' Chicago and Toronto: 500 v 34 in 2012.

Tally deaths in the inner city Before and After this swell of gun ownership in America.The *violence* has been there for decades; it's only gotten this lethal with guns. (They were using knives, hammers, bombs, *whatever* before, mrskun. Their livelihoods are at stake.)

Drugs will be sold *somewhere*, and this is the primary economic engine in some areas of the inner city. Generations grow up in this culture. You can find Seniors who have never been ten blocks from home. Nothing 'better' is expected. My DIL was lucky to find 5% of her junior high pupils living with a parent who cared. Most were fostered -- often for the money. School was often the only safe place and the only source of decent food.

The only idea I've had is boarding schools for kids whose parents or guardians will agree to the rules -- to give some kids a chance to see a way 'out'.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Thank you chase...that was what I meant.

jodik, a public education is available to every kid. We spend more per child on education than any country in the world. In fact, it is a law that a child must attend school at least until the age of 16. Someone has to make a choice to pick up a gun and shoot someone, someone has to make a choice to sell drugs. Life is all about choices. I have no sympathy for that 15 year old boy. He made a choice. He wanted something someone else had, something he didn't want to work for, something that for some reason he felt he was owed. That german tourist will never have choices again.

I have always preached to my kids, if something is worth having, it's worth working for.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

"A year after this city drew new attention for soaring gun violence and gang bloodshed, creating a political test for Mayor Rahm Emanuel in President Obama’s hometown, Chicago has witnessed a drop in shootings and crime. Killings this year have dipped to a level not seen since the early 1960s."

But Chisue is correct... crime and violence have always been a part of big city living. If not guns, then with other lethal weapons, and certainly intentions.

A rise in crime is to be expected during a holiday weekend... more people are on vacation, giving thieves more opportunity... and more people are under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol, which often leads to violence.

But overall...

"So far in 2013, Chicago homicides, which outnumbered slayings in the larger cities of New York and Los Angeles last year, are down 34 percent from the same period in 2012. As of Sunday night, 146 people had been killed in Chicago, the nation’s third-largest city - 76 fewer than in the same stretch in 2012 and 16 fewer than in 2011, a year that was among the lowest for homicides during the same period in 50 years."

Here is a link that might be useful: Chicago Tactics Put Major Dent in Killing Trend


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

"So far in 2013, Chicago homicides, which outnumbered slayings in the larger cities of New York and Los Angeles last year, are down 34 percent from the same period in 2012. As of Sunday night, 146 people had been killed in Chicago, the nation’s third-largest city - 76 fewer than in the same stretch in 2012 and 16 fewer than in 2011, a year that was among the lowest for homicides during the same period in 50 years."

No way I would live there again. It's a shame; used to be a great place to grow up. I'm lucky it was for me, early on.


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"The only idea I've had is boarding schools for kids whose parents or guardians will agree to the rules -- to give some kids a chance to see a way 'out'."

Yea, kind of like my idea for dormitory living for unwed mothers. No more free individual apartments. Everyone goes there, everyone has a job there - cooking, cleaning, babysitting, laundry, something to contribute. Everyone works, goes to job training, goes to school, etc. If mama does not comply, baby goes to boarding school and she gets the boot out to the street. You would see, in one generation, better schools and less crime.

THE REAL PROBLEM IS: you all know, you just pretend you don't.

It's ok. I'm house shopping. I'm getting out too. I just won't care anymore cause I'll be miles and miles away. I won't care anymore about my taxes being raised and thrown at perpetual poverty. I will quit reading the papers and quit watching TV. I'll become one of those people who just complain that THEY (politicians) should fix it. It's THEIR fault (teachers and cops). No one else has any blame or responsibility.


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"I'm getting out too."

I understand. I have really wistful memories of the West Side while I was growing up. I like to block out the riots, the rape of an old woman behind our garage, the men breaking into the house till Mom cocked her shotgun, the vandalism and theft.

"No one else has any blame or responsibility."

That's what really is scary.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

So, the solution is draconian state intervention. If you're pregnant and unmarried, off to a state-run dormitory you go.

Kinda like the Sisters of the Magdalene Order in Ireland? See link.

And if they mis-behave, take away their kids. I mean, there are just oodles of foster parents waiting, amirite? Or maybe they can go to state-run youth homes.

Because every body will tell you how much better kids do when raised by the state instead of a family. Yup, just look at the success stories of Native American / First Nation forced child removal and boarding schools.

Here is a link that might be useful: link


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Gosh, and here I'd go at it from another angle... the angle of ensuring the financial burden of the mother isn't too great while she's raising those children, providing a good education for our youth with decent schools, and ensuring there were actually jobs available, manufacturing and otherwise, that paid a living wage within the various precincts of a city through various encouragements.

Helping people so they can help themselves is often necessary. Why there should be such an aversion to offering some of that help, I couldn't say.

State run workhouses and convents or dormitories for "unwed mothers" and whatnot? Really? What's so wrong with having children while one isn't married? How is the marriage contract the end all to end all? How does that guarantee anything?

Why do I get the feeling some people would rather regress than progress?


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I blame it all on air conditioning. Used to be everyone was sitting on the porch. The kids were all playing outside. If your mom didn't see you doing it, someone else's mom sure did...and your mom knew about it before you got home. And you caught it from mom because you embarrassed her in front of her neighbors. You absolutely knew right from wrong. But doubt we'll give up the AC.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

elvis said:
I understand. I have really wistful memories of the West Side while I was growing up. I like to block out the riots, the rape of an old woman behind our garage, the men breaking into the house till Mom cocked her shotgun, the vandalism and theft.

You developed a fear of African Americans or perhaps inherited that from your parents as a result of the White Flight from Austin 40-50 years ago. That is unfortunate but choosing to spread those old perceptions and memories by recounting anecdotes of old woman being raped and burglarized (by, one would assume, young black thugs) is not helpful.

As far as not wanting to go back "there" that is also not helpful. You mean to the area where White Flight left segregated neighborhoods, aging homes, underfunded schools, shuttered factories and boarded up businesses ? No , white people used those neighborhoods,sent their kids to school there and worked there. Now that it is a ghetto who would want to live there including the low income people that live there now?

I think you should explain your comments pertaining to not wanting to return to Chicago because you no longer know this City and could not appreciate it when you were a child. The area where you lived in (Austin) was a changing neighborhood 40 years ago and quickly turned into a segregated, crumbling low income area. When you say I would not return "there" you mean to the ghetto, not to Chicago or to the Chicago area. The fact is Chicago has a low income segregated ghetto area which is dangerous, but 95% or more of the combined City and Metro area is nothing like your old Austin neighborhood.


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"What's so wrong with having children while one isn't married?"

Nothing. If you can afford to take care of them.
Everything if you don't have a dime.

Well, yes, take the kids. The mother's have a choice, if they don't prevent the pregnancy, they can live in the dorm and learn a skill or get education. Then they can support the kid. It's not "lock em up and throw away the key".

"Gosh, and here I'd go at it from another angle... the angle of ensuring the financial burden of the mother isn't too great while she's raising those children, providing a good education for our youth with decent schools, and ensuring there were actually jobs available, manufacturing and otherwise, that paid a living wage within the various precincts of a city through various encouragements."

Been doin this for generations. Doesn't work. The schools were good. They didn't go bad because of teachers. Like I have said before, if I lived a 15-20 min bus ride from the loop I would have a job - probably two jobs. There are jobs. You can't start at the top though. You can forget the living wage thing until after you've been working a while. That's why HS and college kids should get jobs.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

You developed a fear of African Americans or perhaps inherited that from your parents as a result of the White Flight from Austin 40-50 years ago.

How on earth did you gleen from Elvis' comment that the crimes were committed by African Americans?

In the neighborhood I grew up in
-a shot up body was found stuffed under a car.
-My neighbor's house was robbed and another neighbor had seen some guy sitting on her porch, smoking, with a portable TV next to him but didn't know the guy had just stolen it - thought it was probably a repair job being returned.
-There was a huge drug bust - some house said to be a major distributor of meth along the east coast.
-Some guy I knew from elementary school was decapitated for - nobody really knew. They thought he might have been stealing from his drug lord.

Guess what, heri - all those crimes had been committed by European Americans - aka white people!!

Maybe you're the only one who is seeing crimes being committed only by African Americans. When I read Elvis' comment, I had no race in mind. In my childhood neighborhood, you could count on the crimes being committed by whites.


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Well, now I know where stereotypes come from.


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This isn't the first time Heri has tried to tell me about the old neighborhood. She's even said I don't remember it correctly. I'm pretty sure I didn't go to school with her.
;-)

Whatever.


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demifloyd added: Well, now I know where stereotypes come from.

Yes you certainly do. They come from white liberals and African Americans, the people whowant to place their jack boot on the throat of the rest of America.

cait said:
How on earth did you gleen from Elvis' comment that the crimes were committed by African Americans?

Actually I did not gleen racial animus from one comment but from a litany of comments over an extended period of time. What emerges is a picture of a fearful young teenager whose family was one of the last to flea a rapidly changing neighborhood. The poster has related numerous stories of how the black panthers beat up students, how the blacks forced his family to leave that neighborhood, and how his mother remained embittered by this experience as well as the diminution of their home's value. Now these latest anecdotes of crime (his mother cocking a gun to ward off burglars, a rape in back of his garage) are just over the top, but to suggest they do not involve the exact same neighborhood and the black on white crime that has been related in the past is being beyond incredulous.

It is sad how some people form opinions predicated on strong emotions and fear early in life and are saddled with those emotions throughout their lives. They then continue to build walls and form defense mechanisms around them, often seeking to rationalize and justify racial fears. Often it flips into the pseudo-intellectual realm of reverse racism or equating racism within the black community (which does exist) with what minority African Americans have faced for generations and still experience every day.

It is difficult for one to challenge the fears that one has acquired at an early age even with the benefit of the education and experience we acquire as we grow older. I understand that, but I try to challenge people to continue to look inside themselves and to attempt to understand when and how they formulated their opinions about race. Did they accept the views that their parents had? Did they experience fear or were they simply taught to fear blacks?

Here a poster has, numerously described a traumatic upheaval of the neighborhood around him as he was a young teenager, beatings of students in his school by groups of black panther thugs, and rape and burglary just outside his door. Then white flight from a crumbling segregated neighborhood and a sense of relief, now even coupled with a repeated assurance to never return.
It's just a sad story and a sad way to grow up. Worse yet is how fear gets engrained and reinforced through the years and becomes impenetrable. Elvis has left the City and I am sorry he took some awful lessons with him based on such terrifying personal experiences.

This post was edited by heri_cles on Thu, Jul 11, 13 at 1:31


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

"It is sad how some people form opinions predicated on strong emotions and fear early in life and are saddled with those emotions throughout their lives. They then continue to build walls and form defense mechanisms around them, often seeking to rationalize and justify racial fears."

You're right heri, it is sad. But most fears are rational. Personal safety is also instinct, one that humans still have. I think it is a combination of experience and instinct.

"Often it flips into the pseudo-intellectual realm of reverse racism or equating racism within the black community (which does exist) with what minority African Americans have faced for generations and still experience every day."

Thank you for admitting that.

So heri, what do you think about all these thugs shooting all these innocent people in Chicago?


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Thank you for admitting that.
Not sure what part of my statement that you are thanking me for, but OK.

So heri, what do you think about all these thugs shooting all these innocent people in Chicago?

I don't know if they are all "thug" shootings but certainly they include gang related shootings, family disputes, and some alcohol or drug fueled rage that gets taken to the next level.
What do I think about it? First it is almost exclusively black on black or Latino on Latino crime so it has nothing to do with racism. However, it does have to do with the proliferation of guns and drugs in the inner City and various social and socio-economic issues that exist in those unsafe, run down old neighborhoods.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

"However, it does have to do with the proliferation of guns and drugs in the inner City and various social and socio-economic issues that exist in those unsafe, run down old neighborhoods."

Uh huh. Some real down and dirty demonizing there.


 o
RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

xxx

This post was edited by fouquieria on Sun, Jul 20, 14 at 3:47


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

"Actually I did not gleen racial animus from one comment but from a litany of comments over an extended period of time. What emerges is a picture of a fearful young teenager whose family was one of the last to flea a rapidly changing neighborhood. The poster has related numerous stories of how the black panthers beat up students, how the blacks forced his family to leave that neighborhood, and how his mother remained embittered by this experience as well as the diminution of their home's value."

It wasn't the blacks that forced them out, it was the crime. The violent crime. We're not talking pick pockets here.

I have had black neighbors for almost 10 years. Very nice people. Guess where they moved from? Englewood. Got a problem with that Heri? Nah. Didn't think so.

"Now these latest anecdotes of crime (his mother cocking a gun to ward off burglars, a rape in back of his garage) are just over the top, but to suggest they do not involve the exact same neighborhood and the black on white crime that has been related in the past is being beyond incredulous."

You are right heri, it is over the top. Time to move. You did. You living in Watts? No. Compton? No.

Yea, you just sit there and judge anyone who else who doesn't stay. Keep on.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

I choose to respond to reasoned, logical, well thought out points of contention that provide a reason for discussion, especially when they are directed at me. Conversely I tend to ignore or "stroll on by" posts that are either emotional, over-simplistic, juvenile, off the cuff, petty, picayune, or that I deem are otherwise unworthy of a response.

This post was edited by heri_cles on Sat, Jul 13, 13 at 7:52


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

demifloyd said:
I did not know about his marijuana use, his reference to getting into fights and his reference to being kicked out of the house.

Did you know that Zimmerman was on prescription Adderall?
Why was he prescribed that, do you now?
We know what he was prescribed now, but we don't know how much he was actually taking when he killed Trayvon
. Do you know the known side effects of Adderall and what happens to those who come off it? I posted a few links in my prior posts on this topic.

Is the reason that Zimmerman refused medical treatment at a hospital after the incident have anything to do with his concern that they would have found how much of that drug (and possibly others) that he had in his system?
Is his tremendous weight gain the result of coming off an Adderall addiction?
Have you ever smoked marijuana and if not, do you know whether the use of that drug tends to make a person more aggressive or more passive? Do you know how long traces of THC remain in ones blood after they have smoked a joint?


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

One doesn't even need to ingest marijuana to have it show up in the bloodstream... just being in the same room or in close proximity to others that are smoking can cause traces to show up.

But even so... passivity is the common result of marijuana ingestion... while Adderall is a prescription drug commonly used to treat ADD, and comes with a long list of dangerous side effects. It's a pharmaceutical strength amphetamine, for all intents and purposes... and can cause some very dangerous effects if used improperly or if the drug is not compatible with the patient's system.

However... Trayvon's use of marijuana is completely inconsequential to the case.

But weren't we talking about crime committed in Chicago over the 4th of July holiday weekend? Crime that would naturally rise BECAUSE it was a holiday weekend. More theft would occur because more people would be on vacation... and the use of alcohol and drugs would increase because it was holiday weekend... which would mean that altercations would increase because of the presence of alcohol and drugs... and because it was a holiday weekend.

Never mind the fact that shootings have actually decreased within the city of Chicago... article with stats posted above...


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

"But even so... passivity is the common result of marijuana ingestion..."

Also paranoia.

"...Marijuana can impair thinking, memory and learning for weeks after use. It produces a range of psychological and physical effects that can be unpredictable at times. It can relieve pain, control nausea and increase appetite. Marijuana typically gives a high, or feeling of well being, which is why it abused. But marijuana can also cause acute psychosis, or a temporary break with reality. Marijuana-induced psychosis happens more often in new users or in people prone to mental illness.

Marijuana can cause short-term memory and learning problems, dry mouth, impaired motor skills and red eyes. Within minutes after smoking marijuana, the drug increases the user's heart rate. Heart rates can double in some cases, which is a risk for people with certain heart conditions. Some people may feel relaxed after using marijuana; others may develop anxiety and paranoia. A person's reaction to the drug partly depends on the individual, the strength of the marijuana used and whether the person ate or smoked the drug."

Here is a link that might be useful: I Feel Like Everyone is Staring at me


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

"Never mind the fact that shootings have actually decreased within the city of Chicago... article with stats posted above"

Hip hip hooray. We are all celebrating here in Chicago. Wow, a hundred or two less than last year at this time. Woo hoo!

I knew none of you woud demonize these gang banger shooters. Gee, I just can't imagine why???????????


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Take a good look at the stats listed below for the year 2011... and then tell me how violent Chicago is compared to other cities... and then look at Chicago's population compared to those other cities...

Looks like Chicago isn't as bad as we keep hoping it is.

Here is a link that might be useful: United States cities by crime rate


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

"Is the reason that Zimmerman refused medical treatment at a hospital after the incident have anything to do with his concern that they would have found how much of that drug (and possibly others) that he had in his system"

Heri, thank you. That's the first time any of this Zimmerman stupidity has made sense. I could not figure out why a man so "injured" (read dripping sarcasm) would refuse treatment. I kept thinking if it was dang awful, why not get treatment? Not that it is an excuse, but golly does it explain.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

How can we demonize a portion of society and what happens within it that WE created through political policy? Look at the larger picture... don't just look at the small picture of one city and its crime rate within a black neighborhood.

Why does any city have these issues? The answers are in the larger pictures.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

jodi says:

"It wasn't me... I've been home all week..."

"Looks like Chicago isn't as bad as we keep hoping it is".

"Crime that would naturally rise BECAUSE it was a holiday weekend."

"A rise in crime is to be expected during a holiday weekend... more people are on vacation, giving thieves more opportunity... and more people are under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol, which often leads to violence. "

"Unfortunately, a lot of crime ends in violence... it's the nature of the "business".

ROFL.

You kill me. Excuses excuses excuses excuses. You've got a milliion of them, don't you.

Thanks for all the laughs jodik.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

  • Posted by brute Florida 9B (My Page) on
    Sat, Jul 20, 13 at 15:08

October17, it is rather fun to come here and bait the hardcore Leftists, isn't it? ;-)
They just keep clinging to their dream that the world will eventually turn into what they want it to, no matter how often reality butts into the picture.
I can see why Pat Buchanan is always smiling.
It's fun!


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Pat Buchanan smiling? That's a grimace from all his years of sphincter clenching.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

I see none of the links have been opened and none of the article read... as usual.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

  • Posted by brute Florida 9B (My Page) on
    Sat, Jul 20, 13 at 16:28

Heck, why not throw another link on the pile?

Here is a link that might be useful: http://whitegirlbleedalot.com/


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

I don't think of it as baiting. And I don't mean it as baiting.

It's just easy to poke holes in some posters' convoluted excuse making. (I just can't call it reasoning. Cause it's not. It's excusing themselves and blaming others.)


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

The key to this entire thread is in the second word of the title. It was a holiday.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

The old holiday excuse. Hey, the fourth of July is coming up. Be sure to stay home all week, jodi.

Jodi, I live in Chicago, that's why I post about Chicago. When have I ever said Chicago is worse than any other city? Never, did I claim that. Try to stay on point.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

As one poster said on another thread: "I wish the whole country had the same gun laws as Illinois".

How's that workin' for you?


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

"Jodi, I live in Chicago, that's why I post about Chicago. When have I ever said Chicago is worse than any other city? Never, did I claim that. Try to stay on point."

Yes, Jodi, try to stay on point (from a posting from a year ago).


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Frank, you are funny. Even if you are a cyber bully.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

The least thing people could do... I vituperate sarcastically... is make sure the lure is fresh and the hook sharp... good grief.

One does not require a residency within city limits to learn of its statistics... and a residency does not guarantee one a wide angled view or knowledge of real statistics.

Key word, from a year ago, is still "holiday". Hasn't changed.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

I am a "cyber bully," huh? I guess I did not realize that there were unconfident teenagers on this board. Who knew?


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Frank, you are funny. Even if you are a cyber bully.

Frank a cyber bully?

Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!!!

Thanks for the laugh this morning. Silliest thing I ever heard.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Yes, Frank, you are a bully. You and your pals here, all bullies.

So, calling me an "unconfident teenager", you meant that affectionately, then, don't you?


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Gotcha.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Nah.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

frank. I don't think she got your gotcha!


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Chase, I believe that you are correct.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Just as Frank knows what I'm thinking, I know what he's thinking.

And, I feel I've made my point yet again. None of you have condemned the "urban" shooters. As usual. Urban shooters, well, they have good reason to do what they do. Right? But, oh no, not those crazy white men. There's no excuse for them. You know, white = privilege. White = rich. White = greedy. blah blah blah


 o
RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Holiday crime in Chicago is committed entirely or primarily by blacks? Is that what you are saying? Otherwise I don't know what the "crazy white men" stuff was all about.

If you are talking about race, it would be helpful to us if you just came out and said so. As is often pointed out on this forum, we can't read minds.

Can you also explain who the "crazy white men" are--the ones who are privileged, rich, and greedy--and what they have to do with "holiday crime" in Chicago--particularly as acted out by blacks (if that is what you are referring to).

Too many disconnected theads -- can't connect them.

Kate


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

The "crazy white men", you know, the mass-murderer shooters. I think you know what I'm talking about.

Yes, all of the the bullet splaying murdering is done by blacks in Chicago. That is why no one here will condemn it. Or, they make excuses for it.

Good luck to all of your children and grandchildren. Have you taught them well how to exucse such behavior by others?


 o
RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Not sure why you think anyone here condones the violence in the inner city.

What do you want us to say?

It is terrible and frightening and tragic. The reasons are complex and yet in some ways simple.

What is the solution? You seem to know the answer...why don't you just tell us what needs to happen.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Frank, you are a bully. You and your pals here, all bullies. ..all of the the bullet splaying murdering is done by blacks in Chicago.

False. Frank is not a bully and no, not "all" gun crime in Chicago is done by blacks, although a majority of it is. That should not be a surprise because gun crime is prevalent in lower income areas which have a largely segregated population. Notwithstanding the fact that most gun crime is in these segregated, dilapidated and abandoned neighborhoods, using race as you did infers some causation between race and violence.

At times your posts remind me of another poster on this board who sometimes makes similarly false claims pertaining to race and who also expresses a degree of paranoia about others on this board, as though people are on an opposing team.


 o
RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Ok, heri. You get the prize. The first to insinuatie that I am racist because I have said that most of the bullet splaying is done by blacks (black gang members, more specifically).

Yep, saying it out loud (or in print) makes somebody racist. Uhhhhh huh.

Paranoia? LOL Where u living at heri? You ran far far away. Bout as far as you can get and still be in the US.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

The first to insinuatie that I am racist because I have said that most of the bullet splaying is done by blacks (black gang members, more specifically).

False, you said that "all of the the bullet splaying murdering is done by blacks in Chicago" and I cautioned that this is the kind of broad generalization that insinuates a connection between race and violence. I stand by that.

You seem to be quite focused on this issue and have some very strong opinions about it. The more you post the more insight I gain into what your views are, so keep posting.

As far as where I reside, what in the world does that have to do with anything? I am in a suburb of Chicago, so what?


 o
RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Heri observed: "...expresses a degree of paranoia about others on this board, as though people are on an opposing team."

IMO a person who believes that opposing teams should feel paranoia toward each other should avoid engagement in any/all team enterprises. Sounds very unhealthy.

___________________

Back on topic, what IS the topic? October, I've re-read your OP and the article at the link, and I don't know what to say, except that a lot of the murdering is going on in my old neighborhood, Austin. Heri has posted in the past that my family was part of the problem by engaging in "white flight." IMO, moving away was a real good idea, the handwriting was on the wall. Literally, in the form of graffiti.

It's truly a shame what Chicago has become. I won't go there, I'm glad I grew up when I did and experienced the best she had to offer: great schools, museums, parks, people. No more. Well, the museums are till there, but where to safely park?

From what I read, the crime stats are majorly contrived to make it look like violent crime has decreased, when in fact it has not. Fodder for a different thread.


 o
RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

"It's truly a shame what Chicago has become. I won't go there, I'm glad I grew up when I did and experienced the best she had to offer: great schools, museums, parks, people. No more. Well, the museums are till there, but where to safely park?"

We park by the Austin Green Line El stop and ride in through the Austin, West and East Garfield Park neighborhoods. Then we either switch to the Red Line as we'll do tomorrow for baseball or walk to our destination.


 o
RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Where do you get on the el, JMC? Oak Park? I grew up on Race Street, 2 blocks north of the el, at 5300 west. Austin High was my HS. Used to love to go to the Garfield Park Conservatory (of course).


 o
RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Elvis:
You are extremely naive in your opinions about Chicago and very misguided in your belief that the entire city is crime ridden and unsafe. It strikes me just like the comment that all crime is done by blacks did - over-the-top.

Most of the large metro areas in this country have segregated urban areas and many of them have crime and gun violence issues.

Anyone familiar with almost any inner city neighborhood would know that public transportation poses additional safety risks. Therefore, asking which bus or train to get on in the inner city demonstrates a degree of naivete that begs the question.

This post was edited by heri_cles on Fri, Jun 27, 14 at 23:08


 o
RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Heri mistakenly stated: "Therefore, asking which bus or train to get on in the inner city demonstrates a degree of naivete that begs the question."

I didn't "ask which train to get on", I asked which stop JMC gets on. I figured Oak Park, because it's relatively safe there, whereas Austin is decidedly not. I say you "mistakenly" stated what you did, because I can't see any reason you would speak in such a condescending manner except that you misread my post.

I forgive you.


 o
RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

I do not respect your opinion of Chicago based on everything you have posted here since you arrived including such things as the tall tale you told about an attempted gang rape behind your mothers garage that you later disavowed any knowledge of.

Don't mistake a loss of credibility with condescension.
One is justified, the other isn't.


 o
RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Today we'll use the Austin stop, the last one in the city of Chicago.


 o
RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Seriously? Be careful. According to multiple reports, that could be hazardous to your health. Positive attitude is very well and good, but...

This article is from 2012, the next one demonstrates that right now it's no better.

"I don’t mean to pick on it when I raise the question of whether Austin is “the city’s deadliest neighborhood.” By raw numbers, it is��"34 homicides in the past 12 months, eight more than West Englewood. Austin has had the most homicides in the city over the past three, six, and nine-month timeframes as well. But I’m bringing it up because Austin has the most crimes of different kinds, and it’s worth keeping in mind, at least, that it’s also the largest community area in Chicago by population: 98,514 in 2010, a little bit bigger than Lakeview (94,368). While there’s no question that there are a lot of homicides in Austin, whether or not it’s the “deadliest” depends on what number you want to base it on."

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/The-312/July-2012/Austin-Chicagos-Deadliest-Neighborhood/

_______________

Shooting

06/27/2014

4700 BLOCK OF W GLADYS AVE

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4800 BLOCK OF WEST AUGUSTA BOULEVARD

Shooting

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800 BLOCK OF NORTH LECLAIRE AVENUE

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Shooting

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800 BLOCK OF N LECLAIRE AVE

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Here is a link that might be useful: 2014 Austin Crime So Far


 o
RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

jmc01 - please report back to let us know you survived Elvis's old neighborhood.


 o
RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

•Posted by heri_cles (My Page) on
Fri, Jun 27, 14 at 13:46

As far as where I reside, what in the world does that have to do with anything? I am in a suburb of Chicago, so what?"

No you don't.

Ah, what's the use. You all have your agenda - excuse any and all bad behavior of black people.

Good luck to all of your children and grandchildren. They are gonna need it.


 o
RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

You know where heri lives? Really? Wow what amazing powers you have, October. (Elvis, that was sarcasm)


 o
RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

October no one excuses the behaviour of criminals and gang members...NO ONE......I have no idea why you keep saying that.

Why is it so darn important to you that they are black? Are the criminals because they are black? Are black criminals to be feared more than white or brown criminals?

No, they are criminals for many, many reasons some we should try and understand and provide strategies to overcome and some because poverty invariably incubates a criminal element.

Can you please show me one single, solitary comment where anyone here has ever excused criminal behaviour...much less because of their colour? One will do....


 o
RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

My money is squarely on jmc and her good judgement. The lady is very bright, worldly and I am sure knows exactly what she is doing.


 o
RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

The attached link is the latest posted by the Chicago Police Department...

As we've noted before, the numbers are actually down from previous years.

Here is a link that might be useful: Chicago Murder Analysis


 o
RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Jodi declared: "The attached link is the latest posted by the Chicago Police Department...
As we've noted before, the numbers are actually down from previous years."

That's the official CPD site Jodik has linked there!

I'll see your link with mine. But first, a preview:

"Chicago police officers drove through an industrial stretch of the hardscrabble Austin neighborhood and pulled up to the 4600 block of West Arthington Street. The warehouse in question was an unremarkable-looking red-brick single-story building with a tall barbed-wire fence. Vacant for six years, it had been visited that day by its owner and a real-estate agent��"the person who had called 911.

The place lacked electricity, so crime scene technicians set up generators and portable lights. The power flickered on to reveal a grisly sight. In a small office, on soggy carpeting covered in broken ceiling tiles, lay a naked, lifeless woman. She had long red-streaked black hair and purple glitter nail polish on her left toenails (her right ones were gone), but beyond that it was hard to discern much. Her face and body were bloated and badly decomposed, her hands ash colored. Maggots feasted on her flesh.

At the woman’s feet, detectives found a curled strand of telephone wire. Draped over her right hand was a different kind of wire: thin and brown. The same brown wire was wrapped around each armrest of a wooden chair next to her.

The following day, July 24, a pathologist in the Cook County medical examiner’s office noticed something else that had been obscured by rotting skin: a thin gag tied around the corpse’s mouth.
Thanks to some still-visible tattoos, detectives soon identified this unfortunate woman: Tiara Groves, a 20-year-old from Austin. She was last seen walking alone in the wee hours of Sunday, July 14, near a liquor store two miles from the warehouse. At least eight witnesses who saw her that night told police a similar story: She appeared drunk and was upset��"one man said that she was crying so hard she couldn’t catch her breath��"but refused offers of help. A man who talked to her outside the liquor store said that Groves warned him, excitedly and incoherently, that he should stay away from her or else somebody (she didn’t say who) would kill him too.

Toxicology tests showed she had heroin and alcohol in her system, but not enough to kill her. All signs pointed to foul play. According to the young woman’s mother, who had filed a missing-person report, the police had no doubt. “When this detective came to my house, he said, ‘We found your daughter. . . . Your daughter has been murdered,’ ” Alice Groves recalls. “He told me they’re going to get the one that did it.”

On October 28, a pathologist ruled the death of Tiara Groves a homicide by “unspecified means.” This rare ruling means yes, somebody had killed Groves, but the pathologist couldn’t pinpoint the exact cause of death.

Given the finding of homicide��"and the corroborating evidence at the crime scene��"the Chicago Police Department should have counted Groves’s death as a murder. And it did. Until December 18. On that day, the police report indicates, a lieutenant overseeing the Groves case reclassified the homicide investigation as a noncriminal death investigation. In his writeup, he cited the medical examiner’s “inability to determine a cause of death.”

That lieutenant was Denis Walsh��"the same cop who had played a crucial role in the alleged cover-up in the 2004 killing of David Koschman, the 21-year-old who died after being punched by a nephew of former mayor Richard M. Daley. Walsh allegedly took the Koschman file home. For years, police officials said that it was lost. After the Sun-Times reported it missing, the file mysteriously reappeared.

But back to Tiara Groves. With the stroke of a computer key, she was airbrushed out of Chicago’s homicide statistics.

The change stunned officers. Current and former veteran detectives who reviewed the Groves case at Chicago’s request were just as incredulous. Says a retired high-level detective, “How can you be tied to a chair and gagged, with no clothes on, and that’s a [noncriminal] death investigation?” (He, like most of the nearly 40 police sources interviewed for this story, declined to be identified by name, citing fears of disciplinary action or other retribution.)

Was it just a coincidence, some wondered, that the reclassification occurred less than two weeks before the end of the year, when the city of Chicago’s final homicide numbers for 2013 would be tallied? “They essentially wiped away one of the murders in the city, which is crazy,” says a police insider. “But that’s the kind of (expletive delete) that’s going on.”

For the case of Tiara Groves is not an isolated one. Chicago conducted a 12-month examination of the Chicago Police Department’s crime statistics going back several years, poring through public and internal police records and interviewing crime victims, criminologists, and police sources of various ranks. We identified 10 people, including Groves, who were beaten, burned, suffocated, or shot to death in 2013 and whose cases were reclassified as death investigations, downgraded to more minor crimes, or even closed as noncriminal incidents��"all for illogical or, at best, unclear reasons.
This troubling practice goes far beyond murders, documents and interviews reveal. Chicago found dozens of other crimes, including serious felonies such as robberies, burglaries, and assaults, that were misclassified, downgraded to wrist-slap offenses, or made to vanish altogether. (We’ll examine those next month in part 2 of this special report.)

Many officers of different ranks and from different parts of the city recounted instances in which they were asked or pressured by their superiors to reclassify their incident reports or in which their reports were changed by some invisible hand. One detective refers to the “magic ink”: the power to make a case disappear. Says another: “The rank and file don’t agree with what’s going on. The powers that be are making the changes.”

Granted, a few dozen crimes constitute a tiny percentage of the more than 300,000 reported in Chicago last year. But sources describe a practice that has become widespread at the same time that top police brass have become fixated on demonstrating improvement in Chicago’s woeful crime statistics.

And has there ever been improvement. Aside from homicides, which soared in 2012, the drop in crime since Police Superintendent Garry McCarthy arrived in May 2011 is unprecedented��"and, some of his detractors say, unbelievable. Crime hasn’t just fallen, it has freefallen: across the city and across all major categories.

Take “index crimes”: the eight violent and property crimes that virtually all U.S. cities supply to the Federal Bureau of Investigation for its Uniform Crime Report. According to police figures, the number of these crimes plunged by 56 percent citywide from 2010 to 2013��"an average of nearly 19 percent per year��"a reduction that borders on the miraculous. To put these numbers in perspective: From 1993, when index crimes peaked, to 2010, the last full year under McCarthy’s predecessor, Jody Weis, the average annual decline was less than 4 percent.

This dramatic crime reduction has been happening even as the department has been bleeding officers. (A recent Tribune analysis listed 7,078 beat cops on the streets, 10 percent fewer than in 2011.) Given these facts, the crime reduction “makes no sense,” says one veteran sergeant. “And it makes absolutely no sense that people believe it. Yet people believe it.”

Here is a link that might be useful: The Truth About Chicago Crime Stats

This post was edited by elvis on Sun, Jun 29, 14 at 12:50


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Jodi declared?

I stopped reading


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Yeah... how about it, Chase?

Well... if people don't like that source, there are plenty more... and they all say pretty much the same thing... crime is down in Chicago compared to previous data.

"The city’s drop in crime has been nothing short of miraculous. Here’s what’s behind the unbelievable numbers."

Read on...

Here is a link that might be useful: Chicago Crime Rates


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

And then, of course, there's this...

"Every year, tens of thousands of guns make their way into the hands of criminals through illegal trafficking channels. These firearms contribute to the more than 12,000 gun murders in the United States each year.

This report seeks to explain where crime guns originate, where they are recovered in crimes, and whether state gun laws help curb the flow of these illegal weapons."

Here is a link that might be useful: The Link...


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Reporting in alive and well! Yet another non-event journey from A to B. Thanks for the vote of confidence, Chase.

I ride the same train twice daily through Elvis's old neighborhood. On the rare days that I don't take the train, I drive through it...often stopping, getting out of the car to do volunteer work or to visit a local garden center. Wouldn't live my life any other way.

Elvis, you might enjoy this...

Here is a link that might be useful: Austin including Race


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Sat, Jun 28, 14 at 20:15

jmc thanks for an interesting and educational article on the truth of urban living ... we have the same neighborhoods here in the city by the lake (Tremont, Ohio City etc) and I drove through there everyday to work before the creamery was sold. How sad that there are those that spend their lives in fear of "others".


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Thanks, JMC. If Austin does come full circle, that would be a joy to me. What's happening there right now sounds like what life was like growing up there: plus a lot of neighborly cohesion and without Sky Realty pushing (later called the "panic peddling" scandal). It sounds like the major difference is that the current residents are more affluent than we were and seem to have more influence over law enforcement. I grew up on Race Street, and no one locked their doors, we all played outside till dark, there were still many Elms. It was beautiful. In the aftermath of Dr. King's assassination everything changed very quickly, and life in Austin became very dangerous. When gangbangers tried to recruit my 10-year-old baby brother it was the last straw for my parents.

I'd like to go take a look at Austin Village sometime. I've Googled our old house several times over the years, and it doesn't look too bad. Of course, our wonderful gardens are gone. By the time we moved, gardening was pointless, as vandals and thieves destroyed/stole everything not locked down. They also robbed the garage once, torched it another day. An elderly woman was raped in the alley behind the house. Mom scared away a break-in person with Daddy's hunting rifle. My folks got $19,500 for it; Mom cried all night, all those mortgage payments for next to nothing, they sold to a nice couple who probably didn't stick around long, as Austin's troubles were just starting to really pick up momentum. That was 1970.

The once stellar Austin High, scene of numerous riots of which we students were victims, is closed now. It would be very nice to see the old neighborhood restored to its former tranquility and beauty.

BTW the Frank Lloyd Wright places were truly awful IMO, always were, they are not the gems the article told about. ;-)


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

"One popular refrain of the gun lobby and right-wing activists goes like this: because Chicago has significant levels of gun violence that must mean that strong gun laws don’t work. As former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich made this case on CBS This Morning last December: “The President’s hometown of Chicago is the murder capital of the United States…. If gun control works, Chicago ought to be safe.”

A new report released yesterday by the Chicago Police Department and Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel provides some hard data that makes the “Chicago is a cesspool of gun crime” argument a bit less compelling.

First, the report clarifies that Chicago is not the “murder capital” of the U.S. as Mr. Gingrich claimed. In fact, as the report highlights, while Chicago continues to suffer from “unacceptably high” violent crime, in 2013 the city had lowest murder rate it’s had since 1966 and the lowest overall crime rate it’s had since 1972. In fact, when you compare Chicago to other large cities, it ranks nowhere close to the top for murder rates. Chicago’s murder rate in 2013 was less than half that of New Orleans and Detroit, the cities with the nation’s highest rates of murder.

Moreover, localities in states with weak gun laws tend to suffer levels of gun violence that are far higher that cities and towns in states with strong gun laws. An April 2013 Center for American Progress report found that the ten states with the weakest gun laws had 34% higher overall gun murder rates, 88% higher rates of gun murders of women, and 139% higher rates of gun murders of police officers than the ten states with the nation’s strongest gun laws.

So, why despite relatively strict state and local gun laws does Chicago continue to suffer significant gun crime? The report released yesterday provides one clear contributor: lax laws in neighboring states. Between 2009 and 2013, 60% of guns recovered in crimes in Chicago were originally purchased in other states ��" suggesting that interstate gun trafficking is a major source of street guns in Chicago. In fact, this level of crime guns originally purchased in other states is double the nationwide average for portion of interstate crime guns (30% according to a 2010 report from Mayors Against Illegal Guns).

Mayor Emanuel’s report highlights that there are a number of way that laws could be strengthened further to make it harder for Chicago’s criminals to obtain and carry firearms. At that state and local level, the report recommends tighter gun dealer monitoring laws, noting that just four gun stores supply nearly 20% of Chicago’s crime guns. At the federal level, the report recommends universal background checks and stronger federal gun trafficking laws to combat the interstate market for illegal guns.

Of course, the report comes just days after the mass shooting in Santa Barbara, with both Republicans and Democrats now calling for renewed push for federal guns laws."

Here is a link that might be useful: Cesspool of Violence?


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

jodik posted that: "A new report released yesterday by the Chicago Police Department and Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel provides some hard data that makes the “Chicago is a cesspool of gun crime” argument a bit less compelling."

I added the missing link for yesterday's post, although I posted most the article then.

From that post yesterday, I'll repeat: "For the case of Tiara Groves is not an isolated one. Chicago conducted a 12-month examination of the Chicago Police Department’s crime statistics going back several years, poring through public and internal police records and interviewing crime victims, criminologists, and police sources of various ranks. We identified 10 people, including Groves, who were beaten, burned, suffocated, or shot to death in 2013 and whose cases were reclassified as death investigations, downgraded to more minor crimes, or even closed as noncriminal incidents��"all for illogical or, at best, unclear reasons.
This troubling practice goes far beyond murders, documents and interviews reveal. Chicago found dozens of other crimes, including serious felonies such as robberies, burglaries, and assaults, that were misclassified, downgraded to wrist-slap offenses, or made to vanish altogether. (We’ll examine those next month in part 2 of this special report.)"

Corruption? Chicago? Especially the police? The outrage.

Here's some of Part 2 of the investigation by Chicago Magazine:

"North Siders aren’t the only ones worked up about the disconnect between what Mayor Rahm Emanuel and Police Superintendent Garry McCarthy have claimed about falling crime and what they believe has actually been happening in their neighborhoods. Carrie Austin, the alderman of the 34th Ward on the Far South Side��"which includes Roseland, one of the city’s highest-crime neighborhoods told a Sun-Times reporter in January: “Don’t tell me about no statistics of McCarthy’s. You say, ‘Well, statistically, we’re down.’ That means crap to me when I know that someone else has been shot.”

Murders grab the headlines. But they make up less than 1 percent of the total number of crimes committed. So when Emanuel and McCarthy talk about the huge drop in crime since they took over in May 2011, they’re referring mostly to reductions in the number of break-ins, car thefts, muggings, sexual assaults, and the like��"the kinds of crimes much more likely to befall the typical Chicagoan.

“You can have a 100 percent reduction in murders, and as sad as this may sound, it won’t have anywhere near the effect [on the overall statistics] of a 25 or 30 percent drop in burglaries,” says Jody Weis, Chicago’s police chief from 2008 to early 2011. “If you’re looking at driving down crime, property crimes are the ones that are going to make a big difference.”

Much more at the link.

Here is a link that might be useful: CPD Lying Stats Part 2


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Ohiomom, we spent MLK weekend in Cleveland. Although dear friends live in Univ. Hghts, we stayed in the Flats and asked them to prowl Ohio City, Tremont and areas like those with us. Yes, we visited The Christmas Story house but we also prowled around and ended up at the West Side Market which was absolutely bustling. Just Wound around the streets off Euclid, Carnegie/Loraine. Great exploring!

This week, my goal is to spend some more time in Cabbagetown, tripping over crackheads and millionaires on the same blocks.

And then back to urban home life to be a tour guide for visitors!

Give me big, old, new, safe, crime filled, clean, dirty, CITIES like Chicago ( Austin, Garfield Park, englewood) any day!


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Mon, Jun 30, 14 at 6:17

I am so happy you enjoyed your time in the city by the lake.

"give me the big, old, new, safe, crime filled, clean, dirty cities"

I wouldn't have it any other way :)


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

•Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
Sat, Jun 28

. . . I drove through there everyday to work . . "

Yea. And if you drove/drive through with all your windows rolled up and door locked, you are racist.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Mon, Jun 30, 14 at 6:59

Well since my truck did not have A/C I actually "GASP" have/had my windows rolled down. You have to remember that I live in the hood, so this is not skeery thing for me :)


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Being wary of criminals is not a racist thing at all. It's a prudent thing.

....but thinking they are criminals because they are black is.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

I'm just plain old not thrilled with the crowds and rush of big city life, and I could never live in one... though, I do think big cities are nice to visit.

Chicago, for example, has some really beautiful areas, nice parks, good shopping/commercial areas, many nice residential areas, lots of culture... there's plenty to do and see... great museums, stadiums, landmarks, etc...

I just wouldn't want to spend every day in a big city. It's not for me.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Oh, thanks for clearing that up for me chase.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

•Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
Mon, Jun 30, 14 at 6:59

Well since my truck did not have A/C I actually "GASP" have/had my windows rolled down. You have to remember that I live in the hood, so this is not skeery thing for me :)"

Really? Bet you had that air fixed, quickly. And, I think you are being dishonest when you say that you were not skeered.

People in the hood, well they know what happens. They are just as careful as anyone else.

Here is a link that might be useful: yep, skeery


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Tue, Jul 1, 14 at 6:51

Actually I no longer have a truck, it broke down and I could not afford to fix it ... shrug ... I walk everywhere I go and/or take the bus and yes we urbanites are careful ... but not paranoid to the point of locking ourselves in our homes and hiding under the bed otherwise no one would live in the city and the cities are making a comeback here in the midwest ... as JMC pointed out.

You actually want me to be skeered because I live in a diverse community where the majority of the people are good and a minority are bad but the reasons have NOTHING to do with the color of their skin.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Wow. You don't lock the doors of your home either?


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

October, I don't drive anywhere with the doors all locked and the windows rolled up. How can one breathe without fresh air?

Didn't your child/child in law work in Englewood? did you see the announcement today that Whole Foods is opening a store in Englewood?

Drive by experts are so much fun!

Ohiomom, you are right - And livin' in the hood is even more fun!

I'm loving Cabbagetown!


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

yea. ok. sure.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Hey October, you still haven't answered my question upthread or the one on the .Zimmerman thread...I know you know the answers.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

I wrote: "As far as where I reside, what in the world does that have to do with anything? I am in a suburb of Chicago, so what?"

october 17 wrote:

No you don't.

Yes I do but again, what difference does that make?

Ah, what's the use. You all have your agenda - excuse any and all bad behavior of black people.Good luck to all of your children and grandchildren. They are gonna need it.

I do not want to be falsely accused of having a racial agenda or subjected to your conjecture about where I do or do not reside but in order to quell whatever issue you have with me I am not going to address you for a while. I do not wish get personal with other members here even when they try to drag me into something like you have done here.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

I understand, heri, about not wanting to be falsely accused.

Happens to me here. All the time.

And oh, sorry heri, I did say all of the bullet splaying is done by black people. Every time I see it on the news, it is. I changed it to most because maybe I don't see every news report, but believe me, if it was happening in another neighborhood, it would be huge news.

The "crazy white man" shooters are on the news every night for a week.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Heri said: "... I do not wish get personal with other members here even when they try to drag me into something like you have done here."

Well knock me down with a feather. It's no fun, is it? Been there...


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Drag you in?????


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Chicago really is the poster child of gun violence. 82 shot with 16 fatalities over the July 4 weekend.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

October said: "Drag you in?????"

I know, right? ;-D

________________

Duluth said: "Chicago really is the poster child of gun violence. 82 shot with 16 fatalities over the July 4 weekend."

Yup, the thread's a year old and the numbers are no better. If they were better, I'd be second guessing those stats if they came from the CPD.

I'm happy for those who enjoy Chicago, I'll enjoy my rosy childhood memories.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Has the purpose of resurrecting this old thread been accomplished yet?


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Dbl post removed

This post was edited by mylab123 on Tue, Jul 8, 14 at 22:45


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Actually I contemplated starting a new one with the new numbers, but decided not to.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Time to reintroduce these statistics:

Yet homicides have actually been going down since 2012 when the city [Chicago] surpassed 500. By 2013, the number of homicides had fallen to 415, still the largest in the nation and substantially more than New York City, with less than 350 and Los Angeles at 255. When computed as the number of murders per 100,000 people, Detroit zooms to the top of the heap in a virtual tie with New Orleans. But Chicago still has the largest number of killings.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

•Posted by mylab123 z5NW (My Page) on
Tue, Jul 8, 14 at 22:43

Has the purpose of resurrecting this old thread been accomplished yet?"

No, it hasn't.

We don't know where jodi was over the holiday weekend this year.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

........and October has ignored both of the questions I asked her upthread. Just like she ignored my question on the Zimmerman thread.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Talk about male behavior! Perhaps not manly, but very masculine, we love guns at any age for any reason...


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Heard on the radio about this surge in murders, again over the Fourth of July holiday, and that most of them took place in the South South of Chicago.

Lots of Bad Bad Leroy Browns generation after generation.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

•Posted by chase z6 (My Page) on
Sat, Jun 28, 14 at 12:02

They are criminals for many, many reasons some we should try and understand and provide strategies to overcome and some because poverty invariably incubates a criminal element.

Can you please show me one single, solitary comment where anyone here has ever excused criminal behaviour...much less because of their colour? One will do.... "

You answered your own question chase. Right above your "question" is an excuse for the behavior: poverty. All you guys do is come up with excuses for them, poverty being the main one. Being poor is the reason they drive around and shoot guns out the windows killing innocent people in their beds, on their porches, in their yards, in the parks?????????????????????????????????????????

Do you know what consistently excusing this criminal behavior does chase? Do you?

Now be sure and answer my question chase.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

October there is a difference between reasons and excuses. Reasons can be identified and corrected. Excuses justify behavior.

I ask you again to provide any example of anyone making an EXCUSE for criminal behaviour.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Oye.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Ok I accept the fact you have no examples of estate because I know, you know the difference between an excuse a reason.

What do you think the reasons are?


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Oye.

Ok, chase, we'll use your word then.

They have their reasons for splaying bullets around neighborhoods killing grandmas on porches, mothers in parks, children in their beds or playing on their living room floor. They have their reasons for doing such things.

And you all love to point out the reasons.

How's that?

This post was edited by october17 on Thu, Jul 10, 14 at 16:17


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

The question is what are the reasons that spawn such criminal behaviour........not what reasons the criminals have for their violent actions.

Now you have moved from accusing us of excusing violent behaviours to supporting the reasons the criminals have for their violent actions.

It is clear you have no examples of either because no one here has done that. There is no point in trying to discuss this with you ...over and out!


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

And still no acknowledgement that crime in Chicago is actually down... but I really didn't expect any to begin with, so...

Whenever someone wants to close out this thing, it would be appreciated.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

Jodi said (again!): "And still no acknowledgement that crime in Chicago is actually down... but I really didn't expect any to begin with, so..."

Crime down in Chicago? Mmmm. No.


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RE: Chicago Holiday Crime

What... no takers? Okay... I'll do it. I'll close the door on this one. Watch your fingers and toes...


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