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Does anybody care about these sons?

Posted by mrskjun 9 (My Page) on
Sun, Jul 14, 13 at 14:36

Black activists are marching in Sanford Fla. All over tv and in the newspapers. Why aren't they marching in the streets of Chicago, New Orleans, Detroit? This is not Dr. Kings dream. I've said it many times before and I'll say it yet again. We are losing an entire generation of young black men to black on black violence.

"Beyond George Zimmerman: where's the outrage about black-on-black crime?

The real tragedy in the African-American community is our own violent neighborhoods, yet hardly anyone talks about that"

Here is a link that might be useful: link


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Because black-on-black crime is the norm, not a generational thing.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Sun, Jul 14, 13 at 15:25

Any killing should provoke outrage, but apparently a white killing a black is considered justified. Black on black, and black on white murders not so much


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

The black community can't protest what they view as a major injustice because it doesn't fit with what some in the white community believe should be of more importance to them?


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

I saw that Guardian article earlier and, like the author, thought that perhaps "... Americans, especially black Americans, have come to accept blacks killing other blacks as normal."

I don't know if that's a restricted cultural mindset, a bit of self-loathing or exactly what. It just seems that if the fact of black on black crime can be acceptable as normal by the black community... why would a non-black commenting on it not be acceptable as normal and considered racist.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Sun, Jul 14, 13 at 17:56

This is the tragic situation in Baltimore. In 10 days earlier this summer there were 40 shootings and 10 deaths. I have coworkers who have lost brothers, sons, husbands to the violence. And everyone feels powerless to do anything.

The Three Hundred Man March - The idea was to stir Baltimore's men to action in their own neighborhoods and homes to stop the cycle of violence so frequently driven by drugs and gangs. While many have called on authorities to stem the tide, this was the first time the larger community has come together to fight back.

More than 40 people have been shot since summer began, with 20 of them struck in a single weekend. On Friday, at least four more people were shot by late afternoon.

Darrell Jenkins, 53, blamed much of the violence on the lack of positive male role models who can teach boys that force doesn't equal strength. The father of three came to the march to show his children that he cares about their futures.

The schools here in the city are dreadful, less than 50% graduate, and a lot of those who do, can't read or write. Young men and women struggle to find jobs that pay a living wage. Most jobs pay minimum wage, are only part time, and have no benefits, but that can put someone over the threshold for food stamps and health insurance. And you can't support yourself on $10,000 or $15,000 a year. Decent housing and transportation are huge problems.

Crime, especially drugs can provide quick, easy money. It's dangerous, there's no future, and the men die young.

Here is a link that might be useful: Link


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

July 11, 2013 (CHICAGO) (WLS) --A distraught Juanita Bonner and her relatives come to the place where her nephew Darryl Green died. The 16- year old body was discovered a few hours ago in the Englewood neighborhood.

"He never goes anywhere. It's just so shocking for this to happen to anyone," said Juanita Green Bonner, victim's aunt.

His body was found behind a boarded up home in the 6500-block of South Damen in the West Englewood neighborhood.

"It's somebody's child. . .you know, just laying down on that ground, dead. You know, just another life gone," said Eola States, Englewood resident.

Green was found by officers face-down on a set of basement stairs of an abandoned building.

Although witnesses say there were no visible signs of trauma to the body, family members say police told them Darryl had been beaten to death. Investigators at the scene did not confirm any details.

Relatives say the Harper High School student stopped attending class and think he may have been targeted because of his refusal to join a gang.

Darryl didn't make the news because very few care about Darryl. The NAACP hasn't commented on Darryl's beating and how unjust it was.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

mrsk,I think the only people who care about these sons are their parents, grandparents, siblings, friends. For white America, of which I am a part, these deaths are "somewhere else," not in my neighborhood and therefore largely invisible. For most white Americans, the institutionalized racism that blights our culture permits us to pretend that this is apart from us. Of course it is not.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

I think white or black, senseless deaths like these are barely noticed when they are "somewhere else". Until one strikes close to you (even if a friend of a friend), it's easy to turn one's thoughts to a different topic.

Not unlike when people hear about senseless animal deaths or destruction of mother nature. It's "elsewhere" ... it's not me. Someone else will take care of it.

But I don't think it's fair to say that no one cares about this. They care. They just won't do anything about it.

And if they would do something about it ... people in Atlanta, Knoxville, Dallas, Phoenix ... what would you have them do about it? Drive to Chicago and protest? Send money? Ask our worthless congresscritters to make new laws? Demand action? What action?


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

the racists just cant make hay when blacks kill blacks. And of course it is apart from us. We have no crimes like that here, there are no blacks, and up in erie it is black on black. It is a different cuture, that's obvious.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Seems like there has been plenty of action on the Zimmerman case. Protests and marches, media coverage continues, calling for further legal action by the DOJ etc. Half the time if the murderer is black and the one who is murdered is black, no one is even willing to come forward to testify, and rarely is there much media coverage or any activists stepping up to the plate to decry what is happening. Bill Cosby had quite a bit to say, but since most of it was personal responsibility, and expecting more, few wanted to hear him.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

I think there should be marches and protests concerning the Zimmerman case, so I am okay with that. I think, however, that the black on black killings are really a different situation and much easier to dismiss, as ff does above when he just washes his hands of the issue. I fear that the culture will have to take a huge transition to start to care about the b on b tragedy.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

mrskjun, you didn't say what you thought people should be doing to demonstrate their caring about these sons? What are YOU doing about it?

If you don't think people care, how is that made aware to you? What are people NOT doing?


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Sun, Jul 14, 13 at 20:45

Here is a good answer to your question MrsK, hope you take the time to read it.

Here is a link that might be useful: source of course


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What do parents tell their sons

  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Sun, Jul 14, 13 at 21:04

What do black parents tell their sons now?

That the death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin was just an aberration? That such a tragedy could never happen in our own neighborhoods? That our sons are just as free, and safe, to walk the streets as other children?

Not that any of this is new. For generations, black parents have been giving their sons "the talk." More essential than gas money, "the talk" is about what to do if you encounter a police officer. It's about the basic steps you must take to offset being profiled because of your race and culture: Be respectful, not belligerent, even if you have done nothing wrong and are being harassed. If driving, keep your hands on the steering wheel in plain sight. Don't make any sudden moves. Always announce your intentions to the officer before doing anything, and ask him if it's OK just to be sure.

If it's dark, turn on the light in your car before the officer approaches so he knows he can see you clearly. Do not consent to a search, even if you have nothing to hide. Always ask the officer if you are free to go or if you are being detained. And if you are being detained, clearly invoke your right to remain silent -- now more than ever in light of the U.S. Supreme Court's recent ruling in Salinas v. Texas.

Here is a link that might be useful: Link


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

om, I read it. My question is, if it is an epidemic, are there answers there?

esh, it's always the same. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. The media should get as involved in black on black crime as it's willing to do with white on black or black on white. The media whipped the country into a frenzy over the Zimmerman and Martin story. Why can't they do the same for Martin and Martin?

Bill Cosby,"Dr. Cosby", gave his reasons for what is happening. Do you think he is right or wrong? If he's right, do you think something can be done to change things?

Here is a link that might be useful: link


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Ok, so you don't want people to care, you just want media to cover it?

Is that your idea of "caring" about these sons?


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Good deflection esh. No one is pointing fingers at you. We are all guilty of allowing this to happen. But more the leaders in the black community than anywhere. And yeah, I want the media to cover it, otherwise people are not going to care. Out of sight, out of mind. As I said before, this is not Dr. Kings dream.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Sun, Jul 14, 13 at 21:39

No MrsK, your question was "does anybody care about these sons?"

When was the last time you attended an inner-city vigil for children lost to gun violence? There are many of them held across every urban landscape. I have, and trust me many people do care and a black mother grieves every bit as much as you do the loss of your child.

And while this forum seems to always focus on "black crime/gangs" why are you so silent when it comes to violence among other minority gangs? Don't you care if the child is Asian/Latino? What about the meth "epidemic" in rural areas? Where is your outrage?


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

That was no deflection. I'm trying to get you to identify what the answer to your question should look like. If we "care", how do we act to show that we care?

If all we do is cover it in the media and talk about it, how is that caring?

So my question is - how will you recognize when someone cares? What will they be doing?


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Where's that poster from jodik's SYG thread? Sie said they had the answers as to why black on black killings are occurring ... figured this would be the perfect thread for them to inform the rest of us ....


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Efforts have been made since LBJ' s Great Society to no avail. Shootings still occur on a regular basis in Providence after program after program have yet to help much, as no one has been able to solve the irresponsible child bearing that has been discussed here in the past many times...


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

This article argues that blacks are more likely to kill other blacks because of proximity, just as whites are more likely to kill other whites for the same reason.

Here is a link that might be useful: consider this angle


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

The Zimmerman/Martin outrage should be about gun control, not white or black. If children dying isn't getting anybody's attention, what will? I mourn our future.

Here is a link that might be useful: Rasheedat Fetuga about her son being sterotyped


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

I think the fact that schools have been allowed to deteriorate to the point of closings, or to the point of graduating students who still can't read or write should offer some very large clues... as should the individual job markets in these areas, which contribute heavily to the influx of drugs and drug sales...


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Speaking of poor graduation rates and jobs, we have a local region with a 40 percent dropout rate, 10 plus percent unemployment rate and 30 percent poverty rate.

Despite this, the area has an excellent job market and a shortage of qualified job seekers/workers.

Many of the jobs are filled by workers working overtime, working 2 or 3 jobs or out of area commuters.

Drug use and criminal records are just a couple reasons many aren't hired.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Mon, Jul 15, 13 at 8:49

The Zimmerman/Martin outrage should be about gun control, not white or black.

.....give it up Rob we were pounded on this forum after Newton by the "right to bear arms" crowd. Urban areas face gun deaths on a daily basis, not just the occassional disturbed school shooter. This is why urban mayors have a different take on gun control than rural America, we live with the consequences of "guns on the streets".


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

The stark facts are, not many of those guns used by criminals or gang members in the inner cities are legally registered weapons held by responsible owners. How can that be changed?

For every gun taken off the street, another appears via black market.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Again, what is the demonstration of "caring"? How can we show that we "care"?


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

The MSM has the power to showcase the violence and senseless deaths in any community it chooses.

Instead of asking if anybody cares about what happens every week in Chicago, it's about time we noticed the MSM doesn't.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

  • Posted by ohiomom 3rdrockfromthesun (My Page) on
    Mon, Jul 15, 13 at 9:48

The MSM has the power to showcase the violence and senseless deaths in any community it chooses.

.....our local paper and TV stations cover every instance of gun violence here in the city by the lake (daily), sorry but I don't really think the average citizen cares unless it happens "in their backyards".


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Esh, we've already shown that as a society we don't care... it's political policy at varying levels and an ingrained mindset that relegates certain population segments to the lives they live... in a manner of speaking.

We can't just look at the picture of one inner city and its crime rate... for a better view we have to look at all major cities and the history and policies that have shaped such a landscape.

How can we change it? By changing political policy and funding areas and programs that require it.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Go to google and enter "Chicago gun violence protest"

or "Baltimore gun violence protest"

or "miami gun violence protest"

and so on. Which are all about black-on-black inner-city shootings.

Plenty of protests and calls for action. But as Nik points out, this isn't national news.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

There is no hope for some 'better life' in the ghetto. There is only today. It's been that way for generations of black people in the innner cities. The residents are subsisting, the young men fighting over turf in the only economy beyond welfare: The drug industry. There are many mothers, fathers and children, but few families. Life is short and cheap, and there is no expectation it will change for the better.

My sole 'solution' is a voluntary boarding school for the children. They need removal from this rat-warren life. Welfare payments would go to the school, not the Baby Mamma or the foster 'family'. Education dollars could support the schools, but the schools would retain the right to reject students who do not respect the school rules. I'm not talking orphanages or total removal of a child from his family, but a boarding school, similar to white prep schools that teach values along with the curriculum. Parents can visit on designated days. Kids can go home on holidays.

This could save some kids in the short term and gradually shrink the hopelessness of being a Poor Black Kid without options in a White society that has shown it considers you worthless.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

I know Ohio, but I had to say it. I can't keep quiet, nor do I want it forgotten. Too many of our sweet ones, with so much potential, gone with a click. And no way to retrieve that lost life. It breaks my heart so much. All of them. Those on the news and those ignored.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

"If children dying isn't getting anybody's attention, what will? I mourn our future."

Me too.

Even here, on this forum, I am attacked for calling bullet spraying black gang members thugs.

There is no hope.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Yes, there is hope... but it involves major changes to policy and mindset... things that we, the people no longer control due to power and influence and the hands those things are in.

Mindset is heavily influenced by media and a flagging education system... and policy is owned lock, stock, and smoking barrel by corporate powers that governments bend to.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

I sense where your heart is, rob, and you seem to be hard-wired to be emotionally sensitive. Not entirely a bad thing.

Here's where I go off the tracks because the overwhelming percentage of victims in my fair city gunned down or bludgeoned (but more often stabbed since knives are something everyone has), in a drug deal or argument gone bad didn't seem really to have much potential to be actual contributing and productive citizens ... despite the paper and TV reporting friends and relatives all saying "they were turning their lives around", "loved his kids", "petted my dog". The pockets full of drugs and wads of cash found with the victim or arrested perp must have been walking around "stuff" such as the keys and wallet I might be carrying.

I'm not hard hearted; maybe a little older and realistic in my older age. The word for the day is "weltschmerz".


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Without condoning criminal enterprise...

I don't understand why a drug dealer can't love his family like any of us do... or want to turn his life around and make a decent living in a legal undertaking.

Those drugs are to sell... and those "wads of cash" go to the next tier above, or to the cartel supplying those drugs. It's not free and clear money that lower tier dealer gets to keep.

What I see is the much larger picture of social construct... in which people are more or less forced to resort to criminal enterprise in order to support their homes and families due to economic policy and other variables... to the point it becomes a generational, institutionalized thing.

No one grows up thinking, "gee, I'd love to risk my life and liberty through the sale of massive amounts of illegal drugs!"

No one gets a degree in home invasion, or goes to college to learn how to avoid the law while distributing crack cocaine or methamphetamine or heroin.

This is all something that has grown through various social constructs and political policy at many levels.

Opportunity is not equal for everyone, and not everyone will rise above poverty and the violence that has become part of inner city life. It's impossible to attach "personal responsibility" to this massive set of circumstances our nation's cities find themselves in.

The problem is much bigger than the guy on the corner selling crack... or the homeless person rifling through dumpsters... or the young prostitute supplying her habit through the sale of sexual favors.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

"Plenty of protests and calls for action. But as Nik points out, this isn't national news."

Thank you, David. The media has the power to make these endless killings a national outrage. It chooses not to.

Chicago, FTA: "A 16-year-old boy was one of three people killed in shootings Sunday on the North, West and South sides of the city.

At least six other people were injured in shootings across the city that continued into this morning.

The most recent of the three fatal shootings happened about 11 p.m. Sunday in the West Side's Lawndale neighborhood."

Here is a link that might be useful: different day, different child


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

The overwhelming amount of crime committed in my area is drug related as well - Meth. Thats usually white-on-white, deals gone bad, robbery to sustain the habit, etc.

If meth, marijuana, and heroin were eliminated from the equation, the prison population would drop by 95%.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

What I see is the much larger picture of social construct... in which people are more or less forced to resort to criminal enterprise in order to support their homes and families due to economic policy and other variables... to the point it becomes a generational, institutionalized thing.

*

What constitutes "more forced" and what constitutes "less forced" to commit a crime?


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

I guess, having family members who are addicts, makes me think--Even if it's just one person, that one person can make a difference duluth. Mommy has certainly made all the difference in my life. Now, I'm not talking about perfect, God knows she wasn't (neglect was her abuse), but she did teach me a thing or two about perseverance, about not giving up hope that anybody can get clean. If she can, anyone can. It's not an easy road, but it can be done. There were nights we sat in that car, going down windy mountain roads, or over overpasses that required choosing which lane (and if you didn't HUGE pylons looiming), with the babies hanging on, closing our eyes, and realizing we'd just left the liquor store. I can still see that brown paper bag behind the driver's seat. I hate that image. She's my one, but I am grateful there are two more. All have been clean and sober for more than 15 years (maybe she's made enough difference for those two too and it's how the domino effect is going in my life. I'll take it).

The problem is, we'll never know what difference they could've made. It might've been noteworthy, but now, they'll never have the chance to show us. They might've made the world put down their drugs, guns, and pick up their children. That chance is gone forever. Taken from them. I hear ya, but even if it's just one, don't they get a chance?


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

We have a school like that Chisue. It is the West End School for Boys. They are taken from the environment (not sure where funding comes from) into a safe haven where education becomes a priority.

But we only have the one.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

How correct you are, David... the "war on drugs" is just one more variable that contributes to the entire bigger picture.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

  • Posted by brute Florida 9B (My Page) on
    Mon, Jul 15, 13 at 16:03

I've always found the popular term, "Gun Violence" rather odd. I own a bunch of rifles, pistols, and shotguns and have never seen any of them do anything on their own.
Maybe I'm not paying close enough attention. Maybe tonight I'll just pretend to be asleep and see if any of them sneak out of the house to commit mayhem in my community.
If one of them comes sneaking back in, smelling of burnt gunpowder, it'll be off to the police gun buy-back event for him!
Can't have violent guns running around out there!


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

  • Posted by brute Florida 9B (My Page) on
    Mon, Jul 15, 13 at 16:35

Here's a true tale of "juvenile delinquent" elephants who ran amok because no older, dominant males were present in their herd to provide guidance.
Sound familiar?

Here is a link that might be useful: http://thesestonewalls.com/gordon-macrae/in-the-absence-of-fathers-a-story-of-elephants-and-men/


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

There are a number of organizations around the country addressing this, These stories are usually covered by local media, not nationally so you can peruse a number of local media sources to get an answer to your question. There are programs, government and private organizations, in Philly, Kansas City, Washington DC, Phoenix, and elsewhere around the country. For example you have the "Urban Peace Movement" in Oakland and one of many here in NY is the "Respect Project".

There was a conference held in Orlando earlier this year. The site also has links organizations that are addressing this issue.

Prevent Black Crime

This site was created to expand the scope and services of the National Conference on Preventing Crime in the Black Community. It is designed to foster collaboration, communication and action among practitioners by sharing innovative ideas, research and study of crime, causative factors and prevention strategies unique to the Black community. It will profile national initiatives and community strategies that have been successful in reducing violence and other inappropriate behavior. Special attention is directed toward positive approaches to the problems associated with juvenile crime. Resources for training, development and enhancement of crime prevention initiatives are included.

The 28th National Preventing Crime in the Black Community Conference is a collaborative effort sponsored by Attorney General Pam Bondi to foster communication and action among practitioners through the sharing of innovative ideas and prevention strategies that have been successful in the black community. A major component of the program will be directed toward alternatives to violence among our young people. The agenda is designed to showcase successful programs and promote a positive exchange of ideas on the subject. Over 1100 people attended last year in Tampa.


Another take on this directly addresses how the Darryl Green case was inserted into the Zimmerman/Martin story and is a different take on the problem.

"The Trayvon Martin Killing and the Myth of Black-on-Black Crime "
Last week, in Chicago, 16-year-old Darryl Green was found dead in the yard of an abandoned home. He was killed, relatives reported, because he refused to join a gang. Unlike most tragedies, however��"which remain local news��"this one caught the attention of conservative activist Ben Shapiro, an editor for Breitbart News. Using the hashtag “#justicefordarryl,” Shaprio tweeted and publicized the details of Green’s murder. But this wasn’t a call for help and assistance for Green’s family, rather, it was his response to wide outrage over Saturday’s decision in the case of George Zimmerman, where a Florida jury judged him “not guilty” of second-degree murder or manslaughter in the killing of Trayvon Martin.

Shapiro, echoing many other conservatives, is angry over the perceived politicization of the Zimmerman trial, and believes that activists have ”injected” race into the discussion, as if there’s nothing racial already within the criminal-justice system. Indeed, he echoes many conservatives when he complains that media attention had everything to do with Zimmerman’s race. If he were black, the argument goes, no one would care. And so, Shapiro found the sad story of Darryl Green, and promoted it as an example of the “black-on-black” crime that, he believes, goes ignored. Or, as he tweets, “49% of murder victims are black men. 93% of those are killed by other blacks. Media don’t care. Obama doesn’t care. #JusticeForDarryl.”

The idea that “black-on-black” crime is the real story in Martin’s killing isn’t a novel one. In addition to Shapiro, you’ll hear the argument from conservative African-American activists like Crystal White, as well as people outside the media, like Zimmerman defense attorney Mark O’Mara, who said that his client “never would have been charged with a crime” if he were black.

(It’s worth noting, here, that Zimmerman wasn’t charged with a crime. At least, not at first. It took six weeks of protest and pressure for Sanford police to revisit the killing and bring charges against him. Indeed, in the beginning, Martin’s cause had less to do with the identity of the shooter and everything to do with the appalling disinterest of the local police department.)

But there’s a huge problem with attempt to shift the conversation: There’s no such thing as “black-on-black” crime. Yes, from 1976 to 2005, 94 percent of black victims were killed by black offenders, but that racial exclusivity was also true for white victims of violent crime��"86 percent were killed by white offenders. Indeed, for the large majority of crimes, you’ll find that victims and offenders share a racial identity, or have some prior relationship to each other.

What Shapiro and others miss about crime, in general, is that it’s driven by opportunism and proximity; If African-Americans are more likely to be robbed, or injured, or killed by other African-Americans, it’s because they tend to live in the same neighborhoods as each other. Residential statistics bear this out (PDF); blacks are still more likely to live near each other or other minority groups than they are to whites. And of course, the reverse holds as well��"whites are much more likely to live near other whites than they are to minorities and African-Americans in particular.

Nor are African-Americans especially criminal. If they were, you would still see high rates of crime among blacks, even as the nation sees a historic decline in criminal offenses. Instead, crime rates among African-Americans, and black youth in particular, have taken a sharp drop. In Washington, D.C., for example, fewer than 10 percent of black youth are in a gang, have sold drugs, have carried a gun, or have stolen more than $100 in goods.

Overall, figures from a variety of institutions��"including the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Bureau of Justice Statistics��"show that among black youth, rates of robbery and serious property offenses are at their lowest rates in 40 years, as are rates of violent crime and victimization. And while it’s true that young black men are a disproportionate share of the nation’s murder victims, it’s hard to disentangle this from the stew of hyper-segregation (often a result of deliberate policies), entrenched poverty, and nonexistent economic opportunities that characterizes a substantial number of black communities. Hence the countless inner-city anti-violence groups that focus on creating opportunity for young, disadvantaged African-Americans, through education, mentoring, and community programs. Blacks care intensely about the violence that happens in their communities. After all, they have to live with it.

“Black-on-black crime” has been part of the American lexicon for decades, but as a specific phenomenon, it’s no more real than “white-on-white crime.” Unlike the latter, however, the idea of “black-on-black crime” taps into specific fears around black masculinity and black criminality��"the same fears that, in Florida, led George Zimmerman to focus his attention on Trayvon Martin, and in New York, continue to justify Michael Bloomberg’s campaign of police harassment against young black men in New York City.

Indeed, these fears are the reason that��"in predominantly African-American neighborhoods across the country��"police gathered and waited. There might be riots, observers said, and we have to be prepared. Why? The protests in support of Martin have been peaceful, and no one has called for violence or retribution. But that doesn’t matter.

America is afraid of black people, and that’s especially true��"it seems��"when it thinks they might be angry.

And this op ed written last year written by the director of the Schomburg Center for Research in Black Culture at the New York Public Library.
"Playing the Violence Card"

But the bottom line is there are many programs and initiatives that are out there trying to tackle what is a complex and multi-faceted problem which includes insitutionalized racism, lack of opportunities, etc. in underserved communities.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

How very interesting, epi.

But there’s a huge problem with attempt to shift the conversation: There’s no such thing as “black-on-black” crime. Yes, from 1976 to 2005, 94 percent of black victims were killed by black offenders, but that racial exclusivity was also true for white victims of violent crime - 86 percent were killed by white offenders. Indeed, for the large majority of crimes, you’ll find that victims and offenders share a racial identity, or have some prior relationship to each other.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

"Last week, in Chicago, 16-year-old Darryl Green was found dead in the yard of an abandoned home. He was killed, relatives reported, because he refused to join a gang. Unlike most tragedies, however��"which remain local news��"this one caught the attention of conservative activist Ben Shapiro, an editor for Breitbart News. Using the hashtag “#justicefordarryl,” Shaprio tweeted and publicized the details of Green’s murder. But this wasn’t a call for help and assistance for Green’s family, rather, it was his response to wide outrage over Saturday’s decision in the case of George Zimmerman, where a Florida jury judged him “not guilty” of second-degree murder or manslaughter in the killing of Trayvon Martin. "

My sentiments exactly.

Where is Jesse? Where is Al? Where is the outrage? Why don't they come here and march against gangs? Drugs?

This 16 year old was beaten to death for not joining a gang, for god's sake. I find their non reaction the most disgusting thing in the world.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Where is Jesse? Where is Al? Where is the outrage? Why don't they come here and march against gangs? Drugs?

What I don't understand is this constant mention and slamming of Jessie and Al. Whats the point? There's some sort of dog whistle going on here and I'm not clear on it.

Another way to put black people down? Otherwise, whats the point?


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

There's some sort of dog whistle going on here and I'm not clear on it.

I've noticed this even before the killing of Trayvon Martin. We're supposed to already know the 'sins' of the Reverends Sharpton and Jackson -- just as Al Gore is slammed for a number of 'sins' visible only to right-wingers.

I'm guessing that both Reverends are frequently called 'racists' in the right-wing blogoshpere because they speak of racial injustice, discrimination, and white privilege. I don't understand the logic, but the appearance of that narrative - Sharpton and Jackson are racists - appeared in HT a number of years ago. I didn't get it then, and I still don't get it; those comments are written as if the meaning were too obvious to even bother to explain.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

I've seen it for years now, usually as some sort of diversion - Yeabut Jesse and Al they're black racists so this white guy who just did something really stupid is balanced out......

But now, mixing it in with murdered black children, and all sorts of comments about the lack of outrage if they don't show up.

/Not getting it.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

"Yes, from 1976 to 2005, 94 percent of black victims were killed by black offenders, but that racial exclusivity was also true for white victims of violent crime - 86 percent were killed by white offenders. Indeed, for the large majority of crimes, you’ll find that victims and offenders share a racial identity, or have some prior relationship to each other."

I think when it is pointed out that most black victims are killed by other blacks, it it usually in response to the often-voiced concern about more blacks being killed than whites. Probably to point out that if more blacks are being killed than whites, it's not whites doing the killing. And?


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

david: "What I don't understand is this constant mention and slamming of Jessie and Al. Whats the point? There's some sort of dog whistle going on here and I'm not clear on it."

What I mean is if they really truly cared about the black community, they would be organizing against gangs and violence in the community - which happens every single day. The only time you see/hear them is when a white person is involved. They are all about themselves and stirring hate. They are not leaders.

The black people who do speak up are ostrasized by the black community, like Cosby. Why is that? I'm thinking it is because you just cannot blame or put responsiblity on black crimninals. As I have learned, especially here on HT, is deeply ingrained. Jesse and Al refuse to hold black people responsible for crimes, so they are popular.

No doubt you won't like my answer david.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

I liked the second paragraph october. Why don't we all organize against gangs and violence?


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Where I differ is when someone from outside a 'community' tries to determine just who their 'leaders' are. People in the 'Black community' are as diverse as people in the 'White community' or any other community.

And I just don't agree with "The black people who do speak up are ostracized by the black community, like Cosby. ". Are you saying that Cosby is another "leader" of the black community? Why is that? Ostracized just how? He's not invited to dinner on Sunday? Because I hear Mrs Obama, President Obama, and dozens more black leaders saying pretty much the same thing - quit feeling sorry for yourself and get an education, or you're going nowhere.

Remember when Cosby's kid was murdered by some racist thug? So, with that, he certainly does know something about hatred and racism and what that brings.

Are Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Nancy Grace, and that general group of scum feeders / exploiters-of-hate-and-outrage the 'leaders' of the white community? There they are as well, hovering around hot-button tragedies that involve race. They get quoted in the papers, they have their own media shows, they must be the leaders of the white community, right?

We just see what the sensationalist press wants us to see. And as with any community, the true leaders are the people who actually lead - the teachers, church ministers, boy scout leaders, Big Brothers, etc. And they never get on TV.

As for "leaders" of the black community, a recent poll ...

According to the online survey of 1,002 African-Americans, when asked the question “Which of the following speaks for you most often?” 40 percent said that no one speaks for them, while 24 percent said the Reverend Al Sharpton of the National Action Network and MSNBC speaks for black people, and 11 percent said the Reverend Jesse Jackson of Rainbow PUSH.

Meanwhile, 9 percent of black respondents named Congresswoman Maxine Waters (D‐CA), 8 percent said NAACP President and CEO Ben Jealous speaks for them, and 5 percent mentioned Assistant Democratic Leader, Congressman James E. Clyburn (D‐SC). Marc H. Morial, President and CEO of the National Urban League, and former Republican National Committee Chairman Michael Steele each received 2 percent.

I'll be the first to say that online polls are pretty much useless, but as an indication, 40% of the respondents said nobody speaks for them, which is higher than that of Sharpton and Jackson combined.

Whats funny - the only time I hear about them is from people who watch FOX and listen to right wing radio - so its sort of the same as all the liberals quoting Limbaugh - all the conservatives like to dwell on these two. I watch network news and PBS - I can't remember the last time I saw either of them on television or heard them on radio. Certainly far less than a whole lot of other black politicians and community leaders.

I find it interesting that while people are certainly aware of their own 'community' - the diverse leaders they listen too and elect / chose to lead them, at the same time they can just assume that for the 42 million Black Americans, they all just follow Jessie and Al.

I bet if you took a true, scientific poll, not some internet poll like the one above, you'd find that millions of blacks never even heard of Jesse or Al.

So, to me, this constant reference to Jesse and Al as true leaders of the black community doesn't wash, and the comments that they should be at this funeral or that funeral instead of this march are indicative of something else. Its a dog whistle.

/edited for grammatical errors

This post was edited by david52 on Thu, Jul 18, 13 at 12:14


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

I find it very comforting to know that a majority of people prefer to speak for themselves, rather than having some figurehead labeled as speaking for them... and it's very telling of the real mentality of people in general, as opposed to the one we're supposed to believe, that the mentality lies in the supposed chosen mouthpieces of the people... people who apparently follow blindly in lockstep behind those supposedly chosen mouthpieces.

Luckily, people can't hear dog whistles...

Thank you, David... a good post.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

I agree, great post David.

Rob, I too have family members who are addicts and some who have come clean. My goodness what a roller coaster. (((Hugs)))


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

So, to me, this constant reference to Jesse and Al as true leaders of the black community doesn't wash, and the comments that they should be at this funeral or that funeral instead of this march are indicative of something else. Its a dog whistle.

Thank you, David.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Yes, David, it's a dog whistle. I am not only tired of hearing it, but also don't trust the people who blow it. As soon as that meme enters a thread, I know what follows will smack of racist intent.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

I am not only tired of hearing it, but also don't trust the people who blow it.

I agree.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

I swear I posted my thoughts to this thread earlier.......

David, thank you for an intelligent and thought provoking post.

This particularly resonated with me.

"Are Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Nancy Grace, and that general group of scum feeders / exploiters-of-hate-and-outrage the 'leaders' of the white community? There they are as well, hovering around hot-button tragedies that involve race. They get quoted in the papers, they have their own media shows, they must be the leaders of the white community, right? "

There are some who hold the people you mention in high regard but I honestly believe most , outside of the more extreme right, don't.

So why is it that we would believe that blacks revere these two idiots , Sharpton and Jackson, en masse? Is it that they don't have the ability to reason and discern like white people?

There is only one answer and that is a deep bourne prejudice that is so deep and so ingrained in some that they don't even realize what bigots they are?


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Chase, I agree with you as well as with David. I have learned enough about how racism works to know that are probably some corners of my psyche that have some kind of racist beliefs of which I am totally unaware no matter how hard I work to erase them--I think that's true of all, or at least most, of us. I honestly believe that I am not racist, but I am never as sure that I am doing the right thing as I would like to be. i sure would never assume that "Jesse and Al" are the only leaders that African Americans admire and respect.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Chase: "So why is it that we would believe that blacks revere these two idiots , Sharpton and Jackson, en masse? Is it that they don't have the ability to reason and discern like white people?"

Very good point, IMO. I'll expand on that with this: "So why is it that we would believe that conservatives revere these two idiots , Hannity and Liimbaugh (just naming two), en masse? Is it that they don't have the ability to reason and discern like liberals?" Because even though you used a very similar choice of words above, I'm repeating it, because in point of fact this is just what has been said ad nauseum here on HT. And the posters seemed to mean it.

You're right, it could be considered bigotry, if it's intolerance or hatred,which isn't limited to intolerance of blacks. Could be a general intolerance or hatred of conservatives. Or southerners. Or christians.

If one assumes that prominent public speakers like Sharpton or Jackson are black leaders, how does that mean the one assuming this perceive blacks don't have the ability to discern? One could as easily say that assuming Hannity or Limbaugh are conservative leaders means that one is saying that conservatives don't have the ability to discern. While some may think it's okay to be bigoted toward a group as long as they are white/conservative/christians, it's not. That's bigotry too.

None of the bigotry is okay.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Guess you missed this sentence in my post......

"There are some who hold the people you mention in high regard but I honestly believe most , outside of the more extreme right, don't. "


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Guess you missed this sentence in my post......

She didn't miss it. She simply disregarded it and seized the opportunity to once again broad brush others by stating Is it that they don't have the ability to reason and discern like liberals?" Because even though you used a very similar choice of words above, I'm repeating it, because in point of fact this is just what has been said ad nauseum here on HT. , Once again linking everyone she considers liberal to one mind set instead of the reality that people including liberals have different opinions about many different things.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Chase: "Guess you missed this sentence in my post......
"There are some who hold the people you mention in high regard but I honestly believe most , outside of the more extreme right, don't. "

I didn't miss it, Chase, and I feel that language is sincerely yours and hopefully others from the left as well. Unfortunately this remains true: "because in point of fact this is just what has been said ad nauseum here on HT."

And I post the same question to those people who denigrate conservatives in a general way: "There is only one answer and that is a deep bourne prejudice that is so deep and so ingrained in some that they don't even realize what bigots they are?"

I think your post was great.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

What about white on white crime? Where is the outrage? What about Loughner shooting Gabby Giffords and others? What about the Sandy Hook massacre of Kindergarten kids?
Where was the Republican/NRA outrage over that Massacre?
Any suggestions or support for added gun control?


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

From the link provided in the OP concerning race:

"Today the main people holding blacks back as a race and taking them back to the days of Jim Crow are blacks themselves. Self appointed black leaders, advocacy groups like the NAACP and black members of Congress cry racist at every turn. Beyond this battle cry, they have no solutions to offer blacks a way towards greater economic prosperity and less violent lives."

Does the author of this tripe even know what Jim Crow was?
Blacks want to go back to Jim Crow? Really?
And what exactly are they complaining about? That "self-appointed" African American leaders are proponents of civil rights and equal rights?
And what is the Republican "solution to offer blacks a way towards greater economic prosperity and less violent lives?"

Oh we know. They want to end social security, medicare, medicaid, welfare and end the food stamp program. No more racial discrimination so why assist minorities with any affirmative action to get them into college and law school?
Cut taxes on the wealthy and cut government. Close down more and more public schools in our inner cities. End planned parenthood and make abortions illegal. Make it harder and harder for minorities to vote.

We know what the Republican plan is , it's ...."nothing" and actually less than nothing. They criticize any plan to raise up those at the bottom of society calling it "Socialism" . They mock the civil rights leaders who dare to seek equal rights and justice. And these are the same people who have been all too anxious to act as apologists for the unapologetic murderer of a black teenager, a kid who was simply walking home and who committed no crime.

As Ann Coulter tweeted when the Zimmerman verdict was announced "hallelujah". Yea, that'll teach those damned black Civil Rights leaders like Al Sharpton. Send him and Jesse back to Chicago with Obama to dodge bullets in the ghetto. That is what they should be doing. Right?


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

redsox -- That's encouraging. Could you find out who is running this school and how it's financed? (Are you in Boston?)

Increasing numbers of white kids are being drawn into drug use, dealing, and gangs. Maybe when it's not 'just the blacks', society will act.

A North Shore Chicago (white) boy was found murdered along a frontage road beside the Edens Expressway last month. There was a falling out among druggies (black and white).

Several North Shore Chicago HS kids from affluent families commited suicide by train last year. I have no way of knowing the reasons, but can guess at least some were drug-related.

Kids are dying of heroin overdoses at a rate of one a day this summer according to police in he western suburbs. (WBBM radio report I heard yesterday.)

You don't have to be a black kid in an inner city to feel alienated.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

To me, a very telling phrase is, "I'm not a racist... I have black friends"...

That's the point at which I say to myself, "oh, boy... here we go again..."

The black population no more has designated speakers than the white population does... and to assume they do is... well, I let everyone finish the sentence as they see fit.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

The left in this country wants so bad for this nation to be a white-on-black racist country. The Zimmerman case gave them fodder to work with. Black on black crime just doesn't advance their cause at all.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

What a bunch of carpola..........


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Dog whistle alert!


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Generalize much?

...The left in this country wants...The Zimmerman case gave them... doesn't advance their cause...

I find this to be a very bizarre statement. What on earth makes a person believe this?


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

The left? I think you are mistaken... and here's a little proof...

Here is a link that might be useful: The Sound of the Dog Whistle...


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Jodi, thanks for the link.

I wondered who Dan Riehl was based on his off-the-wall tweets; he writes for Breitbart. Nolte, and Shapiro too. Enough said!


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

david: Whats funny - the only time I hear about them is from people who watch FOX and listen to right wing radio"

Wrong. You heard about it from me. I don't watch fox and I don't listen to talk radio either. A self-serving drama queen hate spewer is a self-serving drama queen hate spewer. An idiot is an idiot. Race or party affiliations don't matter.

chase: "What a bunch of carpola.........."

Is that latin or something?

"self-appointed leaders". . ."they have no solutions to offer blacks a way towards greater economic prosperity and less violent lives."

Well said. Self-appointed. Huh. Interesting. What do you call them then? I suppose maybe leader is not the correct term for these guys. Hmmmmm. Got to think about that one.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Jodi, thanks for that link. I figured it would take some of the Obama-haters about two seconds to go ballistic over the president's remarks about race. Glad to see that at least one critic, Erickson, keeps a calm head and exhibits some common sense over the issue. We really will never come to any racial balance if we pretend that the mere mention of the issue in a reality-based way is itself racist.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

It turns out that the recently-acquitted yet much-maligned George Zimmerman was a friend to black America, having tutored black youths, stood up for homeless blacks and, yes, even supported Barack Obama, the black nominee for president, according to his friends.

Yes, I think that Obama has the pulpit to speak to both black and white America, and use it to bring us together. But I don't think the Trayvon Martin case is going to do that. When his own FBI could find no racism in the case. When the jurors could find no racism in the case. Then racism should be addressed apart from this trial.

Here is a link that might be useful: link


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

If you listened to the President that is what he was trying to do. Separate the two but at the same time acknowledging how the Trayvon homicide is seen the through the prism of the Black community.

There is a huge conversation that needs to be had here and in the US.

Black men commit a disproportionate amount of crimes.

Black men are incarcerated more often and longer for the same crime as white men are.

The majority of young black men are not criminals or thugs. They are just regular teenagers .

Young black men are treated differently by many, many people simply because they are black.. Being black conjures up a certain image when seen through the prism of many white people. These young men are assigned attributes and behaviors they don't deserve

Before any headway can be made everyone has to agree that these things are true and solutions need to be found.

The problem is not with the Black community or the White Community .......it is the problem of all our communities.

Only when we stop blaming the other guy for the sad, sad situation will anything good happen. We need to try and look at through the other guys prism.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

When his own FBI could find no racism in the case.

There have been no official findings yet since the FBI case is in progress. Tthey are witholding giving Zimmerman his gun back because the investigation is still in progress.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

  • Posted by brute Florida 9B (My Page) on
    Sat, Jul 20, 13 at 14:57

Dang! Them blue-eyed, freckle-faced, sandy-haired "teens" are actin' up again!

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-bash-mobs-southern-california-20130719,0,1569435.story


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Well, it's easy to 'go ballistic' if all you hear are cherry picked pieces of a statement... and that's exactly what was done to the President's short speech on the issue.

It was hacked apart by Fox News and used not in its entirety, but as the new dog whistle.



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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Re the LAT article: The police are now saying that the Hollywood 'flash mobs' were not related to the protests regarding Zimmerman.

The group on Crenshaw, some of which entered the Wal-Mart store, were not part of the larger prayer vigil at Leimert Park. There's video showing that group entering and running through Leimert Park on their way to somewhere else. One community activist stated that the man leading a small group into Wal-Mart is a known police informer.

Just to set the record straight from someone living in Los Angeles.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Thanks, Nancy. Quite frankly, I think there are those who wanted riots to happen, and they were disappointed when things didn't turn as heated or ugly as they thought.

Obama began a needed dialogue with his personal comments on this case and on racism in general, and he spoke to all the divisions we face ... but will people take it and use it as an opportunity? Or will criticism be the only thing to come of it?


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

If people were to truly make and take opportunities to move things in a positive direction, this forum and others like it would have far fewer participants.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

epi, when it is reported that the FBI "concluded" that there was no racism on the part of George Zimmerman, "concluded" does mean that their investigation was complete. Now that is not saying that Holder is not starting a new investigation, since I understand the DOJ has put up a website asking for tips.

I know that many of you won't agree with me, but I think this is picking at a scab that won't be allowed to heal. Yes, it was a horrible tragedy, yes, Zimmerman will pay for it for the rest of his life no matter what. No, we can't bring Trayvon Martin back. But we accept the findings of our judicial system often when we disagree. Race was never a part of this case in the courtroom. It wasn't considered by the jurors. I find it offensive that those with the most power are seeking to cause a greater racial divide.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

I think there are two separate issues going on.

Zimmerman was found not guilty of murder.....some may agree with that and some may not but the Justice system was followed and the verdict is was it is.

If one can remove Zimmerman's guilt or innocence from the equation and just look at the simple fact that a young , black man , in a neighbourhood be belonged in and by all accounts doing nothing wrong was killed. if Zimmerman had not followed him Trayvon would have reached home safe and sound without committing any wrongdoing.

Facts are that young black men are looked at suspiciously by many. That doesn't mean they are racist just that they have a reaction to young black men likely based on what they see and hear on the news and in their cities and towns

Young , black men,doing absolutely nothing wrong, are too often seen through the same prism that many view young, black thugs .

That's the importance of Trayvon's death.....to point out to us all that young , black men are often lumped into one category...not a good one...and as a result will be the receipt of hostile actions some fairly "benign" and some that can be fatal.

It would be so good if everyone could just put Zimmerman, the person, aside and look at the death of Trayvon through the prism of the black parents of young black men. They must be so frightened every time their son leaves the house.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

chase that was very well said. For anyone who has lost a child, the world is viewed differently. Every time a child leaves home, one is so careful to get that last hug, say I love you, and a niggling of worry until they return. This must be so amplified in the black community. Your last paragraph says it perfectly.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Sharon, I have listened this past week to a number of mothers speak of their fears when their sons leave home. One said that she always makes sure that she knows exactly what her sons are wearing in case she has to identify them. I can't imagine living with this kind of fear.

~Ann


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

I find it offensive that those with the most power are seeking to cause a greater racial divide.

If that's what you took from President Obama's comments, I wonder if you truly heard what he said. When Pidge paraphrased his comments, you agree.

I wish President Obama had added a few comments after saying to respect the jury's decision, and that we are a nation of laws.

Slavery was once allowed by law, and abolutionists worked to change to law. Jim Crow was once allowed by law, and the civil rights movement worked to change the law. 'Stop and frisk' was legal in NYC, and civil rights activists worked to change to law. There's a U.S. tradition of citizens protesting, organizing, and working to change laws that's perfectly in accord with the comment 'we're a nation of laws.' I wish that had been recognized -- that we're not obliged to accept a decision and say nothing -- and perhaps a few words on peaceful protest.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

At its base, what you describe, Chase, is institutionalized racism... profiling without even realizing it because of past, ingrained stigmas... stigmas that have remained a part of our society.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

"It would be so good if everyone could just put Zimmerman, the person, aside and look at the death of Trayvon through the prism of the black parents of young black men. They must be so frightened every time their son leaves the house."

Since I am not black and have not suffered the loss of a child, I will not presume to see the world through either of those prisms.

However, I am a parent. If my child were one of the nameless victims the media continue to ignore, I would wonder why. In what universe is that OK?


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

"Since I am not black and have not suffered the loss of a child, I will not presume to see the world through either of those prisms."

I am also not African American and though I have suffered the loss of a child, it was through disease and not having been shot. Yet I do feel that we can at least empathize with those African American parents who are all too familiar with the possibility of unnecessary death in their communities, even if they are middle-class parents whose homes are in gated communities.

As for the media ignoring the deaths of young African American males, I don't think they do. We are all always talking about that, reading about that, wringing our hands about that--I just wish that some of the programs people are trying to put in place will begin to have more impact.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Since I am not black and have not suffered the loss of a child, I will not presume to see the world through either of those prisms."

Human grief transcends skin color.

Black, brown, yellow - yes, even swarthy - people who lose their children suffer the same way white people who lose their children suffer.

/who knew?


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

"the DOJ has put up a website asking for tips. "

They need to contact david. He's found new witnesses re the struggle between the 17 year old and Zimmerman. (See other thread)


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

"Witness Says She Saw George Zimmerman On Top Of Trayvon...

The who-did-what portion of the trial started last week and testimony from Jeannee Nanalo, a resident of The Retreat At Twin Lakes, revealed that "the bigger person" was on top during the fight. After seeing the two men on the news, she could tell it was George Zimmerman on top.

you mean that?

Here is a link that might be useful: link


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

There was more than one witness that saw Zimmerman on top.

How fortunate for Zimmerman that the Jurors chose to believe only evidence that supported Zimmerman's fairy tale

Here is a link that might be useful: Link


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

The Guardian, huh? Snipets and summaries of testimony? No slant there.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

I listened to most of the trial and heard that specific testimony myself.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

So what does that mean...the bigger person was on top? Martin was 5'11" and Zimmerman was 5'7" tall.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Bigger does not necessarily mean taller.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

i don't know what it means except to say that is what the witness stated under oath.

It's over, the trial is over......Zimmerman was found not guilty of murder. End of that story.

Time to turn to the stories of young , black men who are labeled and harassed each and every day for no good reason other than the fact they are black and are mentally associated with drug/criminal/gang/ activity ....and treated accordingly.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

"So what does that mean...the bigger person was on top? Martin was 5'11" and Zimmerman was 5'7" tall."

Zimmerman was 5'8 and about 180 pounds. Trayvon was 5'11 and 159 pounds. Weight is what I think of when I think of the word "bigger".


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

I do too, Frank... and so does most of the world, hence weight classes in sports such as boxing and the like, and not height classes.

It doesn't really matter, though, as it's a done deal... and all that remains is working toward ridding our society of its inveterate racism.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

I do too Frank. My son is 5' 10" and 150lbs and he is skinny. Trayvon would not be considered the bigger of the two.


~Ann


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

. Weight is what I think of when I think of the word "bigger"

Indeed. Most people do. Just think of boxing and wrestling.There are standardized weight categories in both, not height.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Was the witness questioned as to what "bigger" meant?


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

If you had taken the time to read the link, you would have seen that one of the witness described the person on top as wearing..."some sort of a pattern between blacks and reds" Which is what Zimmerman was wearing.

~Ann


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

ann, looks like is the jury did not believe her (white jury, white witness) - for some reason that the article fails to discuss. I'm really not interested in finding out what it was. Could be she was dismissed as an attention seeker or drama queen, etc.. A lot of them around, everywhere you look these days. Who knows.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Yes, it seems the jurors dismissed all of the evidence that favoured Trayvon.

~Ann


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

"Yes, it seems the jurors dismissed all of the evidence that favoured Trayvon.
~Ann"

...Because of...?


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

"Weight is what I think of when I think of the word "bigger.""

If I'm betting on the winner in a fist fight, I go with the younger, taller, lighter guy. I would expect to see his speed paired with a longer reach take the other guy down. Then again, if the short guy is a wrestler, all bets are off.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

My money is on the big guy with the gun.

~Ann


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Yes, they care in LA

  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Thu, Jul 25, 13 at 12:24

Since the 1960s, the Watts neighborhood of South Los Angeles has been synonymous with gang violence and racial tension. Combative relations between police and members of the community have long been the norm.

Lately, there's been some improvement. Violent crime has dropped by almost 50 percent in three of Watts' toughest housing projects. There's been only one homicide there in the past two years.

It's a dramatic turnaround - one that's explained in part by proactive efforts by community leaders and changes within the Los Angeles Police Department.

Hang around the neighborhood for a few days, and it's clear the CSP isn't the only reason the projects are getting safer.

At a recent "Summer Night Lights" event at Imperial Courts, kids drink Kool-Aid, munch on chili dogs and get their faces painted. The older ones are in the gym playing in a basketball league. The gray, cinder block recreation center sits at the heart of the World War II-era apartment buildings lined with peeling green paint.

These days, the recreation center is for more than just sports. Perry Crouch, who's lived in Watts since 1955, does a lot of his gang intervention work here. He says residents and some former gang members here simply got fed up with all the violence and demanded change.

"What we have to do is lead through example," Crouch says. "You're not going to come up in here and fight and cuss and do all that and gang-bang; that ain't the lip."

Here is a link that might be useful: Link


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Illinois state rep. Bobby Rush is hosting a National Emergency Summit on Urban Violence.

"This summit is designed to address the causes and, most important, the solutions for gun, gang, domestic and youth violence. The daylong summit will take place Friday at Chicago State University." (from today's Tribune)

I really do hope it's not the same old finger pointing and demands for govt money. But I'm not holding my breath. Just can't.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

How large someone appears to be can be influenced by the clothing they are wearing. A thin person wearing loose fitting clothes may appear larger than a larger person wearing close fitting clothes. The perception of who was larger was also muddied by rain, poor lighting conditions and distance from the fight.

If I were on the jury, I'd most likely give the most weight to the testimony of the witness who was closest to the fight. That individual probably had the most accurate perception of who was on top.

This post was edited by jlhug on Fri, Jul 26, 13 at 7:28


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

"My money is on the big guy with the gun."

Or the small woman.

"If you had taken the time to read the link, you would have seen that one of the witness described the person on top as wearing..."some sort of a pattern between blacks and reds" Which is what Zimmerman was wearing."

What a snarky response. I read the same thing you did. Knowing that the human eye doesn't distinguish colors well in the dark, I can accept the account of what the witness "saw" as truthful but not necessarily accurate. The injuries on the back of Zimmerman's head didn't get there while Zimmerman was sitting on top of Mr. Martin. How do you explain them?


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Why, Mr. Zimmerman could have injured himself, after he murdered Trayvon Martin. By then he knew the cops were coming and he knew he could be in serious trouble if it didn't look like he was "defending himself".

And don't forget, Trayvon Martin really was defending himself - he was fighting for his life. He was being stalked and attacked by a stranger. Wouldn't you fight back?


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

That's an entirely plausible scenario, Mom... one I thought about during the media frenzy over this case.

It's mighty odd that the story told by defense doesn't exactly match up with the evidence provided... much of which appeared to be purely circumstantial. There were no prints from the Martin boy on the weapon used, slight wounds that were more consistent with a tussle on grass, etc...

It's entirely plausible that Zimmerman was coached post-shooting, and that more defensive looking wounds were added to back up his story.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

"So why is it that we would believe that blacks revere these two idiots , Sharpton and Jackson, en masse? Is it that they don't have the ability to reason and discern like white people? "

You said it, I didn't.

Well, who else is there speaking for the black community?

Not one of you mentioned Bill Cosby. Not at all. Why is that? Oh, yea. Those dirty words again. Personal responsibility. What a terrible terrible black man he is.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Why WOULD anyone mention Bill Cosby? He doesn't speak for the black community, either.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Bill Cosby's been mentioned a few times up thread. When he lays some of the blame on some doorsteps, some just don't want to hear it. That's my take anyway.

I'm sure he's long past the camera mugging stage now, as was so prevalent on his TV show of old, but the road from comedy to serious isn't always pothole free.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Well, who else is there speaking for the black community?

What a strange question.

Are you white? Who speaks for the white community? Do you think every white person on TV speaks for the white community?


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

How about, each person speaks for him or herself? Why would an entire race of people require one, singular mouthpiece? Do we all think and walk in lockstep? No.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Perhaps October doesn't realize how diverse the Black population is.

Maybe she doesn't realize how many are middle class even wealthy, educated, successful, educators, business persons, professionals., gainfully employed, tax payers and contributors to the communities they live in.

Maybe she thinks they are all like "those" kids in Chicago and their single, lazy, welfare collecting Moms.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

"I bet if you took a true, scientific poll, not some internet poll like the one above, you'd find that millions of blacks never even heard of Jesse or Al. "

How much would you like to bet on that?

"Maybe she doesn't realize how many are middle class even wealthy, educated, successful, educators, business persons, professionals., gainfully employed, tax payers and contributors to the communities they live in. "

Wrong, I know they're out there. Just don't know how many because they are so SILENT.

"Why WOULD anyone mention Bill Cosby? He doesn't speak for the black community, either."

What a shame. I know why you don't like him jodi. He uses those dirty words too often, doesn't he?

(personal responsibility)


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Posted by chase z6 (My Page) on
Mon, Jul 29, 13 at 16:57

Perhaps October doesn't realize how diverse the Black population is.

Maybe she doesn't realize how many are middle class even wealthy, educated, successful, educators, business persons, professionals., gainfully employed, tax payers and contributors to the communities they live in.

Maybe she thinks they are all like "those" kids in Chicago and their single, lazy, welfare collecting Moms.

*
Why speculate about what October realizes?
Why speculate about what October thinks?

October can speak for herself.

This post was edited by demifloyd on Mon, Jul 29, 13 at 20:53


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Wrong, I know they're out there. Just don't know how many because they are so SILENT

Here are just some of many who are actively out there...Sherrilyn Iifil, Reverend Calvin Butts, Ben Jealous, Marc Morial, Corey Booker, Julian Bond, Elaine Jones. Ted Shaw, John Payton, Carol Mosley Braun, Jeffrey Canada, Gwen Iifil, Sanford Bishop, Julius Chambers. Jonetta Cole, James Clyburn, Robert Franklin, Mary Futrell, Nikki Giovanni, Dorothy Height, Freeman Hrabowski, Vernon Jordan, Barbara Lee, John Lewis, Henry Marsh, Jacqueline Berrien, Gwen Moore, Eleanor Norton Holmes. Charles Ogletree, Marian Wright Edelman, Lani Gunier, David Kendall, Deval Patrick, Constance Rice, Vivian Pinn, Yvonne Scruggs-Lefwich, Diane Watson, Armstrong Williams, Pamela Karlan, Bakari Sellers,.... There are many many many more and more emerging.

All prominent leaders, none are silent albeit all have different points of views and different expertise and passions but all are outspoken and passionate about their beliefs and most are in the media often. I find it hard to believe that you haven't heard of many, if not at least some.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Well, who else is there speaking for the black community?

October, you evidently don't have much knowledge of what organizations and which individuals are active in the African Amercian community. Besides national figures, some of whom epi lists above, there are local activists as well. They may not be delivering the message that you want to hear, but they're working to better their communities.

I'm very surprised that you're not familiar with Tavis Smiley with his syndicated radio show, nor his show with Cornell West - Smiley and West.

To insist on two or three individuals as representatives of the African American community is to be deaf and blind to the variety of activism across the county -- local, state-wide, and national.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Thank you epi and nancy for continuing to educate us on so many subjects. Some of us really do want to learn and appreciate the information. So, while others will most likely ignore what you said and continue to spew the right wing talking points, some of us out here do appreciate it.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Thank you, Epi... and Nancy, respectively.

38,929,319 Americans identify as Black or African American, and they are certainly not silent.

A quick Google shows us the demographics of the US, and brings up countless names of leadership and articles pertaining to those leaders and the community at large.

From the link...

" The other day, a non-Black person asked me what I thought about the state of Black leadership in America. He then mentioned that he is confused about exactly who speaks for Black people, since he sees a new Black face on TV every other week. I think he wanted me to tell him who the key players are, and who he should look to in order to obtain “the Black perspective.”

I looked at the man, thought for a second, and then asked, “What is the state of White leadership in America? Who speaks for your people?”

The man was puzzled by my response, and looked like he wanted to slap me. But I certainly hope he got the point. The point is that there is no single individual or group of individuals who represent “the Black perspective” or anyone who has primary control over “the Black agenda.” We are as diverse as anyone, and nearly every Black American citizen is fully capable of thinking for themselves and leading their own families.

A recent survey confirms that others African-Americans feel the same way. In a recent Your Black World/Kulture Kritic survey, the majority of African-American respondents (72.3%) feel that most Americans falsely believe that Black leadership is defined primarily by Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton."

Here is a link that might be useful: Black leadership in America


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

The man was puzzled by my response, and looked like he wanted to slap me.

That is the look I imagine October had on his/her face when I asked the same question. A question October is not able or willing to answer.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

If one was to use only cable TV and talk radio as a source of information one might draw the conclusion that JJ and AS speak for the black community.

Just like Rush and Beck speak for the white conservative community and Maddow and Jon Stewart speak for the white liberal community............they do don't they?


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Precisely, Chase... there are no assigned speakers for any race of people.

Though, it would be nice if our elected representatives actually represented our needs and wants as citizens...


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Wow, mom. George Zimmerman created those injuries on the back of his own head???

What a shame. The DOJ and prosecution did not think of claiming Zimmermans injuries were self inflicted! They are probably kicking themselves. What evidence did they miss?


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

"If one was to use only cable TV and talk radio as a source of information one might draw the conclusion that JJ and AS speak for the black community.
Just like Rush and Beck speak for the white conservative community and Maddow and Jon Stewart speak for the white liberal community............they do don't they?"

You mean to say they don't?


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

jill: "A question October is not able or willing to answer."

Can you please run that question by me again. I'll answer it. Though, I probably have, you just didn't like my answer.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Not that far up-thread Jill asked, "Are you white? Who speaks for the white community? Do you think every white person on TV speaks for the white community?"

Or, as it was phrased within the written piece, "What is the state of White leadership in America? Who speaks for your people?"


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Thanks, Jodi. Amazing how they always "miss" the questions they don't want to answer.

October - see my post on Mon, Jul 29, 13 at 13:24

Really a very simple question that you haven't answered.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

""Are you white? Who speaks for the white community? Do you think every white person on TV speaks for the white community?"

Can anyone answer, or do we have to wait till October re-appears? For all we know, she's not reading.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Anyone who claims that only Al and Jesse speak for the black community can feel free to answer.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

At the link is a 6 min video interview about the white crime and drug culture.

Its pretty well done.

Here is a link that might be useful: link


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

"Really a very simple question that you haven't answered."

I think you are way out of line demanding to know what color another poster is. It doesn't matter what color anybody here is. You have no right to badger folks with questions about their race or color. Please stop.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Oh please. You are the one who needs to stop. I didn't badger anyone about their color or anything else for that matter. I asked a question which did not get answered and October asked me to repeat the question, which I did.

I suggest you read the entire post in context and not just a word or two here and there.


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

Why hasn't this thread died yet?


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

"I didn't badger anyone about their color or anything else for that matter. I asked a question which did not get answered and October asked me to repeat the question, which I did."

The question you asked was entirely inappropriate. Did you even stop to think about it? How you would like it if somebody demanded to know what color you are??? Your question was bad enough, but then you complained because you didn't get an answer. Is that the way you would want to be treated?


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

The basic question was posed in different ways... if it bothers someone to claim their racial heritage, they can answer the question in different form.

For example... "What is the state of White leadership in America?"

Or... "Who speaks for the white community? Do you think every white person on TV speaks for the white community?"


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RE: Does anybody care about these sons?

I thought Oprah spoke for everyone, but I guess she's retired. Too bad though. I always thought the Hell's Angel's spoke for the common suburban man. Born to be wild and all that while working in the office.

Been banging my head against the wall trying to figure out who speaks for me. I always liked the name Babatune Olatunji. I hope Ralph Nader approves.


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