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A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Posted by nancy_in_venice_ca SS24 z10 CA (My Page) on
Mon, Jul 15, 13 at 14:48

Typo in the title cannot be corrected.

A Straightforward Answer for MsKjun

An answer to the thread: Does anybody care about these sons?

Why aren't they marching in the streets of Chicago, New Orleans, Detroit?

This question reveals more about MsK's lack of knowledge than a lack of organizing and a lack of community activism.

From NYT Sunday Magazine: What Does It Take to Stop Crips and Bloods From Killing Each Other?

This is a long article, much more than what I've excerpted, and worth reading in total. There's truth in the saying "No Justice, No Peace." All the paramilitary policing in the world will not solve the problem of gang violence.

Cities grappling with gang violence have long feared one outcome above all others: becoming Los Angeles, and more specifically, Watts. Nowhere were police relations with the black community worse.

The way the L.A.P.D. conducted itself in South Los Angeles “wasn’t policing, it was anti-insurgency run amok,” says the journalist and historian Joe Domanick. “Sheer brutality, suppression and force -- those were the only things the L.A.P.D. thought people in South L.A. understood, and those were the only things the L.A.P.D. itself understood.” The rise of the Crips and the Bloods in the 1970s only strengthened that sentiment. Watts, with the highest concentration of public housing west of the Mississippi, the fourth-highest concentration of poverty in the city of Los Angeles and a long history of police-community conflict, presented the problem of gang violence and “black-blue” antagonism in its most extreme form.

But Watts and the Los Angeles Police Department have each undergone a remarkable transformation. Over the past two years, violent crime in Watts’s public-housing projects has fallen by more than 60 percent. Drive-by shootings, once a mainstay of gang life and the nightly news, have almost completely disappeared. [...]

In recent years, the L.A.P.D. has been conducting an unusual experiment in community policing in Watts. Its centerpiece, the Community Safety Partnership, is the department’s collaboration with a group of residents known as the Watts Gang Task Force. Every Monday morning, community leaders meet with top police commanders to discuss what’s happening in the Watts gang world -- "who’s feuding with whom, where criminal investigations stand, which are the issues residents are worried about. What makes the initiative unusual is that many of the task force’s participants have close ties to street gangs. Some, like Mendenhall, are former gang leaders. Others are the mothers and grandmothers of notorious gang leaders past and present.

When we talk about crime, we tend to talk about victims and offenders, innocence and guilt, prey and predator. Gang violence clouds and warps this logic: victims and victimizers are often the same people, and neither side has any reason to talk to the police. This presents a conundrum to law enforcement, one that has developed contrasting strategies on either coast. New York City insists that hard-nosed, divisive tactics like its stop-and-frisk policy are necessary to reduce crime. But Los Angeles has pursued another way, an approach that has delivered lower crime rates and fostered police-community reconciliation. [...]

Gang peacemakers had worked the streets of South L.A. since before the Rodney King riots. Some were volunteers; some worked for small nonprofit groups. Gang conflicts often emerged from disputes over girls, reported slights or simple misunderstandings. Gang-intervention workers would relay accurate information to gang members, resolving issues before they led to violence. That was the theory, at least. Many police officers were skeptical, perhaps because so many gang-intervention workers were themselves ex-gang members. Some hadn’t really left the gangs. But during his time at Harbor division, Gannon saw firsthand how gang interventionists could shut gang feuds down. With nothing to lose, he made some phone calls and asked for help. A week later, he found himself sitting down to talk with “30 hard-core gang guys” in a church basement in South L.A.

The first meeting was a grievance session. The second meeting, the same. At the third, Gannon finally spoke up. “We’ve had eight homicides in two weeks, four on the L.A. side, four in the city of Inglewood,” he said. “I just had a double murder the day before yesterday. I need help in stopping that. I have to stop that feud. Can you help me with this particular problem?”

Discussion ensued. The gang-intervention workers said there were people with whom they might talk. “That day it stopped,” Gannon says. “Not slowed down; it stopped.”

Gannon had tapped into something powerful, a concept academics call procedural justice.... Tyler found that people care more about how they are treated than about actual legal outcomes...Other researchers expanded Tyler’s work to other parts of the criminal-justice system. In the process, they began to examine a much older concept: legitimacy. ..while many law-enforcement agencies have come to appreciate the power of deterrence, many ignore the importance of fairness. [...]

“There is a direct link between the feeling that police are illegitimate and high levels of violence,” said David M. Kennedy, who helped design Operation Ceasefire. “When you get into the communities that are the most distressed, the feeling that the police are not legitimate goes up and violence goes up.” (In New York a recent curtailing of stop-and-frisk has, in fact, coincided with a decline in homicides.) If academic theories of legitimacy are correct, the police can encourage high-crime neighborhoods to comply with the law by making some fairly simple changes to their own behavior: by explaining police actions, by listening to people’s grievances and by demonstrating respect. In principle, it’s straightforward.

This post was edited by nancy_in_venice_ca on Mon, Jul 15, 13 at 14:50


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Cut and paste opinion and anecdotes and condescension aside, mrskjun's legitimate question remains.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

I think mrsk can speak for herself, demi. And I suggest you read the whole article before you criticize any of it.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

mrskjun's legitimate question remains.

It was a straw-man question at worst, or a question based on ignorance at best.

Plenty of people care -- just read the article for information on the dreaded community activists reducing crime in their communities.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Excuse me nancy. It's wonderful what they are doing in South LA, but how does that relate to Chicago, Detroit, Flint, New Orleans? I agree you have shown us an answer, one that says it can be done. So tell me again why we are losing an entire generation of young black men, killing one another?


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Oh so now mrskjun you can articulate what "caring" looks like? "Does anyone care about these sons?"

How do ordinary folk demonstrate that they care, mrskjun? How do you demonstrate it?


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Very good question esh..exactly what I asked!


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

but how does that relate to Chicago, Detroit, Flint, New Orleans?

Please read the article.

You'll find the answer there.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

I did read the article nancy. It tells me what is being done in South LA. It doesn't tell me what if anything is being done anywhere else.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

How do you demonstrate that you care about this issue, mrskjun? How do you expect other people to demonstrate how they care? I have asked you this in both threads so far and you don't answer.

Gee, you can evade a question like nobody else, can't you?


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

It doesn't tell me what if anything is being done anywhere else.

The results can be replicated elsewhere.

See this excerpt:

There is a direct link between the feeling that police are illegitimate and high levels of violence,” ... “When you get into the communities that are the most distressed, the feeling that the police are not legitimate goes up and violence goes up.” (In New York a recent curtailing of stop-and-frisk has, in fact, coincided with a decline in homicides.)

If you were to examine community groups in Chicago, New Orleans, and Detroit you would also find those promoting police accountability, gang intervention, and an end to youth violence. You might not know of them, but they exist. The question should be what are urban police departments doing to strengthen ties to communities within their jurisdiction, and are they making the most of assets, including grass-roots organizations, within those communities.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Why do you keep repeating my question to me esh? If I knew the answer I wouldn't have asked it.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

How do you expect other people to demonstrate how they care?

That is not YOUR question, that is my question.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

It doesn't tell me what if anything is being done anywhere else.

You were answered on your original thread. Whether you ignore it or not is your choice but there are answers there as well as Nancy's link.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

jeez...why don't you all just go back to demonizing Zimmerman. You want to attack me for asking the question...would that be because you don't have any answers either?


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

If you don't know how to recognize when someone cares then how can you say that people don't care? Cause that's what you asked - why don't people care? But yet, you don't know how to judge that people do. You can't even define how you would recognize that people DO care. And when people give you answers, you can't recognize them for answers.

You'd rather just poke and stir the pot ... "Here, look over here, no one cares, why are you paying attention to Zimmerman? Nothing to see there. Pay attention to this!"


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

I have a real problem with how the leaders in the white community just don't care about the deaths surrounding the meth epidemic in rural America. Yet I see these leaders of the white community on FOX, supporting Zimmerman, demonstrating for the cameras, putting Zimmerman on TV talking about 'self defense' and gun rights.

Hello? Maybe they should look in their own back yards, see what their own kids are doing. As if guns and meth mix? I just don't get it. Don't they care that their children are being shot over this? These meth addicts living in horrible conditions, they don't care? Like animals.

/blah blah blah blah.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

What a great program. We need that in Chicago. I'm writing the mayor today.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Chicago already has several programs working to end gang violence within the city, "Ceasefire" being only one.

A quick search brings up a multitude of links concerning programs and initiatives started in hope of putting an end to gang and youth related violence, and keeping kids in school so they can gain a decent education... which is one in only a few ways out of poverty, gang membership, drug use, a life in and out of prison, and other problems that affect the inner city population.

Here is a link that might be useful: CeaseFire Prevents Gang Violence in Chicago


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

"How do you expect other people to demonstrate how they care?"

Irrelevant. Lots of people, not only Mrsk, wonder why the ongoing slaughter of young men who look like Trayvon Martin garners so little national media attention. That question remains.

Despite your moving to yet another thread to demand she change the subject from the question she asked, to what you want to talk about, I doubt that Mrsk assumes she has a right to "expect" anything of anyone. I am sure she has no more notion of how other people "should" be "demonstrating" their concerns than you do.

Nancy provided what she called a "straightforward answer" to Mrsk's question, "does anybody care?"

But that turned out to be the usual cut and paste reading assignments where somebody else does all the work and Nancy simply copies it without providing her own thoughtful analysis, admittedly a time consuming effort. Anyway, while what somebody else wrote dealt with local responses to violence, the appalling disinterest by the national media in daily, inner city shootings and death remains unexplained. And Mrsk's question remains unanswered.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

And Mrsk's question remains unanswered.

That's because she has no idea of how it should be answered.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Posted by esh_ga z7 GA (My Page) on
Tue, Jul 16, 13 at 12:00

And Mrsk's question remains unanswered.

That's because she has no idea of how it should be answered.

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I don't get that response.

Mrskjun's question DOES remain unanswered.

And as I noted prior to Nikoleta's post with which I agree, cut and paste snippets of random anecdotes and condescension do not an answer make.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

I don't get that response.

I can't help that.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

If those criticizing would actually read the article, there are answers, and names of real people who care and are working to stop the violence.

Nik is the reason why I quote relevant portions of any article and/or study -- years ago she challenged anything I wrote that disagreed with her opinions and asked for proof. When given a link, nothing changed in her challenges for proof. By providing the actual text, anyone can see that see ignores or refuses to acknowledge information -- actual facts -- that refute her positions. Now she criticizes the actual quotes, implying that she prefers that which she initially criticized as my unfounded opinions. I will continue to show my sources.

Anyone saying that the question remains unanswered has not read the article, nor bothered to do any research on the subject of grass-roots organizations dealing with the question.

When law enforcement, in this case the LAPD, relied on those in the communities for input and advice, the situation improved -- dramatically. But this is not something that the conservatives seem interested in learning, nor the reason why -- procedural justice.

If those engaged in hand wringing about crime in large urban centers are sincere in their concern, I would expect interest in community action that yields positive results.

I was mistaken however; facts contrary to preconceived ideas are not welcome by the conservative hand wringers.

To recap my response:

1. There are people who care and are acting;
2. There is a solution to the violence that can be used in other cities -- law enforcement can involve the community and should be fair. Procedural justice.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Thank you, Nancy... I believe the questions have been answered.. certainly to my satisfaction...

I found the same to be true... that a majority of our major cities all have a variety of programs designed to take the violence out of the equation... programs that are working rather well.

Just as there is always one bad apple in the bushel, so will there always be a modicum of incidents wherever populations are dense or economics strained. It's the nature of the beast.

But that's not to say that people aren't hard at work trying to change that landscape.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

They are working well? That's certainly going to make these families feel better.

Within 47 days of Trayvon Martins death 1,018 black Americans were killed by black Americans.

Here is a link that might be useful: link


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Yes, mrskjun.

I wonder if there will be outrage on behalf of six year old Ahlittia North.

I imagine only if it turns out a white person kidnapped, murdered and threw her body in a dumpster.

If the person that murdered her was black, there will be no multiple threads about it, will there?


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Was it the other thread that had the information that 94% of blacks are killed by blacks and 86% of whites are killed by whites?

What about that white on white crime?


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

I wonder if there will be outrage on behalf of six year old Ahlittia North. I imagine only if it turns out a white person kidnapped, murdered and threw her body in a dumpster.

Stay classy, Demi, as always.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Was it the other thread that had the information that 94% of blacks are killed by blacks and 86% of whites are killed by whites?
What about that white on white crime?

I was thinking the same think Esh but didn't bother to post it. Your question will be ignored just like any stat that doesn't fit their agenda is.

Just for fun I'll post the link here too.



The Trayvon Martin Killing and the Myth of Black-on-Black Crime
by Jamelle Bouie
...
Crime is driven by proximity and opportunity, writes Jamelle Bouie��"which is why 86 percent of white victims were killed by white offenders.
...

The idea that “black-on-black” crime is the real story in Martin’s killing isn’t a novel one. In addition to Shapiro, you’ll hear the argument from conservative African-American activists like Crystal White, as well as people outside the media, like Zimmerman defense attorney Mark O’Mara, who said that his client “never would have been charged with a crime” if he were black.

(It’s worth noting, here, that Zimmerman wasn’t charged with a crime. At least, not at first. It took six weeks of protest and pressure for Sanford police to revisit the killing and bring charges against him. Indeed, in the beginning, Martin’s cause had less to do with the identity of the shooter and everything to do with the appalling disinterest of the local police department.)

But there’s a huge problem with attempt to shift the conversation: There’s no such thing as “black-on-black” crime. Yes, from 1976 to 2005, 94 percent of black victims were killed by black offenders, but that racial exclusivity was also true for white victims of violent crime��"86 percent were killed by white offenders. Indeed, for the large majority of crimes, you’ll find that victims and offenders share a racial identity, or have some prior relationship to each other.

What Shapiro and others miss about crime, in general, is that it’s driven by opportunism and proximity; If African-Americans are more likely to be robbed, or injured, or killed by other African-Americans, it’s because they tend to live in the same neighborhoods as each other. Residential statistics bear this out (PDF); blacks are still more likely to live near each other or other minority groups than they are to whites. And of course, the reverse holds as well��"whites are much more likely to live near other whites than they are to minorities and African-Americans in particular.

Nor are African-Americans especially criminal. If they were, you would still see high rates of crime among blacks, even as the nation sees a historic decline in criminal offenses. Instead, crime rates among African-Americans, and black youth in particular, have taken a sharp drop. In Washington, D.C., for example, fewer than 10 percent of black youth are in a gang, have sold drugs, have carried a gun, or have stolen more than $100 in goods.

Overall, figures from a variety of institutions��"including the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Bureau of Justice Statistics��"show that among black youth, rates of robbery and serious property offenses are at their lowest rates in 40 years, as are rates of violent crime and victimization. And while it’s true that young black men are a disproportionate share of the nation’s murder victims, it’s hard to disentangle this from the stew of hyper-segregation (often a result of deliberate policies), entrenched poverty, and nonexistent economic opportunities that characterizes a substantial number of black communities. Hence the countless inner-city anti-violence groups that focus on creating opportunity for young, disadvantaged African-Americans, through education, mentoring, and community programs. Blacks care intensely about the violence that happens in their communities. After all, they have to live with it.

“Black-on-black crime” has been part of the American lexicon for decades, but as a specific phenomenon, it’s no more real than “white-on-white crime.” Unlike the latter, however, the idea of “black-on-black crime” taps into specific fears around black masculinity and black criminality��"the same fears that, in Florida, led George Zimmerman to focus his attention on Trayvon Martin, and in New York, continue to justify Michael Bloomberg’s campaign of police harassment against young black men in New York City.

...

Here is a link that might be useful: Trayvon Martin and the Myth of Black on Black Brime


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

"Within 47 days of Trayvon Martins death 1,018 black Americans were killed by black Americans."

Not enough to get the American press or the feds worked up, though. Or the left.

When Mrsk asked "does anybody care?" she foolishly thought there was such a thing as black on black crime. Turns out that's a myth!

I would have thought 1,018 black human beings, dead at the hands of other blacks in a mere 47 days, signaled a problem every bit as worthy of attention as Trayvon Martin's death.

But black on black crime is a myth. Nothing to see here...move along now.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

nik, mrsk never said that there was no black on black crime. In fact, she is concerned that too few people care. Get your story straight.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

No Pidge, she is complaining about my link and the opinion of the writer in the piece. They explain themselves. I doubt Nik read it.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

I was mistaken however; facts contrary to preconceived ideas are not welcome by the conservative hand wringers.

That just about sums up every post on HT. Thanks, nancy.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

No demi, you missed it. Little six year old Ahlittia was raped and murdered by a neighbor. Close proximity, so no outrage there.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

facts contrary to preconceived ideas are not welcome by the conservative hand wringers

That just about sums up every post on HT

Indeed.

Where are the odj's abut Marissa Alexander? Jordan Davis? Rekia Boyd? Ramarley Graham? or the many others? We can go on and on with the senseless deaths and misjustice that is rampant not just the selective outrage we see here.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

How the heck did we get from the op to this meandering series of non sequiturs?


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Posted by mrskjun 9 (My Page) on Tue, Jul 16, 13 at 18:06
No demi, you missed it. Little six year old Ahlittia was raped and murdered by a neighbor. Close proximity, so no outrage there.

Why, thanks for chiming in, Mrskjun - another classy comment.

Lovely people, aren't they? Struttin' their class act all over the forum, trash talking some community that just lost a child.

This post was edited by david52 on Tue, Jul 16, 13 at 19:07


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Nik: (sarcasm): "But black on black crime is a myth. Nothing to see here...move along now."

The race-obsessed on this forum are interested in crimes perpetrated by whites against non-whites.

"Psychologists define white guilt as the dejection or compunction that Whites feel when they witness a discriminatory act or observe the consequences of a racist act (Steele, 1990). White guilt manifests itself in common settings and every day interpersonal encounters. Feelings of white guilt may arise from the simplest realizations of white privilege to the complicated cognitive processes required by jurors as fact-finders in a civil or criminal trial."

http://www.thejuryexpert.com/2010/07/the-convoluted-spectrum-of-white-guilt-reactions-a-review-of-emerging-literature/

"George F. Will, a conservative American political columnist, wrote: "[White guilt is] a form of self-congratulation, where whites initiate "compassionate policies" toward people of color, to showcase their innocence to racism.[6]"

On the other hand, ""Not much annoys me more than the stereotype that to be liberal is to be full of guilt. To be socially liberal, in my view, is to be more mindful of compassion and empathy for others."

So glom onto whatever suits your self image.

Here is a link that might be useful: White Guilt


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Posted by david52 z5CO (My Page) on
Tue, Jul 16, 13 at 15:30

I wonder if there will be outrage on behalf of six year old Ahlittia North. I imagine only if it turns out a white person kidnapped, murdered and threw her body in a dumpster.

Stay classy, Demi, as always.

Posted by david52 z5CO (My Page) on
Tue, Jul 16, 13 at 19:05

Posted by mrskjun 9 (My Page) on Tue, Jul 16, 13 at 18:06
No demi, you missed it. Little six year old Ahlittia was raped and murdered by a neighbor. Close proximity, so no outrage there.

Love watching the middle aged southern white woman 'community' in action. Lovely people, aren't they? Struttin' their class act all over the forum, trash talking some community that just lost a child.

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What's your problem, David?

Why the insults and "class" comments?

No one "trash talked" a community.

I'm not allowed to refer to the death of a little girl?
Cold hard facts are a little inconvenient?

Mrskjun, I haven't checked the status since earlier today, thanks for letting me know that the killer of of this little girl has been identified.

This post was edited by demifloyd on Tue, Jul 16, 13 at 20:40


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

"Cold hard facts are a little inconvenient?"

What would those fact be?

See, I wouldn't even dream of mocking or in anyway diminish the murder of a child, the circumstances around it, or the "community" from whence that child came from. I would never dream of mocking or somehow trying to diminishing the incredible pain their families feel, their neighbor's feel, and their community feels.

But that doesn't stop you. Cheap shots over the presence or lack of some supposed 'outrage' that you so freely mock. I find it disgusting.

But you carry on, Eh?


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

This thread and several others make me so very sad.....

What I thought of America, so very fondly thought of America ,is slipping away. I am now seeing a very divisive, fractured society that is loosing it's cohesiveness....

Becoming very polarized around socio, racial, economic issues . This does not bode well for a country...trust me you are not above the type of disruption that has been seen in Egypt....etc

Not now , not even in the next few years, but your country is loosing the greatness it had...the internal greatness of a great people who were together in their endeavors...

Just so sad to see a great country gut itself.....


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Posted by david52 z5CO (My Page) on
Tue, Jul 16, 13 at 22:46

"Cold hard facts are a little inconvenient?"

What would those fact be?

See, I wouldn't even dream of mocking or in anyway diminish the murder of a child, the circumstances around it, or the "community" from whence that child came from. I would never dream of mocking or somehow trying to diminishing the incredible pain their families feel, their neighbor's feel, and their community feels.

But that doesn't stop you. Cheap shots over the presence or lack of some supposed 'outrage' that you so freely mock. I find it disgusting.


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I did not mock anyone.

I have nothing but compassion for the soul of that child and anyone that loved and cared for her, and the community that suffers the loss of that innocent child.

To accuse me of what you did--falsely--is what is disgusting, David.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun


Chase, I ,agree with this and with your sentiments in the other thread as well..that this place has grown toxic. We have seen so many intelligent posters stop posting or hardly post anymore because of this and sadly have not been replaced with any that are as articulate or thoughtful, on the contrary.

This is the very reason a wonderful organization, Intelligence Squared, was started up here in the US (it originated in the UK). the founder, Rosenkranz, was tired of going to dinner parties and watching conversations disintegrate into similar to what we see here.

I admit to my part of adding to it in the past and will no longer. even when posts and threads are started for the sole purpose of baiting me as was done recently, falsely accusing me of nonsense that simply wasn't true except in the mind of the poster and those who supported him. What the op apparently never realized is that I have been scrolling on by his posts for a very long time, even when he was posting under another name. The list has grown which makes me realize that the reasonI am on here to learn and discuss simply is no longer possible except for a few.

The other thread I referenced in my first paragraph is another thread started solely to provoke. I don't want to continue to be part of the problem and don't want to be part of discussions where links are titled "ignorant" or discussions about Paula Deen or voters who are mentally handicapped are turned political when there was nothing political about them, but there are things worthy of discussion. It is always the same thing and usually the same posters. They are also the most vocal about being misunderstood and demanding respect yet they are guilty of doing exactly what they profess to hate. Sadly this is what this board and we have become.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Chase , you are so right about the hateful divide in this country. This is nothing like the country I grew up in. You think HT is bad. Read the comment section on any news site like CNN or NBC. I'm sure Fox is worse, but it's mostly right wing filth in the comment section and the terrible things said by the wingnuts over a benign topic such as ...it's Malia Obama's 15 th birthday. The most disgusting words I have ever heard are said over any topic. Makes me sad just reading them.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

David, your words are a wake-up call. Thank you. I have always had great respect for you and your comments because you never sink to insults or say anything derogatory about others.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

So he made a exception this time pidge? Both insulting and derogatory. A heinous crime was committed in New Orleans over this past weekend. Black on black. Where was Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson? Where was Eric Holder. Where was Obama to say this baby might have been his.

No, what will happen. This man will be charged and tried by the justice system. He will be found guilty or not guilty. His trial will not be used to further divide this country.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

I'll just put a question or two out there that I am sure will raise the hackles on a few posters.

Just what is the average person able to do to help the situation beyond paying more and more in taxes that don't seem to do any good at all, when we don't live in those communities? What exactly are you personally doing?

Over the years I have read about study after study and project after project. Most are just holes in the ground that swallow up the funds allotted to them and dry up after the funds dry up. If even a tiny portion of the people /communities the programs are supposed to help actually had a lasting benefit that might be worthwhile, but that doesn't seem to happen very often. The more help that is given simply results in resentment and even hostility against those trying to help. I honestly have begun to think that unless the community itself does not initiate, run and, at least substantially, fund a program it will not succeed long term because the people/community are not invested in it. They have no reason to be.

That includes reducing gangs, drugs, murders, and anything else you can think of. Our feelings about those dead children really don't matter.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

That was a very touching post chase.

It was so genuine ... I could feel your fondness for the US, just the same way I feel for Canada (Mexico too, but their issues are more ongoing and way more overt imo).

Gotta have friends that can be honest with you.

It makes me sad to hear someone from somewhere else who sincerely does love our country say it, but thanks, because I know you had to.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

mrsk, I was paying David a compliment and by "wake-up call" I meant that I hope I could emulate his general demeanor. He does not insult or denigrate anyone ever, but he is also not a doormat. Taking offense at a poster's insensitivity strikes me as a correct response.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Aptly put, Chase, and I agree... this nation is not above following others into the dismal abyss caused by economic, social, and other divides... I agree, this is not now the same country I grew up in, to be sure.

At influential urging, the screeching of fanatics has grown to an ugly din, as purposeful disparity pushes idealism into opposite directions.

Soon... perhaps not in my lifetime, but soon... America will fall victim to the same scourges that other nations have faced, or are facing even now.

There's still time to turn much of it around, but that will not happen. It would require a softening that I can't see happening... not with the firm dividers in place that have been dropped, and not with such ugliness still being fed.

This forum is mild in comparison to the attitudes shown elsewhere... but it still does carry the typical kind of framework every public internet/media venue carries... a roll of expected patterns... though more mediated.

It is sad to stop and think about the struggles this nation endured, and the hurdles overcome, to bring us to a place we might say was enlightened... and for a while, it seemed as though we were making progress. But if this is even close to an accurate crosscut of America... we're treading very deep shark infested waters...


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

A heinous crime was committed in New Orleans over this past weekend. Black on black. Where was Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson? Where was Eric Holder. Where was Obama to say this baby might have been his.

And these are the questions you ask. The humanity, empathy, compassion towards those who lost their child just shines right through.

And where is Nancy Grace? Where is the national news coverage - ABC, NBC, CBS? Where is Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, and the other leaders of white outrage? They were there to trash Trayvon Martin and extoll Zimmerman - why not here?


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Nancy Grace the racist? “Give Zimmerman back his life? He’s out on bond driving through Taco Bell every night, having a churro.”

NBC who not only doctored the 911 tapes, but also photoshopped the pictures of Zimmerman>

Think they'll do a good job of caring?


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

You are right, David. As if only African Americans should express outrage or concern over this while Rush and a Fox interviewer can permit a killer to call a killing "God's plan" and express no regret over the killing. I am weary of the insensitivity shown by too many people. It certainly doesn't show the "caring" that is supposed to be happening.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Mrs. K "No demi, you missed it. Little six year old Ahlittia was raped and murdered by a neighbor. Close proximity, so no outrage there."

Demi "Mrskjun, I haven't checked the status since earlier today, thanks for letting me know that the killer of of this little girl has been identified."

Actually, the NEPHEW of North's STEPFATHER is a SUSPECT, the killer has not been "identified" and it's not a "neighbor" in the sense that people are usually neighbors, but knowing the victim's family intimately and being close to her in location were probably the two major motivations. She also had "no obvious signs during an autopsy of sexual assault".

I shouldn't be shocked, I've watched the twists of information for years, but this is an absolutely incredible example of listening to incorrect information and then accepting it as blind truth if given by a source one trusts while blatantly ignoring the rest of the thread.

Since most sexual crimes and crimes against children are done by family members and friends, the "close proximity" theory stands logical. It has nothing to do with her being black and everything to do with having a person in the family who did the wrong thing (to a child who was convenient to him).


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Finish it silversword...a warrant for the arrest of 20 yr. old Matthew Flugence was issued for first degree murder of Alitthia North. Sexual assault was suspected. In an unrelated incident, Flugence has an outstanding warrant against him for an alleged sexual assault of an 11-year-old girl.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Oh, so he was "allegedly" a sex offender before so he must have "raped" this little girl?

You know this? Where are your sources? And what's your point? You spread misinformation, admit it.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

I watched the sheriffs news conference yesterday silversword...did you? And you are proving my point. You are less upset over the murder of this child than the fact that I posted the facts as the sheriff laid them out. And it is preferable to you that you can make allegations against me .


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

You don't come across as concerned at all, mrsk, only eager to score points against other posters. What kinds of solutions against such tragedies do you think could alter situations like them?


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

I've answered that enough times pidge. I'm done with these threads, I really meant it when I told labrea that he is much smarter than I. Maybe this is a discussion that can be had after the media is through whipping everyone into a frenzy over the Zimmerman trial.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

No, Mrs. K, I didn't. I have a small female child. I don't watch stuff like that. But the fact that you did and still made the comments above shows your listening/reading comprehension level far better than I could.

How dare you make an assumption of how upset I am and then judge me based on that erroneous assumption.

I'm not making allegations, I'm pointing out that you had misinformation, spread it, and Demi was all too quick to snatch it up as truth.

I sensed glee in your tone when you snarked that there's "no outrage"...

This goes hand in hand with the other post. If you don't know what's going on in another person's life, don't make cruel judgements on them.

Have you ever lost a child to kidnapping and rape Mrs. K? Have you ever been kidnapped and/or raped? Have you ever sat with a mother whose child has been kidnapped and raped and murdered? How about an adult family member? Ever had one of them go missing and search for them?

I've experienced most of that. I don't need to gleefully announce that others are not reacting appropriately. I've seen/experienced enough to know there is no "right" way to mourn a child.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

I mourn a child silversword, his killer still walks free...so don't you dare preach to me. You have no idea what my motives are. You wanted nothing more than to disagree with me. Ok, you did, let's drop it before one of us gets banned.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

I am very sorry to hear that Mrs., because I know there is no escape from the pain. You have my utter sympathy for the loss of your child. I am truly sorry.

However, having experienced that firsthand I would expect you to understand clearly there is no "right" way to show how you feel about a child being harmed and not make comments that I'm not responding in a way that you find appropriate, or twist the facts.

I do have no idea what your motives are, it's true, but I will tell you what my motives were, and it's not to disagree with you. I've been down that rabbit hole

My motive in pointing out your fallacies presented as truth and Demi's unquestioning acceptance of those falsehoods was how easy and common it is to believe those who we believe are on "our side" and accept their words as fact without doing due process on our own.

I had actually never heard of that poor little girl. I googled her, and then discovered your misinformation on the first sites on which I landed.

It's lazy, and you of all people, having gone through what you have, would know the pain it causes when strangers spread misinformation about your deceased loved one. You used that little girl to make your point and you didn't fact-check before doing it. It's not pretty.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

"Photoshopped pictures of Zimmerman, MrsK? What about people here on HT who posted a picture of a gangsta looking black man claiming it was Trayvon when it wasn't and was a man in his 30's?

Look at the picture of the dead Trayvon uncovered, and you will see a normal looking kid in khakis and sneakers. I saw it here on HT but forget which thread.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Posted by lily316 z5PA (My Page) on
Wed, Jul 17, 13 at 13:46

"Photoshopped pictures of Zimmerman, MrsK? What about people here on HT who posted a picture of a gangsta looking black man claiming it was Trayvon when it wasn't and was a man in his 30's?

*

So we're even.

Silversword, I don't know why you are bringing me into the conversation. The only thing I said about what mrskjun said was acknowledgement that the killer had been found.

I suppose that remains to be formally determined, but that's all I said--mrskjun was correct in that an arrest had been made AFTER I posted about the little girl being murdered.

And now that we know a black man is accused of murdering this little child and tossing her in a dumpster, we can now go back to the important business of trashing George Zimmerman and calling him a racist.

Again--more posts about me and mrskjun and not about the topic. It's like a duck on a junebug around here, what desperation.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Again--more posts about me and mrskjun and not about the topic. It's like a duck on a junebug around here, what desperation.

So let's get this straight...what you like is carte blanche to say anything you'd like without getting called out for false statements. Am I characterizing that correctly? If anyone corrects you or disagrees that is the equivalent of an attack. Right?


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Posted by jerzeegirl 9 (My Page) on
Wed, Jul 17, 13 at 18:06

Again--more posts about me and mrskjun and not about the topic. It's like a duck on a junebug around here, what desperation.

So let's get this straight...what you like is carte blanche to say anything you'd like without getting called out for false statements. Am I characterizing that correctly? If anyone corrects you or disagrees that is the equivalent of an attack. Right?

*

No, that is not correct at all.

If I am wrong in facts (as in the posting of the photo) by all means tell me.

If you disagree with my opinion, by all means do so, or ask for clarification if you're not sure exactly what I mean.

Just don't insult me, denigrate me and lie about me and mischaracterize my stance, and most of all, do not assume motivations and then post what you think are my motivations for the opinions I have.

It's really quite simple--it's at the top of the page on the forum rules.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Just don't insult me, denigrate me and lie about me and mischaracterize my stance, and most of all, do not assume motivations and then post what you think are my motivations for the opinions I have.

So we should do as you say, not as you do, Perhaps you should follow your own rules. You don't.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Posted by epiphyticlvr 10 (My Page) on
Wed, Jul 17, 13 at 18:38

Just don't insult me, denigrate me and lie about me and mischaracterize my stance, and most of all, do not assume motivations and then post what you think are my motivations for the opinions I have.

So we should do as you say, not as you do, Perhaps you should follow your own rules. You don't


*

That's not true at all.

But I didn't expect a chance to trash me would get by you.

I don't think you can not post about me or post to me.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

I think epi hates us demi. Maybe a few more, I don't know. But epi, I swear to you that both demi and I are very nice people. My family and friends and even my animals love me. And demi is just as nice as can be. We simply differ in our political opinions. I know the fact that I love to see a starving child sitting on the side of the road is a bit offensive to you, but you know, I'm going to send Granny out there to sit with him.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

But I didn't expect a chance to trash me would get by you.

I don't think you can not post about me or post to me.

I think epi hates us demi.

Ok, I'll respond to the tag team.

Another fallacy.It seems it is the other way around. I don't respond many times including recently when you jumped on the bandwagon when another poster tried to bait me with posts and then a thread based on a false assumption. I believed you jumped right in even though it had nothing to do with you as you have done many times before. If you go back and look I didn't respond to any of you so it seems you may have it backwards.

There are many other threads which are easily found where I don't respond to your posts so you are giving yourself too much credit and imporance. This is just another example your exaggerating the truth to try to support your bogus claims and once again, feign victim.

Again I will repeat your own post: Just don't insult me, denigrate me and lie about me and mischaracterize my stance, and most of all, do not assume motivations and then post what you think are my motivations for the opinions I have. Again, if you want others to follow your rules then you should do so yourself.

Same for your Mrsk. Perhaps it is just your projection but in reality I don't know you or care enough to "hate" you. That is in your own head, not mine. How your family or friends feel has no bearing on anything. My responses are simply to what you post on here, nothing more.

This post was edited by epiphyticlvr on Wed, Jul 17, 13 at 20:19


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Told ya.

:)


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Pathetic, Some people get old but never mature.

Carry on with your baiting and playing with yourself.

This post was edited by epiphyticlvr on Wed, Jul 17, 13 at 23:58


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Epi to Demi at 23:49: "Some people get old but never mature. Carry on playing with yourself."

Hot Topics rules:

"...You may challenge another's point of view or opinion, but do so respectfully and thoughtfully, without insult and personal attack."

You know the rest. I don't think anyone takes Epi seriously, or they would object to this liine of behavior. That's good.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Yeah. No one takes Epi seriously.............. Sarcasm?


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

I always take epi seriously--I know intlliegence and logic when I see it.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

I love all of you even when you pick on me...


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Don't take epi seriously? Really? I think perhaps you were thinking of yourself when you typed that.

I enjoy epi's intelligent and fact filled posts. Unlike so many others here.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Wed, Jul 17, 13 at 23:49

Pathetic, Some people get old but never mature.

Carry on with your baiting and playing with yourself.

*

Oh, I wondered when someone with nothing to contribute but slamming other posters would type those words.

Most people are too careful to post that last sentence.

Not Epi.

This post was edited by demifloyd on Thu, Jul 18, 13 at 9:28


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Absolutely bizarre.

A statement was made (perhaps in error) and stated as fact by Poster 1.

Poster 2 thanks Poster 1 for statement made (taking it as truth without doing due diligence and aiding in spreading falsehoods).

Poster 3 posts truth, asks Poster 1 to retract false statement.

Poster 1 apparently is incapable of saying "oops, I was wrong"

All heck breaks loose.

Apparently it's really difficult to:

A) do one's own research
B) admit when one makes a mistake
C) admit that taking the word of a person on a message board without fact checking is follower mentality.
D) realize that lying/misstating/twisting the truth to make a point is bizarre.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Thanks Pidge and Jill, I appreciate your words.

Sadly it seems there may be some real issues here at play based on this continued behavior, Older women usualy do not act like this by baiting posters and playing childish games and displaying outlandish behavior and then feigning innocence. It is bizarre. This has nothing to do with reality or me. In a nutshell. the need for attention by some and the lengths they will go to get it is just sad. .


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Nancy, I was really interested in the OP statement regarding the correlation between police force and gang violence. It makes sense that increasing communication will foster goodwill, especially when we consider that a lot of gang members are young people who probably don't have very many conflict resolution skills. The fact that violence was avoided through intermediaries (mediators, if you will) traveling between two groups and smoothing feathers gives me hope for the future.

And again to the OP, I wonder if a person can demonstrate their "caring" by posting a thread about it on a message board, or if lack of discussion of one topic means they simply don't care, in which case we're all tragically uncaring about most of what is going on in this world.

I care about Chicago, the blight (remember the photo journalist who took all those pictures of the beautiful buildings going to dust?), the poverty, the implications of what it means for the rest of the nation... but I can only put my efforts into so many pots. And having never been to Chicago, having no family there, and having to continue my life here...

That being said, I don't march. So for me, asking why strangers are not marching is an exercise in futility. I can't even explain to you why people in my family do things, and I KNOW them :)


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

This the false statement I made silversword?

When asked about Ahlittia during questioning, Russell Flugence said, "I don't give a f--- about that little girl," according to Normand. When news reporters asked Matthew Flugence, as he walked into the Jefferson Parish Correctional facility in Gretna, whether he killed Ahlittia, Normand said he told them, "And f---ed your mother, too."

Matthew Flugence was booked at the Jefferson Parish Correctional Center in Gretna with first-degree murder and sexual battery. He was still being held Wednesday morning without bond. Bond for Russell Flugence was set at $250,000.

Here is a link that might be useful: link


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Yes, Mrskjun, you are spreading FALSE INFORMATION.

You said:

Posted by mrskjun 9 (My Page) on
Tue, Jul 16, 13 at 18:06

"No demi, you missed it. Little six year old Ahlittia was raped and murdered by a neighbor. Close proximity, so no outrage there."

FROM YOUR SOURCE:

"There were no immediate signs of sexual abuse, according to the coroner. Normand would not answer any questions about whether the child had been sexually assaulted."

Regardless of the accused murderer's comments (which are horrific to say the least) you stated OPINION as FACT.

************

Demi, you're right and I owe you an apology. After re-reading, you were thanking Mrs for saying the killer had been found, not that the victim had been raped.

Did you though, in all honesty, believe Mrs. when she said the victim had been raped, or did you notice?


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

silversword as nasty as you have been about this I will still admit that I was wrong. When the sheriff said he was wanted for sexual assault and murder, I made the assumption that he was speaking of the same incident. He wasn't. The sexual assault was in connection with an 11 year old girl and the determination will be made on the 6 year old at time of autopsy. This was not the written word, but a live news conference. Not rechecking the facts was my failing.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Thank you, mrsk, for this post.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

two steps forward, one step back

deny deny deny
post a link that you haven't read to point me out as wrong again, then call names.

It's been fun.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Be clear on one thing silversword. There are two things you will never see me do. I won't ever call you a liar, or a name. You can dislike, and disagree with me as much as you choose. But you can search the forum over and never find either of those things.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

"silversword as nasty as you have been "

Not sure how this is any different than calling someone a name....


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

silversword as nasty as you have been about this I will still admit that I was wrong (emphasis added by me)

While I appreciate admitting you were wrong, what does someone else being nasty or not have to do with admitting you were wrong? When you're wrong, you're wrong. Just because you believe someone was mean to you doesn't mean it's ok to not admit you were wrong when you were.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Jodi: "Chicago already has several programs working to end gang violence within the city, "Ceasefire" being only one."

Oh yea. They are really looking into Ceasefire now that the program head got booked for beating up his wife. Some financial improprieties have surfaced now. Surprise! The program is not working.

I buy into save the baby whales and baby seals, but not the baby mamas. As you know, I believe they are THE source of all these gangs and murderers. No more rewards for plopping out babies. That is the solution.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

silversword,I was so taken that mrsk would say she was wrong about anything, I let slide that she called you nasty. I apologize for that.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Someone I know who is addressing the question of the OP......................

Here is a link that might be useful: Non Violent Communication


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

pidge, you also missed that I did not call her nasty...as I said above, I never call people names or liars. I said she had been nasty in her postings. Spin it any way you want. I said I was mistaken and you can continue to beat the horse but it's dead.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Worth a look, when looking for answers.

Here is a link that might be useful: nonvioent communication....one answer among many


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

I said she had been nasty in her postings.

You did label SS as nasty.

There is a difference between saying certain comments are nasty, and saying that someone is nasty when making certain comments. You did the later. If you meant to opine on the comments and not the person, maybe it would worth your while to study the differences between the two statements.

This is part of a common simple exercise to communicate what you feel about a situation -- I felt the comments were nasty -- instead of projecting your feelings onto the other person. I'm sure you must have encountered this before as it's frequently taught as an effective communication skill.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

I did not call her nasty...I said she had been nasty in her postings.

What if someone said: "MrsK was lying in her post"

Would you claim that person called you a liar?


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

mrsk, as others have noted, telling silversword that "as nasty as you have been about this" hardly comes across as anything but name-calling. But think what you want about your own virtue, this exchange does not make you look good.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

An update on that Ceasefire leader... in case anyone missed it...

Here is a link that might be useful: CeaseFire Director’s Wife Drops Domestic Violence Charges


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Oh, here we go.

More posts about mrskjun, denigrating her.

What sport.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Gee, you guys worked so hard at that too. Silversword, if you do take that as my calling you a name, I sincerely apologize. As I've said before, I never call people names or liars, and if you took it that way, let me assure you I was only describing the tenor of your postings and never was referring to you personally.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

MsKjun, thank you for the apology to silversword.





Gee, you guys worked so hard at that too.

No, it's quite easy to see the glaring disconnect.


Corrected Demi: More posts about mrskjun's comments.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Posted by nancy_in_venice_ca SS24 z10 CA (My Page) on
Fri, Jul 19, 13 at 11:04

Corrected Demi: More posts about mrskjun's comments.

*

No, corrected Nancy.

Below are Pidge's comments--they are denigrating mrskjun, personally, not posting about her posts.

Posted by pidge z6PA (My Page) on
Fri, Jul 19, 13 at 8:58

"But think what you want about your own virtue, this exchange does not make you look good."


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cut and paste

"Just don't insult me, denigrate me and lie about me and mischaracterize my stance, and most of all, do not assume motivations and then post what you think are my motivations for the opinions I have."

Let's all try that and see what happens!

"Nik is the reason why I quote relevant portions of any article and/or study -- years ago she challenged anything I wrote that disagreed with her opinions and asked for proof."

Not quite, Nancy. The "optional URL" feature has been here as long as I have. With that feature, nobody is forced to "quote relevant portions" of anything, as you claim. The complete source is but a click away, thanks to gardenweb's user friendly format.

When you come here and rely primarily upon works written by others, that is a choice you make. Please don't insult my intelligence by claiming that because you were once asked for a source, you are now forced to cut and paste article after article of what others WORKED to produce, while contributing little original thinking of your own.

Everybody else here manages to write their own stuff, even as they post links and "relevant portions" of what others have written.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Water off a ducks back Mrsk. You and I have danced around the bush of non-admittance before, I knew what I was getting into.

I believe that you believe what you say. I accept your apology, although it's a bit backhanded. Saying "I'm sorry if I hurt you" is very different than saying "I'm sorry if you took it that way".

Nancy, again you have a good point about effective communication. "I feel you" is so much more powerful and honest than "You make me". It makes a person responsible for their own feelings rather than putting it on another person.

"you make me feel _____ when you...."

compared to

"when you _______, I feel..."

It's the twists in communication that really get me.

"You are less upset over the murder of this child than the fact that I posted the facts as the sheriff laid them out. And it is preferable to you that you can make allegations against me .

"When the sheriff said he was wanted for sexual assault and murder, I made the assumption that he was speaking of the same incident. He wasn't."

Rather than ask me how I felt, you also made the assumption that somehow you can gauge my upset over the murder of a child I only just heard about AND that I'd rather make you wrong than feel badly about this little girl.

First, I don't want to make you wrong, I wanted you to acknowledge that you sensationalized (and by doing so, re-victimized) the already tragic enough murder of a little girl by claiming she was raped. You didn't want to look at the link I provided, and continued to follow your fallacy all the way through posting a link that reiterated NO SEXUAL ASSULT is suspected at this time (who knows, you may get your rape reveal later, it makes me sick to think of it) and yet you still stood by your claim that I was wrong and just trying to make you wrong by standing firm in the truth.

For crying out loud, unless you are family this little girl is no more tragic or less tragic than any other murdered child and if I were to outwardly mourn every murdered child I'd be a sniveling heap in the closet.

It's a false argument. IF I call you out on your erroneous assumption THEN I must be a cold hearted nasty person.

MrsK, you posted "Just don't insult me, denigrate me and lie about me and mischaracterize my stance, and most of all, do not assume motivations and then post what you think are my motivations for the opinions I have."


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

"MrsK, you posted "Just don't insult me, denigrate me and lie about me and mischaracterize my stance, and most of all, do not assume motivations and then post what you think are my motivations for the opinions I have."
"

umm no I didn't, and since I've apologized twice, you can continue this dance by yourself.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

but...but...but....

LOL. Nevermind....


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Actually it was Demi that said that not Mrs.....


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

I'm sorry, I'm obviously confused.

Carry on...


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Well in your defense it is often difficult to tell the difference ;)


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

With that feature, nobody is forced to "quote relevant portions" of anything, as you claim. The complete source is but a click away, thanks to gardenweb's user friendly format.

Nik, you're doing your selective reading again.

I quote relevant portions because you have the habit of ignoring any links that I provide and continue the discussion as if the link were not present. As I previously wrote, quoting the actual text provides a contrast between your assertions and source documents for you -- and others -- to see.

I stand by my record for dealing in straightforward cites and arguments. No one requires that you read them, and you don't anyway, so I don't know what the problem is other than trying to discredit someone who challenges your links to WND and other sites known to present less than factual material.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

I agree that has become necessary to actually embed some content of the text contained in a link into my actual posts.

If you don't there are some who simply carry on as if you hadn't
posted any relevant information. It is particularly important when information is being deliberately distorted and when attached links are lengthy.......both of which happen all to often.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

I concur Chase, thank you.

I could have read more carefully, however; and I'm not proud of the slip.

Is lack of reading comprehension contagious?


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

No Silver, it's not ..you're safe.

However one can only hope admitting you are wrong may become contagious......


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

I'm reading a really great book called "Shift Happens". I think it's in the second or third chapter where he says the willingness to admit personal wrongs is a dissolution of the ego. Another way to combat rampant ego is laughter. The ability to laugh at oneself and say I was wrong makes the "I was right" (monster/ego) dissolve.

I practice. And practice. And practice.

For me, admitting I'm wrong is actually a kind of relief. I can feel myself getting wrapped up in my "rightness" and it's not a very comfortable place to live!

'...but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now..."


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

"I quote relevant portions because you have the habit of ignoring any links that I provide and continue the discussion as if the link were not present."

Yep. I spend about as much time on your copy and paste productions as you do.

"As I previously wrote, quoting the actual text provides a contrast between your assertions and source documents for you -- and others -- to see."

Nope. You didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen. Somebody else invested in those words and ideas.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

At least Nancy is very open and honest about where she gets the information to support her positions.

Rather that than taking the talking points from unknown sources and inferring it is ones own unique thoughts.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Nik, the issue is whether or not someone's assertions - in this case yours - are supported by facts.

When I have paraphrased an answer in the past, your first response is something along the lines of 'sez you' or 'there's no evidence of that' or 'some people will believe anything' -- hence the quotes. I'm not claiming authorship, just responding to your dismissals that I'm a bird brain (apologies to bird brains everywhere) for having the opinions that I do.

As usual you are distorting previous comments -- which goes to prove that I do need to provide original text. Thank you for cooperating in providing a perfect example of why I do what I do!


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Spot on Chase.

Nancy you always provide thoughtful, intelligent comments substantiated with links for those who insist on having a link who otherwise don't take posts seriously. We all know who those posters are.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Geez, I take a couple months vacation and when I return, what do I find? Same ol' stuff--maybe the same thread I was reading before but just re-cycled under a new name?

Well, hello, everybody, anyway. : ) Maybe I'll drop in occasionally again.

You take care.

Kate


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Sounds like a very good and interesting book, Silver... one that probably should be required reading within our education system!

I can recall my Mom telling me that learning to apologize could save a marriage, in that there would be times where it would be much more prudent to simply admit fault, even if something wasn't your fault, and say you were sorry, if only to avoid escalation of an argument.

I've never forgotten that bit of advice, and I've even used it a time or two to avoid conflict over what are, in reality, silly arguments over silly things. It's such an easy and inconsequential thing to do, and it smooths feathers.

I think the ability to laugh at one's self is important, and comes with having self worth, or self esteem... I find it easy to laugh at myself, and do so often. It sure beats feeling all butt-hurt because someone finds cause to laugh at my mistakes or clumsiness! I wasn't named Grace for a very good reason! :-)

I have the unique ability to fall UP stairs, and INTO cars... something that most people would do in reverse! So I laugh at myself... I couldn't imagine being insecure to the point that everything bothered or offended me!

Welcome back, Kate! I'd like to say that you missed a lot, but you really haven't... same stuff, just more piles! Watch where you step! ;-)



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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

That made me laugh, Jodi--I am such a klutz that I'd better laugh at myself. I even fell UP the stairs when I recently broke my ankle and missed a step.

And I am also glad to see you back, Kate. Hope you stick around for at least a little while.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Can I just check and see if I have this correct...

Nik is critcizing Nancy for posting facts.

Well, that sure does explain a lot, now doesn't it?


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Facts are pesky; they get in the way. LOL


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Pidge, i'm constantly tripping over my own feet... and I have small feet! Go figure!

I've tripped over grass, rug edges, things that lie relatively flat to the ground! For me, some things are more like large hurdles! ;-)

My husband worries I'll fall and bust my butt, or break a hip, or something! Luckily, I have a decent amount of padding on the rear end!

I do hope your ankle is healing well... we can laugh at our clumsiness, but at the same time, it's never fun to actually deal with an injury.

Facts? Facts are like annoying little gnats to some, Duluth, buzzing around, getting in the way of talking points and agendas... you know how it is. ;-)


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

"This question reveals more about MsK's lack of knowledge than a lack of organizing and a lack of community activism."

Today's community activism: collect govt money for your program and then point the finger outside the community. There, all done.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Today's community activism: collect govt money for your program and then point the finger outside the community.

Thank you for proving that you haven't read the article.

If you have indeed read the article, I don't understand the logic of your comments 1) because that's not what was being discussed, 2) there are positive results.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Thank you for proving that you haven't read the article.

And proving they know nothing realistic of what goes on in most organizations or community activism just shooting from the hip as usual but nothing fact based.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Epi: "...And proving they know nothing realistic of what goes on in most organizations or community activism just shooting from the hip as usual but nothing fact based."

"they". (sigh)


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

I did read the article. I have worked with victims of domestic violence. Dropping charges does not mean it didn't happen. His wife said she dropped the charges because she loves him, not because he didn't punch and kick her. He did punch and kick her.

Who can have any respect for this man? How can anyone accept him as a leader of any anti-violence program?


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

"At least Nancy is very open and honest about where she gets the information to support her positions."

Copying work someone else produced is not "supporting" one's position.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Copying work someone else produced is not "supporting" one's position.

What universe do you live in? It's the basis of research and scholarship.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

Copying work someone else produced is not "supporting" one's position.

So footnotes and quotes in any article are just so much noise and distraction... only in Nik-o-landia.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

I'm confused.

How is what you posted in your OP on the EBT thread different than that which seems to bother you about Nancy's posts ?


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

that which seems to bother you about Nancy's posts

That which bothers Nik about my posts is my opinions -- supporting by realty-based sources and not by WND, Breitbart, the Blaze, or the NY Post. Shame on me for offering information that exposes WND, Breitbart, etc as partisan sources resorting to distortion, speculation, and innuendo to make political points.


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RE: A Straightforward Answer for MrKjun

My laugh for the day...

In all seriousness, thank you, Nancy, for continuing to provide vetted information to support various positions, and including your own opinions.

I think that's why we're all here, isn't it? To discuss various issues based upon the information we can locate about them, including the opinions we form based upon those sources and the information they contain.

Of course, it's most helpful when the sources provided by other posters contain facts, and do not require debunking.

"It's the basis of research and scholarship."

Most indubitably.


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