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Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Posted by nikoleta (My Page) on
Thu, Aug 23, 12 at 11:03

A Wisconsin atheist group wants to put an end to a local tradition in a Georgia school. Ridgeland High School football coach Mark Mariakis is under fire from the Freedom From Religion Foundation. The group believes public high-school students should not be taken to area churches to eat pre-game meals prepared by the churches.


FTA: "They are demanding the school system launch an investigation into allegations that Coach Mariakis allowed local churches to prepare pre-game meals for his football team. They also allege that the coach prayed with his team, used Bible verses in motivational speeches and on team shirts and participated in the Fellowship of Christian Athletes.

“Taking public school football teams to church, even for a meal, is unconstitutional,” wrote FFRF attorney Andrew Seidel. “This program is an egregious violation of the Establishment Clause and must cease immediately.”

Seidel said taking school children to churches and having ministers “present the Gospel of Jesus Christ” and having the food blessed “shatters the protections the First Amendment put in place.”"

Is this an "egregious violation of the Establishment Clause" as the group claims? I can see where some people might object to using school transportation to take the students to the church location. But if students or families provide the transportation, does the group still have an argument?

Here is a link that might be useful: Churches can't feed HS football team


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

I don't mind if churches want to feed the students.

I have taught my children that if someone offers a mealtime prayer that they should quietly sit there out of respect.

Sounds like the coach is doing a lot of captive preaching though:

They also allege that the coach prayed with his team, used Bible verses in motivational speeches and on team shirts and participated in the Fellowship of Christian Athletes.

Some parents might certainly want him to tone that down a bit out of respect for other religions the students might practice.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

What if all the athletes are Christian and they have their parents permission?


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Well, that would great. But do you really think they asked all students if they were Christian?


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Thu, Aug 23, 12 at 12:35

Yes, this is an egregious violation of the Establishment Clause, and it borders on bullying. What a terrible idea. This marginalizes team members who have different beliefs, or no beliefs, it must be terribly uncomfortable for some of these kids.

To limit it to "Christian kids with their parents permission" is no solution, either. That means that some of the team members are excluded from the pre-game meal and team-building that goes on.

And you KNOW, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that these churches are doing this to "save souls", they have no other motive at all.

If the school wants to allow outside groups to prepare a meal for the kids, they can drop the food off at school, but if it is a church, then it must be completely hands off.

This is an example of why we not only have to ensure we have freedom of religion, but also freedom FROM religion.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Anybody watch "friday night lights"?


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Substitute Wiccan they'd howl!


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

There's more to the story than what Nik's link suggests. I'm surprised that the parents of the Mormon team members didn't make a complaint.

The allegations against Mariakis include:

-Holding pre-game meals at a local church, where a "preacher sermonizes to the players about the Christian religion."

-Pressuring players to attend a Christian football camp that the players must pay for.

-Leading pre- and post-game prayers.

-Using bible verses on team gear and in motivational speeches.

-Taking the team to a Mormon church and afterwards making fun on the religion within the proximity of Mormon players.

Click for the complaint filed by the FFRF.

The complaint lists the coach's actions that are unconstitutional per USSC decisions.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

If you want this for your children, send them to a parochial school.

Public schools are not for prayer or mixing it up with religion. Period.

If this is what my public school had done, you better believe I would have stood protesting on the front lines. I sent to them to PUBLIC school for a reason... because I did not want them to have exposure, other than what they would normally hear from classmates, about religion.

If you want your kids exposed to religion, send them to parochial schools.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Oh nik how could you hold out on us like that?


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Is somebody feeling the cloud of desperation forming around the GOP convention and the very election itself?

After all those proud and repeated announcements that Obama would lose and lose BIG - are things not looking so rosy after all?

Coulda had Huntsmann! Coulda woulda shoulda....


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

You mean ....... FOX news came up with an issue leaving out all kinds of pertinent facts, and the slanted, biased, soundbite was dutifully reported here in an OP, and then left for the rest of us to blow it out of the water?

Photobucket


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Sounds like BAU (business as usual).


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

My coworkers kid's attend Catholic Elementary school in NYC & she was assured that the only class that speaks about religion is a religion class which her kids don't attend.
Would it be ok for the kids gay teacher to bring them for lunch at the gay community center show me how it's different. As a student I was not permitted to enter another religion's church. Things have become more liberal now


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

How and why did the atheists get a dog in this fight?

I think the parents of all the kids are the ONLY ones to have a say in this matter.
If there is a problem within...it should be handled within.

Here is just another example of atheists sticking their nose in to something that is none of their business.

Next they will be wanting turbans banned, crosses around necks hidden, yada yada yada.

Personally, I think they should stay out of other peoples
business, anywhere anytime.

If any of this is not DIRECTLY applying to their freedom
of choice....then who are THEY who cansay who gets a free meal and a prayer before a meal.
Its the PARENTS business .

I get tired of hearing it.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Thu, Aug 23, 12 at 16:28

No parent would be stupid enough to jeopardize their child's safety by filing such a lawsuit. What do you think teammates would do once they found out who's parent filed such a lawsuit. They have to continue to live in that town, you know.

This is exactly the sort of thing an outside group must do. Otherwise, this will continue.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

If any of this is not DIRECTLY applying to their freedom
of choice....then who are THEY who can say who gets a free meal and a prayer before a meal.
Its the PARENTS business.

So those court rulings forbidding prayer and proselytizing should be ignored? As long as no one objects, the judges' decisions mean nothing?

From the documents following the letter to the school district, a Protestant version of Christianity is involved. Should Catholics have to be subjected to this proselytizing?

In the link to FFRF, the letter to the Walker County Superintendent of Schools makes reference to a local complainant. Anyone who pays taxes that supports the school district should be very concerned.

Personally, I think they should stay out of other peoples
business, anywhere anytime.

Personally, I think that fundamentalist proselytizers should stay out of others' business, anywhere and anytime, unless personally approached and asked to do so.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

I stand by my opinion.

I think the parents would and will step up to a situation
if they think their child is being taken advantage of.
We see it every day within many school or sport events.

No it is not some atheists up in Wisconsin's business to
get involved down in Georgia's business, since Georgia
is in the Bible Belt to start with and probably the parents are very comfortable with the situation.

Before the busy body atheists make trou(?) maybe the parents should be polled on this .

How would any of you like it if an outside group came into your community and tried to tell you what your kids could do or not do????
Don't you think YOU are a better judge of what you want your kids to be involved in?


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

citywoman - have you ever heard of separation of church and state?

Public schools, funded by public (tax) money, cannot preach religion (ANY RELIGION) in school.

What is so difficult to understand?

Don't you think YOU are a better judge of what you want your kids to be involved in?

If you want your kids to be preached to during school, SEND THEM TO PRIVATE RELIGOUS SCHOOL.

It cannot be done in public schools.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

I repeat my questions to citywoman.

So those court rulings forbidding prayer and proselytizing should be ignored? As long as no one objects, the judges' decisions mean nothing?

and probably the parents are very comfortable with the situation.

So any Catholics in the Bible Belt should suffer in silence when Protestants come proselytizing through high school sports. And if Mormons are mocked, too bad. OK!

Don't you think YOU are a better judge of what you want your kids to be involved in?

I would expect the schools to adhere to the law, not follow what the majority wants to impose on everyone else.

Since when do the fundamentalists have the right to define their version of Christianity as THE correct belief? If you can't stomach adhering the law because atheists are objecting, try at least to think of protecting the non-fundamentalist Christians, the non-Protestant Christians, and those who practice non-Christian religions.

Can you imagine the uproar if the coach were promoting the Greek or Russian Orthodox religion?


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Why wouldn't it be ok for a gay teacher to take the kids
to a gay comm center for lunch.
A permission slip has to be signed by a parent first.
Let the parent make that decision.

As for kids being sheltered from other kids faith and beliefs...how are they ever going to learn tolerance?
Where is the mantra from the left on tolerance ?

ESH
"I don't mind if churches want to feed the students.
I have taught my children that if someone offers a mealtime prayer that they should quietly sit there out of respect."

Esh, what an unbiased view you have taught your kids!
You have taught your kids a valuable lesson.
Respect for others beliefs and religion.

Some parents would tell their kids to get up and leave the table or room.
That is teaching them disrepect.

I don't get this message of "making other kids uncomfortable".
If they are being taught tolerance and respect, why would they be uncomfortable. Every kid should be able to openly
discuss their religion anywhere they choose and other kids
be use to it as business as usual so to speak.

Maybe the atheists should take a step back and let parents
watch and see and listen and decide what they don't want their kids to hear or see or participate in.

I think atheists overstep their bounds sometimes.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

I think fundamentalists overstep their bounds.

I forget; when it comes making "god" a two syllable word, there are no bounds.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

nancy.....the article said "churches" not what kind were
cooking and feeding the kids.
Maybe churches of all faiths were involved.
I would think so since thats what our churches use to do.

The coach would naturally have a prayer and bless the food
and ask for strength for the team.

Who is to say he did anything more than that.
Why would anyone care if the kids were being fed in different faith churches?????

Why would anyone care if a blessing was said.
This was NOT INSIDE the school for goodness sake!

Let the parents decide this , not strangers.

I think personal decisions like this should be left to the community.

This was NOT inside a school.
The atheists are just bent out of shape at the thought of
someone hearing the name GOD spoke anywhere.
They don't just get involved in religion in school.
If they could close down our churches...they would.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Oh, my, this is just so scary.

Where did I say children cannot discuss their religion.

I didn't say that. If I were demi, I would tell you to stop it.

I said that the school cannot do it.

Your attitude that athiests do not teach respect is ridiculous. We are athiests. If we are in someone's home, we abide by their rules. We have had dinner at friend's houses that say a prayer before eating. We hold hands and bow our heads because we are respectful.

I have also stayed at a friend's house (different friend). She is very religious. Out of respect for me, she removed the cross with JC on it that was over the bed in the room I was staying in. I would never in a million years ask her to do that. I would have slept in the room and not even thought twice about it. She did that out of respect for me.

Your prejudice against athiests is showing loud and clear. And you're proud of it and think it's ok.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

If they could close down our churches...they would.

You are one scary lady. You obviously do not know the first thing about athiests. Or anyone outside your little circle. Please go educate yourself before you embarass yourself more than you have.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

So its settled. Let the Fox watchers have their way and the majority religion or denomination in the school district get to decide what religious standards everyone else will live with at school events. Catholics and Jews will have to endure Southern Baptists except when they are in the majority and then Baptists will have to attend Mass or confess and learn about actually its the Jews who are the chosen people. No problem there. Can you imagine the uproar from fundamentalists if Muslim based schools got equal time at sporting events to pray over the PA system to Allah?

Yeah of course, its all about atheists. Wah. Religion in after school activities is just fine for conservatives when they are the ones pushing this down everyone's else' throat but when they are in the minority, it will be a different story.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

I choose to pass on CW's comments and opinion for which she is certainly entitled to have and will continue to have my own.

I would like to address the reason Nik posted this the way she did - the purpose I think she had behind putting this as a hot topic. I feel confident that Nik will be more than pleased to come back and correct any impression which she consideres to be false and then explain why she left out vital info for the sake of debate.

I think she objects, perhaps ridicules the idea of an organized atheist group, and wished to point out that this group was attempting to change the town's routine which has been in effect for who knows how long.

I agree with her if this is the case. I think that a group of people who are atheists actually form a club, organization - whatever, are silly. They are grouped with the identity of DIS belief? What a silly and petty stand to take.

If they wish to object to what many, including myself, feel to be the existence of the most powerful lobby in this country which I think of as the Christian lobby, then get a name which reflects that they - as AMERICANS - object to religion having the power to ignore the Constitution and do what they wish in the name of Jesus Christ, the son of God.

Get a name of who you are, and DISbelief of a God isn't who someone is. It's silly, petty, ridiculous - remember this is my opinion only.

Their important point will also will be ignored for their silliness.

Be grown up people and identify yourselves as Americans for freedom from the religious lobbby or whatever you like.

I have expressed myself incredibly badly but I hope the point is made.

I used to feel that objecting to things like this by disbelievers was incredibly petty when acting or organizing to protest. Incredibly petty. I said so in a debate over three years ago and my stand was heatedly debated. It didn;t change my mind then - but I thought about the remarks made.

My mind has been changed only recently - when in NYC a muslim church was to be put in the city and what Christians did to prevent it. Ugly. Powerful. God didn't save this Muslim church, the Constitution did.

I no longer think such objections to seemingly small things are petty.

I have watched conservatives use the shield of God and the religion of Christian to attempt to deny American citizens their rights that they themselves enjoy and feel entitled to enjoy - and feel entitled via their Christian belief to deny to others.

I have seen the reaction of those muslims who attempt to practice their belief peacefully in a building which is to be revered as should any such a peaceful house of God be revered - by the whole community.

In this nowhere, quiet state with bland but very Christian people who populate it, the Muslim church in the next town - a church my husband passes every day on his way to work - requires a 24 hour guard outside the building which is a Church of God after all, in order to prevent it from being trashed. I'm quite sure the members of the church of God also feel threatened.

By who?

By American Christians. To other Americans.

This happens in America by Christians who feel that God is on their side.

I no longer think that because of the BIG picture and history of the behavior of American Christians, these small things are harmless.

They are not - those who identify themselves as American Christians all across the land has proved it. They want a nation which is Christian and with that, the power to dominate as they feel their God and their religion allowes, even demands.

Which is contrary to the entire point of this country, it's Constitution and of democracy.

Separation of Church and State is incredibly important if this is to be a nation of simple freedom to live as you believe for EVERY citizen, even those you disagree with, as long as it falls within the Constitution.

Which this is not. This town is an American town. If they break the Constitution, as an American it is most certainly my business.

But please, for the love of all that is NOT Holy

........get a different name, what those atheists have chosen is stupid and nobody takes stupid as people who have anything worth pondering.

I don't care what anyone believes in or not - as long as they follow the laws of this nation. The constitution was written for me and my interests, an atheist, as well as any Christian with their beliefs and interests.

It is meant to protect the interests of all Americans. this is not a Christian country, this is an American country. A point not to be forgotten or ignored - with consequences if it is, for all concerned.

My opinion


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

the article said "churches" not what kind were
cooking and feeding the kids.

My link to the letter from the FFRF including exhibits supporting the complaint. That's where you'll find what I reference.

This was NOT inside a school.

It does not matter according to court decisions. Again, the FFRF letter cites numerous court cases which support the demand for the coach's actions to stop.

What the coach and Ridgeland High School are teaching is disrespect for the law. If the school administration wants to refuse all tax dollars supporting the school, pay for the property, and operate as a private school, I have no objection to their actions. Accepting tax dollars means comply with the law.

citywoman, you're so outraged that atheists can demand that the law be respected that you ignore the rights of other Christians not to suffer proselytizing by a denomination with which they do not agree. The separation of church and state protects both atheists and members of other religions, including the numerous Christian denominations.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Mylab - I disagree with one thing you said. You said you expressed yourself badly. I disagree. You expressed yourself beautifully!

I say ditto to everything mylab said.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

How and why did the atheists get a dog in this fight?

READ. You have how many posts on this thread and you have read nothing about it?

A member of the community notified FFRF.

I think the parents of all the kids are the ONLY ones to have a say in this matter.

No the parents only have a say solely on what their children do, not the school system. Other members of the community who support the school and its programs have a say as well. Not to mention the school system should work under the law of the US.

As for kids being sheltered from other kids faith and beliefs...how are they ever going to learn tolerance?

Certainly not from this coach. One of the complaints filed is he is alleged to have taken the team to a Mormon church and afterwards made fun of the religion within the proximity of Mormon players.

How exactly does that teach tolerance?

The coach would naturally have a prayer and bless the food
and ask for strength for the team.
Who is to say he did anything more than that.

The complaints filed against him and the fact that he is mandated to NOT do that.

Read.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

What goes on in that Georgian comm is none of my business
nor is it anyone elses business and thats all I am going to say on this matter.

As for atheists....your allowed to believe in nothing but you have to remember that there are more people who believe in "something" all across this country.

Why can't you hold that concept of believing in nothing
near and dear and let the others do the same.

No one in Georgia was in your business.
No one in Georgia was in Wisconsins business.

You didn't have to be subjected to the prayer before
a meal.
So what business was it of yours or any other atheiest?


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Mylab, I don't know about Nik, but for myself, I think this group needs to rethink things. The name of their organization is misquoted, and yes, I'm sure it's deliberate, but nonetheless. It's not supposed to be, nor was it ever MEANT to be freedom FROM religion, but rather freedom OF religion.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

You are so clueless. I don't even know why I bother. What you don't understand is it has nothing to do with atheists. It has to do with the law! I would be saying the same thing if someone were preaching that there is no god to those kids. You can't do that with public money.

Like I said educate yourself. Or as epi said READ.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Either you have God, or you have the absence of God. Which one is it? Jill, you can't have neither.


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So what business was it of yours or any other atheiest?

It became the interest of anyone who cares when the FFRF made this public after BEING CONTACTED BY A MEMBER OF THE COMMUNITY as was stated before and on all the non-biased news reports.

Freedom From Religion Foundation co-President Laurie Annie Gaylor said Wednesday the organization investigated after receiving a complaint from someone familiar with the school's activities.

"We're getting the complaint and we need to bring it to the attention of the school district," Gaylor said. "We don't go searching around the country for violations to write about. We don't make money on this."

...
On the audio, a man identified as Brother Larry Scott talks about his faith at length. He concludes by questioning the players about what would happen if they were to die.

"Who here can say, 'Brother Larry, I know without a shadow of a doubt if that bus goes down in a ditch and I die today on the way back to the field to dress up, that I'm going to heaven, I know I'm a saved Christian.'"
He then asks the players to raise their hands if they aren't sure.

Those boys, he said, "need to get with your coach."
"You need to get with somebody and find out, because you know this: There is no guarantee that I will see you again," he said. "That is not meant to be a scare tactic. It's just the reality of what's going on. You guys hit hard. You play hard. Things can happen to your body."
Scott concludes his prayer with, "In Jesus' name I pray," and calls on the team to shout "Amen!" several times.

The Freedom From Religion Foundation's written complaint specifically cites at least one other football team church outing.

"We have been told that Mariakis previously took the team to a Mormon church, and afterward he made fun of that religion within earshot of Mormon players," the letter from staff attorney Andrew Seidel said.

What part of this is just a little passive prayer before a meal?

He has every right to take his team for a religious dinner before or after games but if that is what he wants to do then he needs to seek employment at a religious or private school and NOT a public one. Simple.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

would you be happy if the christian students were fed at a Muslim mosque and prayed at beofre their next game?


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

you have to remember that there are more people who believe in "something" all across this country.

And those people who believe in "something" don't necessarily all believe in the same "something" nor in the same way; one group believing in a particular "something" should not have the right to dictate that all act as if that group's particular "something" were the only legitimate "something."

Framing the question as one of atheists v Christians ignores the full meaning of separation of Church(es) and state.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

To Citywoman - '
you seem to be missing this key


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Posted by youngquinn VIC Aust (My Page) on Thu, Aug 23, 12 at 21:47

"would you be happy if the christian students were fed at a Muslim mosque and prayed at beofre their next game?"

If their parents don't mind, I don't mind. Free food, right? In this economy, if someone offers to feed your teenagers, I say go for it. Do you mind, Bill?

Is it a question of "happy", or will "I don't mind" do? I don't recall anyone saying they were actually "happy" about any of this, after all.

That being said, it sounds like "Brother Scott" was out of line.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Doesn't bother me a bit.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

When I was in school many years ago, I had friends from many different religions.
We all went to the other's church on occasions as guest.
The only kids not aloud in our church were the Church Of
Christ.

I would have had no problem with my son being fed at
a Muslim Mosque before a game.

I think it would be perfectly acceptable for every religion to have a turn on the
PA system with the prayer of their faith in school.
Every faith.

What a wonderful way for all kids to be exposed to
their friends beliefs.
But thats just me.
I love the idea that so many have a belief of a
higher power regardless of who it is.

There is the difference between me and an atheists.
If an atheists wanted their turn at the PA on their belief
of no God then have at it.

It wasn't the majority that wanted religion out of schools.
It was the minority......atheists.

To this day I can't believe the atheists won.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

City, we had a similar experience growing up. We were raised Catholic, and next door were three spinster ladies: Edith (Baptist), Lena (Methodist) and Olive (Church of the Nazarene). Every once in a while, Mom sent us to church with one of them so we could see what was similar and what was different. It would have been interesting if there had been more sisters with even more choices, but there weren't, alas.

Oh, and we went to summer camp at Camp Luther one year.

These exercises were meant to broaden our horizons.


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It wasn't the majority that wanted religion out of schools.
It was the minority......atheists.

To this day I can't believe the atheists won.

Oh really CW? Are you absolutely sure of that statement and your facts?

Because I bed to differ with you on that claim of yours.

The facts on the case

Remarkably, the National Council of Churches and several Jewish organizations favored Madalyn O'Hair's case! Not a single Christian organization filed a brief in support of school prayer. The Supreme Court ruled 8 to 1 in favor of abolishing school prayer and Bible reading in the public schools.

sounds like, to me, that the majority claim is in question. No one, no organization, no religious group, church, synagogue filed anything in support of prayer in school.

Facts are facts CW, doesn't sound like you did your checking on the facts, just posted an opinion and claimed it as fact.

Here is a link that might be useful: factual information minority vs. majority support ending prayer in school


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Was it atheists or communists that got religion taken out of schools?
"Skousen authored The Naked Communist and was the source of the publication "1963 Communist Goals" list.[23] In 1970, he wrote The Naked Capitalist, which claimed that top Western merchant bankers, industrialists and related institutions were behind the rise of Communism and Fascism around the world.[24] The Naked Capitalist has been cited by many, including Cleon Skousen's nephew Joel Skousen, as proof of a "New World Order" strategy to create a One World Government."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleon_Skous�

This book was written in 1970, but the speech giving the list of Communist Goals was given in 1963 in the House.

Goal 28,

"28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the ground that it violates the principle of "separation of church and state."

http://www.rense.com/general32/americ.ht�

There are several other true to today items on this list, but my question is, who really fought to get religion taken out of schools, atheists or communists, it seems to be a communist goal?
Best Answer - Chosen by Asker
I think atheist is synonymous with communist, therefore their goals are the same. By forcing religion out of the public forum the goal is to minimize the power of God so that people look to the state as the highest power.

The Constitution allows freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. I don't think the founding fathers ever imagined that the government would control our schools, but even then, a morning prayer and/or the pledge of allegiance, or prayer at football games, etc. is NOT the state establishing a religion.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

I don't think the founding fathers ever imagined that the government would control our schools, but even then, a morning prayer and/or the pledge of allegiance, or prayer at football games, etc. is NOT the state establishing a religion.

Too many court cases have been decided against prayer in public schools for the above to be valid.

There are plenty of religious schools where prayer and is permitted.

By forcing religion out of the public forum the goal is to minimize the power of God so that people look to the state as the highest power.

The above statement is not true. Religion is part of our public life; we're free to worship as we please, there are religious media -- radio, television, magazines -- Christian music and books. But the U.S. is not a theocracy so the separation of Church(es) and state.

citywoman, since you seem intent on ignoring my points, I'll express myself in very personal terms. If any of my family were subjected to proselytizing by fundamentalists by means of a public school, I would complain loudly to the school administration, and the school district. I would also complain to the Catholic Archdiocese and ask that they put pressure on the schools to put an immediate stop to the proselytizing. Is that clear enough? Catholics would not be pleased to have Protestant fundamentalists trying to convert their children. This has nothing to do with atheism.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

There are plenty of religious schools where prayer and is permitted.

There are plenty of private schools where prayer and religious instruction are permitted.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

By forcing religion out of the public forum the goal is to minimize the power of God so that people look to the state as the highest power.

This is not fact, this is nothing more than fear mongering, paranoia, fear of those that believe differently than oneself.

Facts are simple, we in this country are free to worship as we see fit, as we believe, and to do so within our chosen religious beliefs and houses of worship. We are also free to not worship, not believe as we see fit.
These are the choices that we are afforded in this country.

What is not afforded, is not allowed is not permissible is forcing other people to participate in any one religious prayer, within a public school, listen to someone read a religious prayer or religious reading of any kind, again, regardless of what religion it is from within a public school . It is not allowed, is not legal is a violation of the law and has been established and upheld by SCOTUS.

It really doesn't matter CW, whether you like it or not, whether you agree with it or not, it is established law and it was supported by more than Atheists, as I quoted above.

Ignore the facts, all you want, all you are really expressing is paranoia, fear, bigotry. Your own opinion that is lacking in facts and law.

The fact is, the majority of the people do not want any one religious group doing any kind of proselytizing, attempting to convert their children under any circumstances.

As Nancy stated above, and you continue to ignore the facts, THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ATHEISM.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Another deliberately mis-informing thread started? Par for the course. Consider the source: Zero credibility.

As Nancy stated above, and you continue to ignore the facts, THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ATHEISM.

Oh but she knows that. She just has no problem with breaking the law. Also, note the silence on that coach mocking mormon religion.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Of course ITS ABOUT ATHEISM.
Its about God and the disdane atheists have for Him.

It has never had anything to do with peoples rights.
If it was about rights then the people who believe
in God wouldn't have to be subjected to all of the
negative comments , and constant ugly remarks directed
toward Christians on this forum.

I have sat silently and never responded for months
and months and have read post after post from
atheists quoting bible verses AT Christians on this
forum and taunting Christians with Bible verses.
Calling some of us "so called Christians".

I have said from day 1 I won't debate my religion on
a forum and I still won't.
I will say what I feel and think is true regarding
some atheists on this forum.

Atheists resent the idea of God and could care less
about separation of church & state.
That is the only avenue an atheist has to try and erase
the name of God.

Atheists use the courts to do their dirty work for
them all in the name of pretending to care about
"the poor uncomfortable kids who aren't Christians",
like the Catholics or Muslims or others being left out.
Hogwash!

Atheists don't believe there is a God so why act concerned for kids that do have a believe.

Next you will be jerking Crosses from around Christians
necks if they are standing on the school yard.

This is all I am saying on this subject.
Much more than I wanted to.
But I have had enough of the Christian bashing on here without speaking out.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Its about God and the disdane atheists have for Him.

No, it's about the U.S. Constitution and court decisions based upon that document.

Atheists use the courts to do their dirty work for them all in the name of pretending to care about "the poor uncomfortable kids who aren't Christians",
like the Catholics or Muslims or others being left out.

You are disregarding the actual objections that Catholics or Muslims (or Jewish people) might have regarding the imposition of a Protestant version of faith as the default religion.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Ok, now what happens if the kids, after hearing the coach mock the Mormon Church, go back and tell their parents that they shouldn't vote for Romney?
And the parents listen? And instead hold their noses and vote for Obama, because he's more their kinda Christian?

Does that change the equation?

/predict heads will as'plode


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Many of you are casting this as some atheist attack on religion but it's not. Its about freedom to observe your own religion and not have a state church shoved down your throat. That's a big part of why so many different faiths fled to America - to escape the bloodshed in the political battles between Catholics and Protestants (England v Spain, Scotland, France & Ireland) and the intrusion of the state supported Church of England (Anglican Church) - a church that was supported by taxes paid by people of other faiths (Puritans, Congregationists, Presbyterians, Quakers, Mennonites, Jesuits, Lutherans, Huguenots, etc) and that pushed its control into the religious lives of nonadherents.

It also seems to me you are jumping to comparisons of Christian and Muslim and ignoring the big differences in your own Christian denominations. Its one thing to voluntarily join in multi-faith activities or experience and explore different religious faiths - we've all done that. What this community is doing is imposing one (the majority) religious standard on a captive local audience everyone on the team and attending the games which tramples the beliefs of other faiths and atheists. It doesn't matter that the number of people opposed is small. Our Constitution protects everyone's religious freedom (freedom to participate and freedom from state support church).


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Fri, Aug 24, 12 at 10:48

It's so funny, in 21st Century America, that so-called Christians, who have more religious freedom than any time in history, whine so much about how badly they are treated.

GIVE ME A BREAK. You've never had it so good, and probably never will.

Apparently, these people know nothing about the history of "Christian nations". The intolerance, the cruelty, the genocide practiced by these so-called Christians, the murders, the witch hunts, the Inquisition (which no one expected). You don't want to live in a Christian theocracy. That would be the worst of all possible worlds.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Either you have God, or you have the absence of God. Which one is it? Jill, you can't have neither.

Sorry, Bill, I have no idea what you are talking about. I'd like to answer your question. Please explain.

Facts are facts CW, doesn't sound like you did your checking on the facts, just posted an opinion and claimed it as fact.

But, littleone, CW already posted a while back that opinion is fact. There's no arguing with that logic.

I don't know why we keep trying to make CW understand this. She's not capable of understanding. She has no concept of what the constitution is. And she doesn't care. In CW's opinion (which is fact in case you forgot), if you don't believe in a god you're a bad person.

Atheists resent the idea of God and could care less about separation of church & state.

Let me help you out here. I'm pretty sure you mean couldn't care less. I'm not even going to bother pointing out to you how stupid this statement is because you're not capable of understanding. But, I thought I'd help you with your english. Maybe you will use the correct phrase in the future.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

kingt....we don't know for a fact that the coach "made fun" of Mormon kids. I don't believe it for a second.
That bunch of fruit cakes have to come up with alot of
over the top crap since it wasn't "in a school " to be heard on this.

It�s unclear based on the letter sent to the school district whether the complainant is a student or member of the local community.

Ken Klukowski, special counsel for the Family Research Council said the FFRF has a long history of going after public displays of religion. Their mission, he said is very clear.

"They believe all religious faith is inherently and irredeemably harmful to human society," Klukowski told Fox News. "It�s not their mission to separate church and state. It�s their mission to eradicate religion from American culture altogether."

momj4 you are wrong.
We get plenty of intolerance on this forum such as:
so-called Christians,
Apparently, these people

I would bet all of my 401K on the person that notified
those wackos up in Wis is an atheist!
All $800,000. of it!!

No one but an atheist would stick their nose into a meal that was blessed over!


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Attacking the Christian Jill?


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

More proof that CW is incapable of understanding.

And why would you tell us how much money is in your 401k? That's just very weird.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Fri, Aug 24, 12 at 12:10

At least we are not out killing people in the name of some god. We intolerant people on HT are not insisting, at the end of gun, or sword, that you believe the way we do, or else......

A lot of terrible things have happened, throughout history, in the name of gods; words used on HT do not begin to compare to the horrors we have visited on people who's only "crime" was to be different from us.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

CW, I am not an atheist and I believe strongly that religion has no place in PUBLIC education. What you don't seem to want to understand is that one does NOT need to be an atheist to be offended when they are forced to be "part" of someone else's religion. It is absolutely wrong that a Jewish or Catholic or Mormon or Muslim child must sit thorough the reading of prayers that are not their own.

Religion belongs in private schools not public schools.

"We get plenty of intolerance on this forum such as"

CW what is the difference between your intolerance of atheists and their intolerance of Christians?


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Fri, Aug 24, 12 at 12:35

IS there intolerance of Christians stated on this thread?


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

I would no more force anyone else's children to sit through a diatribe on why god doesn't exist... than I'd want my children to sit through the prayers of a religion they didn't belong to.

Public is public... religion is private. What's the big deal on keeping it that way?


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Public is public... religion is private. What's the big deal on keeping it that way?

Seems so simple, doesn't it. Yet some are not able to comprehend.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

This is just my opinion, Jodik, but it can't be done. Consider the appeal to vanity - be one of us and you'll be one of God's chosen. There's no salvation without us. Conform to a doctrine and make it a life's work to have the rest of society conform to the same doctrine. Not even necessary to think for one's self since someone else has already done all the thinking.

Found this quote by Randall Terry, Founder of Operation Rescue...

"I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good... Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a Biblical duty, we are called by God, to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism."

Scary, no?


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Very scary, Duluth.

I don't need to be saved. I don't want to be saved. My salvation is not in question. I'm not an empty, soulless heathen as some of these extremists might put it. I'm completely happy and fulfilled without worshiping something I feel doesn't exist... and that's my right.

It's very vain to think it's someone's personal duty to save everyone's soul. That's mighty presumptuous, in my opinion.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

This is what is being argued (link) but some have their opinion and hold it as fact ignoring the law, just like a robber or murderer that thinks they are right. You never listen do you? Rock for a head cannot hear the truth of the law and will not read it because the opinion is the truth. If you want religion to be OK in public schools the you are saying OK to all religions even the one that uses this prayer...

"Prayer of the Satanic Warrior

Oh Satan, you give us the power to trample the remnants of Christianity that is left in this world

Fill us with your essence

Let it run through our veins, our souls, our minds... our entire being

We trample on the cross... we spit upon the book of lies... we desecrate the virgin whore

Forever standing proud against the Abrahamic 'god'

We blaspheme his holy spirit and laugh at his suffering

Inspiring those in shackles to break free from his tyrant ways

Entice them to take that precious bite, where they will be delivered forevermore

You are the mighty one, Lord Satan

And have bestowed upon us the knowledge that has made us what we are today

We hail your name and stand strong with you for all eternity

Inspire us even further to do the work you have for us

To be warriors for you in this world and beyond

Standing up to our enemies and yours alike

We honour you through our words, our actions, our thoughts

Each day that we live upon this earth, may we grow stronger in wisdom and in our love for you

You are our Father, our Teacher, our Muse, our Everything

We have taken your mark in dedication

And the universe will know that we are yours

Place your mighty hand upon us and lead us further down your infernal path

Hail Satan!"

It is a religion and should ave just as much right as the rest. Let one in then you must let them all in.

Here is a link that might be useful: U.S. Constitution Online Constitutional Topic: The Constitution and Religion


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

FOX news really knows how to pick their subject. Some fringe group in Wisconsin picking out some bible-belt high school football coach letting churches feed the team. I wonder who dug that one up.

I'm desperate for some more Kardashian stuff (whoever they are).

-Ron-


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on Fri, Aug 24, 12 at 12:10

At least we are not out killing people in the name of some god. We intolerant people on
HT are not insisting, at the end of gun, or sword, that you believe the way we do, or else......

What a silly remark. I don't know anyone who does that
***********************************************************
Posted by jodik 5 (rumpelstiltskin@coxwireless.com) on Fri, Aug 24, 12 at 14:28

I'm completely happy and fulfilled without worshiping something I feel doesn't exist... and that's my right.

Yes it is . I doubt anyone wants to try to convert you
It is also the right of the coach & his team to say a prayer over a meal in a church...if they so choose....which they did
**********************************************************
Posted by chase z6 (My Page) on Fri, Aug 24, 12 at 12:19
CW what is the difference between your intolerance of atheists
and their intolerance of Christians?

chase I try to usually not respond to your post but this time is an exception.
My intolerance only kicks in when atheists go
out of their way to cause discord and trouble
for good people minding their own business in
their own communities.

I have never made ANY comment to an atheists
on this board EVER.
I can say that without fear of anyone going back
through posts to try and find one comment because
it wouldn't be there.

Atheists have made negative comments about
Christians on this forum and you have read them many
times if you would be honest. I never responded.
My intolerance kicked in on this subject because this event was not in a school.

What if the coach had taken the guys to his home for
a meal. Where does this stop???????

This was clearly a case of an atheiest getting
bent out of shape because a coach & his team
were in a church. Period. Not a school.
*********************************************************
don.....your argument isn't even rational.

jill I mentioned the 401k so you could despise me for being a Christian and being rich.
You get two with one stone...so to speak.

I'm through with this.
Take this to 150 and make this a mutual admiration
society.
I'm moving on to soft music and serenity.
Some of you could benefit from the same.
Good day.



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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

I'm convinced that CW is extremely paranoid about her Christian religion and her ability, to practice and believe in her Christian faith.

Therefore any attempt at keeping religion of any kind, where it belongs, outside the realm of public education, becomes a serious threat to her, to her Christian religious beliefs and she is unable to have a coherent conversation, or ability to understand what is really going on and said.

There is no point in attempting to get through to CW or to anyone like her, who believes as she does. Fear, paranoia rules their lives and their religious beliefs.

How sad to live as she does and have no ability to understand the truth.

The truth being that there was no majority support for prayer in public schools when it went to SCOTUS. No one but the ones bringing the case to SCOTUS filed a brief. NO one else did, no religious group, no anyone. The majority did not support prayer in school.

How single minded and bigoted it is to want to demand that prayer be forced back into schools, that religious prayers of other religions be forced on those that don't believe in that religion and be done all in the name of Christianity.
How insulting to have to hear prayers about some religious figure that doesn't exist in someone else's religion. How insulting can one be to force down the throat of someone else that their religion is what should be pushed in this country.

You want religion and prayers in your schools, take your kids and put them in a religious school, not a public school where everyone can and does attend and has the right to be free of someone else's religious beliefs.

No one, and I repeat no one is attempting to prevent anyone from practicing his or her religious beliefs or forcing anyone to practice a religious belief when they don't believe in any religion, and why CW or anyone would actually believe this is beyond the realm of understanding.

The fact that people stand up for their rights under the constitution, under the laws that SCOTUS as confirmed are our rights, and happen to believe differently than CW and some others in this country does not make them evil persons and it sure as heck doesn't make them Atheists either.

Such fear of someone, a group of people that does not believe in a Religion is beyond understanding. They are not trying to prevent anyone from practicing
any religion, just because they don't believe in one. They are trying to make sure that the laws are being followed and that no one is having a religious belief forced on them that is not their religious belief.

How hard is that to understand? How simple can it be made so that it can be understood?

Enough, is really enough from the religious right. This country is not one that has one religion or is ruled by one particular religion, one religious belief.
NO one has the right to force their religious or lack of religious belief onto someone else.

Hence the ruling by SCOTUS, no prayer in public schools. NO city or town or state sponsored religious belief, on "public property", that being city, town, state property. But it has been OK'd when all religions are represented at one time.

The religious right enjoys this absurdity that they spew, this attack on Christianity, this attack on religion, all lies, and those living in reality, in "the real world" no these claims are nothing but rhetoric being spewed in an attempt to gain control of the laws in this country and turn the USA into a religious country ruled by the right wing Evangelical Christians.

Christian intolerance?

That's a joke, the intolerance comes from the right wing Christians on this forum and in this country. Just look at the comments made by CW and there it is; intolerance of religions other than their own, intolerance of anyone that doesn't believe as they do.

No one but an atheist would stick their nose into a meal that was blessed over!

Oh really? You know this for a fact? Nope it is your opinion and nothing more than that.

Muslims,
Jews,
Protestants

Just to name a few, would be upset and, as you put it "sticking their nose into a meal that was blessed" if it was not a prayer from their religion and done at a meal for public HS students.

How is it, CW, that you are yet to understand the difference between opinion and fact?

Your opinions are not facts, they are your opinions and still confuse the 2.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

It is also the right of the coach & his team to say a prayer over a meal in a church...if they so choose....which they did

NO IT'S NOT. Please, I beg you, educate yourself ON THE LAW. Geez you are embarassing yourself.

jill I mentioned the 401k so you could despise me for being a Christian and being rich.

Wow, you are so delusional. First, I don't despise anyone for being Christian. I am very intolerant of 2 things --
1) people that try to tell me what to believe
2) stupidity

$800K in a 401k means you're rich? Who knew! Really, get a grip.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

And that is the end of that because I said so. Such arrogant tripe coming from one that refuses to understand the laws of the country it is living in. An insignificant mosquito just annoying people to espouse a litany of personal opinions and judging all who respond as them that have no knowledge. What a HOOT. The law says all religion is to be separate from government in all respects so there is not a theocracy but a democracy where all are free to practice what they desire as long as it ids legal in other respects. What you are supporting is equivalent to Sharia law where the religion is the base for the government, just insert Christian law instead and any others will be looked down upon as invalid. It starts with the camel and the flap in the tent. You are not a good representation of Christian, just my opinion or should I say my truth..

"I like your Christ but I do not like your Christians" Gandhi

Oh and by the way I used to be the reader and then the substitute soloist in 5 different Christian Science churches before I formed the beliefs I hold now so take your rich and stuff it.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Personally, I think citywoman is dumbing down this forum on purpose. Her intolerance of and disrespect for any other viewpoint, belief or idea is the antithesis of Christianity. It's also the antithesis of good manners.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

To Bill, for when you specifically addressed me, this is my response -the Constitution trumps religion and it's resulting religious activity, no matter what religion or non-religion, belief or non belief it might be.

This is addressed to anyone who wishes to read it -

Nobody is saying that any of these kids can't practice their religioin as they wish.

They are announcing that according to the Constitution FOR WHICH THIS COUNTRY IS BASED, there exists parameters on where exactly they practice their religion.

Which is not in a tax supported public arena.

I hope if they want to pray for a good game, their parents have a prayer circle before they leave home. But if not, they can pray quietly or out loud in the car as they are driven to the game.

I hope if they wish to pray before eating, they do so quietly within their hearts if they are in a tax supported real estate.

I hope if they wish to eat the food that the good people of that Church has prepared for them, they do so in an area which is not tax supported. I'm certain that if the point of the meal is to feed the players, they will continue the charitable and nice plan without prayer or out of the tax based building since it should come from their hearts and not their religious belief.

If the coach wishes for prayer before the team plays, let him announce that he will hold a prayer circle, with prayers of his own choosing, at his home, before the game - and anyone who wishes to attend may do so and anyone who doesn't will not ever, according to the laws of the constitution, feel any penalty or shun from that coach at all for their exercise of choice.

If they follow those simple rules of the Constituion, it all will be fine with everyone - all allowed to use their religion for strength in a way which is perfectably within the parameters of the Constitution.

Which is exactly how our forefathers who framed the Constitution planned it in the first place, for those who are unaware. They planned it deliberately this way.

If the American religious organizations don't follow the parameters of the Constitution of this land, it is likely that other Americans will file a formal complaint. As it should be.

Not all of the framers of the constitution were Christian or believed in God. Research on the internet is available for further info regarding this subject.

When it comes to America, the Constituion trumps religion. Which is also how the framers of the Constitution deliberately planned it to be.

Majority does not rule, thank goodness, as our sad history proves.

The Consitution rules.

Those atheists may have identified themselves as such, but in the eyes of the Constitution, people are first Americans when discussing what will or won't take place in this country.

AMERICANS started this because other AMERICANS were not following the law according to the Constitution and they weren't following it in a place which belongs to ALL Americans since it was an American town in an American state.

This land is your land and this land is also my land - equally.

If you wish to live in a land where religion trumps the law, there is a large region of the world which can accomodate your wishes.

Of course you won't be able to be in a Christian religion and live there in any relative safety, but if living in a land where religion comes first, there is a region available which fits the bill.

The Constitution trumps religion in the United States Of America.

This is a part of what makes this country so great. It prevents Mormons from demanding that Jews follow their religion. It prevents Jews from demanding that Baptists follow their religion. It prevents Catholics from demanding all religions and their people bend to their will and the laws of their own Christian set of laws.

The democratic world already experienced the wrath that occurs when a Christian religion trumps all other law - the spanish inquisition comes to mind. Read up on it.

The Constitution and it's laws trumps religion and it's laws - and always will.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Well put ninamarie. one also might say TROLL as well.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Bill - I just read through the post again. I think maybe you thought my post on 8/23 @ 20:38 was directed at you since it came right after yours. It was not. My post was in response to CW's post right before yours. I didn't even see yours until just now. Sorry for any confusion.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

You know, I think people were a lot more civil before religion - or what is taken for religion - hijacked every facet of life.

Some just can't pick a head of lettuce from the display without pondering WWJD!!!


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Cw, in no way do your post on this thread indicate anything other than your complete intolerance of atheists. In fact you come across as loathing them. Perhaps it's just your writing "style" but that's how you come across.

As for your 401K....well bless you're little heart.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

The big 401k? That's just too easy. I admire my own restraint. :-)


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

"This has nothing to do with atheism."

Of course it does. Atheism attracts people who share certain beliefs and call themselves atheists. This group of atheists wants an "investigation" into what it believes is unconstitutional. In this case, Wisconsin atheists want the Constitution interpreted in a way that ends a Georgia public school's practice of taking sports teams to churches where they are given a pre-game meal and will likely be exposed to prayers.

The OP asked: "Is this an "egregious violation of the Establishment Clause" as the group claims? I can see where some people might object to using school transportation to take the students to the church location. But if students or families provide the transportation, does the group still have an argument?"

Note the comments below have nothing to do with answering questions or advancing arguments related to the story. They have a different purpose.

"Is somebody feeling the cloud of desperation forming around the GOP convention and the very election itself?"

"You mean ....... FOX news came up with an issue leaving out all kinds of pertinent facts, and the slanted, biased, soundbite was dutifully reported here in an OP, and then left for the rest of us to blow it out of the water?"

"...have you ever heard of separation of church and state?"

"...all you are really expressing is paranoia, fear, bigotry."

"Another deliberately mis-informing thread started? Par for the course. Consider the source: Zero credibility."

"More proof that CW is incapable of understanding.
Seems so simple, doesn't it. Yet some are not able to comprehend."

Raise your hand if you can figure out what that purpose is.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

In this case, Wisconsin atheists want the Constitution interpreted in a way that ends a Georgia public school's practice of taking sports teams to churches where they are given a pre-game meal and will likely be exposed to prayers.

Nik, if you'll click on the link to the FFRF letter (@ Thu, Aug 23, 12 at 12:58), you'll see the citations of court decisions that already interpret the U.S. Constitution in a manner that makes the actions of the coach unlawful. FFRF doesn't "want" the constitution interpreted, but rather that Ridgeland High School respect existing court decisions.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

This group of atheists

Nik, what group of atheists? Nowhere does your linked article or any other source state that the FFRF is composed of atheists.

Or do you find defense of the constitution something only atheists engage in? Why would you assume that? You don't think religious folks are interested in upholding the constitution? That's a pretty bizarre viewpoint.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Duluth, I think part of the problem is... people AREN'T asking "what would Jesus do?"... they are assuming they already know, can speak for him, and it goes more their way than his. I've never known Jesus to be intolerant, not by any writing about him... and I've never known him to force his ideals on anyone who didn't want to listen, by everything written about him. And I've read plenty, being forced to attend 8 years of parochial school, and church on Sundays until adulthood.

Perhaps if there were more true reflection on that one simple question, the world would be a better place... I don't know.

An atheist is simply a person who doesn't believe in a deity, nik... they aren't organized, as far as I am aware. There are not groups.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

An atheist is simply a person who doesn't believe in a deity, nik... they aren't organized, as far as I am aware. There are not groups.

They are in the minds of the paranoid right wing Evangelical crew that is obsessed with turning this country into a Christian right Evangelical ruled country with laws that are based on religion, forget the constitution, that doesn't matter.

Amazing isn't it?


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

I tracked down the 'local tradition':

In an August 21 letter, FFRF Staff Attorney Andrew Seidel asked Walker County Schools Superintendent Damon Raines, to investigate complaints over practices by Mariakis. According to FFRF's local complainant, Ridgeland, like Soddy Daisy and UTC, conducts prayers at school football games, and in this case often organized or led by Mariakis.

Mariakis is accused by the complainant of shuttling players to different churches for pre-game meals and "at these events the church's preacher sermonizes to the players about the Christian religion." Mariakis has stated publicly that the program "opens the door for some of the kids" and is "a way of meeting the need of the churches." Ministers will "bless the food" and according to one church, "presented the Gospel of Jesus Christ" to the players.

FFRF is also calling attention to allegations that Mariakis uses bible verses as motivational tools and places pressure on players to attend a religious football camp.

I wasn't aware of this group FFRF. After reading their web page, I made a donation.

-Ron-


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Eh, if this was in Texas, ...... Still, it's hard to imagine that a high school would invest $59.6 million in its football stadium. But that's precisely the cost of the sparkling new Eagle stadium at Allen High School, in Allen, Texas, a Dallas suburb. The stadium - which boasts a video scoreboard, artificial turf, a multi-level press box, a weight room, a wrestling room and seats for 18,000 - opened Thursday with a pep rally and introduction of the 2012 team. The new season begins on Aug. 31.

So just who is worshiping who? I mean, is the stadium the new church?


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Religion, sports, young peoples groups, money, from pre-school to Penn State...Things like that start young, easier to indoctrinate and lead to whatever the current vehicle to individual control is. This happens more often than is apparent for many purposes some good and some not so good. If a person or group wants to influence or impose their beliefs, way of life or any such control on pliable young minds and bodies to the exclusion of choice by the children involved or their parent/guardian while they have given authority they lose my trust completely. This goes beyond the separation of church and state but is a legitimate concern as it all involves dishonesty and lies.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

"Nik, what group of atheists? Nowhere does your linked article or any other source state that the FFRF is composed of atheists. Or do you find defense of the constitution something only atheists engage in? Why would you assume that? You don't think religious folks are interested in upholding the constitution? That's a pretty bizarre viewpoint."

They call themselves the "Freedom From Religion Foundation." They describe themselves as atheists, agnostics and free thinkers. I take them at their word.

"An atheist is simply a person who doesn't believe in a deity, nik... they aren't organized, as far as I am aware. There are not groups."

Actually, FFRF is looking for new members. You might want to check out their website.

"Nik, if you'll click on the link to the FFRF letter (@ Thu, Aug 23, 12 at 12:58), you'll see the citations of court decisions that already interpret the U.S. Constitution in a manner that makes the actions of the coach unlawful. FFRF doesn't "want" the constitution interpreted, but rather that Ridgeland High School respect existing court decisions.""

Nancy, We know from watching our own SCOTUS that different legal experts can have very different interpretations of the same law. If somebody wants to go to court and make their own argument, it works for me.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Obtuse or deliberate ignorance? It really doesn't matter. The same circular conversation will repeat itself again and again no matter how many times the facts are handfed and the law reiterated. Life goes on.

The ACLU has launched a new campaign challenging schools in South Carolina to become compliant to the current laws or last resort face litigation.

This stems from many complaints and a recent case, "Anderson vs Chesterfield County School District "where they represented a student who was ostracized for his objection to religious events and activities at his middle school.

In September, students at New Heights were compelled to attend an in-school worship rally that featured a sermon delivered by a Christian minister and the Christian rapper known as "B-SHOC" who performs songs like "Jesus Lean," "Crazy Bout God" and "Christ-Like Cruisin."

Students were encouraged to pray and sign a pledge dedicating themselves to Jesus. Students who opted not to attend were forced to go to an in-school detention room instead. The assembly seems to be part of a larger trend throughout the district in which teachers and staff routinely incorporate prayer and proselytizing into school events, and have criticized and harassed students who do not claim to be Christians.

They settled and the District was forced to sign a Consent Decree and stop prostelytizing.


Religious Freedom Goes to School

Religious freedom is a fundamental right, guaranteed by the Constitution, and Religious Freedom Goes to School is a new campaign that aims to strengthen religious freedom in South Carolina's public schools.

Through the Religious Freedom Goes to School campaign, the ACLU and ACLU of South Carolina aim to spark a renewed focus on this essential right in public schools and local communities across the state.

In recent years, the ACLU and ACLU of South Carolina have received a growing number of reports from students, parents, teachers, and others detailing increasingly egregious constitutional violations of this nature in South Carolina's public schools. In the last two years alone, we have received complaints detailing, among other violations of the Constitution:

- in-class daily prayer led by teachers;
- the distribution of Bibles to students;
- prayer and scriptural readings at graduation ceremonies, athletic events, awards ceremonies, and other school activities;
- school-day assemblies featuring prayer, preaching, and other religious content;
- coach-organized and coach-led prayer at football practices;
- school officials leading and participating in student religious clubs; and
- school involvement in the planning, and promotion of, religious baccalaureate services.

We are challenging all of South Carolina's public schools to do more to protect religious freedom because all students, regardless of faith or belief system, should feel safe and welcome in our public schools. Students have the right to decide for themselves what faith, if any, they will follow, without direct or indirect pressure from school officials.

Religious Freedom Goes to School encourages protection of these fundamental rights. With this in mind, the campaign seeks to ensure that schools do not impose or promote religion.

Religious freedom also includes the right to hold and exercise religious beliefs. For more than 90 years, the ACLU has defended the right to freedom of religion and conscience. Religious freedom in the school setting means that students of all faiths - or no faith - can hold and exercise their beliefs without suffering discrimination by school officials. It also means that schools must accommodate, as much as possible, students' religious exercise.
Students may, among other things:
- pray, read religious material, or engage in other religious activities during student activity times (like recess or lunch), provided that they do not cause a disruption or interfere with the education of other students;
- wear religious clothing, such as rosaries or headscarves; and
- form religious or atheist student clubs.

Religious liberty requires that we protect both the right of free exercise for individuals of every faith and the right to remain free from governmental coercion and promotion of religion.

Contrary to what you are claiming, Separation of Church and State is not trying to eradicate religion from anyone's life.

Here is a link that might be useful: Religious Freedom Goes to School


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

And all's well that ends well.

Cases like this one have been settled over and over and over again--all in the same way--by affirming separation of Church and State and freedom of/from religion--including ALL religions as well as no religion. This is not some new, ground-breaking ruling. The Courts have supported that position so many times that the only wonder is why some people still today (as seen on this thread) are still completely ignorant of what the 1st amendment says and what all it encompasses. Instead, they vigorously argue the whole thing over from scratch--as though this were the first time such a topic had ever come up.

What the Court would rule was totally predictable. How come so many posters on this thread did not have a clue? Amazing!

Kate


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Surely the important question is: does the team win?

If the blessed food and holy incantations are effective, questions could be raised about the use of these performance-enhancing additives, and other teams in the league should join the Atheistical Crusade launched by this demonic bunch of un-American 'Free Thinkers' against the use of these unfair tactics.

Best wishes,
Jon


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Thank you Jon, you have nailed this issue, how could we have missed it. I guess most of us don't have kids in high school any more.

In a state like Georgia, winning high school football is the ONLY thing that matters, and it's clear that they will use any means, legal, or illegal to achieve their goal.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Epi, how right you are... this forum spits up the same subject matter disguised under different "news stories" on a regular and quite continual basis... whether to keep the issues standing in front, or with the idea that the opposition will somehow suddenly have a change of mind and comply. Good luck with that, I say.

The Constitution trumps any religious ideas, so the whole point would seem moot, no?

Well, here's a story... repeated for the enjoyment of anyone who cares to read it...

When our eldest son started Kindergarten, it was his mother's brilliant idea to send him to the local catholic school. His father objected, but went along when school officials told him that in no way did anyone have to participate in the religious end of anything. He acquiesced, until a few days later when our son came home crying... he was forced to kneel on hard, dried peas because he refused to say their prayers, which were quite foreign to him. His knees were red, swollen, and bore the marks from kneeling on those dried peas for what one could obviously see had been quite a while... for more than an hour, surely.

My husband drove to the school, gave them a piece of his mind in language I'm sure they hadn't heard in quite some time, and removed our son from future classes. From that time forward, all our children attended local public schools, and did just fine.

I will not tolerate my children or grandchildren being forced into any religious notions until such time as they are adults and make that decision for themselves.

A public school has no business within the realm of religious dealings... and any teachers or coaches who feel otherwise should seek employment at a parochial school.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

I wonder what happens if BOTH teams of equally good and spiritual young men use equally effective spiritual performance enhancers?

I guess then, simple favoritism would be the deciding factor.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Nik, what group of atheists? Nowhere does your linked article or any other source state that the FFRF is composed of atheists.

Circuspeanut-- care to make a little wager that they are?


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

My daughter plays soccer against a team from a Catholic school. Whose student cheerleading chant is:

"God is on our side!!" "God is on our side!!"


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

It doesn't matter if the group or individuals making a complaint are atheists or not. The matter has already been decided by the courts; it is now a question of having public institutions follow the law.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

It doesn't matter if the group or individuals making a complaint are atheists or not.

Nancy, that wasn't the point of my post. Nik made a rather obvious statement (although more than confirmed by several articles on facebook), and Circuspeanut took her to task for it, wanting her to back her statement up. I merely did the same thing.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

I say it is time to ban the teaching atheism from public schools.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Does it matter that those who are opposed to abortion are people of faith? Is it OK that their beliefs take them down the road of opposing a woman's' right to choose? Do they have the right to staunchly support that in which they believe?

I think I know how people of faith might answer those questions and so I also ask....

Does it matter that those who are pro choice are atheists? Is it OK that their beliefs take them down the road of supporting a woman's' right to choose? Do they have the right to staunchly support that in which they believe?

What is the difference? Especially in the land of freedom of thought, expression etc....


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Do they have the right to staunchly support that in which they believe?

They most certainly do. Just as you do too. We don't lose the right to support our feelings when we make the sign of the Cross.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

If Religion isn't considered a polite topic in public, why is it in public school?


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Public school is not a polite place.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

If churches continue to prepare meals and the school does not transport the players to the church, does anyone here object?


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

If churches continue to prepare meals and the school does not transport the players to the church

It was never a simple question of having meals at churches. From the complaint by the FFRF:

-Holding pre-game meals at a local church, where a "preacher sermonizes to the players about the Christian religion."


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Sun, Aug 26, 12 at 11:33

It is absolutely the wrong thing to do, no matter how they get there. To force these young people to listen to a religious address in order to eat is so inappropriate, it boggles the mind. And to exclude some teammates from this pre-game, team-building dinner because they or their parents object to the religious aspect is even worse.

If the school wants a pre-game, teambuilding dinner, have it at school or a rented SECULAR hall, or a park, or a parent's home, with NO involvement from anyone stating any religious affiliation, even someone proselytizing for atheism, or for anything, for that matter, has to be excluded.

This has to be about the team, the entire team, sharing a meal and camaraderie before a game, nothing else. To do otherwise is to marginalize teammates for their beliefs, that have nothing to do with being on a sports team.

Young men can be cruel bullies, so you can bet that teammates who have any personal objections know very well they had better keep their mouth shut or face the consequences.

What is most disturbing about this, the coach is one who sets this up, and boasts about why he does it. Any boy who might have any objections is at the mercy of this teacher to make his life a living hell.

If this happened in your workplace, it would be considered a hostile workplace. To do this to students, who have no recourse, and no way out except to leave the team is inexcusable.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

How do you teach atheism? How do you teach lack of belief?
I say get the Christians and every other religious denomination out of schools. Those who want to send their children to religious schools can do so if they fund the whole kit and kaboodle by themselves. No vouchers, no tax deductions, no tax money.
And all religious schools must follow the curriculum as decided by the state. In other words, no fairy stories passed around as science.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

ninamarie - in my mind you don't. It's usually something individually arrived at after holding and discarding other "isms".

Default position? Maybe. But others would argue Christianity is the default position.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

If churches continue to prepare meals and the school does not transport the players to the church, does anyone here object?

You seem to be deliberatly missing the point Nik. 100+ posts and you still are playing this game.

Schools should not be sponsoring religious exercises at school functions. This includes providing transportation, approving and in some cases demanding the attendance of students at religious events. If they are, they are violating the law. The penatly for knowingly ignoring the regulations and guidelines that allow them to accept public money should be the immediate cesation of funding until they correct these violations and they should return any funds that were used for any religiously affiliated event.

The role and mandate of the public school is not to educate children in a specific religion or any religion. Period. Taxpayer money should go to institutions that follow the law not those that make their own.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

How they get there is totally irrelevant in my view. Religion at a school function , no matter where held, no matter how they get there, is inappropriate.

Having said that, I would have no issue with the kids being fed in a Church Hall as long as there was no religion interjected. Heck we used to go to Church suppers all the time , it was a community event not a religious event.

Now why is it that I feel Nik has an angle going here....that there is a gotcha somewhere in the mix. Like I've said before just 'cause you're paranoid doesn't mean someone isn't out to get you ;)


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

If churches continue to prepare meals and the school does not transport the players to the church, does anyone here object?

Nancy wrote: "It was never a simple question of having meals at churches. From the complaint by the FFRF:

-Holding pre-game meals at a local church, where a "preacher sermonizes to the players about the Christian religion.""

That is why I asked the question this way, in my OP:

"I can see where some people might object to using school transportation to take the students to the church location. But if students or families provide the transportation, does the group still have an argument?"

Some people still object the the meal. No one has explained what laws would be violated, who the "violators" are, or what authority prevents individual team members from accepting a church dinner invitation prior to a game if they want to.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Nik, I think it is very simple. It is a school event, sponsored by the school, an extension of the school, it is not a private event.

The issue is not feeding the kids.....I suspect no one objects to the meal. It is using the meal to promote a religious biases at a school event that is the issue.

You're a very smart lady, I know you get it.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

A troll indeed.

1) Most of your questions have been answered on this and other threads.

2) There are plenty of religious insitutions that host secular events in their facilities. The building was not the problem. Neither was the meal. The program content of the dinner was. But you know that.

3) Read the complaint. It is beyond a simple dinner being held in a church. But again, you knew that too. Read the laws that they are accused of violating. Then put the pieces together. There are your answers.

You are too old to be handfed and continue to play these childish games.

Again, many have answered these questions and have tried to educate you on here and other similar threads. It has grown old and is a known exercise in futility. If you don't understand by now that is your problem.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Nik, the issue is not the transportation, nor the meals - it's the proselytizing that accompanies the food. I endorse epi's three points for basic comprehension of the issue.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

"Nik, I think it is very simple. It is a school event, sponsored by the school, an extension of the school, it is not a private event."

If attendance is required and the school transports the players, I understand your argument.

If attendance is voluntary and transportation is up to individual players, what "sponsorship" role has the school played?




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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

"If attendance is voluntary and transportation is up to individual players"

And exactly how and by whom is that invitation passed on to the students? By the coach at school? Or do we take things to the ultra extreme and say that the church calls only CERTAIN players, after school, to invite them to a PRIVATE event that has NOTHING to do with the upcoming football game?

It's a school event for goodness sake! If they were not on a school football team and it was not a pre game meal would it even happen?


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

"It's the economy proselytizing, stupid dear heart."


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

"And exactly how and by whom is that invitation passed on to the students?"

Do we know how the information was shared up to now? Not that it matters. I can think of lots of ways to do it, can't you? Host church puts info on church webpage, makes announcement at church, puts it in the church bulletin and on the calendar. Team members who attend the church pass it on with player to player conversations, emails, text messages, phone calls. Sign up sheets at dinner for those who want a reminder of the next event. Outdoor church reader boards. WalMart bulletin board. Word gets out without the school, no problem.


Back to voluntary attendance and private transportation. Game is school sponsored, meal at church is not. Any objections? If so, what violations do you see?


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Come on NIk. I know you can come up with something better than that, why I've seen you do so in the past! Unless you are left with grasping for straws now?

It's your thread, you started it, you're name is on it, you are stuck with the results.


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They still don't get it

  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Mon, Sep 10, 12 at 12:35

Hundreds came together in prayer Friday night at Haralson County High School after the district banned school sanctioned prayer after the threat of a lawsuit from Wisconsin-based organization.....

"We're going to say the Lord's Prayer in unity, as one. Not one preacher or one individual who believes in God standing up there, but in unity - all of us," said Bush.

Will they be using the prayers, chants, incantations, etc from the other religions represented by students in their school?

church dinners

Here is a link that might be useful: Haralson County High School


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Gee, and now the Chicago public school kids are being exposed to religion, too--during school hours.

Any port in a storm, I guess:

Chicago teachers strike for first time in 25 years
by Judy Keen, USA TODAY

"Chicago Public Schools kept 144 schools open from 8:30 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. for activities and meals, 59 churches that operate as havens were open to students. Parks and 76 public libraries offered activities. There are almost 400,000 students in the system."


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

  • Posted by sweeby Gulf Coast TX (My Page) on
    Mon, Sep 10, 12 at 19:13

Don't suppose the schools punished the students who didn't go to church, now did they?


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Mon, Sep 10, 12 at 19:37

Apples and oranges

We are not religious, yet my children and now grandchildren have attended preschool at a nearby church. We are not Catholic, but my son attended a Catholic High School, we knew exactly what was taught, and what expectations were.

I imagine the children who are going to one of the churches operating as a haven have their parents permission to be there.

I don't think it was a teambuilding activity, and I doubt children were bullied into attending these programs.

It sounds like the Chicago community stepped up and rallied around it's children to provide safe, appropriate activities for 400,000 children. A daunting task to say the least.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Elvis, you don't seem to understand the op if you equate this. This is an emergency. This isn't a calculated tactic by the school system or individuals to circumvent or ignore the rules and force children to participate in religion.

The community came up with different options. They key here is choice. Parents can choose a religious or non-religious facility until this crisis is resolved. And if they choose a religious venue then it seems that with 59 churches participating then they can pick the denomination or church they are most comfortable with.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

I'm of the belief that this is a parent's job, not some athiests. Who the heck gives them the right to say where my kid should be and what they should be listening to? It is absolutely none of their business, but to keep their hate going they have to look for ways to get their word out I suppose.

Did a student complain? If they did, it is between them, their parents and the coach, not the athiests putting their nose where it does not belong. Some make it sound like they were "forced to listen to prayer" and let's face it, listening to a prayer could kill ya for sure. LOL This is another example of over the top foolishness by God non believers.

When I was in school I wasn't allowed to leave the premises of the school without the teacher receiving written permission from my parents. I think this is the responsible thing for any school teacher to do if he/she intends on taking kids to another location for a specified purpose. What is this teacher thinking? What about liability in case of a motor vehicle accident? He should not have been bringing them to eat at a church where scripture is read, etc. Saying a prayer before a game is perfectly fine and I don't really think a student who is an athiest or non Christian would have a problem with that. It's mostly adults who are objecting to prayer, not the kids.

Athiests keep jumping in where they are not wanted or needed. If this was a problem for someone, the coach, student or parents, then they are the ones who should be involved in the discussion, not an athiest group. Good Lord, this is so ridiculous. I have to ask myself, do these people have a real job?


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

I can't help but think that if this had been a local mosque instead of a church, people would be whistling a different tune.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Interesting how important freedom to express ones belief in God is so important ...unless of course you want to build a mosque in TN.

.....but then again I forgot these folk know the real God.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Posted by epiphyticlvr 10 (My Page) on Mon, Sep 10, 12 at 20:16

"Elvis, you don't seem to understand the op if you equate this. This is an emergency. This isn't a calculated tactic by the school system or individuals to circumvent or ignore the rules and force children to participate in religion."

Sure I understand. Like I said above, "any port in a storm, I guess."


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Interesting how important freedom to express ones belief in God is so important ...unless of course you want to build a mosque in TN.

.....but then again I forgot these folk know the real God.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Sure I understand. Like I said above, "any port in a storm, I guess."

Wrong guess. You clearly don't understand.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

Your way or the highway, ay Epi? That's fine.


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RE: Atheists oppose churches feeding HS team

No Elvis. It isn't my way. It is the American way. The Supreme Court said so. I don't make the rules. Neither do you.


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