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Don't let facts get in the way

Posted by esh_ga z7 GA (My Page) on
Tue, Aug 28, 12 at 13:16

I love this:

TAMPA, Fla. -- The Romney campaign said on Tuesday that its ads attacking President Obama's waiver policy on welfare have been its most effective to date. And while the spots have been roundly criticized as lacking any factual basis, the campaign said it didn't really care.

"We're not going to let our campaign be dictated by fact-checkers," Romney pollster Neil Newhouse said at a panel organized by ABC News.

This is a different standard than the one Romney himself has held up for the election-season ad wars. Reacting to attacks by a pro-Obama super PAC, Romney recently told a radio station that "in the past, when people pointed out that something was inaccurate, why, campaigns pulled the ad."

If this is the way he runs his campaign, how does he plan to run his presidency? (snicker)


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

As I've said before, who needs facts... when supposition and rumors, fallacies, lies, and opinion are much juicier and sell better within a corporatist media propaganda machine?


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

I swear this campaign has my BP through the roof. The one thing I hold near and dear is the truth. I hate it when people, especially politicians, tell lies.

To feel that you are so lacking that you cannot win by just telling the truth is very sad. To be so cavalier and unembarrassed about is simply astonishing.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

"We're not going to let our campaign be dictated by fact-checkers"

Here's another bumper-sticker slogan for vgkg!

Etch-a-sketch was the warm up for full bore negative campaigning.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

And, when called on this as saying they won't let facts dictate what they will say in this campaign, they'll say, "We didn't say that." Of course they didn't say those exact words. But, that's exactly what they meant - how else could it be interpreted. Taken literally, they said, that the person who checks facts won't dictate their campaign. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Reminds me of what some posters on HT say, when called out for something they posted.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

The campaign is being run by a group of very effective advertising firms, and they know they have a winner with this lie.

It is sort of amazing. When voters are confronted with the fact that its a complete fabrication, they respond that they 'trust that Romney wouldn't lie'.

Obama will demolish this in a debate, pointing out that Romney asked for the same waiver when he was governor. He does have a TV ad out now, but it isn't getting anywhere near the play of the one with the lie. Money buys those time slots.


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Oh, the disappointment to come... if Romney does somehow manage to lie and cheat his way to the White House, what a disappointment for all those showing off Romney bumper stickers, when they find out they actually did vote against their own best interests.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Neil's polling firm...POS.

-Ron-


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Reminds me of what some posters on HT say, when called out for something they posted.

I was thinking the same thing! I guess that's why they like Romney? He thinks like they do.

Lying politicians is nothing new. Been happening for as long as I've been following. But, the level of the lie does seem to have grown. And what upsets me more than the lie (which is upsetting enough) is that PEOPLE FALL FOR IT! What the heck ever happened to thinking? A lost art, apparently. At least among a certain percentage of the population.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

It isn't necessarily that "people fall for it." In several cases, the politicians have come right out and honestly stated what they are really up to (i.e., voter ID laws will help us suppress the Democratic vote and help our candidate to win--announced on TV by the Pennsylvania official--can't remember--wasn't it the governor or campaign manager?). What shocked me was that it didn't even create a slight ripple among their supporters who barely even noticed the politician admitted up front what he was doing.

They just don't care--as long as Obama is defeated and the Republicans take over most of the other positions. THEY JUST DON'T CARE even when their politicians publically admit to dirty tricks and other shenanigans, including out and out lying.

Kate


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Kate, it was the head of the house of Representatives, Mike Turzai who said photo ID would win PA for Romney. The GOP is the crookedest bunch ever to come down the pike. They lie, they cheat, they do it anyway they can. I say it's time for some Dem's dirty tricks. Play fire with fire. If Romney wins, then the people will wake up the next day and see that they've ruined the country yet AGAIN by voting republican. Then live with it.


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To be sure, the 'repealed the work requirement for welfare' is one heckuva dog whistle.


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I am 100% certain that if a candidate I supported lied the way Romney does, I would be physically incapable of voting for him. I would not be able to pull that lever. We know that there are the idiots who actually believe the lies, but the others who continue supporting him in spite of knowing the truth are as unethical as he is.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

the 'repealed the work requirement for welfare' is one heckuva dog whistle

They're retuning the dog whistles that Sarah Palin used in 2008 against candidate Barack Obama. Evidently they think they need something stronger than "he's not like us."


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

All politician lie, we have learned to accept that fact. But there is usually grey area lies. Not out and out lie and a lie using what they think will bring out the problem racial crowd of their party.

Romney has repeated the lie several times in his stump speech with such effective belief is the frightening part. Again, I go back to my roots my Mom said a lier is the worst person on earth. If we told a lie and she found out you were very sorry it ever past your lips.

I see that honor in honesty is a plus and not part of a lot of peoples' character. They gravitate to the lier it is very much like the Whore topic we have going. What can they do they never had that character taught or demonstrated in the home.

I could be wrong I have been wrong before but I think this is the very reason Romney will lose. I have a lot of faith that most people do not want a President with this character trait.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

In civilized society, lying is not a character trait...it's a huge character flaw. He has no principles and so it's just not a problem for him.

What I don't understand....does Mormon faith condone lying is is Romney just a really bad Mormon?


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Here's the whole quote:

"Fact checkers come to this with their own sets of thoughts and beliefs, and we're not going to let our campaign be dictated by fact checkers," he said. The fact-checkers, whose institutional rise has been a feature of the cycle, have "jumped the shark," he added after the panel."


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Nice spin: Facts are thoughts and beliefs - in other words, subjective. So if you say that my facts are in question, that's just a subjective call and has nothing to do with the fact that I've taken a comment out of context / misappropriated a quote / turned truth on its head. Amazing!

I don't think most are buying that interpretation.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

If you're addressing my post, nancy, all I can say is: "whatever".

My source is as listed below (Angry Black Lady); I'm quoting a quote. Not original material. Not a "Nice spin". Perhaps this site is not a place your crowd ever visits. One of my personal favorites.

by Imani Gandy (ABL)
Romney Campaign Keeps Lying About Welfare and Flips Fact Checkers the Bird
August 28, 2012 in Election 2012, Mitt Romney the Liar, Now That's Some Racist Bullsh*t


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here you go elvis


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

A FOOL IS A TOOL!!! USE IT... PUT IT AWAY UNTIL IT NEEDS TO BE USED AGAIN.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Reactionaries know what they're told to think. Don't confuse them with actual facts.

In this case, they've been told that facts don't matter. Fact-checking is old-fashioned, over-the-hill, jumped-the-shark. They don't deal in facts any longer. They just make it up as they go along.

Understand?

-Ron-


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Look at your President " The liar in chief " himself.
Stop the BS people..you cannot stand a strong, successful,ambitious,man for President ,that is why you voted for Obama the first time around.


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"Strong" is not how I'd describe Mitt Romney. "Ambitious" is absolutely true. "Successful" is true, but on the backs of others - which is not a quality that I admire.


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And the spin continues! I knew there was more to the quote than meets the eye.

But another way to look at it is:

"he's a friggin' politician, for God's sake; get a grip." Marshallz, Aug. 11, 2012 referring to Obama and lying.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

As has been noted more than once on this forum, Romney and the Republicans aren't at all embarrassed or ashamed of being caught playing fast and loose with the fact--or even ignoring the facts. To them, it is all a game--or who is most skilled at juggling the facts. They admit it openly--as our posters did above.

I do not understand that attitude--that all that matters is winning the game.

Kate


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Kate, It's the political equivalent of holding a kid down and cutting off his hair.


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If Obama put out a message on an ad that was widely considered to be a lie and was called on it - I'd expect him to pull it. Not double down on it.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

As has been noted more than once on this forum, Romney and the Republicans aren't at all embarrassed or ashamed of being caught playing fast and loose with the fact--or even ignoring the facts. To them, it is all a game--or who is most skilled at juggling the facts. They admit it openly--as our posters did above.
I do not understand that attitude--that all that matters is winning the game.

"Got a mirror?" Labrea Aug. 2012


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

I'd expect him to pull it.

You're expectations are much too high!


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Yeah, that's why I'm not voting for Romney. My expectations are too high.


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"Hope springs eternal!"


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"Hope and Change!"


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"My husband will lift up America!"


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Beats dragging it down.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Sounds just like another 'hope' message - guess you think this one has a better chance than the last one?


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Yes, I think this one has a better chance than the last one.

We at least now know Obama's true definition of "Hope and Change."


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

It's obvious that the Republican Party and its candidates will not stop lying until its base understands that lying is wrong.
And judging by all the conservatives posting in support of Romney and his campaign, which they know to be unfactual, the Republican Party is pandering to the lowest common denominator : those whose morals and ethics depend upon which side they are on.
Spin this the way you want to. But you are the reason that the Republican Party stoops so very, very low.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

I'm sorry you didn't learn from 2010, demi. The people that ran on a jobs platform came in and stalled every jobs proposal that was made. They made up a bunch of their own that had nothing to do with job creation - only with raping the environment and the workers.

They didn't do what they said they would do in 2010. I don't expect 2012 to be any better.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Posted by ninamarie 4Ont. (My Page) on
Wed, Aug 29, 12 at 9:53

It's obvious that the Republican Party and its candidates will not stop lying until its base understands that lying is wrong.
And judging by all the conservatives posting in support of Romney and his campaign, which they know to be unfactual, the Republican Party is pandering to the lowest common denominator : those whose morals and ethics depend upon which side they are on.
Spin this the way you want to. But you are the reason that the Republican Party stoops so very, very low.

*

More personal insults (read the forum rules, ninamarie)--yet so predictable and so sophomoric.

Sounds like someone watches too much msnbc!

That's all that's in the arsenal, folks!


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Oh, I know people didn't do what they said they would do in 2010.

I don't know that Romney can or will.

But I know one thing--Obama sure as heck didn't do what he said he would do and this country is HURTING because of it.

As I've said, I don't think anyone we have had to choose from could do much worse.

I think it's time to change horses--this inexperienced and arrogant one is about to drown us.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

How about the fact that turning around a sinking ship with half the crew not helping may not be possible in 3 years?

I happen to think Obama accomplished a lot. The country was in very bad shape - turning it completely around was not possible and he should not have promised otherwise. But that doesn't mean that he didn't do a good job so far.

Inexperienced? How about obstructed?


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Nope--he wasn't obstructed.
Presidents have always had to deal with opposing parties.
He was President and had both the House and the Senate for the majority of the time since he took office.

He chose to make himself a legacy with "Obamacare", the 2400 page behemoth with more taxes that we haven't begun to see, a monster of legislation that as Nancy Pelosi, then speaker of the House of Representatives said, "We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it."

THAT is what Obama chose to do instead of working on the economy and getting people back to work.

OBAMA chose to do the only things he knows how to do--take from people that have and use it to prop up everything else.
GOVERNMENT is the answer for Obama, not personal responsibility or hard work or tough decisions.

Obama had little to no experience in actually accomplishing much in a tangible manner, but was adept at speaking inspiring but nebulous words, criticism of success, class warfare and more taxes to solve any and every problem in this country.

He didn't totally blow it.

He just didn't turn us around at a pivotal point in our history, which was what he said he would do.

Obama and his supporters are talking about birth control and making successful people "pay more" and promoting class warfare while this country is about to become another Greece.

Nope--I didn't think he deserved the chance to begin with, but after he was elected was willing to give him a second chance if he made things better.

He didn't.
In my opinion, he has set this country on a path from which we may never recover if he is reelected. I don't think he's even got a CLUE what he's done, or NOT done.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Do we seriously need another lesson in what constitutes a vetted fact, and how it differs from an opinion or piece of misinformation?


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Obamacare wasn't the only thing he worked on. It didn't distract him from doing other things.

People are going back to work. We are no longer losing jobs like we were when he took office. We are gaining jobs. He turned us around. It is the rate that you disagree with. And economists the world over agree this was a historically bad moment in the US and world economy. Do you acknowledge this? That it was likely not possible to be all roses this point in time given what happened and continued to happen?

Yes, he said he would do it, but it was far worse than expected - than he knew. Bad, bad on him. No doubt. How dare he underestimate the severity of the economic situation and be overly optimistic on how the elected congressmen and women might pull together to help the country!

Yes, Presidents always have to deal with opposing parties. And the fact that the opposing party chose not to help in this pivotal point in our history says a lot about how they intend to run the country.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

THAT is what Obama chose to do instead of working on the economy and getting people back to work.

Demi this is a another one of those Parrot talking points that have been feed to those that choose to not check. I know ordinary people really cannot understand how people can accomplish more than one issue at a time. If your parrot point was true this country would not be on a return to health.
House of Representatives said, "We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it." Polly want a cracker...
How our Representatives did not know what was in the bill when it was worked on for a year is a mystery to me to this day. How can people say that and think of how they handle their everyday life should fall for that talking point. When you buy a house do you read the contract? Are you illiterate? Do you think we have elected illiterate representatives? The Bill was not locked in a vault. Every one of them had a copy. READ IT DARN IT!!! That is what they were elected to do.

Many (President Obama) detractors, and even some of his wavering supporters, will be surprised to learn that in his first year, Barack Obama has already fulfilled at least 79 campaign promises. This is one of the most accomplished records of any first year in office, and it has come with considerable difficulty in working with and around a Congress fraught with obstructionism and distracted by its own mythology regarding specific points of policy, and in the face of the most uniform and inflexible opposition any president in recent decades has faced.

Here is a link that might be useful: President Obama's 1st year


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Oh but Marquest they know all that.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

"Sounds like someone watches too much msnbc!"
Does it? That's curious, because we don't have television reception. We have not watched tv for over 10 years and have not received signals from American stations in over 3o years. I don't believe that I have ever seen msnbc. In fact, I'm so out of things, I don't even know what msnbc stands for, though I assume it is a televison station.
I did not name anyone demi, yet you called me "predictable and sophmoric." Would you find that insulting if I said it about you?
It is easier to dismiss ideas rather than think about them.
But if Republicans don't hold their party to the high standards they claim to honour, how and when will politics change?
You don't like the Democrats, and I understand that. But if you support representatives of the Republican Party who emulate the worst of the Democrats, aren't you supporting the qualities you hate? Aren't you then supporting lies and corruption. And aren't you allowing the party you hate to set the standard?
By the way, I am not a Democrat. I am not a Republican. And in Canada, where I vote, I vote for whatever party I believe best represents my interests. I do not and could not ever belong to a party. I do not and never could support any one party every election.
I cannot understand those who identify so strongly with a party that they become personally insulted when someone rightfully calls that party on wrongdoing.
I am a human being, not a political party, and I would never give my mind, soul, heart or any part of my valuable person over to someone else's keeping.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Your INSULTS ARE predictable and sophomoric.

And a long string of them--I remember the first one you made to me.


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Oh but Marquest they know all that.

I do not understand if they know why they let someone tell them they do not know and become someone's pet parrot.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Marquest, what is with the "fed talking points" bit?

I KNOW for a fact that what I said is true--that Barack Obama CHOSE to concentrate on Obamacare (and of course, there is nothing wrong with wanting everyone to have health care--but have you looked at the taxes that are coming, the burdens, the changes in our health care system and say that there isn't more pain coming--and WHO IS GOING TO PAY FOR IT?) instead of fixing the economy and getting Americans back to work.

Why the taunting with "polly want a cracker?"

THAT accusation itself is reminiscent of a parrot.

I don't need to turn on the television to know that Obama has not lived up to his promises and not done as good as job as even Hillary Clinton would have done.

Heck, I don't even need to read a newspaper or log in on the internet.

I only need to look at my community and the people I know that can't find work.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Demi Where do you get these facts?


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Contracts to buy previously owned homes rose to their highest level in more than two years in July, an industry group said on Wednesday, suggesting the housing market recovery was gaining traction.

The National Association of Realtors said its Pending Home Sales Index, based on contracts signed in July, increased 2.4 percent to 101.7 - the highest level since April 2010 and shortly before the deadline for the home buyer tax credit.

And unemployment is UP - because people are ready to look for jobs again. And they are ready to look because there are jobs to be had.

The Commerce Department reported Wednesday that it had revised slightly upward its initial estimate for second quarter gross domestic product to a rate of 1.7 percent from 1.5 percent. The first quarter's pace remained at 2.0 percent.

The government report attributed the increase to exports and personal spending which offset sluggish state and local government spending and slow restocking of inventories by businesses wary of the economic environment at home and overseas.

The report also showed that after-tax corporate profits unexpectedly rose at 1.1 percent rate after sinking 8.6 percent in the first quarter.

Corporate profits are UP.


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I do not understand if they know why they let someone tell them they do not know and become someone's pet parrot.

I refuse to believe that there are that many simple minded gullible people out there in the US. The vast majority of the moron demographic know better. But they lie anyway. JUST like Romney.

Liars by proxy. Birds of a feather.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

I can't believe I have to repeat this FACT for the umpteenth time on this forum.

Demi is perpetuating the myth that Obama could have done whatever he wanted the first couple years of his tenure.

WRONG.

You "forget" (or whatever) that the Democratic Senators had to deal with the SUPERMAJORITY problem. That is the "obstruction" that is being referred to--the Republicans announcing publically their "just say NO" policy--and then demanding a 60% majority before the Democrats could do anything--on nearly everything the Democrats tried to do. A 60% majority is almost impossible to get on a regular basis, and the Republicans knew it. That is why they dragged out the filibuster even on routine items--chances are it wouldn't pass if it needs a 60% supermajority.

So let's dispense with the myth that Obama and the Democrats could have done anything they wished the first couple years. As long as the filibuster exists, that is FALSE!

Kate


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Excuses.

A talented president would have found a way to work with other lawmakers.

Bill Clinton did.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Fine, believe what you want. The Republicans voiced loud and clear that they intended to make life as difficult as possible for him - that they never intended to work with him.

That information is on record.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

That's because they believed that he would hurt the country with the methods by which he said he wanted to "improve it."

Obamacare is a perfect example--by the fact that it is far from perfect--the intent is good, but the result is and will be disastrous.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

over, and over I ask....

Why did the Republicans say they did not know what was in the bill. All I have come up for this one is they are illiterate and the supporters of this talking point can relate not being able to read. Because they have the same problem.

Why do they keep saying he only tried to pass the Health Care Bill and did nothing to help the unemployment. several bills were passed to address this

He is making the country worst. the private sector jobs have increased every month. Has offered a Jobs bill for the House and Senate to develop but it has not been put in place. They did manage to try to pass bills of NO Abortion for women that have been raped, or her life is in danger. There was about 94 of those women issue bills.

All parrot talking points They hear it repeat, repeat, repeat.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

That's because they believed that he would hurt the country with the methods by which he said he wanted to "improve it."

They were offered many opportunities, especially early on, to work with the President to shape legislation to be what they believed in as well. They refused to participate for fear of Obama having any success.

They refused to help the American people with whatever power they had. They preferred to see the American people get laws that they disagreed with rather than meet halfway.

Shameful.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Gee, demi, what I remember is you throwing a fit when I told you that the province of Ontario is larger than you thought you knew.
But you are right. I will no longer attempt to engage you in a respectful manner because you are incapable of thinking for yourself.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Posted by ninamarie 4Ont. (My Page) on
Wed, Aug 29, 12 at 13:37

Gee, demi, what I remember is you throwing a fit when I told you that the province of Ontario is larger than you thought you knew.
But you are right. I will no longer attempt to engage you in a respectful manner because you are incapable of thinking for yourself.

*

Another insult, with no basis--of course I am capable of thinking for myself. What a stupid and hateful insult with no basis in fact.

What you said was, and there was NO BASIS for you to make any assumption about what I thought, was a comment that Ontario was larger than what I thought it was.

I never said what I thought it was. You were just making assumptions that I had never even been there and did not know anything about Canada, much less Ontario.

A childish attempt to insult someone, territorial, and dead wrong.

Why you felt it necessary to even make that comment I don't know. It didn't add anything to what we were talking about and was just an attempt at a dig at portraying me as some stupid person that hadn't traveled and didn't know anything about where you lived.

You know what they say about assumptions, ninamarie.

It tells much more about the person making those types of assumptions, especially in a public forum.


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Demi, I'm glad to hear that you were wise enough to vote and support Clinton. Sadly, at that time I did not and joined the ranks of those who really hated him.

He left the country better off than we have been since shortly after WWII. How blinded I was by his terrible behavior (for which he was rightly held accountable by the people) without bothering to see his actual accomplishments. I'm glad to hear that you were much wiser than was I.

However, in that post of yours about the President, you used that word "arrogant" again.

I kept waiting to read "shove down our throats" which so often has followed the word "arrogant" by some conservatives in threads here in H.T.

It bothers me, harkens back to the days of the good ole' very deep south - a place I've lived for YEARS, as have you - where whites got angry when that arrogant uppity ...... confronted them or, God forbid, managed to accomplish much more in his personal education, life, and success than did they. Good lord, even his wife did exactly the same!

Thank goodness the deep south has left all that poor attitude and behavior behind them, 'eh.

What the white folks had previously kept insisting they should do if they didn't like their position in life, they ended up being arrogant for accomplishing.

I would have thought that people everywhere, but especially the south, especially the DEEP south, would understand the power of the word "arrogant" when used against President Obama, a man with black skin.

That you will perhaps insist it's simply a word in the English language, one which is commonly and widely used with nary a black person in sight - and I must just get over myself, is of not consequence to me.

If, in fact, you don't insist anything of that nature, then I do apologize for my quick, unfair and erroneous assumption.

I could have taken all you said, much of what was probably interesting (with some truth to it) much more seriously if you had only restrained yourself with that word, "arrogant" in connection with our black skinned President.

On the use of this word in this context, I feel the need to take issue.

I do not think that you, personally, are a racist of any sort, I mean that sincerely. I would go so far as to state that it's my opinion that if anyone here does think of you as racist, it's because they want to, not because you have ever said anything to indicate anything racist in your nature, never that I have read.

However, I think you know the power of words and use them with precision when needed to win a point in H.T.

But of course, don't we all, myself especially.

On the particular use of this word in the context used, I felt the need to take issue.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Glen Beck is arrogant.
Alec Baldwin is arrogant.
Obama is arrogant.

by Brian Risman, Publisher and Founder, The Law Journal UK and Consultant in International Law

For Reader's Comments on this article, Click Here, or scroll to the end of the article.

Western Civilisation is experiencing a Pandemic -- a Pandemic of the Arrogance of Political Leadership, no matter what country, or political ideology. This arrogance results in the disillusionment and disgust of the populations of these countries. This situation is very dangerous to civilisation, for there are too many precedents of the fall of societies simply because the populace no longer believed in them, or their value. Until the political classes realise they -- and not others -- are the problem, the malaise of society will continue.

What is arrogance in leadership?

We see a great deal of arrogance, not just here in the United Kingdom, but in nations worldwide.

It would seem that the political classes of the nations, even ostensibly democratic ones, are suffering from a pandemic of hubris.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

CW, in reading, you missed one very important word in my post.

Context.

It's all important to the point.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

OMG, mylab, I can't believe you just wrote that.

WHEN are people going to stop thinking about race all the time?

Arrogant is arrogant.

No more, no less.

The man's race has nothing to do with how he does his job or how I view him.

I am just floored.

Talk about looking under rocks--are there liberals that honestly DO NOT think about the color of someone's skin all the time?


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Oh but if that first statement were true, what strides and accomplishments we would have gained, my deeply southern forum mate!

Oh, but if that later statement were true, the world would have truly turned upside down and those pigs Palin so loved to refer to would really be applying that lipstick she mentioned.

We can't fix that which we can't even recognize or acknowledge and racism is something that must be finally acknowledged in all it's various and arrogant forms, and then fixed.

It's not a problem to place on liberals, it's a problem that must be placed upon the people in this country. You know this, Demi.

Please don't be disingenious because you were called on your particular, pinpoint use of the word "arrogant" in the context with which you used it. It is not becoming of one of your intelligence.

Have at me and this subject, I made my point with you and am now done with the debate, of it's disregarded worthiness or accuracy.

We are two deeply southern women, we both know exactly what's up now with this discussion. So does everyone else reading this forum.

Have at it, I'm done with it.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

I am deeply offended and still shocked.

SOme of us have long ago moved past the racial divides of the 50s and 60s and early 70s.

I'm one of them.

I'm sorry you think I'm still thinking like you do.

I'm not about to start walking on eggshells with every word I type and consider that someone is just waiting to take an innocent comment and word and twist it an ugly and unsubstantiated charge, even in the form of a question.

There is no need when you are innocent.

Excuse me, I am sick to my stomach mylab.

I am sad for you that you think this way, and particularly that you even brought this up.

Regardless of our differences, I have never been so sad, not even mad, just sad that someone posted this about me.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

A new Akin/McCaskill 'poll' was released:

A new poll commissioned by conservative advocacy group Family Research Council offers embattled Rep. Todd Akin (R-Mo.) quantitative support for him to stay in the race, as it shows him slightly ahead of incumbent Sen. Claire McCaskill.

The new numbers are a stark shift from two polls released last week, both of which showed him far behind McCaskill, in one case by double digits. But the new poll gives him a three-percentage-point lead over McCaskill, with 45 percent support to her 42 percent.

The Family Research Council won't let facts get in the way, that's for sure.

Republican Facts = Propaganda

-Ron-


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

I lied!

*ROTFLMAO*!!

What a great "having the last word" you posted Demi!

Now, THIS is more like you! You got in all your favorites, I commend you - it was perfectly worded and excuted. Congratulations, you have my complete admiration!

Now, please do feel easy in knowing I really DO have to be outta here, places to go, things to do! So if you want to create another simply exquisite "last word" then please know that you will be able to do so with no quick response or rebuttal from me! Heck, if it's really good, I will probably let it stand, unremarked!

*Good* job, Demi, and very well done!
:)


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

It's obvious you have a personal vendetta against me, mylab, and that's why you post about me, making veiled or specific charges of racism and other character slights.

Why, I have no idea.

I've never speculated about your character in this regard and I don't come here to insult you, but to post about topics and sometimes exchange banter and pleasantries.

It is obvious that you are making up anything you can conjure and grasping at anything you can to attempt to disparage and falsely accuse me, and with the last little taunting "cute" diatribe about "good job" you truly gave yourself away.

I truly hope you did have something better to do, because "better" certainly isn't a character trait in any of this little side trip you tried to pull me into and exposed others to.

What you tried to start with me--the content of your posts specifically to me--are pathetic, accusatory, personally insulting, mean spirited and just wrong, and certainly not the purpose of this forum.

But your little exercise obviously served some personal purpose for you.

That is indeed an unfortunate truth.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Obamacare is a perfect example--by the fact that it is far from perfect--the intent is good, but the result is and will be disastrous.
Demi...
What disastrous results will the Affordable Health Care cause?


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

I made the mistake of trying to engage the resident troll.
I apologize to the sensible and intelligent members of this forum.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Stop it ninamarie.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

ninamarie, you don't have to take orders from anyone on this forum. But you know that, don't you. : )

I really enjoy your posts, mylab. Spirited and on point.

Kate


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Not when they're personal insults and false speculation about a person, and hateful insinuations and then taunting, Kate.

But perhaps you enjoy those kinds of posts from mylab, too.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Whatever.

Kate


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Umm hmm.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

"Not when they're personal insults and false speculation about a person, and hateful insinuations and then taunting"

Agreed Demi, and I admire Jodi for the way she handles it.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Since President Obama was born and grew up, more or less, in Hawaii... and we all know he is of mixed heritage, why do we refer to him as a black man? Why don't we refer to him as Hawaiian, or American?

Why is it any time a darker skinned person marries and reproduces with a Caucasian, that offspring is always referred to by whichever heritage the darker skin carries?

It's a legitimate question that begs an answer.

I clearly recall being called a liar and some other pretty harsh words by a poster whose former name is no longer seen in use when I revealed the fact that I, myself, come from two very different racial backgrounds. Just because my skin is light means... what, exactly?

I think Mylab's words were on point. Racism is very much alive and well today, and not only in one area of our nation, but in many.

Chase, I've learned to ignore that which perpetuates the same old message board games that are played most everywhere like clockwork. It's as simple as scrolling past those names that I know only bring the same games time and again... and stopping to read the posts written by those who have something worthy to offer the conversation.

At first, some games seem sort of fun... but they do become tedious when played over and over and over, ending in the same manner... it's just not worth the time or effort.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

On the heels of the RNC here's this week's accounting of Mitt's lies:


Chronicling Mitt's Mendacity, Vol. XXXII

By Steve Benen

-

Fri Aug 31, 2012

Jon Chait noted the other day that Mitt Romney "has built his entire campaign on, well, lies." Jon made the observation in passing, but it struck me as significant, especially as the Republican National Convention unfolded -- Romney isn't the first national politician to try to deceive the public, but he's arguably the first to build his entire campaign around the deceptions.

Kevin Drum was thinking along the same lines responding to Romney's lie on welfare policy, which the candidate has vowed to continue repeating, even after it's been proven false.

In the past, you felt that maybe campaigns were at least a little bit embarrassed about this kind of thing. They'd blame it on someone else. They'd try to produce some lame defense. They'd haul out some fake white paper to give themselves cover. They'd do something. The Romney campaign just doesn't seem to care. If it works, they use it. It's like the campaign is being run by cyborgs.
Thomas Mann, a longtime political scholar at the center-left Brookings Institution and a respected Beltway voice, added, "The Romney campaign has, as is strikingly evident at the Tampa convention, broken new ground in its brazen and cynical disregard for the truth."

Love Romney or hate him, it's an experiment of sorts -- we're seeing the first real-world test of a post-truth campaign. Team Romney lies, without shame, because it's certain the line between fact and fiction has been blurred out of existence, and if lies will give Romney vast power, the ends justify the means.

But for those who still like to think reality has some meaning, I hope they'll take some time to consider the 32nd installment of my weekly series, chronicling Mitt's mendacity. (For the record, this week, I'm only including falsehoods from Romney himself. Including every lie told at the convention would have caused a mendacity overdose.)

1. In Romney's acceptance speech last night, he said, "Four years ago, I know that many Americans felt a fresh excitement about the possibilities of a new president. That president was not the choice of our party but Americans always come together after elections."

Actually, congressional Republicans decided early on that they would refuse to come together and work with President Obama, no matter what he offered in terms of policies. This began before Inauguration Day, when GOP leaders decided they simply would not cooperate or compromise with Democrats.

2. Romney added that Obama "took office without the basic qualification that most Americans have and one that was essential to his task. He had almost no experience working in a business."

First, the president has experience working in business. Second, lots of successful presidents didn't come from the private sector (and lots of lousy presidents were businessmen). And third, it's obvious that Romney doesn't believe his own rhetoric, because if he did, he wouldn't have picked Paul Ryan as his running mate -- Ryan has far less private-sector experience than Obama.

3. Romney went on to say, "[T]he centerpiece of the President's entire re-election campaign is attacking success."

For one thing, Romney has never been able to point to a single instance in which Obama has attacked success. For another, we're having a hell of a lot more success now than we were four years ago.

4. Romney added, "[T]his president cannot tell us that you are better off today than when he took office."

Of course he can. I'm not sure who Romney is referring to you with "you," but for Americans, economic growth, job creation, the stock market, the auto industry, the deficit, and the manufacturing sector are all better off now than in January 2009.
---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------

5. Romney complained, "[G]asoline prices have doubled."

To call this comically misleading would be an understatement.

6. Romney went on to claim, "Today more Americans wake up in poverty than ever before."

That's insane. The percentage of Americans in poverty is high, but it's been much higher many times.

7. Referencing Obama, Romney said, "His policies have not helped create jobs."

It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact: Obama has helped create more jobs -- over 4.4 million of them in the private sector. Independent economists agree that the Recovery Act was crucial to improving U.S. job creation.

8. Again in reference to the president, Romney argued, "His plan to raise taxes on small business won't add jobs, it will eliminate them."

Obama has repeatedly cut taxes on small businesses -- by some counts, 18 times -- and if given a second term, his tax plan would have no effect on 97% of small businesses.

9. Romney added, "His trillion dollar cuts to our military will eliminate hundreds of thousands of jobs, and also put our security at greater risk;"

Romney's not only lying, he's also condemning defense cuts crafted by his own party and endorsed by his own running mate.

10. Romney went on to argue, "His $716 billion cut to Medicare to finance Obamacare will both hurt today's seniors, and depress innovation -- and jobs -- in medicine."

Sigh.

11. Romney said "unlike the president," he has a jobs plan.

Romney doesn't have to like the American Jobs Act, but he shouldn't get away with brazenly lying about its existence.

12. Romney added that his jobs plan would "create 12 million new jobs."

As it turns out, if we do nothing, we're on track to create 12 million new American jobs over the next four years anyway.

13. Romney argued, "[L]et me make this very clear -- unlike President Obama, I will not raise taxes on the middle class."

That's actually two lies in one. First, Obama approved one of the largest middle-class tax cuts in American history. (Note to Romney: cutting taxes and raising taxes are not the same thing.) Second, there's ample evidence that Romney will raise taxes on the middle class.

14. Romney said President Obama began his presidency "with an apology tour."

When the book is written on the biggest lies of the Romney campaign, this will be chapter one.

15. Romney went on to say, "President Obama has thrown allies like Israel under the bus."

Officials in Israel say the opposite is true.

16. Romney added, "He abandoned our friends in Poland by walking away from our missile defense commitments."

Officials in Eastern Europe say this claim isn't true.

17. Romney asked, "Does the America we want borrow a trillion dollars from China?"

This continues to be misleading. The implication here is that U.S. debt is financed by the Chinese, but this isn't true -- China only holds about 8% of the nation's debt.

18. In an interview with Fox News, asked about "putting back" that $716 billion in savings, Romney said, "Restoring that money to Medicare does not make it less solvent, it makes it more solvent."

Romney is either profoundly ignorant about the basics of how Medicare works, or he's blatantly lying.

19. Romney complained "the president accuses me of being a felon."

The president never said that. A campaign aide said it may be a felony that Romney's SEC filings are inconsistent with Romney's public claims about his Bain work.

20. Romney also whined, "They have a PAC which says that I'm responsible for someone's death and he won't distance himself from that."

First, the PAC is a separate entity from the president's campaign. Second, Obama did distance himself from the allegation. In fact, he specifically told a briefing room full of reporters, "I don't think that Governor Romney is somehow responsible for the death of the woman that was portrayed in that ad. But keep in mind this is an ad that I didn't approve, I did not produce, and as far as I can tell, has barely run."

21. Romney went on to say, "I think Planned Parenthood, given the fact that it's a major provider of abortions, shouldn't be receiving federal funding."

That's wildly misleading. The law already prevents Planned Parenthood from using public funds to terminate pregnancies.

22. In his latest weekly audio message, Romney said the president "won't even try" to create jobs "anymore."

In reality, Obama has pleaded with Congress to act, and continues to call for action on Capitol Hill. Republicans refuse.

23. At a campaign event in Powell, Ohio, Romney said Obama made "difficult" economic conditions "worse."

That's just crazy.

24. Referencing his one term as governor, Romney boasted, "I was able to get unemployment down to 4.7 percent."

Actually, the unemployment rate in Massachusetts dropped because so many people dropped out of the state's workforce. In reality, Massachusetts' job creation record during Romney's term was "one of the worst in the country," ranking 47th out of 50 states.

25. In the same speech, Romney said the U.S. has "the highest taxes in the world on corporations."

American corporations do not pay the highest tax rates in the world.

26. Romney also said, "[W]e're at a 30-year low in this country for new business startups."

Still not true.

27. Romney added, "[T]he president's vision ... takes us down a road to Europe."

The irony is, Europe is trying to grow through austerity, just as Romney intends to do here. He's lying in a self-refuting sort of way.

28. At a campaign event in Commerce, Michigan, Romney once again said Obama argued "if you have a business you didn't build it, someone else did that."

That's not even close to being true.

29. At the same event, Romney promised, "I'm going to work very hard to finally get America to a balanced budget by cutting the deficit and getting it to zero."

No, actually he's not. Romney says his plan "can't be scored," but independent budget analysts have found his agenda would make the deficit bigger, not smaller, and add trillions to the national debt.

30. In the same breath, Romney said Paul Ryan's budget has "shown the courage to actually" balance the budget.

Paul Ryan's budget doesn't balance the budget. It's a fraudulent document, featuring numbers that don't add up.

Previous editions of Chronicling Mitt's Mendacity: Vol. I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, IX, X, XI, XII,XIII, XIV, XV, XVI, XVII, XVIII, XIX, XX, XXI, XXII, XXIII, XXIV, XXV, XXVI, XXVII, XXVIII, XXIX, XXX, XXXI

Here is a link that might be useful: Volume 32 of Mitt's Lies


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

What disastrous results will the Affordable Health Care cause?

Marquest, I've brought this up time and time again, and no one's given me a good reply. This bill is NOT about affordable health care. I wish it was. It's about putting a good number of small businesses out of business, including mine. Let me ask you-- I haven't been able to afford health care for myself for decades (literally), but I DID keep it up until 2009, when it got to the point that I just couldn't keep it up any more. So now, here I am, my wife and myself without insurance. Now, Obama's saying by year after next, not only do I have to make sure I insure the both of us, but I have to have it for any employees, as well!! And if I can't afford it, he's gonna charge me MORE money! Now tell me when this begins to make sense. Obama's for small business? MY BUTT.

Now, I DO agree that we need something different from what we've got. No doubt about it. But just because this is different, doesn't make this better. This bill once again, bites those in the middle. The wealthy can afford it, the poor will have it given to them, and the middle will take it right up the patutey. Here comes the new boss, same as the old boss.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Now, I DO agree that we need something different from what we've got.

Gee, if only the Republicans had actually participated in the process so that a better solution might have been reached.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Bill, I did some checking because what you are saying just didn't jibe with my understanding of the law. It seems that if you are a small business you would be exempt from the employer responsibility. Also I think if you decide to offer the insurance then you will get subsidies. See if you read this the same way I do.

Firms with fewer than 50 employees are also exempt from the "employer responsibility" provision of the law that otherwise constitutes the biggest business burden in the legislation.The Affordable Care Act (in)famously requires that all individuals who don�t receive insurance from their employer or from a government program such as Medicare or Medicaid must buy their own insurance on a regulated exchange. Subsidies will be provided to those for whom such insurance wouldn�t be affordable. That could be seen as, in effect, penalizing firms that already offer insurance to their workers. To offset this, the law stipulates that companies whose employees receive subsidies to buy exchange plans must pay a financial penalty. That is supposed to deter firms from responding to the law by simply dropping existing insurance coverage. But the ACA doesn�t make small businesses pay that penalty. Put the special subsidies and the exemption together, and the result is a law that�s pretty clearly a good deal for small businesses.

Also the good news is that you and your wife will have health insurance. Seeing that you are both currently uninsured, I cannot begin to stress how important it is that you both have health insurance! You just never know what's around the corner.

Here is a link that might be useful: link


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

I just read a story on CNN about a woman that died without health insurance - thought she would not qualify (she had been diagnosed with cancer 4 times). It turns out she did qualify for the high risk pool:

The Affordable Care Act, which takes full effect in 2014, was supposed to save people like Elder (with pre-existing conditions and no medical coverage) in the interim by way of high-risk pools, also known as the Pre-Existing Condition Insurance Plan or PCIP.

The pools are supposed to be a safety net, but many, like Elder, are falling through the cracks.

Elder's family spent her final months fighting for Medicaid, with no clue that they qualified for Florida's high-risk pool. They are not alone: Of the estimated 200,000-375,000 people expected to enroll in PCIP in the first year, less than one-third have done it, according to the Department of Health and Human Services.

Leslie's husband, Jim Elder, admitted that he did not know many details of the program, and much of the conversation about health care has been confusing.

"I was under the impression that pre-existing (PCIP) didn't start until 2014," said Jim Elder in a recent interview with CNN.

"I'm puzzled. Since this act was passed, to us, people with pre-existing, we were hoping and searching for some sort of way to get health care. The way it has divided the country, some states suing to try and stop it, it's just confused everybody. It certainly confused us."

People need a better way of understanding what it means to them. Who is there for Bill to ask, as a small business owner, what his options are?

Here is a link that might be useful: CNN


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Gee, if only the Republicans had actually participated in the process so that a better solution might have been reached.

Esh, tell me you think it's all the republicans' fault that both sides of the aisle couldn't work together.

I cannot begin to stress how important it is that you both have health insurance! You just never know what's around the corner.

Tell me about it. In fact, I DO know what's around the corner. I just can't afford to take care of it. Not good when I'm sitting there with an architect, and the whole room starts spinning, and 5 minutes later, when it stops my head hurts like someone just hit it with a balpene hammer (just one of several such incidents lately). Sooner or later, it's going to come down to I can't afford to live. So be it. I've said for years I'll be setting tile until they plant me.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

I'll see if I can find where in the bill the language came from that obligated small business, because what I've seen (and it wasn't from a conservative source, either, as I remember) directly contradicts what you've posted.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Esh, tell me you think it's all the republicans' fault that both sides of the aisle couldn't work together.

I absolutely, positively think that.

Tell me why I should think differently. There are quotes out there from Republicans saying they would not work on it.

Yet further evidence that Republicans aren't acting in good faith in the debate over healthcare reform comes from the liberal Center for American Progress, which reports that "after 161 Republican amendments were accepted into the Senate HELP Committee bill, no Republicans voted for it." CAP also suggests that the Republican strategy is simply to block the reform effort.

Here is a link that might be useful: source and quotes here


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Bill, Here you go. This is the government's Affordable Care Act web site and it looks like it has the answers you are seeking.

The law specifically exempts all firms that have fewer than 50 employees �" 96 percent of all firms in the United States or 5.8 million out of 6 million total firms �" from any employer responsibility requirements. These 5.8 million firms employ nearly 34 million workers. More than 96 percent of firms with 50 or more employees already offer health insurance to their workers. Less than 0.2 percent of all firms (about 10,000 out of 6 million) may face employer responsibility requirements. Many firms that do not currently offer coverage will be more likely to do so because of lower premiums and wider choices in the Exchange.

It sounds like you hate going to the doctor. If that's the case, I can relate. That being said, you need to go see a doctor right away. Unless you are doing tequila shots every time Paul Ryan tells a lie, the ROOM SHOULD NOT BE SPINNING. It is possible that you have hypertension like I do. You need to get that checked out. Pretty please.

Here is a link that might be useful: source


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

It's not hypertension. Trust me. Twice now, I've worn halter monitors for 24 hour periods, and both times, everything calmed down during that period. But as soon as I turned the monitors back in (in once case, as I was walking back out to the parking lot from the hospital), my heart started jumping again. But it's all in my mind. :-) That's okay-- I'll just keep going.... until I don't. :-) Keeping in mind I'm 2 years older than my father was when he passed from a massive coronary.... 27 years ago today.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Oh for pete sake, bill. Did a doctor tell you it was all in your mind? It's obviously not. Did they check you for blocked arteries? There's obviously something going on and the doctors need to figure it out!


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Bill, not wishing to risk a diagnosis over the web, but what you're experiencing is what I was experiencing.

You can get a runners heart monitor that straps around the chest - two sensors in the strap, a transmitter that snaps on, and a wrist watch thingie that monitors the pulse rate. MIne cost $60 - looks like they're even cheaper now. Its a real help when you just don't feel right, and it will pick up an irregular heart beat easily, much better than a blood pressure cuff.

Then if you feel funny, its pretty easy to strap it on and see if your heart is acting weird or not.

Here is a link that might be useful: link to runners heart rate monitor


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

JG-- Actually, he did. Yes. Right before he handed me a bill for over 500.00. David-- thank you. I'll check it out at the pharmacy tomorrow.

I'm sorry. I don't know why I've related even THIS much. I think I'll put an end to this right now. This is not what this thread is about.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

But you see it IS about the thread, because I think you have been misinformed as to the facts of the ACA. Please look at the link I posted - it's the ACA's own web site and I know your questions will be answered. Doesn't it take a load off your mind knowing that you are exempt from offering health insurance to your employees since they will be able to get the insurance on the exchanges?


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Yes this is what it is about--in fact, it couldn't be any more fitting: Romney lied about this too. How many people are out there, seriously ill people, in dire need of medical care thinking they do not qualify because they believe Romney's lie?

Get your butt to a different doc. ASAP.



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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Two professionals I have a problem using their services-- doctors and lawyers. The last few times I've been to either one, they told me notyhing I didn't know already, except how much their bill was going to be, and in all cases, it wasn't cheap. Thanks, but no. My wife, too. She's got Lupis, although the doctor won't diagnose it because she doesn't "butterfly" right in front of them (those of you who are familiar know this isn't something that's controllable). She was going to a neurologist to keep the resulting Fibrio and Renauds Syndrome in check. The last two times she went to see him, a nurse took her vitals, she sat there for 25 minutes waiting, he came in, asked no questions, had no conversation whatsoever, looked at her charts, told her she was okay, and walked out, charging us 350.00 each time. WHAT A FRIGGIN RACKET.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Bill when I hear the care people get in their state it breaks my heart. We have so many good doctors in my city that you do not have to spit to find one. We have some bad ones there are doctors that are not as good everywhere just as you have said there are good people at setting stone as there are bad ones. You have to find a good doctor for you and your family.

I hope you and your wife find competent medical services. Good health is good economics.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

charging us 350.00 each time Welcome to the world of the uninsured, where the hospitals and doctors just go ahead and charge you twice what any insurance company would pay.

I'm in a similar situation with pre-existing conditions, and I'm very much looking forward to this because I'll be able to afford insurance - subsidized depending on income.

At the link is a decent article with considerable detail about how Obamacare will help in Colorado, written by an author who "has worked in health care for 40 years and retired as a Lieutenant Colonel from the Army Nurse Corps. She has lived in Chaffee County for eight years and believes that all people deserve quality, accessible and affordable health care."

Here is a link that might be useful: link


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Bill, for your wife to get a proper evaluation as to whether she has Lupus. she needs to visit a Rheumatologist.
It should show up in her blood work.

Hopefully under the ACA you will be able to have insurance again and no longer have to pay the inflated non insured rates.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

She has. She was diagnosed it in Sacramento years ago. The Dr. who diagnosed her has since passed away, and we can't seem to find out what happened to her files (back before things were computerized). Since we've been married, she's tried twice to have a rheumatologist re-diagnose it, and both times, she was told she displays all the other symptoms except for the butterflying (which I'VE seen her do many times (especially when she's pissed at me). But because it didn't happen in front of the doctor, they refuse to diagnose it.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

How do you distinguish between the malar rash of lupus and rosacea?


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Bill, what does her blood work show now that she has been rechecked?
Those markers would not change. If a doctor ran an ANA for Lupus it should be positive . There may be other markers specific to Lupus as well.
She also probably would show an elevated CRP and or Sed rate.
Have those tests been repeated?
I'm not as familiar with Lupus as I am with RA but just as my blood work shows the markers of my disease every time they check for those markers so should hers show the markers of Lupus.
Roscacea tends to have an all over flushing and is often brought on by getting angry, a hot bath or having an alcoholic drink. It is very common in perimenopausal women.
The malar rash of Lupus is more a butterfly shape, kind of over the nose and on the cheeks more of a triangle shape.
I have an overlap of lupus symptoms with my RA--- specifically the malar rash of lupus and it tends to show up when I get over heated , especially if I'm out in the sun.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

chloe-- not sure what her blood work shows. I would imagine it has whatever markers should be present. We've never discussed that. All I know is doctors are, for some reason, very reluctant to diagnose it. Last time her dr. sent her to a specialist was 07.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Bill, having Lupus, myself... I've been run through the gamut of everything from "it's all in your head" to "here, take all these many expensive medications that have more side effects and cause more problems than they will help, but take them anyway"... and all I can tell you is, you just have to keep looking until you find a doctor that understands Lupus and related diseases.

The symptoms vary so much from patient to patient, even though there are several that seem to remain a theme. Horrible joint and bone pain, rashes and blisters, sensitivity to sun and bright light, hair loss, fatigue, and several others... and then there are symptoms that some people experience, while others don't. I get excruciating nerve pains, like I'm being stabbed with a knife, that can happen at any time, and last anywhere from a few seconds to hours at a time. I also experience occasional nail loss, where a toenail or two will simply fall off... the whole nail. I live in a constant state of feeling like someone is scraping the marrow out of my bones with a dull spoon. I experience horrible bouts of insomnia, followed by days of physical weakness, horrible fatigue... it's a never ending cycle that they tell you goes into remission. If it does, I haven't noticed. There are ok days, and there are bad days. Stress makes it worse, and physical trauma can push it into overdrive.

Usually, it takes a doctor who is very familiar with these systemic immune diseases, or has one of them, before you can finally obtain a correct diagnosis. Presenting 4 or more symptoms and certain spatter tests that show certain patterns should clue in a doctor familiar with Lupus that the patient does, indeed, have it.

The medications recommended are poison, however. I stay far away from steroids, malaria medications, anti-inflammatory medications, and most of the other pills they push. I have found that diet helps immensely, and together with a decent pain mask, and being careful and listening to what your body is telling you, is about all a person can do, Bill.

I know well the hassle your wife is going through, and has gone through. I feel for her. It's a difficult, and very misunderstood disease to live with... or to watch someone you love live with. When I got my diagnosis, I think it was the first time I ever saw my husband cry. He had suspected, and had been researching. It's a scary thought that if my immune system wants to, it could attack the systems that keep me alive. It's a frightening disease with no current cure, and very little in the way of true help.

Bill, all I can say to help is... a natural diet is important, plenty of rest is important, and not allowing your wife to overdo anything, physically speaking. Those things, right there, will help a lot. And if you can find a decent doctor not afraid to get out the prescription pad, a decent pain mask will help. I'd rather be dependent upon one medication that actually helps me live a normal life, than take a whole bunch that do nothing but make me feel more ill.

I wish your wife the best... I know how difficult this disease can be to live with...


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

"here, take all these many expensive medications that have more side effects and cause more problems than they will help, but take them anyway"...

We went through that last year. My wife was literally becoming a zombie before my eyes. We talked about it and she realized that the reason she was feeling so terrible was because of all the meds she was taking. She DOES still take some of them, but she's down to 6 or 7 scripts from over 15.

Bill, all I can say to help is... a natural diet is important, plenty of rest is important, and not allowing your wife to overdo anything, physically speaking. Those things, right there, will help a lot.

Already on it. Thank you, though. :-)


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

If there is a internet Lupus discussion group for your state, you might very well find excellent Dr. recommendations right on your internet. You might also check to see if there are Lupus support groups in your area or in the next bigger city and you would get excellent doctor referrals from those patients also.

Get yourself to a doctor too, Bill. Surely you work with people who have problems and are very pleased with their doctor. Surely you can start researching and find some well regarded doctors in your area.

The thing is, it's more unlikely than not that anybody will be able to diagnose you on the spot or with a simple blood test more than likely. Like your job, everything is done in logical steps in order to have a good outcome and that is going to take time, appointments, tests and patience.

Your wife NEEDS you to see a decent doctor, go through the process and get treated.

If you fall down dead because you didn't treat your own illness because you don't trust doctors or didn't want to take all the time for seeing to your health or you don't have the patience for the whole thing - then who will ever make sure she is well taken care of or helped in her daily life and activities as her disease progresses?

She needs you for her health reasons if nothing else, you might very well end up needing HER for health reasons if nothing else.

What if you have a debilitating stroke, leaving you unable to speak or dress yourself rather than a straight forward falling down dead kind of heart attack? What then?

And how much will she appreciate the fact that you didn't trust doctors and that is why, perhaps, you fell down dead and left her with huge problems she will have to cope with the rest of her lupus- limited, afflicted life?

I'm not trying to be mean to you - I know you must be scared - I'm trying to get you to wake up and start dealing with this while you still have that option. You might have to temporarily re-evaluate your priorities in life, and that is scary and uncomfortable.

It's not right that you would refuse to see a doctor when you love your wife so and she obviously loves you back and NEEDS YOU PHYSICALLY because she, herself has a terrible chronic illness.

Listen to Jodi and her pain filled life, Bill. You have an obligation to your wife as her husband to see to it that you are there and are as physically fit as is possible to help her, and she is as physically fit as possible to deal with her chronic illness. All that is an incredibly important part of how married people love each other.

You BOTH need to research and obtain decent medical care right away.

I wish you both the very, very best.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

The fact that we are both physical wrecks doesn't help, Bill, but we do have each other for support, my husband and I. And that counts for a LOT! We each know how the other is feeling, and we each do what we can to make the other more comfortable.

I know there's a giant website dedicated to Lupus containing tons of good information, and we also belong to the American Pain Foundation, which is helping in many ways to remove the stigma of being a chronic pain patient dependent upon certain medications.

Mylab is right... you have to take care of you, too.

You know, I was so used to living my life as an independent woman who could work hard and do most anything I set my mind to, that when I got knocked down by injury on top of disease, it just became so frustrating... to admit to myself that I can't do everything I once could, or to have a day when all I can do is move from one chair to the bed, then back to a different chair, trying to get comfortable... or to have to ask for help getting out of bed... I'm not used to sitting around. I've spent the better portion of my younger life busy, raising kids, working, doing physical things... it's a difficult adjustment.

But you and your wife have each other as a support system... and it becomes ever more important that you each understand what the other is going through... and try hard to maintain patience as frustration gets in the way.

Finding the right medical help is key, I think... after a natural, complete, more organic diet... and getting plenty of rest and not overdoing anything... and remembering that it's quality in life that's important, and not so much quantity. It's tough, I know, but learn to take it easy, if you can, and enjoy the little things.

And on that note, I'm going back to bed for a little while... I feel like I need a bit more rest today. Here's to a better day for everyone! :-)


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

  • Posted by vgkg 7-Va Tidewater (My Page) on
    Tue, Sep 4, 12 at 9:15

Bill my feelings reflect Mylab & Jodik posts. Without any knowledge of your wife's doctor, if those 15 concurrent prescriptions were doled out by him I would say that he has no idea what he's doing and is a crap shoot. My deepest sympathies for you both and everyone who is fighting for solutions to a healthy and disease free life.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

I CAN tell you one thing... the more prescriptions that are taken, the bigger the chemical soup a person's organs must process. Many have negative interactions that older doctors and older pharmacists might not know about, or realize.

Plus, as we all are aware, much of the medical industry is about selling... just like any other industry.

The more you read up on Lupus and its various treatments, the more you find that there's not much you can really do.

I keep one Prednisone pack in the medicine cabinet for severe rash outbreaks. It's the pill pack where you begin by taking 6 the first day, and it dwindles daily until they're gone.

I take a heavy duty pain killer to dull the pain enough to live a semi-normal life.

I take purified fish oil to help with my joints, and for the Omegas.

If I happen to cheat and eat poorly, I take a cholesterol medication. But genetically, it's not necessary. It's all on my diet.

I eat no breads, no pastas, nothing with processed grains or flours.

I eat nothing artificial, unless I cheat, and I make certain the sources of our foods are healthy ones. We eat things like whole oats, fresh vegetables, fruits, meats that are locally grown or hunted... your basic "we are what we eat" diet. I also use athletic meal replacements from either Champion or Optimum to ensure I get an even, necessary amount of vitamins and minerals and nutrition.

I've completely abandoned the chemical stew of pills and steroids and other medications that I've found do more damage than good. 99% of them either made me feel nothing, or made me feel more ill.

I'm sure it varies patient to patient, but I'd swear by the fact that all the medications offered to treat Lupus are harmful in some way, carry way too many side effects, and are not doing anything positive for the body's inner systems. It's just more intake for an already compromised immune system to deal with, in my humble opinion.

It's only my own point of view, but I'd rather just eat properly, cover the horrible pain, and get on with life. I prefer not to be a guinea pig or just another consumer for the big pharmaceutical corporations.

My son is a Dr. of Pharmacology, and even he thinks half the medications handed out are unnecessary or harmful.

Honestly, though... it was a diet change that really made the difference for me. I keep moving, working at a steady pace, but when I feel I've had enough, I stop and rest. Those things have probably made the biggest difference in how I actually feel.

So far, it appears that my systemic Lupus has mostly been busy attacking my nerves, bones, joints, and hair and skin. I'll count myself lucky if it stays that way.

In researching, I was staggered by the number of diagnosed cases... imagine what goes undiagnosed?


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

More "don't let facts get in the way". It's about the only thing Mitt has been consistent with.



A new Romney ad would have viewers believe that former President Bill Clinton was commenting on President Obama's handling of the economy when he said, "Give me a break. This whole thing is the biggest fairy tale I've ever seen." That's false. Clinton's 2008 comment was aimed at Obama's portrayal of Hillary Clinton as supporting Iraq war policies.

The ad comes on the heels of Clinton's rousing endorsement of Obama during the Democratic National Convention, a speech more people considered to be the highlight of the Democratic convention than Obama's own speech. The Romney ad seeks to remind voters that Clinton hasn't always been so effusive in his praise of Obama - at least not when Obama was locked in a heated Democratic presidential primary battle with Clinton's wife, Hillary.

The ad focuses on the economy - arguing that under Obama it has gotten worse - and then says Obama has called on Bill Clinton "to help his failing campaign." The ad then borrows a clip from a recent Obama campaign ad in which Clinton says, "This election, to me, is about which candidate is more likely to return us to full employment." Clinton then goes on to endorse Obama.

The Romney ad's narrator says Clinton is a "good soldier, helping his party�s president," but adds, "What did Bill Clinton say about Barack Obama in 2008?"

The ad then shows a clip of Clinton saying, "Give me a break. This whole thing is the biggest fairy tale I've ever seen."

The narrator then follows up with two economic statistics. The first is that there are "23 million Americans struggling for work." According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, that's an accurate count of the number of unemployed (12.5 million) plus those working part time who would like to be working full time (8 million) and those "marginally attached" to the workforce (2.6 million), which includes workers so discouraged by the bad economy that they have stopped looking for work. The ad's narrator also states that the "middle class [is] falling further behind," a statement from a CNN Money story about a Pew Research Center report that talks about the "lost decade of the middle class" and spans the presidencies of both Obama and George W. Bush. (In fact, the people surveyed blamed Bush more than Obama for the downturn.)

The ad then follows up with Clinton repeating, "Give me a break."

Given the context of the ad and its focus on the economy, viewers might assume Clinton was talking about something to do with Obama's economic policy. He wasn't.

Rather, while stumping for his wife in 2008, Clinton expressed his frustration with what he viewed as the media giving Obama a free pass regarding Obama's position on the war in Iraq.

The definition of insanity...

Here is a link that might be useful: FACT CHECK: Romney ad takes Clinton quote out of context.


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RE: Don't let facts get in the way

Liars liars pants on fire.


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