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Just Honoring their War Heros

Posted by labrea 7NYC (My Page) on
Wed, Aug 22, 12 at 14:50

This is from an online petition I am not linking the petition cause I think it's a non no. I also think this is a no no & a further example of a crew that didn't know what unconditional surrender was. It needs to stop!

People know Selma, Alabama as a city where Dr. King fought for civil rights. Selma was the launching point for pivotal protests that hurtled the voting rights movement into the national spotlight. It is also a city of tragedy: thousands of students, religious leaders, and families fighting for civil rights in Selma were arrested, injured, or brutally killed.

I grew up in Selma. Now, as a community organizer, I think often about the sacrifices of the people who lived here before me. I was outraged and ashamed to learn that Selma's city council is sitting idly by as a local neo-Confederate group expands a public monument to a founder of the Ku Klux Klan, Nathan Bedford Forrest.

Monuments celebrating violent racism and intolerance have no place in this country, let alone in a city like Selma, where the families of those attacked by the Klan still live.

Nathan Bedford Forrest was a Confederate military leader, a founding member of the KKK, and the first Grand Wizard of the KKK. He wasn't even from Selma -- why should Selma be honoring his shameful legacy of racial segregation and terrorism?

If Selma wants be viewed by the rest of the country as forward-thinking, we cannot give in to those who pine for the "good ole days" of the 1860s. This monument has blighted our town for far too long. Please join me in calling on the Selma city council to remove the monument celebrating Ku Klux Klan founder Nathan Bedford Forrest.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Just Honoring their War Heros

Interesting and probably worthy of some minor research. I was aware of Forrest as a military genius in the Confederacy but had never heard of him being connected to the KKK.

It was a brutal time and from what I read he was accused of some truly horrendous acts. Surprisingly he was never convicted or connected to those crimes although charged. I doubt we will ever know the exact truth of the matter, especially with the prevalence of Yellow Journalism of that time but whether the accusations are true or not I can see the reasons for the commotion.

From The New World Encyclopedia there is this little snippet that is interesting and confusing:"Forrest is also one of the war's most controversial figures. Although he was accused of war crimes at the Battle of Fort Pillow for having led Confederate soldiers in an alleged massacre of unarmed black Union troops, the accusation was later rejected by an 1871 Congressional investigation.
After the war he was alleged to have participated in the founding of the Ku Klux Klan. Despite rumors that he was the first Grand Wizard of the Klan, the Congressional investigation of the Klan in 1871, which included several former Confederate generals, undertaken by Radical Republicans concluded that Forrest did not found the Klan, was not its leader, did not participate in its activities and worked to have it disbanded.[1]"

There are numerous articles from many sources that reprint a quite flowery speech he made to a large group of Freedmen that add more confusion and an entry from Wikisource that makes it worse. I'll let you do the looking. I got tired of acrimony from both sides. There doesn't seem to be anything on the monument itself that connects it to the KKK.

Short of actually seeing original material, I don't know that anyone is telling the truth about anything although I'm sure they believe it is so.

Here is a link that might be useful: Truth or myth?


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RE: Just Honoring their War Heros

Nathan Bedford Forrest was a Confederate military leader, a founding member of the KKK, and the first Grand Wizard of the KKK.

A very interesting question. I was aware of Forrest as a military leader, but I didn't know of his connection to the KKK.

He wasn't even from Selma -- why should Selma be honoring his shameful legacy of racial segregation and terrorism?

Shameful, at best, on the part of those wishing to honor him; outright racist at worst.


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RE: Just Honoring their War Heros

Dunces of the Confederacy...


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RE: Just Honoring their War Heros

How such a movement can even claim legitimacy today is beyond me. There should be no monuments to remind us of a time when one race owned another, when slavery was accepted and existed, and it floors me to know that somewhere, some people still exalt this type of evil and want to bring it back.

In its place should be a monument proclaiming equality for all, regardless of race, religion or any other human difference.


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RE: Just Honoring their War Heros

He was a genius who killed US soldiers that horse crap!


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Some of Forrest's slaves rode with him as cavalry-men. Somewhat interesting, considering the general opinion of the times about black men being armed. Says something about Forrest as well, could this be the same person who would create an agency dedicated to the superiority of whites?

Yes. Society and people are complex, then and now, and ironies abound, for example the first person fatally harmed in John Brown's attack on Harper's Ferry, first step in his war to free the slaves, was a free black man. Collateral damage, we would call it now.


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RE: Just Honoring their War Heros

Forrest's tactics are still studied in such places as West Point. If you read my link you might see that after the war some of his former slaves returned to work for him.

I am not an apologist for Forrest but considering that slavery was legal until the Emancipation Proclamation, and he was considered benevolent by the slaves he owned, it is hard to fault him by the moral standards of today. An awful lot of monuments would have to come down.


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RE: Just Honoring their War Heros

I bet you he was a swell guy all around & I bet a statue "Honoring" key word Santa Anna near the ALAMO would cause holy Hell.
They study Rommel at west Point also he was a brilliant tactician I would not imagine interesting a statue to him anywhere in the US would go over well. I live in the US this man fought the US & was a traitor to the oath he swore as a commissioned officer.
SELMA


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RE: Just Honoring their War Heros

If you read anything about this other than the OP you would know that a memorial to the man leading the troops that were defending the city, win or lose, is not all that outrageous.


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I don't have any problem with Rommel.

Joe, I sometimes wonder why you didn't join the MC.


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RE: Just Honoring their War Heros

This kind of thing reflects the average person's relationship with historical study: non-existent, or very shallow. Hence the demonizing or lionizing of historical figures, judging them firstly on minimal knowledge and secondly always by modern standards.

But, hey, let's get used to and worship ignorance, since it's everywhere - especially if it comes wrapped up in the packaging of righteousness. It would be very silly to use any event like this for two sides of an issue to listen to each other and actually learn something. For example, in this case, a non-biased authority on Forrest could come and give a talk, and all people in the community could learn about their history. No, much better to erase all signs of the past and build a KFC there so that descendants of black and white cotton-pickers can have a place to flip burgers.


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RE: Just Honoring their War Heros

Sore are you!


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RE: Just Honoring their War Heros

That is an exclamation!


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RE: Just Honoring their War Heros

I don't waste time with mental sores. I'm curious. Why so close-minded on certain issues, namely ones that seem to hit your tribalistic button?


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RE: Just Honoring their War Heros

I have yet to be illumined by any of your replies they rarely contain any information, no pearls & always have a flavor of academic smugness to them that takes a sort of indolent offense here and there on this & that. Enlighten me & the forum or move on is all I'll ever ask.
Now this has all digressed from a petition that's on the web & the topic & has become about you & I. There is a remedy move along!


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RE: Just Honoring their War Heros

On the contrary, I have spoken in a coherent manner to your OP and you have not, IMO.

You typically don't seem interested in starting or having serious debates, your threads seem more about discovering what flavor of ideology members of the forum adhere to.

This one for example: either we believe Forrest was a "piece of crap" or we are anti-patriots and racists, correct? I have no interest in living in such a tiny boxed-in world, thanks.


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RE: Just Honoring their War Heros

Dear heart your post is writing about the poster for the most part as you have before!
That there are multiple stories on line currently about plan for the new memorial has not been expanded one iota by your posts. If 14 books by 14 Civil war experts were posted in their entirety it would not illuminate the current squabble over this monument. It would only tell us new angles on what happened then.
What have you to tell me or anyone else reading about Forest or that zeitgeist will justify a current crews motives (or problems).
That he became a swell guy later in life what of it is it important?.
I can only guess I was supposed to nibble at a definition for (tribal?) for a future expanded excoriation of my lack of your expert knowledge.
You want to donate to his monument say so get out of the box no one is keeping your in what a cliche. (now I'm excoriating you)
See again this post is not about the topic but personal again I certainly know that many of mine are. I actually think you might believe that your not ever condescending, petty or sore! LOL


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RE: Just Honoring their War Heros

Regarding the ad hominems, no I don't think I am ever sore. Petty, I hope not often. Condescending, probably I can easily seem so.

Ok, more specifically regarding your OP:

I think that people should not take offense at the maintenance of a memorial to Forrest. You didn't post a link, so I'm not sure what exactly is meant by an expansion. I'll search it up and get back to you with an opinion. If people have a problem with it, why not go there and have a dialogue with those maintaining or improving the memorial? Probably everyone involved would learn something.

Additionally, your assertion that history has no part in a debate over a memorial makes zero sense to me. Memorials, I would hardly think it necessary to point out (is that condescending?), are all about the past.


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RE: Just Honoring their War Heros

Ok, here is a recent piece from a local newspaper.

Allow me to say that it is of course completely understandable that some people are hot as heck about the Jim Crow and Confederate and earlier eras. The problem is that a lot of the people who get the hottest ain't the smahtest. IOW, they aren't able to have a dialogue, they can only vociferously denounce whatever they think is wrong. Anyone who doesn't agree, is against them.

For example, the woman in the article, so angry that there should exist a memorial to Forrest, ought to be far angrier about what went on in Alabama, even more so than any other state, with the outrageous peonage system during Jim Crow. I'm angry about it. Every level of government, starting with the Federal, and ending with local governments in Alabama, should pay for allowing that system. They should pay now, with real money, taken from real living people, like myself and everyone else. Every existing business concern with any traceable connection to that system should pay a penalty, not to be excused by bankruptcy dodges.

Forrest's descendants won't be excepted either, but one thing is for sure, Forrest at least had the balls to be direct about what he believed in, and risk his life, liberty and property for it. Most people today, myself included, think his general beliefs were wrong. Slavery was wrong. Being willing to kill people over it was wrong. He was a notable military figure, and the attitude that all memorials to historical figures must be erased because we don't like what they stood for is a dangerous one. If we don't like what happened in the past, let's pay more attention to it, not less. The loathsome creatures that profited from working black men to disfigurement, ruin, and death simply because they could are in many cases known people. They should be publicized, maybe even have memorials made so that we can remember just how vile people can be when there is no public approbation of their inhumanity.

Here is a link that might be useful: pick up a book, protestors


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RE: Just Honoring their War Heros

"This is from an online petition I am not linking the petition cause I think it's a non no."


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RE: Just Honoring their War Heros

A book would tell you, something another book will not will tell you, will tell you have no right to protest, will tell you everything you thought you ever knew was wrong (lots of those books currently) will tell you your opinion or the opinion the well studied opinion of the author along with piles of foot notes to prove his her assertion till the next books opinion cleverly dissects it.
My opinion is listed above it doesn't match yours it's a simple as that!
My opinion is just that mine! My opinion has been posted on this forum before in regard to the on going uncivil war.


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RE: Just Honoring their War Heros

Acho que nos falamos as linguas diferentes.


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RE: Just Honoring their War Heros

Okay, Brown, I was just enjoying the banter, and there you go with an example of how you can be condescending. Translate, please. I don't have that language. Looks Portuguese...and step on it; you two are on a fun roll.


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RE: Just Honoring their War Heros

"I think we speak different languages", elvis.

Just to keep things rolling for your particular pleasure.


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RE: Just Honoring their War Heros

Thank you, Kate. Well, that's a no brainer for this forum, isn't it? Or maybe it's just real life.


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RE: Just Honoring their War Heros

I'm not Kate.


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RE: Just Honoring their War Heros

I had a client once, for a year, a very expensive and difficult job, and that was pretty much the last thing he said to me:

"it seems like we just don't speak the same language".

I couldn't gainsay it.


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RE: Just Honoring their War Heros

I was speaking to a fellow community gardener he's a researcher at NYU in one of his partnered articles it was posited.
"Our conscious life is a constant flow, or integration, of an immediate past and the present what Edelman calls the remembered present. Consciousness, in this view, is neither recalled representations nor the immediate present, but something different in kind." Further on

"The neurons that fire when a monkey grasps an object also fire when the monkey watches a scientist grasp the same object."

"We can recognize and understand the actions of others because of the mirror neurons. As Rizzolatti says, our perceptions of the motor acts and emotive reactions of others appear to be united by a mirror mechanism that triggers the same neural structures that are responsible for our own actions and emotions."

What that say for a forum!


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RE: Just Honoring their War Heros

Posted by duluthinbloomz4 zone 4a (My Page) on Sat, Aug 25, 12 at 13:24

"I'm not Kate."

You're certainly not. My sincere apologies. Terrible mistake, Duluth.


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If you read Wikipedia on Forrest he comes across as less-hmmm how to put it....for the Forrest KKK connection deniers here is an interesting historical tidbit. He is credited with personally starting the KKK chapter in Pontotoc Mississippi-in the basement of the county court house, and they claim to have documents to prove it-with roster rolls in his writing and such stuff. I never popped in to see it but everyone said it was there.

the connection to Selma is an odd one. He was the President of a rail road that had its headquarters there and he ran it into bankruptcy. Celebrate!


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Accepted, elvis. Easy mistake being only @3700 miles apart. :-)


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RE: Just Honoring their War Heros

Treason is & still was treason. As so many Southerns did not turn their back on the US during this manufactured event I still and will always regard any and all who served against the US as Traitors. That's what I had posted here before & that's where & what I continue to maintain from my tribal box.


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RE: Just Honoring their War Heros

Duluth:

No excuse, really. Maybe the "db" part. Anyway, there is no similarity. My bad.


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The Small monument to the Alabama 1st cavalry that entered Atlanta with Sherman & served their country. Knew I had it somewhere!
The secession of Alabama was bitterly contested before the war & the bitterness did not vanish after the war & supposedly played in state politics for many years after the insurrection.


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RE: Just Honoring their War Heros

Lebrea-I am with you on this one-treason is treason.
As a 4th grader in Montgomery Alabama with parents raised as southern as southern is I thought it was for the best that the south lost-becouse I had traveled outside of the south. I had a world view.


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The secession of Alabama was bitterly contested before the war & the bitterness did not vanish after the war & supposedly played in state politics for many years after the insurrection.

That's back in the days when you wouldn't be caught dead being a Republican.


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Each secession was contested. Not sure how that is relevant to the topic, which, IMO, is whether we should rub out the history and memorials that offend us, or some of us.

I'm sticking with "no" as the answer.

To my knowledge, BTW, nobody denies that Forrest was a key organizer in the establishment of the KKK. He was an unabashed white supremacist. In his day that was normal rather than abnormal, but let's not make any attempt to be historians.


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RE: Just Honoring their War Heros

I see that's how you are regarding the topic & I am seeing it as honoring a traitor.
I did not live during the same period I regard the confederacies military in the same fashion Megis regarded Lee.


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I don't know Megis, but it might be we are getting close to speaking in one tongue, at least.


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Forrest cannot be equated to Rommel. Forrest would not have been ordinary Wehrmacht, he would have been SS.

As for his slaves serving as soldiers under his command. Now there is a perfect example of Stockholm Syndrome.


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General Montgomery C Megis not a big fan of Robert E or any other Confederate Officers who surrendered or didn't surrender their commissions before rendering service in the insurrection. He was the Quartermaster General of the Us Army.
He is considered the reason the Arlington Cemetery is where it is. Confiscating Robert E Lee's property for the cemetery for United States dead the property which the Supreme Court later declared was illegal.
He was one of a number of Federal US officers from the south to serve their nation. I used Rommel & Santa Anna as examples as foreigners as I would any confederate dead.
There always my never ending gripe that those who remained loyal to the Union despite what State delegations voted. Some who fall into a void a sort of condescension that somehow the Confederacy was legitimate and needs to be honored by the presently elected representatives of those states. That all the descendants of these states trace their ancestor to proud confederate forebearers. There was only 1 state South Carolina that did not send forces to fight with the US in the conflict.


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RE: Just Honoring their War Heros

Right, I did read about Megis on one of the "disunion" segments.

Joe, I propose that your attitude re: illegitimacy and traitors falls into the territory of "winners write the history", rather than actual historianship. Megis was there so his attitudes are part of the history of the era, mine and yours are not.


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You already proposed that in other terms I understood you then.
The line of reasoning could bar the way to war crime trials & does render most histories (suppositions which in a way everything is) including all the hub bub on language difficulties above. You need to be right I need to have an opinion!


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RE: Just Honoring their War Heros

I think I have also posted before on this for the seizures of federal property & goods by States Confederated or not is & was also considered treasonous. Governors did not have the discretionary authority to use at will or command at will the resources of the Federal Government located in their States.


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I guess I fail to understand how a hindsight judgement of treason upon historical characters is of any use.


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I don't think that anyone associated with the KKK should be honored.

D.W. Griffith's 'Birth of a Nation' made me uncomfortable with the glorification of the Klan (and its depictions of African Americans). However innovative and important 'Birth of a Nation' may be in cinematic history, those troubling elements are noted when the film is discussed. Why should a Confederate General, and a Klansman, have a monument which essentially is an endorsement?


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RE: Just Honoring their War Heros

It's not of any use unless you plan to erect a monument to them! Then what difference does it make if someone has a shallow knowledge of history or never read a book in their life in this regard. Thanks for coming along for the walk!


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