Return to the Hot Topics Forum | Post a Follow-Up

 o
Abortion after rape or incest or for teen mother

Posted by heri_cles 10 (My Page) on
Tue, Sep 4, 12 at 2:56

There are RightWingers (including a few here) that are opposed to abortion even in the case of rape or incest and under other circumstances where a teen could not even consent to sex with an adult buit does not report the pregnancy as a rape or incest. You can basically throw that statistics out because on the basis of embarrassment alone, or in fear of remunerations, mothers giving birth as a result of incest are not going to admit it let alone report it.

I am interested in hearing from those who are ProLife even in the case of rape and incest.
I think it would add something to the conversation about this exception if those who feel that way can explain how they arrived at that conclusion and whether they weighed the personal and sociological consequences of unwanted pregnancies

Likewise, I would like to hear from those who are against abortions generally, but are willing to make a legal exception for victims of rape and incest, and perhaps minors under a certain age like under 15 yrs. old who gets pregnant under any circumstances.

My own opinion is this. I agree with a woman's right to choose during the first trimester for any reason she chooses. It is her life. I do not recognize that an embryo or a fetus under 90 days old is a human being as of yet. Therefore, it is my opinion that the embryo or fetus at that age does not have the same Constitutionally protected Rights that citizens have once born into the World.

I am abhorred with the idea that a teenage victim of a brutal sexual attack by some creepy step father would be forced by the government to carry that child to term. It seems to me that those who favor government intervention once a woman becomes pregnant via rape or incest (as Paul Ryan and Todd Akin do and Romney did) are really stretching their personal ideology and forcing it on others.

For the most part, many pro-life ideologues could not care less about pregnant teens in the ghetto, welfare mothers, or victims of rape and incest. Many of them affirmatively oppose Public Aid, welfare, school lunch programs, equal pay for woman, affirmative action, and other programs and policies that will eventually impact some teen mothers who have given birth to children that they are unable to raise or cannot afford to raise in a decent environment or make sure that they get a fair shot in life.


Follow-Up Postings:

 o
RE: Abortion after rape or incest or for teen mother

I think the one part of the discussion a lot of people miss when this issue comes up is that no one is PRO-ABORTION. Not one person I've ever heard speak on this issue, or one thing I've read indicates this.

Anyone who is pro-CHOICE is hopeful that abortion won't have to be a choice, but is adamant that such choices remain in place for those who find themselves in a predicament where such a choice may the best or only one for the individual situation. And it must be maintained that each situation IS individual of any other.

A thoughtful society doesn't just balk and say no without thinking the consequences through to conclusion for each possible individual scenario.

The typical stereotype is that poor persons of loose morals, which are subjective, are using abortion as an everyday birth control method, when such a stereotype could not be further from the truth, all aspects considered. It doesn't even make any sense as a stereotype, as abortions are quite expensive medical procedures.

I believe the pro-choice group balks at any other groups taking control over individual moral compasses, reproductive planning, and forcing unwanted beliefs while forcefully removing choices from the individual.

At the same time, we see statistics that tell us the higher numbers of off kilter morality and abortions are actually emanating from the very places that so strongly oppose such choices and measures.

The usual wish from the pro-choice groups are that more education and a wider variety of birth control choices are put into place so that abortion doesn't have to be a choice. But without knowledge, education, available birth control methods that extend beyond abstinence, which is proven to be a failure overall, more abortions are statistically the choice made.

When the actual numbers are run, it's usual to find a higher teen pregnancy rate among those less the education, less the knowledge, less the availability of birth control, or preventive methodology, and higher rates of venereal disease, and of public assistance programs utilized.

Less teen pregnancy, less disease, and less abortions are found where knowledge and education are in play, preventive pregnancy methods are available, along with health care and family planning.

From a personal standpoint, I don't believe it's anyone's business what I choose to do with my body, how I choose to go about family planning, or how I go about preventing disease. Logic and common sense tell us that the more we know, and the more affordable options we have available, the less unwanted children there are to use up publicly funded assistance.

My moral compass is mine, and mine alone. It does not require close scrutiny by anyone, including the religious sector or the governing body. In other words, stay out of my private business, and I'll leave you to yours.

The underlying case has already been put to rest by the Supreme Court. It's not the business of religion to step where they have no power. They do not control the beliefs or morals of anyone but themselves.


 o
RE: Abortion after rape or incest or for teen mother

And jodik blames me for being a pot stirrer. This is tired old ground , heri, so i will pass my mantle to you...


 o
RE: Abortion after rape or incest or for teen mother

And jodik blames me for being a pot stirrer. This is tired old ground , heri, so i will pass my mantle to you...

What a non-responsive wise guy comment.


 o
RE: Abortion after rape or incest or for teen mother

Rush Limbaugh issued a FATwa instructing Republicans not to answer this question.

Amazing how they follow like brainless sheep....like the throngs of Germans saluting Hitler "Heil Hitler" in the old WWII films.
It's makes one wonder how far this mindless adherence to an angry and armed Right Wing will be taken.

Here is a link that might be useful: Limnbaugh's Fatwa to Republicans


 o
RE: Abortion after rape or incest or for teen mother

Take a joke every once in a while, Tobr... geez! ;-)

Do you, or do you not, continually begin threads of high controversy, and then sit back comfortably and watch the melee that ensues? C'mon... admit it! We all know you do! ;-)


 o
RE: Abortion after rape or incest or for teen mother

Limbaugh:

" For any and all of you Republicans, when you are asked, "Why you don't have a rape exception in the party platform on abortion?" don't answer it.
Don't get into the substance.
That's the trick.
Turn it right around on 'em and say, "Have you asked the Democrats why they have blanket support for partial-birth abortion and taxpayer-funded abortion? Have you asked the Democrats why they think it's permissible for the government to tell the Catholic Church and other organizations they must make abortion available against their religious beliefs?"
Don't answer the question, Republicans. Don't go anywhere near it. "

Here is a link that might be useful: Limbaugh halts discussion on rape exception


 o
RE: Abortion after rape or incest or for teen mother

I think another part of this discussion that people miss or dismiss is that pro-lifers believe that abortion is murder and to support the 'murder of babies' is against their moral compass. Just as Jodik doesn't want anyone to impede her moral compass, they ask the same.

Therein lies the problem.


 o
RE: Abortion after rape or incest or for teen mother

Ironically, I have an easier time understanding someone that is pro-life having the belief that all abortions should be illegal. If their belief is that abortion is murder, then why is it ok to "murder" someone because they were conceived by rape or incest?

My position is that this decision has been decided by the Supreme Court already. It's not murder and it's a woman's right to choose. Therefore, stay out of my decision making process.

But, having said that, I do understand why pro-life people have a hard time with this. If they do believe it's murder, then I understand why they want to change the laws.

What bothers me even more is their attempts at limiting abortion in whatever ways they can find (intrusive exams, waiting periods, etc etc) to try and chip away at Roe v Wade. It's my belief they do this because it makes it easier for them to get more people to buy into this. There are people right here at HT that say they are pro-choice. They believe in a woman's right to choose. But then they say that all these laws being enacted to make it harder to get an abortion are not a problem. And that we are all just paranoid and crazy to think there's a war against women. It's a trick by the right wing religous folks to get more people that are not quite as right wing or religious to buy into it.


 o
RE: Abortion after rape or incest or for teen mother

lavenderlver, how are you respecting my moral compass if you attempt to legislate my legal rights? Seems a little one sided respect going on.


 o
RE: Abortion after rape or incest or for teen mother

I am pro-choice, so your question to me is misplaced. What I wanted to point out is there is no way some people's moral compass will not be affected.


 o
RE: Abortion after rape or incest or for teen mother

No one is stepping on the pro-lifer's toes. They are perfectly free to avoid things like abortions, birth control, disease prevention, and even sex if they so wish. There is no forced anything. Turn your heads while walking past buildings of ill repute.

Once more... just for the echo chamber, I know... there are no Federally funded abortions. It's a myth.

How many times must we debunk myths, and mention that little factoid before someone actually pays attention?

Pro-lifers can go about their business completely content that they are making the right choices for themselves. Isn't that a pleasant thought?

Except... the line you keep crossing ends up between legs that do not belong to you. You don't get to choose who does what to whom for how much, or who has differing beliefs than you do. You don't get to decide what other females do where sex and family planning come into play.

And that's what burns you up, eats you alive inside... that lack of control over others.

I would never dare to tell you how to behave or what to believe, so what makes you think you get to tell me, to force me? You don't. It's that simple.

I support the right to have choices available. And I would support my daughters or granddaughters, or any other female, to make the choice she felt was the best one for her and her individual situation.


 o
RE: Abortion after rape or incest or for teen mother

When I see you as an extension of me I am wrong! Whe I ask you to forego something that is legal for you to participate in I am intruding if not abusing you regardless of what is in my head or where I claim it came from eg GOD!


 o
RE: Abortion after rape or incest or for teen mother

There is nothing wrong with having this discussion again. It is not a one time debate but rather a fluid changing conversation.

I am pro-choice. Always have been. In Canada there are approximately 100,000 abortions a year (numbers vary depending on the source and because some go unreported if done in private clinics) and that means that, for me, there are 100,000 reasons why those pregnant women decided to have an abortion. And for me, every one of those reasons is valid.

I don't have a problem with those who are pro-life. Like many discussions and arguments, it is often our own upbringing, sensibilities, culture, experiences,education and interpretations that frame our opinions on these hot-button issues.

However, I do not understand, nor will I ever understand how a man can even begin to fathom the pregnancy and abortion issue. They will never be pregnant, they will never have to go through the agonizing decision of choosing to have an abortion. Yes, a man can state an opinion - go for it - but it will never have a place in my discussion. Close-minded, perhaps, but there it is.


 o
RE: Abortion after rape or incest or for teen mother

blfenton - I agree with you on men having a say. My DH said to me recently that he doesn't understand how any man can begin to tell a woman what she should do in that situation. He said that while a man can try to understand, he can never begin to really understand it from a woman's perspective. And can never know what it's like to go through a pregnancy, a delivery, or an abortion. They can be there to support any one of those, but cannot really understand it. He's so smart.


 o
RE: Abortion after rape or incest or for teen mother

I probably should not be speaking for those that are against abortion on moral grounds and invite those that are to correct me, but, I don't see it as a matter of extension Labrea.

Whether the someone being murdered/executed is an innocent 'baby' or a convicted murderer, some feel the moral responsibility to intervene. It can be a deeply compelling conviction that I certainly can respect outside of the bigger, perhaps more important picture.


 o
RE: Abortion after rape or incest or for teen mother

If only the intervention aspect were looked at a bit closer... by what right does someone intervene in the personal life of another human being they do not even know?

By what right do you force your personal and/or religious beliefs onto another?

No one on the opposite side of the coin has forced you to stop believing as you will, or attending the worship of some god, or avoiding any personal choices you feel go against your innermost beliefs and feelings.

Therefore, as "compelling" as it may seem, you do not possess the right to step in and stop, or legislate against, choices that others who do not believe the same way you do have.

Perhaps one day our representatives will write a bill that makes organized religions illegal. Would it be ok with you because those representatives and their constituents felt compelled to stop you from believing blindly in something that they feel very strongly doesn't exist? Would that be ok with you?

It's nothing more than a control issue. Compelling has nothing to do with it, truth be told. The human race is not going to agree on all issues at all times, and some folks simply have to get used to that notion.

The control thing doesn't work for me. It doesn't work for many people. The choice thing does.

You have your choice... and I have mine. What is so difficult about stepping back and allowing each human being to make their own legal choices in life?

It's my personal responsibility to make the right choice for me. Aren't some people always talking about that personal responsibility issue?


 o
RE: Abortion after rape or incest or for teen mother

I recall some very poignant words from you on another topic regarding women who are being raped and how you would fight to help them if you ever came across the situation. I believe you said something along the lines of, if I needed help, would you be there to help me.

That is the same type of right of intervention in the mindset of those against abortion and I'm sorry I can't explain it any better. It's about helping and saving, not control. Not for all, but for many.


 o
RE: Abortion after rape or incest or for teen mother

Sometimes I wish that the Pro-lifers would stop a momment and think about a woman's choice.

Suppose that she looks at all the situation. Is it possible that no matter whether or not she is totally anti-abortion, that she feels that the abortion is the lesser of two evils?

If it were her daughter raped by a drunken creep, would she want the daughter to forget the nightmare, or would she force her daughter to withstand the pregnancy? There has to be choice available and legal.

We would hope that the days of the back-alley abortion will never return. It was bad. But without choice, that was all that was available. If a woman wants an abortion bad enough, she will find a way. The results are often a disaster

I'll repeat myself here. Which is the lesser or two evils?


 o
RE: Abortion after rape or incest or for teen mother

bifenton raises a point that is not what my OP was asking, but it is related to the topic and I am happy that she raised it.
As a man, all I can say is that I agree with her 100%.

In a recent post, Bill V stated that he was against abortion except when the life of the mother was threatened.

Chase responded "Don't make me love you Bill."

I am just baffled at how people, especially men, would want the government to force a teenager to carry a pregnancy to term after getting raped repeatedly by her mother's boyfriend....and this is an ugly and all too common occurrence.

I wanted a discussion so that we can understand how people come to that conclusion, is it a religious belief that a fertilized egg immediately becomes a human in God's eyes, or is it something else?

Religion is bringing a lot of people to some strange places and I think this is another one.


 o
RE: Abortion after rape or incest or for teen mother

heri....I think that it is that they think abortion is be sinful, therefore if they say that women should be able to choose, then they are aiding and abetting that Sin. That fear of eternal damnation in a burning hell makes them choose what they think will help get them a cozy place in Heaven.


 o
RE: Abortion after rape or incest or for teen mother

What I find problematic is that seemingly growing segment incapable of accepting the fact that others are, indeed, personally responsible; guidelines have to be legislated to protect them from themselves. It would take years to fix the brokenness these kinds of enactments would foist on others.

I just can't be an absolutist when it comes to morality (abortion and the free choice to have one in the particular case of this thread) and I take issue with John Paul II's encyclical, "Veritas Splendor", which effectively states morals are fixed regardless of circumstances, intents, outcomes. Face it, we all deal with things to the degree in which we are personally affected by them.

The moral compass notwithstanding - we all have one. It only points in a direction, it can't make you go there. Faced with having to make a life altering decision, even the strongest moral compass might find its needle veering a bit off true.


 o
RE: Abortion after rape or incest or for teen mother

The thing is, the entire framing of this debate by the anti-abortion crowd is based on lies and falsehoods, to begin with. They are lying to you, simple as that.


 o
RE: Abortion after rape or incest or for teen mother

I undertand the lies perfectly well ... as well as the promulgation of don't bother to think; we've done all the thinking for you.


 o
RE: Abortion after rape or incest or for teen mother

Ya...the pro-we choose for you crowd.

I know you do.


 o
RE: Abortion after rape or incest or for teen mother

I think that it is that they think abortion is be sinful, therefore if they say that women should be able to choose, then they are aiding and abetting that Sin.

Yet they are not trying to keep people from cheating on their spouses which I believe is also a sin ....


 o
RE: Abortion after rape or incest or for teen mother

Doesn't that just make life just, oh I don't know, just so much simpler? Must be nice to bask in the glow of knowing all you (generic) do is for someone else's own good.


 o
RE: Abortion after rape or incest or for teen mother

I am pro-choice, so your question to me is misplaced. What I wanted to point out is there is no way some people's moral compass will not be affected.

lavenderlver, I know you are pro-choice and appreciate you trying to offer a perspective since the Pro-life are unable to offer an explanation.

I will never be able to understand the position of making that decision for another woman, It is difficult for me to understand and I get upset thinking about someone forcing a woman to follow their desire.

I am a independent woman and control my life. I would not permit my husband to make that decision for me. It takes a strong man to understand that he should not and could not understand what that decision encompass.

I was raised to be a independent woman and have been financially secure in my own right and not because a man gave me the life I have. I have the right and all women should have the right to do what she feels is right for her.


 o
RE: Abortion after rape or incest or for teen mother

I understand what lavenderlver is talking about and why it's so hard for some people to let go of this issue. If a person truly believes that abortion is murder (I, like lavenderlver, don't) then they may feel that it's necessary for them to speak up and make every attempt to outlaw the practice.

In this case they would most likely feel that weren't denying women their rights; they would be actually be fighting for the right to life of the unborn.

I know people with this exact belief, and although I don't agree with them about life beginning at conception, I can't deny that they have a powerful point. They often make the argument that if the courts decided that it was OK to kill children that were already born and the majority of people agreed, should this be acceptable to our society also?

The people I know with this view also regard war and capital punishment as murder.

And to those that bring up the "lesser of two evils" defense, I would think it would be clear that most folks with this view would most likely consider murder pretty much the worst-case scenario...

Again, to reiterate for the third time, I don't personally hold this view. But, to pretend that it doesn't motivate a least a small percentage of right-to-lifers does a disservice to the entire debate. Not all people that believe that abortion is murder are non-thinkers that are led by liars, no matter what our personal morals may dictate.

What I have a harder time reconciling are those that believe that abortion is a grave sin, but would allow exceptions in the case of rape or incest; basically punishing the innocent for the actions of the evil perpetrator...


 o
RE: Abortion after rape or incest or for teen mother

After reading through the thread, I don't think I saw any pro-lifers participate. Just pro-choicers debating with each other.

Does Hot Topics have anyone who holds the "no abortion under any circumstances" position? I don't mean speculation on what people might believe based on whether they are conservative or liberal, I mean someone who has stated that position.


 o
RE: Abortion after rape or incest or for teen mother

Fifty years ago, when I got out of nursing school and worked in a small county hospital serving the medically indigent, abortion was illegal.
It was heart breaking to see all the young women coming in with sepsis or uncontrolled bleeding due to botched abortions by whom ever they could find to perform the surgery.
Or the dead and mutilated fetuses.
I have been pro choice since then and nothing can change my mind.


 o
RE: Abortion after rape or incest or for teen mother

I have written this before, but will do so again, to explain my pro-choice view.

After years of trying to get pregnant, I finally did. I was ecstatic! And, two months into my pregnancy, I miscarried, at home. I was devastated. But that blob of tissue that I flushed down the toilet was not a baby. It was a potential baby. To say it was a baby, a human being, would be saying that I had a chicken, not an egg, on toast for breakfast.

This experience formed what I feel to the very core of my being. Absolutely nothing could change it. I SAW that blob of tissue. I flushed it down the toilet. If it was a human being, I would have had a memorial service and treated that blob differently.

I can understand why people think it is human life. I just think they are wrong, after what I experienced. But, I will not try to get any laws passed that would reflect my belief in this regard. And, I expect that same courtesy from others who believe differently than I. It's a BELIEF. As such, it should not be codified into law.

It all comes down to what one believes. Not to actual facts that everyone can acknowledge and accept. Thus, all women should be able to act according to their beliefs in deciding whether an abortion is the best, albeit emotionally painful, outcome in their individual circumstances.


 o
RE: Abortion after rape or incest or for teen mother

Does Hot Topics have anyone who holds the "no abortion under any circumstances" position?

Well of course, many people do hold that position, unless you believe that the life of the mother is an exception to abortion....which it isn't. The day that a woman should be allowed to die while a baby is cut out of her body is the day we all have to scratch our heads and wonder what in the he11 is wrong with us.

This actually happened to one of my Aunts back in the 1930's, as the hospital waited for the husband to sign an authority to do a Cesarian, and waited too long. My Aunt got sepsis and died. Those were the days when hospitals were real butcher shops and people were really stupid.

But back to your question, yes Bill is against abortion, even in cases of rape and incest and I am not sure if Chase is but she got emotionally tight when he mentioned it:

RE: RNC Hatred

bill on Sat, Sep 1, 12 at 20:18:
If abortion is to be denied (as I believe it should, with the exception of risk to the mother's life), you CAN NOT deny birth control.

chase on
Sat, Sep 1, 12 at 21:31
Don't make me love you Bill ;)


 o
RE: Abortion after rape or incest or for teen mother

I think the abortion issue is, and probably always will be, one of those inflammatory issues that distracts people from what is REALLY important - not "saving embryos", but economic concerns, such as jobs, cost of living, and disparity of wealth, and even more importantly, a probable future of an increasingly unstable climate, and a virtually certain future of increasingly tightening supplies of essential resources such as fossil fuels, water, and food.

I am not pro-abortion per se, but fully support a woman or girl's access to a 1st trimester abortion for whatever reason she chooses, as many as she wants or needs, and without any restrictions whatsoever.

IMO there is nothing as fundamental to a woman's life as her control over her reproductive destiny.


 o
RE: Abortion after rape or incest or for teen mother

Dear forum members, I am a shy and sensitive lad and would never say anything that would be considered coming from a wise guy...


 o
RE: Abortion after rape or incest or for teen mother

Bottom line... overturning Roe vs. Wade would not stop abortion from happening. We've discussed this end of the issue to death, too.

All it would do is create a nightmare underground of illegally performed abortions.

Laws are only as good as the people who follow them... or the paper they're written on... which ever way you want to put it.

Therefore, as compelling as it may be to want to stop something... good luck with that. An illegality simply creates a black market with higher prices and iffy service.


 o Post a Follow-Up

Please Note: Only registered members are able to post messages to this forum.

    If you are a member, please log in.

    If you aren't yet a member, join now!


Return to the Hot Topics Forum

Information about Posting

  • You must be logged in to post a message. Once you are logged in, a posting window will appear at the bottom of the messages. If you are not a member, please register for an account.
  • Please review our Rules of Play before posting.
  • Posting is a two-step process. Once you have composed your message, you will be taken to the preview page. You will then have a chance to review your post, make changes and upload photos.
  • After posting your message, you may need to refresh the forum page in order to see it.
  • Before posting copyrighted material, please read about Copyright and Fair Use.
  • We have a strict no-advertising policy!
  • If you would like to practice posting or uploading photos, please visit our Test forum.
  • If you need assistance, please Contact Us and we will be happy to help.


Learn more about in-text links on this page here