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And... Another One

Posted by jodik 5 (My Page) on
Mon, Sep 16, 13 at 10:27

"Police believe they have pinned down a shooter who has been firing at people in the Washington Navy Yard Monday morning, wounding at least 10 people.

Police said that they believe the shooter is somewhere between the third and fourth floors of one of the buildings on the installation in Southeast Washington, but they declined to identify it further.

As hundreds of police officers from various agencies converged on the scene, officials at Reagan National Airport ordered all outgoing flights held.

Police on the scene said eight civilians were shot, along with the two police officers. One is a D.C. Metro Police officer who was shot two times in the leg, police said. The other officer worked at the base.

UPDATE: MSNBC is reporting that there could be up to three shooters involved in the mass shooting. Information is still pouring in and the media has been known to get many facts wrong when news breaks like this."

My question is... why? What causes someone to indiscriminately take lives of people not known to them?

Here is a link that might be useful: Mass Shooting...


Follow-Up Postings:

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My question is why does the NRA think that having some armed good guys around would stop these mass killers?

Surely at a Naval Yard, with two police officers present also, there had to be somebody who was a "good guy" and "armed"--wouldn't you think?

So if the NRA is telling the truth, the mass killer should have been captured and stopped before he could manage to shoot at least 10 people. But he wasn't.

Does that mean the victims, including the two police officers, were not "good guys"? Or what?

I mean, like, the NRA couldn't have been blowing a lot of hot air, could it?

Kate


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There's no point in speculating about this yet - since it's going to change moment to moment.

Here is a link that might be useful: USA Today with very basic street map


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When did the tide turn ... when it become acceptable in some kooks' minds that they can just go in and shoot people because they are mad about something? We have become what we always bemoaned about the Middle East - a nation of suicide bombers.

More guns won't stop this ... not even sure if less guns will stop this ... it is a mind shift that has taken us to a point from which we cannot go back (at least it appears so). From workplace shootings to family shootings to political shootings to totally random shootings.

Welcome to our new way of life. The only way we can possibly help is to minimize the amount of rapid fire, high magazine guns so that more people have a chance to get out of the way.


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Exactly... the updates are still coming in... nothing is resolved yet.


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I agree with you, esh; the genie's out of the bottle. "New normal" isn't reserved for the water, wind, and fire disasters that are occurring at regular intervals.

The business end of a gun should not stand as routine conflict resolution. It does though.


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I highly doubt less guns will resolve these issues... in China and elsewhere, they go nuts with machetes in lieu of guns.

The tool isn't the real issue, though plenty of folks grab onto that notion and play it for all it's worth... the real issue is why people feel compelled to hurt others when the problem is theirs... what causes these individuals to lose it and harm others, often before harming themselves?

Murder occurs without guns. Mass murders occur without guns. But if we do not address the underlying issue(s), the deaths aren't going to stop.


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I agree, jodik, I was trying to hint at that. The only issue with high magazine guns is that more people are quickly killed/injured than with a machete. Of course bombs are also bad ... but they are just a tiny bit less accessible ... I think. Now that we have plans on the Internet, that may be different too.

It is the mindset that has to change. More mental health funding, less stigma associated with it? Universal healthcare?


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But we're dealing with a firearm or firearms here - not machetes, clubs, rocks, or smothering pillows. The one common denominator is guns while the twisted inner workings of the perpetrators are as varied as the people themselves. Other than in general terms, a common reason for these events doesn't seem to be within grasp despite any amount of study.


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I agree, Esh... it would be nice if every state were on the same page in regard to firearm legalities, and it would help exponentially if healthcare were widely available to everyone.

However, we still have to get past the idea that helping others is a bad thing because that would mean everyone has to share... and you know how some people are about sharing...


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Since the genie of guns is indeed well and truly beyond the bottle, all we can do is try and start cultivating and instilling a culture wide attitude that only cowards and wimps react with guns, real men react with ..... what fists? knives? graffiti? dancing? What takes the place of the manly swagger of packing heat which so often escalates into pulling the gun and using it.

We don't know yet if this shooting is politically motivated, a workplace revenge case, or just plain nutso random. The Navy Yard is just down the road a piece from my office.

What the hell is going on with people?


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kimka: "What takes the place of the manly swagger of packing heat which so often escalates into pulling the gun and using it. "

Nothing. Especially if you watch TV or go to movies.


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  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Mon, Sep 16, 13 at 13:09

So far, seven people have been killed, one of the shooters is dead, two at large.

Here is a link that might be useful: link


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They sell guns like candy these days, And as we've seen parents give them to their 3 year olds. The NRA needs to be stopped.


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12 dead


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Gotta love those automatic weapons......


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No personal responsibility.

This is a nation of victims and the government has made them so.

It's the "victims" that go out and do things like this.

"I'm going to make someone pay."

Yea, well, we are paying with our lives and our money for losers in this society.

Just one more day of the result of someone's belief that they are some kind of victim.

Who can blame them?

Being a victim is celebrated.


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and the government has made them so.

I would not agree with that. How do you substantiate that opinion?


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Wut?


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A dozen dead, and yet the NRA will say it was the bad guys, not guns responsible. In that whole crowd of people, wasn't there one armed person that the NRA says will prevent or stop these massacres?

This country is rapidly becoming more like the volatile middle eastern countries where stuff like this happens almost daily. This is an insane way to live in this violent gun culture of ours.


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And guns are celebrated. Think of our icons- John Wayne shooting the Indians....Guns, mom, and apple pie,-rally around the flag , better dead than red.rah rah.

We've been bought and sold by the NRA and it's killing the American Dream.


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....and those who indiscriminately use them in keeping with their 2nd. Amendment rights. Another one, two or three who got to demonstrate their devotion to the Constitution.


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Hey chase, automatic weapons have been banned since 1932. When are we gonna do something about these crazy people? Liberals would just ban more guns and do nothing about the REAL problems like societal breakdown, mental illness, criminals. Same ol blah blah blah.


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Murder occurs without guns. Mass murders occur without guns. But if we do not address the underlying issue(s), the deaths aren't going to stop.

...

Of course bombs are also bad ... but they are just a tiny bit less accessible ... I think. Now that we have plans on the Internet, that may be different too.

You cannot just go down to the "bomb show" or the "bomb store" and buy a bomb. Yes, you can research and figure out how to build one out of parts.

And some people will still do that.

However, it's not something you do on impulse. By the time you have to carry out all the steps of researching, buying and building a bomb, most people will have come to their senses and not followed through.

Not at all the same with guns. Too easy to access and too easy to blow away lots of people before coming to your senses.

Yes, some people will never come to their senses and will still carry out the act to kill a lot of people. But, not as many.

I'm just so sick of hearing that people kill with other weapons. If you cannot see the difference of going into a crowd of people with a knife vs a gun, there's no point in having the discussion. And having this discussion does not mean we shouldn't also have the discussion of what triggers these things also.


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Ya know, I was going to include in my post that someone would be quick to point out that I don't know the proper terms for guns that "shoot lots of people really really fast" .......


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That's not exactly what I meant, Jill... what I meant is that if someone is going commit murder, a gun need not be handy and isn't even necessary. We have to look at and address the reasons why people do these kinds of things in the first place.

Sure, it would be really nice if every state were on the same page with firearm laws... I think that goes without saying.

But the bottom line is... if someone is intent upon causing harm, they're not going to stop just because they don't have the right weapon handy. They'll pick up the next best thing.


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On cannot dismiss the fact that the ease with which one can obtain a "kill lots fast " gun means that those intent on doing harm don't have to work very hard at finding their weapon of choice.

Even if the are intent on doing harm less devastating weapons would mean fewer dead.....


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Terms schmerms. Someone can big shot talk all the correctness about firearms names and types until the cows come home as far as I'm concerned. People at Sea Systems Command aren't any less dead or wounded.


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wow, more craziness.


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And nothing new on this forum. I knew FF would be quick on the defense, demi would blame it on the government, and Jodi would do a version of the "guns don't kill, etc." (Jodi, this is one area where we are not on the same page!)


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From the LATimes: "Federal officials have identified a 34-year-old man from Fort Worth, Texas, as the shooter responsible for killing 11 people at the Washington Navy Yard on Monday.

The shooter, who was killed by police during a gun battle some two hours after the initial shootings, was a government civilian contractor new to the Washington, D.C., area, said a law enforcement official speaking on condition of anonymity to discuss the investigation."


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More guns won't stop this ... not even sure if less guns will stop this ... it is a mind shift that has taken us to a point from which we cannot go back (at least it appears so).

I agree. If I had not started to read different forums on the internet I would have disagreed. I always thought of Rush and Fox as jokes and entertainment. I got that impression from my circle of friends and acquaintances. Not until I see the new social media how this stuff has taken hold and held as truth and dear to the heart ideas. Ideas that are not what the country and people have lived in the past.

I was punished for making fun of a girl's cloths. If I talked about people that did not have as much as we did I found out quick that was not acceptable. There was empathy before suspicion for the needy. I cannot remember growing up hearing that people in the soup lines had no personal responsibility. That training has stuck with me through adulthood.

There is so much "I got mine you should have gotten yours" that it is like heathens. When life is no feeling for your fellow man there is no order.


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Now that the 50th Anniversary of the Birmingham church bombing that killed 4 little girls has just passed (yesterday)

, I guess, according to Demi's way of thinking, the murdering KKK bombers were the victims. Somehow they lacked personal responsibility and went out and bombed a church, because it's celebrated to be a victim, I guess a victim of their own hate,

I don't know where that leaves the real victims, the 4 black girls they murdered.

Conservatives have such a strange way of turning things (words) around for their own personal agenda, I guess they are victims too, Hate to see what would happen if they took personal responsibility for all their hatred and stupidity.


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I like your perspective, Marquest, very well spoken. Thank you.


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Wut?

Tape loop.

Actual topic is relatively unimportant as long as there's an excuse to play the tape loop. Itching fingeritis -- as in engaging the tape loop before considering if it's appropriate -- provokes responses such as the above "Wut?"



Not only do we have HT participants practicing medicine without a license, they can also do long-distance diagnosis without ever having spoken with the person in question.

Rather like the elected official giving his opinion -- which was incorrect -- regarding the medical condition of Terri Schiavo.


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No personal responsibility. This is a nation of victims and the government has made them so. It's the "victims" that go out and do things like this. "I'm going to make someone pay."

I think it's putrid that you would call this killer a victim no matter what point you are trying to make.


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The only surprise so far is it wasn't blamed on 'not knowing god'.

That's not exactly what I meant, Jill... what I meant is that if someone is going commit murder, a gun need not be handy and isn't even necessary. We have to look at and address the reasons why people do these kinds of things in the first place.

I don't disagree that we as a society need to figure out why this happens. But, at the same time, removing easy access to guns that can kill a lot of people within seconds/minutes is not a bad thing. It would remove a lot of crimes of passion that happen because someone is very mad and the gun is there. And it will remove a lot of these mass murders. You cannot accomplish mass murder from a window above a navy yard with a knife. Yes, you can try stabbing people in a crowd but you are less likely to kill and will be stopped much faster than if you had a gun. Common sense. Something the NRA and its followers are sorely lacking.


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"The only surprise so far is it wasn't blamed on 'not knowing god'. "

Optimum words being .....so far


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I thought that, too, jerzeegirl. How crass to reduce this massacre to a political mantra that literally ignores a dozen dead people in an effort to revel in her own righteousness. I don't know what to say to such mean-spiritedness.


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It's still early in the thread.

No conspiracy theories yet either.


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Oh, please. "A man with a gun" killed and wounded these people. He wasn't "a man with a knife/peashooter/blowdarts".

We can't identify who is going off the deep end like this or who's going to get into what *used* to be a fistfight or who's going to react badly to burned toast.

We CAN identify a lethal weapon that is manufactured to kill: A gun. We can control guns and bring the American gun death rate down from over 30K every year -- some 'crimes'; some suicides that might have failed by other means; some kid who kills himself or a sib. OTHER nations have crazies and they DO something to keep guns out of their hands.

It's not rocket science.


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Tea Party Republicans have to stop playing the victim and blaming everything on government. Fox news needs to take some personal responsibility and stop blaming everything on Obama- They need to be responsible and stop the NRA now, or take their whining voices off the air.

Let the NRA 'cry victim' behind bars where they belong- and take personal responsibility for their crimes against humanity for profit- in prison!


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Death toll up to 13 now. The NRA is probably popping Champagne bottles and clinking their glasses.


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Does the 13th count? It's just the shooter himself ... or is that bonus for the NRA?


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I saw Fox News on this as I was getting a mammogram and that was the channel on. They were blaming Obama for not being "more sensitive" in his scheduled speech today. I thought he was quite eloquent as he always is, but he added the latter portion criticizing the whack jobs on the right about the budget talks. Plus he's hosting a dinner at the White House tonight which Fox thought should be cancelled. Exactly what would that accomplish? Invitations out, food all prepared, and cancelling would be for what reason?There are massive floods in Colorado. Should he have cancelled the events the other day as well?


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We have tried it the NRA way and things are totally out of control. Now it's time to let those who want gun control have a chance.

The problem is that, like healthcare, if it's successful (and there's no reason why it shouldn't be) then the gun nuts/republicans continue their foolish streak.


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"How crass to reduce this massacre to a political mantra that literally ignores a dozen dead people in an effort to revel in her own righteousness. I don't know what to say to such mean-spiritedness."

Having been at work all day, I started at the bottom of this thread and am working my way north. Based upon the fact that Pidge said it, I know this isn't the way she meant it. Pretty sure. That is, Pidge's post, to me, sounded like an admonishment to all of you, babblling about the NRA, "literally ignores a dozen dead people in an effort to revel in your (her) own righteousness."

And if Pidge meant her post the way I read it, the way anyone could read it, I agree.

Aaron Alexis was obviously very, very disturbed. Terrible tragedy.


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So...you posted admitting you didn't read the entire thread and took one post out of context and decided to post about that. Really? Please, try following along for an entire post for a change, and then if you have something add, go ahead. Otherwise, move on.


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the NRA is 5 million Americans, none of whom had anything to do with these shootings. It is just plain stupid to put blame on 5 million good citizens who are upstanding members of our communities. It does no good for thye anti gun extremists to label their neighbors, their doctors, small business owners, school teachers and farmers as evil people who promote mass shootings and murder. Go ahead and present yourselves as fools, further divide the country, its what ya do well.


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the NRA is 5 million Americans, none of whom had anything to do with these shootings

I disagree. Every single member of the NRA had something to do with this. They belong to an organization that turns a blind eye to gun violence, shrieking bloody murder if any measures are introduced to try to curb the violence that has overtaken this country. And the more they shriek, the more our cowardly elected officials quake at the knees, worried more about their own jobs that protecting the electorate from guns. They are as responsible as if they pulled the trigger themselves.


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Well-said, jerzeegirl, and oh-so-true. Those who don't believe that have their heads stuck in the sand.


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  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Mon, Sep 16, 13 at 19:27

How do we know all 5 million NRA members are so upstanding?


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Ditto to everything JZ said. Exactly!


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wrong again. The NRA is the largest gun safety training group in the world. They teach gun safety to millions of new shooters and youth every year. The NRA is the largest police training group in the world. They also sponsor the Eddie Eagle Program with teaches gun safety and awareness to millions of children. They also sponsor many hunting safety classes thru out the country. your ignorance of what the NRA does do is glaring.

Heck, how do we know you are upstanding? Im sure there are a few creeps out of 5 million.

Its the whining liberals who aren't interested in doing something.


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Really? Does anyone know all the details of this horrible tragedy? You know exactly where he got a gun? What kind it was? All the answers? Anyone have any sympathy for thirteen families who have received the news that their loved ones won't be coming home tonight? You want to argue politics on a day like today?

My prayer today is that these families might receive God's peace beyond our understanding.


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I find it mind boggling to think .........some on here..........
still insist laws passed can keep the crazies and evil from getting a gun.
Laws can't keep drug dealers from selling to school kids.
Laws can't keep drunks from driving and killing.
Laws can't keep men with restraining orders against them from breaking in and strangling and stabbing their estranged wives.
Laws can deter some who have reasoning BUT its easier
to blame someone.
So I noticed some blame the NRA for this incident and even went so far as to make such an ugly statement as:
****They are as responsible as if they pulled the trigger themselves**************.

I believe for our actions.......we and we alone are responsible for what we do or don't do.
Lets start putting the blame where it belongs ..........on the culprit.


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"Those who don't believe that have their heads stuck in the sand."

Better in the sand than somewhere else.

What a bunch of chumps. using a tragedy like this to promote your political agenda. No shame at all. No sense either, by the sound of it; lots of hysterical hand-flapping goin' on.

Enough of this.


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  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Mon, Sep 16, 13 at 20:34

>Its the whining liberals who aren't interested in doing something<

Factual basis for this assertion?

What, exactly is a "whining liberal", anyway?

Does sound like something Limbaugh would say, I can almost hear him.


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He was armed with an AR-15, which is a semi-automatic rifle; another rifle and a semi-automatic Glock handgun, according to a law enforcement official.

Not only do they sell AR-15s down the road from me, they have a homemade sign about 100 feet before the premise that says "AR-15s for sale, 100 feet". It's in a "gun/pawn" shop next to a gas station, surrounded by homes. As you approach the place from the other direction, there is a similar sign that says "Ammunition ahead on right."

Lovely to see on your drive to and fro.


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Posted by elvis 4 (My Page) on
Mon, Sep 16, 13 at 20:34

"Those who don't believe that have their heads stuck in the sand."

Better in the sand than somewhere else.

*

Spit out peach cobbler and ice cream.

The best comment on this thread Elvis!


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You want to argue politics on a day like today?

What an interesting statement.

We are arguing/asking for some controls on guns in this country to try and stop or reduce this kind of madness.

I think that demonstrates our compassion for the families hurt today.

The only group that has turned common sense gun control into politics is the NRA and its followers.


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You want to argue politics on a day like today?

And your sycophantic cohort was the first one to start the hysterical hand flapping by calling the perpetrator a victim.


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Posted by marquest z5 PA (My Page) on
Mon, Sep 16, 13 at 15:54

"............I was punished for making fun of a girl's cloths. If I talked about people that did not have as much as we did I found out quick that was not acceptable. There was empathy before suspicion for the needy. I cannot remember growing up hearing that people in the soup lines had no personal responsibility. That training has stuck with me through adulthood.

Marquest, Apparently you were raised by kinder more caring parents than some here.

~Ann



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So, what is an AR 15? It is simply a modern design of a semi automatic rifle which has been around for 100 years and is made of modern materials. It is used for long range shooting competition, it is used in 3 gun competition, it is used for civilian/military accuracy competition and for hunting deer, coyote, fox and other legal game. It is a modern sporting rifle. It is the most sold rifle in the United States today. It is NOT an assault rifle nor an assault weapon.
A whining liberal could be that type who would endeavor to take away a right from one citizen for another citizens action. They probably don't want to work on the real problems of society, its easier to call another group names and try to compare them to criminals. They believe the govt is the answer to all problems . It would be easy to ramble on, but you already know.
The left has lost all common sense and sense of responsibility. They try to make others appear evil due to their lack of fortitude. nThey would blame the 5 million members of the NRA for the terrible events created by mad men who respect no life nor law. They refuse to admit they have failed society. But, we will NOT be judged by those who commit these crimes, the NRA is your doctor, lawyer, auto mechanic, plumber, farmer, school teacher, your neighbor. The NRA promotes the proper, safe use of weapons and backs it up with millions of dollars worth of action to train children, policemen and others who enjoy the shooting sports. The NRA fights everyday for all freedoms for all peoples. he other side is bankrupt, they know it, its why they strive to vilify honest, hard working Americans who obey laws. The ant gun types have no credit and no legitimate argument.


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The "ant gun types" as you call them are quite the minority ... most people are fine with some form of gun ownership.

But tell me, what is the recreational purpose of any semi-automatic weapon? Why have one?


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Semi autos have been used for hunting for 100 years taking waterfowl, upland game,deer, bear, moose and all other classes of game from squirrel to varmints They are used in several classes of competitive shooting events. They are popular as plinkers and for recreational shooting. I only own 2 presently, both pistols. I will probably get a couple more next year, I sold all my others this past year when prices were inflated. Everybody I know has at least one, most have several.

Its a very loud minority and they are very good at spreading lies and misinformation to the ignorant masses.


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Its a very loud minority and they are very good at spreading lies and misinformation to the ignorant masses.

Are you talking about the NRA here?


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Really? Does anyone know all the details of this horrible tragedy? You know exactly where he got a gun? What kind it was? All the answers? Anyone have any sympathy for thirteen families who have received the news that their loved ones won't be coming home tonight? You want to argue politics on a day like today?

My prayer today is that these families might receive God's peace beyond our understanding.

WHAT!!!!!!! HUH!!!!! "know all the details" "All the answers?" "Anyone have any sympathy" BUT, BUT, BUT.......

B E N G H A Z I!!!!!!

As Demi said Good God. I swear if I had been on the Benghazi train for a year and said that. Good God I would have picked up some holy water and sat in a Confessional Chair before I went into that rant and brought God into the discussion.


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God is good!


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We don't always have to agree, Pidge... our lives are very different, and how we live them is different. I'm quite certain you'd have absolutely no use for the tools we use to hunt, trap, and maintain the existence we do. It's your right to hold your own opinion on those tools. But we do use them, and we don't want anything to happen to our right to do so.

The laws of physics tell us that an inert object is just that... until it ends up in the wrong hands. That's just a fact that can't be changed.

What are the connecting threads within the incidents in which these items do end up in the wrong hands? That's the question I'd like answered.




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Mentally-deranged ex-military guy has his service revolver and a tendency to use it when angry (apparently pretty often). Police go easy on him because of his navy connection and he is smart and good at manipulating people. Later he gets bigger guns and shoots a bunch of people because he is angry about something.

Response: should we spend time and money thinking about why so many people are angry and crazy (obviously yes) or should we spend time and money attempting an impossible task of making guns impossible for a deranged person to get (obviously not)?


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Semi autos have been used for hunting for 100 years taking waterfowl, upland game,deer, bear, moose and all other classes of game from squirrel to varmints

So what. Why on earth do you need a semi-automatic weapon to kill a goose, deer, bear, moose, squirrel, etc. It's not like they are going to fight back. Well, maybe the bear and moose might - but it's only right that they should.

It's a lame excuse for a stupid idea. NO ONE NEEDS AN AUTOMATIC WEAPON, except soldiers in combat.


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The UK has the strictest gun laws anywhere, yet it is called the violent crime capitol of Europe. Reading about gun laws in other countries, the ability to have guns or not, doesn't seem to be a factor. Australia passed very strict gun laws, yet their homicide rate hasn't gone down, simply because they had a very low homicide rate to begin with.

I did find this interesting, which might be relevant in todays society.

"The point is, the "more guns = more violence" argument and the "gun ownership = decreased crime" argument both sidestep the complicating socioeconomic, cultural and psychological factors affecting violent crime. Economic disparities within countries, along with periods of economic downturn, drive up crime and homicides, and violent crimes occurs four times more often in countries with wide income gaps. While economic prosperity tends to decrease violent crime, crime itself can depress community development, perpetuating a cycle of poverty and violence [source: UNODC]."

I guess the point I'm making, is I don't own a gun, will never own a gun. If every gun disappeared off the face of the earth, I wouldn't notice. But I do understand people believing that they do have a constitutional right to own guns, which they do. And I can't find any real correlation that the banning of guns has in any way reduced violence.

Here is a link that might be useful: link


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The more guns around, the more easily available they are to whomever wants one. For me, this is not a political subject but rather a deeply held belief against killing, save for the rare exception of saving one's or another's life. I will never fathom why anyone but those in dire living situations ever feel a "need" for a gun. It's a "want," disguised as a "right." Last I heard, most of us don't live in the lawless wild, wild west, with the need to defend ourselves at every turn. And the idea of using an automatic gun for anything, (hunting??? now, where's the fun in that?) is just sick.


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The more guns around, the more easily available they are to whomever wants one. For me, this is not a political subject but rather a deeply held belief against killing, save for the rare exception of saving one's or another's life. I will never fathom why anyone but those in dire living situations ever feel a "need" for a gun. It's a "want," disguised as a "right." Last I heard, most of us don't live in the lawless wild, wild west, with the need to defend ourselves at every turn. And the idea of using an automatic gun for anything, (hunting??? now, where's the fun in that?) is just sick.


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But tell me, what is the recreational purpose of any semi-automatic weapon? Why have one?

Some folks get off on it?

And if you're a poor shooter, it may take 3 to 5 shots to bring down the running rabbit. :)

Tell me, what's the purpose of an 850 HP Mustang on I-270? Same answer. Some folks get off on it.


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Three to five shots to "bring down" a rabbit. That's too funny, though not for the rabbit, I guess. After five shots, there's not much left of the rabbit. Oh, wait, you weren't going to eat it, just enjoy killing it.

Talk about comparing apples to oranges.

LOL Tell me, what's the purpose of an 850 HP Mustang on I-270? Same answer. Some folks get off on it.

There is no reason to have an 850 HP Mustang, on any road other than a race course, but we don't see too many mass murders committed with Mustangs. Usually it's just a drunk 17 year old killing himself and a few friends. Tragic, but not unexpected.

This would be the NRA. Its a very loud minority and they are very good at spreading lies and misinformation to the ignorant masses.


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I agree Sjerin.

.................The UK has the strictest gun laws anywhere, yet it is called the violent crime capitol of Europe. Reading about gun laws in other countries, the ability to have guns or not, doesn't seem to be a factor. Australia passed very strict gun laws, yet their homicide rate hasn't gone down, simply because they had a very low homicide rate to begin with.

And you don't think that the reason they have a very low homicide rate to begin with is because they don't allow everyone to guns?

The US has had a number of mass murders so far this year. I guess you really are "exceptional". Just not something to be proud of.


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ann, reread the post. They had a very low homicide rate before they passed strict gun control laws. So no, it wasn't because they passed strict gun control laws. They just didn't go about killing one another to begin with.


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the complicating socioeconomic, cultural and psychological factors affecting violent crime

I don't know of anyone that disputes this needs to be dealt with. But there is no reason that multiple efforts (such as reducing the amount of guns that can kill a lot of people in a short amount of time) cannot be in play at once.


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Something like 68% of your murders are committed by gun. Get rid of guns and your murder rate will go down.

How anyone can defend gun laws that allow someone like Aaron Alexis to legally own a gun is beyond me.

~Ann


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Mass killings get a lot of attention, but...it's the day-to-day gun deaths all across the country that are adding up to the 30K per year. It's not all high-power weapons. It's ANY kind of gun -- you know, those *things* carefully manufactured for killing.

In a TV interview the spokesperson/MD at Washington Hospital said we have to do something about 'this'. I wish she'd gone further, to invite the cameras into the hospital ER, where you see the carnage day-to-day, thanks to a nation awash in guns.

As for nations with gun control having 'more crime', you need to look at what the FBI classifies as a 'crime' and what is included in crime stats in other countries. We don't count 'pushing and shoving'; they do in the UK.

Every nation has mentally ill people -- and some angry people who are 'pushing and shoving'. It's the easy access to guns that turns a shouting match or fistfight deadly. Gun death stats aren't lower because some places are 'more civilized'. They are lower because the guns aren't there. There's very nearly one gun per person in the US.

Suicides are a huge portion of gun deaths. Please don't come back with some 'rationale' that suicidal people really want to die and will 'find a means'. Many attempts are impulsive acts during a temporary depression and/or cries for help. A lot of gun deaths involve the primitive brain acting *on impulse* before the rational brain kicks in...too late when the 'means' is a gun.


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And what is the NRA, an organization that thinks the only answer is to get a handle on mental health issues, what is the NRA doing about putting money into research on this issue? Is the NRA backing politicians that are furthering that kind of investigation?

Or are they just pouring money into ads and the pockets of politicians that will make sure that guns continue to be available?

Tell me how the NRA is successfully driving the conversation into at least one productive avenue. I haven't seen anything. Those guys have a LOT of money, they could be doing something.


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Jaded people have started playing Mass Shooter Bingo.

Cards have squares with: Disgruntled Postal employee, Fired Janitor, basement-dwelling teenage kid white, basement-dwelling teenage kid brown, and so on.

But nobody had 'Schizophrenic Buddhist from Texas' -


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"If every gun disappeared off the face of the earth ,I wouldn't notice".

That would be utopia , in my opinion.

If every gun nut had to work in an ER and deal with the slaughter of innocents, maybe some minds would change. All I know is twelve people's lives were snuffed out yesterday, and the repercussions of this will change 100's of others. All because some whack job who had a bad history with guns , was ignored.


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Comment Section Comment

"Wow as soon as i saw the picture i thought
"If Obama had a son....""

Hay


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"Details are still emerging about Aaron Alexis, the 34-year-old ex-Navy officer who allegedly killed 12 people on Monday at Washington’s Navy Yard. Records indicate that Alexis had been suffering from “a host of serious mental issues, including paranoia and a sleep disorder” and reported hearing “voices in his head.” He was involved in at least two incidents involving a gun and in January of 2011 received a discharge from the Navy.
But if “a pattern of misconduct” was enough to end Alexis’ military career, what would it take to prohibit him from legally carrying a gun?

A new study called “License To Kill” out today from the Center for American Progress tries to answer that question by examining how states regulate concealed carry permits. News reports indicate that Alexis received a concealed carry permit from Texas and purchased weapons in Virginia.

Federal law prohibits felons, domestic abusers, the mentally ill, and other broad categories of individuals from receiving concealed carry licenses. Many states ban additional categories of people - those who commit misdemeanors or have a demonstrated history of alcohol- or substance-abuse problems - from carrying guns, and two dozen states grant local officials varying degrees of discretion in denying concealed carry permits. In those jurisdictions, for instance, prior arrests and a history of violence could lead to a denial of application for a concealed carry permit. Arkansas, Montana, and Utah, the CAP report notes, could deny applications to individuals with “past patterns of behavior or participation in an incident involving unlawful violence” that would make it “reasonably likely” that they could pose risk to the community.

In 10 states, authorities can “look more deeply into whether the individual possesses the high level of moral character required to be entrusted with the responsibility of carrying and, in some states, whether they have a demonstrated need to carry a firearm.”"

Texas is quite different... more at the link.

Wouldn't it behoove us to actually fix the underlying causes of such incidents... instead of arguing the irrelevant?

Obviously, this person fell through a few cracks... otherwise he wouldn't have had access to legal ownership of the weapon he used.

Here is a link that might be useful: And the answer is...


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Posted by haydayhayday none (My Page) on
Tue, Sep 17, 13 at 11:59

Comment Section Comment

"Wow as soon as i saw the picture i thought
"If Obama had a son....""

Hay

*

Yea.

WHY DIDN'T HE SAY THAT?


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Oh, hay, you've gone and done it now.

Look out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Hay, your post was truly ugly and your usual hangers-on are cheering for you. Twelve people are dead and you appear to think it's a joke. Talk about insensitive.


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Hay, your post was beyond stupid ,but the usual Righties think it's funny. And they say Obama's speech was insensitive? Try making a joke to the devastated families, why doncha?


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Talk about insensitive.

Then they complain about making it political.


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cut it out, Pidge - we are world class pushers and shovers!!!

Go, UK!


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Latest update is that he did not have an assault rifle after all. A shotgun and a handgun (that he may have taken from the security guard).


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Latest update is that he did not have an assault rifle after all. A shotgun and a handgun (that he may have taken from the security guard).

You just killed the thread. Now what? No AR15?


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Why can't this country have background checks. Why do the NRA thugs try to block them from being instituted?


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Apparently Aaron Alexis was able to buy his shotgun legally the day before he massacred 12 people. Background check? Does anyone have info about this?


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JZ, there are background checks. The fact that they are not always predicative is more to the refusal of the left to admit there needs to be more restriction, control, information shared, just something on the mentally ill.

There are thousands of laws that purport to limit or control guns. None of them worked in this case.

What I haven't heard yet is when did he buy the shotgun? When did he first start to show signs of mental illness? Why was it not reported to appropriate authorities? Who are the appropriate authorities? Was he on medication?

If I wanted to be really snarky, I'd say "Why do the photos show a black man when the common knowledge is that mass murders are only committed by white men". But I won't do that.


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Hay, they don't like it when you use their tactics.

hey mom47, obviously you don't know a thi ng about guns or shooting so why say stupid things about it? It doesn't improve your image or anything like that.

The guy used a shotgun to begin his killing, wanna ban em? Too bad the extremists don't want to really do a thing except bad mouth their neighbors. Its their way or the highway. Talk about intolerant.


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But I won't do that.

you just did.

The guy used a shotgun to begin his killing, wanna ban em?

Yep.


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  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Tue, Sep 17, 13 at 21:29

Too bad the extremists don't want to really do a thing except bad mouth their neighbors. Its their way or the highway. Talk about intolerant.

LOL, you are too funny. And too intolerant. Your rants give you away every time, and your views are the extreme ones. And you are badmouthing us. We are your forum neighbors. And you clearly think your way is the "right" and only way.

Yes, he did use a shotgun, not a semiautomatic weapon, as was mistakenly reported. And he apparently used a hand gun that he took from a police officer. He killed 12 people.

And, sadly, I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that there will be no changes in gun laws in the US. None at all because of this tragedy.


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The only change which should take place re: gun laws is...enforcement of the many existing laws.

Where have I shown intolerance? What rants??

You display intolerance often and rant about gun owners yet you accuse me of the same?? That's odd. Where do I bad mouth you? I merely state facts while you bad mouth hunters and gun owners. Why are you so comfortable twisting facts?

Once again the true agenda of the left comes forth, as jerzee confesses she would ban all guns. And gun owners should trust what democrat? why?? and you think we should give 1 inch! NO WAY NEVER

This post was edited by fancifowl on Tue, Sep 17, 13 at 22:01


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Pot calling kettle black. FF, you're the biggest ranter on here. What's the NRA paying you these days?


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Never let the facts get in the way of a good story...

Here is a link that might be useful: The Facts


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Ethnic cleansing can be done without a gun. And it's easier to deny.


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It's interesting that on another thread there are numerous conservatives claiming that President Obama's speech regarding the massacre was insensitive because he followed his remarks with comments about the Republican threat to shut down the government unless the Affordable Care Act is repealed. And then one comes here and reads the really insensitive comments made by many of the same conservatives.
Twelve people have been murdered. That is not a joke.


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pidge, if you will look back on all the mass shootings, you will find one thing the shooters all have in common. Mental health issues. And all have seeked treatment. And in all cases, even though they all showed a tendency for this very kind of violence, it was never reported, and never showed up on background checks. So maybe instead of banning guns, we should change the laws whereby people being treated for mental illness should be reported the same as felons on background checks for guns.

Over ten thousand people died at the hands of drunk drivers last year. Yet we know that banning alcohol doesn't work. Neither would banning guns for the very same reasons.


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To keep it real, shotguns are not banned in Australia, or Canada. I bet not in Britain either.

If we want to eat, we need shotguns, at least for now (until all the deer and varmints are somewhat under control).


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Again, what are pro-gun organizations like NRA doing to encourage measures to prevent folks with known issues from obtaining guns?

They say that's the most significant issue but do they put their money towards it?


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mrsk, the issue you address is not what I was speaking about.

But I do agree that mental health issues are not addressed with much urgency in this country. If I recall, Ronald Reagan was president when the doors of mental hospitals were opened and very sick people were left to their own devices. When folks ask why this guy was not reported, we run into howls about the issue of personal privacy. I am not versed in the law concerning mental health, but I am fairly sure that doctors and other care-givers are tightly bound to a high level of confidentiality.

But whatever we manage to do concerning mental health, which I expect is nothing because it might actually cost taxpayer money and the tea party will have none of that, that does not mean that putting background checks in place for gun purchases is not another avenue to follow.


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FF, the rules are different here.

A position articulated to which one has no reasonable response is labeled a rant, particularly when it is one that gets under the skin of the person unable to forge a legitimate response. ;)


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According to reports, Alexis was able to legally purchase the shotgun at a Lorton, VA gun shop. The law allows a buyer to purchase a long gun - a rifle or shotgun - without being a legal resident of the state where the gun is bought. Lorton is a 20 mile hop (can take over an hour in the ever present traffic) from DC.

There wasn't anything to preclude him from making the purchase since any mental issues he may have had were not court adjudicated.


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Again, what are pro-gun organizations like NRA doing to encourage measures to prevent folks with known issues from obtaining guns?

They say that's the most significant issue but do they put their money towards it?


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Could we stop going on about mass murders and 'automatic' weapons?

This is a tiny, tiny part of the national problem of too many guns easily available, ready to make every person a murderer in an instant of IRRATIONAL anger.

I hope we will never stigmatize a person with 'mental health issues' in this wayward distraction from the real problem of too many guns in a supposedly civilized society.

What would you do -- have someone wear a sign: MAY BE HAZARDOUS TO HUMAN LIFE? Doesn't that belong on the gun? Don't we want to limit availability of this deliberately lethal weapon?

What's *really* at work here? It is irrational not to learn from gun control success in other nations. What's the problem? Not Invented Here? We're 'exceptional' all right -- exceptionally irrational.


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JZ, there are background checks. The fact that they are not always predicative is more to the refusal of the left to admit there needs to be more restriction, control, information shared, just something on the mentally ill.

Wut?

That's rich, considering the number of conservatives who have loudly proclaimed their outrage in an adjoining thread in this form, all lathered up over doctors asking the mere question of whether a patient is sexually active. Take it up with Nikoleta, Demi, et al, who appear to believe that the sharing of health records is just a huge skeery liberal plot to peer into their underpants.

"The left" has continually argued for more openness in the coverage (and more coverage!) of mental heath care issues in this country. I'm aware of very little that the NRA has done to help fund NAMI initiatives on this front, for instance. Happy to be educated on that portion of the NRA's activities, however, if such exists.


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The NRA has continually asked for more work on mental health issues, there is an article in every months magazine to that effect. They do put time and effort towards it by lobbying for better monitoring, etc. Of course, the bulk of their expenditures, especially under an administration such as this one, must go towards defense of the constitution against those extremists who would do damage to our freedoms.


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must go towards defense of the constitution against those extremists who would do damage to our freedoms.

I think YOU are the extremist.


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NRA working on mental health issues...better monitoring...etc.

As I was saying...distractions about which nothing can or will be done to negatively affect gun sales.


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Of course, the bulk of their expenditures, especially under an administration such as this one, must go towards defense of the constitution against those extremists who would do damage to our freedoms.

I would respect them more if they put the bulk of their expenditures into what they think is the real problem ... oh wait, I guess they are doing that ... they think the real problem is that someone is coming to take their guns!


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Did any of you hear this interview yesterday with Ruth Bader Ginsburg? It's her take on the Second Amendment and I totally agree with her.

Ginsburg has also been a strong proponent of gun control throughout her time on the bench.

In the wake of the fierce, nationwide debate over gun rights and gun control, Justice Ginsburg also explained the historical basis for her view on the Second Amendment.

"The Second Amendment has a preamble about the need for a militia ... Historically, the new government had no money to pay for an army, so they relied on the state militias," she said. "The states required men to have certain weapons and they specified in the law what weapons these people had to keep in their home so that when they were called to do service as militiamen, they would have them. That was the entire purpose of the Second Amendment."

Ginsburg said the disappearance of that purpose eliminates the function of the Second Amednment.

"It's function is to enable the young nation to have people who will fight for it to have weapons that those soldiers will own," she said. "I view the Second Amendment as rooted in the time totally allied to the need to support a militia. So ... the Second Amendment is outdated in the sense that its function has become obsolete."

As for the Heller case, decided by the court in 2008, Ginsburg says the court erred in its decision.

"If the court had properly interpreted the Second Amendment, the Court would have said that amendment was very important when the nation was new," she said. "It gave a qualified right to keep and bear arms, but it was for one purpose only �" and that was the purpose of having militiamen who were able to fight to preserve the nation."


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No, as usual, wrong once again. NRA is not worried someone is going to confiscate any guns. That's what the left tries to push. We do know they are working to ban sales of certain types of weapons and ammunition. We do know they are trying to compare honest gun owners to mad men and criminals. We do know they are raising the cost of all shooting sports. We do know they will create lies upon lies to confuse the ignorant. We do know they will stop at nothing to harm the American gun owners. We do know they have flatly stated they would outright ban all guns given the opportunity. That's what we DO know. we also know that anti gun types wouldn't respect the NRA, which is 5 million regu;lar American citizens,were dependent upon them to save their lives.

What is extreme about me standing for my rights?/


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I'm glad the NRA is not worried about losing their guns. I certainly don't expect that to happen either. So we are past that. And you are welcome to stand up for your rights just like women can stand up for the right to the healthcare to which they are legally entitled without undue duress to obtain it.

So why do you think the NRA isn't more proactive about funding research into mental health issues with the goal of developing solutions to how those people obtain guns? Actions really do speak louder than words.

Kind of like the conservatives saying get rid of Obamacare but then not really pushing out an articulate replacement.


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From the NRA's website:

"Since 1966, the National Rifle Association has urged the federal government to address the problem of mental illness and violence. As we noted then, “the time is at hand to seek means by which society can identify, treat and temporarily isolate such individuals,” because “elimination of the instrument by which these crimes are committed cannot arrest the ravages of a psychotic murderer.”[1]
More recently, the NRA has supported legislation to ensure that appropriate records of those who have been judged mentally incompetent or involuntarily committed to mental institutions be made available for use in firearms transfer background checks. The NRA will support any reasonable step to fix America’s broken mental health system without intruding on the constitutional rights of Americans."

Unless one is actually trying to get his information, I suppose one wouldn't know., More information at the link. No, you won't get shot at if you look at it.

Here is a link that might be useful: NRA - ILA


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I appreciate that the NRA's own website wants to make the organization look good in this regard. I'd like an objective party to tell me more about "More recently, the NRA has supported legislation to ensure that appropriate records of those who have been judged mentally incompetent or involuntarily committed to mental institutions be made available for use in firearms transfer background checks. "

What legislation? How did they "support it"?

Cause I kind of suspect they spent more trying to get rid of those elected Democrats in Colorado than they spent on this.

But I could be wrong.


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I read these posts and I feel like I am in the Twilight Zone.

I simply cannot get my head around the whole gun thing. It is just so totally opposite of how we view guns here.....and I'm thankfull that we went a totally different way on this issue.

I heard today that Starbucks has asked their patrons to please not bring guns into their stores ...... I flipped.

It never occurred to me that in 43 States the guy sitting next to me in a restaurant could very well be packing a concealed weapon.

That is just so bizarre.......


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I simply cannot get my head around the whole gun thing.

There are plenty of USians who feel the same way, but our concerns are shouted down and politicked around - up, down, and sideways.

Citizens United -- the SCOTUS decision that puts citizen-activists at an even greater disadvantage.


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"It never occurred to me that in 43 States the guy sitting next to me in a restaurant could very well be packing a concealed weapon."

Relax. The guy sitting next to you in a restaurant or any other place probably IS packing a concealed weapon. And he most likely doesn't plan to use that one on you, either.


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No, but he might use it on that nut that walks in with a weapon that thinks going out and killing a bunch of people at Starbucks seems like the thing to do today, and save your life. Just think what Alexis could have done if there hadn't been someone else there with a gun.


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If the gay man in Cleveland had been packing.....

Here is a link that might be useful: Hate Crime


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There are millions of concealed carry weapons on the streets every day. Its not those people who need to be feared.
The mission of the NRA is to promote weapons training, to support the shooting sports to train marksmen. As an aside they also work on other projects. They are directed by their membership of over 5 million Americans. I am comfortable with what we do. Their are other advocates who are better suited and able to direct attention to the mentally challenged.
I respect any business decision to ban me from spending my money at their establishment. I will be happy to spend elsewhere. I rarely carry, and never support anti gun businesses.


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So if I go to a coffee shop that doesn't support 'gun's I guess I'm less likely to be shot by someone like fanci because he won't be there.

If only I could figure out a way of not getting shot at when I hike or bike in the woods.... maybe Starbucks could open a small cart at the trail heads. Jesus they almost give me a heart attack (guns going off) everytime I'm at Lake Chabot...they're having a good old time - I guess I shouldn't infringe on their freedom to be idiots.

They (people shooting guns) just burned down my favorite hiking area for wild flowers in the Spring- ever see a Globe Lily?

Here is a link that might be useful: wild flowers of Mitchel Canyon


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Chase, I have lived here my entire life and I can't get my head around the whole gun thing either. I live in gun heaven here in PA. I am so sick of it, I'd like to move to Switzerland where my ancestors on one side were from.

I knew I loved Ruth. Hope she stays on the court for many years to come. Tough old girl.

I don't like Starbucks coffee that much. I think it's kinda bitter, but I will go there and buy something else to show my support. (my granddaughter spends more than enough there to represent our family)


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  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Thu, Sep 19, 13 at 3:26

Yeah, that's right - if people are sitting there with concealed guns in the coffee shop and somebody bursts in with a gun out and opens fire, or shoots into the building from outside - the fact that the gunman has the drop on everyone else will not prevent the people in the shop with guns from making the situation better.

And adding more guns being brandished by an uncoordinated group of random individuals to an already confusing and terrifying situation is just bound to be a help.

Then there's the possibility that somebody might accidentally shoot you while you are sitting there with your cake and coffee. A possibility that doesn't exist if nobody around you is packing.

The whole thing is fantastic and ridiculous, like we were all in an episode of The Twilight Zone - and had been transported back in time, to the Old West.

Local news station had a reaction from a guy sitting in a truck who said he would merely leave his gun in the vehicle from now on when going into Starbucks. God, I hope he'll be able to get by without it, during the 15 minutes or less he is getting coffee etc.!


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jodik 5, I hope that Mr. Wayne looks up from his meal long enough to follow this thread.
But as vgkg wrote some time ago, Mr. LaPierre is thinking "This man wasn't a bad guy with a gun, he was a confused mentally disturbed man with a gun. Mrs Tuff was just damn lucky he didn't shoot her. A "real" bad guy with a gun would not have hesitated to shoot."
I really wonder what it would take to shock law makers into legislating some measure of gun control.


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That's funny lily..Switzerland? Even the citizen militia there is required to keep guns in their homes.


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I totally agree chase. There is no reason anyone other than law enforcement needs to carry. In NY and NJ you cannot easily get a permit to carry. You need a good reason. Thank goodness! When I am in PA I think about it. I know people there that carry and honestly I don't like being around them.


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A good reason? Walk down any street in NJ and that's a good reason. :)


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Sorry but I take no comfort in the fact that the guy next to me has a gun. As a matter of fact it is extremely off putting to me.

I just don't get it and, thankfully, never will.


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A good reason? Walk down any street in NJ and that's a good reason. :(

So, how many of you actually walk down any street in New Jersey.

I would venture that 99.9% of the streets in New Jersey are incredibly safe, as are 99.9% of the streets in every state.

What makes these safe streets unsafe for the rest of us are the people - mostly men - who are carrying a concealed gun, and are determined to use it because they mistakenly believe that the streets are not safe. People like George Zimmerman.

The fewer people carrying guns, the fewer people who get shot.


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mrsk notes how much greater damage Alexis could have done had there not been someone with a gun to shoot him. Hardly a consoling message to the families and friends of the 12 dead people he managed to murder.

Bottom line: if Alexis not been allowed to buy a gun, we would not have this thread.


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I wonder if she notes that he had twice as many weapons by TAKING one from a security guard. If that guard hadn't had a weapon ... the perp would have had only one weapon.

Having guns goes both ways when the perp is determined enough.


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Not diminishing the fact that it was a horrible tragedy. But why don't people go into the same hand wringing over people who are killed by drunk drivers? Far more than are killed by guns. I know...you probably have alcohol in your house yourself don't you? Not everyone, but I would bet the majority. Now, if you didn't drink, you would probably call for the ban on alcohol. Almost the same thing. If you don't like guns, you don't mind calling for a ban.


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Very few people are calling for a gun ban. The proposals are for better control over who can buy guns, how quickly, etc.

There are laws on alcohol sales, establishments are routinely checked for their compliance to those laws and if they fail those checks they get their license to sell alcohol suspended.

Also, is there a limit on maximum alcohol content? Why not a limit on magazine size?


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There are no end of laws that prohibit the sale and consumption of alcohol....and yes there are still drunk drivers. However, were it not for those laws the numbers would be higher.

Same with guns. If there were more controls on gun ownership there would still be incidents but the numbers would be lower...and that is a good thing.

This post was edited by chase on Thu, Sep 19, 13 at 8:25


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How much controls are enough? Should there be more controls on alcohol as well, since more people are killed by drunk drivers than guns?


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How much controls are enough?

How knows? But let's get started and make decisions and refine them as we go from there.

As for drunk driving, how about a breathalyzer to start the engine? Would that help?


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Should there be more controls on alcohol as well, since more people are killed by drunk drivers than guns?

There ARE controls on alcohol. It's against the law to drink and drive and if you get caught there's the real possibility of jail time.


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Yes, this Alexis gun nut could have gotten pasted on liquor and drunk drove into that facility killing a dozen or so....or he could have concealed a machete and went in there as a mad slasher.
Anything could have happened, right?
And the problem really is the mentally ill, not the mentally ill who purchase and end up using guns.
OK.


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Posted by jerzeegirl 9 (My Page) on
Thu, Sep 19, 13 at 8:58

Should there be more controls on alcohol as well, since more people are killed by drunk drivers than guns?

There ARE controls on alcohol. It's against the law to drink and drive and if you get caught there's the real possibility of jail time.

*

There ARE controls on guns.

It's against the law to possess a gun under certain circumstances without the proper background check or permits and it is against the law to shoot people when not protecting against harm.

We have enough laws.


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RE: And... Another One

Thanks demi, jz made the point. It is illegal to drink and drive. It is illegal to shoot people under most circumstance. You can go to jail for both, but you are less likely if you kill someone with a car while drinking than you are if you use a gun.


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RE: And... Another One

We have enough laws.

Tell that to the families who lost a loved one in any one of these senseless mass shootings.

If we have enough laws, perhaps they are not effective laws or they aren't being enforced. Swap some of them out for new laws that are tougher. Prosecute those that don't enforce our laws.

We can't just sit around and say "we have enough laws" or "it's all the fault of the mentally ill people". Get off our collective butts and DO SOMETHING. Before it's your loved one that gets killed. Or mine.

It's the inaction that's killing us.


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RE: And... Another One

I'll never understand why anyone feels the need to carry a gun.

Most civilized countries function quite well with out their average citizen walking the streets armed.
Drunk drivers are a different situation. And there is probably much that can be done to lower the number of deaths by drunk drivers. British Columbia has cut drunk driving deaths almost in half because of stricter laws.

Posted by mrskjun 9 (My Page) on
Thu, Sep 19, 13 at 8:42

How much controls are enough? Should there be more controls on alcohol as well, since more people are killed by drunk drivers than guns?

Here is a link that might be useful: Link


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