Return to the Hot Topics Forum | Post a Follow-Up

 o
If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Posted by kimka z6B (jkkaplan@erols.com) on
Mon, Sep 16, 13 at 10:57

The Republicans under the "leadership" of its extreme wing, have vowed that unless Obamacare is defunded they will refuse to pass either a new federal budget or a continuing resolution to keep the federal government open.

How utterly juvenile/stupid/ridiculous can you get?

If you don't like Obamacare, a law that was passed and upheld by the Supreme Court, then have the guts to have a debate on it, make your points and convince the majority to vote to overturn or modify it.

But to hold all government services for everyone, plus all federal workers hostage because you don't like one single issue, is childish, nay infantile.

I'm not the biggest fan of Obamacare. But at least it is attempting to do something about the abysmal state of how the insurance companies are running health care in the U.S. The Repubs are offering nothing in its place, just don't try and fix the system at all.

If the House Republicans do shut the federal government down, I hope Obama shuts it all down every last bit--no exemptions unless someone's life is immediately in danger. No air traffic controllers, no park rangers, no check processors, no NIH researchers, no customs agents, no food inspectors, not one federal worker...and I say that as a federal employee who will have trouble paying my bills when I go without a paycheck.

And to add insult, now the Republicans are trying to claim that it is the Democrats who are trying to cause the federal government to be shut down because they won't defund that blasted, horrible (legally passed) Obamacare.

One interesting thought is starting to surface: just how much money is the health insurance lobby contributing to the Republicans, since they are the biggest financial losers under Obamacare?

The House has one main job: passing a damn budget every year. Get the job done instead of playing this stupid brinkmanship that ends up costing a fortune in preparations for shutdown at least once a year if not more often. Their paychecks should be docked too if the federal government has to shut down.

And then the whole cycle gets to repeat a few weeks later when the debt ceiling is reached.

This is no way to run the ship of state.

This post was edited by kimka on Mon, Sep 16, 13 at 13:34


Follow-Up Postings:

 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Eloquently said, kimka. Just what I wish I'd said!

Kate


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Ditto, kimka and Kate


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Watch the Republicans try and twist this and say it is really the President that is shutting down the Government because he won't sign such a bill. Of course the chorus will be adopted and regurgitated, without thought, by the faithful.

The American people voted twice for this President and his policies. Obamacare ain't perfect but legislation should be changed by legislation not by political stunts. Especially one that has no chance of happening.

They know darn well going into this that defunding is not an option. It is simply a ploy to garner votes in 2014 but , if the government actually shuts down , 2014 may be another 2102 but in spades.

They must really think Americans are stupid.

This post was edited by chase on Mon, Sep 16, 13 at 11:14


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

"Last week Georgia's Insurance Commissioner proudly came out as an Obamacare obstructionist, bragging that Georgia would require "navigators" - people hired to assist individuals sign up for Obamacare -- to be licensed by the Georgia Department of Insurance.

That was bad enough, but now it gets really ugly. Via Raw Story:

Georgia Gov. Nathan Deal (R)’s family and business partner have been receiving payments from a secret Political Action Committee called Real PAC. Half a million dollars of the money donated to the PAC has come from corporate health care interests which - like the governor and Georgia state Insurance Commissioner Ralph Hudgens - oppose the implementation of the Affordable Care Act (ACA), also known as “Obamacare.”

According to investigative reporter Jim Walls of Atlanta Unfiltered, the PAC hasn’t filed taxes or the required financial disclosures in two years, and the information it did file for 2011 was incorrect.

Contributors to Real PAC include Aetna, Humana, Blue Cross, United Health care and other interests that want to keep health insurance premiums and other costs as high as possible. Bryan Long of activist group Better Georgia told Raw Story that the list of donors shows who Gov. Deal really works for.

While I'm certain Governor Deal will say there's no quid pro quo, AtlantaUnfiltered proves that to be wrong:

Major benefactors of the committee, Real PAC, include health-care interests seeking tens of millions - even billions - of dollars in business with state government. One donor, WellCare of Georgia, gave Real PAC $50,000 on the same day that state Medicaid officials said they planned to extend WellCare’s $1 billion-a-year contract for two years.

Let's also pay attention to the Big Donors here: United Health, Aetna, Humana and Blue Cross. United Health and Aetna have declined to participate in state-based exchanges in states where they're actually regulated like California and New York, opting instead to hand off some payola to a corrupt Georgia governor in order for him to behave like an obstructionist."

More at the link...

Here is a link that might be useful: Getting Paid to Obstruct...


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

the Republicans are trying to claim that it is the Democrats who are trying to cause the federal government to be shut down because they won't defund [Obamacare] .

Simply amazing. Watch them just flush their party down the toilet of relevance ....


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

This so reminds me of two kids fighting, one saying, "Mom, he won't play by MY rules!"


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Throw them jail!


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Nicely said kimka.

I really just cannot understand how these morons continue to get voted in. I know, I know, morons are voting for them. So sad.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Mon, Sep 16, 13 at 15:01

The Wall Street mouthpiece, The Club for Growth, is taking a lot of the "praise" for the coming gridlock. But you conservatives need to understand that if your GOP legislator is newly elected and is far right - you are NOT their constituent, no matter that you voted for them. They are owned, body and soul, by the Club for Growth, because that's who is pulling the strings of the GOP hand puppets.

Expect a shut-down, and expect more than White House tours to be cancelled. At least there won't be anyone at the Washington Navy Yard, or any other government office.

So be prepared.

Here is a link that might be useful: Link


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

And lets not forget the teaparty insistence on drastically cutting the NIH and CDC.....

"The nation faces “potentially catastrophic consequences” if it doesn’t act quickly to combat the growing threat of antibiotic resistance, which kills an estimated 23,000 Americans each year, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention warned Monday.

In a 114-page report, the agency detailed for the first time nearly two dozen antibiotic-resistant bacteria that are causing the most harm to humans - ranking the threat of each as “urgent,” “serious” or “concerning.” Should the trend continue unabated, some infections could become essentially untreatable.

“If we’re not careful, the medicine chest will be empty when we go there to look for a life-saving antibiotic,” CDC Director Thomas R. Frieden told reporters Monday in a telephone news conference. “Without urgent action now, more patients will be thrust back to a time before we had effective drugs.”

One bacteria atop the agency’s “urgent” list of infections is carbapenem-resistant Enterobacteriaceae (CRE), which typically strike patients in medical facilities and has become resistant to nearly all existing antibiotics. Known as the “nightmare bacteria,” CRE causes life-threatening diarrhea. It has continued to proliferate and has been confirmed in medical facilities in nearly every state.

Likewise, Neisseria gonorrhoeae, which causes the sexually transmitted disease gonorrhea, has begun showing resistance to the antibiotics typically used to treat it, the CDC said. The condition, which can cause severe reproductive complications, shows up in an estimated 800,000 cases annually in the United States.

Clostridium difficile, or C. difficile, infections, which cause about 14,000 deaths per year, also made the agency’s urgent list Monday. While resistance to the antibiotics used to treat C. difficile infections hasn’t yet become a problem, the agency said the bacteria spreads rapidly because it is naturally resistant to many drugs that are used to treat other infections.

The CDC estimates that more than 2 million people in the United States are sickened each year by antibiotic-resistant infections, with 23,000 dying as a result. The agency said Monday that those numbers are conservative estimates and that the true figures likely are even greater.

The report said such infections also lengthen hospital stays and require more extensive treatment, adding “considerable and avoidable” costs to the nation’s already overburdened health-care system.

The overuse of antibiotics is the strongest factor contributing to antibiotic resistance around the globe. The more a particular germ is exposed to antibiotics, the more rapidly it can develop resistance.

The CDC said as much as half of all antibiotics that are prescribed are either unnecessary or used inappropriately. In addition, the vast majority of antibiotics used in the United States - 80 percent, by some estimates - are used in animal agriculture to promote growth and prevent and treat disease in livestock. Some consumer advocates have pushed Congress and the Food and Drug Administration to more tightly regulate the amount of antibiotics given to animals.

While Monday’s report detailed growing threats in the United States, the CDC reiterated that the problem is not defined by borders.

“New forms of antibiotic resistance can cross international boundaries and spread between continents with ease,” Monday’s report stated. “Many forms of resistance spread with remarkable speed.”

Steve Solomon, the CDC’s director of antimicrobial resistance, said in an interview that, while the agency is concerned about all 18 of the bacteria detailed in Monday’s report, the most troubling are those on the brink of resisting all current treatments.

“The ones at the edge of pan-resistance, we’re sounding an urgent alarm,” Solomon said. “We need to act now. We do not have antibiotics in the pipeline that are going to be available soon enough to address those problems.”

For those microbes and others that are increasingly resistent, the search for new antibiotics is essential, Solomon said.

“We need to invest in [finding] new antibiotics,” he said. “History has shown us the bacteria are always going to become resistant.”

If new drugs aren’t developed to replace the ones that have lost effectiveness, patients will face a dire predicament.

“We’re getting closer and closer to the cliff,” said Michael Bell, deputy director of the CDC’s division of health-care quality promotion. “When we no longer have that second-line drug to rely on, that’s when it’s a life or death matter.”

Beyond developing new treatments for antibiotic-resistant bacteria, the agency on Monday detailed an array of other actions that local communities, government officials and public-health professionals can take to minimize the sickness and deaths caused by the problem each year.

Those include more aggressive work to prevent infections, more closely monitoring resistant bacteria and taking steps to ensure that antibiotics are used more judiciously and wisely in humans and in animals.

“Only through concerted commitment and action,” the CDC wrote, “will the nation ever be able to succeed in reducing this threat.” end quote

Here is a link that might be useful: link


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

The house has passed about 8 budgets, so far. Obama or the senate will be responsible for shutting down the govt if they don't vote to pass the funding for government. I cant figure out how a democrat can ge5t elected to office, honestly. But somehow they do??


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

So it is your contention that the Senate and President should sign the bill regardless of what it includes? That they should not represent the 52% of the country that elected them ?

Interesting but not unexpected.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

So, before the big summer break, when the house republicans refused to hold joint meetings with the senate to reconcile a budget because they thought they could get more leverage closer to the debt default limit, this was called "good governance"


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

A budget that obstructs the goals of the American majority (who elected Obama TWICE--thus indicating their approval of his agenda) is, of course, going to be turned down. And resented by the majority who don't like being pressured by the tea party minority to renounce the things the majority firmly believes in.

The minority needs to accept the fact that they are a minority everywhere but in the House of Representatives. Thank goodness power in our country is not concentrated in just one part of the government--or the MAJORITY would never get their will enacted.

The minority (t-party) doesn't get to "rule." Why don't you try to just get along instead?

Kate


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

They must really think Americans are stupid.

You doubt that they are not stupid.

kimka Kudos to you.

If they shut down the Social Security and all government down we would see the Red states that get the majority of the benefits and are the most vocal in this shut the government down will come to their knees begging to impeach the president. Continuing to not understand that they are their own worst enemy.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Mon, Sep 16, 13 at 15:22

Too funny, FF. Just too funny, in a pathetic sort of way.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

the mantra will be it's Obama's fault.Why on earth would anyone think that he would sign a bill not to fund ( is defund even a word?) something he is so committed to?

The Republicans have a responsibility to help forge a budget that can pass and keep the government going......not deliberately bring it down and then say........but all he had to do is sign it !!!

A$$e$....... as are all those that find this type of governance constructive.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

So let me get this straight, FF.

Government shutdown will be Obama's fault, the Democrats fault.

And this is because they won't vote to fund the government that includes a bill to "defund the Affodable Care Act", that has become known as "Obamacare".

So you are actually saying that the Democrats in the Senate and The President of the United States should support a bill that apparently 52% of the voters, in this country, obviously supported during the last Presidential election.

Do I have that right, FF?

So from where you stand, the majority shouldn't rule but rather the minority should?

OK, now I'm missing something and I'm sure an awful lot of others are as well.

I'm trying to envision how many different ways and shapes the GOP can twist themselves into a new pretzel shape and still survive and breath.

And you ask FF

" I cant figure out how a democrat can ge5t elected to office, honestly. But somehow they do??

Could be that they use some logic, some thought process, some critical thinking skills before they decide whom to vote for and come to, what some might call, an intelligent decision before they vote.

They certainly don't just line up and vote based on what anyone says without careful thought process, fact checking and a good dose of critical thinking skills that twist everything into some kind of new design of a twisted pretzel to get the voter to believe outright lies.

Now that is something that just can't be understood and figured out, how do these GOP/Tparty members keep getiing elected.

Fear mongering, lies, twisted truths, no ability to think for themselves, no critical thinking skills, no desire to be sure what they are hearing and being told is the truth or not.
That's how those GOP/TeaParty members keep getting elected.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

What a sad state of affairs Congress has become.

There should be legal consequences for each who refuses to do their job and allow the reformed health care to take place without great obstruction. Conservatives have spent perhaps now totaling into the billions attempting to obstruct what the clear majority want, voted for and the Supreme Court declared to be a legal choice.

It is a clear waste and abuse of the tax dollars they should be charged with, abuse of their power along with acting against the best interests of the country out of fear each wont get the votes needed to stay in their jobs - the perfect example of the idea of conservative 'political party correctness' gone insane.

There should be legal consequences for each who continues to obstruct this plan which the people voted in by a clear majority in the first months of the President's first term in office.

They have abused their power, our funds and the people. I really dont care if some conservatives dont agree. They lost the election and the power to prevent health care reform.

(Another clear example of "shoulda, woulda, coulda!")


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

  • Posted by vgkg 7-Va Tidewater (My Page) on
    Mon, Sep 16, 13 at 16:48

Oh Boy! It is Football Season!
The last time we screwed around with our debt ceiling, paying our bills, budget, etc we lost our AAA rating and got clipped down a notch to just AA. I hope the tea partiers celebrate the coming rising interest rates, a real "tax" for sure (Weren't they taxed enough already?). Making a political football out of our balance sheet will get us down to an A. An A used to be good, was a rare prize for me.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Why stop with A? Follow Greece down to junk status? I suppose the ratings agencies could add some more letters, but junk about covers it.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

What on earth has happened when games like this get played and the American people are the dice?

For the life of me I cannot understand how thinking conservatives can defend this carp .Do they really hate this Administration so much that they are willing to stop thinking , stop insisting on accountability and responsibility ?

I cannot imagine my political ideologies ever allowing me to accept this type of behavior from my electeds.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

I'm waiting for nik to declare those obstructionists as "brave patriots" or something similar. "How wonderful they are standing up for Americans ...."


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Where's Marshall ?


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

This Congress couldn't pass the "Pour Water on Congress because we are on Fire" act.

They are just a bunch of clowns.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

No water! Against water Michelle wants all those people to turn into Terry Schiavo & lose their electrolytes!


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Obama or the senate will be responsible for shutting down the govt if they don't vote to pass the funding for government.

Well, there's my answer to how those morons in congress keep getting elected. By that kind of thinking. Really just unbelievable.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Chase, the answer is yes, they dislike him and his administration that much. And love, love their Big Donors. There was never any interest by repubs in helping the American people in any way, shape or form, but I don't think the president had it in him in the beginning to believe this. He does now.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

hmm 52% voted for him and according to Reuters, he has a 39% approval rating. Where have they gone? I actually think congress should allow Obamacare to go forward. It was passed exclusively by the democrats. It's beginning to look like a cluster...even it's most ardent supporters, (unions), are jumping ship. Between the wavers and the delays, who knows, other than a huge cost to taxpayers, what is going to happen to it. I think republicans should go hands off and let the chips fall where they may.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Still no kudos to Obama for not giving the unions everything they wanted?

I actually think congress should allow Obamacare to go forward.

Lead, follow or GET OUT OF THE WAY!


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

kimka, "Pour Water on Congress because we are on Fire".
Reminds me that, "Those who can - walk on water!
Those who can't - pass water!"


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

hmm 52% voted for him and according to Reuters, he has a 39% approval rating. Where have they gone?

Really? Did you also wonder "where they have gone" when your guy, Bush, left office with a 22% approval rating? The lowest rating of any departing President ever?

As a side note, it's interesting (to be kind) that you picked the lowest rating you could find (see link).

I do agree they should stop the nonsense and allow the already passed legislation to go forward. Act like the lawmaker you were elected to be. If something isn't working and needs tweaks, adjust the law. But stop stomping your feet like a child and do your job.

Here is a link that might be useful: Polls


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

jillinnj hit my mark. The Republicans in Congress, the Teaparty, anyone doesn't like Obamacare...Great. Let the hearings, debate, new proposals, amendments begin. I don't believe ANYONE thinks the deal we have now is the best structure we can come up with. It is just the one that has been passed into law (and held up by the Supreme Court) right now. Don't like it? Offer a different one. Then Congress can have a vote on it.

But shutting everthing else down because you didn't get your way, because the majority didn't vote your way, especially without offering something better in its place? Stop acting like a little child. CONGRESS, START ACTING LIKE THE ADULT LEADERS THE VOTERS ARE PAYING YOU TO BE.

What I'm seeing is the big health insurance companies are losing their monopoly to make huge profits off people and run things their own way (and yes they have a monopoly; they bought themselves a Congress back in circa sixties) that exempted them from all antimonoply and racketeering legislation). They are financing a number of conservative Republicans to fight Obamacare anyway they can to the tune of millions in campaign contributions.

Is that what you Republicans voters want...to be tools and lackeys of the health care giants?


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

"UnitedHealth Group Inc. (UNH), the biggest U.S. health insurer, reported second-quarter profit that beat analysts’ estimates, as a Brazilian acquisition and gains in U.S. plans swelled enrollment by 25 percent. Shares jumped the most in about two years.

Net income jumped 7.4 percent to $1.44 billion, or $1.40 a share, the Minnetonka, Minnesota-based insurer said today in a statement. The per-share earnings beat by 15 cents the average of 20 analysts’ estimates compiled by Bloomberg. Revenue climbed 12 percent to $30.4 billion on customer gains from employer plans and U.S. government Medicare and Medicaid coverage.

Chief Executive Officer Stephen Hemsley added almost 10 million members, raising enrollment to 45 million on the strength of the company’s purchase of Brazil’s biggest insurer as well as a new contract to cover U.S. military personnel. The gains were enough to overcome higher medical costs and lower profit margins for some of those businesses, said Sheryl Skolnick, a CRT Capital Group analyst in Stamford, Connecticut.

“They are firing on all cylinders in terms of membership,” Skolnick said in a telephone interview. “It’s a very strong statement about their ability to read what the market wants and to deliver it.”

UnitedHealth rose 6.5 percent to $70.55 at the close in New York, the biggest single-day gain since Aug. 9, 2011. The shares have increased 30 percent this year.

The insurer raised the lower end of its 2013 forecast, saying it now expected profit of $5.35 to $5.50 a share. Hemsley had said in April that, while the company continues to grow, funding reductions to Medicare may make it harder to increase earnings next year. Medicare is the government-backed insurance program for the elderly while Medicaid covers poor Americans.

President Barack Obama’s 2010 health-care law lowers reimbursements for insurers’ private versions of Medicare, bringing them in-line with what government pays on its own to care for seniors.

Hemsley told analysts on a conference call today that the “severe underfunding” of private Medicare plans will continue to pressure profit margins next year, and the insurer will exit some markets and cut benefits in others.
The cuts are scheduled to ease in 2016 and “the prospects for growth after that are quite compelling,” he said.

UnitedHealth is the biggest provider of private Medicare Advantage plans, with 3 million members. The program accounted for about a quarter of its earnings last year.
______

Stephen Hemsley, CEO $13.89 million
David Wichmann, chief financial officer: $8.5 million
Lori Sweere, executive vice president of human capital: $4.47 million
Anthony Welters, executive vice president: $7.41 million


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH) accused President Barack Obama of delivering a partisan speech Monday and called on him to help Republicans delay Obamacare.

"It’s a shame that the president could not manage to rise above partisanship today. Instead, he should be working in a bipartisan way to address America’s spending problem -- the way presidents of both parties have done before," Boehner said in a statement. "He should work with us to delay his health care law for everyone - just as he’s done for big businesses - expand energy production, simplify our tax code, and more. The president is right that we’re ‘not yet where we need to be,’ which is why Republicans will stay focused on growing our economy and expanding opportunity for all Americans."

I'm sure I'm not alone in watching with awe how the tea party has focused - like a laser, I might add - on growing the economy and expanding opportunity for all Americans.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

REPEAL OBAMACARE!!!

DEREGULATE THE MEDICAL INSURANCE INDUSTRY!!!

FREE UNITED HEALTH CARE FROM THE CONSTRAINTS OF GOVERNMENT BUREAUCRATS !!!

LIBERTY!!!

UNFETTERED CORPORATE INSURANCE PROFITS = YOU WIN!!!


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

SEGREGATE THE RICH FROM THE POOR! TAKE UNTIL IT HURTS!

Does that fit in, David? ;-)


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

I is here, alexr. I've been very busy and have not been spending much time on the internet, nor paying much attention to the dysfunctional Congressional shenanigans on behalf of corporate masters.

I'll await the single-payer system and get money out of healthcare so that we can focus on wellness care.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

An additional observation:

Our corporate masters and their congressional lackeys will not be satiated until we become so poor and indebted to the insurance companies that we shall be grateful to deed our first born to perpetual indebtness and servitude. The role of government will become the underwriter of all social costs, thus allowing maximum profits to be made by fewer and larger corporate entities.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Let them. When 2016 rolls around, the GOP can defend their insane way to deal with it.

BTW, even on Fox radio it was reported that when it's called the Affordable Care Act, 8% more people approve of it than when it's labeled Obamacare. What the hell does THAT tell you?


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Well one is "Affordable" and the other is Obama's. Obviously people prefer the former to the latter. The Republican smear campaign seems to be working just fine, thank you.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

If the new federal health care plan, with it's various levels of subsidy, operates anything like the massachusetts system, then it is about busting the cosy little collusion that exists between the insurers and the providers. The end result of the current system is that for many working people health insurance premiums are in their top 2 or 3 costs of living. The insurers and the providers make out well enough. The insurer does negotiate but not nearly aggressively enough.

Based on a recent incident that I went through, the Mass system acts as an enforcer. It pays a tiny percentage of the outrageous bill and waits for the providers to bring it on. Chances are most of them do not want to spend time battling State power, so they will begin to get their outrageous billings into the zone of reality.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

If the new federal health care plan, with it's various levels of subsidy, operates anything like the massachusetts system, then it is about busting the cosy little collusion that exists between the insurers and the providers.

Isn't that the truth. Those of us with average healthcare see the bills, see how much is charged, how much is paid, how much is just dropped. A lot of it is dropped (adjusted off). Which tells me they didn't need that money to begin with.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

"The role of government will become the underwriter of all social costs, thus allowing maximum profits to be made by fewer and larger corporate entities."

Probably true. It sounds true.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

And is it the right thing, elvis? Even "socialist" liberals don't think that it is right for the government to underwrite all social costs.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

NYT Editorial today:

" Representative Aaron Schock is a conservative Republican from Illinois, but not conservative enough for the hard-right activist group Club for Growth, which is seeking someone to run against him in next year’s primary.

His crime? In 2011, he voted to increase the debt ceiling, and, in 2012, he voted for a stopgap spending bill that prevented a government shutdown. In neither case did he demand the defunding of health care reform.

Club for Growth and other extremist groups consider a record like his an unforgivable failure, and they are raising and spending millions to make sure that no Republicans will take similar positions in the next few weeks when the fiscal year ends and the debt limit expires.

If you’re wondering why so many House Republicans seem to believe they can force President Obama to accept a “defunding” of the health care reform law by threatening a government shutdown or a default, it’s because these groups have promised to inflict political pain on any Republican official who doesn’t go along.

Heritage Action and the Senate Conservatives Fund have each released scorecards showing which lawmakers have pledged to “defund Obamacare.” When a senator like Tom Coburn of Oklahoma refuses to pledge, right-wing activists are told: “Please contact Senator Coburn and tell him it’s dishonest to say you oppose Obamacare, but then vote to fund it. Tell him he swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution.”

Mr. Schock and 10 other lawmakers considered suspiciously squishy by the Club for Growth were designated as RINO’s (Republicans in name only), and the club has vowed to find primary opponents and support them with cash - a formidable threat considering that it spent $18 million backing conservative candidates in the 2012 cycle. Americans for Prosperity, a Koch brothers group that has already spent millions on ads fighting health reform, is beginning a new campaign to delay the law’s effects.

These groups, all financed with secret and unlimited money, feed on chaos and would like nothing better than to claim credit for pushing Washington into another crisis. Winning an ideological victory is far more important to them than the severe economic effects of a shutdown or, worse, a default, which could shatter the credit markets.

They also have another reason for their attacks: fund-raising. All their Web sites pushing the defunding scheme include a big “donate” button for the faithful to push. “With your donation, you will be sending a strong message: Obamacare must be defunded now,” says the Web site of the National Liberty Federation, another “social welfare” group that sees dollar signs in shutting down the government.

Brian Walsh, a longtime Republican operative, recently noted in U.S. News and World Report that the right is now spending more money attacking Republicans than the Democrats are. “Money begets TV ads, which begets even more money for these groups’ personal coffers,” he wrote. “Pointing fingers and attacking Republicans is apparently a very profitable fund-raising business.”

It may be good for their bank accounts, but the combination of unlimited money and rigid ideology is proving toxic for the most basic functioning of government." end quote

So I guess the question, as always, is follow the money - much like Sarah Palin, fleecing the rubes is part of it. But maybe, given the people we're dealing with, look at who profits if they manage to shut down the Gvt? Do some of these people have massive short positions on the US Dollar or Treasury Bonds and stand to make a fortune should the value plummet?


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

"I'll await the single-payer system and get money out of healthcare so that we can focus on wellness care."

This, from a man who calls himself a Libertarian.

Can't fool me. I wasn't born yesterday.

Hay


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Brian Walsh, a longtime Republican operative, recently noted in U.S. News and World Report that the right is now spending more money attacking Republicans than the Democrats are. “

Fascinating. They truly are eating their own.

What a pathetic group the GOP has become.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

In this morning's Washington Post, Rep. Tom Massie (R-Ky), one of the leaders of shut the government down if the Affordable Health Care Act is not defunded, dismissed how the general public might suffer and how much might get wasted in a federal shut down, saying "All that matters is what my district wants and my district is overwhelming in favor of my position."

To which I say, has no one ever read Massie the dictionary definition of statesmanship or read him the constitution he took an oath to uphold as a congressman? I say read it to him, because I'm not sure he can read.

Has anybody seen any data on how much the health insurance companies have contributed to Massie?


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

His crime? In 2011, he voted to increase the debt ceiling, and, in 2012, he voted for a stopgap spending bill that prevented a government shutdown. In neither case did he demand the defunding of health care reform.

How is this any different than the pledge that Grover Norquest makes these guys sign declaring fealty to the Rep. party, or else. It's a shame that the party is more important that the people they are sworn to represent.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Wed, Sep 18, 13 at 15:11

Here's info on his contributors. It's interesting when you expand the lists, too.

Interesting that "retired" is in the top five. Don't they get Medicare. I wonder how they feel about the ACA.

Here is a link that might be useful: Link


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

"And is it the right thing, elvis?"

Probably not, IMO.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

It's a mindset, Mom, that most of us can't wrap our logical thinking brains around... these people collect from the very well they want to poison or make dry up. It makes no sense, whatsoever.

Yes... it appears they have no trouble eating their own kind.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Oh, it's getting close! I can't wait for the fallout .... Yes, eat their own!


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

"Yes, eat their own!"

I can't imagine what kind of mindset you were in when you posted that, Esh.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Hungry?


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Do you pay attention to the news from any source at all, elvis? They're starting with Ted Cruz as an appetizer. He conceded the Democratic controlled Senate doesn't have the votes to repeal Obamacare, but it'll get thrown back to the House for a 42nd. try anyway.

The tea party darling dug in deeper by saying even some Senate Republicans don't support the latest push for defunding President Barack Obama's signature health care law.

And to make matters worse, earler today the House voted to cut food stamps some $40 billion over 10 years which will deny benefits to millions starting in 2014. The Republicans argued it would help more people find jobs (you know, the ones the job creators were going to create). That'll go down in flames or surely get a much deserved veto.

According to Eric Cantor, "This bill is designed to give people a hand when they need it most. Most people don't choose to be on food stamps. Most people want a job."

So let them starve while they're out pounding the pavement. :-(


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Wait...raising the debt ceiling is unpatriotic isn't it? That's what Obama said.

So in 1989 the median income was 51,600 and in 2013, the median income is 51,100, but bring on even more new taxes? In 1989, the cost of a gallon of gas was 1.12, the cost of a gallon of milk was 2.34. But we want to add 1.8 trillion dollars to pay for Obamacare. Lovely.

Here is a link that might be useful: link


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

With middle income shrinking and low level jobs in multi billion dollar companies paying poverty wages and the cost of healthcare staggering out of control....why don't you cut foodstamps and eliminate any plans to introduce affordable healthcare.

That would be a good plan........for those who have.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

btw chase, the income tax rate on that 50,000 in 1989 was 15%...this year it is 25%. There is nothing affordable now. Soon, we'll all be eligible for food stamps. Who is going to foot the bill?


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Opinion piece the the WSJ:

Karl Rove: The GOP's Self-Defeating 'Defunding' Strategy

In 2010, Republicans took the House of Representatives by gaining 63 seats. They also picked up six U.S. senators and 675 state legislators, giving them control of more legislative chambers than any time since 1928. The GOP also won 25 of 40 gubernatorial races in 2009 and 2010.

These epic gains happened primarily because independents voted Republican. In 2010, 56% of independents voted for GOP congressional candidates, up from 43% in 2008 and 39% in 2006.

Today, independents look more like Republicans than Democrats, especially when it comes to health care. In a new Crossroads GPS health-care policy survey conducted in 10 states likely to have competitive Senate races and in House districts that lean Republican or are swing seats, 60% of independents oppose President Obama's Affordable Care Act. If this holds through 2014, then Republicans should receive another big boost in the midterms.

There is, however, one issue on which independents disagree with Republicans: using the threat of a government shutdown to defund ObamaCare. By 58% to 30% in the GPS poll, they oppose defunding ObamaCare if that risks even a temporary shutdown.

This may be because it is (understandably) hard to see the endgame of the defund strategy. House Republicans could pass a bill that funds the government while killing all ObamaCare spending. But the Democratic Senate could just amend the measure to restore funding and send it back to the House. What then? Even the defund strategy's authors say they don't want a government shutdown. But their approach means we'll get one.

After all, avoiding a shutdown would require, first, at least five Senate Democrats voting to defund ObamaCare. But not a single Senate Democrat says he'll do that, and there is no prospect of winning one over.

Second, assuming enough Senate Democrats materialize to defund ObamaCare, the measure faces a presidential veto. Republicans would need 54 House Democrats and 21 Senate Democrats to vote to override the president's veto. No sentient being believes that will happen.

So what would the public reaction be to a shutdown? Some observers point to the 1995 shutdown, saying the GOP didn't suffer much in the 1996 election. They are partially correct: Republicans did pick up two Senate seats in 1996. But the GOP also lost three House seats, seven of the 11 gubernatorial races that year, a net of 53 state legislative seats and the White House.

A shutdown now would have much worse fallout than the one in 1995. Back then, seven of the government's 13 appropriations bills had been signed into law, including the two that funded the military. So most of the government was untouched by the shutdown. Many of the unfunded agencies kept operating at a reduced level for the shutdown's three weeks by using funds from past fiscal years.

But this time, no appropriations bills have been signed into law, so no discretionary spending is in place for any part of the federal government. Washington won't be able to pay military families or any other federal employee. While conscientious FBI and Border Patrol agents, prison guards, air-traffic controllers and other federal employees may keep showing up for work, they won't get paychecks, just IOUs.

The only agencies allowed to operate with unsalaried employees will be those that meet one or more of the following legal tests: They must be responding to "imminent" emergencies involving the safety of human life or the protection of property, be funded by mandatory spending (such as Social Security), have funds from prior fiscal years that have already been obligated, or rely on the constitutional power of the president. Figuring out which agencies meet these tests will be tough, but much of the federal government will lack legal authority to function.

But won't voters be swayed by the arguments for defunding? The GPS poll tested the key arguments put forward by advocates of defunding and Mr. Obama's response. Independents went with Mr. Obama's counterpunch 57% to 35%. Voters in Senate battleground states sided with him 59% to 33%. In lean-Republican congressional districts and in swing congressional districts, Mr. Obama won by 56% to 39% and 58% to 33%, respectively. On the other hand, independents support by 51% to 42% delaying ObamaCare's mandate that individuals buy coverage or pay a fine.

The desire to strike at ObamaCare is praiseworthy. But any strategy to repeal, delay or replace the law must have a credible chance of succeeding or affecting broad public opinion positively.

The defunding strategy doesn't. Going down that road would strengthen the president while alienating independents. It is an ill-conceived tactic, and Republicans should reject it.

end quote

So to paraphrase the immortal words of President Obama, "Please Proceed"

Colorado will not get any flood relief funding to rebuild the roads and bridges, which as a swing state, will certainly enamor them to the tea party.

Here is a link that might be useful: link


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

btw chase, the income tax rate on that 50,000 in 1989 was 15%...this year it is 25%.

Not true.

We are currently paying LESS federal income tax.

IRS 1989 Tax Rates

Please see page 50 of the linked document.

For reported income of $50,000:

Single; Married, filing separately = 33%
Married; Head of Household = 28%

IRS 2012 Tax Rates. Please see page 105.

For reported income of $50,000:

Single; Married, filing separately; Head of Household = 25%

Married = 15%

Tax rates for 2013 remain the same as 2013


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

  • Posted by vgkg 7-Va Tidewater (My Page) on
    Fri, Sep 20, 13 at 16:56

Thx Nancy for the update, I thought that I was paying more income tax 25 years ago. Income Tax has had it's ups and downs but it's averaged higher in reverse order all the way back to Ike (70%?). We didn't like it either but were responcible enough to pay our bills back then. Beats going belly up after one last binge party.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

I was just watching Sen Cruz on Fox. I couldn't believe it when Cruz said that he expected Sen Reid to win by tricks and gimmicks like having more than 50 votes.

What have we come to, when majority vote is a "gimmick"?


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

What I thought was a real hoot was the Republicans claiming the vote today was a bipartisan vote .....1 Democrat voted with them.

Do they have any idea how stupid it makes them look to say such things?

Or do they believe their right wing conservative base is that stupid....... actually, they may have a point.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Or do they believe their right wing conservative base is that stupid....... actually, they may have a point.

They know they are. They rely on it. It's the only way they get reelected.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Ah chase, do you mean like the democrats claimed a bipartisan vote on Obamacare?

They voted to fund the government today. What are you griping about?


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Well, they've cooked their own goose now despite some rather influential people warning against it.

I hope that when each of these folks are up for re-election, either in 2014 or 2016, their opponent takes out an ad that says this Congressman/woman would rather quit than work when the going gets tough. Cause that's just what they did.

And it doesn't matter to them that the US loses their credit rating, that millions of people will go without a paycheck ... none of the consequences matter to them. Selfish politics.

I'd say shame on them but it doesn't seem strong enough.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Why am I not surprised that MsK hasn't acknowledged that she posted false information in this thread?


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Ah chase, do you mean like the democrats claimed a bipartisan vote on Obamacare?

Would you please provide a legitimate source for that statement?


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Who voted to fund the government today? Not the House! You must've misunderstood them. They voted to shut down the government today because they have a conditional requirement that they know won't be met.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

I didn't nancy...I just don't feel like a big back and forth with links. I know how you love to copy and paste, so run with it.

Wrong esh. They voted to fund the government today, you can ck all the news organizations.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Sorry, mrskjun, you've been fooled.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

mskjun, so are trying to be cute with an exercise already ripe with bitter fruit of partisanship. A spending bill must be passed through the Senate which has the right and obligation to amend or pass as is. Then the spending bill, with Senate language returns to the House which then gets to accept or reject or co-edit language acceptable to both Chambers. The House votes out the bill for the President's signature.

We already know that the House has included a Poison Pill sure to doom the process and so will be responsible for the closure of the Federal government.

This is not even good Kabuki Theater. More like a Tom and Jerry cartoon from the 1930's,


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

MsK, no copying nor pasting -- just links to the source documents at the IRS site.

Whatever your source, you should forward the correct information so no one else passes on erroneous information.

I just don't feel like a big back and forth with links.

Now you're implying that there are two truths to IRS tax rates -- still carrying on with the disinformation.

It is impossible to dispute what I wrote. I linked to the IRS documents.

There is certain information that is not open to interpretation, and IRS tax rates are an example.



Go on and admit it -- you were snookered once again by some crazy right-wing site.

The truth will set you free.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

I still don't understand why more people aren't publically (and loudly) demanding that if the Republicans don't like the Affordable Care Act Law, they bring it up in Congress and propose something better. It is a separate issue from passing a budget right now to keep the Federal government open and then addressing the debt ceiling.

Or don't they have a better idea? Maybe they think the previous status quo was just fine with 14 percent average increases in the cost of health insurance each year. Or maybe the big health insurance companies think so for them.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

"Maybe they think the previous status quo was just fine with 14 percent average increases in the cost of health insurance each year."

Maybe the cost of medical services should be addressed first. Obamacare is putting the cart in front of the horse.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

I said the House voted to fund the government marshall. The senate is full of democrats, we'll just see what they do.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

kimka, I'm with you.

Why Americans aren't screaming for Congress to do their job is beyond me.

If you don't like a law then you either work to amend it to be more effective or you offer up an alternative solution. You don't play stupid games that cost the American people money and time while failing to move the issue forward.

It can only be that they don't have an alternative plan OR their benefactors control your legislature. OR that their desire to thwart their President is so powerful they can't see past it OR all three!

For the life of me I don't understand those who elected them and support them. How anyone can look at what is happening and call it good governance is mind boggling.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Like liberals want to hear about an alternative solution, uh huh.
HR 3121


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

The American people would want to hear about it.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

I'm not familiar with the contents of that Bill. Specifically what alternative health care solutions did it contain?


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

oh, do you mean this one? Tabled just two days ago and referred to committee by the Republican Speaker?

"09/18/2013 Referred to the Committee on Energy and Commerce, and in addition to the Committees on Ways and Means, Education and the Workforce, the Judiciary, Natural Resources, House Administration, Appropriations, and Rules, for a period to be subsequently determined by the Speaker, in each case for consideration of such provisions as fall within the jurisdiction of the committee concerned."


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

The link....

Here is a link that might be useful: Overview: H.R.3121


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Even if I were a Republican, I'd expect my representatives that were clamoring to replace something to be out front and clear about what and how quickly they plan to replace it. The healthcare issue has gotten enough discussion now that it is no longer acceptable to go back to doing nothing about it.

I would hope that real Republicans (and those that declare themselves Independent but who really vote for republicans) would similarly have such expectations.

Tell us what you're gonna do so that we have something to reach for. So far, they are NOT doing that. And I think you know that mrskjun.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

You mean because they haven't spent the millions pushing their plan like Obama has, it's not worth considering? Of course they could talk to the union leaders, they look like they might be ready for anything but Obamacare.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Will you ever admit that the politicians that you vote for are not doing a good job in how they are dealing with the healthcare issue?

Have they spent ANY money or taken any time as a party pushing a single replacement idea?


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

I think we already know the answer to that, Esh... no, they haven't.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

i suspect they have spent as much or more money trying to kill Obamacare as has been spent to promote it.

Wonder why they didn't put this on the table as an alternative earlier? Wonder why they haven't even mentioned it in all their rhetoric about defunding Obamcare? Wonder what else is attached to it? Wonder why the phrase "and for other purposes" means?

Wonder why they have not shared their plan with their base?


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

esh...I want health care reform. I want deliberative health care reform. I don't want a bill that you have to pass in order to read it or understand it. I don't want a bill that even those who passed it don't understand . Reform that doesn't cost the taxpayers almost 2 trillion dollars and out of the other side of your mouth telling the taxpayers how you are saving them money. I want reform that my dr can understand and be on board with as well. Objectively, the ACA looks like a train wreck, not reform.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Will you ever admit that the politicians that you vote for are not doing a good job in how they are dealing with the healthcare issue?

Hmm?


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

  • Posted by vgkg 7-Va Tidewater (My Page) on
    Sat, Sep 21, 13 at 9:44

The choices we have are either Obamacare or Repubsdonotcare.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Name me one politician in Washington that is doing a good job dealing with the healthcare issue esh? Obama has nothing to do with ACA...he handed that off to Nancy Pelosi from day one, and who knows who she handed it off to, because she doesn't have a clue what's in it.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

We're talking about the politicians that you voted for.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Esh, It would be difficult for anyone who voted for some of these republican clowns to defend their vote.

~Ann


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

I get out and vote esh, doesn't mean I'm well represented. I did not vote for Obama, I did not vote for David Vitter. I did vote for Steve Scalise, but I don't feel that he represents me for the most part. So, I actually don't have a voice in Washington at the moment. Wonder if I could trade with someone.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Big Mess

"He said raising the debt ceiling doesn't cost a dime and doesn't add a penny to the deficit.

It does, however, permit more borrowing by the U.S. Treasury which does add to the national debt,now at an all-time high of over $16.7 trillion. The debt has increased more than $6 trillion since Mr. Obama took office....

Unsustainable Budget

"U.S. on ‘unsustainable’ budget course: CBO"

Unsustainable

un·sus·tain·a·ble
ˌənsəˈstānəbəl/
adjective
1.
not able to be maintained at the current rate or level.

Hay


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Obama has nothing to do with ACA...he handed that off to Nancy Pelosi from day one, and who knows who she handed it off to, because she doesn't have a clue what's in it.

Is that what they are telling you in the land where you live?


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

So, I actually don't have a voice in Washington at the moment. Wonder if I could trade with someone.

You can't trade with me. I don't have one either. Both my Senators are Republican and my Congressman is too. None of them represent how I feel and they really don't care that they don't.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

jz, if you didn't already know that, then I would say....I live in the REAL world.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Is the income gap and wealth disparity in this country sustainable?

Here is a link that might be useful: Could America's Wealth Gap Lead To A Revolt?


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Actually the figures I heard on the pundit shows today (Saturday) are that the anti Affordable Health Care Act forces have spent five times the amount supporters have spent in the last three months. I can't substaniate the numbers, but sounds about right.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

And they could using that money for food stamps ... :P


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Doing a bit of surfing and came up with this - didn't check to see if it, or the complete article surrounding it, was linked here before.

FTA: Groups That Fund anti-Obamacare Campaigns and Influence Elections...

The following groups (or the interests funding them) all stand to lose billions from health care reform. These groups have all directly or indirectly spent millions on Anti-Obamacare campaigns aimed at repealing Obamacare. This list represents groups that supported anti-ObamaCare campaigns leading up to the 2012 elections.

Aetna: $3.3 million to American Action Network (AAN) headed by former Republican senator Norm Coleman (R-MN)' Aetna also gave $4.5 million in 2011 to the Chamber of Commerce which funds Anti-Obamacare campaigns.

AHIP (American Health Insurance Plans): This health insurance super lobby gave $87 million to unnamed advocacy organizations for "grassroots outreach, education and mobilization, print, online, and broadcast advertising and coalition building efforts". This was done while they were discussing a deal in support of Obamacare with the white house. At that same time the Chamber of Commerce reported receiving $86.2 million (documented on a 2009 IRS filing) from an unnamed organization. This happened again in 2010 for an amount of $16.2 million. This accounts for 8.6% of total contributions and grants the chamber received for 2010.

ALEC: A Koch Brothers funded group that goes after Healthcare and other Government run services due to their Libertarian stance of Limited Government, Free markets and Federalism. They write laws that benefit corporations and fight against public interest.

Americans For Prosperity: This Koch Brothers funded group spent $9 million attacking Obamacare the day after the supreme court ruling.

Chamber of Commerce: Reported to have received hundreds of millions of dollars to fund Anti-Obamacare campaigns.

Crossroads GPS: Karl Rove's 501 (c)(4) political group donated $3.7 million to the NFIB which used to money to fund Anti-Obamacare campaigns.

Elliott Management: This Hedge Fund (what Mitt Romney means when he says "small business") directed by Paul Singer gave $3.4 million to Republicans this election season (helping get Paul Ryan in the position of VP). They donated $1,650 to the Democratic party.

Health Care Now: $6 million dollar Anti-Obamacare ad campaign. This group made $2 million the year they spent $6m on the ads, the year before they made less than a million. They don't have disclose who gave them the money. However this media blitz came just before the supreme court ruling.

Koch Industries: David and Charles Koch, billionaire businessmen and oil men pledged $60 million to conservative efforts to defeat President Obama and his policies.

NFIB (Nat'l Federation of Independent Business): Spent $10 million between 2010 and 2011. $8 million was donated by only 4 contributors. The year before their biggest contribution was $21k.

Here is a link that might be useful: Interesting read


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

I think the republicans are all wrong. Sure the majority of people are against Obamacare, but as you have seen, Obama becomes absolutely hysterical over the fact that someone might tell him no. I think the republicans should throw up their hands, let Obamacare be implemented just the way dems want it and stick around to pick up the pieces. They will be a shoo in for 2014 and 2016. All they have to say is, we didn't vote for it, we tried to stop it.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Mrs, President Obama has never gotten absolutely hysterical about anything. What a silly thing to say.

Obamcare was passed and signed into law, the Supreme Court ruled it constitutional, the people of the Unites States voted President Obama a second term even with Obamacare as a central issue.

The people who need to get over it and stopping acting like little children is the right wing faction of the GOP.

You want to change it for the better than do so constructively through the legislative process.

...and don't be so sure about 2016. The way the Republicans are alienating the Independent voters and minority voters almost guarantees the WH will go to another Democrat.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Thats a point. If its so awful, then let it happen and everyone will be convinced. The republicans will sweep the next national elections.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Mrs, President Obama has never gotten absolutely hysterical about anything. What a silly thing to say.

Indeed. An asinine statement since there is no instance where our President has become "hysterical". It seems some people say things just to say things that have no basis in reality.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

It seems some people say things just to say things that have no basis in reality.

The scary part is it is probably true in their reality, which is not the reality most of us live in. Most of us realize that the President was REELECTED. Reelected by a pretty wide margin, even though those in the alternate reality tried really hard to sell us on the impending disaster of ObamaCare. It didn't work, but they still stick to the alternate reality.

David - fascinating chart. Doesn't speak well for the American people's intellect or knoweledge. But, then we know that those that get their news from Fox know less than those that don't watch the news.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

But, then we know that those that get their news from Fox know less than those that don't watch the news.

And we know how many liberals on this board keep up with FOX, since they quote them quite often. I guess nobody has noticed his poll numbers lately? Or the fact that now among independents, 60% do not want Obamacare. And if you don't think he gets hysterical, you must not have seen his speech before the congressional black caucus.

Besides, I'm agreeing with you. The republicans should just shut the heck up and let Obamacare be implemented. Either it will turn out to be as wonderful as some of you think, or it's going to be a train wreck, like the majority of people think. Whichever, will be reflected in the next elections.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Or the fact that now among independents, 60% do not want Obamacare.

I just saw the poll yesterday too, was it Charles Blow's column?,and when they ask another question it turns out a good percentage of those people wanted Obamacare to go further. When you mention polls you really need to be more specific regarding the questions asked.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Hysterical ?? You need to look up the meaning of the word.

I will be the first to admit I check out FOX as well as Breibart and a few other right leaning sites. I also check the CBC BBC and several international sites and Al Jazeera America.

I like to get all the info I can and I find that in getting it from many different sources I am able to formulate an informed opinion.

The other reason I checkout FOX and Briebart et al is to get a leg up on what Obama outrage I'm going to see posted here.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

We don't have to watch Fox News, mrsK. We see the talking points spewed by them every day right here.

And your quoting a poll, then only to be shown the true meaning of that poll by JG, is the perfect example. Taking little sound bites and repeating them does not make one knowledgeable.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

I guess nobody has noticed his poll numbers lately?

I guess MsK does not know the difference between the public's reaction to ACA and the proposed military action against Syria.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Oh right nancy...his approval rating on the economy is 41%, should have mentioned that. It's so much better than the 37% approval on his foreign policy.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

I must say, the discombobulated Obama-can-never-do-right response to the unfolding Syrian crisis was somewhat amusing.

And now back to your well funded, orchestrated defense of mega-millionaire insurance executives and their stranglehold on the American Health Care System, brought to you by people who don't have a clue whose battle they're fighting.

/Why should the CEO of United Health Care be "limited" to $11 million a year, when he was pulling down 10 times that before Obamacare came along?

// To the ramparts!!! Bring back their freedom!!!


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Here is the Charles Blow article. I am not sure if it's behind a paywall. Here's the gist. Of the 51% people who oppose healthcare, when asked if they oppose it because the approach is too liberal or not liberal enough, 16% responded that it was not liberal enough. To me that puts things in a different light.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

.his approval rating on the economy is 41%,

And how of much of the nonapproval is because there are no additional stimulus programs?

MsK continually makes the mistake that if President Obama's approval ratings are low it must mean that the GOP's policies are more favored. It is not true with ACA -- as has been pointed out to her for numerous times -- and it is not true with other legislation, policies, etc.

When the not-Obama candidate was offered to the voters in 2012, he was rejected.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

MsK continually makes the mistake that if President Obama's approval ratings are low it must mean that the GOP's policies are more favored.

Let's be clear -- that only applies when it is President Obama. Somehow I don't think she felt the same way -- that the democrat's policys were better -- when her favorite guy W left office with a 22% approval rating. The lowest any President ever left office with.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Let me say again how excited I am that the House voted to shutdown the government. I look forward to their opponents using that vote against them in the election ahead ... including that Democrat.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

But esh...if it's all about truth, the truth is, that the house voted to fund the government so it wouldn't be shut down. They simply refused to fund Obamacare. Now it's up to the senate.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Sun, Sep 22, 13 at 19:59

And the President promised to veto the bill.

Name one President who has "agreed to defund" an important program, passed by the House and Senate and signed by the President, during their administration?

Name ONE.

The selfish, stupid behavior of the GOP, and their sheeple, should ultimately get them what they deserve - irrelevance.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

The House knew very well that neither the Senate nor the President would go along with defunding Obamacare. Therefore, their vote is effectively one to shut down the government.

And I didn't say anything about truth. But now that you mention it, you are not being truthful with yourself on this item.

Most of Americans are not nearly as dumb as you are pretending to be on this topic. They know what really happened.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

A new poll done for Republican members of Congress has found huge public opposition, and solid opposition among Republicans, to the idea of shutting down the government over the issue of funding Obamacare.

In a national survey of 1,000 registered voters done July 31 and August 1, the question, from pollster David Winston, said, “Some members of Congress have proposed shutting down the government as a way to defund the president’s health care law” and asked respondents whether they favored or opposed that plan.

Overall, 71 percent of those surveyed opposed a shutdown, while 23 percent favored a shutdown. Among Republicans, 53 percent opposed, versus 37 percent who favored.

Winston found a huge gender gap among Republicans. Republican men favored a shutdown by a narrow 48 percent to 44 percent margin. But Republican women opposed it by an enormous 61 percent to 29 percent margin.

Among Republicans who called themselves conservative, those who said they are very conservative favored shutdown by 63 percent to 27 percent, while those who said they are somewhat conservative opposed shutdown by 62 percent to 31 percent. Overall, Republicans who call themselves conservative were evenly split on the issue, 46 percent to 46 percent.

Conservative Republicans make up about 19 percent of the entire electorate. Of that number about nine percent call themselves very conservative, while ten percent say they are somewhat conservative. What the poll suggests is that even that conservative cohort is deeply split on the defunding initiative.

Winston also did a generic ballot test. Among people who say at this point that they plan to vote for the Republican candidate in 2014 - regardless of who it is - 51 percent said they opposed a shutdown, while 40 percent favored it. “What has to be concerning here is the fact that more than half the people who are presently voting for a Republican oppose this idea,” Winston told me. “If you’re concerned about what it might look like in terms of a general election, if half the voters who say they are going to vote for a Republican candidate oppose this, then you are creating a conflict for them to vote for a Republican candidate.”

Proponents of defunding will likely challenge the premise of Winston’s question, arguing that defunders are not proposing to shut down the government but rather want to fund all government operations other than Obamacare. But there is no doubt defunding advocates anticipate a possible shutdown; their hope is to persuade the public to blame President Obama, and not Republicans, for it. The new numbers suggest they will have a lot of persuading to do. end quote

Here is a link that might be useful: link


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

I would love to see them ask that question. Of course they won't.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

We will see when the Senate sends the bill back , minus the removal of funding for the ACA, what the House will do.

I suspect they will huff and puff and pass it anyway...swearing to take up the battle again with the debt ceiling.

The more they do this the more they alienate voters who want Washington to get to work and stop playing games...the party of stupid.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

The more they do this the more they alienate voters who want Washington to get to work and stop playing games...

Absolutely.


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

JZ--Let's see if I understand clearly your point. The 51% of voters opposing ACA (Obamacare) is a misleading number since only 35% of them would presumably agree to abolishing Obamacare. The other 16% would amend Obamacare to make it even more liberal (and thus more hated by the conservatives/t-partiers/Republicans).

So the 51% figure includes those who think Obamacare does too much, as well as those who would make it do much more than it currently does--right?

Ah, so only a little over one-third of the voters back the Republican position.

Interesting how some posters try to create a false impression by collapsing the opposition position into their conservative position. Definitely misleading use of statistics.

Kate


 o
RE: If Obamacare is not defunded, shut down the government

Ah, so only a little over one-third of the voters back the Republican position.

And of those, we know that some of them feel that way because they don't understand it and in fact some change their opinion after getting more facts ....

Edited for typo ... off to get a second cup!

This post was edited by esh_ga on Mon, Sep 23, 13 at 8:58


 o Post a Follow-Up

Please Note: Only registered members are able to post messages to this forum.

    If you are a member, please log in.

    If you aren't yet a member, join now!


Return to the Hot Topics Forum

Information about Posting

  • You must be logged in to post a message. Once you are logged in, a posting window will appear at the bottom of the messages. If you are not a member, please register for an account.
  • Posting is a two-step process. Once you have composed your message, you will be taken to the preview page. You will then have a chance to review your post, make changes and upload photos.
  • After posting your message, you may need to refresh the forum page in order to see it.
  • Before posting copyrighted material, please read about Copyright and Fair Use.
  • We have a strict no-advertising policy!
  • If you would like to practice posting or uploading photos, please visit our Test forum.
  • If you need assistance, please Contact Us and we will be happy to help.


Learn more about in-text links on this page here