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The first debate

Posted by david52 z5CO (My Page) on
Thu, Sep 27, 12 at 12:08

is being held at Denver University, located in a high-population density, narrow street area where parking and traffic is a real hassle to begin with. It looks as if they are going to shut down traffic for a mile around the venue, including I25, the major north/south artery through town - as well as some of the other main roads.

During rush hour.

Is all that necessary?

Here is a link that might be useful: link


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: The first debate

I assume it is because of security. Less access less chance of a security breach.

Is this a open venue that you can get tickets to attend? If so are you planning to try to get tickets?


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RE: The first debate

The debate is not open to the public. Any debate tickets allocated to the University by the Commission on Presidential Debates will be distributed to University of Denver students randomly via lottery.

Don't know who else gets in besides news people and their crews. Largely a TV event.


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There were no less disruptive options? Who decided it had to be Denver? This is a pretty big country.


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Colleges and universities have to apply to the Commission on Presidential Debates to hold the debates.

I suspect college/university campuses are the chosen venues to get students interested in modern day politics - they're a block of voters those running for office do well to court.


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Going to pack the audience withe people to boo the questions?


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Denver University is bucked, thinking the publicity will get them new students who can pay the full rates for tuition and room and board.

/they usually have a good Division I hockey team.


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Aside from Division I hockey, I suppose Centre College in Danville, KY, Hofstra in Hempstead, NY, and Lynn University in Boca Raton, FL could say the same.

My thinking is that they've got to be held somewhere besides a pitched carnival tent. What's the big deal?


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Is there a website to email in questions ? I'd like to ask them both if it costs more to jail someone than put them on welfare why are the jails filled up with pot smokers in the failed war on drugs ? Or why are companies like Boeing given big government contracts paid for by taxpayers allowed to manufacture their planes in foreign countries when jobs are desperately needed here ? I expect we'll get more useless blather on tax cuts , gay marriage , abortion , etc. other than real solutions to issues which might actually help the economy a bit .


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I would think it a lot easier to simply hold debates in a tv studio... especially given that most folks will be watching via television.


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Criticism Greets List of Debate Moderators:

Fox News, which is the only independent television network that has not been selected to have one of its anchors host a debate, made an aggressive push this year. The commission sent signals that the network was in strong contention, people familiar with the process said, but that changed in the last month. The Obama campaign raised questions about the network because of its conservative leanings. The Romney campaign objected to MSNBC because of its liberal bent and threatened to boycott if one of its anchors was selected.

What?


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Advance press of Romney's poor performance:

Washington (CNN) - If it wasn't already clear that Mitt Romney and his allies are trying to lower expectations heading into next Wednesday's debate against President Obama in Denver, the campaign is now making it official.

In a memo about the debates distributed to campaign surrogates and provided to CNN on Thursday, longtime Romney adviser Beth Myers outlines a series of reasons why the president is likely to emerge as the winner of the first debate.

But will the American people get the "memo"?

Here is a link that might be useful: source


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longtime Romney adviser Beth Myers outlines a series of reasons why the president is likely to emerge as the winner of the first debate.

Hoping that Romney performs better than advertized? If he's less than terrible, he scores points?


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Interesting that they are already trying to make excuses for Romney in the debates. At the same time I suppose they think they are raising the bar for the President. Quite frankly I am worried that the expectations for the President to out preform are so high that he will fall short in some peoples eyes. He's good though, he's darn good, so we'll see.

I found this comment of Romney's last week quite telling

"I think the challenge that I'll have in the debate is that the president tends to - how shall I say it? - say things that aren't true," he told ABC News. Speaking about how to tackle his opponent, Romney said he did not know whether he would spend his time "correcting things that aren't quite accurate" or "talk about the things I want to talk about".

Besides basically calling the President a liar, I found the last line interesting. Seems to me he is setting the stage for NOT directly challenging the President in the true spirit of debate. Rather he is going talk what he WANTS to talk about, questions and the principals of debate be d@mned!

There is nothing that bugs me more in debates, and interviews for that matter, as ignoring the question and just regurgitating the official "talking points"


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There is nothing that bugs me more in debates, and interviews for that matter, as ignoring the question and just regurgitating the official "talking points"

Wasn't that a Sarah Palin specialty?


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  • Posted by vgkg 7-Va Tidewater (My Page) on
    Fri, Sep 28, 12 at 10:25

Romney's flip-flopping time frames are growing shorter and shorter. His biggest challenge will be to not flip-flop within 90 minutes.

All Obama has to do is to avoid saying something like he hates white people...though Limbaughdomy and Fox will report that he did anyways.


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And on Fox the spinmeisters will play into the Everybody Gets a Trophy Syndrome.

I would like to watch a good debate and not 90 minutes of excruciating pain. Somehow though, with the time frames allowed for answers, I see Romney going off script... which for him is a dangerous thing to do.


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Esh, I think it's a Republican specialty, not necessarily reserved for certain political characters.

And I fear Duluth is right... if excuses are already circulating, or being drawn up behind closed office doors, then the final words will be somewhere in the realm of victimhood.


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If you can you break Romney of his nervous laughter it could help. If he is the only one laughing nervously it's not quite the same as Reagan did bringing folks in on a lame joke as they do in those lame celebrity roasts.
Glad handers like Clinton & Reagan always come up better than nervous nellies like Romney or kool smooth operators like Obama!


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Even our First Lady, Michelle, describes her husband as very steady, very measured, whether we're talking about verbal responses, or about thinking things through to conclusion. So, I would expect him to be calm, collected, and carefully choosing the right wording that best explains what he wants to get across to listeners... minus any nervous giggling.

I would expect it to be much more difficult when a person doesn't have a good command of the issues, is not very good at public speaking, and can't... for all intents and purposes... allow his true feelings to show through. In such a case, he should be the one more carefully choosing his wording, which would fall to his handlers and speech writers, but they always seem to muck it up. Either that, or Romney simply doesn't think he needs writers for the help... though he really does.


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Is Obama going to be allowed a teleprompter? A joke.

Obama is as bad as Romney when going off the lines.

They both make bad gaffs.

This debate is so very important, I hope there nothing
to disrupt either candidate.

I also hope they have chosen unbiased moderators but I
don't see how that could be possible since most news
persons are liberal slanted.

A moderator can tip a perception of one by just a voice
inflection.

I am cynical on anything political. Nothing is fair.


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Do you want crackers with your whine, CW?


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These debates are a farce.

Too bad that Presidential/Vice Presidential debaters aren't required to follow the same rules as High School or College contestants. No interrupting, answer the questions at hand, etc. Every political debate I've ever seen would have been judged very harshly by the sponsors.

I suppose then nobody would agree to participate...


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Welcome huachuma!

I find it interesting the excuses for Romney are are being made already . Facts are I believe the minds of most, absent some huge event, are already made up. The electoral vote needs huge swings to matter much. I don't think that kind of uncertainty exists in people minds. The lives are drawn.

As an aside its interesting to note that the polls today are just about where they were at this time Obama/McCain...Obama was slightly more ahead but not much.


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It must totally escape some people that most or all politicians use teleprompters, at one time or at all speaking engagements. How can so many Republicans miss that fact?


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Posted by huachuma Z9 CA (My Page) on Fri, Sep 28, 12 at 16:46

"These debates are a farce.
Too bad that Presidential/Vice Presidential debaters aren't required to follow the same rules as High School or College contestants. No interrupting, answer the questions at hand, etc. Every political debate I've ever seen would have been judged very harshly by the sponsors.

I suppose then nobody would agree to participate..."

________________

Farce? If the debates were ever funny, I would agree. Mostly they're just tiresome and frustrating.

I agree that the debates would benefit greatly if they were governed by the rules Huachuma mentioned. Expanding on that, "news" shows would also be much improved if they would stick to the subject at hand, facts only, no opinions, reserving those for discussion programs.

Would anyone participate? I think they would.


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I don't have any misgivings about Romney's performance
in the debates.

Isn't it the left that is always touting "the level
playing field". The level playing field should most certainly be in the debates.

I think Romney can hold his own BUT a moderator can put a slant on a debate if they choose.

Obama owns the MSM. Can it be considered a level playing field?


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Except that both candidates had to agree to the moderators and all the rules.....nobody set the moderators without the campaigns expressed agreement.

So sad that you feel you have to make excuses for your guy even before he speaks.


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CW is setting the bar low for her guy. Good thing.


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You mean, even lower?

Anyone remember Chicken McCain, trying to chicken out, back then?


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Preemptive bar setting... right at ground level, too. Inspires almost too much confidence, doesn't it... yowza.


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CW you're absolutely right. The moderator's can always slant it the way they want to. Romney will do better than Obama in the debates, I'm sure of it. Watching the debate will be painful because I'll have to listen to Obama talk about those fantasy jobs that he's going to create, etc., etc. Having to hear the rhetoric from him again and again is annoying. Since he can't brag about what he's accomplished these last 4 years, his only out will be to attack Romney. As long as Romney stays on subject he'll have it in the bag.


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Wishful thinking.

Kate


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Wishful thinking.

I'll say! Boy it must be nice to live in such a fantasy world. Obama will win the debates because "he owns MSM". Not because he's smart, a good speaker, level headed and can think on his feet. Unlike Mr. Romney who can't seem to get out of own way. Can't remember what he said yesterday. Definitely really bad at thinking on his feet. Obama hasn't created any jobs. Except he has created jobs. More than was previously thought. Romney is losing in the polls because the polls are fixed for the dems.

Oh, and about the polls are fixed for dems logic that the right has been trying to push the last few days...Nate Silver has totally debunked that logic (if you could even call it logic)

Here is a link that might be useful: Polls biased? Um, no.


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Watching the debate will be painful because I'll have to listen to Obama talk about those fantasy jobs that he's going to create, etc., etc

How about Romney saying he'll create 12 millions jobs in 4 years? Which is exactly the same number of jobs that economists predict would be created if he did nothing and the economy continued on the gently upward trajectory it's on now.

The economy could churn out 12 million jobs in the next four years regardless of who wins the White House in November, economists said.

It's a prediction in line with a promise made by the GOP presidential ticket.

Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney and his running mate Paul Ryan each pledged in their speeches during the GOP convention that they would create 12 million jobs over the next four years with a series of familiar policies that include reducing regulatory and tax burdens on small businesses and ramping up international trade.

Despite the slowly healing job market, Romney and Ryan have ignored the danger of going out at least part of the way on a political limb, with forecasts of a much faster pace of job growth on their side.

"Most forecasts for employment growth are very close to 12 million over the next four years regardless of who wins the presidency," Mark Zandi, chief economist with Moody's Analytics, told The Hill.

Here is a link that might be useful: source


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  • Posted by vgkg 7-Va Tidewater (My Page) on
    Sun, Sep 30, 12 at 18:25

I agree Romney did Great during the primary debates...against the best pack of idiots the GOP had to offer.

Mitt Romney 2012
GOP's Gift to Obama

Perhaps there really is a God


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Any member of a HS debate team could have won those.

And if there really really really is a God, Romney will be conceding shortly after the last poll closes. Can we place bets on Wolf Blitzer and CNN actually calling something right? There's a reason I watch coverage on MSNBC.


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They're already closing streets and limiting parking anywhere near the venue, 4 days in advance.

Talk about a monumental hassle.


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Watching the debates will be painful for me just like when Bush was doing them. Romney's gasping fast monotone voice comes off as pathetic and trying too hard. I hope he practiced his zingers. God knows he's been at it for a long time. How many days does it take him to "get prepared"? He must be a little dense. Maybe he can write cheat notes on his cuffs. I liked how Christie set his bar really high. This will be fun.


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The hype for this debate is way over the top. You would think it was some sort of defining moment in American history. From what I have read this election has the fewest amount of undecided voters in history. Both camps will tout their guy as the winner or make excuses if he isn't.

Far as I'm concerned it's just the media hyping it to boost their own ratings.

I for one won't be watching, I'll stick with Murder She Wrote followed by reruns of Downton Abbey, so I will have to count of you folk for the postmortem.


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LOL, so Romney's surrogates are setting the bar low. Well Obama himself said that Romney is a better debater than himself. So who is trying to lower the bar?


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They both are...its a joke.


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Will there be credits written at the end of who wrote what ZINGERS! PUH LEASE even the pretense that any of his words are his own & that he can remember what he's for or against beyond 5 minutes at a time.


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Mitt Romney is a lawyer with an MBA, and a history of private sector success. I think the debates will be fun to watch. Is everybody here planning to be part of the audience?


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  • Posted by kwoods Cold z7 Long Is (My Page) on
    Wed, Oct 3, 12 at 12:28

I think they should physically fight.... or maybe just arm wrestle.


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I watched all the Republican debates and will watch all the President and VP debates.

I doubt they will be as entertaining as the Republican debates those were funny and scary to think one of them had a chance to be the Leader of America.


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As noted before - the debate is closed to the public.

Better you should ask is anyone here is on a news crew or a student at Denver University. The first because that's what they do for a living; the second because they might have won a debate ticket by lottery.


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As in every event, HYPE is rampant in America. Super bowl , world series, new TV shows..everything is blown out of proportion including the countdown to the first debate. I will be watching and not down at Obama HQ's where there will be a raucous crowd. I want to watch in quiet, and then may go celebrate depending how many times Mitty goofs..I'll bet $10,000 he will.


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I'm not going to watch it so will count on you folk to educate me as to the outcomes.


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Chase try to catch it online. I really value your feedback.


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Marquest, I have access to it on TV ....way too much as a matter of fact...I just don't know if I can handle much more of this hype by the media and the predictable psychobabble plus vitriol that will follow.


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I think they should physically fight.... or maybe just arm wrestle.

I'm for jousting--much more showy and traditional, trumpets blaring as the jousts begin, flags waving like it was a used car lot, maybe some clowns and jugglers in the audience. Would make a good TV spectacle, don't you think?

Kate


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  • Posted by kwoods Cold z7 Long Is (My Page) on
    Wed, Oct 3, 12 at 14:27

My vote will be based on the outcome of the evening gown segment of the competition.


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I'm getting the booze lined up for the Debate Drinking Game. Any mention of the following gets a slurp:

"Solyndra"
"47%"
"Tax returns and/or 13% rate"
"Chicago-style Politics"
Every 10 times we hear "middle class" - so keep a pencil/paper handy to keep track.

now two slurps if we hear a :
"Car Elevator"
"Cayman Island Tax Dodging"


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I was going to suggest a dance competition - bulerias, or alegrias. What better way to impress the world of the manliness of our candidates than a rousing flamenco competition.

The VP candidates can try a cante hondo competition. They'll be hoarse within minutes, and we'll all be spared.


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  • Posted by kwoods Cold z7 Long Is (My Page) on
    Wed, Oct 3, 12 at 15:36

Wouldn't it be more interesting to just have the two men sit down face to face at some table in the corner of a noisy bar, shake hands and lay it all out there?


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Things you won't hear:

GR:"The liberal media is distorting my tax plan - it's not that it's vague and doesn't seem to add up, it's that it uses special rich-person math that I can only explain to you after the election."

PO:I'd like to begin by apologizing to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

GR:I hope everyone in this audience appreciated my zinger. My staff and I worked very hard to make it spontaneous.

PO:In the immortal words of Rick Perry . . . [stares off into space].

GR:If you want to start a small business, you can always borrow money from your horse.

PO:I'd like to answer that question from a Kenyan, anti-colonialist point of view.

GR:But let's not lose sight of the fact that I'm a Mormon.

PO Look, I'd love to describe my plans for a second term, but I promised Vladimir Putin I wouldn't lay out much until after the election.

GR: Romneycare is functionally identical to Obamaca. . . . Oh, wait, sorry, these are my OLD notes.

PO: What people don't understand is that the U.N.'s one-world government is already in control.

GR:Let me tell you a little bit about dressage.

PO:Joe Biden's actually running the country.

GR:These podiums are the right height. No, really -- our campaign staffs have been arguing about this for months.

PO:In my second term, I plan to impose a unique hybrid of sharia law and the homosexual agenda that I've been concocting in secret over the past four years.

Here is a link that might be useful: link


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LOL David, thanks for lightening things up. You guys take this stuff way to seriously!


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  • Posted by vgkg 7-Va Tidewater (My Page) on
    Wed, Oct 3, 12 at 17:08

For a warm-up, "Survivor" comes on just before the debate.
Thurston Howell may get the boot.


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Who is GR?


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Debate

Never mind...Governor Romney.

"I'm getting the booze lined up for the Debate Drinking Game. Any mention of the following gets a slurp:"

"Solyndra"
"47%"
"Tax returns and/or 13% rate"
"Chicago-style Politics"
Every 10 times we hear "middle class" - so keep a pencil/paper handy to keep track.

That might be fun...!


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  • Posted by vgkg 7-Va Tidewater (My Page) on
    Wed, Oct 3, 12 at 18:12

Expect to pass out before 30 minutes are up.


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Hoot Vgkg! I listened to 40 minutes and can't take any more.

IMO, Romney is insane.

Romney's voice and intonations remind me of Reagan. I think it's an act.


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Made it through the debate.

My opinion on the debate would probably be unpopular but I think it's wise to conclude one thing...

I think it would be a mistake for anyone to get comfortable in thinking Obama has this one in the bag.


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I don't think that Obama did as well as I hoped he would. I don't think Romney did great either, by the way. He completely disowned his tax plan!


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Romney's tone and look made me very uncomfortable. When Romney started shouting I thought he was going to lose it. I thought he had a creepy look in a Nixonesque kind of way.

And I still don't know what Romney's plans are if he becomes president.


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I just had this horrible thought. Obama seemed very subdued tonight - like he had a lot on his mind. I am wondering if it has to do with the problems with Syria and Turkey. Maybe something is going on or is going to happen that we don't know about yet.


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  • Posted by vgkg 7-Va Tidewater (My Page) on
    Wed, Oct 3, 12 at 23:03

Appearances favored Romney but perhaps the fact checkers won't. Romney may have planned to say what viewers liked and wanted to hear rather than what he had said he would do policywise over recent weeks. Screw the fact checkers? We'll see what is digested and comes out the other end starting tomorrow.


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You could tell who'd spent the last two weeks practicing, and who didn't.


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It was nice of you to watch, HG. We had a great time in this house ;D

Hope you enjoyed it.


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  • Posted by vgkg 7-Va Tidewater (My Page) on
    Wed, Oct 3, 12 at 23:22

Maybe Obama wanted to seem like the underdog tonite so that expectations of Romney will be ultra high next time. Then Obama can make a big comeback in the next two debates. (heehee, anything's possible).

Foreign Policy debate should be interesting and defining as this one fades from historically short attention spans. The first quarter is over but the game has a ways to go. Thurston Howell clings to the island tonite, but the Professor will be the most likely one to survive.


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First, let me say that the set-up was borrrrrring!

Secondly, Obama disappointed me. Why didn't he call Romney on some of that crap?

Thirdly, Romney was so hyper and aggressive that he was beginning to make me nervous.

I say--they both lost.

Kate


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This made me recall the Ali-Foreman fight in 1974 aka the "rumble in the jungle." That was a Heavyweight boxing Championship where Ali employed his famous "rope-a-dope" strategy.

Tonight, Romney was the dope, a hyper, overly aggressive challenger who punched himself weary.
We expected that.
Obama did what he had to do - avoid any major mistakes and remain Presidential.

Here is a link that might be useful: Rumble in the Jungle


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Posted by lily316 z5PA (My Page) on
Wed, Oct 3, 12 at 13:42

"As in every event, HYPE is rampant in America. Super bowl , world series, new TV shows..everything is blown out of proportion including the countdown to the first debate. I will be watching and not down at Obama HQ's where there will be a raucous crowd. I want to watch in quiet, and then may go celebrate depending how many times Mitty goofs..I'll bet $10,000 he will."

I hope poor old lily hasn't taken to her bed with the vapors.

Who gets the $10K?


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Certainly not you, Elvis. Romney is a hyperactive bully who made mince meat out of a respected moderator. He doesn't play by the rules, he never did. It's time to get mean. Obama should NOT be Mr Nice guy any longer. Fact checkers, get busy with all the BS Mitt threw out there.


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Lily--ignore the troll.

Did anyone think Romney, the professional Liar, would not lie, all of a sudden?


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What exactly did Romney lie about, be specific if you can and of course give your source.


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They both twisted the truth.

WASHINGTON (AP) � President Barack Obama and Republican rival Mitt Romney spun one-sided stories in their first presidential debate, not necessarily bogus, but not the whole truth.
They made some flat-out flubs, too. The rise in health insurance premiums has not been the slowest in 50 years, as Obama stated. Far from it. And there are not 23 million unemployed, as Romney asserted.
Here's a look at some of their claims and how they stack up with the facts:
OBAMA: "I've proposed a specific $4 trillion deficit reduction plan. ... The way we do it is $2.50 for every cut, we ask for $1 in additional revenue."
THE FACTS: In promising $4 trillion, Obama is already banking more than $2 trillion from legislation enacted along with Republicans last year that cut agency operating budgets and capped them for 10 years. He also claims more than $800 billion in war savings that would occur anyway. And he uses creative bookkeeping to hide spending on Medicare reimbursements to doctors. Take those "cuts" away and Obama's $2.50/$1 ratio of spending cuts to tax increases shifts significantly more in the direction of tax increases.
Obama's February budget offered proposals that would cut deficits over the coming decade by $2 trillion instead of $4 trillion. Of that deficit reduction, tax increases accounted for $1.6 trillion. He promises relatively small spending cuts of $597 billion from big federal benefit programs like Medicare and Medicaid. He also proposed higher spending on infrastructure projects.
___
ROMNEY: Obama's health care plan "puts in place an unelected board that's going to tell people ultimately what kind of treatments they can have. I don't like that idea."
THE FACTS: Romney is referring to the Independent Payment Advisory Board, a panel of experts that would have the power to force Medicare cuts if costs rise beyond certain levels and Congress fails to act. But Obama's health care law explicitly prohibits the board from rationing care, shifting costs to retirees, restricting benefits or raising the Medicare eligibility age. So the board doesn't have the power to dictate to doctors what treatments they can prescribe.
Romney seems to be resurrecting the assertion that Obama's law would lead to rationing, made famous by former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin's widely debunked allegation that it would create "death panels."
The board has yet to be named, and its members would ultimately have to be confirmed by the Senate. Health care inflation has been modest in the last few years, so cuts would be unlikely for most of the rest of this decade.
___
OBAMA: "Over the last two years, health care premiums have gone up � it's true � but they've gone up slower than any time in the last 50 years. So we're already beginning to see progress. In the meantime, folks out there with insurance, you're already getting a rebate."
THE FACTS: Not so, concerning premiums. Obama is mixing overall health care spending, which has been growing at historically low levels, and health insurance premiums, which have continued to rise faster than wages and overall economic growth. Premiums for job-based family coverage have risen by nearly $2,400 since 2009 when Obama took office, according to the nonpartisan Kaiser Family Foundation. In 2011, premiums jumped by 9 percent. This year's 4 percent increase was more manageable, but the price tag for family coverage stands at $15,745, with employees paying more than $4,300 of that.
When it comes to insurance rebates under Obama's health care law, less than 10 percent of people with private health insurance are benefiting.
More than 160 million Americans under 65 have private insurance through their jobs and by buying their own policies. According to the administration, about 13 million people will benefit from rebates. And nearly two-thirds of that number will only be entitled to a share of it, since they are covered under job-based plans where their employer pays most of the premium and will get most of the rebate.
___
ROMNEY on the failure of Obama's economic policy: "And the proof of that is 23 million people out of work. The proof of that is 1 out of 6 people in poverty. The proof of that is we've gone from 32 million on food stamps to 47 million on food stamps. The proof of that is that 50 percent of college graduates this year can't find work."
THE FACTS: The number of unemployed is 12.5 million, not 23 million. Romney was also counting 8 million people who are working part time but would like a full-time job and 2.6 million who have stopped looking for work, either because they are discouraged or because they are going back to school or for other reasons.
He got the figure closer to right earlier in the debate, leaving out only the part-timers when he said the U.S. has "23 million people out of work or stopped looking for work." But he was wrong in asserting that Obama came into office "facing 23 million people out of work." At the start of Obama's presidency, 12 million were out of work.
His claim that half of college graduates can't find work now also was problematic. A Northeastern University analysis for The Associated Press found that a quarter of graduates were probably unemployed and another quarter were underemployed, which means working in jobs that didn't make full use of their skills or experience.
___
OBAMA: It's important "that we take some of the money that we're saving as we wind down two wars to rebuild America."
THE FACTS: This oft-repeated claim is based on a fiscal fiction. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were paid for mostly with borrowed money, so stopping them doesn't create a new pool of available cash that can be used for something else, like rebuilding America. It just slows down the government's borrowing.
___
ROMNEY: "At the same time, gasoline prices have doubled under the president. Electric rates are up."
THE FACTS: He's right that the average price has doubled, and a little more, since Obama was sworn in. But presidents have almost no influence on gasoline prices, and certainly not in the near term. Gasoline prices are set on financial exchanges around the world and are based on a host of factors, most importantly the price of crude oil used to make gasoline, the amount of finished gasoline ready to be shipped and the capacity of refiners to make enough to meet market demand.
Retail electricity prices have risen since Obama took office � barely. They've grown by an average of less than 1 percent per year, less than the rate of inflation and slower than the historical growth in electricity prices. The unexpectedly modest rise in electricity prices is because of the plummeting cost of natural gas, which is used to generate electricity.
___
OBAMA: "Gov. Romney's central economic plan calls for a $5 trillion tax cut � on top of the extension of the Bush tax cuts, that's another trillion dollars � and $2 trillion in additional military spending that the military hasn't asked for. That's $8 trillion. How we pay for that, reduce the deficit, and make the investments that we need to make, without dumping those costs onto middle-class Americans, I think is one of the central questions of this campaign."
THE FACTS: Obama's claim that Romney wants to cut taxes by $5 trillion doesn't add up. Presumably, Obama was talking about the effect of Romney's tax plan over 10 years, which is common in Washington. But Obama's math doesn't take into account Romney's entire plan.
Romney proposes to reduce income tax rates by 20 percent and eliminate the estate tax and the alternative minimum tax. The Tax Policy Center, a Washington research group, says that would reduce federal tax revenues by $465 billion in 2015, which would add up to about $5 trillion over 10 years.
However, Romney says he wants to pay for the tax cuts by reducing or eliminating tax credits, deductions and exemptions. The goal is a simpler tax code that raises the same amount of money as the current system but does it in a more efficient manner.
The knock on Romney's plan, which Obama accurately cited, is that Romney has refused to say which tax breaks he would eliminate to pay for the lower rates.
___
ROMNEY: "What would I cut from spending? Well, first of all, I will eliminate all programs by this test, if they pass it: Is the program so critical it's worth borrowing money from China to pay for it?"
THE FACTS: China continues to be portrayed by Romney and many other Republicans as the poster child for runaway federal deficits. It's true that China is the largest foreign holder of U.S. debt, but it only represents about an 8 percent stake. And China has recently been decreasing its holdings, according to the Treasury Department. Some two-thirds of the $16 trillion national debt is owed to the federal government, with the largest single stake the Federal Reserve, as well as American investors and the Social Security Trust Fund.
___
OBAMA: "Independent studies looking at this said the only way to meet Gov. Romney's pledge of not ... adding to the deficit is by burdening middle-class families. The average middle-class family with children would pay about $2,000 more."
THE FACTS: That's just one scenario. Obama's claim relies on a study by the Tax Policy Center, a Washington research group. The study, however, is more nuanced than Obama indicated.
The study concludes it would be impossible for Romney to meet all of his stated goals without shifting some of the tax burden from people who make more than $200,000 to people who make less.
In one scenario, the study says, Romney's proposal could result in a $2,000 tax increase for families who make less than $200,000 and have children.
Romney says his plan wouldn't raise taxes on anyone, and his campaign points to several studies by conservative think tanks that dispute the Tax Policy Center's findings. Most of the conservative studies argue that Romney's tax plan would stimulate economic growth, generating additional tax revenue without shifting any of the tax burden to the middle class. Congress, however, doesn't use those kinds of projections when it estimates the effect of tax legislation.
___
ROMNEY on cutting the deficit: "Obamacare's on my list. ... I'm going to stop the subsidy to PBS. ... I'll make government more efficient."
THE FACTS: Romney has promised to balance the budget in eight years to 10 years, but he hasn't offered a complete plan. Instead, he's promised a set of principles, some of which � like increasing Pentagon spending and restoring more than $700 billion in cuts that Democrats made in Medicare over the coming decade � work against his goal. He also has said he will not consider tax increases.
He pledges to shrink the government to 20 percent of the size of the economy, as opposed to more than 23 percent of gross domestic product now, by the end of his first term. The Romney campaign estimates that would require cuts of $500 billion from the 2016 budget alone. He also has pledged to cut tax rates by 20 percent, paying for them by eliminating tax breaks for the wealthiest and through economic growth.
To fulfill his promise, then, Romney would require cuts to other programs so deep � under one calculation requiring cutting many areas of the domestic budget by one-third within four years � that they could never get through Congress. Cuts to domestic agencies would have to be particularly deep.
But he's offered only a few modest examples of government programs he'd be willing to squeeze, like subsidies to PBS and Amtrak. He does want to repeal Obama's big health care law, but that law is actually forecast to reduce the deficit.
___
ROMNEY: "Simpson-Bowles, the president should have grabbed that."
OBAMA: "That's what we've done, made some adjustments to it, and we're putting it before Congress right now, a $4 trillion plan."
THE FACTS: At first, the president did largely ignore the recommendations made by his deficit commission headed by Democrat Erskine Bowles and Republican Alan Simpson. He later incorporated some of the proposals, largely the less controversial ones. He did not endorse some of the politically troublesome recommendations, such as trimming popular tax deductions like the one for home mortgage interest.
___

Here is a link that might be useful: Fact check


 o
RE: The first debate

They both twisted the truth.

WASHINGTON (AP) � President Barack Obama and Republican rival Mitt Romney spun one-sided stories in their first presidential debate, not necessarily bogus, but not the whole truth.
They made some flat-out flubs, too. The rise in health insurance premiums has not been the slowest in 50 years, as Obama stated. Far from it. And there are not 23 million unemployed, as Romney asserted.
Here's a look at some of their claims and how they stack up with the facts:
OBAMA: "I've proposed a specific $4 trillion deficit reduction plan. ... The way we do it is $2.50 for every cut, we ask for $1 in additional revenue."
THE FACTS: In promising $4 trillion, Obama is already banking more than $2 trillion from legislation enacted along with Republicans last year that cut agency operating budgets and capped them for 10 years. He also claims more than $800 billion in war savings that would occur anyway. And he uses creative bookkeeping to hide spending on Medicare reimbursements to doctors. Take those "cuts" away and Obama's $2.50/$1 ratio of spending cuts to tax increases shifts significantly more in the direction of tax increases.
Obama's February budget offered proposals that would cut deficits over the coming decade by $2 trillion instead of $4 trillion. Of that deficit reduction, tax increases accounted for $1.6 trillion. He promises relatively small spending cuts of $597 billion from big federal benefit programs like Medicare and Medicaid. He also proposed higher spending on infrastructure projects.
___
ROMNEY: Obama's health care plan "puts in place an unelected board that's going to tell people ultimately what kind of treatments they can have. I don't like that idea."
THE FACTS: Romney is referring to the Independent Payment Advisory Board, a panel of experts that would have the power to force Medicare cuts if costs rise beyond certain levels and Congress fails to act. But Obama's health care law explicitly prohibits the board from rationing care, shifting costs to retirees, restricting benefits or raising the Medicare eligibility age. So the board doesn't have the power to dictate to doctors what treatments they can prescribe.
Romney seems to be resurrecting the assertion that Obama's law would lead to rationing, made famous by former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin's widely debunked allegation that it would create "death panels."
The board has yet to be named, and its members would ultimately have to be confirmed by the Senate. Health care inflation has been modest in the last few years, so cuts would be unlikely for most of the rest of this decade.
___
OBAMA: "Over the last two years, health care premiums have gone up � it's true � but they've gone up slower than any time in the last 50 years. So we're already beginning to see progress. In the meantime, folks out there with insurance, you're already getting a rebate."
THE FACTS: Not so, concerning premiums. Obama is mixing overall health care spending, which has been growing at historically low levels, and health insurance premiums, which have continued to rise faster than wages and overall economic growth. Premiums for job-based family coverage have risen by nearly $2,400 since 2009 when Obama took office, according to the nonpartisan Kaiser Family Foundation. In 2011, premiums jumped by 9 percent. This year's 4 percent increase was more manageable, but the price tag for family coverage stands at $15,745, with employees paying more than $4,300 of that.
When it comes to insurance rebates under Obama's health care law, less than 10 percent of people with private health insurance are benefiting.
More than 160 million Americans under 65 have private insurance through their jobs and by buying their own policies. According to the administration, about 13 million people will benefit from rebates. And nearly two-thirds of that number will only be entitled to a share of it, since they are covered under job-based plans where their employer pays most of the premium and will get most of the rebate.
___
ROMNEY on the failure of Obama's economic policy: "And the proof of that is 23 million people out of work. The proof of that is 1 out of 6 people in poverty. The proof of that is we've gone from 32 million on food stamps to 47 million on food stamps. The proof of that is that 50 percent of college graduates this year can't find work."
THE FACTS: The number of unemployed is 12.5 million, not 23 million. Romney was also counting 8 million people who are working part time but would like a full-time job and 2.6 million who have stopped looking for work, either because they are discouraged or because they are going back to school or for other reasons.
He got the figure closer to right earlier in the debate, leaving out only the part-timers when he said the U.S. has "23 million people out of work or stopped looking for work." But he was wrong in asserting that Obama came into office "facing 23 million people out of work." At the start of Obama's presidency, 12 million were out of work.
His claim that half of college graduates can't find work now also was problematic. A Northeastern University analysis for The Associated Press found that a quarter of graduates were probably unemployed and another quarter were underemployed, which means working in jobs that didn't make full use of their skills or experience.
___
OBAMA: It's important "that we take some of the money that we're saving as we wind down two wars to rebuild America."
THE FACTS: This oft-repeated claim is based on a fiscal fiction. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were paid for mostly with borrowed money, so stopping them doesn't create a new pool of available cash that can be used for something else, like rebuilding America. It just slows down the government's borrowing.
___
ROMNEY: "At the same time, gasoline prices have doubled under the president. Electric rates are up."
THE FACTS: He's right that the average price has doubled, and a little more, since Obama was sworn in. But presidents have almost no influence on gasoline prices, and certainly not in the near term. Gasoline prices are set on financial exchanges around the world and are based on a host of factors, most importantly the price of crude oil used to make gasoline, the amount of finished gasoline ready to be shipped and the capacity of refiners to make enough to meet market demand.
Retail electricity prices have risen since Obama took office � barely. They've grown by an average of less than 1 percent per year, less than the rate of inflation and slower than the historical growth in electricity prices. The unexpectedly modest rise in electricity prices is because of the plummeting cost of natural gas, which is used to generate electricity.
___
OBAMA: "Gov. Romney's central economic plan calls for a $5 trillion tax cut � on top of the extension of the Bush tax cuts, that's another trillion dollars � and $2 trillion in additional military spending that the military hasn't asked for. That's $8 trillion. How we pay for that, reduce the deficit, and make the investments that we need to make, without dumping those costs onto middle-class Americans, I think is one of the central questions of this campaign."
THE FACTS: Obama's claim that Romney wants to cut taxes by $5 trillion doesn't add up. Presumably, Obama was talking about the effect of Romney's tax plan over 10 years, which is common in Washington. But Obama's math doesn't take into account Romney's entire plan.
Romney proposes to reduce income tax rates by 20 percent and eliminate the estate tax and the alternative minimum tax. The Tax Policy Center, a Washington research group, says that would reduce federal tax revenues by $465 billion in 2015, which would add up to about $5 trillion over 10 years.
However, Romney says he wants to pay for the tax cuts by reducing or eliminating tax credits, deductions and exemptions. The goal is a simpler tax code that raises the same amount of money as the current system but does it in a more efficient manner.
The knock on Romney's plan, which Obama accurately cited, is that Romney has refused to say which tax breaks he would eliminate to pay for the lower rates.
___
ROMNEY: "What would I cut from spending? Well, first of all, I will eliminate all programs by this test, if they pass it: Is the program so critical it's worth borrowing money from China to pay for it?"
THE FACTS: China continues to be portrayed by Romney and many other Republicans as the poster child for runaway federal deficits. It's true that China is the largest foreign holder of U.S. debt, but it only represents about an 8 percent stake. And China has recently been decreasing its holdings, according to the Treasury Department. Some two-thirds of the $16 trillion national debt is owed to the federal government, with the largest single stake the Federal Reserve, as well as American investors and the Social Security Trust Fund.
___
OBAMA: "Independent studies looking at this said the only way to meet Gov. Romney's pledge of not ... adding to the deficit is by burdening middle-class families. The average middle-class family with children would pay about $2,000 more."
THE FACTS: That's just one scenario. Obama's claim relies on a study by the Tax Policy Center, a Washington research group. The study, however, is more nuanced than Obama indicated.
The study concludes it would be impossible for Romney to meet all of his stated goals without shifting some of the tax burden from people who make more than $200,000 to people who make less.
In one scenario, the study says, Romney's proposal could result in a $2,000 tax increase for families who make less than $200,000 and have children.
Romney says his plan wouldn't raise taxes on anyone, and his campaign points to several studies by conservative think tanks that dispute the Tax Policy Center's findings. Most of the conservative studies argue that Romney's tax plan would stimulate economic growth, generating additional tax revenue without shifting any of the tax burden to the middle class. Congress, however, doesn't use those kinds of projections when it estimates the effect of tax legislation.
___
ROMNEY on cutting the deficit: "Obamacare's on my list. ... I'm going to stop the subsidy to PBS. ... I'll make government more efficient."
THE FACTS: Romney has promised to balance the budget in eight years to 10 years, but he hasn't offered a complete plan. Instead, he's promised a set of principles, some of which � like increasing Pentagon spending and restoring more than $700 billion in cuts that Democrats made in Medicare over the coming decade � work against his goal. He also has said he will not consider tax increases.
He pledges to shrink the government to 20 percent of the size of the economy, as opposed to more than 23 percent of gross domestic product now, by the end of his first term. The Romney campaign estimates that would require cuts of $500 billion from the 2016 budget alone. He also has pledged to cut tax rates by 20 percent, paying for them by eliminating tax breaks for the wealthiest and through economic growth.
To fulfill his promise, then, Romney would require cuts to other programs so deep � under one calculation requiring cutting many areas of the domestic budget by one-third within four years � that they could never get through Congress. Cuts to domestic agencies would have to be particularly deep.
But he's offered only a few modest examples of government programs he'd be willing to squeeze, like subsidies to PBS and Amtrak. He does want to repeal Obama's big health care law, but that law is actually forecast to reduce the deficit.
___
ROMNEY: "Simpson-Bowles, the president should have grabbed that."
OBAMA: "That's what we've done, made some adjustments to it, and we're putting it before Congress right now, a $4 trillion plan."
THE FACTS: At first, the president did largely ignore the recommendations made by his deficit commission headed by Democrat Erskine Bowles and Republican Alan Simpson. He later incorporated some of the proposals, largely the less controversial ones. He did not endorse some of the politically troublesome recommendations, such as trimming popular tax deductions like the one for home mortgage interest.
___

Here is a link that might be useful: Fact check


 o
RE: The first debate

I guess I didn't miss much as I was in bed, fast asleep by 9:15.

Millions of Americans Lose Consciousness

DENVER (The Borowitz Report)�Millions of Americans lost consciousness on Wednesday night between the hours of 9 and 10:30 P.M. E.T., according to widespread anecdotal reports from coast to coast.

The sudden epidemic of sleepiness prevented voters from watching more than a minute or two of the first Presidential debate between former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney and President Barack Obama, which the few observers who remained awake have called the most tedious in American history.

Moderator Jim Lehrer�s opening instruction to the audience that they remain silent proved unnecessary, since within minutes most of them sat with their heads tipped forward, drool visibly dangling from their mouths.

Mr. Obama began the debate with a high-risk tactic that seemed designed to alienate huge swaths of the country�the use of math and facts�but ultimately his words seemed unlikely to turn off many viewers, who were soon off on their journey to dreamland.

Mr. Romney�s much-trumpeted "zingers" were nowhere in evidence, except for a mystifying non-sequitur attack on PBS�s Big Bird.

The only fireworks came at the very beginning of the debate, when Mr. Obama congratulated his wife, Michelle, on their twentieth wedding anniversary, drawing this response from Mr. Romney: "I disagree with your decision to marry Michelle. On Day One, I�ll reverse it."

Here is a link that might be useful: the new yorker


 o
RE: The first debate

Obama is abysmally bad at stating his accomplishments, i.e, tooting his own horn.

No mention of the 47%? (I went to bed after 1 1/2 hours so perhaps I missed it).


 o
RE: The first debate

  • Posted by vgkg 7-Va Tidewater (My Page) on
    Thu, Oct 4, 12 at 9:45

"Millions of Americans Lose Consciousness"

I tried to warn folks about the drinking game.


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