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While I am complaining about choices.....

Posted by agnespuffin (My Page) on
Tue, Sep 18, 12 at 12:45

...is it really sensible to send a female representative to a country where women are considered property and second class citizens.

Can they be effective dealing with men who have looked down on women their entire lives?

Sure, we are setting a good example of what we are supposed to believe, but is this a sensible way to get good results in an International area?


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: While I am complaining about choices.....

are you suggesting that foriegn countries should only send males to the US?


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RE: While I am complaining about choices.....

So......we shouldn't have Madelyn Albrights or Condoleeza Rices or Hillary Clintons?

-Ron-


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RE: While I am complaining about choices.....

We lead by example.
kowtowing to other cultures ?
NO


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RE: While I am complaining about choices.....

  • Posted by kwoods Cold z7 Long Is (My Page) on
    Tue, Sep 18, 12 at 12:58

I think sending the best person regardless of gender is both sensible as well as effective. Can there be "cultural" impediments for women? Absolutely, but good diplomats find a way....


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RE: While I am complaining about choices.....

And have these women really made a difference in policies?

A good diplomats certainly finds a way, but being a woman in a country that doesn't trust women, makes it harder to do a good job.

and yes, I think women could be an excellent job, but I just don't think that some of the other countries are ready to accept them as equals.

And yes, we are setting a good example, but in the meantime we are moving close and closer to war. Is this wise?


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RE: While I am complaining about choices.....

I suppose 'tit for tat' diplomacy can be an effective strategy. Is that a good enough reason to keep the glass ceiling in your own society?

-Ron-


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RE: While I am complaining about choices.....

I think you are under estimating the diplomats in the other countries-they would not see your representative as 'female' but a powerful representative of a powerful country. If you were to follow your thought of not using women in countries who do not value women then you are flat out of luck in a world that does not value Americans- many countries hate our guts but work with our diplomats because they must.


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RE: While I am complaining about choices.....

The artifice of diplomacy often disappears with the awareness of might!


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RE: While I am complaining about choices.....

Agnes - don't you think women are innately equipped with diplomatic skills such as negotiating, intelligence seeking and peace keeping? Many women are skillful in the art of negotiation; have proven to be able to judge best interests and making rational moral judgments.

Women do possess the capability to work out solutions with patience, cooperation, mutual understanding, and all with the willingness to listen.

We've got women today every bit as capable as Joan of Arc, Catherine the Great, QEI...


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RE: While I am complaining about choices.....

Posted by Roughseas none (My Page) on Tue, Sep 18, 12 at 12:57

"kowtowing to other cultures ?
NO"

Almost messed up my screen; that wouldn't've been good. It seems that a lot of folks advocate just that; especially here on HT.


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RE: While I am complaining about choices.....

Translation:

Respecting other cultures = kowtowing to other cultures in Repub-speak.


-Ron-


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RE: While I am complaining about choices.....

yes , i agree elvis, the christian right demands we kowtow our secular natinal laws to them


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RE: While I am complaining about choices.....

  • Posted by kwoods Cold z7 Long Is (My Page) on
    Tue, Sep 18, 12 at 14:43

"kowtowing to other cultures"

Is the irony of an english speaker using the word "kowtow" in this context intentional?

I always wonder who's using humor deliberately or by chance on this board.


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RE: While I am complaining about choices.....

kwoods, I was using it as a sarcastic expression of servitude.

-Ron-


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RE: While I am complaining about choices.....

I am NOT saying that we don't have women that are able to do a very good job..

What I am asking is if we are doing the smartest and most logical thing by sending females to reprsent us. Remember that many of the men in those countries still treat their wives and mothers as property.

Even when we do send them, they wear the modest clothes, dress, cover the hair, etc. so as not to offend. Therefore, they are NOT accepted as capable people but as something different....something that the men would have no contact with if given the choice.

Is this the best choice? That's what I want to know. Do you think that Ms. Clinton is the best choice? Would a man of equal talent, ability been able to have done more?


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RE: While I am complaining about choices.....

  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Tue, Sep 18, 12 at 14:54

You know this is how it's going, or are you speculating?


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RE: While I am complaining about choices.....

i picked kowtow on purpose to answer your question.
very much on purpose


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RE: While I am complaining about choices.....

  • Posted by kwoods Cold z7 Long Is (My Page) on
    Tue, Sep 18, 12 at 15:06

Sorry Ron, I was wondering about its first use in Roughseas post up top.

Are we talking about Susan Rice, Hillary Clinton, both or some hypothetical?

I would say that the competence, integrity and work ethic of both Rice and Hillary trump any "cultural" obstacles they might face because they are women. People should be judged on their individual ability to get the job done first and foremost. Are there men in the diplomatic core that have the same gravitas as Hillary Clinton does in international affairs? I say NO WAY.


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RE: While I am complaining about choices.....

I think KWoods nailed it.

Gender is irrelevant... it's how effective a diplomat one is.

Judging by many of Roughseas' other responses, I'd say he was definitely being sarcastic. :-)

Women want equality, and there's no reason we should not have it. We are as capable and able and intelligent as men. We are not the "weaker sex"... not by a long shot.


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RE: While I am complaining about choices.....

  • Posted by kwoods Cold z7 Long Is (My Page) on
    Tue, Sep 18, 12 at 15:11

@Roughseas, love it.


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RE: While I am complaining about choices.....

agnespuffin, as much as I want to slam you into the wall and smack sense into you I reluctantly have a tendency to agree with you.

Not that a male might have done a better job just being male but the influence of a male even in this country makes a difference.

In this particular up rise I do not think it played a part in the actions of the fighting going on now or would play any part to stop the actions.


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RE: While I am complaining about choices.....

Are there men in the diplomatic core that have the same gravitas as Hillary Clinton does in international affairs? I say NO WAY.

One has to remember, she is also a former First Lady. That does carry a special weight. There's few to none with the combination of ability and gravitas. So to answer question, I think not.

-Ron-


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RE: While I am complaining about choices.....

Are there men in the diplomatic core that have the same gravitas as Hillary Clinton does in international affairs? I say NO WAY.

One has to remember, she is also a former First Lady. That does carry a special weight. There's few to none with the combination of ability and gravitas. So to answer question, I think not.

-Ron-


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RE: While I am complaining about choices.....

Agnes, I think you're trying to put too fine a point on this.

For no other reason than curiosity, I googled images for both Condi Rice and Hillary Clinton in Muslim countries - figuring there'd be head coverings, etc. in the more extreme locales. I did find one of Hillary with her head covered while OUT IN PUBLIC in Pakistan, but not otherwise or elsewhere - regardless of the "august" presence either one of them found themselves in.

Truth be told, we need more women in the diplomatic service.


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RE: While I am complaining about choices.....

Perhaps I need to explain my point again Agnes-if the people of a country-say Japan- view us as inferior-the situation is exactly similar to countries having to deal with female diplomats as equals when they despise women who are not locked up away from view. Since numerous Countries despise Americans for our inferior culture and biology who do you send to them for diplomatic purposes? The question is the same and yet no one makes a case for not sending anyone at all since there wouldn't be any one suitable to send because if you are Japanese American you are culturally inferior if not biologically. Prejudice is endemic. We have the same sorts of prejudices towards members of other countries, do African nations send us white representatives because we are a country renoun for our race prejudice?


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RE: While I am complaining about choices.....

...."agnespuffin, as much as I want to slam you into the wall and smack sense into you I reluctantly have a tendency to agree with you.
Not that a male might have done a better job just being male but the influence of a male even in this country makes a difference...."

Thanks....finally someone tries to understand! Whether we women like it or not, men usually do have more influence with other men.

MY opinion is that one day we will see the equality all over the world. It not just a matter of ability.

But for now..Today..in this world.. there are still some areas where women are not considered worth much. I think that if we had time, it wouldn't matter. But I don't think we have time.

Things are moving too fast.


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RE: While I am complaining about choices.....

"Whether we women like it or not, men usually do have more influence with other men."
as a man, i strongly disagree.. male to male dealings can be all about being more macho, "winning", keeping the upper hand.


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RE: While I am complaining about choices.....

We're getting into the meaning of words now. Influence can include winning via the macho route. It's a question of who has the most "influence" by whatever means you want, in countries like Iran. Women? I doubt it very much. Influence, like you said, can be about getting, and keeping the upper hand.

Remember that they were just recently allowed to drive cars. Do they have the same oppotunities for jobs, schooling, etc?


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RE: While I am complaining about choices.....

Do they have the same oppotunities for jobs, schooling, etc?

Some are winning Nobel Peace Prizes.


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RE: While I am complaining about choices.....

Any negatives about having female representatives to other nations are just as evenly balanced by the positives.

Just as a "for example" Kim Jong Il fell all over himself about Madeline Albright.

It's at least worth the effort to see whether a nation with more clearly chauvanistic standards than N Korea's is willing to work with a woman before condeming the effort entirely afaic.


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RE: While I am complaining about choices.....

So should we not send minorities either,,,, so we dont' offend?


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RE: While I am complaining about choices.....

Muammar Gadaffi was quite obsessed with Condi Rice.


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RE: While I am complaining about choices.....

I think we could probably take a bit of a cue from some of the women in our own military. My sister-in-law is a Major with a medical team in the Army. She is highly respected for her knowledge, her ability to lead, to keep a clear and level head while in harm's way, and her ability to think on her feet. She has many qualities that make her valuable to her position.

I think it's a person's qualities and abilities we should look at first... not gender or race. That's so 19th century.


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RE: While I am complaining about choices.....

Indira Ghandhi was Prime Minister of India for over three decades- men all over the world, including the middle east, paid very close attention to what Margaret Thatcher had to say for as long as she was the British Prime Minister .

That some men in middle eastern countries don't care to listen to what women have to say doesn't mean that the middle eastern *leaders* - or any world leaders, for that matter - don't pay very close attention to what Hillary Clinton says and what she does.

The world has already been moving in careful incremental steps to place women in positions where they must be listened to by all other leaders - for a long time now. Women have held power in countries, and have led countries, for as long as there have been countries organized and ruled by any leader.

If there are some third world countries who don't like to have to listen to a woman who is one of the most powerful people in the world, they will have to just suck it up if they want to deal with us.

They will either deal with the United States or they won't, irregardless of WHO it is they are dealing with, or the sex of the person.


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RE: While I am complaining about choices.....

Sorry if someone else already said this but how will other countries ever accept women as equals if we don't send them there expecting them to be treated as equals?


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RE: While I am complaining about choices.....

In many of the countries you imply - but do not name - it is not the gender of America's representatives that causes problems, but their nationality and religion. You might as well say we should only appoint dark-skinned Muslim American males as diplomats, and how representative would that be?

Masculinity was not a noticeable advantage to Christopher Stevens in Libya.

To restrict brilliant American women from high diplomatic posts would be such a retrograde step in the very recent emancipation of the American female. In contrast to the countries you describe, there are many countries who regard America as still notably lagging in the advancement of women in all aspects of society, including the attitude of males toward them and their own low expectations for themselves.

Besides, there are few things as scary as an angry, intelligent American female :)

Best wishes
Jon


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RE: While I am complaining about choices.....

I'm in agreement that women leaders are necessary in our world and that there should not be sex based restrictions on them.

"The following is a list of female presidents and prime ministers who are presently in power as of APRIL 13, 2012. For the last several years, we have been living in an era where a record-number of female leaders are holding power simultaneously.

CURRENT TOTAL: 20

We are currently living in an era with the highest-ever total number of female leaders serving simultaneously. 20 also served simultaneously during the late 2010-2011 period.

# Country Pic Leader In office since: Notes
1 Germany Chancellor Angela Merkel Nov. 22, 2005 - elected
2 Liberia President Ellen Johnson-Sirleaf Jan. 16, 2006 - elected
3 India President Pratibha Patil Jul. 25, 2007 - elected
4 Argentina President Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner Dec. 10, 2007 - elected
5 Bangledesh Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina Wajed Jan. 6, 2009 - elected
6 Iceland Prime Minister J�hanna Sigurdard�ttir Feb. 1, 2009 - appointed 2009, elected 2009
7 Lithuania President Dalia Grybauskaite Jul. 12, 2009 - elected
8 Costa Rica President Laura Chinchilla May 8, 2010 - elected
9 Trinidad and Tobago Prime Minister Kamla Persad-Bissessar May 26, 2010 - elected
10 Australia Prime Minister Julia Gillard� Jun. 24, 2010 - appointed 2010, elected 2010
11 Slovakia Prime Minister Iveta Radicov�� Jul. 8, 2010 - elected
12 Brazil President Dilma Rousseff Jan. 1, 2011 - elected
13 Kosovo President Atifete Jahjaga Apr. 7, 2011 - elected
14 Thailand Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra Aug. 8, 2011 - elected
15 Denmark Prime Minister Helle Thorning-Schmidt Oct. 3, 2011 - elected
16 Switzerland President Eveline Widmer-Schlumpf Jan. 1, 2012 - appointed
17 Jamaica Prime Minister Portia Simpson Miller Jan. 5, 2012 - elected
18 Mauritius President Monique Ohsan-Bellepeau Mar. 31, 2012 succeeded
29 Serbia President Slavica Djukic Dejanovic Apr. 4, 2012 - succeeded
20 Malawi President Joyce Banda Apr. 7, 2012 - succeeded
"Elected"�refers to women leaders who were elected in democratic elections, including both direct election and parliamentary election.
"Succeeded"�refers to leaders who automatically assumed their position following the resignation or impeachment of a predecessor, and were thus not specifically elected to their post."


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RE: While I am complaining about choices.....

They listen to the ladies as they open their big purses with our money pouring out of them...


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RE: While I am complaining about choices.....

That's most likely a part of it, Tobr... there are always deals to be made, aid or help to be garnered...

But it's true that if we never send a female, other nations won't ever get to see the intelligence, capability, and diplomacy women like Hillary Clinton can offer. Being equal as a female is pretty much a standard part of our culture. Part of diplomacy is accepting other cultures.


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RE: While I am complaining about choices.....

I do not think you will find a more independent woman supporter than myself. Observation of my business experience and personal experience it is different. We have more financial worth than in the 50s but we have not topped or is easy to get what we have acquired.

I do not think any woman if she is honest can say it is not different.

I am not saying it is right or that in the Middle East if it would have changed what is happening now. I am saying the male vs female issues exist in our society hear and abroad.

It is human nature it is how we are raised it is how the society has developed. It is christian teaching, it is in the marriage vows it is what it is.

We still make less than men so how can we think it would be different? We may want it to be different or a level playing field but it is not.


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