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cost of dog ( cat) medication

Posted by mylab123 z5NW (My Page) on
Tue, Sep 10, 13 at 16:13

I brought both dogs in to have their teeth checked - the shih tzu is checked every year, the large lab about every three+ years. So far still good with the little one, hasnt required a teeth cleaning yet! The big one though really needed a good cleaning, her first. Dogs are put out for this procedure, the cost can get high especially if tooth extractions are necessary, but our vet has the best prices in the valley. We recently switched to this vet, our old faithful vet retired and sold her practice to a young man who promptly raised the prices, at least doubled,.some were tripled. This vet came from word of mouth recommendation.

The vet told us that though the daily x3 dose of low dose aspirin we give to the old lab for joint pain is fine, the problem comes when she will ever require surgery or perhaps medications that could intensify the chance of bleeding and suggested we switch her to a pain med called tramadol, 75 mg x 3 per day. She warned us that it was expensive, we agreed that it seemed a good idea to switch her, we cant know what is in her medical future. Each dose cost $1.00, and at $3.00 per day, adds up to a real expense to us an a monthly basis. Certainly willing to pay as she has chronic pain and this med seems much more effective than the aspirin was.

However, being the thrifty person I am, I did some research on a more cost effective way to get this medication. A site recommended Cost-co as a very inexpensive way to get canine med.

I called the vet office and requested a perscription for 90 days plus one refill. There was a LOT of hemming and hawing and I had to call back the next day to find out if the vet would do it. He would, but was charging me $ 10.00 for writing it out! Was shocked and irritated.

Took it to Costco, was able to qualify for their reduced rates because she, even though an animal, has no health insurance. Amazing! I was prepared for a very hefty bill, but the total cost for it for a 90 day supply at three times a day was slightly less than $12.00 - that is, twelve dollars total charge at three doses a day for ninety full days supply.

Shame on my vet. Shame.

No wonder they were so reluctant to write it out for me. The Costco guy told me that all the vets are very upset at costco because the prices cant be beat and most have taken to charging the $10.00 fee for a written script, and will refuse to phone in refills.
I can understand a vet markup in order to cover their expenses plus a reasonable profit, but that buck a pill is really theft imo.

If you have animals on daily meds ( same dog is on thyroid med, too) it is more than worth it to become a Costco life member to save perhaps huge bucks on your pet's medication IMO.
It is for us, at any rate. And besides, I save big on my vitamins, hair and some skin products, some cleaning supplies, certainly paper products such as kleenex and bathroom tissue - and have access to excellent, organic no hormone boneless, skinless chicken breasts and red meat when I need it, red meat that is pink slime free, and *always* has been. The meats are never on sale and are more expensive, but the quality is great. I get all the ground beef there and always my chicken breasts and divide it all up and use the vacuum sealer, but for some other red meat I often shop for pink slime free sales elsewhere. We eat a LOT of chicken breasts though and like it that I can get quality breasts there.

Now, can save serious bucks on my beloved doggie's medications to combat her chronic pain too - so to quote Martha Stewart, its a good thing.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: cost of dog ( cat) medication

One of my dogs requires annual teeth cleaning. It costs $300 if you go during Doggy Dental Health Month (either February or March). Our vet started offering a health insurance plan. We pay $50 a month for each dog and almost everything is covered. They even send us the monthly Advantis (for fleas etc) in the mail.

Ted just had his teeth cleaned last week and all we had to pay was $20 for the antibiotics because annual cleaning is covered in the plan. I know it's an indulgence to pay so much for the doggies but on the other hand I have had some serious vet bills and I think in the long run it might be worth it.

It's good to know about Costco. That's a really good price.


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The cost of everything is local. Our pet care is cheap home prices and food are low but property taxes, utilities are sky high.

I have
A cat Havanna Brown
A dog - English Mastiff
A Bird - Goffin Cockatoo

My vet bill is never over 100 a year including meds. The dog is always sick with one thing or another. I have walked out with a week of antibiotics that did not cost anything extra. The vet give those free included in the appointment fee. Maybe I have a group rate because I have a variety of animals.


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RE: cost of dog ( cat) medication

  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Tue, Sep 10, 13 at 17:01

Which would then be called a herd or pack rate.


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RE: cost of dog ( cat) medication

I'm not happy with my vet or most that are practicing at his office. One in particular looks for ways she can incur the most costs possible. I avoid her completely now.
Personally, I really have been favouring Costco over the past few years.


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I have one cat and I spend maybe $200 a year for shots and visits. I did have a cat with thyroid issues but after a surgery, meds that in the attempts to administer them caused her to go completely bonkers, the suggestion of a second surgery, I told the vet that she had "living will and no further treatments would be necessary." She lived another year and it was clear when she was ready to go.

I have never considered helath insurance for any of my cats. When they are really sick, I tend to let them go.

As for the cat who now owns us, I feed her the best food available and get her regular check-ups, She's a lucky girl.


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I've come to feel just about as cynical toward vets as I do toward doctors.

I called a vet here for an elderly friend who was on a very slim income;
her ancient cat had had several strokes & needed to be euthanized.

Vet said, euthanasia was, if I remember it correctly, $35 if we took the cat home for burial.
*but*.
There was a $35 "examination fee" that had to be paid as well.

got nowhere arguing that no examination was needed.

called the city & the very sympathetic animal control dept said come out to the shelter & we'll do it for $20.

and there was a vet who opened a new clinic in the neighborhood & started charging (gouging) clients, especially the old ladies who seemed to make up most of the population, around $400 for one visit, stacking up exams/teeth cleaning/vaccines/baths/dips/tests/meds.

I passed his clinic one day & he had put a new message on the big sign:
"Once a year is not enough to protect your family member;
bring your pet in twice a year for check-ups."


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By federal law, Costco must sell prescriptions to non-members.
You can not shop the rest of the store obviously.

If you have a more local pharmacy that has a policy of price matching, you must verify the Costco price at the time you wish to price match because prices vary each week ...Safeway does this here.

Then Safeway checks their cost for that week, and will either match the Costco price, or if their cost is higher, they need to charge you the current cost.

Tricky at first, but for self pay customers it becomes a quick routine, and saves potentially hundreds per month. Best saving are by having the doctor prescribe in bulk.. if the drug comes in bottles of 100 tablets, make sure the scrip is written that way. HUGE savings right there.

I have no idea exactly the routine for insured patients. With a low co-pay it would not be worth the time and fuss, but if you happen to need higher cost scrips, it might be worth exploring.


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Ah, but with Costco you also get a members discount which they obligingly extend to my pets so it is the place to go from my pet meds. I have had cats on Orphan meds that had to be made by the compounding Pharmacist in Seattle but most are from Costco.

My Vet Dr. Ken Baber is a saint who adores animals and charges as low a charge as he can and would always go the extra mile for an elderly poor person. He does the most thoughtful and non-stressful euthanasia. He works for SPOT and has adoptable cats at his office. He has found homes for my dumplings on occasion. I buy flea meds through him even though I can get them cheaper elsewhere but his prices are good and I like to support his business. He does world class micro surgery and could charge the big bucks but doesn't. I have night mares about him retiring.


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speaking of pet care, one of the larger small animal practices nearby just sold out, to some Chinese outfit. My dads friend started the practice in 1954 in his garage/office and grew quite large. He w0ould roll over in his grave.

Animal care is outrageously high cost. Main reason I didn't get another dog. The horse and goats cost enuff but I do most work on them. I don't mess with the wifes Persians , thankfully they don't nee a lot from the vet.


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Tramadol is an opioid and therefore a controlled substance in some states (13, if i counted correctly). It might be difficult to get more than a 30 day supply and/or an rx for any refills in some places.

In NYS, even though the script is written for your dog, it could be abused by you or others and is considered a controlled substance. No refills allowed; you have to get a new prescription from the doctor/vet each time, which means another trip to the vet and another $10 if you are being charged to have an rx written.

I find veterinarian drug pricing to be quite reasonable for the most part. Many pharmacies actively advertise that they will fill pet meds, and this forces the vets to be more competitive with their pricing.

It seems rather cheesy to charge a regular, long-standing customer for this service. I wouldn't charge if it was my business because it makes no sense to alienate loyal customers.

This vet is just plain stupid. With more people becoming veterinarians, the field is becoming quite competitive and there are an increasing number of choices out there. He overcharges for drugs and tries to weasel more money from loyal clients to write an rx. Tell him to go pound salt and take your business elsewhere - someplace where you will be respected.


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We have 2 standard Labradoodles. We brush their teeth, and they've never required professional cleaning (the older guy is 9 years old). We feed dry kibble, so that's a plus for their dental health. No way I'm having my dog anesthetized for a cleaning; too risky. Besides, it's not work to brush their teeth. We love them, right?

Generic Heartguard is inexpensive via Petshed.com, as is Frontline Plus. I sprang for pricey emergency surgery once, had to do it; but I couldn't reconcile spending much on pet maintenance.

Of course, it's up to each individual what she/he is willing to spend on pets, and I think everyone should have the choice as to who/what living creatures they wish to support,.


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We feed dry kibble, so that's a plus for their dental health.

A bit of a myth there. Raw food is the best for their teeth. Dry kibble can leave small fragments of food in the gum area same as wet food.

Brushing certainly helps a lot.


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I used injectable ivermectin bwhen I was breeding, much less xpensive than those heart gaurds, etc.

When the wife bred Persians we had running vet bills, all the cesarians and maintainance? whew!
Just had to shoot the gr daughters old goat Alice. A great pet but she was in pain and I couldnt take her suffering another day. God I hate that kinda stuff. Still have a mini horse with a shoulder injury, a whole year now and no real improvement? Hundreds of $$$s later. 50 years of animal breeding and it never gets easier,

Raw food diets are a real +. I sold lots of rabbits to a raw food processor. When I had coon dogs they did best on what we caught, dead calves and groundhogs we shot. But I gotta say, they loved left over spaghetti from the Italian joint.


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"Raw food is the best for their teeth"

Oh, I agree. Raw meat is certainly more natural. But how many here are feeding their dogs & cats raw meat vs, kibbles vs, moist dog food (canned or packets). I'd venture a guess that the "cat ladies" here are probably not feeding Garfield raw meat on a regular basis, if at all.

If I'm wrong, I'm glad.


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On our second diabetic cat now, this one adopted, raw food is the best for getting them into "diet controlled" status. Purchased raw food, but raw nonetheless.

And btw, we do have a cat named Garfield. But he's not orange. And he's not diabetic.


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Lionheart, I requested and was given a 90 day supply prescription and the vet included a refill. Im amazed, how easy would it be for one of us to be abusing my dog's pain meds if we had a mind to.
However, Im grateful that I can get a 90 day supply for her as the pharmacy lines had a 45 minute wait so that is not something I would want to mess with every single month unless there was no other inexpensive option.

Vets here are quite expensive. When we bought the little shih tzu we took her to a highly recommended vet. After taking a bunch of blood work and checking her out carefully along with giving us honestly good advice on proper nutrition and training, our bill ended up at slightly over $400. We never returned, although we were mightily impressed with the office and staff. Just not $400+ worth.
Vets here have us over the barrel. I might have to move with my two critters ( three, counting my Mr. haha) into Marq's guest room in order to access her inexpensive vet care.
I hope it has it's own bathroom, Im picky about having my own private bathroom. With thick towels. And nice soaps.


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My boss (a vet tech since 1980) has always said that veterinarians charge whatever they think that the income level of the neighborhood will bear.

So this level of cynicism in veterinary care is not necessarily new, we all can just communicate with each other more easily to see it in action.

The mark up on shots is a big money maker for them too.

Cats are a whole other deal as far as shots and treatments go ... they are a lot harder to manipulate physically imo. But for my dogs, I do everything I can at home in co-op style with other dog owners. We buy ivermectin, other wormers, flea preventatives and shots together. So I spend 3 shots per year per dog @ $6 each, ivermectin is about $.80 a year per dog, and flea treatment is $30 a year per dog (panacur is too off and on to tell).

I only go to the vet for Rabies which I cannot legally give my dog and unfortunately, for K9 Influenza which is not available in feed stores yet.

The bargain place here charges $75 for teeth cleaning + $9 office visit, just in case anyone is interested in a baseline for what that service might be worth. I'm lucky enough to have a lot of options in a city, I know not everyone does.

I treat my dogs with a gel about every other day. One is a puppy and ought to be fine for a few more years, but my 4 year old rescue probably needs hers done soon ...

... But not until after the electric bills go down from the summer!!!


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Your first sentence: they sure as heck have misread us, we are a strictly and barely middle class income.
This is not a particularly high income community, Id say average wages. This new vet charged only $240 for my old lab's teeth cleaning. We were beyond thrilled at the fantastic rate. The vet we left, his new charges started at $300 for just the cleaning, another $40 for inspecting the teeth immediately prior to doing the cleaning, another charge for putting her out and serious extra charges for any tooth removal. Ridiculous. His dramatically increased charges are why we quit him after going to the practices's previous owner since 1995.

They really do have us over the barrel, don't they. We HAVE to pay if we want them treated, though.


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I'm not crazy about my vet. Too glitzy. He was named Simply the Best by a local magazine. I got all these emails telling me to vote for him. He bought the practice from my old vet who has an office in another town. He quoted $500 to clean my Dachshund's teeth. I don't brush any of their teeth, give the dogs rawhide bones once a week to chew on. They have us over a barrel. I take my two dogs in for their annual physical in the spring and get whatever shots are due. Knock on wood, I've been lucky. I'm very careful with them and have not needed any additional vet visits.

The cats are another matter. They are all strictly indoor and all are rescues. They have been neutered and given all their first shots. When I got my first dog five years ago, I had to give all four of them rabies shots. That's it. They don't go to the vet. They are treated like royalty, brushed and groomed and fed good food. I am their servant. But it stresses them so bad that it's not worth it to me. If they seem slightly "off", I'd certainly take them in.


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Pets are getting better treatment here than a lot of humans. How about supporting the affordable health care program for at least the humans?


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We make pet care affordable by doing a majority of it ourselves, though we are experienced. A vet makes a visit for rabies shots and county paperwork, but we take care of everything else.

Ivomec serves several purposes in various strengths, though one does have to know how to mix and use it properly. There are certain risks if used improperly.

We do our own pet dental, having our own tools for the job... we keep a fairly extensive vet kit supplied, including dental and medical. A shelf in my fridge is dedicated to animal medications and vaccinations.

From breeding to birth to the grave... pretty much everything is handled without the expense of a veterinarian.

Pet care doesn't have to be so costly... but then again, we subscribe to a different set of standards than the average pet owner...


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so you do your own pet dental jodik...how comfortable is that for your dogs?


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As comfortable as if I went to my dentist for a teeth cleaning or extraction. Does it have to be uncomfortable just because we do it instead of paying a vet?


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Let's not forget that proper breeding and proper nutrition are key to healthy animals... there shouldn't be horrible dental or health issues that can't be handled by an experienced hand.

And in a perfect world where total responsibility and respect for animal husbandry and stewardship overrode convenience, ignorance and greed... there wouldn't be many health issues for pet owners to face.

It's exceedingly unfortunate that this is not the case.

What sort of dental issues do you think we face that we can't handle with the proper tools and medicines?


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You guys make me feel like such a slacker. My cats come to me from friends/family and the outside. They have 2 cat doors so they can eliminate outside. I travel a lot - it's easy to have a friend come over and feed/water them, but asking them to clean a litter box is over the top. If I get the cat young enough, it will get a one time trip to the vet to be neutered and whatever shots necessary. Other than that, it will never see another vet unless it developes something that is obvious or causing it pain.
Some of them come in through the doors for a free meal and stay - I guess I'm adopting someone else s problem. I feed premium commercial dry feed and 3-4 cans of food /day on paper plates that can be composted. No waste, ever.
Recently, I looked into the kitchen and saw 6 animals grazing on the 2 plates of canned cat food and really expected 4. Two of them looked up, I saw the masks and knew they were raccoon's. I yelled and all 6 fled through the door, but the cats came back.
It's all good. If the raccoons didn't do so much damage (like opening the refrigerator to do a shopping tour), I'd feed them too.


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I used to feed an outside cat who came occasionally, and one night there was a family of opossums there too.

Could I hire you Jodi, and Mr Jodi too?...lol


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RE: cost of dog ( cat) medication

Mylab, here is another question about them even prescribing the Tramadol. First of all, I will state I am not a vet so this is a question to address with the vet. When a human needs surgery, if they are taking aspirin, they stop the aspirin for a couple of days ahead of time. If surgery is an emergency, and a patient bleeds too easily, then there are medications that can reverse those effects quickly. As far as being prescribed medications in the future that could intensify the effects of the aspirin, I would suspect that is something that could be addressed at such a time. To me, it sounds like he was not only gouging on the price of the med, but I would suspect that the Tramadol is not necessarily needed at this time any way.

We are more like Steve. Our pets do not spend a lot of time at the vets and if they required long term treatment, we would have to put them down. I could not imagine treating a diabetic pet with insulin. I have a diabetic daughter and that is definitely my limit. However, because of this we also limit the number of pets we keep. For now, just 1 dog and the 4 chickens.


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If my dogs are going to be around the family, then I just feel better when the are properly vaccinated and their teeth are clean. I'm still looking for the bumper sticker - I Kissed a Dog and I Liked It.


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Tish, you pose an interesting question regarding the aspirin, one I should try to find an answer to.

As far as pet care goes, everyone has a different approach to what they find to be appropriate. I suspect mine might differ from many.


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I try to limit the number of cats that own me to 3, but hobo's happen. Most of the cats that own me live an average of 15 years. And they are happy, as are the freeloaders.


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Steve: "Recently, I looked into the kitchen and saw 6 animals grazing on the 2 plates of canned cat food and really expected 4. Two of them looked up, I saw the masks and knew they were raccoon's. I yelled and all 6 fled through the door, but the cats came back.
It's all good. If the raccoons didn't do so much damage (like opening the refrigerator to do a shopping tour), I'd feed them too."

You made me laugh SO hard! Priceless. Thanks for sharing that. ;-D


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jODIK D o you do extractions and , if so what do you use for anaesthetic. or do you do it without?
do you clean teeth? and if your dogs donr require this then what did you mean by "we do dental"?


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Routine teeth cleanings don't require any anesthetic... our dogs don't mind it at all and don't object. It's a normal part of care. There shouldn't be any pain involved in routine cleaning, and if there is something is wrong. We've only had to do one simple extraction in the last 20 years or so, and we used the same things a dentist would use.

When dogs eat a more natural diet, and their teeth are cleaned and checked on a regular basis, there isn't any need to set up a whole dental office. Having a decent genetic base to begin with is an added bonus.

It's very common for rural folk to take care of their own dental and medical issues, whether we're talking about pets, livestock, or even themselves. Affordability is one reason, logistics are another, and it's much less stressful for an animal to be cared for at home, in its own environment where it feels comfortable.

There's no real reason to seek out someone else to do the exact same things we can do right here at home. We are not your average pet owners.

Most routine care CAN be accomplished by the average pet owner with a modicum of logic and common sense. One simply requires the knowledge, the tools, and to gain a little experience.

Lily, it would be easy to teach you the basics of home pet care. Giving booster shots, cleaning teeth, and doing all the normal, usual care is quite simple, really. Most things required are available through pet or livestock supply companies.


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from jodik
"We've only had to do one simple extraction in the last 20 years or so, and we used the same things a dentist would use. "

did you then put your dog under an anaethestic for this extraction? if so where did you obtain the required drugs? and where did you t rain to do this? if not , can you explain what you mean by saying you use d the samethigs a vet would use?


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Steve that was a good chuckle for the night.

I have never feed my dogs or cats pet food. They get fresh meat from the grocery store. The vet sells a dry veggie vitamin supplement that is added to the fresh meat. ground beef, liver for the dog. Other dogs I have used chicken but this dog is allergic to chicken. For the cat,,,, liver, salad shrimp, tuna, chicken and salmon. It is definitely not any more expensive than the pet food unless people are buying the dollar store junk.

I had my last dog 18 years. She got arthritis so bad she could no longer walk so I had to put her down.


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FYI for cat owners: Some here have mentioned taking their cats in for annual vaccinations. If your cat is indoors-only, it does not need annual vaccinations! The more times a cat is stuck with a vaccine-bearing needle, the more the chances are increased that it will contract vaccine-associated fibrosarcoma. To be sure, this is not a common disease, and odds are that a cat will never get it. But it is common enough that all vets know about it, and most have changed their vaccination protocols because of it; likewise, pharmaceutical companies have worked to change the contents, stability, and keeping temperature of vaccines. Nevertheless it continues to appear, with owners coming online to wail (justifiably) that they had never heard of this disease.

Fibrosarcoma is a cancerous tumor that develops in the fascia, the thin lining between the muscles. It is a lethal disease - few humans or cats survive, because by the time it's noticed the painless tumor has grown large enough to send out microscopic tendrils that escape the surgeon's scalpel, so eventually the tumor returns. If allowed the tumor will grow to an outrageous size and finally burst. I'll leave out further details.

The reason I care so deeply about this is because we lost a cat, a little gray tabby, to VAS several years ago. She was a lucky kitty; her disease was very slow-moving, and she was comfortable and otherwise healthy for almost all of her remaining three and a half years. We had three scruff surgeries for her over the course of two and a half years, and then quit, and she had another year. During that time I joined an online support group which was very informative and helpful, and I learned a lot about this disease and the situation which causes it.

I have continued to have our present two cats vaccinated, but rarely, and I make sure that the vet follows the protocols:

1. NEVER vaccinate in the scruff, between the shoulder blades. EVER.

2. For the kitten equivalent of a baby's dpt series, the one against distemper, etc., vaccinate on the exterior side of the shoulder blade, iow, virtually against the bone.

3. For rabies, vaccinate as low as possible on the RIGHT hind leg.

4. For feline leukemia, vaccninate as low as possible on the LEFT hind leg.

Rabies = Right lower leg. Leukemia = Left lower leg.

The reason for vaccinating in these locations is so that if, God forbid, the kitty develops VAS, the offending limb can be amputated. Three-legged cats generally do quite well.

5. Consider how often your cat needs to be vaccinated. If the cat is allowed outside, then all bets are off, although I think that vets are often overvaccinating these animals as well. But if the cat is indoors, the kitten vaccines can stop after their boosters, with perhaps one more booster around age two or three. The vets I've dealt with agree that the Feleuk vaccine can be given every other year and stopped at around age 5 or 6. This is especially true if you never bring strange cats into the house (like strays or other cats for fostering), and, if you Wash Your Hands after handling other felines.

Rabies is trickier. I've allowed my cats to have this vaccine every 2 to 3 years, using the one-year non-adjuvenated med. Not happy about that, though. It's the substance most commonly associated with VAS. And once we're in VAS territory - with all its possible treatments - we are way beyond the cost of pills, etc.

There are other useful online sites besides the link below.

Here is a link that might be useful: Vaccine-Associated Fibrosarcoma (VAS)


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Sable, I have two friends who have lost cats to fibrosarcoma. It's one of the reasons my cats don't get shots, except for the original ones given the first year. It's the law in PA to have the rabies vaccine for all animals. Of course I do for my dogs who are out and about and to the doggie park, but my cats have never been out of the house except for their trip to the vets. One exception to the law, it doesn't apply to barn cats farmers have. Is that crazy or what? My cats who wouldn't leave if the doors were wide open, or cats who live outside in the country where rabid animals could be.


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Lily, you probably know that VAS is so rare among dogs that it is not considered problematic. How do your vets react to your refusal to vaccinate your cats? We have had five vets over the years; when they've mentioned shots I've just explained how hesitant I am because of our gray tabby, and they back off, usually saying "I am just informing you of what the law and the recommendations are." With our two now I alternated rabies one year and feleuk the next until they were about seven. No more, now.

But I'm not lecturing anyone to swear off vaccinations. Rabies is a terrifying disease and much worse than VAS. People just need to be aware.

There is a book I think you'd enjoy, from what I've read of your taste in books and tv over on the KT. What Remains: A Memoir of Fate, Friendship & Love, by Carole Radziwill. Carole is the widow of Anthony Radziwill, the son of Lee Radziwill, Jackie Kennedy's sister, and first cousin to JFK Jr. It's the story of the very very close friendship of Anthony and Carole and John Jr. and his wife, Carolyn. But mainly it's about Anthony's battle with fibrosarcoma. It was, as it is with cats, painless and slow-growing, but it eventually killed him. The best doctors in the country threw at it everything they had, including experimental treatments, and nothing worked. Anthony died three weeks after John Jr. and his wife were killed in the plane crash, and Carole was left reeling. When I read a review and saw the nasty fibro word, I ordered it immediately. It actually helped me get over losing Miss Kitty. Anyway, it's not too long and is quite well-written.


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Regarding cat vaccinations - I lost one in 2009 to fibrosarcoma, but they are doing things differently now and I don't expect to lose one again. That one was 16 years old.

For one, there are at least two of the vaccinations available in 3-year shots, including the required rabies. I choose 3-year rabies shots for my younger cats (not for those over 12).

Two, they rotate the shots and keep track on the chart where the last vaccine was given (left, right, shoulder, hind quarters, etc.) so that they don't use the same spot two times in a row.

Third, my vet is a big advocate of using titers instead to see, for the non-required shots, if the cat actually needs one.


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What, is this some kind of official probe into how any alleged items that may or may not have been used might or might not have been obtained by members of the general public and why, or something? Are you collecting data for a publication?

Anything you want to know can be learned by educating yourself, the exact same way we educated ourselves. If you want to know that bad, my husband, though retired, might be available for consultation... though his services aren't free.

Nothing fantastical was utilized... nothing different than any average dentist might have. We're not talking about surgery, here... though that wouldn't present any problems in or of itself, which is neither here nor there. We're talking about the simple pulling of a tooth that needed to come out.

Apparently you have no notion of how country folk operate... we don't call in a team of professionals every time a little something needs to be done. We use our own skills, acquired over time, to take care of any issues that crop up.

Do you think every farmer calls in a veterinarian every time one member of his large herd has an issue? No. He keeps an extensive array of tools and medicines handy so he can treat his own animals.

What is it some find so objectionable about a conscientious, knowledgeable, third generation canine breeder handling his own medical issues and ensuring his own dogs are kept healthy and sound?


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RE: cost of dog ( cat) medication

Sable, being a huge Kennedy fan, I certainly remember Anthony Radziwill and that he died right after JFK jr, his best friend. In fact he was at the ceremony on the boat when the service was held for John, Carolyn, and her sister, and died shortly after. But I never knew exactly what killed him . I knew it was some kind of cancer. I'll read the book. Thanks.


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RE: cost of dog ( cat) medication

Years ago a friend pointed me to Companion Pet Clinics in Washington and Oregon. They were an excellent value at that time. She said (I can't confirm this) that they were started by vets who wanted to make sure costs were low enough that people could afford to seek care for pets who needed it. Does anyone here use these clinics for their furbabies? You can google a price list for some of their basic fees.


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RE: cost of dog ( cat) medication

No, but that's a good idea, Nik... vet prices are off the charts these days.

Can you imagine what it would cost to take each of 40 or so dogs in to a vet's office every time something simple needed to be done, or every time anything routine was necessary? It costs quite enough to vaccinate for rabies and pay the county fees every 3 years.

Medical costs should not equal a rape job for people OR pets!


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RE: cost of dog ( cat) medication

I goggled vets in my area. There are 255 within half hour of my house at least 75 of them are within 15 minutes. There is no way they would try to charge us crazy vet fees.

The one I use his office is next to his house. He also has a daycare and vacation care facility. It is run with him and his wife daughter. They are so sweet my pets love them.


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Lily: "One exception to the law, it doesn't apply to barn cats farmers have. Is that crazy or what?"

Yes, "crazy", if it was correct. You have erroneous information.

"16.41. Rabies vaccination required.
A person living in this Commonwealth owning or keeping a dog or cat over 3 months of age shall have the dog or cat vaccinated against rabies under the act and this chapter.

§ 16.42. Persons authorized to administer vaccine.
Rabies vaccine shall be administered only by or under the supervision of a licensed veterinarian. An owner of a State-licensed private or breeding kennel and an operator of a State-licensed nonprofit kennel who has been examined and certified by the Department under Subchapter D (relating to certification of owners and operators of State-licensed kennels) may administer rabies vaccine to a dog or cat which is owned by the private or breeding kennel or which is in the possession of the nonprofit kennel.

§ 16.43. Revaccination.
A dog or cat over 3 months of age shall be vaccinated to maintain immunity against rabies by the administration of a USDA licensed vaccine, including vaccines producing immunity lasting 3 years, in accordance with instructions prescribed by the manufacturer.

(1) A dog or cat vaccinated when under 1 year of age shall be revaccinated no later than 1 year later.

(2) A dog or cat vaccinated when over 1 year of age with a vaccine producing immunity lasting 3 years shall be revaccinated no later than 3 years later and at least every 3 years thereafter.

(3) A dog or cat vaccinated with a vaccine producing immunity lasting less than 3 years shall be revaccinated no later than 1 year later.

§ 16.44. Vaccination certificate and tag.
A veterinarian shall issue a certificate of vaccination and a vaccination tag for each dog or cat vaccinated by the veterinarian or vaccinated under his supervision. A certificate of vaccination may be transferred to a new owner. The vaccination tag shall be a metal tag that is approximately 1 square inch in area that can be attached to an animal’s collar or harness and that is indelibly marked with the year of the rabies vaccination.

§ 16.45. Production of certificate of vaccination required.
A person owning or keeping a dog or cat over 3 months of age shall, upon request of a police officer or State dog warden or designated municipal animal control officer, produce within 48 hours a valid certificate of vaccination. A certified owner and operator of a State-licensed kennel shall present records required under § 16.63(5) (relating to vaccination requirements) as proof of rabies vaccination.

§ 16.46. Certificate required for out-of-State dog or cat.
A dog or cat over 3 months of age brought into this Commonwealth shall be accompanied by a certificate of vaccination.

§ 16.47. Grace period for State-licensed nonprofit kennel.
A State-licensed nonprofit kennel is not required to vaccinate a dog or cat received by the kennel for a period of 10 days from the date received."

No part of the information on this site may be reproduced for profit or sold for profit.

This material has been drawn directly from the official Pennsylvania Code full text database. Due to the limitations of HTML or differences in display capabilities of different browsers, this version may differ slightly from the official printed version.

---------

I wonder if most people realize that many state laws don't require rabies vaccination annually. It's a pretty dangerous shot. Necessary if your pet is in contact with other animals, but a pretty harsh shot one does not want to overdo.


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RE: cost of dog ( cat) medication

Jodik why a rant instead of an answer. You said you used what a dentist would use and you told me that you removed your dogs tooth. why a rant instead of a simple answer?
You didnt answer the question. I asked you if you used an anesethic when you removed your dogs tooth?
can you answet that? did you give the dog pain relief? or did you remove it without sedating the dog?
why are you being so evasive. just a simple question

Why am I interested? that is an age old technique of deflection...question the askers motives to deflect from the fact that you wont answer the question.

was the dog sedated? did it have pain relief during the procedure?


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Here vaccines are required. Without a vaccine you cannot register them with the county. You definitely want your dog tagged in the event he gets lost and picked up by animal control.

Isn't "Barn Cat" basically a euphemism for a stray? In that case how would anyone be expected or required to vaccinate it?

This post was edited by jerzeegirl on Thu, Sep 12, 13 at 19:13


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RE: cost of dog ( cat) medication

Disclaimer: I have a family member who is a vet.

I suggest that the next time you go into a vet's facility that you compare what you see there to what you see at your doctor's office. The cost of running a vet office is not too different from that of running a doctor's office when you consider the physical requirements and staff.

Vets spend at least four years after their bachelors in vet school. They can then go on to specialize and become board certified which may take an additional 4 to 6 years.

Did you know that it is more difficult to get into vet school than medical school? There are something like 29 vet schools in the US. When my relative applied there were over 900 applicants for 90 spots at one of schools she applied to.

This post was edited by jlhug on Fri, Sep 13, 13 at 5:56


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"Here vaccines are required."

Here too. Rabies every 3 years. "Annually" was my point. If you were addressing my post, that is.

"Isn't "Barn Cat" basically a euphemism for a stray?"

Could be. Depends on how one defines "barn cat," I suppose. Lily said "it doesn't apply to barn cats farmers have." "Have" implies some sort of ownership, IMO.


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Jhug, I agree with you.

My nephew was just accepted into the veterinary pogramme at Guelph University. Third try and only after he got an undergraduate degree and a Masters.....all with top marks.

I have huge respect for vets, their knowledge and compassion.....for some reason all the vets I have dealt with are incredibly compassionate.

They earn every penny in my view.


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I think a lot of women go into veterinary medicine. Our last five vets have been women!


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The local clinic we use has 3 vets; owned by one of them. All 3 are women. ;-) I prefer a female vet; I also prefer a female doctor for me. DH prefers a male doc.


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RE: cost of dog ( cat) medication

I dont have a problem with a vet charging what the community will pay. Obviously, my community can generally pay the charges set by most of the vets here. Frankly Im surprised that the charges can hold up since this is a modest income community they service. People here do value their pets if they support these charges and Im glad for it.
I didnt know the standards required to be granted admittance into vet school were so high and it certainly gives me a new respect and appreciation for the knowledge they must acquire in order to get their license. It would be great for that information to become common knowledge.
Im also grateful that I was able to find this vet who's charges for services needed arent as high as most around here - responsible pet care would become something out of affordability for the average family and I never, ever want that to happen.
I feel strongly that if I decide to bring a pet (who has no say in the matter) into my home, a contract has been made between the pet and the myself. The pet is to provide what it is pet owners generally are after on an emotional basis and the owner's obligation is to see to the pet's needs which would include decent nutrition, safety, security, emotional and health care needs.
I dont want to come off in any way offensive in this- I do realize others might set certain limits on what they feel is obligated to their pet, limits different from my own. Everyone has the right to decide for themselves what their financial obligation is to a household animal, I hope I am clear on this as I have come to realize that without intent I can come off offensive somehow (the times when it is unintentional) with my written word, its something Im upset over and trying to correct this tendency.

With that said, I would not put my pet down because she is arthritic IF there is medication available which is able to ease her pain to the point where life is still roundly enjoyed with her active participation in it. If her chronic pain progressed beyond that point, then I would do for her what I wish the medical community would do for me under the same conditions of unmanageable chronic pain.

Even if the medication caused a true financial hit but I could still manage it, I would provide it for as long as I was able. I have no children to be responsible for, its only my Mr. and me and he feels even more an inclination in this direction than do I.
Again, I do realize that others might not agree with me on this point and Im fine with it, everyone is entitled to their own perspective on this issue, it is a complicated issue for a lot of us as it IS animals we are talking about, not human beings.
My big ( and as of yet, my only) problem with the vet was with the charge they were going to inflict on us over the medication they recommended for my dogs chronic pain. The dog was taken off the aspirin of three times a day and went on the new medication three times a day for several days, perhaps a week or two, before the deep cleaning took place. In that time there was a real, viable difference in her, more active, more interactive etc. on the different medication. So of course we were all for making the change.

But the charge they were marking it up? Granted, we were warned - not that they charged a ridiculous markup - but that it would be an expensive medication over time at about $1 per pill three times a day for life. My last lab lived 18 years before it was finally her time. If this one has that life span, its six years of those marked up pricing.

That Costco makes a profit on charging only $12 and change for a *90 day supply* leads me to think that if that mark up isnt against the law, it should be.
Had I been buying enough for treatment for discomfort for a few days after a surgery or tooth extraction, this would not be an issue. But this is continuing ongoing charges they were going to inflict on us for chronic pain management for the remainder of her life and that is what really galls me. What if we decided that we simply could not afford it and ended her life, causing needless early anguish and guilt to us and life my dog was etitled to still enjoy? Or worse - just let her suffer in pain until something else killed her?
She also has a thyroid issue she has needed daily medication for since the age of three, it was always a fairly inexpensive medicine at my now retired (female) vet's office, I hope I will find the same with the new vet when its time for a new supply. As long as its not outrageously priced Im more than willing to buy at an increased price from my new vet. I didnt even realize there was a problem with pain medication over-pricing until I checked around on the internet to see if I could find the same medication with at least a modest savings.

When I began to think I would want another dog after my beloved yellow lab dies someday, I decided on a small dog for a great variety of reasons including that I could be in my mid 70's when a little dog with a very long lifespan died. I decided on small in case we were not in great shape ourselves, we needed to be able physically to care for it and get it in the car for transportation to the vet etc. It took me three years to decide to get another one because I had to be as certain as possible that it was a commitment I was truly prepared to take on, one including vet bills, perhaps great inconvenience at times in our retired years, even expensive treatments (for a relatively young pet) if it will cure the problem or treat so effectively that the issue isnt something that ruins their comfort and joy in living. A lot to consider for a couple who's spring chicken days are behind them, even if we have always taken good care of ourselves. We are entering the years of uncertainty and getting a second dog was no small decision to make.

I know others might feel that at great vet expenses to effectively treat or cure a pet, the funds might be better donated to a sick child etc, and for a very long time I felt the same. Its an issue Im still conflicted over to a certain degree.. It was that sort of issue which took me three years of pondering before I felt ready to be committed to getting yet another dog with a very long lifespan - because sometimes the bill comes due.
Over time, I did change my mind on certain issues and did rewrite the contract I felt a pet and I entered into when I decided to bring one into my home, in that Im now prepared to make true financial sacrifice under certain conditions but only if it will mean a healthy and good life for my pet - perhaps sacrifice many would think unreasonable for an animal.
Im not completely certain Im taking the right road as far as 'pet ownership integrity' goes, but Im also not sure its the wrong road either. I guess we all just do the best we can on these sort if issues.

As long as my yellow girl can feel honestly good and continue to enjoy her life AND we are able to cover the cost of a good quality of life for her, that is what I feel right within myself to provide, even if it should get difficult to provide.

I would be interested if you jhug or Chase would offer me your take on the ethics of the markup on my dogs pain medication. Im outraged by it, but from what the Costco tech insinuated, this is a common thread among local vets - to dramatically mark up medication they dispense.
Is there an angle to this I might not be seeing? A perspective I should consider?
Otherwise, people Ive talked to really like the vet(vets, its a couple in the same practice) though I did get the impression she was not happy that I went elsewhere for the medication. I can only hope that is a mistaken impression as were it me I would be embarrassed at the mark up being discovered.

But, I might have truly misread the reaction, too. At any rate thanks for the information about vet education and thanks everyone for the participation on this thread, I have been given a lot to think about.


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RE: cost of dog ( cat) medication

Mylab, I understand your concern about pet prescriptions. Costco can buy drugs in huge quantities compared to what a vet's office can buy, especially a small independent practice. A small vet practice has to consider the shelf life of drug where a big chain will move more inventory faster so expiration dates aren't as big of a problem as it is for the small vet practice. Costco can spread the overhead over a much larger volume of customers than a vet office can. While some vet offices may price gouge on drugs, others don't have much profit margin on them.

As far as the $10 charge for writing a prescription, I can understand that. Writing a prescription, printing and signing it does take time that the vet could be doing something else. If the prescription is filled in house, there is no cost other than making the entry in the patient's record. The entry must be made whether or not there is a paper prescription printed and signed. I can also understand the vet's reluctance to write a scrip for a 90 day supply of a controlled substance due to his potential liability if the drug is misused. I don't expect to get things like that for free. When we do a tax return, we give the client a copy of the return at the time it was completed. If they lose their copy, we charge them because it takes time, paper, ink, etc. to print it.


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The more simplistic answer, for those who don't know or can't understand what a vet kit might be, is yes... an anesthetic was/is always used for anything that might be painful. That should have been fairly obvious from the beginning. Let's not be ridiculous in our zeal to crucify, shall we?

A vet kit consists of all the tools, supplies, and medications one might need to perform routine or emergency medical or dental care or treatment on site. Every responsible breeder or practitioner of animal husbandry has one, and keeps it well supplied.

It's not that tricky to vaccinate barn cats... if necessary, one can live-trap them and treat them... then release them back to the farmyard.

It's important that all animals are properly vaccinated, wormed, and/or treated monthly or annually for a variety of possibilities, including but not limited to... rabies, parasites, coccidea, distemper, parvo, lepto, etc... most pet or farm supply companies carry everything necessary, excepting rabies vaccinations in some states. Refer to your own state or county regulations.

Let's be perfectly clear... money is not synonymous with good animal care... nor does it make one a respectable, responsible breeder or animal caretaker. It's not synonymous with proper knowledge, nor does it indicate quality in breeding.

If one has the funds to step into a vet or doctor's office to have routine checks or other care performed, more power to you. Not everyone does. But that should not preclude you from getting the care you need, nor should it eliminate one from pet ownership.

There's absolutely no reason a knowledgeable, experienced animal caretaker can't or shouldn't perform a good majority of routine or emergency care on their own animals.

Not all veterinarians are animal lovers, not all are compassionate, and many charge over the top prices for what are very common items or practices, and not all pet owners can afford those inflated charges.

Sometimes, the best treatments are the old fashioned or more natural kind... and as always, good health begins with solid genetics and proper nutrition and environment.


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so you gave your dog an anaesthetic, my other question to you was ....where did you receive training for this serious procedure?

Jodik we have a SERIOUSLY different view on what procedures can be undertaken by the backyard quasi vet.

as you only performed this procedure once in 20 years and teeth cleaning ...by your admission does not require any sedation I have to assume that you had no professionaltraining for this?
did you read a book or what?
"not all pet owners can afford inflated prices" yet, you did make money by selling dogs. You have said many times that your husband and yourself are respected and well known dog breeders....presumably this involved some financial gain.
In your shoes I would have invested some of my profit in providing my dog who required a tooth extraction the comfort of professional.care
once again , where you and I differ.

and I do put my money where my mouth is...having invested serious money into the vet care of my animals over the years.


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Exactly how difficult do you think it is to administer a topical numbing agent followed by an injectable solution to deaden an area to be worked on? And this is exactly what a dentist does for a simple extraction!

Administering an injection is a very rudimentary skill everyone who deals with animals on a certain scale should know how to accomplish! On the other hand, it's not too terribly difficult to set up an IV unit, either. Good grief!

You might change your mind about a few things if you ever spent a reasonable amount of time living and working with livestock or other animals waaaay out in the outback, where civilization isn't just down the block, a quick phone call away, or around the nearest corner... and everything is left to you to handle on your own... everything!

And that would include, but not be limited to putting down aging and suffering animals, dealing with emergency situations, butchering and putting up your own meat supply, and handling anything that comes your way, from the simplest of preventive care to the most outrageous emergency you can think of... because plenty of outrageous things happen on farms! One has to deal with blood, injury, fecal matter, infection, wounds, the works!

You speak about simple procedures as though one needs to be a rocket scientist with several college degrees hung on the wall to apply what amounts to basic knowledge! Exactly how incapable do you think we are?!

We haven't been in the game for over 30 years without learning a thing or two... with 3 generations of knowledge and experience to back us up!

Sure... if you're pumping out litter after litter of puppies and selling them all day long, irrespective of proper, time honored procedure and responsibility, you might be able to boast making a lot of coin. But we've never done that.

A truly responsible breeder barely makes enough to cover his expenses... but this is ground we've covered before... more times than I can count.

This is a subject we're not going to see eye to eye on, and I'm not playing 20 questions AGAIN for your satisfaction. We have a responsibility to our animals, and we carry it out with every bit as much care and compassion as any vet could ever hope to muster... so the discussion of our practices ends now.

I'm not traveling down this road yet again so you can thrash me for not adhering to some commonly held public misconceptions or standards or other that some money grubbing dog registry spews about breeding, or what you think are acceptable practices even though you've never spent time in a remotely similar situation.

Good day to you, I say.


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RE: cost of dog ( cat) medication

One of the advantages of living in seriously overpriced Cambridge is the outstanding vets school attached to the uni - which will do all sorts of procedures for cost of the meds, tests and X-rays, if you are on a low income (which we are). True, money has to be handed over upfront and at 400 pounds for a hysterectomy for the aged collie, it ate into our living expenses....but was vastly cheaper than the couple of thousand a vet would be asking.....and when the op failed and she had to go back into surgery the next day, no extra charge.

I clean my dogs teeth with an ordinary toothbrush (but omit the minty stuff) - she squirms a bit, but it will be a cold day in hell when we can afford to pay for doggy tooth cleaning.

Annoyingly, TV chefs have cornered the cheap cuts market so old standbys such as breast of lamb and oxtail, now command sirloin prices. Even so, we still have decent butchers who will put aside a marrow bone and various scrag-end neck of lamb cuts so we are not relying on the tinned dog food market for everything (although, in emergency, I will open a tin -of pilchards, usually, but not in tomato sauce, just as we would do for ourselves).

When this one goes (she is 16), I cannot see us getting another.


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you said you anesthatised your dog. waht you describe is not that.

that is not how a vet removes teeth.

I was wondering where you got the respirator from. Please dont be so sloppy with your use of words....and if you cant support your statemetns with the relevant facts...then I suggest you dont make them..and you know nothing about me and how I have spent my time.
the only person who would know anything about me (other than what I chose to write on this forum) is someone who had been stalking me...and we all know that that is not acceptable


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"You might change your mind about a few things if you ever spent a reasonable amount of time living and working with livestock or other animals waaaay out in the outback, where civilization isn't just down the block, a quick phone call away, or around the nearest corner... and everything is left to you to handle on your own... everything! " from jodik.
You never saaid you did your own vet work because vets were not avaialbe ...you just said you would not pay for vet care.


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That's another reason... why should I pay someone an exorbitant amount of money to do the exact same thing I can do at home? "Here, let me hand you several hundred dollars that I don't really have to spend so I can watch you do the same things I'd do." That doesn't even make logical sense.

It's much more stressful for the animal to be taken out of its familiar space, driven to a building that smells like fear, other unknown animals, and a plethora of unfamiliar scents.. and have someone they only see once in a great while do the exact same things I can do, in a familiar place, without the fear or stress, and without the anxiety of a long car ride.

And it's especially stressful when the vet in question very obviously doesn't like working with dogs or cats, actually fears being bitten, and much prefers working with cows or horses. It's a recipe for disaster. And I detest having pet products and feed brands pushed at me by those who work at that particular vet... the only one in any kind of proximity. If they knew anything about feeds or canine nutrition, they sure wouldn't be pushing a product which lists the first ingredient as "cornmeal product".

You know very well that we live rurally... I've only mentioned that a few dozen times. We live so rurally that all the roads aren't even paved, the neighbor's house isn't even visible, and it takes quite a drive to reach anywhere.

City and suburban folks just don't get country folks, I guess... I shouldn't be surprised.


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You're just splitting hairs.

How we do things within our environment, with the supplies we have available, is more than adequate. The dog experiences no pain, no trauma, and no infection.

Why on earth would I take the risk that complete anesthesia comes with if I don't have to? A vet doesn't have to do that, either... but it sure does pad the bill they give you, doesn't it?

You must have never watched an old fashioned country vet at work...


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RE: cost of dog ( cat) medication

Jodi, it sounds like you just do local anesthesia and not general anesthesia. Is that correct?

Where do you buy the drugs necessary for anesthesia and euthanasia? I've gotten many farm animal catalogs and don't recall seeing either for sale.


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RE: cost of dog ( cat) medication

No, you probably won't find everything in your average farm or pet supply catalog... some things you simply have to locate for yourself...

Enough said.


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RE: cost of dog ( cat) medication

My mind boggles at the concept of trying to extract a tooth from a dog's mouth using local anesthetic only.

& you can't buy euthanasia drugs;
they're narcotics or controlled substances (not sure of the difference if any), & you have to have a federal license for them.

"Euthanasia" is sometimes a euphemism for shooting an animal.


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RE: cost of dog ( cat) medication

How do you normally get teeth pulled?

I get a shot or two of Novocaine after a little topical is rubbed on the gum area. I don't like to be put under for a simple extraction... and it's not necessary to put a dog under just to yank out a tooth that's loose to begin with.

The only thing I'd want to be put under for would be actual oral surgery. It's less dangerous to use Novocaine... or Lidocaine, actually... than it is to use a cocktail of other substances which would put the dog completely out.

Why would it be necessary to completely anesthetize an animal for a simple procedure?


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RE: cost of dog ( cat) medication

The only thing I'd want to be put under for would be actual oral surgery.

I have had oral surgery on three areas of my gums to reduce pockets and even that's done with novocaine. And it didn't hurt at all. Even afterwards.


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RE: cost of dog ( cat) medication

sorry, thought we were talking about dogs, not huumans.

I'd think a dog would squirm & whine & possibly panic if he had a loose tooth that might be hurting & then his owner stuck her hand inside his mouth.


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RE: cost of dog ( cat) medication

Sylvia, you are quite right. My vet , who is exceptional in his ability to handle animals, always puts our pets under when doing dental work.

There is no way she would ever stay still in order to let the vet do this job. In fact the vet said there was more risk in her being hurt from fighting the procedure than from the anesthetic.

I suppose it's different if it's your own animal, you can do what you want I guess, but I prefer a trained professional to "doctor" my pets.


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RE: cost of dog ( cat) medication

One of the vets we used to use quite a bit once told my husband that he really wished people would train their dogs better, because he refused to sedate an animal if he didn't have to. The risks are too great.

There's no reason your own animal should ever panic from your touch. Our dogs come to us when they don't feel well, seeking help. No matter what the issue, they're never in an agitated, panicked state of fear.

I would not want a dog in my home that exhibited that type of fear or panic... that behavior is dangerous, an accident waiting to happen... especially if there are children present in the home.

The first thing you'd want to do is make certain there wasn't any infection involved, which would probably be rather painful, and would have to be treated before anything else was done. If such was the case, you'd administer a course of antibiotics, and wait until the infection was cleared up before proceeding further.

Oftentimes, depending on how well you know your veterinarian, he or she will write you prescriptions for the medications or substances required to perform certain tasks yourself. Of course, you'd have to be competent and experienced, and your vet would have to trust that you could handle the tasks yourself.

Oftentimes, if you volunteer, a veterinarian will allow you to tag along on calls, and to assist them, or observe techniques as they perform certain tasks... over time, one learns to perform various tasks oneself... and experiences are often gained through other avenues... but after 30 years, one should know just a wee bit more than how to operate a pooper scooper.

I've never had a dog that I owned pull away from me when I wanted to check them over closely or do something like clipping nails, cleaning ears, administering booster shots or injectable antibiotics, teeth cleaning, or any medical care. They're usually happy for the interaction, and if they do happen to be experiencing any pain, they rarely show it... they're bulldogs; they have a high tolerance for pain. They're mainly just glad that we care enough to help them... and we have to be doubly observant because of their high pain tolerance.

They are well trained and obedient, and if told to sit, that's exactly what they do. They don't get up and walk away... until we tell them to. And they darn sure don't pull away in fear or panic.

We're not talking about performing a triple bypass on the kitchen table, here... we're talking about a simple procedure that doesn't require a full blown, knock down sedation of the animal. Good grief!

Jerzee, I'm a bit of a baby when it comes to pain, myself... so if I were ever to get my teeth fixed like I should have them fixed, I'd probably want a little more than Novocaine. ;-)


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from Sylvia
"My mind boggles at the concept of trying to extract a tooth from a dog's mouth using local anesthetic only.

& you can't buy euthanasia drugs;
they're narcotics or controlled substances (not sure of the difference if any), & you have to have a federal license for them.

"Euthanasia" is sometimes a euphemism for shooting an animal. "

yes I agree There is no way that a tooth extraction is a simple procedure for a dog. what if the tooth shatters? are you prepared for that Jodik?
so it is a little bit of "local" is it then you approach the dogs mouth with a set of dental pliers?

and your dog sat quietly through all this because of its " superior breeding?"
Do you ever listen to yourself?


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RE: cost of dog ( cat) medication

Jodi, it does sound a tad serious:

"Good technique requires careful planning. Consider if extraction is necessary, and if so, how is it best accomplished. Review the root morphology and surrounding structures using pre-operative radiographs. Make sure you have all the equipment you need, and plan pre and post-operative management."

I know others who do their own pet vaccines, express anal glands, cleaning ears, teeth (I do that for my pets) etc., but maybe actual surgery is just a bit over your pay grade.

Here is a link that might be useful: extraction of teeth in the dog and cat


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RE: cost of dog ( cat) medication

for example, from Elvis's link

"Large, chronic, functional oral nasal fistula at site of 104


This complication can occur in any location from the upper canines, caudally. Oro-nasal refers to a communication between the oral and nasal cavity - most commonly at the site of the maxillary canine. Oro-antral refers to a communication between the oral cavity and the maxillary sinus - most common following upper premolar 4 (carnassial) extraction. They are most common where the bone plates are thinnest - either naturally or after periodontal or metabolic disease.

Correct attention at the time of extraction can limit the need for complex flap surgery later.

Debride socket gently with 0.05% chlorhexidine gluconate (CHX Solution™: St Jon VRx Products) and fill with alloplastic graft material if a solid floor is present. This may require a mesh type product (BioSyst™) followed by BoneGlass (Consil™). Suture tissues should be sutured without tension. Treat with suitable antibiotics.

Review after four to six weeks to identify the need for flap surgery. This timeframe will allow for wound contraction.

The main reasons for dehiscence of flaps are:

Chronic osteitis at site from local infection
Tension on sutures
Suture lines unsupported and located over a void.

Expect 20% contraction of soft tissue during healing. Tension on flaps is usually due to poor flap design. To prevent this, ensure that the releasing incisions are made off the target tooth, preferably at the line angle of the teeth rostrally and caudally, and that the flap is sufficiently undermined before suturing.

Many ONF's stay open due to the pressure differential between the nasal and oral cavities. After six weeks, if the ONF is large enough to cause chronic rhinitis and sneezing, closure by flap surgery is indicated."

just as an example , of course

How did you know that the tooth eeded extraction Jodik..did it just loot bad or what? how could you know what you were dealing with in the underlying tooth structure?



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RE: cost of dog ( cat) medication

I did take out one of my own (teeth) with a good pair of pliers and a hefty shot of brandy afterwards..... but, as I have often whined, teeth are something of a sore point in the campanula household. I would probably bite the bullet and cough up the cash for the ancient collie though (as I don't fancy a chewed hand )


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Wow you are braver than me Campanula...but I guess you had the right to make that choice for yourself.

Like you , I would bite the bullet and cough up the cash for the dog..


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Campanula... you can probably understand better than anyone the tasks one is willing, and able, to undertake when confronted with varying circumstances, finance and logistics among them... but that doesn't mean we are completely without competence or skill!

People who have visited us often remarked at the remoteness, the isolation of where we chose to live. It does make more sense for us to reside in a place zoned specifically for agriculture, though... and we enjoy the solitude, without the press of bodies and traffic, the smog and noise, the restrictions and whatnot.

But it also means that we are more or less forced to take on a lot of responsibilities that urban folk would 'farm out' to others. Some people just aren't cut out to work and live, or deal with the realities of life on the farm, as it were.

Anyway...

How did I know this would turn into the usual inquisition? Well, I had a gut feeling it would from the very first line I typed... way above. What compelled me to go ahead, knowing the firestorm the few would create out of it, I don't know... I've lived a unique life, and I like to share little bits of it with others who haven't walked the same path, I suppose.

I can't figure out whether some people don't read what I write, or whether they are truly inept at gathering necessary information from my words. I don't believe my writing is that difficult to follow. Is it? Every clue necessary to put the simple story into context and perspective has been written. So I can only think the thread is rapidly devolving into the usual antics for the usual reasons.

How, or why, does anyone undertake any task? How does anyone know when something needs to be done? We look at a situation critically, and we just do what is required.

How does one obtain the necessary tools or other items required for any job? How does anyone get anything they might need?

In our... interaction... with the general public, past and present... with the many people we've crossed paths with and continue to meet... it has become glaringly obvious that a goodly number of humans would never make it if taken out of their comfortable, convenient urban environments and plunked down in a rural setting where they were forced to rely upon themselves and their own ingenuity and skill to deal with the trials and tribulations of every day life.

Must we wear the official badge of Firefighter in order to douse a flame? Must we have studied extensively under a Master Chef to cook supper? Hardly. Just as a marriage license is not an indication of commitment, neither is a diploma or degree evidence of knowledge or skill. So when it comes to what amounts to the very basics of animal husbandry, only skill and experience, and the gifts of critical thought and common sense are necessary to carry out the many jobs involved in the upkeep of animal health, from birth to death.

Should I be forced to write a novel detailing every assignment involved in our profession, which is Animal Husbandry, more specifically Canine Breeding? No. It should suffice that we have retired from a successful career of working with the animals and breeds of our choice, and have taken the steps necessary to ensure the health and well being of every one of those animals, whether canine, bovine or any ruminant, feline, etc.

Consider the information you don't have, that you aren't yet privy to, youngquinn, to be trade secrets, if you wish. I can't think of a single reason you would need to know every detail of our many years involvement with the animals we kept and worked with. There isn't a single reason you need to know what we know... unless you are a breeder, who plans on moving way out to a rural patch of land to ply your trade... in which case my husband might be available for private consultation at a standard fee. You wouldn't be the first to pay for his knowledge and skill set.

But if you are that determined to learn for your own reasons, on your own, all the information that might be required is available within the public realm. One must simply search for it, and be prepared for a long journey through the histories, the sciences, and other areas of what is loosely termed "Animal Husbandry", the study and practice of breeding and rearing domestic animals.

Have a lovely day.


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RE: cost of dog ( cat) medication

I buy frontline in the largest dose available on eBay and split it up between my 3 dogs. The savings is ALOT. Well I was given a syringe from an eBay seller once to divide it up. The syringe broke after repeated uses. So I stopped at a vets office and told the guy working the front. "I need to purchase a syringe (WITHOUT A NEEDLE) to measure out flea and tick medicine to give to my dog.
He looked at me like I had just ask for a shot of morphine!!! Told me he could NOT sell me that! I again emphasize a syringe with NO NEEDLE? He could not sell me? For simply administering medication?
Well I guess he realized the ridiculous in this and told me he would have to get permission from the vet. He came out with the syringe and handed it to me and told me to "take it and GO!"

My own vet was closed that day, the reason I went there. My vet simply charges me .20 cents and hands it to me. I won't be visiting this place again!
I needed a 1cc or I would have got one from pharmacy. They typically only carry 3cc for administering baby medications.


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Disposable syringes for injection are always single use. The needle tip dulls considerably with one use, and it should be disposed of and a fresh syringe used for each animal, and each use.

If you're only using it to remove a liquid from its bottle and to measure for an oral dose, you can obtain several different sizes through various pet or farm supply outlets, from the more common 3ml size, to much larger capacity.

Jeffers is a decent supplier... they have a website... and there are many others. One can also obtain needles of various gauges and syringes at farm supply stores, like Rural King or Farm & Fleet... but I'm not sure those types of stores are common within urban or suburban areas. Usually, you find this type of supply store way out in the boonies, in the smaller farm oriented communities.

As the "dumbing down" of America edges ever closer to an "Idiocracy" like state, it becomes more and more difficult to obtain the normal supplies a farmer or animal caretaker might need. The regulations becomes stiffer, and the nanny state takes over, as though we require protection from ourselves and our own lack of common sense... even though this is far from the truth.

In some cases, you just have to know someone who has certain things, or knows where to find them, and is willing to help you out as a fellow farmer or animal caretaker.

For those of us who still retain the knowledge and skill sets required, a lot of things passed down through the generations, it becomes a bit frustrating to see how eagerly and willingly the general public hands over more and more of our freedom to do anything for ourselves.

And don't even get me started on the lack of simplistic knowledge and common sense out there, within the realm of the general public! It's one of the reasons we retired early, and have rather come to dislike dealing with the continual spread of misinformation, constantly having to correct or debunk fallacy... too often, it borders on the ridiculous.

I often wonder how people think the previous generations accomplished anything! They surely didn't have the same technology, the same and often ludicrous regulations, and they surely understood that certain things, though often sensitive, distressing, or slightly disgusting, must be done.

They fed and clothed themselves without WalMart or McDonald's, took care of business without official intervention, and managed to not only survive, but thrive! And so did the animals they relied upon for food, transportation, guardianship...

What have we become as a species if we can't... or aren't allowed... to handle something simple ourselves?! It boggles the mind...


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Vet school is costly, our experience is a bit over $300,000. The undergrad degree at a state school was $80,000 which we paid with savings and loans. My daughter graduates next Spring from veterinary school with $225,000 in student loans. I'm thankful she was able to get the loans as she is so very passionate about her career goals but fearful of the long term debt.

This post was edited by nancylee2 on Sat, Sep 14, 13 at 12:33


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"People who have visited us often remarked at the remoteness, the isolation of where we chose to live."

You act like you live in Alaska, not central Illinois.


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Teisa, you can get syringes, needles, & penicillin at the feed store.


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"As the "dumbing down" of America edges ever closer to an "Idiocracy" like state, it becomes more and more difficult to obtain the normal supplies a farmer or animal caretaker might need. The regulations becomes stiffer, and the nanny state takes over, as though we require protection from ourselves and our own lack of common sense... even though this is far from the truth.

.....

.... it becomes a bit frustrating to see how eagerly and willingly the general public hands over more and more of our freedom to do anything for ourselves."

Keep up that kind of talk and you're going to get kicked out of the "progressive" movement club.

Hay


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It seems here that some people view their pets as members of the family whereas others view them as a commodity. I lived for a short while in an extremely remote, sparsely populated area and people either brought their pets into town for treatment by the vet or the vet would come out to the home. It wasn't the relatively simple procedure that concerned them (most people are capable of giving shots or pulling a loose tooth), but the what if something went wrong or was unexpected.


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When you've lived in the city or suburbia your entire life, Frank, the boonies of Illinois can seem like Alaska. You'd certainly think so by reading some of what is written, anyway.

Progressive, Hay, doesn't mean I want or need the government or any authority to come hold my hand. I'm perfectly capable of living and accomplishing things without anyone standing over me, thank you very much.


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RE: cost of dog ( cat) medication

Jodi, it really is unfortunate that with the twists and turns you have faced you weren't able to parlay your talents and your husbands talents, including his technical shills into a profitable venture.


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I live in the "boonies" of Illinois as well.


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Jodi, it really is unfortunate that with the twists and turns you have faced you weren't able to parlay your talents and your husbands talents, including his technical shills into a profitable venture.

Chase I have read many post from Jodi and I could be wrong and Jodi correct me. I think she feels profit is what she has. Profit is all relative to the person. Her life may not be for many as she says, I can say definitely not for me. Roughing it for me is a Holiday Inn and it better not be more than one night because of an emergency.

I can honestly say if someone told me I had to live as she describes I would beg someone to put me out of my misery. It would be to painful.


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The idealization of 'the good old days' always brings out the cynic in me.

People in past times didn't always, or even usually, thrive;
more often than not, they had short lives, filled with poverty, pain, sickness, & hunger.

If you got hurt, you usually died;
if your appendix burst, you usually died.
If you got the flu, you usually died.

Diabetics didn't last long.

Women didn't last long, & they were absolutely at the mercy of their fathers & then their husbands.
& those husbands often went through 3 or so wives because they needed someone to raise the children.

Babies died in the thousands.

(quote from a pioneer woman's diary:
"The baby died. Mama always told me if I wanted to raise 4 I'd have to bear 8.")

Those self-reliant pioneers had very short life spans, as did their animals.

If I had to choose the present & the past, I'd choose the present every time.


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"People who have visited us often remarked at the remoteness, the isolation of where we chose to live."

Okey dokey then. Generally country = animals to care for = vets available. I think you do as much DIY as you can to save $. Me too; makes sense. But you're not a vet, right? It sounds like you go just a tad too far, and it's a concern to fellow animal lovers. I do realize you own the animals and as property of yours, you can do these things; it just doesn't set easy with me. Self reliance is a wonderful thing, and after the apocolypse, I say you'll be ready to treat your friends & family medically better than I would, what with all that practice. But in the here & now, not so much.


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I am rather inclined to agree that it is definitely worthwhile educating ourselves sufficiently to deal with as much as possible, as a potential fall-back scenario at the very least. There are situations where, what we lack in experience, we can compensate with a deeper level of care and commitment. Owning lurchers - the most wilful and disobedient dogs in the canine kingdom, we most certainly had to learn how to perform rudimentary procedures such as cleaning and stitching a surface wound and .many simple herbal remedies (we followed the truly excellent Juliette de Bairacli-Levy ) and had remarkable success in dealing with eczema, eye infections, digestive upsets.....using common substances such as garlic, elderflower, rue. We also managed to finagle a decent quid pro quo arrangement with a local vet - laying a patio in return for tumour removal. I guess I am saying that we do what we can, using whatever means are available to us and sometimes these things are definitely not what we might choose if our options had been broader.


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"teisa, you can get syringes, needles, and penicillin at the feed store." Am not sure about penicillin but you can also get syringes and needles online. Heck, the famous Farm and Fleet has an extensive web stie, where everything from syringes to diamond head horseshoe nails to post hole diggers to tractor parts are available to anyone, including people from the Upper East Side to La Jolla.

"I live in the "boonies" of Illinois as well." I don't know how you do it, Frank. My best personal "boonie" story is that of my father, who was born in 1905 in a farmhouse in the wilds of northern Saskatchewan, sans electricity and indoor plumbing; his mother bore and raised five children there. Fifty years later my parents, by then hard-core and passionate Chicagoans, built a tiny log cabin in a national forest in Upper Michigan, also without electricity and indoor plumbing, by design, where they spent 25 happy years, during summers and vacations, making do.

Every single person on earth is unique and lives a unique life. And, barring fatal injury or disease, just about everyone can adjust to almost any situation, whether that situation is by choice or forced. Literature is filled with stories of hard lives lived heartily, and sometimes accidentally. Jokes abound in the Syrian refugee camps in Jordan. The humor that emerged from the concentration camps is well-known to some in the Jewish community. A guy falls into a deep crevasse in Utah and amputates his own arm. We are survivors. That, in fact, is our specialty.


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Lily - Enjoy the book! It will have you wanting to hug your family and furbabies even more closely.

Esh - I am so sorry that you also had to take a cat through VAS. That's a miserable club that no one should have to join. You are right about titers; they can help with a decision. I haven't tried them but keep thinking about asking our vet about them. As to the changes in protocols and formulation of the vaccines: all good things, including alternating sites. Although I don't think I'd do a rabies shot in the shoulder, because cats manage rear leg amputations more easily than those of the front leg; at least that's what I've read.

However, the fact that new cases of VAS are still being reported to the online support group indicates that even with improvements, this disease is still occurring. Personally, I think that with some cats it doesn't matter what you do - they have a genetic propensity for the disease and, if stuck, will get it. But we continue to do our best to raise the odds.


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Jodik you question my motives i n asking for clarification when you make statements that I find difficult to comprehend. yet you feel no hesitation in being as scathing and sarcastic as you chose. why is that?
aNYONE on this board should be prepared to elucidate on staements they make.
You said you did dentistry and then said you had removed your dogs tooth. I asked you for the details as I found this difficult to imagine.

You tooth a tooth out with a bit of topical numbing without any xrays!
I find this to be irresponsible. You could not have been prepared for any possible complications.

I presume you own a car? Please do not imply that you live somewhere that modern conveniences cannot be used.
You have said many times that you and your husband are highly respected and successful dog breeders of decades standing .
I stand with others on this board who have commented that the surgery required in the removal of teeth is best conducted after the needed xrays and under a general anasthetic., by experienced vets. Who even knows , as you have said you have been so helpful to them in the past (going along to help on other cases) the vet might have even done you a deal.
If you had this co operative relationship with the vet (offering to help them) I wonder how you can then say your home is too remote for vets??

when you say things that I find to be outrageous I feel motivated to get behind your statement and delve deeper ...this is my motivation and ...as usual the questions I ask for clarification are met with sarcasm .


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We certainly could have, Chase... but our objective was never to exploit the dogs for our own monetary gain. The idea was, and always should be, to either maintain the genetic integrity of the breed, or to make it better by breeding out any existing problems or health issues.

We were a "mom and pop" type of operation, picking and choosing our clientele worldwide, and extremely choosy of our animal selection.

If a breeder is making big bank, it's a sure bet they're milling. Those kinds of places are the WalMarts of the dog world, selling to anyone with money in their wallet, or not being especially selective in breeding, buying a majority of misinformation peddled by major registries... and certainly not culling anything out of the gene pool.

When you're looking at every pup or dog as a $2500 piece of profit, it's very hard to do the right thing and dispose of it, regardless of the issues. You're not looking out for the animals or their best interests, and only seeing the money involved, the money you stand to lose.

It's much harder to develop a reputation of matching dogs with owners, maintaining healthy dogs, and keeping that reputation of producing a high quality of animal.

People will never understand the dedication it takes to walk that thin line between compassion and commitment to the breed of choice. For some unknown reason, and even though the nation's pet population has literally exploded, culling is seen as a dirty word... and people can't seem to grasp the idea that every single pup born is not a specimen worthy of reproduction, or even of being given away as pet quality.

And I can guarantee some of the responses to follow will show just one of the many reasons we chose to retire... as the breed gained in popularity following Disney's "Homeward Bound", our once multi-functional working dog turned into a status symbol and a peddler's commodity. The integrity of the overall genetic pool suffered, and continues to suffer exponentially.


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Jodi, my family vet is very vocal about her dislike of the same backyard breeders you talk about. She is also very down on the breeders of what she calls designer mutts - mixes of dogs that the backyard breeders charge big bucks for.

However, she knows all that can go wrong in pulling canine teeth from not getting all the tooth because it broke in the process of pulling it to a multitude of other things that can go wrong despite your best efforts. The chance that any dog no matter how well trained or restrained can pull away and end up hurting you or itself or both is huge. Maybe the gum isn't as numb as you thought it was and the dog jumps. Your grip on the pliers slips and you end up breaking more of the dog's teeth. Or whatever you are using to hold the dog's mouth open slips and you end up being badly bit simply not because the dog tried to bite you but because the resistance was removed and the dog's jaw snapped closed on your hand. The risks simply aren't worth the potential savings.


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I guess I just don't understand the premise that a veterinarian's hands are somehow more capable than mine because of a student loan and a diploma. The tools are the same... the knowledge is the same... the practices are exceedingly similar...

Are you saying that a vet can't slip or make a mistake?


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I would seriously question that the knowledge is the same.......and yes the degree matters big time.


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RE: cost of dog ( cat) medication

Edited to remove duplicate post

This post was edited by chase on Sun, Sep 15, 13 at 13:24


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The vet also has access to x-rays.


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The bottom line is that I'm not asking your permission to treat my own animals. We do what we do, and it is what it is.


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No problems with that...totally your call as long as you aren't cruel to your animals...nobody's business.

However, to represent yourself as knowledgeable as a trained vet is a bit much.

Having said that, it's too bad that you and / or your DH didn't take the risk, even if it meant loans, and become professional veterinarians. I think you have the underlying talent and love of animals that would have made you a great vet while providing a very good living in an area you love.......doesn't get much better.


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"The bottom line is that I'm not asking your permission to treat my own animals. We do what we do, and it is what it is."

You do, however, continually try to justify your acts of irresponsibility. You claim to have the knowledge of a veterinarian (which you don't). Vet school is supposed to be harder to get into than med school. It is an 8 year degree. You also do not have the equipment that a vet has access to in case of emergencies.


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Not only irresponsible Frank, but more than likely illegal. Performing even minor surgery on an animal without a license is viewed as animal abuse in many states.


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I think we are all assuming that the tooth jodi removed was one of the back teeth which would be impossible to remove without the dog being sedated. It's possible that it was a little front tooth and it was loose. Did anyone ask?

I removed one of my cat's front teeth. The tooth was loose and it was dangling at a right angle to all the other teeth. I didn't even have to try hard and it came right out just like a kid's baby tooth and the cat was none to worse for the wear.


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JZ......yes I know that at one point Jodi said she had only extracted one tooth in the past twenty years and perhaps it was a baby tooth.

That may be why some of us find it difficult to rationalize that with subsequent posts that indicate extensive knowledge even to the point of suggesting her knowledge was as extensive as a vet.


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If I'm not mistaken Jodi mentioned that she numbed the gum before pulling the tooth. That, to me, means that it was more than a baby tooth that was hanging by a thread.


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"I guess I just don't understand the premise that a veterinarian's hands are somehow more capable than mine because of a student loan and a diploma. The tools are the same... the knowledge is the same... the practices are exceedingly similar...

Are you saying that a vet can't slip or make a mistake? "

I am saying that a vet has much experience....even practice on cadavers.
its not the "student loan andthe diploma" rather what they have done to EARN that diploma!
Please bear in mind that , in the hnads of a trianed vet the dog would be properly anesthatised.

you are not asking our permission to treat your animals...but maybe you should have aske d someones permission?
I dont know if it is true as hostafrenzy says that even minor surgery performed without a license is illegal. I am however concerned with the welfare of the animal and the potential for disaster if fragments of the tooth had remained or any othe complications occurred.
the other aspect is how did you know if the jaw was numb enough?
When a human has a tooth extracted the dentiost can ask....but you cant ask your dog.

when you put these things out there on a public forum you should not be either surprised or offended when you are asked to further explain and justify your actions.

Dont want to be questioned? simple

dont lay claim to having the knowlege and expertise of a vet.


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BTW just as an aside I have no issue with country dwellers or others cleaning dogs teeth with a manual instrument giving shots treating cuts etc with stitches if they choose to....just performing other dental work


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Ignoring the usual lynching party that steps in any time the discussion turns to dogs...

Chase, my husband wanted to be a surgeon, a fact I've mentioned several times in various threads. Unfortunately, that's not the direction his life took. The next best thing was educating himself, and as we happen to often be in situations where we can practice some of that knowledge, we're happy to know we can more than adequately do so for the benefit of our animals.

Since when is HELPING an animal, eliminating suffering by treating it, called abuse, anyway? Some of you have some mighty strange ideas about country life, farming, and animal husbandry.

Exactly how many of you have assisted in large animal surgery, anyway? Anyone? Anyone?


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"The first thing you'd want to do is make certain there wasn't any infection involved, which would probably be rather painful, and would have to be treated before anything else was done."

And if the infection was systemic (requiring diagnosis by blood work) and not evident topically, you'd have a mess on your hands. Please consider this next time you play country vet.


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Jodi, I have been present during minor surgery on a large animal surgery. It was my own horse. It was not major surgery that required the horse to be totally out. Have you assisted in large animal surgery with the animal totally out?

How many teeth had you observed being extracted before you worked on your own dog? How many had you extracted while being watched by a vet? What would you have done if you didn't get all the tooth out? What would you have done if you had broken the animal's bone while trying to extract the tooth? Would you have known if you had broken or cracked a bone and created a much larger problem than a bad tooth? My family vet took a week long course on dental work using cadaver dogs and cats to learn what to do if any of those things happened.

The dogs are your possessions which you can treat however you would like. Personally, I think you were penny wise and pound foolish along with possibly risking the health of your dog.

I'm out of here.

This post was edited by jlhug on Mon, Sep 16, 13 at 6:26


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Whatever, paulines...

Actually, Jerzee, the dog was older but had severely loosened the tooth in an accident. The only way to fix the problem so the dog could eat and function normally was to remove it. It took no effort at all, and might have come out on its own... but we felt it best to remove it to avoid any complications.

There's a lot one must undertake on one's own in certain situations... something that is obvious lost on the few...


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"the usual lynching party" really?

to hold you to account for what you say I think.

I imagine that it is easier for you to feel aggrieved than to consider the points raised and respond to them

No matter , the important thing is that the questions have been asked and that it is noted that you choose not to respond.

Helping an animal , eliminating suffering is the objective...knowing your own limits in expertise experience and knowledge is what is important.

I will repeat my response to your words
""I guess I just don't understand the premise that a veterinarian's hands are somehow more capable than mine because of a student loan and a diploma. The tools are the same... the knowledge is the same... the practices are exceedingly similar...

Are you saying that a vet can't slip or make a mistake? "

I am saying that a vet has much experience....even practice on cadavers.
its not the "student loan and the diploma" rather what they have done to EARN that diploma!
Please bear in mind that , in the hands of a trained vet the dog would be properly anesthatised. " somehting you do not have the equipment knowledge or training to do..
Your words seem hollow Jodik , when you simplify a vets training and experience down to "a diploma and a student loan" this does you no credit in my opinion


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having trouble matching up these two comments Jodik

"We've only had to do one simple extraction in the last 20 years or so, and we used the same things a dentist would use"

and now you say "It took no effort at all, and might have come out on its own... "

then what did you use that took no effort?


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First, I would like to apologize to Mylab for the mess her thread became... though it was not unexpected.

Second, I'm sure glad this is just a message board, and some of what's been expressed doesn't translate into the only knowledge held by my neighbors or myself and my husband... I or my animals would most likely bleed to death in an accident scenario if this is what we had to rely on... good grief... talk about detachment from reality... and now, you can have the thread all to yourselves.


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are you actually suggesting that your dog would have bled to death on that occaision? that doesnt gell with what you just described.

otherwise . why would you mention that as it has no relevance to this conversation
just trying to make sense out of all the conflicting statments


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RE: cost of dog ( cat) medication

Served its purpose.

This post was edited by hostafrenzy on Tue, Sep 17, 13 at 5:37


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RE: cost of dog ( cat) medication

Youngquinn, Your statement "I imagine that it is easier for you to feel aggrieved than to consider the points raised and respond to them" is one of the most astute sentences I've ever read on this forum. in all seriousness, thank you for it.


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RE: cost of dog ( cat) medication

then what did you use that took no effort?

I would wager jodi used what I used. A piece of gauze. After all, how much is a cat going to let you do? I would think a dangling tooth is more painful and annoying than trying to remove it.


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RE: cost of dog ( cat) medication

We all, every one of us, has a wonderful ability to choose to use our own 'scroll on by' - aka SOB function.
With just a little practice I personally found its use to be easy as slicing pie, became an automatic personal function which kicks in after the resolve to use it: with just a little practice, after just the glance of the name located in lighted blue is noticed you might find that after a short time even natural curiosity about what was said is gone.
It truly is a WONDERFUL thing for the forum member who decides to use their ability to access the total control, choice on how to use it, why to use it and when to activate what I personally think of as my SOB function.

I dont always, automatically and continually use it but on the very, very, very few. My choice to use it always on them has nothing to do with if they always disagrees with me. For all of us, there might be one or two or more members who strike us as someone who simply stirs the pot while adding nothing to the conversation or is of such a personality that we bring out the worst in ourselves when we begin an exchange with them.
Or, people who continually make bigoted, hateful or even racists statements about another group of people.

Whatever it might be, whatever it might be that hits your personal ' ick' button is good enough reason for them to be on your SOB list.

Hint:
If the list has more than just a very few names, the problem might not be with them *LOL*

Truly not trying to lecture here, just spreading the wonderful way choosing to SOB can make this a better place to exchange ideas as it is something that has been wonderful for me.
Thanks to everyone who offered me their ideas and opinion as I feel I got a LOT out of this thread, some ideas Im going to more deeply research.


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RE: cost of dog ( cat) medication

"Whatever it might be, whatever it might be that hits your personal ' ick' button is good enough reason for them to be on your SOB list.

Hint:
If the list has more than just a very few names, the problem might not be with them *LOL* "

That's funny! And true...

"Thanks to everyone who offered me their ideas and opinion as I feel I got a LOT out of this thread, some ideas Im going to more deeply research."

My thanks as well. Jodi, I'm sorry you had a rough time. It's been a good discussion.


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RE: cost of dog ( cat) medication

Having just read through this entire thread, and seeing how things got off topic, I just want to add my own .02-cents regarding my experiences - staying ON topic as much as I can.

It's barely 2-months since the last of my beloved canines passed. It was 13-yrs ago this month that I adopted her from a rescue shelter; just under 2-yrs of age. Since the day of adoption I had her medical/shot needs covered under an affordable monthly plan through the Banfield Corp. (PetSmart). Subsequently, she had two other companions who preceded her in death... both were also covered under a comprehensive plan.

With that said, I will say that overall, I was quite satisfied with the cost of things over the long haul. It was much easier to shell out a nominal monthly fee vs having to cough up many hundreds of dollars twice a year for their comprehensive exams and shots.

The one bone of contention I had was the cost of meds several times. But lucky for us, they had employed one compassionate female vet who tipped us off a number of times about where to obtain canine arthritis pain medication for a fraction of what Banfield wanted to charge. Though it chapped my butt to be charged a $7.50 fee for the scrip,

It wasn't until recently, after discovering my baby was in pain, that I did some research and found out Tramadol was a viable pain med for her. BINGO...had plenty on hand due to SO having an Rx for it.

Years ago, her last companion - a full blooded German Shepherd who we'd also adopted, wound up with an injury on his foot from some decorative metal gardening fencing. We'd tried some home doctoring, but after a few days of limping, felt it was best to have him treated at the vet.

We got quite an education. First, the injury was close to the bone and had infection set into the bone, it would've meant amputation. As it stood, we only had a few choices...all of them quite costly. At that time we were strapped financially and had to take the 'cheapest' alternative, which was still over $500!

What that amount covered was an X-ray, sedation for cleaning the wound, and a $50 teeth cleaning fee (since he was already sedated), plus a high powered antibiotic...with NO guarantee since it was not the most expensive one they recommended.

Well, for his 2-week follow-up visit, he'd done remarkably well. But, the thing that chapped my arse was when we were told he needed his teeth cleaned! Excuse me?? WTH did we just pay for?? The "normal" charge under our plan was something like $250. I said, never again!

Fast forward. It was roughly 5-yrs ago that our baby girl chipped a tooth after biting into a metal fence. It wasn't infected and only temporarily interfered with chewing. Had it become a problem, we would've had it removed.
But for what they were going to charge (hugely discounted, no less) we played the waiting game. All worked out in the end. Until her recent death, that was the one and only "major" issue we had with her in 13-yrs time!

Now, getting back to the costly meds issue. When both of our babies were getting a little stiff and lame from arthritis, I had no problem in dealing with the expense of treating them both. However, after the MANY vaccination shots both were exposed to twice a year, I began to have concerns about all the unnatural stuff they were being injected with.

After doing a lot of research, I found a (natural) product that interested me. After reading the many reviews highly recommending it, decided to invest in it, vs getting another scrip.

It turned out to be an excellent choice! Within 3-days time of starting a multi-tab regimen with both our babies,
you could definitely tell it was having a positive effect. The vet clinic wasn't necessarily in agreement with using it, but Big Pharma be damned!

The only downside was our male LOVED the stuff, and our female wasn't as willing to take it....she HATED anything resembling a pill. Even crushing it, she was hard to fool. Peanut butter did the trick, though!

End of rant. Link provided for this GREAT product and company.
Note: I have no personal affiliation with this company. I'm just a very satisfied former customer.

Here is a link that might be useful: Joint Health Chewables


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RE: cost of dog ( cat) medication

Welcome, and thanks for contributing!

I am very conflicted about the otc joint medications out right now for humans and pets. I used to take all that stuff to try to delay the inevitable pain from worn joints due to age. My doctor told me a few years ago that he didnt take any at all as he was not convinced that it did any good and didnt like to take any unnecessary medication which he was not sure contained a true and real benefit, who knows the potential harm some of the 'natural' otc products may do when taken daily over several years?

I decided to take them anyway. Then, just a few days ago I heard a blurb on a morning news program that a large study was recently completed about these products and the results found these meds were not harmful nor helpful regarding to bone wear, repair or the perception that the patient felt any measurable relief, even after being on them over a span of several years time.

So, now Im torn, yet again, about giving any of this to ourselves or our pets. I suppose if I wait awhile longer another study will discover that these products can potentially cause or cure cancer.

It can be hard for the average lay person to decide what is best to do as so many studies can produce conflicting results - especially depending upon the companies behind the research funding.


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RE: cost of dog ( cat) medication

Does anyone know if Sam's Club has a pet med pharmacy program similar to Costco?


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RE: cost of dog ( cat) medication

For those not near a Costco or don't have a membership, Wal-Mart is now selling prescription dog meds at a hugely reduced rate compared to the Vet. I had the same thing happen to me - the vet charging $90 for a script that cost $8 at Walmart. Don't be afraid to demand the vet provide you with a written prescription to be filled elsewhere. You do not have to purchase the meds from them. If it is an unusual med - something other than antibiotics, anti-inflammatory, pain, or heart worm/flea - you may have no choice but to get it from the vet, esp if needed immediately, but otherwise call your local Walmart to see if they have the meds in stock.


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RE: cost of dog ( cat) medication

Do you need a prescription for heart worm meds? They are exorbitantly priced at my vet's, but I have to pay it.


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RE: cost of dog ( cat) medication

Lily,

I see heart worm meds for sale online when I buy my kitties flea drops. For what I buy, http://www.1800petmeds.com/ has the best price and has been very reliable.

Over a certain dollar amount the shipping is free, plus keep an eye out for a coupon before ordering. I find coupons in the Sunday paper and sometimes the weekly mailer that appears with groups of coupons tucked inside. You can use the coupon and still get the free shipping as long as the dollar amount in over __.

I also get coupons in my e-mail now that they have my address. Yeah, sort of spammy, but easy enough to delete between orders given the coupons run about $10 each and I do use them.

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.1800petmeds.com/


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RE: cost of dog ( cat) medication

lily, you can also just buy ivermectin for cows and pigs and give that to your dog instead. It's very accessible (any feed store, ebay, amazon etc) and economical.

.1 ml per 10 lbs of body weight.

Here is a link that might be useful: At 50 ml a bottle, you can do the math to see how cheap this can be


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TxanGoddess, I beg to differ... and please don't take this the wrong way, but... at that dosage, we're talking kidney failure and a range of other health issues.

Ivomectin (for cattle & swine) is a very powerful medicine, and requires very careful dosage!

Here's the proper breakdown and dose when using Ivomec as a heart worm preventative in canines:

Mix 1cc of Ivomec for cattle/swine with 9cc of sterile water. Mix well in a blood tube for storage... and store it in your refrigerator, in a compartment where light won't reach it. Mix it well before each use.

Dosing: 1cc of the mixture per 40lbs. of dog weight. Administer orally once per month as a heart worm preventative.

Warning: Have your dog tested for heart worm BEFORE using! Make certain your dog is clear of heart worm. Do not use on very young pups!

Lily, we've been using this product at this exact mixture and dosage since Ivomec was first introduced. This mixture, when used as directed above, is safe and proven effective. Since the 1980's, we've used this without any adverse effects.

Others who have misused this medication have experienced a variety of health issues, including sterility, kidney, liver or thyroid damage or failure, and even death.

Remember... Ivomec, and all wormers, are actually poisons designed to kill certain parasites. If used properly, it won't harm the dog. If used improperly, the results can be devastating. Please take care!


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Well, it was a Westhighland Terr. breeder that taught me the dosage jodik!

I don't take it the wrong way ... it's just that well, this was a well-respected, professional breeder too, so I didn't have any more or less reason to trust her than you.

That's not to say I don't believe you, and I am not implicating a pissing contest either. What I am saying is, I didn't just pull it out of my arse, though I certainly apologize to anyone here who was misled, I was acting on good faith from (what ought to have been) equally good authority.

So jodik, another question then, regarding testing before using ... is basic ivermectin not a "slow cure" for heartworms just like heartgard is?

I've never had my dogs tested. I've had them on pest preventative since I got them, and since I got one as a 12 week (maybe younger) puppy and have been giving the (wrong dose of) ivermectin since she was a year old, I assume that she would have no reason to have gotten heartworms yet.

But the other who I got as a 3 year old stray, I cannot help but believe would have to already be heartworm positive. We live in a pestilential climate famed for mosquitoes ... it almost seems like mathematical certainty that an uncared for animal for 3 years would have them.

I guess what I am trying to pinpoint is this: The vets that I know are generally willing to prescribe heartgard as a slow cure even to heartworm positive dogs, though they do explain some risks (thrombosis? best recall I can come up with).

What is the difference then in using ivermectin the same way, and ergo, what is the need for testing if one is already aware there is some risk involved?

TY in advance!


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I only say it with the utmost respect for you, and concern for the health and well being of the dogs, TxanGoddess... I know you are a lover of dogs, just as we are. :-)

You can always ask a veterinarian about proper dosing...

We didn't just pull our information out of our arses, either. :-) It came directly from a veterinarian, one who specialized in English Bulldogs from top to bottom... diseases, treatments, genetics, everything.. my husband can't recall his name at the moment... it was a quite a while ago... during the 1980's. But he will think of it, and I'll get back to you so you can look him up. People traveled from all over the country to seek his services regarding English Bulldogs.

Anyhoo...

The uncommon dose you describe is one that's been floating about the canine world for a long time... but unfortunately... and you can take me at my word or not... I only have everyone's best interest at heart... it's a toxic recipe. It began as a piece of misinformation used for ill intent, if I am correct... and somehow gained momentum.

We've heard a lot of breeders and dog people repeat the same thing, the same misinformation... and we've also been a part of some of those inner circles where it's been used by some with detrimental effects.

As an example of what's out there floating about within the dog realm, we've also heard and seen quite a few breeders and other dog people say that you can pop a dog with oxytocin after each birth to hurry along the process... but we know from massive amounts of research and breeding experience that such a thing can, and has, blown out many uteruses, placing many females out of breeding commission permanently. Not only would I never advocate for such a thing, I'd be the first one to offer corrections of the misinformation so other dogs are not completely compromised.

"So jodik, another question then, regarding testing before using ... is basic ivermectin not a "slow cure" for heartworms just like heartgard is?"

Neither one is a slow cure for heart worm. They are used, as I described Ivomec in my previous post, strictly as a preventative.

Ivomec is used as a cure by qualified veterinarians, along with the other proper chemicals and treatments involved. Treating a dog for heart worm without veterinarian support most often results in death. I believe there are other, newer chemicals in use, as well.

Using Ivomectin as a cure for present heart worms is a complicated process. I could never type it out here. It is only done with professional support. It is not a process that anyone could do at home.

1cc of Ivomec given straight is enough to treat 400 lbs. of dog as a heart worm preventative.

At 1cc per 10 lbs. of body weight, it's a severe overdose... at an increased dose like that, I would consult a veterinarian about future dosing.

We have never heard of Heartgard used as a treatment for a dog found to be positive for heart worms.

Where we're from, if a dog comes up positive for heart worm, and the case is not severe, certain treatments will be recommended. If the case is severe, it is usually recommended that the animal be put down. The chances of a dog making a full recovery from a severe case of heart worm is slim... though it can depend on the individual dog. Honestly, though, severe cases usually end up dying. Heart worm leaves holes in the heart, itself... segments of the worms will be coursing through the bloodstream, arteries and whatnot... without going into too much detail, it's a complicated thing that is best left to professionals.

We're all about preventing it in the first place. We don't mess with such complicated cures, and we do just about everything! :-)

I would absolutely recommend having the dog tested prior to placing it on a preventative. Otherwise you take a risk. Treating a dog that's positive for heart worm with a preventative could end up harming the dog.

If you are on top of your preventative care, the dog should be fine... as in your younger pup...

Ivomectin was not intended as a cure for all types of parasites. At the dose for a preventative, some parasite types can still thrive. There are different types of wormer for varying parasites. As an example, tapeworms won't respond to Ivomec, Panacur, or other kinds of wormers... one needs to treat that parasite with something like Droncit.

I guess the bottom line is... we're more old school and hands on than many of today's dog owners and breeders. We've studied extensively, and have a long combined term of experience under our belts. We use every preventative, every treatment, and every type of chemical or medication and tool with the utmost care. And we know when something is too risky or complicated for us to handle, ourselves... and we have no issue with bringing in a professional when the situation warrants.

Heart worm is a very serious parasite, if left unchecked. There's so much to know, so many details, that I couldn't possibly write it all out here. I've barely scratched the surface.

I do recommend that dogs are tested prior to beginning any preventative... especially if there's been a lapse.


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RE: cost of dog ( cat) medication

Oh, okay, well, that explains it jodik.

It looks like you overlooked a period in my earlier post and that has what led to this confusion.

You posted: "At 1cc per 10 lbs. of body weight, it's a severe overdose... at an increased dose like that, I would consult a veterinarian about future dosing. "

But what I had posted was not 1 cc. It was .1, or one-tenth of a cc, so it looks to me like you just misread.

This post was edited by TxanGoddess on Sat, Oct 12, 13 at 19:02


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There was a period before the 1??! Oh, my! My bad! I'm so sorry, TxanGoddess! :-)

My really nice, and relatively new monitor died a while back and I've been forced to use a small loaner screen. That tiny dot didn't even register!

Well, at least we fully understand the proper dosages of Ivomec, a very powerful worming agent! And I think through our discussion, we've managed to drill in the proper mixture amounts and dosages! It could be a good thing! ;-)

Did you know...

Long before Ivomec became so popular with the pet crowd, and it was being used mainly by farmers, it was manufactured in separate formulations for cattle and swine... using the cattle formula on dogs was fine. But one never wanted to mix up the two versions and use the swine formula on dogs by mistake! It was dangerous, at best!

Now, Ivomec comes in a variety of formulas and strengths, not to mention forms... there are pastes, liquids... the cattle and swine formulas have been combined into one mixture... and one can even obtain a premixed liquid for livestock that gets dripped right between their shoulder blades, eliminating the need to capture each animal and individually wrestle with them to get an oral dose inside!

It's been a lifesaver for treating the goats, I can tell you!

I'm so sorry... I did not see a period before that number 1. That was my mistake! I apologize!

On the other hand... there is some terrible misinformation floating about regarding this and other chemical preparations for dogs... so hopefully, anyone reading this will be able to come away with the proper information.


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