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So It's Sept. 11

Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
Wed, Sep 11, 13 at 16:15

Any thoughts? Have you been to the on-site memorial?


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: So It's Sept. 11

Deleted

This post was edited by leslie_gardener on Fri, Sep 13, 13 at 19:43


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

I have very little sympathy

And very little discretion as well.

Perhaps criticisms of foreign policies that affected 9/11 should be discussed on another day and in a less ... well... cold hearted... manner?


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Wed, Sep 11, 13 at 17:23

Such an early frost!


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

No matter what you political opinion may be, almost 3000 innocent people were killed that day and they deserve our respect and their families our sympathies.

I cannot imagine the heart of anyone that would have "very little sympathy" for the sorrow and heartache that day caused.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

  • Posted by mwheel East. WV-Z.6 (My Page) on
    Wed, Sep 11, 13 at 17:51

As a lurker, it always amazes me that posts which may elicit kind, thoughtful, even caring, messages usually have very few responses, i.e., this one, "So, It's Sept 11".

I understand this is the "Hot Topics" forum, but negativity is the name of the game.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

Can you remember where you were and what you were doing? I didn't even have the tv on, and my son called me from work and said turn the tv on quick, a plane just hit the World Trade Center. I did, just in time to see the second one hit, and there was no doubt what had happened. I cried. I cried off and on that entire day. I kept trying to tear myself away from the tv, but it was one of those things that you hoped wasn't really happening and kept watching to make it real. I'll never forget.


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I was working on an isolated job site, didn't know until we called someone who hadn't showed up to do some work. Called from the client's house phone, those days were pre-cellular for us.


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I had the TV on when the news first broke. Watched in stunned disbelief. It was only a couple of days later when the names started appearing that I got a call telling me of two former working companions on the plane flown into the Pentagon. My cousin in Scarsdale, NY, went to more than 60 memorial services. How does one bear it even being counted among the living!


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I was at home doing housework with the tv on CNN, if I remember correctly. I saw the first report of the attack on the first trade center building, and I believe I saw the second attack live. :(

I think I'm getting old, because it seems like it happened just four or five years ago.


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Got up cried a little posted a little. Edd & I were a little unnerved by some sirens racing on 6th Avenue finally we both admitted it sort of sounded like that day.
Took this 3 weeks ago from Washington Square Park the new Trade Center I live 5 blocks further south closer to it/ So that was my view on 9/11.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

No, I've never been to any of the tragedy sites. Well, to the Pentagon, but not since 911. I was at work, and like Mrs, tuned in just in time to see the 2nd plane hit. It felt surreal to me; much like watching Challenger blow up.

Later, watching the jumpers at the Towers, I remember the horror and thinking about the families who would never see their loved ones again. So very sad.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

I was at the World Trade Center site last Fri and stopped to visit each of my 3 names, 2 on one fountain and 1 on the other. It was my 3rd visit and it never gets easier.

On Monday evening, we stood facing south at the Flatiron Building and admired the 2 light beams pointing to the sky.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

We were driving through Oklahoma City at the time. DBF's dad called and told us about it. He said it would be WWIII. I think he was right.

We stopped at a truck stop somewhere in Texas and watched CNN as they replayed the plane hitting the second tower.

I remember how they jacked up the fuel prices that day. Oil companies, whatabuncha . . .

I've always had respect and awe for cops and firemen. It grew huge after 9/11.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

Got up cried a little
((Labrea))

Same here Joe. Again the sadness was palatable as we walked downtown to the memorial even 12 years later. We watched as my bil read some of the names and then we went to the Fire Dept. memorial to honor a friend who died that day and to say a prayer for Father Mychal and then walked up the High Line with some of our other friends who lost loved ones and we all tried to enjoy the summer day even though it was very hot. We remembered how remarkable the people of this city were during the hours and days after and all the people that came here from other places to help. Things that anyone that was here will never forget.

Later tonight we will all gather on our balcony where we can see the beams of light one last time before they come down again tomorrow. There is something soothing about them and imo an apt tribute. Also remembered those who died in Shanksville and DC.

Edited to add the photo which also honors some unsung heroes, our best friends.

This post was edited by epiphyticlvr on Wed, Sep 11, 13 at 19:42


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

Yes, Leslie, and when Allende was assassinated, the result was 60,000 dead. But that does not ameliorate the horror of the NYC disaster.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

I miss Father Mychal so much I sat at coffee with him more times than I can think about for years.

Here is a link that might be useful: Fr Mychal


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((Hugs again to you Joe))

DH feels the very same way. He keeps a photo taken about 15 years ago of them both on his desk.

He was a very special human being and his death was a great loss to the many that loved him, and there were many. That picture always brings me to tears.
.


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I was at work and got the call that a plane had hit the towers. I remember the top news stories on Yahoo were frozen for hours. They did not get updated ... I don't know if it was a technical issue or people in charge of that were just unsure of what to say. But it made it all that more surreal.

Eventually we all gathered in the lobby to watch the TV.

Bless them all and may they rest in peace, never forgotten.


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I miss Father Mychal so much I sat at coffee with him more times than I can think about for years.

Here is a link that might be useful: Fr Mychal


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On my way into town I pass a shrine dedicated to someone who had an accident there several years ago. Someone had put up a cross and continues to decorate the site even after so many years. I see it as celebrating this persons death and not their life. I suppose the person gets some sort of comfort from the shrine but I don't think it is healthy-my opinion. I have the same attitude about 9/11. I don't believe it in anyway diminishes those who died that I refuse to dedicate a day of my year to terrorists. I don't believe anyone should dedicate a day of their year to terrorists and I can assure you that the people who inspired the attack take special comfort from our continued pain and suffering. In retaliation as a country we have committed atrocities that make the deaths at the Pentagon(almost always forgotten) and in New York and the airplane that crashed pale by comparison. There ought to have been enough blood to sooth our pain by now but I know it isn't, because it cant be. I wish we were a better people than we are. I wish we would morn for the innocents we have taken in pointless revenge.


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I was home when my husband called me from work and told me to turn the TV on. He was on his way to work when his radio station was interrupted by the announcement of the plane hitting the first tower.

One of my SIL's, who is from Rockaway Beach, NY, lost one of her cousins. She and my brother had just spent considerable time with him and his family (and other family members) a couple weeks before when they had gone to NY on vacation to visit her family. When they couldn't get ahold of one of her brothers they were afraid that they had lost him too, as he worked in what he called "in the shadow of the towers". Thankfully he was ok. It was one of the days that he worked from home so he wasn't anywhere near the devastation.

Jenna


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I thought about Victor Jara's hands as I listened to the BBC interview his wife.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

What a very cruel thing to say, Leslie.

I had a head cold so went back to bed for a few minutes, and something made me get up and go downstairs where I had five messages on the answering machine. My heart skipped a beat thinking someone in my family was in an accident. As I went to the machine the phone rang ,and it was son in law saying turn on your TV. I turned the kitchen one on and watched as the plane hit the second tower. It was just disbelief. I knew what had happened in a split second, but it still seemed like a movie. Then there were the jumping bodies which thankfully they stopped showing. I remember thinking something this horrific can't happen on this absolutely gorgeous day with the brightest blue sky. I was glued to the TV watching the crowds and then the sickening falling of the buildings. The brave passengers on the plane over PA are such heroes, because you know the terrorists were aiming for the white house or capitol.

I went to the site a few years ago , and we wanted to go back this year but ran out of time. Next year for sure.


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It was a tragedy. Now let's move on. I'm not insensitive to the fact that many families had their lives forever changed 12 years ago, and I am sorry for what happened to them and to the loved ones they lost.

However, every year we go into this ritualistic, superficial public mourning. And each time we do that we let terrorists know that we have become a nation of scared people who have forgotten their roots and are so cowed by that horrible act that we can't move on. Other Western countries have endured repeated terrorist attacks on their soil, and they get on with their lives rather than curling into a fetal position. We have given up massive amounts of our civil liberties and spent untold billions on a fool's errand trying to prevent any American from ever being killed again in a terrorist attack. Meanwhile, we seem to be ok with about 30,000 people dying in car accidents in the U.S. each year and another 30,000 dying from gun violence. But, hey, we're doing it to ourselves. We also seem to have no will to do anything about the repeated shooting massacres at our schools by homegrown crazies and domestic terrorists. But I'm sure that all hell would rain down from our politicians if one foreigner blows up someone at a shopping mall.

Ben Franklin: "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

This post was edited by kudzu9 on Thu, Sep 12, 13 at 2:55


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I'm not insensitive to the losses either, but I think Kudzu has a bit of a point...


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Where are the words about WHY? These things don't 'just happen'.

Especially with the current Syrian issues, we need to remember why American *civilians* were attacked. Do we want more tragedy here...or there? The rest of the world will be happy for us to paint bulls-eyes on only our own backs.


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As for moving on, think of how long its taken to 'get over' Pearl Harbor.

When the people directly involved have finally passed on.

/RIP


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Exactly what I was thinking. December 7th 1941 is a day that every year is memorized. We didn't "forget" that day, and it happened 72 years ago. This was an equally horrifying day, probably more so. I don't think we should forget. I think we should honor the memory of all the innocents and their rescuers. .


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I assure you for the folks in my neighborhood it's not superficial it's getting over it & it will take as long as it takes.

A perfect blue sky day last week people felt odd about saying "I keep staring at every jet passing over" I heard that from more people in my neighborhood.
It's in there because the follow up was almost always "oh yeah it's next week isn't it"
Rituals are often our way of dealing with impotent rage unremitting anger & sorrow.
Some people have other defenses the "sure I feel something but get over it already " or worse that thing from Canada.
It's an inconvenience to some that people grieve, commemorate, honor, have a moment of silence whatever.

Take the worst or happiest moment of your life multiply it by a couple of months waiting for the next shoe to drop and an unrelenting smell of charred city wires people.

Now get over it!


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I am finally able to work again on 9/11 after many years of not being able to do so. It is too hard to stay focused. I'll never get over it, never. I don't think I can ever ever ever go to the memorial site. Never. It'd be too hard. I loveyou New Yorkers! It's difficult enough being American and slogging through the day, I can't imagine being in your shoes. The only thing I really posted about it yesterday was on Kitchen Table. It's about the Ground Zero bible. I try to learn one new thing each year. Some new nuance. It's all I can handle, like an open wound.

mwheel, I spent a lot of time thinking about Mary yesterday. I wondered how she is handling "things" with no Marda. I miss Marda so so much, and they were really close. I kept imagining I saw her in the crowds crossing the bridge in all those scenes of 102 minutes last night. I don't know what she looks like, but I sure saw a lot of "Marys" last night. I know you know who I'm talking about (Ukranian eggs, skeins of yarn, tales beautifully written Mary).


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I would love it if we took our 9/11 moments and could make the connection between what we feel and what the people that we have taken our revenge on feel. Terrorists took around 3000 lives here-in an attempt to make us make that connection. We have taken in excess of 100,000 more or less in return. They feel the same endless sense of loss. They have the same pain. They will never forget either. They are on the whole just as innocent of any wrong doing as anyone in those buildings or in the airplanes-millions of them. We lost buildings and we have destroyed countries. We keep doing it-every drone strike has its unintended victims. When is enough enough?


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Yes, patriciae, who ARE 'the terrorists'? There's plenty of blame to go around. It's NOT LIKE Pearl Harbor, lilly.


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I too think that perhaps, remembering for remembrance sake is not the best use of a terribly tragic day in our history.

I can't say it better than Yehuda Berg:

"On a clear September morning 12 years ago, 19 terrorists changed our world. This tragic day is forever etched in our hearts and minds as a day we suffered great loss of life. But how has this day changed the way we interact with one another? Has it changed the way we see the world? What lessons have we learned?

In the weeks following the attacks, I remember being in NYC and how family-like the atmosphere was. For a few weeks we said hello to strangers on the street, we were willing to put other people’s needs first, and we were unified. However, as the moment, days and years have passed, our unity did not last.

When tragic events transpire, we become what I call “spiritually reactive.” We seek answers from a higher power and ways to transform ourselves. These events of destruction give us an opportunity to create something new and better, but our spiritual connection often only touches the surface and does not connect internally or mindfully. It’s like a doctor who gives you a diagnosis and tells you to change your eating habits and lifestyle. You can change what you do externally, but to be successful, you have to change internally.

The kabbalists teach that we are really only given two options in life: To become spiritually reactive, or spiritually proactive. We don’t need to wait for disaster to strike to become more connected to each other, more tolerant of our differences, or more caring for the person standing next to us.

Looking at the world 12 years later, our lack of human dignity is prevalent. With violence continuing to erupt in locations that seem so distant, we find it hard to remember that our individual lives affect change on global scale.

As my mother Karen Berg says, “I may only be one person, but I can change me. And if a million ‘me’s’ change, then together we can change the world.”

The truth is, it doesn’t even take a million.

If it took only 19 people to do so much damage, imagine just how much good 19 people could do."


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Asking to swap the personal felt for the intellectual is rather insulting to someone experiencing the personal.
Aside from all that Mrs Lincoln how was the show?


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TexanGoddess , beautifully stated!

I remember the Oklahoma bombing yearly memorials, how I wished that instead of it being a boon to those who figured out how to make a buck off of the backs of those who personally suffered and lost so much along with the grief the country endured (one of our own did this??) that instead if the people of this country could have taken the reins of greed away and establish a charity on behalf on all those injured or dead - a charity that would accomplish something wonderful, and then use the media every year for the purpose of raising funds for the charity instead of for media moguls and those stockholders who directly benefit from these yearly memorials.

I always thought a small burn center which treated and completely rehabilitated seriously burned patients with a burn research unit attached, operated from the charity drives - that would have been something people could point to and say, "This is the good that came from that tragedy. We are that kind of people." It would be a result of charitable donations which could be seen, even touched and render stories of physical healing from equally horrific human suffering.

Or, a small mental health research center to learn how to treat the Timothys of this sad world so that less will suffer at their hands.

I wish the same thing could take place for this horrific event. People will open their wallets when they can find a cause that touches them directly and I believe this event touched a nation of people, especially if they can see direct results from the dollars donated - brick and mortar with interviews of personal stories of treatment and recovery.

So much good could come from such an awful day in our history.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

labrea, that wasn't quite what I intended, I am sorry if I hurt your feelings or upset you.

To be a little more clear, I don't think anyone who saw 9/11 happen from afar (to our country and our countrymen yes, and with horror and sadness and fear of course, but still from afar) should be trying to tell any of the people who were directly affected by the attacks how to feel in any manner, be it "Never Forget" (as if you all have a choice in that anyway!) or any other way of feeling.

I did not mean to overstep, and had intended my post to be more general towards those who aren't as intimately connected towards the events of 9/11 but still seek some way to memorialize the day.

Apologies again. Peace


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david52-
Actually I think we moved on regarding Pearl Harbor many years ago. That doesn't mean we forget what happened to our country or the people who died, anymore than we need to forget those who died in 9/11. It's just that we treat Pearl Harbor with dignity, rather than going through the annual wailing, self-flagellation, and navel-gazing that we still do with 9/11. And our response to Pearl Harbor was different: we faced an enemy and defeated that enemy in 4 years. After WWII, we were an optimistic, positive, confident country. Now we are afraid of our own shadow, invading countries that don't pose a clear threat to us. I don't have a problem with respectfully remembering those who died in 9/11. I just have a problem with the ritualistic and not-very helpful circus that happens once a year in regard to it. If we want to keep reinforcing with terrorists how easily we are demoralized and intimidated, let's just keep doing this.


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Keep on doing what? Coming together and memorializing both the innocent and the hero? Showing the terrorists that they did not rip this country apart, but brought it together to stand against what they did? We were all wounded, those closer to the impact more so than those of us from further away. But we all have children, family, and it could have been any of us. We will never forget, we should never forget. There is no timetable for grief, no perfect timing for wounds to heal. It will take as long as it takes.


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Texan I wasn't responding to you I was responding to Patricia!
I'm not feeling insulted by any of it I'm having feelings which is different!
Having feelings is something I've spent a lot of time work & money to experience & be with them. Intellectuslization is part of my preferred defense structure. Rather than feel my first response is to research I've done this since childhood! End result unfelt feelings produce reaction formations , headaches back spasms a whole assortment of psychosomatic symptoms.
Walk out the door. There's mrs so & so she lost her son pass the Cheese shop there summer help guy just got his first job at Cantor Fitzgerald they lost mos their staff next block pass the firehouse they lost 10 of their fireman pass at least 3 or 4 people from the neighborhood on average who lost someone in the center dont look righ while walking across Houston street because the new center is there. Every step is a potential trigger sometimes just looking at bare walls I can see all the posters of the missing. Edd has this my friend Rhoma has this we internalize it we mutter names of people gone. We're glad one of our guilt ridden friends played hookey from work & half he co workers died so lots of daily triggers an opportunities to get dragged out of the present into the past!

Can I make an intellectual case for causality ..... No never!
Can I intellectualize about US policy & the now accepted oh they'll blow up a bus a train a plane. I can but only to say the world is screwed!
I can not do it on the anniversary of this date & will more the likely resent any & all casual drive by comments as the are for
Me & a few folks I know anger provoking not rage or worse cool intellectual discussion anger the sadness is more overwhelming than anything!


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First, no ones feelings are more valid than another's. It doesn't matter if you were IN the WTC when the planes hit, to me, your feelings are no more important than the person who watched it on television 3,000 miles away.

Everyone deals with it and grieves in their own way. I am truly sorry for anyone who is/was affected by that day. It was AWFUL, truly horrendous. Mind-boggling and extreme.

I remember exactly where I was on that day. I was booked on one of the flights that went down, but had a change of plans and went out, same flight, the morning before. I will never, ever forget the screaming of my father as his truck flew into my yard sideways and he took the stairs in one bound, pounding on my door the next morning, knowing I was dead but refusing to believe it. Ever.

I was pregnant. I was terrified. September 11 changed my life in ways - that when I look back I'm frightened by the changes that were made out of fear.

I had a lot of sympathy for those who were directly in the line of fire. And a lot of guilt.

Most of that is gone. Now the horrors that fill my head are of the tens of thousands we have brutally killed in the name of revenge. The generation who grew up and can't get jobs because our economy is in the tank because we spent all our money killing other people.

September 11 is not Pearl Harbor. We as a nation had a choice in how we reacted and in my opinion we failed miserably. We fought like children over the memorial. We spent our time and money foolishly.

In my opinion, Bin Laden won. We are a broke, crippled country right now. We have the blood of so many innocents on our hands, far more than Bin Laden's attack on our soil. We are not safer, we are not happier, we are not more free. He won.

Now, we allow our corporations to go to other countries and harm their citizens... with cigarettes, with pesticides, with giving guns to fund wars.

September 11 is an incredibly sad day. And I am truly sorry for anyone who lived front and center, or lost friends and family. But my sympathy for them is no more than my sympathy for someone who lost a family member to any other freak occurrence.

I agree with Patricia, Chisue, Kudzu... this is not something to "get over" but really a deeper issue, one that all Americans should investigate. We took our horrific event and spread the horror to our neighbors. I do not understand those who are not ashamed of our actions. On an individual level, it's tragic. Those individuals who gave their lives without even knowing... tragic.

But no more so than anyone else's personal tragedy. Just more public.

On a collective level: Shame. Shame on our government who were colluding with terrorists. Shame on our country for allowing our representatives to do so, because we value our material items more than we value the lives of those in other countries. Shame on us for imprisoning people without trial, torturing people, dehumanizing people in our camps without equality. Just look to Kurnaz, whose file was documented six months after he arrived to say he was not a threat and should be let go... three and a half years later he was still being tortured.

Now tell me that one person's pain is greater than another's. That because a person was IN NYC or had a family member die on that day, that their pain is more valid. I feel badly for those people, but I feel worse for those who were affected after, because at least the ones on 9/11 got to die heroes, maintained their dignity and are memorialized.

Shame. Shame on US (A).


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This gets like kindergarten!


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There's a little thing called PTSD I'd suggest silver u don't get it from watching cnn


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mrskjun-
The terrorists did rip apart this country, and the superficial parts of our annual, self-pity display fueled by the media circus across the political spectrum don't show the terrorists that we have been brought "together to stand against what they did." It shows them that they figured out how to demoralize us, and we confirm it to them each year. I'm not disrespecting the memory of those who died in 9/11, but I am troubled that we are stuck in a rut and somehow seem to think that if we keep talking about the horror we still feel, and where we each were that day, and our lofty feelings of patriotism, it's a poor substitute for healing and moving forward.


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I agree with mrsk, a first I believe ... lol. We honor the memory of those innocents who were killed and the brave responders who died. We show the rest of the world we are stronger and more united ,and you will never take us down. Look at our new tower which is the tallest building in America. In your face.

The residents of the city and the families suffer more than the rest of us. I knew no one who died, but I still grieve for these unknowns.

We have a day of service every anniversary to do good on the day where evil reigned.

This in no way says I agree with our starting an unnecessary war in a country which had nothing to do with 911. I know we cause a great deal of pain thru out parts of the world too.


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I saw a car crash on TV so I know how it feels to be in a car crash yep see a psychiatrist go on Paxil for the PTSD & anxiety & get a chest x ray every year because of all the crap I inhaled & everyone in lower manhattan inhaled give me a freaking break!


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Labrea, it's awful. I do not know what you went through. Do you know what I went through? Can you understand what it feels like to know it could have been, should have been you on the plane? Can you understand being pregnant and single and terrified? Can you understand being so absolutely frightened that you make all sorts of bad decisions, one after another, that affect you for the rest of your life, that you are still dealing with today?

Can you understand NOT being able to go on antidepressants because you're pregnant, and being absolutely depressed and freaking out that somehow you've managed to harm your baby for nine months? Can you imagine the fear of bringing a baby into this world when everything seems to be crumbling and we may go to war at any moment?

It truly is terrible that you have to endure that. I am very sorry for your experience. But I cannot say that yours is worse than anyone else's!! How can you? Is your PTSD of actually being there for 9-11 worse than my PTSD, where I can't hear a helicopter without freaking out?

This is what gets me, that those who were in NYC somehow have a bigger license for their pain than anyone else in this nation or elsewhere in the world. If anything, you ALSO got surrounded by more love and sympathy and good energy and camaraderie and outlets for healing than ANYONE ELSE. You have an outlet to go and mourn and anyone would say "oh, poor thing". Not everyone has that.

How can you compare? You give me a break!


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I keep thinking about this and the responses from A to Z to the downright dismissive. The farther we get away from tragedy the closer we want a connection. I've heard it called crisis envy.

Everyone who ever even dreamed of running the Boston Marathon probably says "it could have been me!" But it wasn't. The four 9/11 flights, by all later shoulda, woulda, coulda accounts, were seemingly the most overbooked flights in the history of aviation. In those instances people can say 'it could have been me". But it wasn't.

Now I sound dismissive. I don't mean to be. But unlike the nearly 3000 who perished in moments of astonishment and terror, I did not cheat death. It would be callous to say it's not my tragedy - it is my tragedy but by degrees of distance and separation.


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I can separate what happened on 9/11 and how I feel about it and how it should be remembered and memorialized from how I feel that 1) the military industrial complex and the oil companies pushed us into a war with Iraq that had nothing, NOTHING what so ever to do with 9/11 and not even with Muslim terrorists nor WMD and 2) the security pukes finally got their way and took away a lot of our civil liberties--with their right to snoop through our phone calls, internet use and email without warrents, detain U.S. citizens without charges or access to due process and lots of other liberties. Most of their so-called precautions have just cost millions if not billions of dollars and do little if any good. Just look at the amount of money TSA has wasted on technology that doesn't work. But boy is alphabet soup-DHS, NSA, FBI, CIA etc, drunk with power.

I work in Washington DC and I never thought I would have guards armed with automatic weapons stopping and boarding buses on Constitution Ave. requiring people to show ids.

Also I live just outside DC in a neighborhood that includes Walter Reed Research Annex. The DC public transit bus route from the Silver Spring Metro Station to my house goes through the Walter Reed Annex. Once the bus goes through the gate, armed military guards stop the bus and demand to see id from all riders. I had my drivers license with me. But why should I have had to show it to take the public bus to my house. I wasn't getting off in the research center. Why didn't the guard only check people getting off the bus, instead of making everyone show id. I admit, given my 60s protest background, I'm ashamed I didn't make a standard on principle. I forsee a time in the not to distant future when the guard on the bus or the train will be saying, "papers, please."


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You're right Duluth, I have envy. So that's what this feeling is called!

You don't have to believe me. I was taking my first trip ever to DC and the big city the week before. Small town girl, big city. Longest airplane ride of my life.

Truth is that one person will never know how things affect another. Some people can be confronted with an event and process it without issue. Others will have flashbacks and be incapacitated. Comparing one person's pain to another is senseless.

Signed, the person sitting three deep on the flight everyone should have been on.


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silver, I can't imagine what that feeling must be like. Alone, pregnant, and simply by quirk of fate changing flights. Of course I don't really believe in quirks of fate, so I hope you have found a wonderful purpose in your life that day made possible.


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Thanks Mrs.

I have an 11 year old daughter. Purpose enough :)


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

Exactly my thought when I read MrsK.... daughter! So yes, a very good purpose. (((Silver and her daughter)))


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

I have had anxiety issues off and on for a long time, and I can imagine if I lived in Manhattan that terrible day, I'd be having PTSD in a major way. Planes silhouetted on a crystal blue sky, helicopters , sirens, and especially playbacks on TV at anniversaries. I sympathize with you all.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

Finished with it!


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

This gets like kindergarten!
There's a little thing called PTSD I'd suggest silver u don't get it from watching cnn

Thank you Labrea!

I wasn't going to respond but now I have to.

I will never, ever forget the screaming of my father as his truck flew into my yard sideways and he took the stairs in one bound, pounding on my door the next morning, knowing I was dead but refusing to believe it. Ever.

Knowing you were dead? You weren’t. Thankfully what he thought wasn't reality. Lucky you and lucky him. He was able to experience something that tens of thousands of people wish they could, the relief in finding out that you were fine. I wish my MIL and my family and my friends families could have had the same happy ending. Unfortunately they don't, many still don't even have the remains of their loved ones to bury.

Do you know what I went through? Can you understand what it feels like to know it could have been, should have been you on the plane? Can you understand being pregnant and single and terrified?
Can you understand NOT being able to go on antidepressants because you're pregnant, and being absolutely depressed and freaking out that somehow you've managed to harm your baby for nine months? Can you imagine the fear of bringing a baby into this world when everything seems to be crumbling and we may go to war at any moment?

How can you compare? You give me a break!

No, you give me a break. Your pain is real to you as were your fears and not to be diminished but you are not the only one who dealt with much and is still dealing with it. We all deal with it differently some better than others.

I have a friend who, like you, was scheduled to be on one of the flights, the flight that went down in Shanksville who had to cancel. He has gone on relatively unscathed although thankful. My other friend is the husband of one of the stewardesses on that same flight. He waited his whole life to meet the woman of his dreams and married relatively late in life. They had a few years together before she was taken. He has never been the same.

I am truly sorry for your pain, it was and is awful. I can empathize with you but you seem to be unable or incapable of doing the same for others or understanding the difference between your scenario and what we went through stuck on this island with no place to go. The oppressive and depressive feeling that permated the air here was palatable and lasted for months and was inescapable, even inside one's home.

Like you I was pregnant at the time with my son and on my way to 1 Liberty, directly across the street from the WTC on that day for a meeting. Had I not decided to walk, because it was such a beautiful day, intead of taking the subway I would have been there excactly where and when the towers collapsed. So yes, I know firsthand what it feels like to have possibly cheated death and was lucky I made the decision I did.

Like you I went through turmoil because of this, my decisions and what I was living through while carrying a child. Can you imagine worrying that what you are breathing for months may be poisoning you and your baby or breathing carcinogens and worrying that perhaps you won't see your child grow up? Like you I spent a lot of time worrying that the stress from this was detrimentally affecting the baby. I couldn’t take anti-depressants either and I was living in h@ll. In the first hours and days I was simulaneously searching for clues regarding the whereabouts of my BIL and friends who were missing. Worrying about my MIL and his siblings and at the same time concerned we were going to be attacked again and if so how I was going to get off this island because we didn’t have any way to since everything was closed and the first 24 hours we were trapped. My head was spinning, My reality was that no matter where I was I was surrounded by death and disaster. There were threats everywhere including countless bomb scares in buildings for days after. Not a healthy environment for incubating a child.

Do you have any idea what it was like to walk out of your door surrounded by mayhem and fear with no where to run and then subsequently being confronted by thousands of people crying, wandering this city looking for the missing? Having strangers come up to you asking you for help? Seeing signs everywhere asking for information about peoples loved ones and their pictures and internalizing that so many were going through so much like you. I wasn’t able to turn this off like those who watched it on TV. You were able to go to the grocery store and even for a minute, forget. We didn't have that luxury. There was no escaping it, anywhere.

Many of my neighbors and friends weren’t able to comfort me because they were going through the same. I watched daily, for almost a year, bringing the remains of people to the morgue and to the temporary command center which was set up across the street from my house.

Unlike Labrea, your community wasn’t covered in soot and debris of who knows what. You didn't have the sights and sounds of emergency crews ringing through your ears at all hours or the stench of burning rubber and bodies permeating everything including closed windows and getting stuck in your clothes and hair. Unlike Labrea you didn't have to witness the people running north covered in white soot crying.

You didn't have to endure the continunous phone calls hearing that those you knew and loved were missing and wondered if it was ever going to end and frightened every time the phone rang but you had to answer in case it was information about your loved one. You didn't then spent weeks going to memorials and funerals. Like you, the sound of a plane overhead made me shudder and a beautiful day which used to bring me joy, did too. Even today the sirens from fire engines evoke stirrings as does the smell of burning rubber, and yes, clear blue skies. But you were luckier than many since you were able to escape, if not from your mind, your environment. Labrea, couldn’t and neither could I.

What I don’t understand is why those who have “no sympathy” or are tired of New Yorkers commemorating this tragedy don’t just shut off their TV’s, ignore the media and “get on with their lives” and let those of us who were directly affected do what we want to do without judgment or criticism or even worse, guilt. No one is forcing anyone to do anything including some NY’ers who disregard it. In time it will lessen, and eventually as survivors and families die off, it will be another chapter in the history books but right now you have people who are alive that lived it and remember it like it was yesterday and still are feeling the effects, something that those who weren’t here can’t imagine even though they think they can.

Although I agree that everyone’s pain is equal I don’t expect anyone who wasn’t directly affected to understand or feel what we do and I don’t begrudge anyone who doesn’t want to think about it or wants to equate their pain to those who directly lost their family and friends. They are entitled to believe that although I don’t agree. Everyone’s feelings deserve validation INCLUDING THOSE WHO WERE DIRECTLY AFFECTED AND LOST LOVED ONES OR WHO ARE STILL SUFFERING ILL EFFECTS BECAUSE OF IT, something that those who watched on TV are not.

But the fact is that some of us can’t shut off our feelings when there is a chair that is empty at our table or our neighbors, friends, colleagues,… on holidays or that we can’t just pick up a phone to a loved one or a child doesn’t have a parent.

As Joe stated we encounter this tragedy every day, unlike most people in other areas around the country who have to endure it once a year, and also has he stated, the fact that even something so benign as the sight of a crystal clear blue sky evokes memories.

There are tens of thousands of people in this area and other parts of the country who lost close friends, relatives, colleagues and countless more who survived and we are all not mourning and remembering our loved ones but we are also expressing our gratitude to those who came to help and want to honor them so why begrudge it or deny them that when you have other choices? Just pretend it didn’t happen. You are lucky, you have a choice.

And, fyi there are many of us who were directly affected and did/do not support the killing of other innocents to avenge those who were murdered, nor support the policies that may have led to this event or subsquent ones. Trying to make us feel guilty is way out of bounds. Some of us are able to compartmentalize and understand all. But it doesn’t mean that because of that we should ignore our personal pain because you think we should.

For New Yorkers 9/11 was more than a day, more than a month, it went on for a very long time and for some it is still is, so while others who weren’t here were able to shut off their tv’s and turn it off we weren’t. There are still many who are living with the effects of that day, physically and mentally. We couldn’t walk through this city without seeing or smelling death for months not to mention those who were waiting, and some still are, for the remains of their loved ones and remember dusting the soot off of our furniture that looked different wondering if we were cleaning the ashes of someone’s loved one. I know someone who was notified only a month ago that they identified a tiny bone of their son, the only remains they have found, after 13 years. The pain didn’t lessen for them when they then planned the burial.

In some ways this tragedy did change this city for the better. We are more caring for each other and has manifested itself in subsequent emergencies. During the first black out after 9/11 there were people taking in strangers and driving people home when there was no mass transit. The same for the 2nd. During Sandy we again saw people and communities coming together, something that didn’t happen in the blackout that took place earlier in the decade and there is no doubt that it will manifest itself again in the next.

So, for those who are tired of this and don’t care, that is fine. Just shut off your TV’s and ignore it. For those of who want to vilify NY’ers for doing what they see fit, fine. You are entitled to your opinion. But there are many who want to honor those that helped and/or remember those that were lost, let them do what they see fit to do and don’t need to have guilt thrust on us. You don’t have to participate.

Trying to make those who feel strongly about this and apply guilt by displaying images of how brutal the US can be doesn’t take away the pain from a mother who lost her son one day when all he did was go off to work, or a child who never met their father, just like in other parts of the world. Thinking that you experienced what those of us who lived here did is not realistic. You didn’t wake up every morning watching people aimlessly wandering this city looking for people, hundreds of thousands of flyers taped to fences, trees, hospitals with pictures asking “Did you see….please contact”. There is an image of a young man which is forever etched in my mind. I don’t know if he was ever found but I will never forget it. Nor will I ever forget going over to NYU Medical Center and seeing doctors and nurses lined up outside waiting, but no one showed up and they were crying. So many images are etched in my mind. You were able to shut off you tv and put it away if only for a while. We couldn’t. We lived it 24/7 for months.

As for those who insist in continuing to mention the jumpers, I hope it brings you pleasure because even the majority of the media has honored the request of families and they do not bring it up or show the images because there are many that are very sensitive to being reminded of that. That was one of the major requests of survivors and families to the media and has for the most part been honored. Yes, it was a reality but many understand that it isn’t necessary to remind some of us and inappropriate at this point in time.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

I don't expect anyone to get over anything.

I cannot equate one person's pain with the pain that was inflicted in the name of that pain.

The whole thing is messed up. I don't expect nor do I feel I solicited sympathy.

But I cannot say that New Yorkers deserve more sympathy than the families of those we tortured in the names of those who died on that day.

No comparison. We cannot compare pain or suffering. My heart goes out to everyone who was touched by those events, and that's pretty much everyone. Everyone has a story. And yes, it's more real if you can feel and smell the ash and see the posters.

I am truly sorry for your pain.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

This was a horrifying tragedy. We all suffered in some degree. I don't want the pain and anger to eclipse our learning WHY it happened. How can we stop things like this if we never look at the WHY?

TV news showed young people touring a display at the memorial in NYC. Does anything there tell them WHY innocent civilians were targeted? Do they know it was in retaliation for the civilians being killed in another country?

It was intended to get our attention -- as a people -- when nothing else had done so. All these years later we only focus on our pain. We aren't *learning* anything to prevent history from repeating.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

I suggest what my daughter and I have done every year since 2001. We go up to the Olympic Mts and avoid all media for the day. Now we take my two grandsons out of school and take them with us. Actually started this in 2001 on the day the nation had the first moment of silence. Got out of town, away from everything and experience what is important in life.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

But I cannot say that New Yorkers deserve more sympathy than the families of those we tortured in the names of those who died on that day.

I certainly never said that, nor do I feel that way nor did anyone else but you. I am sure there are some that do but many others feel as I do. You are the one that continues to make that claim based on your own perception. Everyone's pain is their own and is equally painful but the circumstances, and what one had/has to endure is/was very different as is how one handles it. You were asked to view this through the lens of some of us who were there and lost those we love Instead we got nothing but insults and defensive retorts from you including one of the most insensitive and offensive ones I have ever encountered.

Now tell me that one person's pain is greater than another's. That because a person was IN NYC or had a family member die on that day, that their pain is more valid. I feel badly for those people, but I feel worse for those who were affected after, because at least the ones on 9/11 got to die heroes, maintained their dignity and are memorialized

Being incinerated alive or forced to commit suicide is hardly "at least" a dignified death in anyone’s eyes nor were they heroes. They were victims. It seems that you are taking offense at the choice to commemorate and/or remember them because others elsewhere aren't afforded the same option and it would make YOU feel better if we don't as if somehow that would equalize things. It doesn't.

But you did try to not only diminish the lives of many and the feelings of an entire city, you also tried to trivialize the way they were murdered as if they were put to bed with a morphine patch and allowed to slowly expire peacefully with sweet music wafting through the air.

I am done with this thread as well.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

"Now tell me that one person's pain is greater than another's. That because a person was IN NYC or had a family member die on that day, that their pain is more valid. I feel badly for those people, but I feel worse for those who were affected after, because at least the ones on 9/11 got to die heroes, maintained their dignity and are memorialized "

I don't think I've ever read a more selfish or insensitive post.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

Perhaps emotions were running too high and statements were made which were worded in a way not intended, in calmer times perhaps would not even be felt, much less said.
I have always thought Silver to be one of the more compassionate and kind members in this forum, even if we differed in opinion or perspective on some issues.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

"Perhaps emotions were running too high and statements were made which were worded in a way not intended..."

You beat me to it, Mylab. Silver would be hard put to offend anyone intentionally, based upon her past posts, IMO.

The criticism is needlessly harsh. Simple disagreement would have sufficed.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

Since labrea was addressing me I get to say I still disagree. I do not and will not believe that any of our loses are more important or painful or real than the losses of innocents anywhere. No matter how your loved ones died. When as a country we are responsible for those deaths we must try to understand what that means to and for us. That we would take our grief and our loss of innocent lives and turn that into grief and loss for others on a scale that pales besides what happened to us is beyond belief for me. I thought we were better than that and I was wrong. I am aware that Labrea is never going to agree with me but I don't care. I will grieve equally for the innocent people elsewhere-the ones we killed. I am not just an American. First I am a human being.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

Patricia, I agree with both you AND Joe.

I dont believe there is single perspective to hold as truth in this issue. The common thread, though, is unnecessary and manufactured tragedy.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

"Perhaps emotions were running too high and statements were made which were worded in a way not intended, in calmer times perhaps would not even be felt, much less said."

Perhaps. But for now we have no choice but to take the statements at face value and accept this may be exactly how the poster feels. Attempts to mitigate the experience of those directly involved and affected on this day is so inappropriate and quite frankly, to use this thread as a 'USA bad' reminder is insulting.

I've read through a plethora of threads on which one could contribute their thoughts on 'USA bad'. Let this one thread stand as a reminder of the thousands of victims, the devastation of a city and it's residents, and the heroism, goodwill and sense of togetherness that surfaced afterwards.

Please don't muddy the waters of a day that changed the lives of so many because when it comes to the extremists that perpetrated this crime, we should be refusing to give them one iota of legitimacy.

This post was edited by hostafrenzy on Fri, Sep 13, 13 at 6:03


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I just want to say, chisue, you're right. What you've said really sticks with me. I know we don't agree on much, but I really liked this. So much so, I sent it on a friend along with some quotes from Bin Laden (who basically says exactly what you've said). We can't stop it from happening again. But maybe I can change one person's mind.

_____________________
"This was a horrifying tragedy. We all suffered in some degree. I don't want the pain and anger to eclipse our learning WHY it happened. How can we stop things like this if we never look at the WHY?

TV news showed young people touring a display at the memorial in NYC. Does anything there tell them WHY innocent civilians were targeted? Do they know it was in retaliation for the civilians being killed in another country?

It was intended to get our attention -- as a people -- when nothing else had done so. All these years later we only focus on our pain. We aren't *learning* anything to prevent history from repeating."


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

Sheesh.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

I must have missed that news blurb. Where exactly did the US commit an act of terrorism against another country before 9/11 that justified that attack?


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

So you're saying there have never been wars in the Middle East in which we were involved Mrs K? I'm not saying he's right or justified. I'm saying it's not about relgion. Yes, he intermingles rhetroic in all he says, but that doesn't make him Mulsim any more than Westboro is truly Christian. He's an extremist. He doesn't represent the entire group any more than Westboro is Godly (try 1 John 4: 16-21 to see why I disagree they are truly Christian).

___________
Here's what he said, as examples:

• If inciting people to do that is terrorism, and if killing those who kill our sons is terrorism, then let history be witness that we are terrorists.
o On the September 11, 2001 attacks, in CNN broadcast of an interview that Al-Jazeera conducted in October 2001 (31 January 2002)
• Just like you kill us, we will kill you.
o Audiotape aired on Al-Jazeera (12 November 2002)
• We fought with you because we are free, and we don't put up with transgressions. We want to reclaim our nation. As you spoil our security, we will do so to you.
o Videotape broadcast on Aljazeera and CNN (29 October 2004) - al-Jazeera transcript - CNN transcript
• And as I was looking at those towers that were destroyed in Lebanon, it occurred to me that we have to punish the transgressor with the same, and that we had to destroy the towers in America, so that they taste what we tasted and they stop killing our women and children.
o Videotape broadcast on al-Jazeera TV as reported by CNN (29 October 2004)

This post was edited by rob333 on Fri, Sep 13, 13 at 9:16


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

It's not about religion? It's not about destroying "the great satan". It's not about beheading Christians, burning their churches and homes? ok rob...we'll agree to disagree. We may have killed innocent people, but we have never targeted innocent people to kill.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

Some of the old retreads keep coming back with new names to grind old axes!
Thanks K your right!
There's a lot of horse crap before horse before the cart & puerile national self loathing!


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

This has nothing to do with self loathing. It has noting to do with USA bad. It has to do with taking responsibility for who we are and what we do. In a historical context there is nothing exceptional to use a word from another post about what we have done, but we are supposed to be better than those who came before us. When we as a nation decide to disrupt a country as we have done so many times in the middle east for our own purposes innocent people get caught in the crossfire. We are actually responsible for that. The mangled dead are on our heads. We have had a problem recognizing that so the families of those mangled dead decided to give us a taste of our own medicine-it is a hard and nasty dose and would only work if it was innocent people who died so in a take that and see how you like it moment a bunch of their people actually gave their lives to make us see and some of us have but most have not. We returned the favor in multiple kind creating an even bigger pool of affected people. We have learned nothing and I suspect they haven't either. Perhaps it is a learning moment that acts of war never achieve anything, theirs or ours. Violence begets violence and the cycle goes on.
Labrea, I am not in any way dismissing your pain and your experiences. I know that for the rest of your life your heart will race every time you hear sirens and you will never get the smell of death out of your nostrils but if we are capable of learning anything you ought to be trying to take the next step. I say that in a spirit of friendship.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

I happened to turn on TV just after the first plane hit. They were saying it was an accident, and I thought "wow some idiot flew his plane into the WTC." Then the 2nd plane hit and what was happening became clear. I worried for the people stuck on the floors of the buildings above the impacts. I watched a brief clip of someone jumping from the building. Shock and horror! Then the buildings came down, one after the other. I felt a deep sense of sadness and empathy for those who died in an instant.

Then, as time went on I learned more about the history the US had with Bin Laden (providing him with arms against the USSR) and his anger with the US for occupying their holy land because they wanted oil (don't blame him, we wouldn't like it either). Watched the Bush administration rush into a war with a country that had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks, again because we wanted oil, and I thought "the chickens have come home to roost".

I feel little personal trauma because of 9/11. I don't know anyone who died. I don't worry about being killed by terrorists - there are much greater risks out there, including heart disease, cancer, and motor vehicle accidents. But it is complicated - like others on this thread, I am sad for the innocents who were killed and traumatized on both sides; and so angry with the "powers that be" and that includes my own government.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

patriciae-
You're dead on. The wilful ignorance many in the U.S. have of how we have meddled in other countries and how it more often than not has come back to bite us is a big obstacle to moving forward as a country. As George Santayana famously said: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

Wow, I think I'm going to throw up.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

mrskjun-
Sorry to hear that.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

You know kudzu, and a couple of others. Sometimes the threads on HT can get downright nasty. In fact I'd say epi pretty much can't stand my guts. But I have to say, she and Joe and anyone else here who lost friends and family on 9/11, deserve at least a modicum of respect. If you want to trash the US and tell us that all those innocent people deserved to die because the US is a big meanie.....this was not the thread to do it. I'm ashamed of some of you even if you can't be ashamed of yourselves.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

We do agree on one thing. They killed non-war personnel on purpose. Can we not agree all non-war personnel killings are throw up worthy? They too lost mothers, fathers, children...

He's not justified. I'm not going that far. I'm saying it hurts to look in the mirror and see he is right about anything. Let's all stop the cycle. I don't see how America wasn't going to go to war over the attack, and I even say, I endorse it. But it is foolish to think anyone can stamp out terrorism. They shoulda gone after him and his group, only them. Why did all the other countrymen warrant the wrath?


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

Then why don't you start a memorial thread for him rob.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

mrskjun-
You miss the point and put words in my mouth. I don't see anywhere that I said innocent people -- in any country -- deserved to die. The world is a complicated place. It's possible to both respect those who died in 9/11 and to also recognize that the U.S. does not always have the purest motives. This should make us reflective. I'm troubled that you think people should be ashamed if they point out how some of our foreign policy actions can backfire. Sometimes our actions have bad consequences for us, and it can be painful to contemplate this truth. It's our duty as citizens to be critical of our government.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

I hear it this way kudzu
Someone standing near a car accident.
"i wonder wuz any of them drinkin"
You know just saying cause it needed to be said because no one ever said it before & these things need to be said by somebody


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

Then you skipped over how I said I endorsed the war. Trust me, I don't mourn his passing. I do mourn their lost women and children. Almost as much as I mourn the loss of america's sons and daughters. But I'll not turn my back on any of the innocents.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

I will grieve equally for the innocent people elsewhere-the ones we killed.

As do many of us and just like anyone who looses a loved one, their families remember that person on the anniversary of their death which is what did here in NY. The same way they do so around the world in many other places. hopefully they are allowed to do so without the judgment that was shown here. As a human being who is sensitive to others at least I hope so.

Who said that “our losses are more important or painful or real than the losses of innocents anywhere”? NO ONE BUT YOU.

We are all human beings first so don’t try to play martyr and pretend that those who were grieving on the anniversary of the death of their loved ones don’t give a shizz about anyone else. MANY OF US DO, but there is no reason that I can’t take one day to honor those I love and remember what many of us here went through and not be maligned for it or told that my family member is no more important that anyone else, when in fact, they are to me. They are not some abstract like they are to you. My doing so doesn’t lessen the death or the lives of countless others that have been killed because of my government or others policies but it allows me to take a step away and remember and honor someone that I knew and loved and miss. .

I criticize my government all the time and the abhorrent acts that we have perpetuated on others and the vile despots we have supported that caused the deaths of countless of innocents so to try to portray some of us as if we don’t care about anyone else is ridiculous and simply wrong.

This thread was about 9/11 and what happened 13 years ago. What I don’t understand is why some are judging and making assumptions. I personally have spent years working for non-profits and organizations that work towards preventing atrocities from happening in the future. I don't just sit in my living room armchair quarterbacking and criticizing others on discussion boards like some.

Sometimes it is just not appropriate to say anything and to just allow others to feel. If someone crashed a car into a tree and it was their own fault and you went to the funeral to pay your respects to their family would you callously say to them well, it’s their own fault they died and I don’t feel bad because they did it to themselves? The family of someone who commits suicide, do you say, well I don’t feel bad because it is their own fault? You would probably hold your tongue but the anonymity of the internet gives some people balls that they wouldn't ordinarily have in real life and allows their insensitivity to be expressed as we saw here. Because some of us grieve and remember our own dead on the anniversary of their death it doesn’t mean we don’t feel for anyone else. It doesn’t mean that we don’t recognize what caused the deaths but there are appropriate times to discuss these things and appropriate things to say, and “at least” is not one of them.

I said above that I don’t expect anyone to know how it felt to be here in NY or to have lost anyone on that day, and because I grieve for my own it doesn’t mean that I don’t grieve for those around the world who have died because of the violence inflicted on others be they in Iraq, Afghanistan, So. America, Israel, Palestine, or anywhere else.

We are ALL human beings and as such most of us are sensitive to everyone’s loss and feelings and behave accordingly but based on some of the posts on this thread some don't share that characteristic.


Mrsk, let me state again, I do not hate you. I don’t know you to have such strong feelings about you. What I don't like is when you distort my words, the games you play and although we diagree on many issues I don’t hate you. And I thank you for being sensitive to those of us who experienced loss on that day. It is appreciated and recognized.

This post was edited by epiphyticlvr on Fri, Sep 13, 13 at 17:01


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Fri, Sep 13, 13 at 16:19

“We should bleed America economically by provoking it to continue in its massive expenditure on its security, for the weak point of America is its economy, which has already begun to stagger due to the military and security expenditure,” he said. Keeping America in such a state of tension and anticipation only required a few disparate attacks “here and there.”

Here is a link that might be useful: Al Qaeda Leader Threatens to Bleed America Economically Via Small-scale Attacks


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

has anyone thought to drag Walmart into the discussion yet?
As long as it's a gang bang hey what the hell? Know whatumsayin!


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

Like some demented Pavlovian self loathing response with any and all tragedies we need to list the litany of fault of those killed.
Jus saying knowhutamean?
Jus saying thats all!


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

So do you think they would've attacked regardless? Seriously.

I don't know, maybe I'm just looking for answers. There is no sense to be found in all of this insanity. But they do live in a world where if they're attacked, they will retaliate in kind. They just brought it to our shores. We'd never truly seen it like that. I don't want to see it again. Ever.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

Thank you to those who have faith in my character. I was not intending to hurt anyone. My feelings got a bit fired up and I had the misfortune of posting directly under Labrea's post which made it seem like I was directing it more at him than I really was.

To anyone offended by my post, please remember this is an open forum and the OP didn't start the post with a "this is a post about Sept. 11 - please only post good thoughts".

That said, I WAS having a bad day yesterday and could have been more sensitive. I apologize. Sometimes without visual or auditory nuances the little things get lost. I did not mean to diminish the pain of anyone or insinuate that one person has it worse.

Labrea, I'm sure I have no clue what it's like to live in your neighborhood. I cannot imagine. I am truly sorry you face it every day. I don't. You're right. I have no clue of what you experienced. My experience was different. I'm sorry you don't see it as equally valid.

And you're right Epi. I simply cannot imagine the fear of being pregnant and breathing that dust. You're right. That's much worse than my being pregnant and going through what I went through. No sarcasm. There really is no comparison. I hope and trust your baby is as well as mine.

I've had to reconcile my thoughts as best I can, from the perspective of a very naive, young person who was at the time more frightened than I'd ever been to dealing with the aftermath of having family members and friends and neighbors - young, vital men and middle-aged fathers go over to that horrible war and die, and worse yet, come back maimed. I saw my neighbor's body burned and dragged through the streets of Fallujah.

Is it worse that a family member died ON 9-11 or is it worse AS A RESULT of 9-11? Who gets to decide how we can discuss 9-11? Those who were there for the initial attacks, or those who were affected by the way our country reacted as a result of those attacks?

That's my point. There are so many affected, and yes, I'm a bit tired of people claiming MORE VALID suffering or being snarky...

"It's PTSD, you don't get it from watching CNN"

REALLY? Did you know that you can get PTSD from simply viewing a traumatic event, without having been directly involved? Did you know studies were done after 9-11 that determined that even if a person was not there, or even directly connected with someone there, that many experienced the abnormal cognition of PTSD and that the impact should be considered a spectrum of severity?

I'm a little familiar with being around people with severe PTSD. Having a father and several uncles come back alive from Viet Nam, staying with my best friend's husband so I could help care for their baby while she could care for her husband and waking up to his screams after he came back from Iraq, then having him slam my head down one day "protecting me" when a car backfired near us....

But it's assumed I have no clue. Thanks for telling me. Your PTSD is for sure the most valid. I don't get the one-up-man-ship but it doesn't matter. I have nothing to one-up. It was awful, as I said above, for everyone and my heart breaks for us all. No comparison.

"they didn't die heroes" THE HECK THEY DIDN'T!!!!

A lot of the people who died DID die heroes. Books were written, movies were made. They WERE heroes. Ever hear of The Heroes of Flight 93 or how about a book called The Surprising Life and Heroic Death of Father Mychal Judge"? I'm not trivializing anything. People died horrible deaths that day and did heroic things in the process.

And AFTER THAT DAY PEOPLE CONTINUED TO DIE HORRIBLE DEATHS and act heroically, in places OTHER than NYC, as a DIRECT RESULT of 9-11.

Except that's not acknowledged. It's as if 9-11 were just one day of tragedy in one place instead of an ongoing tragedy. For me it's intertwined. I simply cannot separate 9-11 the day from 9-11 the spark that set the world on flames and resulted in multiple times the casualties.

9-11 will be a HOT topic for a long time, I'm sure. A lot of conflicting issues. I don't understand why the deaths on that day are the only thing we should be allowed to discuss. I would never want to cause anyone pain and I'm truly sorry if I have offended anyone here. Not my intention.

And, consider the forum. Perhaps a mourning 9-11 topic could be started in Conversations for those who wish to only read and post condolences.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

How about a daily listing of US atrocities and a linkage to everything that hasn't already been said about them I swear I'll join in and contribute.
I truly will.
Other than that i shall be cranky each year some one has to tell me their tortuous repetition of something they accept as a REASON!.
... that why a plane flew into the ground in Pennsylvania & That's why a plane flew into the Pentagon & That's why a plane flew into the world trade Center & that's why the IRA blew up that pub & tats why they blew up a bar in Bali a train in Spain.
I didn't accept this from my IRA supporting family when I was a teen & they were raising money for NORAID.
Murder is murder & the murderers on both side can make their own excuses but it's pitiful when the lab rats want to hold the scalpel them selves!


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

That's much worse than my being pregnant and going through what I went through. No sarcasm. There really is no comparison. I hope and trust your baby is as well as mine.

I disagree. Your trauma was as valid as mine. My experience was different and perhaps more traumatic and physically detrimental but your pain and fear was real to you. My point in posting what I did was to show you that trying to invalidate or dismiss others pain, or experiences as you did was wrong and uncalled for. Our pain was no more or less than anyone elses be it a woman who lost her husband at the WTC or who lost her son in Iraq, or who’s 19 year old son is missing 3 limbs from a roadside bomb in Fallujah or my friend who lost his sister in Iraq because she was no longer able to get medical care for her cancer after we went in to “bring freedom and democracy” and because of us their family was forced to split up between Iraq, Jordan and Syria and he being here.

You still don’t seem to get it. Our taking one day to remember our loved ones who were murdered in a senseless act does not diminish anyone else’s loss or what facilitated it or what happened subsequently. It also is not worse or better than anything.

My child is fine thank you.

I've had to reconcile my thoughts as best I can, from the perspective of a very naive, young person who was at the time more frightened than I'd ever been to dealing with the aftermath of having family members and friends and neighbors - young, vital men and middle-aged fathers go over to that horrible war and die, and worse yet, come back maimed. I saw my neighbor's body burned and dragged through the streets of Fallujah.

That’s fine but it sounds like you are trying to justify the insensitivity of your words. Many of us have friends who have been detrimentally affected by the actions of this country and many of us were against going to war from the start to avenge the killing of our own family members. I have been very vocal about that for years. That doesn’t mean we can’t take a day to remember people we lost of a traumatic event we experienced. There are many who were wounded and families who lost loved ones in Iraq and Afghanistan who don’t resent commemorating those who were lost on 9/11 like you do. There are many that don’t begrudge anyone their chance to remember their loved ones and are able to understand without judgment or criticism.

Is it worse that a family member died ON 9-11 or is it worse AS A RESULT of 9-11? Who gets to decide how we can discuss 9-11? Those who were there for the initial attacks, or those who were affected by the way our country reacted as a result of those attacks?

For me personally loosing a family member and close friends was worse.

That said overall you are comparing apples and oranges and I don’t understand your need to continually compare the two as if one negates the other. They are equally abhorrent. There is no comparison nor should there be. Our remembering those who died in this city does not negate the atrocities that have taken place elsewhere. We are simply remembering 3000 innocent people who went to work one day and didn’t come home, many of them perishing in a horrific way and countless others who survived and have to live with these memories.

They didn’t have anything to do with the actions of our government before or after but are just innocent pawns and shouldn’t have to pay for the sins of our government as you seem to want to do. You are the only one who keeps trying to make comparisons and stating that some think that one is worse than the other, no one else. Why do you feel it is wrong for us to recognize these people? Why do you have a need to compare?

That's my point. There are so many affected, and yes, I'm a bit tired of people claiming MORE VALID suffering or being snarky..
they didn't die heroes" THE HECK THEY DIDN'T!!!!
.

No need to yell. You are the only one making that claim.

I am tired of having to defend remembering those I loved and having you diminish their death with “at least they died a hero” as if that means anything to anyone but you. It isn't accurate and doesn't lessen the pain of the loss and it certainly didn’t mean anything to him or the others that didn’t die heroes, again they died victims.

Speak to survivors and they will tell you stories that are less than heroic and more about surviving and doing what they needed to do. Hard to call someone a hero who had to choose between jumping from 80 stories or burning to death. Yes, there were heroic acts but there are many more stories simply of survival, fear and panic, not heroics. Those don’t sell books but their stories are there.

And AFTER THAT DAY PEOPLE CONTINUED TO DIE HORRIBLE DEATHS and act heroically, in places OTHER than NYC, as a DIRECT RESULT of 9-11.
Except that's not acknowledged. It's as if 9-11 were just one day of tragedy in one place instead of an ongoing tragedy. For me it's intertwined. I simply cannot separate 9-11 the day from 9-11 the spark that set the world on flames and resulted in multiple times the casualties.

Again, yelling doesn’t make it accurate. Who says they are not acknowledged? You? I hope they are all acknowledged by their families and communities in every country but I have no control over that. I live in a large city that decided to commemorate those that died and because of the magnitude of the tragedy it gets a lot of coverage and you seem to have a problem with that. Again, it doesn’t negate or diminish anyone else. I wish we didn't have to acknowledge any of these things and that they would never happen. The fact that the media uses it for their own purposes it gets a lot of coverage also isn’t in my control. Personally, I would prefer it stay local but others feel differently and many feel this was a national tragedy so it gets attention.

This city also does a lot of things to recognize victims and heroes of other tragedies who have been killed and wounded since that day including soldiers who were wounded in Iraq and Afghanistan. I have mentioned before my former organization brought wounded soldiers several times a year from Walter Reed to NYC. No it didn’t get the national publicity that 9/11 gets but we got support from everyone in this city we asked to help. From free hotel rooms and food, to free entrance fees and monetary support, The Yankees, Broadway, The NY Rangers and others all were open to do what they could to show their support and acknowledge these young men and women and treat them appropriately, as heroes and acknowledge their sacrifice. These young men and women who were directly affected didn’t show resentment like you are and if anyone had the right to it was them. It wasn't a lot but it was our way of saying thank you and trying to find a way to help them and help them heal and acknowledge what they did.

Another organization I worked for provides services for children in Iraq who were wounded or lost family doing similar things by taking them away to heal. These don’t get the media attention that 9/11 does.

"Warriors paint the apple red"
" A Trip to New York Gives Wounded Veterans a Break From a Patient’s Dull Routine"

. I don't understand why the deaths on that day are the only thing we should be allowed to discuss. I would never want to cause anyone pain and I'm truly sorry if I have offended anyone here. Not my intention.
And, consider the forum. Perhaps a mourning 9-11 topic could be started in Conversations for those who wish to only read and post condolences.

For someone who doesn’t intend to offend you continue to. No one is stopping you from discussing whatever you want to discuss. I just don’t understand your resentment towards the attention that the victims of 9/11 get and your feeling that it takes away from others.
Perhaps instead of posting your tirades on what could have been a benign thread showing respect for the dead and survivors you could have started your own thread about the atrocities perpetuated by the US that led to the tragedy. I would have been happy to participate. There are appropriate times and places for certain discussions. Since you did so on this thread, which was your right, and this is hot topics, you should expect responses from those who find your posts offensive, inappropriate, wrong and insensitive. You also should expect some of us to correct your wrong assumption that those who feel for the innocent victims of 9/11 do not feel for the victims of other tragedies, man created or otherwise.

You are far from the only one who knows people who have suffered beause of our countries actions.

This post was edited by epiphyticlvr on Fri, Sep 13, 13 at 21:27


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

Decided to read this tonight. Remember that Missy and I got a call from her best friend to turn on the tube. Felt myself harden inside in response to unimagined events happening as we watched knowing that it indicated a blow to the dignity of all mankind. Good vibes and thoughts to all the walking wounded carrying their visible and non visible injuries from that day and as a result of that day. I still hold the belief that we as humans are better than what was done and the response. Many have lost that vision and the hope is it can be recovered.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

Don, that was a truly beautiful post!

"Hard to call someone a hero who had to choose between jumping from 80 stories or burning to death."

Many people working on lower floors realized the urgency of the situation only when they saw these people fall past their windows, and evacuated. Heroes isn't the right word, but the horrible manner of these deaths contributed to many surviving.

I was somewhat surprised to learn that the 9-11 Memorial Museum will have a semi private viewing area of pictures that include those jumping or falling. It must have been a very difficult decision to arrive at, but evidently many of their family members wanted this to be part of the history and include full disclosure of the horrendous scope and nature of this crime. I so admire their strength in this decision.

This post was edited by hostafrenzy on Sat, Sep 14, 13 at 9:16


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

Yes; very nice post, Don. "Good vibes and thoughts to all the walking wounded carrying their visible and non visible injuries from that day and as a result of that day."

It's a very non-controversial post, which is great, but I think the venting that has gone on in this thread is a very good thing too.

Hosta, I didn't know about that semi-private area; that's interesting.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

I agree that the venting in this thread could be a good thing but if only some good come from it, particularly for those who were venting.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

`but evidently many of their family members wanted this to be part of the history and include full disclosure of the horrendous scope and nature of this crime.

The families share no credit or blame.They are not responsible for the content of the museum. They were advised and asked for suggestions in the planning stages but the education dept and museum curators are ultimately responsible for what goes in the permanent displays and special exhbiits and they have a mandate to tell the entire story of what happened that day and that is part of the story. They were sensitive that some of the families did not want to see these photos again because some don’t want to be able to identify their family member and it is not appropriate for some young visitors to see so they came up with a good option.

Many people working on lower floors realized the urgency of the situation only when they saw these people fall past their windows, and evacuated. Heroes isn't the right word, but the horrible manner of these deaths contributed to many surviving.

Not true in most cases people left disregarding the loud speakers telling them the South Tower was safe. Perhaps in a few cases it convinced those that stayed to get out but most people realized the urgency long before that. You shouldn’t believe everything you read. You should visit the museum when it officially opens and you can hear the real stories of what happened that day, not the sensationalized storues that are written to sell newspapers like the Daily Mail.

This post was edited by epiphyticlvr on Sat, Sep 14, 13 at 15:42


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

My understanding is that in the planning stages, various groups were formed that were comprised of family members, disaster psychologists, researchers, etc. These groups received input from family members and made personal and professional recommendations as to appropriateness of and manner of display. If I recall correctly, how to handle trace remains (a private repository) and final audio voice recordings (which were incorporated), as well as the jumper photos were among issues handled by these groups.

Yes ultimately, Museum's Director, Alice Greenwald and the Museum's Board (consisting of family members) made final decisions, but not without the support of many families of victims. I can only trust that had an overwhelming majority of family members made the decision to veto incorporation of sensitive material, Ms. Greenwald and the Board would have honored that decision.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

"You shouldn’t believe everything you read. You should visit the museum when it officially opens and you can hear the real stories of what happened that day, not the sensationalized storues that are written to sell newspapers like the Daily Mail."

I didn't see this when I responded above, must of been part of your edit? None the less, let me assure you I had the most unfortunate opportunity to hear that first hand. Your presumptuousness was not appreciated. Good day.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

I am well aware of what the museum planning entailed and the how the decisions were and are continuing to be made. My family has had a member sit on the board since its inception and we have all participated on various committees and in the planning process since the inception.

As I said above the families were consulted (and have been throughout the process); asked for suggestions and their input was considered especially personal information and about how to best handle many sensitive issues but the final determination was done by the education dept and the museum curators taking all into consideration.

Alice Greenwald directs the museum and is involved with many things including being the figurehead , fundraising, budgets, etc. as is Joe Daniels the President, but the final decision on the museum displays and content are not theirs alone and has been handled by professionals who were hired for their expertise and who know what is best for a museum of this magnitude. The decisions were made after all the information was compiled and is still being tweaked as it moves forward.

Almost everyone agrees that the entire story should be told, including the more disturbing details and there have been many discussions on how best to do so taking everyone and everything into consideration. It has been a long, slow process and has been going on for years.

The unidentified remains are currently being held in a separate facility at the Coroner’s office with a private memorial attached for family members only. They will eventually be incorporated into the museum and it is still being decided exactly how and when and how to accommodate the familes who have not received the remains of their loved ones with a private area/memorial which was not part of the original plans but has been requested if they will no longer have the other to use.


The fact remains that thankfully many of those who were on the lower floors of both towers had left the buildings relatively early. This is recognized as being a factor in why there were fewer casualties than initially thought, along with the hour the attacks took place. It is documented and will be part of the educational component of the museum which will try to correct the misinformation that has been reported over the years. I was simply correcting your claim that “many” left the towers after seeing people jump which research has shown to be incorrect but was reported by some of the media who like to sensationalize stories.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

Good Grief.

I take vacation and come back just on a few threads and find this place is nastier than ever.

My life is worse than yours, no my life is worse than yours no you don't know what it was like yes I know mine was worse.

Good God.

Peace to the dead.
They'd be ashamed for some of you if they read this thread.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

I don't know.

You're right. I'm "yelling" out of frustration. No need. The government will never get on television and amidst all the patriotic BS that's wrapped around this very human tragedy say that we brought this on ourselves (not those innocent 3,000, but collective WE), and after the terrorist attacks we acted like terrorists and a lot more were killed.

I saw nothing on 9-11 mainstream news that said "3,000 died that day and thousands more as a result of that day and we went against our morals and tortured people and let's have a day of recognition".

It all talks about the 3,000. No problem with that, except I feel that it's making that day the tragedy when I feel it's been an ongoing tragedy spurred on by that catalytic event. We plan solemn ceremonies" to commemorate the attacks. That's good! Nothing AT ALL wrong with that.

My fear is that we will turn it into a "poor US, we had 3,000 people die" event rather than looking at the much bigger picture. If that sounds callous, I am truly sorry. I am not trying to be callous. September 11 was the beginning of the end and there's nothing good about anything that happened as a result of that day, IMO.

RIP to the dead, my sympathies to the living. Awful day all around that turned into an awful 12 years following and no end in sight.

To make it very clear, I have no problem with people mourning on 9-11 or on any other day. I personally don't see that day as being more to mourn than any other day because I see what came after that day, what America did as a result, and what continues as being just as bad/horrific if not more but that's my business.

I see 9-11 as being really tragic and sad and terrible. I see what we did in the name of our country to people as a result of 9-11 as worse in the big picture. I know there's no comparing the individual loved one's deaths against those tortured in our camps. Each soul is loved individually and I don't mean disrespect to anyone's loved ones.

Demi, I don't think anyone who died would be ashamed, although I understand what you're saying. I think if we were all in a room together we'd be able to see (as they would) that emotions are high and everyone is terribly sorry the whole thing happened no matter what was responsible or who died or what happened afterward. Unprecedented in our nation. Completely understandable that people wouldn't know quite how to handle what happened.

Just my opinion.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

I was about to leave for work in NYC when the phone rang and it was my ex-husband. Answered and he was crying. He'd pulled over on the highway and was watching the 1st tower burn and was concerned I was there. Needless to say, I didn't leave for work. Put on TV and watched the ensuing horror. Saw the 2nd plane hit and knew it was no accident. DD called from high school hysterical. They let all the kids whose parents work in the city go to library and use their cell phones (usually prohibited in school) to call. Calmed her down and reassured her that I was home safe and had not gone into the city. Some of the kids in her school were not as lucky.

Beautiful fall days, like we had here recently, still bring back the memories.

Peace to the dead.
They'd be ashamed for some of you if they read this thread.

Amazing how you feel you can speak for the dead.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

silversword-
Well put...you got the balance just right.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

Jill, as someone who only watched it on TV, a beautiful crisp fall day with the perfect light and clear cloudless skies always brings back that day to me.

I will never forget it and will honor those who died every year on that day by flying my flag at half staff.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

The day after was 9/12, and that gave us a whole political movement with Glenn Beck and a whole host of those affiliated today with the tea partiers.

I'm still trying to figure out how that went down.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

Peace to the dead.
They'd be ashamed for some of you if they read this thread.

Amazing how you feel you can speak for the dead.

*

The dead are on a higher plane than the living.

I'm living and I AM ASHAMED of some of the responses that others have made.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

I'm living and I AM ASHAMED of some of the responses that others have made.

OK. Then why not just say that if that's your point? For someone that is so offended when you perceive someone is trying to speak for you, it amazed me you'd try to speak for the dead.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

Posted by jillinnj (My Page) on
Mon, Sep 16, 13 at 15:11

I'm living and I AM ASHAMED of some of the responses that others have made.

OK. Then why not just say that if that's your point? For someone that is so offended when you perceive someone is trying to speak for you, it amazed me you'd try to speak for the dead.

*

I did speak for the dead, and for myself.

You should be amazed.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

Thank you Kudzu, I'm really, really not trying to hurt anyone or ruffle feathers. Sometimes I have a hard time putting words to paper, or words to air, for that matter!

So I do appreciate everyone's patience. The sticking points seem to be words.

VICTIM

HERO

SHAME

APPROPRIATE

SHOULD

Epi...

For someone who doesn’t intend to offend you continue to."

Again, I am very sorry you are taking personal offense to my opinions. I know that I am not eloquent sometimes, and I apologize if you are hurting. Not my intention.

I just don’t understand your resentment towards the attention that the victims of 9/11 get and your feeling that it takes away from others.

I don't resent the attention that the victims are getting. I don't even feel resentment. It's hard to put my feelings into words about this. I don't want to take ANYTHING away from those who are suffering.

Perhaps instead of posting your tirades on what could have been a benign thread showing respect for the dead and survivors you could have started your own thread about the atrocities perpetuated by the US that led to the tragedy.

My "tirades"? What's wrong with this thread? It's about 9-11 and the OP never said "please make this a benign thread". What the heck gives anyone the right to say what the thread should be about and if someone is out of line but the OP? You are placing your feelings on this thread and then holding me to your standard and then criticizing me for not being up to your standard!

There are appropriate times and places for certain discussions.

Consider my hand slapped. Who sets those times and places?

... you should expect responses from those who find your posts offensive, inappropriate, wrong and insensitive. You also should expect some of us to correct your wrong assumption that those who feel for the innocent victims of 9/11 do not feel for the victims of other tragedies, man created or otherwise.

I don't think I ever said those who feel for the innocent victims are incapable or do not feel for other victims. Those are your words. Keep them in your mouth please.

The only thing I "expect" from HT is to state my opinion, learn from others and hopefully have a better understanding of the topics discussed. My opinions are not set in stone. They are fluid.

On this thread I learned that many people are very upset and would like the day of 9-11-01 to be marked down as an untouchable - removed from context - day of memorial. I can respect that, and were I to be in NYC or an area with people using that day for such a commemoration I would be respectful of their gathering by not bringing up my feelings because it would not be appropriate.

Kind of like how when I'm in Temple and we are discussing the Holocaust I don't bring up the fact that Americans (specifically Californians) taught Hitler a lot about eugenics, and how absolutely responsible America should feel for the deaths of many many Jewish (and Polish and Gay and and and) people. Temple would not be the place any more than Ground Zero.

However, I do not feel this forum is such a place. Everyone is entitled to feel as they do about 9-11. I feel horribly for everyone affected, and I feel it important to figure out how we got in this situation, how we escalated our tragedy to take out our anger and hurt on other people, including other Americans (!!!) and where we go from here.

To me, personally, I have a lot of conflicting feelings. Words like:

Fear for personal safety
Astonishment at our government
Fear of retaliation
Disgust about torture
Anger about loss of personal freedoms in the name of safety
Anger that there were unheeded warnings
Anger that our innocence is gone
Fear for our children
Incredible sadness for all affected

And shame. Shame that our great country is in this place. We are no longer "home of the free". We have lost something. We have lost our integrity, we have lost any sympathy other countries have felt towards us, countries that have been getting bombed (some as a result of our practices as well) and we are now seen as a country that maybe, kinda, deserves a taste so that we can feel how others feel.

Sadness. So much absolute sadness. And I am so, so, so very very very sorry for your pain Epi, and anyone else who may have taken my rambling, sometimes maybe incoherent and for sure angry and afraid and confused words for anything directed at their loss.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

I don't think I actually took it all in until I heard Katie Couric, reporting on a plane hitting the WTC, & then the live camera showed the plane hitting the second tower, & Katie Couric said, "What the" & then recovered & kept reporting in her "newscaster's delivery voice."

That's when I knew it was real.

It was very much like the instant when Walter Cronkite paused, looked down at his desk, glanced at the clock behind him, removed his glasses & said that the president had died.

********

'I will never, ever forget the screaming of my father as his truck flew into my yard sideways and he took the stairs in one bound, pounding on my door the next morning, knowing I was dead but refusing to believe it. Ever.'

I love your daddy.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11


However, I do not feel this forum is such a place. Everyone is entitled to feel as they do about 9-11..

Silver, I have no idea why you feel the need to continue this with me. You have made your feelings perfectly clear and I understand them but I am also entitled to feel your timing, placement and some of your statements were inappropriate. I can go point to point with you but I won’t.

You are right this forum is where one is entitled to share how the feel and it is usually not the place to hold back on and sensitivities are usually checked at the door. You posted about being sensitive if you were in NY etc. yet In this case you had at least 2 people if not more who were lurking who were detrimentally affected by the events that took place on 9/11 and are still feeling the effects and know many who died or lost loved ones so it is not as if you were discussing this topic with people who had no direct involvement.

For me there are 364 other days to give my strong opinion on our countries culpability about the cause and effect and the subsequent actions, but on that day I feel that it is a day to allow those who are hurting to do so without animosity and it is not just for selfish reasons. This forum is read by many. Also, as I said earlier, personally I would have started a new thread where it could have been discussed indepth and not intertwined with posts sharing where they were and how they felt on that day but perhaps it is because I am more sensitive to it. But you can and did whatever you want/ed.

Had you posted a different thread to discuss some of your very valid points I would have been happy to engage, although probably not on the 11th. I actually agree with much of your sentiments, but on this particular thread, on that particular day, I feel it was inappropriate. That is my opinion and if you don’t like it I am sorry but it is how I feel.

I don’t necessarily want you, me or anyone to categorize my loved ones and others as anything including “victim”, “hero” or any of the buzz words that are used. I want them to be known for what they were which were average people, who, based on those I knew, were good, kind, loving human beings who went to work, were killed and didn’t come home because of circumstances beyond their control.

Unfortunately it seems that Demi decided to resurrect this thread 2 days after it seemed to have been put to bed to reprimand some posters. It is now 5 days later and I don't really see how this is productive. You already stated how you feel so if you want to continue please do so without inserting me into your conversation. I am done discussing this on this thread.

I will also add, no one gets to speak for anyone besides themselves unless authorized to do so, but no one can speak on behalf of 3000+ people they never met. One can ask for respect for them but not speak for them.

This post was edited by epiphyticlvr on Mon, Sep 16, 13 at 18:58


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

I will also add, no one gets to speak for anyone besides themselves unless authorized to do so, but no one can speak on behalf of 3000+ people they never met. One can respect them or not but not speak for them.

I agree, epi. Stating that you speak for the dead is just so bizarre. And coming from the one person constantly screaming at people because she thought they were speaking for her is beyond bizarre. There are no words.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Mon, Sep 16, 13 at 18:55

Original posters don't "own" threads here either, and are certainly not entitled to tell responders their posts aren't good enough or unacceptable in some other way.

Voice of experience here, having been bleated at that I had "ruined" someone's thread etc.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

Original posters don't "own" threads here either, and are certainly not entitled to tell responders their posts aren't good enough or unacceptable in some other way.

No they don't. But everyone is entitled to voice their opinions about statements that are made and give their reasons why they think that they are either inappropriate, insensitive or ill-timed, and suggest other alternatives that might be more sensitive but that doesn't mean one can stop anyone from posting or wants to.

This post was edited by epiphyticlvr on Mon, Sep 16, 13 at 19:08


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Mon, Sep 16, 13 at 19:14

More of what I said. Except there is supposed to be no straying into flaming etc. - as would be expected. If you look over all the rules they don't even want anyone talking about the rules! Of course the content here is hoped to be all entertainment and information that attracts people who are then exposed to the ads, same as with a television station.

This post was edited by bboy on Mon, Sep 16, 13 at 19:23


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

Silversword, it's not worth it.

Your opinion is every bit as important as anyone else's and it does not matter one WHIT what some posters think about what you post and they have absolutely no SAY in what you get to post about.

They're simply inconsequential.

As long as you're posting within the rules of the forum, you're good.

You don't deserve this raft.

Blow it off.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

Don't stir the pot Demi. I respect Silver and agree with many things that she posts including some of what she posted above. Just because we differ on certain aspects of this doesn't mean that either of us needs anyone to try to create animosity as your post(s) are trying to do.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

Epi, with all due respect:

You said..."Had you posted a different thread to discuss some of your very valid points I would have been happy to engage, although probably not on the 11th. I actually agree with much of your sentiments, but on this particular thread, on that particular day, I feel it was inappropriate.

My first post was not until later in the day on the 12th. I saw this thread and I said nothing for a day and a half. Then this is what I started with:

****Posted by silversword 9A (My Page)
on Thu, Sep 12, 13 at 14:41 ***

First, no ones feelings are more valid than another's. It doesn't matter if you were IN the WTC when the planes hit, to me, your feelings are no more important than the person who watched it on television 3,000 miles away.
Everyone deals with it and grieves in their own way. I am truly sorry for anyone who is/was affected by that day. It was AWFUL, truly horrendous. Mind-boggling and extreme.

SNIP

I went on to give my opinion that "...we took our horrific event and spread the horror to our neighbors. I do not understand those who are not ashamed of our actions. On an individual level, it's tragic. Those individuals who gave their lives without even knowing... tragic.

But no more so than anyone else's personal tragedy. Just more public...."

And I stand by that.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

Ok. I understand your feelings.

You are correct you posted on the 12th but if you saw the first response to the op (now deleted by the poster) it was posted on the 11th and was similar to yours as were a few others.

I can only speak for myself and as I said I would have been happy to participate in another thread tackling our culpability in the events and our abhorrent reaction to them when I was ready to and felt better, be it 24, 48, 72... hours or days later. On my time frame not anyone elses. I didn't feel it appropriate on this thread even though you and others did. On that we will just have to agree to disagree and I don't expect you or anyone to understand or agree with my reasons.


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

Peace


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

Peace

On that we most definitely agree!


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RE: So It's Sept. 11

Absolutely :)


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