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What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

Posted by greatgollymolly (My Page) on
Sun, Sep 16, 12 at 21:06

I know some of you hate that 1%, you know those money grubbing, evil doers. So I'm curious about something, have you thought about what will happen if all those rich corporations, take their money and leave or just close up shop because let's face it, they are zillionaires and don't need more money. Let's take it one step further, what happens if the people who make over $250,000 decide they'll stop making that much money so they can fall into a lower tax bracket or move so they don't have to give half their salary to the government? Do you know what affect these scenerio's would have on this country? Just asking, because I'm curious just how much is realized and how much is not even thought about.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

If the top one percent go to the guillotine, then the erstwhile 99th percentile becomes the so-called "1%". Promotion during wartime can be rapid.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

No one wants the top 1% eliminated - just play fair and pay their fair share of taxes.O

And if people making over $250,000 have to pay 3% more on the amounts they earn over $250,000, what's so awful about that. On $1 million, that's $22,500 more in taxes. If they quit earning over $250,000 they are giving up an awful lot - kind of like cutting off your nose to spite your face. And, if that person earns $300,000, that's another $1,500. The tax brackets, until Bush, were higher than what is proposed and our economy was humming along and growing. So, that's a silly scenario, if you ask me.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

I know some of you hate that 1%, you know those money grubbing, evil doers.

I don't know anyone here that feels that way.

If those folks "close up shop" so to speak, that will open up new opportunities for other people to "open shop". New entrepreneurs will become the suppliers to the people's demand for goods and services. Sure there will be some lag time, but eventually there will be new business owners and new 1%'ers.

what happens if the people who make over $250,000 decide they'll stop making that much money so they can fall into a lower tax bracket or move so they don't have to give half their salary to the government?

I get the feeling you don't know how a progressive tax system works. These people are NOT giving half their money to the government. The top tax bracket is ~35% and only some of their income is subject to that bracket. So you can see right away that they are not subject to a 50% tax in any way.

Here is a link that might be useful: wikipedia - good for many things


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

perhaps shakespeare should have written "First, we kill all the vulture capitalists"


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

I know how taxes work. I'm just curious of what people's thoughts are and may I add, by some of the posts I've read on this forum, there is a seathing hatred for the top 1% that's very obvious.

I don't know if they see it as fair and was just curious what will happen if there are no 1%'s at all, ever.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

the 1% will always take care of themselves..
as they have by the special rules for when their kids break the law, by changing the tax laws to benefit themselves, by exempting themselves from military service, etc.

there's much much more hatred aimed at the middle class, the lower middle class & especially the working poor.
Unless things change , we'll see much more of that hate


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

There will always be a 1% that's how the math works. As for a seething hatred of the rich.....do you have any idea of the wealth of anyone on this forum? You may just be suprised if you knew....but you don't


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

may I add, by some of the posts I've read on this forum, there is a seathing hatred for the top 1% that's very obvious.

Its an issue of paying a fair tax and not leaving the bulk of the tax burden on the rest of us to pay, while that top 1% is able to put their money in all kinds of shelters and areas, off shore accounts, foreign accounts and not have to pay anything on them.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Sun, Sep 16, 12 at 22:13

LOL.

I don't think anyone on this forum thinks of the 1% as money grubbing, evil doers. They just have a hell of a lot more money than most of us.

I doubt the 1% will leave, there's no place with taxes as low as ours, their money won't be confiscated by the government, they won't be kidnapped or murdered, their business won't be nationalized, etc. etc. etc. The US is probably the best place to be rich.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

As chase says, once the 1% leave, a new 1% takes their place - both in terms of money (math) and, as I said, in terms of business opportunities (someone will seize the new opportunities dropped by the departing people).

Again, there is no seething hatred. Most of us would just like taxes returned to the levels prior to the original Bush cuts for the upper income classes. Obviously with the hyped up war machine that we have, we need that extra income now.

While we do have some waste, I think it is generally understood that even if we cleared up all the government waste, we still would not have enough income because of defense expenses.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

I'm not sure what is meant by "that hyped up war machine." Are you talking about the military expenditures needed to keep us and our boarders safe? For me, I'd give up more of my income if it meant I can continue to sleep at night and not have to worry about my country being attacked again like it was on 9/11 or to prevent innocent men losing their lives like those recently killed. For me the #1 priority in this country is our military because without them and the weapons they need to defend us against our many enemies, we will be in big trouble. I'm not advocating war, mind you, but I don't want to see another 9/11 either.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

Yes, my hatred for the 1% just seaaaaaths.

But to answer the question about what happens if the 1% is eliminated, well that depends. It depends on how they are eliminated. Now if its quick and easy...that wont do. It has to be slooooow and painful. That's how us libs and our seathing hatred works. We need to make it painful. Dang, I just love eliminating!

-Ron-


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

Let's take it one step further, what happens if the people who make over $250,000 decide they'll stop making that much money so they can fall into a lower tax bracket or move so they don't have to give half their salary to the government? Do you know what affect these scenerio's would have on this country? Just asking, because I'm curious just how much is realized and how much is not even thought about.

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GGM, before you were on this forum, I suggested that very scenario.

I called it "Killing the Geese."

If tax rates on gains go up closer to 50% or more in the future, I think you'll see a good number of wealthy people pull out. SO many have suggested that there's no way people would not continue to earn income, even if more of it goes to the government because it is "against their interests."

Here's something a lot of liberals do not understand--there are people that will NOT always vote in their best personal interest--and that's difficult for these people to comprehend because it doesn't make sense to not vote for something that will benefit you--that's why Obama is likely to get reelected--there are too many people that stand to personally benefit from his reelection.

But there are people will vote on principle--and that's the principle that it is wrong for the government to take almost half of what a person earns while taking NOTHING from what others earn.

To that end, there are people that are indeed, planning on intentionally not earning over $200,000 or $250,000 if a couple, to avoid paying higher rates of taxes when/if they are increased. There are people that are tired of working for the government and having their money wasted and being called names for their contributions. They are sick of it, and don't need much anymore anyway, so they're reducing investments and income, and therefore taxable income.

You don't work, you don't invest, there are no golden eggs for everyone else. Let the government put that in their pipe and smoke it, because they already have almost half of the country not paying a dime in federal income taxes.
What will they do when those that are carrying the load are no longer in a position to do it? Let's see what happens with all of that spending then, how much more money can WASHINGTON print? Ask Bernacke.

Ask Obama if he is reelected.

It will indeed be interesting, because although the 1% will not be eliminated, I think a portion of them will intentionally remove themselves from that 1% and therefore reduce revenue.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

I know when people don't have the incentive to do better and have something to show for it, there is no reason to try. I know I wouldn't work to hand 50% over to the government to support the 50% of the country who sit on their butt and pay nothing. If that were the case I'd find a way to sit on my butt and get the handouts also. Alas, a socialist country.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

  • Posted by vgkg 7-Va Tidewater (My Page) on
    Sun, Sep 16, 12 at 23:33

When Ike was prez that 1% was taxed way beyond 50%, maybe they didn't leave the country because they felt obligated to pay the nation's bills, the same nation we have today that makes it possible to obtain such wealth. Where's that wealthy patriotism today? If they want to leave then screw em'.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

they'll stop making that much money so they can fall into a lower tax bracket or move so they don't have to give half their salary to the government

What on earth are you talking about? The top tax bracket in this country is 35%, and anyone in the top 1% of wealth owners (who, by the way, will never "go away" because it's a mathematical construct, not a specific group of persons) has multiple legal and quasi-legal ways to shuffle their money to avoid paying the full tax burden, not least the 15% on capital gains, a major source of wealth among the 1% top wealthiest people in our population.

there are people that are indeed, planning on intentionally not earning over $200,000 or $250,000 if a couple, to avoid paying higher rates of taxes when/if they are increased.

That's called "cutting off your nose to spite your face" and god bless 'em. They can do whatever they want with little effect -- they are the upper middle class, not the 1%, not by a very very very long stretch. You'd have to extend that effect exponentially before achieving anything like the impact the Bush tax indulgences for the 1% have had on our economy. Demi, honestly, why be so angry at the people below you on the tax register when it's the ones above you shirking their tax burden who have actually caused our collective nosedive?

As to the 1%, there is hardly a civilized country on this globe that has lower taxes on income than the US, so I hope they don't let the door hit their arse on the way out and may they enjoy their sojourn in whatever lawless dictatorship or banana republic they land in.

And for every one of them, there is an eager young entrepeneur using the advantages this country gives them to make their first million. I'm not worried about old billionaires, money always takes care of itself; I'm worried about being able to give our young folks the education and advantages they will need to succeed them.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

  • Posted by vgkg 7-Va Tidewater (My Page) on
    Sun, Sep 16, 12 at 23:51

The only portion of that 1% who would move overseas due to taxes are the same ones who already store their money overseas due to taxes.

Mitt Romney 2012
Planning Ahead!


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

Posted by circuspeanut 5 (My Page) on
Sun, Sep 16, 12 at 23:38


Demi, honestly, why be so angry at the people below you on the tax register when it's the ones above you shirking their tax burden who have actually caused our collective nosedive?

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Please explain to me exactly who is it that pays more taxes than me that is "shirking their tax burden?"

Do you know of anyone that has not filed a return that should have?

Do you know of anyone that has filed a false return?

I know of no other way to "shirk" one's tax burden.

So please, expound on this charge you just made.

In the meantime, I contend that if anyone is "shirking" anything, it's the people that don't pay a dime to contribute to federal revenue.

But, tax law is tax law and they aren't actually breaking any laws.

So, explain exactly how and who is "shirking."


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

Ninety-nine bottles of beer on the wall,
ninety-nine bottles of beer -
ya take on down
pass it around,
Ninety eight bottles of beer on the wall.

Ninety eight bottles of beer on the wall,
Ninety eight bottles of beer.....


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

the people that don't pay a dime to contribute to federal revenue

... because they barely make a dime. How does that make them more egregious, in your mind, than the billionaire with offshore accounts?


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

So let the 1% move over seas and live with their money already there. There will be another 1% to take their place.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

Yes, ladies (chase and lily) you got it: the OP is innumerate.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

Too late. They already took their ball and went home. It's'bout time they cough up money made here, and use it here. Reinvest here. PAY TAXES HERE!!!!!!!!!! I know I do my part. Time for them to do their part.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

the OP, "Eliminating the 1%" is about the most disingenuous thing I've heard in months. Uh, no, the whole Occupy movement, as well as the current disgust with the abuses of the financial system are about fairness, playing by the same rules, and the undue influence massive, concentrated wealth has on our political system and laws.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

what Robb said!

& since we're in such debt, why aren't we considering taxing wealth ( of businesses & individuals) to bail us out?


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

How much of your wealth should be taxed, roughseas? You're part of this country, right?


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

& since we're in such debt, why aren't we considering taxing wealth ( of businesses & individuals) to bail us out?

*

Oh yea, let's take what people spent a lifetime working, sacrificing and saving so they can care for themselves and building businesses and take it and apply it to the national debt to pay for those $500 toilet seats and welfare recipients smoking dope.

God help us.

That suggestion is nothing but suggesting theft.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

Well said, Circuspeanut... I concur. David, another well stated addition, and a good laugh from the song, to boot! :-)

Disingenuous, indeed.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

I just love the near constant histrionics and hanky wringing, as the country tries to move away from the budgetary disastrous Bush tax cuts, rammed through congress on a party-line vote.

Return federal tax rates on dividends and capital gains from 15 - 20%. THE SKY IS FALLING !!! ITS THEFT !!! OMG OMG !!!

Add a few - like two - percentage points on the highest earners, those earning millions a year - the stock brokers, hedge fund managers, professional sports, etc, THE SKY IS FALLING !!! ITS THEFT !!! OMG OMG !!!


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

romney didn't work for his most of his money. .. it was gifted from his dad.
paris hilton didn't work for her money.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

I have no problem with my wealth being taxed.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

Why, why. Whatever would we do? There would be no jobs if it weren't for the 1%.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

There would be no jobs if it weren't for the 1%.

Corporations are people too, my friend. Perhaps they would keep making some jobs .... And perhaps they would hire some CEOs that make more modest salaries.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

I know, David... it makes one wonder where the personal responsibility and moral obligation really are! And how is being asked to pay a fair share, that was once the norm anyway, suddenly redistribution? The hanky wringing is hilarious, if you ask me!


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

october, does that mean since they "create" the jobs, they are exempt from being taxed?

I realize it's a republican ideal, but shouldn't their profit, at least on some level, be reinvested? That is the theory, that the breaks they get and the "additoinal" wealth make it back into the cycle. Hiring more personnel, making cheaper goods, something back!


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

Ninety seven bottles of
beer on the wall,
Ninety seven bottles
of beer

Take one down
pass it around,
ninety six bottles
of beer on the wall


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

Ninety six bottles of
beer on the wall,
Ninety six bottles
of beer

Take one down
pass it around,
ninety five bottles
of beer on the wall


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

Please provide a link showing the 1% create jobs.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

Ooohhhh What a beautiful morning
Ooohhhh what a beautiful day!


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

"I realize it's a republican ideal, but shouldn't their profit, at least on some level, be reinvested? That is the theory, that the breaks they get and the "additoinal" wealth make it back into the cycle. Hiring more personnel, making cheaper goods, something back!"

----------

That's exactly what is happening and is why there has been such an increase in the size of the middle class on a global basis.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

What happens when they get out or are forced out of the game? You are seeing some of the results already. There is less money in circulation that is backed by real wealth so fiat money gets printed. Prices go up. There are fewer jobs since it requires real wealth to support jobs. There are fewer taxes available for the government to redistribute so the gov. increases tax rates and new taxes. Real wealth goes down. What full time jobs were available begin to vanish to be replaced by part time jobs that don't provide the benefits that made the original jobs more competitive. Those who depend on the gov. have too much time on their hands and require more bread and circuses which are still not enough so crime goes up. The gov. seeks new ways to confiscate real wealth to benefit its supporters. The real wealth of more and more individuals drops and more people become dependent on gov. handouts. The gov. demands more money in taxes and those who still have some real wealth reduce or stop supporting institutions such as schools, hospitals, charities, etc. and stop investing in research and new business since it no longer benefits them or simply costs too much. More jobs disappear. The gov. nationalizes industries and food production starts to falter. Work programs and "camps" begin to appear. Real wealth continues to disappear at the same time as more fiat money is printed. Prices continue to go up and it goes on and on. In the meantime criminals who were not content with the largess of the gov. have been creating enterprises that accumulate wealth that the gov. cannot transform into tax revenues. Power changes hands, many times.

I've left out a bunch of possibilities but that is one logical progression. There are many systems in play that could wreck our house of cards. If we are lucky we will not have a repeat of such minor inconveniences as the French or Russian revolutions or the massive death tolls of some types of government but I don't have much faith in human memory or benevolence when real wealth that is actually used no longer exists.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

That's exactly what is happening and is why there has been such an increase in the size of the middle class on a global basis.

And right now, corporate America is sitting on two trillion in cash, not investing it because there isn't the demand for more goods, which means that the wealth 'wheel' or 'fountain' is stuck.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

we boomed when the top tax rate was over 90%.

we sink now because the rich can hoard their wealth. tax them & they will invest to protect their wealth.
let them keep it with no/low taxes & they'll continue to hoard.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

Sorry no link. It's a farce. But I didn't make it up.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

david says that wealth is not being circulated due to lack in demand for products and services.

sleepless says that wealth is not being circulated because the 1% have pulled back. Not sure "why" she thinks they have pulled back. Is it indeed because of lack of demand (same as david)?

It can indeed be a downward spiral in a recession.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

Well, France is slapping a 75% tax increase on people earning more than a million euros a year. Coincidently, the wealthiest guy in France applied for duel Belgian/French citizenship. There was some speculation that he'd done so to avoid taxes, but he quickly squashed that -

"
Mr Arnault is the head of luxury goods giant LVMH, and his personal fortune has been put at $US41 billion by Forbes magazine.

He has denied the move to seek Belgian nationality means he will seek tax exile.

"I am and will remain a tax resident in France and in this regard I will, like all French people, fulfil my fiscal obligations," the world's fourth-richest man said.

"Our country must count on everyone to do their bit to face a deep economic crisis amid strict budgetary constraints," he said, adding that the bid for dual nationality was "linked to personal reasons" and began several months ago.

The AFP news agency quoted an "informed source" as saying Mr Arnault's move was linked to a "sensitive" investment project that could be eased if he acquired Belgian nationality."

I was working for a UK company back in the days of very high income taxes over 90% for the top earners, and it was fun to watch them enjoy the good live with company perks like company luxury cars and drivers, business meals, etc.

Here is a link that might be useful: link


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

I never met an investor who would stop investing because of a capital gains percentage change & I've been investing since I was a teenager when long term capital gains were taxed at 25% & an investor still made money & this shorting lunacy was frowned upon as a practice of novices & gamblers. ( That's a conservative investor)
The Original question has an element of Ray Bradburry to it as it is more cudgel device than anything else.
Some Dems would return to a Clinton era tax code some a Reagan era tax code they do not eliminate any percentage of an investing, retired or earning population so the original question comes off as a device.

There are some of us who could even envision a return to the rarefied times of an Eisenhower tax code.

Mr Romney loves his father & cites him so often the man managed to make a little bundle during the days when someone like him paid a maximum 27.5% - 36.5% on long term capital gains.

Daddy with deductions tax returns showed that he made $2,972,923.58 over one year, and the total taxes he paid were $1,099,555.18, according to the St. Joseph Gazette.

We had a one percent then! We had a very large middle class then! I read these posts on here every now & then about the good old days & a return to US simplicity. You guys always leave out the tax codes then.

If the banks are paying 1% & they are barely just doing that of course I'd pay 25% on a long term gain that's currently earning me 13.7% or a higher percentage tax on a short term gain that's earning 17.9%. Those are real figures form a real history not some What's gonna happen when you folks eat all the rich people.
In the case of Junior he has more than enough socked away either under he or Ann's names in more countries than you can shakea stick at.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

When the OP says this:

what happens if the people who make over $250,000 decide they'll stop making that much money so they can fall into a lower tax bracket

There's really no point in going any further. It shows clearly they have no idea how taxes work (even though they later claim they do).

Let's see...let's say I make $250,000 right now. My boss wants to give me a raise. OMG, no you cannot give me a raise, I'll have less money because I'll have to give more the government!!!! If my employee thought that way, I'd rethink wanting to give them that raise. Not as intelligent as I thought they were.

PLEASE!!!! Give me the raise and I'll pay a higher percent of taxes ON THE PART OVER $250,000. NOT THE ENTIRE AMOUNT. So, I still get MORE money. Not LESS money.

Why is this so hard to understand????


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

Bu bu bu..... Job Creators!!!! Must worship Job Creators!!!!

/so where are the freakin' jobs after a decade of the lowest taxes in recent history and what is likely the most massive transfer of wealth into the hands of the uber-wealthy in all of history?


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

But, David, the answer is so obvious. It's that bad man Obama's fault.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

I don't understand it either, Jill. And I don't understand the animosity held toward those who earn so little that they are not required to pay in, or get refunds back. That little bit helps keep that family afloat.

A nation cannot operate without revenue AND controlled spending. It's that simple. So, when we see an Administration come in and cut taxes and regulations, and spend money like water on pet projects, subsidies, and defense... it makes sense that there will eventually be a falling toward earth. It can't be otherwise.

We got along fine before tax cuts... why would expiring those cause such a total panic? It makes little sense... unless you take ethics and greed into account.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

Did I read Romney required Ryan to release ten years of HIS returns? Hmmm. When you're(Romney ) so far above the peons he wants to govern, it doesn't apply.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Mon, Sep 17, 12 at 12:08

The only jobs the 1% create are jobs for tax attorneys, here and abroad. The more they have, the more they want.

Otherwise, they don't need, or want, to create jobs. The businesses that provide their wealth are downsizing, not creating jobs, jobs don't help the bottom line, jobs eat up profits.

Since the bulk of their wealth is already off-shore, we would probably hardly notice their departure, except for the McMansions sitting empty.

But they won't leave.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

LOL,too true momj47


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

"When Ike was prez that 1% was taxed way beyond 50%, maybe they didn't leave the country because they felt obligated to pay the nation's bills, the same nation we have today that makes it possible to obtain such wealth."

When Ike was president, government protected our borders. We did not have an imported and often very dangerous underclass. Americans did not have to "share" their jobs with illegal aliens. Our government did not transfer US taxpayer money to feed, house and provide free medical care to illegal aliens. We sent them home with no apologies. They were not our responsibility. Unlike today, government did not force the middle class to pay higher taxes so that the wealthy people in Mexico could enjoy lower taxes. And when Ike was president, we did not exclude HALF of the country from their obligation to help support the federal government. Today's Democrats are impoverishing American citizens in order to enrich illegals, and to "buy" votes with taxpayer money. It's just that simple. Democrats have been selling the American people out since the "Great Society." It's what they do best.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

Hate to burst your bubble, but when Ike was President, there was the full-fledged Brasero program, with truckloads and boatloads of Mexicans coming to work all over the country. Official policy in support of bringing in foreign labor.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

Nikoleta, Here's a short history on your favorite topic. Noyr how bad illegal immigration was under your man Eisenhower.

Here is a link that might be useful: Illegal immigration to us and under eisenhower


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

They were not allowed to come in illegally and then given citizenship ahead of those who applied legally. We also had a growth economy. We had very strict immigration rules at that time.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

Jodik, I don't think you should be mentioning "pet projects" when your guy Obama wasted millions of our money investing in green energy that went belly up. Don't even get me started on his pet projects and subsidies either. Can anyone say "stimulus?" That "stimulus package" was a bigger bomb than any war head we have.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

molly, you have most of your facts wrong. Try googling the topic and read from a number of non-partisan sources--so you actually know what you are talking about.

By the way, Fox and Limbaugh do not count as "non-partisan" sources--so you will have to expand you horizons if you want a more accurate view.

Kate


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

Green energy is good thing, unlike completely sucking the planet dry of all its fossil fuels, and then using them without restraint or regulation to pollute our already unstable atmosphere.

Everyone should know by now that the stimulus did work, and would have worked even better had it been larger. This is common knowledge.

Since a President doesn't rule or have powers quite like a dictator, much of what the extreme right believes doesn't make much sense. Obama is still held by the limited amount of power he has, and must play the games of Washington's mine field like any other Democrat who truly would like to change things in a progressive manner. But then, Obama never claimed to be liberal, and sits somewhere in the area of moderate.

There seems to be a bit of a disconnect between what actually went down, and what some people want to think went down. History is not fiction, and one cannot discard the parts one is unhappy about or wishes to forget.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

Kate's right.

I will add, there is no such thing as non-partisan reporting. You have to read both sides of the aisle to get a whole picture. And then some. You'll notice, I posted an Al-Jazeera website on the Middle East thread last week. Hardly partisan!


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

Can anyone say "stimulus?" That "stimulus package" was a bigger bomb than any war head we have.

GGM, you are really embarrasing yourself. First the post that shows you clearly do not understand how the tax code works, and now this.

Do some reading. Really. It's good to be informed.

Here is a link that might be useful: Don�t Tell Anyone, but the Stimulus Worked


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

The stimulus package worse bomb than any war? I guess I just have a totally different perspective on the value of thousands and thousands of human lives, the maiming and destruction of thousands more and the trillions in cost to the National debt.

The wars have costs trillions more than the stimulus and gained what? I know what decision I would make. I'd much rather waste my money on an attempt to stimulate the economy than a sure fire death sentence for my fellow citizens.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

GGM, Head on over to the Dept of Energy's website and read about ARPA-E projects. Our government is funding lots of great and innovative research projects.

Here is a link that might be useful: ARPA-E


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

People that have jobs are working many more hours per week than ever. If some of that money ($2 trillion) was used to hire more people so that others can spend time with their loved ones, we would have more money in circulation, fewer unemployed and an economy that isn't in the dumpster. CEOs earn the greater part of their income in company stock so they have no incentive to detract from the bottom line by hiring more employees.

But, those 1% that have to trump all the other 1%ers in accumulating wealth and showing it off (is that why Mitt wanted a car elevator? - I'd never heard of such a thing for a house.) will never share any of that wealth. Too much ego at stake, I guess.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

Understand two simple things:

It is not about starting class warfare but ending it, and....

I don't care how much money anybody has....just dont use it to buy my government because I can't compete.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

"Hate to burst your bubble, but when Ike was President, there was the full-fledged Brasero program, with truckloads and boatloads of Mexicans coming to work all over the country. Official policy in support of bringing in foreign labor."

As if out of work Americans are so stupid as to equate the Bracero program of LEGAL, TEMPORARY work in the US, with illegal immigration.

White working class males know full well how much Democrats despise them, and they just keep proving it. Out of work Americans know Obama promised work permits to illegal aliens. They know Obama is forcing citizens to compete for jobs in their own country against illegal aliens. They know Democrats approve.

That's all unemployed Americans need to remember in November. Given a choice, Democrats will always take sides against their own citizens.

Had enough?


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

White working class males know full well how much Democrats despise them, and they just keep proving it.

The two in my house are voting for Obama - AGAIN.

And I saw plenty of them in the DNC convention audience.

Obama has a sensible approach to immigration - be tough on those that need toughness and be reasonable with those that are not here of their own doing. He has deported more illegal immigrants than his predecessor.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

White working class males know full well how much Democrats despise them, and they just keep proving it.

Absolute bunk(er) mentality.

They know Obama is forcing citizens to compete for jobs in their own country against illegal aliens. They know Democrats approve.

I know I'm being disrespectful, attacking you and all but, what planet did you just come from? Where do you come up with such ideas? This nonsense could have come from at least a half-dozen other posters on here. I just shake my head in disbelief.

-Ron-


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

Nik when Ike was president NY was full of illegal Irish immigrants as was Boston they skipped in & outta Canada. He was'nt too concerned about them.
He certainly did send thousands of Mexicans back across the border in order to defend the US migrant workers jobs in the South West.
It was a jobs issue not a security issue (though I am in favor of strong borders & orderly immigration)
It really doesn't seem to matter much about the growth of the 1% they have grown in countries like the Netherlands & Sweden with high tax rates & in the US they have grown even more with the artificial tax cuts. Artificial in the sense that the countries actual top rate is still 39% we have just been on an extended holiday from that.
It's a a great fantasy that any thing close to a balanced budget won't require, more revue & it certainly can not be achieved with cuts as Mr Romney pointed out recently,
He did declare that big cuts to Gubmint spening means big loss of jobs (hoo ha there's an equation there) there's wait a minute there's a connection oh ah wait between jobs & government spending. Must be true it was Romney's assertion for an hour at least!


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Mon, Sep 17, 12 at 17:11

Yeah, but they're really posting it so there's more to deal with than shaking your head will affect. The country does in fact have millions of knuckleheads within its borders.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

this is especially for our fellow poster named nikoleta.

Get the Facts about Illegal Immigration
History of Illegal Immigration in U.S.

A Brief History of Illegal Immigration in the United States

"We should honor every legal immigrant here, working hard to become a new citizen. But we are also a nation of laws."
President Bill Clinton, State of the Union Address, January 23, 1996

Illegal immigration has long been a problem in the United States, especially since the latter half of the twentieth century.

The origins of illegal immigration date to the late nineteenth century. In 1875, a federal law was passed which prohibited entry of convicts and prostitutes. In 1882 President Chester A. Arthur banned almost all Chinese immigration to the United States, and shortly thereafter barred paupers, criminals and the mentally ill from entering. Although this affected only a small percentage of immigrants, there were now distinctions between legal and illegal immigration. Before this, immigration was barely regulated.

Ellis Island, the New York portal for immigrants, opened in 1892 and became the nation�s premier federal immigration station. New arrivals were required to prove their identities, answer a series of questions, find a friend or relative who could vouch for them, and were scanned for physical ailments. When it ended operation in 1954, Ellis Island had processed over 12 million legal immigrants.

During the large wave of immigration from 1881 to 1920, nearly 23� million immigrants poured into the United States from all over the world. In 1921, Congress passed a Quota Law that reduced immigration to 357,000 a year and limited the number of immigrants from any one country. In 1924 immigration was reduced further to 160,000 a year, and in 1929, immigration was cut to 157,000 and quotas were again reset based on national origins in the 1920 U.S. Census. The rationale was that these laws would ensure the existing ethnic composition of the country and help assimilate the 15 million southern and eastern Europeans who had entered the previous forty years.

However, the door was left open for Mexicans (who even then were desired by employers for their cheap labor) and northern Europeans. As history would show, this legal immigration led to illegal immigration and foreshadowed today�s debate on these topics. During the 1920s illegal immigration was the subject of heated Congressional debates. Edward H. Dowell, vice-president of the California Federation of Labor, testified before the U.S. Senate Committee on Immigration in February of 1928 about the burden of the unrestricted flow of Mexicans on the state�s taxpayers, prisons, hospitals and American workers� wages. He estimated that while 67,000 Mexicans entered the U.S. legally the prior year, many times that number entered illegally.

Furthermore, a Los Angeles Times story from April 1926 noted that many of the ranch workers in California�s Imperial Valley entered the U.S. illegally without passing the (then) literacy test and did not pay the $18 entrance fee. In February of 1929, the U.S. House Immigration Committee heard testimony from government officials about problems at the border with both Canada and Mexico, including steps that were taken to eliminate the "visa mill" at Juarez (opposite El Paso), where were found "the most lax conditions imaginable in connection with inspection of persons wishing to enter the United States." Visas were required for legal residency.

Immigration dropped sharply during the lean years of the Great Depression. After the stock market crashed in 1929, the U.S. tightened visa rules which markedly reduced Mexican immigration. Local, state and federal government officials debated what to do with those already here. Some Mexicans repatriated themselves either voluntarily or under pressure from local welfare officials. Others were deported. Eventually between about 500,000 to 1,000,000 Mexicans left the United States between 1929 and 1939. This was due to deportation, as well as other factors such as the threat of deportation and acute unemployment.

This repatriation began during President Herbert Hoover�s administration and reached its peak in the early 1930s. It also applied to all alien groups, not just Mexicans. Hoover believed they were taking jobs from Americans, and endorsed a vigorous effort to reduce legal and illegal entries and expel "undesirable aliens." Deportations and repatriations of Mexicans and others decreased (along with legal immigration) during President Franklin Roosevelt�s administration, during the Great Depression, but did not end. In July 1935, for example, Roosevelt ordered a large deportation of alien criminals (such as mail robbers), but exempted Mexican and Canadian criminals due to the fear that they would sneak back in.

Today�s high level of illegal immigration originated during the war years of the early 1940s. Labor shortages caused the federal government to set up a program to import Mexican laborers to work temporarily in agriculture, primary in the Southwest. This was called the Bracero Program. The goal was to import foreign workers (originally thought to number in the hundreds) during agricultural harvest and then encourage them to go home.

Over the next two decades about 4.8 million Mexican workers came into the country and provided cheap labor to many U.S. employers. Although braceros were supposed to be hired only if an adequate number of Americans could not be found, employers preferred the foreign workers who were willing to work for lesser wages. The program finally ended in 1964 due to complaints from unions and Mexican-Americans that these foreigners were taking jobs from them. Not surprisingly, many of the former braceros reentered and worked in the U.S. illegally -- many for the same employers. Illegal immigration increased greatly during the years of the supposed "temporary work" Bracero Program. The Los Angeles Times reported in May 1950 that 21,000 Mexican nationals had "flooded across Mexican border into the United States during April" and complained about the overworked, understaffed border patrolmen and the "the endless wave of line jumpers, unprecedented in the nation�s history." The argument about jobs "Americans won�t do" was recited by an employer, while the authorities stressed the need to enforce the law.

During President Dwight D. Eisenhower�s first term, it was estimated that illegal Mexican border crossings had grown to about 1 million. Such a massive illegal workforce had a devastating impact on the wages of American workers. Eisenhower, concerned about corruption that resulted from the profits of illegal labor, took decisive action. In 1954 he appointed General Joseph Swing to head the Immigration and Naturalization Service. Shortly thereafter, "Operation Wetback" was launched. With only 1,075 Border Patrol agents, tens of thousands of illegal aliens were caught and sent back deep into Mexico. Hundreds of thousands more returned to their homeland voluntarily. Illegal immigration had dropped 95% by the end of the 1950s.

But it was not to last, as seen in prior decades, after the 1965 Immigration Act passed, while legal immigration increased sharply, illegal immigration rose right along with it. As the Center for Immigration Studies noted, this increased immigration in part because Congress "shifted the legal preference system to family relations and away from employment needs and immigrant ability." Senator Edward Kennedy said at the time: "The bill will not flood our cities with immigrants. It will not upset the ethnic mix of our society." However, this bill spurred "chain migration" which fueled illegal immigration, along with a sense of entitlement amongst illegal immigrants. In subsequent decades, Mexico has become the primary source country of both legal and illegal immigration.

Many illegal aliens also use the lure of "birthright citizenship," (a/k/a "anchor babies") to circumvent U.S. immigration laws and gain permanent residency, if not citizenship. This is a misinterpretation of the 14th Amendment to the Constitution that grants U.S. citizenship on those born on American soil, including children of illegal aliens. Illegal immigrants know that the odds are low that U.S. immigration authorities will deport them, if they have a child who is an American citizen (and who as a bonus also qualifies for taxpayer-funded benefits).

Since the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965, Congress has passed seven amnesties:

1. Immigration and Reform Control Act (IRCA), 1986: A blanket amnesty for over 2.7 million illegal aliens

2. Section 245(i) Amnesty, 1994: A temporary rolling amnesty for 578,000 illegal aliens

3. Section 245(i) Extension Amnesty, 1997: An extension of the rolling amnesty created in 1994

4. Nicaraguan Adjustment and Central American Relief Act (NACARA) Amnesty, 1997: An amnesty for close to one million illegal aliens from Central America

5. Haitian Refugee Immigration Fairness Act Amnesty (HRIFA), 1998: An amnesty for 125,000 illegal aliens from Haiti

6. Late Amnesty, 2000: An amnesty for some illegal aliens who claim they should have been amnestied under the 1986 IRCA amnesty, an estimated 400,000 illegal aliens

7. LIFE Act Amnesty, 2000: A reinstatement of the rolling Section 245(i) amnesty, an estimated 900,000 illegal aliens

The largest of these amnesties was the 1986 Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA) which amnestied about 3 million illegal aliens. This law was supposed to be a compromise -- an attempt to finally limit illegal immigration through strengthened border security and increased immigration enforcement against employers -- combined with amnesty for the millions of illegal workers in the United States. Illegal immigrants who had resided in the U.S. for five years and met other conditions received temporary legal status, which could be later upgraded to citizenship.

President Ronald Reagan approved this "path to citizenship" amnesty due to what was believed to be a relatively small illegal immigrant population. Unlike many current politicians and amnesty proponents, Reagan called this what it was: amnesty. Unfortunately, there was widespread document fraud and the number of illegal aliens seeking amnesty far exceeded expectations. Most importantly, there was no political will to enforce the law against employers. The 1986 IRCA amnesty failed and actually led to millions of more people entering the United States illegally.

While President Bill Clinton made some efforts to combat illegal immigration during the 1990s, the problem remained. In 1996 the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 was passed. Still, leaders from Central American and Caribbean nations relied heavily on untaxed remittances sent back to their countries from the United States, and worried that Clinton would support mass deportations. While at least paying lip service to enforcement of laws, Clinton assured these leaders that there would be no mass deportations. There were about 7 million illegal aliens residing in the U.S. when he left office.

The eight years of President George W. Bush�s administration saw a marked increase in illegal immigration and a drop in immigration enforcement throughout much of his tenure. For example, the number of illegal aliens arrested in workplace cases fell from nearly 3,000 in 1999 to 445 in 2003, with the number of criminal cases against employers during this period falling from 182 to four. Not surprisingly, by 2005, there were an estimated 10-20 million illegal aliens living in the United States. Even at the end of 2007 after the Bush administration�s enforcement crackdown had been underway; only 92 criminal arrests of employers had taken place, in an economy that, according to the Washington Post, includes 6 million businesses that employ more than 7 million illegal foreign workers.

Despite the failure of past amnesties and the fact that these increase illegal immigration, Bush repeatedly pushed mass legalization (amnesty) schemes for illegal immigrants using the well-worn line that they "are doing jobs Americans will not" or "are not" doing. One scheme was the Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act 2007 which was defeated by widespread popular opposition.

Today, over 1 million immigrants enter our country legally per year, while the illegal alien population grows by about 500,000 per year. Most of those who violate our borders and enter illegally come from Mexico and other Latin American countries. Only about 6 percent of the illegals come from Canada and Europe. Close to half of all illegal immigrants now residing in the U.S. did not enter illegally but rather overstayed their visas. Just as the federal government has historically failed to secure its borders, it has concurrently failed to closely monitor visa holders.

About 12-20 million illegal aliens currently reside in the United States. California has more illegals than any other state, at about 2.4 million. Others states with high illegal alien populations include Texas, Florida and New York, although many states are now impacted.

Americans of all backgrounds are still seriously concerned about the negative impact of illegal immigration, such as with the number of bankrupted hospitals, overcrowded schools, and increased crime. Taxpayers pay dearly for this, illustrating the high cost of so-called "cheap labor" for some unscrupulous employers and their political allies who for decades have watered down immigration laws. For example, in California alone, as of 2004 the net cost of illegal immigration to taxpayers is estimated to be nearly $9 billion annually.

Despite Americans� opposition to illegal immigration and amnesty, open border advocates are pressuring President Barack Obama to pass yet another mass amnesty for illegal aliens. These special interests and their allies in the mainstream media continually attempt to re frame the debate away from the core issues (e.g., illegality, sovereignty, overpopulation, fiscal costs), and redefine the terms used in the debate. The most common euphemisms for amnesty used by the open-border lobby are: "comprehensive immigration reform," "pathway to citizenship," "earned legalization," "guest" or "temporary worker plan," and bringing "undocumented immigrants" "out of the shadows." Citizens concerned about illegal immigration should also be aware that pro-illegal alien advocates often offer the false choice between either mass deportation or mass amnesty. They say that since we can�t "round up and deport 12 million people" we have to provide them with a "pathway to citizenship" (i.e. amnesty).

However, there is a common sense, humane and cost-effective way to solve the problem of illegal immigration, without resorting to either mass deportation or amnesty. This is called "attrition through enforcement" wherein if our existing immigration laws are consistently enforced and jobs cut off, the number of illegal aliens will return to their home countries over time. This middle-ground strategy is endorsed by real immigration reform groups such as ALIPAC and NumbersUSA.

Acknowledgements: Special thanks to NumbersUSA for the history of amnesties.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

Ron, there's a lot of head shaking going on within the public sector these days... some of the thoughts and ideas put forth are so ludicrous, and contain such misinformation that it makes jaws drop and heads shake. Sometimes, one simply doesn't know how to respond.

Facts and actual statistics just fly away on the breeze, I guess.

How many times does it need to be said that President Obama has deported many more illegal aliens than his predecessor before everyone truly believes it? It's a fact, a vetted fact, yet some people roll right over it and go for fallacy, instead. Go figure. Fallacy must taste better, or something.

(Shaking my head...)


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

Understand two simple things:

It is not about starting class warfare but ending it, and....

I don't care how much money anybody has....just dont use it to buy my government because I can't compete.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

  • Posted by vgkg 7-Va Tidewater (My Page) on
    Mon, Sep 17, 12 at 17:37

Still wondering how very high taxes and a decent economy during Ike's time is related to illegal immigrants?

Mitt Romney 2012
"Squirrel!"


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

It's the new GOP slogan -- they don't care about the facts. I mean, they came out and said it. They don't listen to fact checkers. And Peter King (R-NY) just said it again today! It seems to be spreading amoung the GOP. We don't need no stikining facts! Especially those that don't match our agenda. I knew they always felt this way, but the fact they think it's OK to say it is strange to me.

Here is a link that might be useful: The always crazy Peter King


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

What if 75% of the 99% were eliminated ? What would the 1% do? Empty their own chamber pots and pick there own vegetables or string their own electric lines. Drive their own trucks and unload ships?

I feel the 1% would be in far more trouble in figuring out how to clean their own rumps then the 99% would be if they left.

If the 1% left the sucking sound of the 99% moving into their place would sound like a tornado.

Greed & gluttony are always a human trait, but for the very large elite pouring a class of wine or cleaning the swimming pool is like piloting a space shuttle to the moon.


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

greatgollymolly,
Nature abhors a vacuum!


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RE: What happens if the 1% is eliminated?

Even the Proletariat of The masses where all were nominally equal they had a shifting market based street economy based on toilet paper, porn & denim. Presto change when they switched or if your poetic when the wall fell Billionaires popped up like mushrooms on rotting wood "the suggestion that they worked harder for it would be ludicrous when examined for more than 20 minutes" it's always a slug fest in the end after all.


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