Return to the Hot Topics Forum | Post a Follow-Up

 o
Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

Posted by labrea 7NYC (My Page) on
Sat, Sep 1, 12 at 21:51

Archbishop Desmond Tutu has called for Tony Blair and George Bush to be hauled before the international criminal court in The Hague and delivered a damning critique of the physical and moral devastation caused by the Iraq war.

Tutu, a Nobel peace prizewinner and hero of the anti-apartheid movement, accuses the former British and US leaders of lying about weapons of mass destruction and says the invasion left the world more destabilised and divided "than any other conflict in history".

I think there is probable cause but it ain't going to happen!
132,000 Civilian deaths should count for something somewhere!

Here is a link that might be useful: Dead reckoning


Follow-Up Postings:

 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

He forgot john Howard. He should be there too!
"Preemptive strikes" hrmmmph


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

I will forever thankful that Canada refused to assist the US in that unjustified invasion that caused death and injury to untold thousands never mind the cost to the American taxpayer......but somehow that gets lost in people minds. It's like it's all OK, no big deal......not like voter id and tax cuts for the wealthy.....now that's important.


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

Ok Canada & Australia heard from, Pam I agree.


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

Besides Tony Blair and George W. Bush, how about Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld as well?


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

I also think they should be making restitution to the government they defrauded by dragging us into a war based on fantasy.


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

I think there is probable cause but it ain't going to happen!

Unfortunately, I agree. However, I don't believe Dubya or Cheney should take any trips abroad, if they know what's good for them.

nancy-- agreed. (believe that???)


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

I totally agree with all of them being tried at the Hague. I've said that for years. It'll never happen.


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

Absolutely, Nancy... Cheney and Rumsfeld were the puppeteers running the show, after all. I think there's a lot there the public would not approve of should they find out. Just the fact that they lied about weapons of mass destruction, added in with some decent armed forces testimony, should be enough to start a trial... personally, I think they deserve some time behind bars... along with those responsible for the Wall Street/real estate crash that required huge amounts to keep afloat, and that generations will be paying for.

It might be one of the topics no one wants to discuss... but it beats remodeling and dog talk, the former of which already has a forum, and the latter which we go round and round with on a semi-regular basis, no offense.

How about the fact that the Midwest finally got some decent, drenching rains and storms...


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

Yes, of course, all four should be tried and made to pay restitution, big-time. It ain't gonna happen, ever. Too much time has passed. People forget too quickly. History will just keep on repeating itself over and over again, unfortunately....


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

Who was Running Cheney & Rumsfeld their site is still up Project for a new American Century or now the Russia was bankrupted lets drive the US so far into debt they will have to change or make a fear driven compelling case for change.
Hey maybe drop a few amendments along with some programs!~


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

  • Posted by vgkg 7-Va Tidewater (My Page) on
    Sun, Sep 2, 12 at 10:18

Don't forget to add to the trial the whole package of Bush's legal team who redefined torture as enhanced interrogation. Just another fine example of the "change" the new republicans have in store for our nation.


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

Well, twisting words is what they're best at, I guess, Vgkg. "Enhanced" makes it sound so much nicer...


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

Turns out "freedom fries" were exactly that: Freedom Fries.

I also think they should be making restitution to the government they defrauded by dragging us into a war based on fantasy.

Not only these 4 but everyone who profited. Start with Halliburton.


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

War-crime trials are for the leaders of militarily and soundly defeated regimes. Does that apply to the US and Britain?


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

I pretty much expect that Halliburton is why we went there in the first place-money to be made and for the compliant military-rank. That Military industrial complex that Ike warned us to beware of..I think life isnt good enough...but I dont believe in capital punishment-darn.


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

I don't think there will of should be a trial for Bush and Co.

I do think that there should be a full Congressional investigation which focuses in on the march to war in Iraq.

I agree with those who believe that George W Bush wanted Saddam Hussein pre 9/11 because he had threatened to have his father assassinated and because it was , at least in his mind, wrapping up a major chapter of his father's Presidency.

Immediately after 9/11, Bush saw the opportunity to get Saddam and at the same time, to make it look like we were retaliating against those hated Muslims who hijacked planes and hit our Trade Towers and Pentagon. At the same time this diverted the media and public away from focusing oin on Bush's negligence, and that of all those surrounding him, before the largest attack on our country in its history.

The 9/111 Commission did not go far enough in gaining sworn testimony from Bush and his henchmen and henchwoman, Con. Rice.
I'd like to see some competent trial lawyers have a go at asking question to all of them to tear down the walls that they built around Bush.
He is guilty of causing tens of needless deaths including thousands of our own troops. Without the Iraq War, Saddam Hussein would have been just another dictator taken down in the Arab Spring by his own people.


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

Excuse me chase, you are wrong, very wrong about Canada's 'non-involvement' in the Iraqi war. Canada was just sneakier about it.

Here is a link that might be useful: commonground


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

"I will forever thankful that Canada refused to assist the US in that unjustified invasion,"

That's what Canada did publicly to appease the voters. But to facilitate Bush's oil war, we went to war in Afghanistan. I'm not sure our hands are as clean here as the voters wanted, Chase.
But I'd like to seem them tried. I don't believe democracy is possible under any other circumstances. The rich and the powerful must be held accountable for their actions.


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

Sorry, I'd like to see them tried. And found guilty. Otherwise, we will slip further and further into this strange new world order, which seems to be a combination of technology, corporatism and feudalism.


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

As I was reading Halliburton popped up as the main thing they do is oil and then up they come. They are so huge that the various offshoots are just there to dabble in war and police actions that will likely come home to ply their trade. Militant mercenary entities is just what the new regime will need when they are in power and the population begins to realize en mass. All of the above mentioned need to be brought to account and likely more that are hiding out.


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

Did anyone read the link I provided?

There were 46 countries that supported the US in it's war on Iraq. There were an additional 15 countries who supported the war, without publically admitting they did, the leader being Canada who, among other atrosities, provided financial support to the Iraq ministry, which was caught running torture centers and working with death squads that executed more than 1000 people per month in Baghdad during the summer of 06.

Please don't allow yourselves to stop with Bush and Blair.


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

It always amazes me... throughout history, the USA has armed and helped those factions elsewhere that could bring our biggest corporations and/or politicians... which are often one and the same... closer to the goal of either more wealth, more power, or better positioning for fossil fuels.

And then, when those factions see what we want for the little we give them, they balk... as any normal businessman would... and suddenly our military is arming the opposing side, or causing a coup, or going into "police action" mode... taking out the chess players we no longer want.

That some people can't see the US, and their wealthy secret cohorts, playing the globe like a giant game of chess astounds me...


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

Since it's not possible to know what was in Blair and/or Bush's minds, I don't see how it would be possible to prove they participated in a "war crime". It would have to be proved that they went in not believing that the action was "justified by military or civilian necessity".

How would you do that?


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

Since it's not possible to know what was in Blair and/or Bush's minds,

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Avenge Daddy
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

lavender, one of the first posts on this thread was mine adding the then Australian PM to the list of those who should be tried.


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

Funny, Bill! I didn't realize Bush & Blair are brothers.


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

Please don't allow yourselves to stop with Bush and Blair.

It's a good start.

Others are certainly cuplable but where did they get the information that led them to agree to participate? Was it from the US or other sources? What were their reasons for agreeing? Was it because they thought there was a valid threat or another reason? Was there any incentives to participate? Were there any threats if they didn't (not necessarily violent but perhaps some funding withheld, support withheld, etc.). I am sure each country had their own varied reasons. What they were is important.

Who were the ring leaders? We know that Bush/Cheney dupped the American public. Why not other countries as well?

Starting with the instigators, Bush/Cheney, would be a fine beginning. All or at least many facts would come out in a trial. Then we see what falls out in the wash and we can go from there. This was not a simple scenario.


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

Posted by epiphyticlvr 10 (My Page) on Mon, Sep 3, 12 at 22:01

"Who were the ring leaders? We know that Bush/Cheney dupped the American public."

For the sake of discussion, let's say you're right about that. Who duped Bush/Cheney?

"All or at least many facts would come out in a trial."

Trial? Good luck with that. Don't you think an investigation would come first?


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

"For the sake of discussion, let's say you're right about that. Who duped Bush/Cheney?"

The Downing Street memo stated that the intelligence community was being pressured to find a reason to go to war with Iraq. Bush and Blair had already agreed to go to war no matter what the inspectors found, and wanted intelligence that would support thier foregone conclusion.

This is well trod ground, the memo was leaked around 6 or 7 years ago.


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

Trial? Good luck with that. Don't you think an investigation would come first?

Elvis, don't start disecting my posts with your nonsense. Your games grew old long. It isn't cute.
HT for Dummies: Read the title of the thread.

Who duped Bush/Cheney?

If you don't know any history or have any knowledge of this topic then why are you "particiating" (I use that term loosely) on this thread?


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

Elvis told us she wasn't following any politics or obviously, anything around the issue of politics for the eight years before joining up in HT, so I guess she missed that whole mess and thus, can't have much to say about it.

Exactly, TxanG. Anyone who was following politics or that issue remembers the disclosure of this information quite clearly. It proved the deliberate scerwing of all the American people, regardless of party affiliation.

I agree with a great part of what Heri stated.

If we try Bush, we will never again have a President who might need to do something to protect this country and do so without fear of half the country gunning at all times to try to convict him of crimes. Taking these men to trial would set a precedent that would, imo, in the long run do far more harm than good.

IMO, this is part of what we must accept when we vote someone as the leader of the country. That is why we must be SO careful with our vote.

Somebody who loves war, profits from war, makes his political bones on war, runs for the next election on the face of his taking us to war, supports the entire defense dept. as it's structured today and talks about going to war with a middle eastern country when he is not the president and is only running for office -

needs to be weeded out as a contender to being the leader of this country.

I mean, such men blather on about going to war without even having the necessary and full information about the situation, but are eager to talk about sending the troops and thus wrapping himself up for display of patriotism with the dead bodies of the American soldiers for whom he will order to go to war.

We don't need nor should we want 'leaders' like that.
What I do think would be perfectly acceptable is for an in depth investigation of the path taken to that war, all by a group of experts from all over the world - experts agreed upon by all parties involved, and then make those findings public. And if Blair and Bush AND Cheney and Rumsfeld are found guilty of lying to the public for the reasons for taking all those to war, world censure and national censure of each and all countries involved, naming names and lies.

And a world censure of his time in office if negative findings are decided, to remain in all history books ever written about the war, especially in the history books of American high school and college students.

For anyone other than Presidents or Prime Ministers (though that would be up to that other country) who made money or had investments in or gave special favors to independent contractors for whom they had been previously involved business wise, should most certainly go to jail.

And should take their new heart with them if one is in place for I would want him to remain very healthy for every jailed day in order to fully appreciate his situation.

And I'm sure that most of those young people who died and were maimed in that war, after reading the findings, would agree.


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

Who duped Bush/Cheney?

Cheney and Rumsfeld and others were working to bring the U.S. into war with Iraq. The cast of characters - predominately neoconservatives with some fellow travelers - developed and relied on a cast of shady and noncredible sources, some receiving handsome stipends such as Ahmed Chalabi and his Iraqi National Congress. Please keep in mind that many of these Bush II names are now advisors to MItt Romney.

From an interview for Col. Lawrence Wilkerson, chief of staff for Secretary of State Colin Powell.

COL. LAWRENCE WILKERSON (Ret.): What I saw was a cabal between the Vice President of the United States, Richard Cheney, and the secretary of defense, Donald Rumsfeld, on critical issues that made decisions that the bureaucracy did not know were being made...

This is the first time that so much power has been concentrated in the office of the vice president.

While the formal process was engaged -- that is to say, everyone debating and dissenting and so forth and so on -- the informal process was making the decisions.

There was a labyrinth out there of people who sopped up information, manipulated information, handed information, and built information, I think in some cases, that supplemented, augmented, helped this alternative decision-making process to realize its decisions rather than those that might have been flummoxed or stopped or halted or still in debate in the formal process...

Well, with regard to Iraq, it was centered in Undersecretary of Defense Douglas Feith's office. Other people were sprinkled throughout the government...

And so, you would get one part of the agency, the official part, if you will, with the DCI as the mouthpiece of that official part, saying, "Wait a minute. I don't think that ought to go in the president's state of the union address; that's not right. We don't have firm evidence that Iraq is seeking uranium from the country of Niger, so it shouldn't go in there."

Then you would have this dissenting body in the agency report up the chain to the vice president's office and back in it would go, into the state of the union address...

I am coming to believe that the intelligence was politicized. I'm coming to believe that there was a band centered in the Pentagon that went about politicizing that intelligence.


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

Canada certainly had an incentive to secretly partipate. War can be very lucrative, profiteering wasn't limited to Canada or Canadians.

From Common Ground article (linked);
"Depleted uranium (DU) weapons: Canada is the world�s top exporter of uranium. Our government pretends that Canada�s uranium is sold for "peaceful" purposes only, but absolutely nothing is done to stop the US from using DU in their weapons. America�s A-10 Wart Hog warplanes have fired DU munitions in Yugoslavia, Afghanistan and Iraq, while each cruise missile contains three kgs of DU ballast."

youngquinn, thank you, your forthrightness was noted.


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

What Nancy said. Plus, it is my understanding this takeover was plotted back in the 90's by certain neocons (Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, Cheney, and others) with the thought that America was increasingly using oil and thus we had better position ourselves in the world in order to control certain regimes for that purpose. Thus Halliburton, Black Hawk, et al.I learned this from reading Project for a New American Century, authored by neocons. Overthrowing a dictator was just an excuse and a diversion for controlling the country in terms of oil usage, in the long run.


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

Since the Call is from a South African Nobel Laureate a US investigation probably would'n't satisfy his call for an International Tribunal. Since there was some international complicity representatives of those nations would also need to be examined.


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

The world and Canadians have not yet caught up with the sea change in Canadian politics.
As far as culpability goes, I'm sure there is enough to share. I don't see Bush and Cheney as anyone's hapless dupes. But it's not important. They headed the government - they take the fall. That's the way it is supposed to work.


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

They headed the government - they take the fall.

They headed the government - they had a hand in manufacturing the WMD evidence - they take the fall.


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

Unfortunately, there is a credible viewpoint that no other country would take any notice of America and it's wishes were it not backed by a real threat to use its vast military power. All alliances, special relationships, economic, political and cultural ties are underpinned by that. America is feared because it is militarily powerful. To an extent, that is also why it is loved. It would be an instructive exercise to imagine how other peoples would view America were it not in that position. Would we still love you for your 'freedoms' and 'values'? Would you even have them? An American decline into a post-hegemonic position is likely to bring just the same questions that Britain's post-colonial citizenry have faced - much of it during my lifetime. We have learned with a certainty just how much our view of the peoples of the world, and theirs of us was in fact based on military dominance dressed-up as cultural 'exceptionalism'. It is a hard lesson, and we still have politicians who want to stir up old Empire pride as a right-wing power base.

Another credible view has been that it is arguably better to conduct small, swift wars against negligible opponents than to allow the threat of the old-time regional or global slaughters of the twentieth century.

It is necessary to pick your victims carefully (ie not every Third World country is a walkover), but as long as this is done you should get away with it and reap many benefits: you will be feared and therefore more able to make trade agreements; your military men will be happy; the citizenry will feel good about themselves, flags will be waved, etc. Granted, you may need to pretend to be Canadians, but that is a small price to pay.

Perhaps the best example of this has been the one successful American military operation since the Second World War - the invasion of the island of Grenada, that 'lovely little war' or, as the UK, Canada and the UN General Assembly called it 'a flagrant violation of international law.' The benefits of bringing American values to this dangerous little island soon became obvious: within eight years the town of St.George's had 118 offshore banks - one for every 64 residents. So that worked.

Perhaps America should return to that level of winnable warfare at which its military seems almost competent - pick a little Caribbean island every two years, manufacture oh, maybe a Cuban plot, a Communist mass grave or American students held hostage, set up the film crews on the beaches to capture the heart-warming images of US Marines storming ashore at prime time. Clint Eastwood might star in a movie about it - oh - he already did ? You might even get the banks to pay for it . . .

As to the OP: no, I wouldn't like to see your government or mine waste time and money on those two. As long as they are held in worldwide contempt and disgust in the case of Blair and universal ridicule in the case of Bush and never assume positions of power again, and if electorates become more sceptical of their politicians, that is probably the best that can be hoped for.

Best wishes
Jon


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

Funny, Bill! I didn't realize Bush & Blair are brothers.

Brothers in the world of the almighty dollar.


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

Altruism is apparently not a trait necessary for the job of President, Prime Minister, Dictator, Queen, Commander, Emperor, Monarch, General, etc.

They all like the money.


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

Jon, this topic has died down, but I wanted to acknowledge your well written and insightful contribution. I've read it twice and am about to go at it once again-thanks.


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

That's kind of you. However, it seems obvious that no one has any interest in anything other than politician's wives saying how much they love their wonderful spouses, and so everyone else should, too :) (Has politics really fallen this low?)

I'll come back after the November watershed, when the adults come out to play again.

Best wishes to one and all - enjoy the season!
Jon


 o
RE: Blair & Bush should be tried Do You Agree?

You too Jon!


 o Post a Follow-Up

Please Note: Only registered members are able to post messages to this forum.

    If you are a member, please log in.

    If you aren't yet a member, join now!


Return to the Hot Topics Forum

Information about Posting

  • You must be logged in to post a message. Once you are logged in, a posting window will appear at the bottom of the messages. If you are not a member, please register for an account.
  • Posting is a two-step process. Once you have composed your message, you will be taken to the preview page. You will then have a chance to review your post, make changes and upload photos.
  • After posting your message, you may need to refresh the forum page in order to see it.
  • Before posting copyrighted material, please read about Copyright and Fair Use.
  • We have a strict no-advertising policy!
  • If you would like to practice posting or uploading photos, please visit our Test forum.
  • If you need assistance, please Contact Us and we will be happy to help.


Learn more about in-text links on this page here