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"We Need Death Panels..."

Posted by bill_vincent Central Maine (billvincent@hotmail.com) on
Fri, Sep 28, 12 at 22:38

But in the pantheon of toxic issues, the famous "third rails" of American politics, none stands taller than overtly acknowledging that elderly Americans are not entitled to every conceivable medical procedure or pharmaceutical.

Former Obama Advisor Steve Rattner

Here is a link that might be useful: Steve Rattner, in his own words


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

we have death panels their called private insurance companies!


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Well, Bill, do you prefer to have the elderly kept alive indefinitely? Believe me there are machines and it can be done, but I don't think anyone would want that.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

  • Posted by vgkg 7-Va Tidewater (My Page) on
    Fri, Sep 28, 12 at 23:10

3 heart transplants and your outta there....

I was hoping they'd have perfected a memory transplant by now but my clone is way too young and I'm way too old. Come on, ya wanna live forever? Not me, 100 years max and then it's boring. Time to move on.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

There were requirements for EDD to get his transplant if he didn't meet the criteria too bad.
The Staff also had no problems reciting over & over if your not complaint with this your off the list. If your not compliant with that your off the list. If you fail to get the social workers to find a way for your post transplant meds to get covered your off the list.
Everyone who has never been through it thinks oh you just sign on the dotted line & everything is sunshine & roses & everything is taken care of all sweetness & light with medicaid & medicare.
We must have heard 40 times hey if you had private insurances we could get you shipped over to JOISEEE & you would have had a heart by now.
I hate this kind of crap!


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Everyone who has never been through it thinks oh you just sign on the dotted line & everything is sunshine & roses & everything is taken care of all sweetness & light with medicaid & medicare.

Private insurance is no better. If you watched the DNC they had a family on talking about what they had gone through with their 3 year old daughter and she was on her father's work insurance.

If ObamaCare had not kicked in her daughter would have died because they have a cap and she said after the first operation the insurance would not cover any more surgeries after the first surgery.

I have horror stories in my family that had private insurance and what happened to them and me. Insurance companies do not care if you die.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Oh believe me I know that too!
Amazing how many people thing the Movie Philadelphia was fiction if anything it wasn't half as gruesome as the crap folks went through during the height of the AIDS crisis with the damn insurance companies in this country


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

My doctor said he could not believe I had a lodged gallstone and they did emergency surgery and the insurance company was telling him to send me home that day.

They had cut me from end to end and I was Jaundice. He said they were out of their minds he was not only concerned for the patient but his malpractice insurance would be cancelled if he sent me out in that condition. I was 26 years old can you imagine?


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

The facts are simple, there will always be some controls over who should and shouldn't receive certain medical care, treatments and there always will be.

The difference is that the GOP like those controls in the hands of big business, IE the health insurance companies and the prescription drug insurance companies.

The Democrats want that control removed and put in the hands of those that can make the appropriate decisions based on all the available medical info.

Simply put, we already have "death panels" bill and their names are all the disgusting health insurance and prescription drug insurance companies that exist in this country.

If you think otherwise, than you live in a dream world, have never had to face those "death panels" with the health insurance companies or the drug insurance companies.

You have no idea what it is like to be a 45 year old woman, diagnosed with breast cancer and have the insurance company turn around and cancel your insurance because you have breast cancer. Now there is no way to get the chemo and radiation treatments that you need, or medicine that you need and without the treatments you die.

Sorry the ER trip isn't going to help you out, it is not emergency treatment, it is not immediate life or death, treat or patient dies in front of you.
It's called chronic long term care.

You have never been that patient with cancer or any other chronic disease that has maxed out their health insurance life time benefits so it's tough luck, no more health care for you, go die.

You've never been the victim of having to decide whether to have food to eat or pay for the prescription that you need to live. Never had to face a decision like that.

Unfortunately, I know far too many people that have been faced with these situations, had to fight like he$$ to get the care, in the end the breast cancer patient, she died because of lack of care.

Yup, she got the "death panel"

The patient with choices for medicines, well my hubby and I helped her pay for her life saving meds so she would live, and no she wasn't a relative, just one of the sweetest, kindest elderly neighbors that anyone could have.

Anyone that makes the claims that you are making Bill, have no idea what they are talking about, what the issues really are in health care.

The feat mongering crap that continues to permeate about the health care reform act is disgusting and pathetic.

Good, solid health care is a human rights issue, not something that is special and available only to people who can afford it and no one, I repeat no one, and no business should ever be allowed to make one red cent off of the backs of those that are sick, those in need of health care, those that are dying.

That is just so disgusting, there are no words to describe it, at least no words that GW would allow someone to post.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

But Bill.

The death panels the industry runs are the reason why you (and your wife) don't have health insurance.

One has to wonder who this Rattner is shilling for, he in fact is critizicing Obama for not installing death panels:

Most notably, President Obama's estimable Affordable Care Act regrettably includes severe restrictions on any reduction in Medicare services or increase in fees to beneficiaries.


'Regrettably'?


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Maddie, I realize that. But when this Obamacare was first being mulled over, to a person, every person on this board in favor of the bill said, NO WAY this would ever happen, no one's that crass or that stupid to even suggest it!!

And now that someone's suggested it, to a person, now it's "What's wrong with it?", to the point that some even joke about it. You think this is going to be the last person that brings up this concept? Or worse, elaborates on it? What age should someone be "put down"? how far along should someone be before it's time to put them down? What diseases should be an instant decision to put them down? I'm sorry. I see nothing funny about this. I'm not going to be able to comment on this any further till later-- I'm off to work.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

This is territory we've covered too many times, already...

I think we wanted something that was a lot better, a lot more comprehensive and inclusive, than what we ended up with. We wanted a more universal approach to health care for our nation.

What we got is not perfect, but it's a promising beginning... a beginning that a few other Presidents have wanted to initiate, but haven't been able to.

Basic health care has become very profit driven, and very exclusive of anyone without monetary means. Doctors and patients are caught in the middle of a money grab, where insurance companies, pharmaceutical corporations, and medical conglomerates fight over the dollar.

There should be no profit in human suffering. Every citizen should have equal access to decent preventive health care.

I don't want to live forever, either... but I don't think it's right that I suffer while I am alive, or that health care costs are such that they financially make or break families or individuals. Our profit driven way of dealing with health care is wrong.

What I'd like to know is... why are all these old talking points suddenly resurfacing and recirculating...


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

I repeat no one, and no business should ever be allowed to make one red cent off of the backs of those that are sick, those in need of health care, those that are dying.

Littleone I agree with every thing you are expressing but the profit. I do feel they should make a profit and receive compensation for the development. Because if they are not rewarded it would be working for free. I think what happened was the excess of greed for the service.

I do not know how that will be fixed but it is the same with our Jobless rate. Companies are sitting on a load of money but as long as the excessive profits keep rolling it appear they do not see a reason to hire or contribute through higher tax rate to the society/country that they gain so much.

They do not want to live in those countries where they get cheap labor and hide their money and do not want to support the country that gives them the luxury of the good life.

I know I keep hearing "what do they get in return for giving more" I would ask why stay in America. You are hiring out of the Country, you are banking out of the country why do you live here?


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Health care is rationed in Canada. So what? It's still a damned sight better than anything you guys have.
All health care needs to be rationed. Think about it. And certainly, everything I have read tells me that health care is rationed under insurance companies.
The American health care system before Obama had to be one of the hugest disincentives to entrepreneurialism ever devised.
But rationing health care services is not the same as a death squad.
No system can expand infinitely, Bill.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

I think many of us said what I said above Bill.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

May I give a slightly different point of view?

My husband and I go back long enough to remember when there wasn't very much group insurance. No Medicare or Medicaid either.

If you had the bad luck to get something bad, you paid for it yourself or did without. You also paid the hospital before you bought a new car/house/college education/etc.

Nope, don't want to go back to those days, BUT, I think we need to be thankful for what we get.

If Insurance companies had to pay what everyone thinks they should.....few of us could afford the premiums.

Obamacare sounds nice, but it's going to cost a bundle. Who's going to pay for it? You and Me. Healthy or not, die in your bed or the hospital, it' going to cost a bundle.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Sat, Sep 29, 12 at 12:55

Premiums are unaffordable for many right now.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Agnes, I don't know how long ago that medical insurance was not available. I do know that the hospital bill for my birth, for ten days of hospitalization, was $56. Even in today's dollars, that was affordable. The hospital bill for my daughter's birth was $154.00, and it wasn't covered by insurance as she was born 9-1/2 months after we took out the policy and the policy required 10 months to cover births (this was before the pill). And, that $154 (plus $125 for the doctor) was also affordable. Five years later, the hospital bill for my son was $1200 and the doctor was about $600. A little less affordable on my ex DH's income, but most of it was covered by insurance.

We can't compare today's medical costs with those of 70 years ago. The technology makes it all unaffordable. No one was bankrupted by medical costs 70 years ago. Now, one major illness, with no insurance, will insure bankruptcy for all but the wealthy.

No thank you. And, who says the ACA will cost a bundle? The CBO has estimated it will cost all of us less, in the long run, that what we are paying now. Get the insurance companies out of the mix and costs will really drop. Study what works in other countries, for 1/2 the cost and better outcomes and adopt those ideas and it will cost even less than the ACA.

I am glad Congress passed the ACA but wish they'd gone further. But, it's a start and once people have it, 100%, they won't go back but wiil demand it be improved. Maybe by then we will have a Congress and a president that have the guts to govern for the people, not the corporations.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Exactly, Bboy... there is a list of general priorities that begins with a roof over one's head, and ends with an adequate amount of food to consume. Somewhere after that is where paying an incurred hospital bill would fit in.

Insurance doesn't even rate for too many people. It's not on their list of affordable things. They are forced to incur those hospital bills when they do become ill.

Having an affordable way to be in a group that spreads out risk is what most people want. The more people that are in such a group, the less the cost for everyone. So, I don't know how people figure it would cost more to have a more universal way of covering everyone... according to basic math, it should cost less.

That is, of course, unless we allow the cost of health care to skyrocket beyond a certain reasonable amount, which would mean that health care is pulling huge profit.

No matter what industry we look at, whether it's health care, oil, agriculture, foods, or whatever, it seems like the only thing the industry is interested in is making the most profit for the least amount of output. When it comes to the human condition, how can one place profit over people?

While it's not unreasonable to expect to earn or make some profit, I think that doing so from human suffering should come with a certain expectation of what "reasonable" is.

Right now, our health care costs are not reasonable.


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On a personal note...

I agree with much of what the former Obama Car Czar, now a Wall Street financier, wrote, specifically:.

The big money in Medicare is not to be found in Mr. Ryan's competition or Mr. Obama's innovation, but in reducing the cost of treating people in the last year of life, which consumes more than a quarter of the program's budget.

From what I remember reading, 60% of a person's health care costs come in the last one or two (can't remember which) years of his/her life. Why should we spend that much money to prolong what is usually a year of suffering for an 80+ year-old? I don't want it spent for me. DH and I have both agreed that we won't consent for ourselves or each other to prolong our lives if the inevitable will still happen, only a year or so later. And, the biggest thing we don't want to happen is to spend our lives and our savings living in a nursing home. We will travel to Switzerland, if necessary, for euthanasia rather than give over our lives and money to a nursing home. Nice trip, great scenery and ending life on our own terms. We'd bring our family with us and have a big party before the end, have our remains cremated, and the family can bring them back if they wish or scatter the ashes in the mountains.

A very good friend's husband (she died 2 years ago, unexpectely) is now in the last stages of ALS (Lou Gehrig's Disease). He is only 64 years old. He has to be tube fed, and have round-the-clock care. His disease was diagnosed shortly after she died. I know I would have chosen the "death with dignity" route when I could still take the pills prescribed (Washington and Oregon have this statute). There's no dignity existing (it's not living) in such a state. It's not costing him as his disease was considered to be the result of Agent Orange from his service in Viet Nam. But, it is costing taxpayers. So, tell me why this is a good thing?


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

  • Posted by ENMc none (My Page) on
    Sat, Sep 29, 12 at 13:42

>>I am glad Congress passed the ACA but wish they'd gone further. But, it's a start and once people have it, 100%, they won't go back but wiil demand it be improved.<<

Yes. That is why it is so important that Obama get a second term. Most of it doesn't take effect until 2014. Teddy Kennedy pushed this and pushed Obama to promise to get this passed. I was very happy that Ted lived long enough to see it happen. One thing that Kennedy said he always regretted was not getting SOME kind of national health care passed. It was his cause. He said Nixon was going to sign off on a plan and he, Teddy, refused because he didn't think it went far enough. He said that was a huge, huge mistake and that he could only imagine that if he had signed off on it just think what we would have now. Real HC reform, single payer Health Care.

So, yeah, I agree. It's a start and it can and will be tweaked. Also, I have seen people that were dead set against this (often times because of lies they have been told) who are now enjoying some of the early benefits of this. Lots of people have college age kids still living at home.. the coverage to age 26 under the parents is a huge relief and help to them.

Also, insurance companies can no longer turn you down because of preexisting conditions. Even in states (like Florida) that have refused to sign on and implement the HC insurance exchanges HC under the ACA is available. The hitch is that you must have gone without health care coverage for the previous 6 months. But after that all you need to qualify is a preexisting condition.. pretty much any condition. The Federal Government puts you on the program coverage. And anyone is eligible. Just need a Doctor to sign off on a preexisting condition. And these nonparticipating states, such as Florida, are not going out of their way to publicize this... they care not a whit about their own citizens in need. Ugh! repugs! So, yeah... baby steps...but these things plus additional coverage's to come will most definitely make for converts.

"Maybe by then we will have a Congress and a president that have the guts to govern for the people, not the corporations."

Don't know if that will be the real motivator. I see a Congress who is motivated by self preservation.

Because once people have this they will be loath to see it disappear. They will scream bloody blue murder , more commonly known as Throw-the-bums-out, if any politician dares to try and take it away.

Why do you think the repugs are so determined to kill it before it starts? They are very aware of the consequences!

E


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Insurance companies do not care if you die.

I mean really......does 'for profit' and healthcare go together?

That's like putting 'Fox' and 'news' in the same sentence.

-Ron-


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

All hospitals have some sort of medical board that review certain procedures against certain criteria. My FIL was 89 when his cardiologist recommended bypass surgery but the medical board had to concur it was an appropriate procedure given his age. Given his excellent health, which was key in his ability to recuperate, the surgery went forward.

MY MIL , on the other hand, had an abdominal aneurism detected at age 82. The recommendation was not to proceed with surgery becasue it was highly unlikely she would not make it through or if she did there could be irreversible damage.

End of life or very late in life health decisions are complex and the family or patient are not always equipped to make the best decisions for the patient. Counseling is critical.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

This past year, a couple of elderly family members (mid-90's) passed away as well as a good friend who died last week from cancer.

The amount of money spent during the last two years of each of their lives is just staggering - well over $200,000 in each instance, the guy with cancer survived 26 months after given 6 months to live, but at a cost of $40,000 a month in chemo drugs alone.

In each case, it was the patients who finally said 'enough' and voluntarily stopped any further treatment.

It was an interesting experience because in each case, the doctors explained:

- what the procedure was and why
- the side effects
- recovery time
- chances of success

They didn't know, or wouldn't discuss the cost, so the patient doesn't know unless he sees the medical bills.

The guy who died from cancer had a high-deductible policy, so was paying the $10,000 deductible and $1,000-something premiums a month for the 26 months, spread out over three calendar years. He couldn't work, and they just about went broke.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Sat, Sep 29, 12 at 15:43

>End of life or very late in life health decisions are complex and the family or patient are not always equipped to make the best decisions for the patient. Counseling is critical<

After what turned out to be her second stroke my mother spent two months of alternating spells in the hospital and the nursing home because she kept starting to aspirate after a few days or so out of the hospital. The medical directive she had prepared some years earlier stated that she not be kept lingering - I did not realize that the rescues at the hospital constituted keeping her alive against her wishes until I was finally taken aside and had this pointed out to me. Before that I just went along with the hospitalizations, which seemed to be automatic to those working on her. And each time they brought her back she returned to being communicative and more or less cogent, although with part of her mind damaged she was a little silly, asking me what some crows outside the window were and asking a nurse for coffee etc.

When I was eventually made to understand the full nature of the situation and therefore directed that they let her go she aspirated to death at the nursing home while I was away, dealing with work being done on my house. That must have been just lovely for her. I found out she died when a hospice nurse that had come to look in on her telephoned me. The doctor attached to the home made his rounds once per month, there was no regular conferring with a doctor for updates and advise available there.

When she was on the way out they talked me into moving her into a cheaper room. This turned out to be shared with a woman who had her half all decked out nicely with her own stuff, like she was still living at home. She had the window end of the room and had to wheel herself past mom's bed every time she came and went. Having a stranger brought in and plunked right next to her little nest, to sit there and die right in front of her must have been a real delight.

All this at what was supposed to be one of the better care facilities around. They claimed to be able to match the level of support being provided by the hospital, but didn't, in fact deliver this at all - there was nothing remotely comparable to all the many thousands of dollars worth of equipment in the hospital rooms, for starters.

This did not prevent the stints there from being staggeringly expensive, as were of course the hospitalizations. At one point I figured the whole sequence ran at least $150,000, which Medicare paid for nearly all of.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

I do not see any need to live 5 more years suffering. Make me comfortable and I will see you all later on the other side. Where everyone will be freely happy.

Because once people have this they will be loath to see it disappear. They will scream bloody blue murder , more commonly known as Throw-the-bums-out, if any politician dares to try and take it away.

Why do you think the repugs are so determined to kill it before it starts? They are very aware of the consequences!

You are right ENMc if we can hold on this election and pull Hilliary through 2016. We will be able to finally get single payer and there will not be another parent have to watch her child die because of corporation for profit health care.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

What a surprise, Bill!

"...when this Obamacare was first being mulled over, to a person, every person on this board in favor of the bill said, NO WAY this would ever happen, no one's that crass or that stupid to even suggest it!!"

I remember those claims. I always wondered how many liberals knowingly repeated what most of us knew all along was a lie, and how many repeated the lie because they actually believed it.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Nik, there is still no evidence to suggest what you would call a "death panel" will happen.

One mans opinion is simply that....an opinion. What facts to do you have that support the notion that death panel will in fact happen?

It hasn't happened here and I see no reason why it should happen there.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Since it is my life, after all... I'd like to be the one who decides how much suffering I can take, what procedures I'll go through, and make the decision about whether or not I want to continue.

So far, most of the people I've known that reached their later years got lucky, and they passed away without too much extra suffering.

But it's a decision I don't want some doctor or hospital making for me. I'd like that left in my hands. I won't allow my husband to suffer unnecessarily, either. That's not right. We were not built to live forever.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

But it's a decision I don't want some doctor or hospital making for me. I'd like that left in my hands. I won't allow my husband to suffer unnecessarily, either. That's not right. We were not built to live forever.

I wonder how a death panel would work. Information is to readily available. I would think regardless of a death panel they would have to inform you of your condition. After you have that information you can find what the treatment would be under normal circumstances.

If you choose to go further I would think there would have to be some changes in the Hippocratic Oath coupled with higher Malpractice insurance for the doctors.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

I wonder how a death panel would work.

So you'd have like 5 men dressed all in white with white masks and stuff, and in a white room? An' they'd start off looking at your tax returns, - thats why Obama wants to expand the IRS!!! See if you were one of the 53% that paid your dues. Or, well, not.

I think its pretty clear where this is going.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Stop David you know how those Fox boxes will eat that story and believe every word. Dumb as a stumps would never think to research their condition to ask question.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Bill, you won't hear that "What's wrong with it?" line from me.

Reading Rattner's piece, it's pretty telling what, or whom he doesn't mention. The "last year of life care costs" is a red herring.

Follow the money.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

In many cases the insurances ALREADY decide whether you live or die, just get ill and you'll see.

I don't believe in death panels, but it's a good idea that people make their wishes known as to how they want to die.

Personally, I don't want heroics. I think that when I no longer will be able to care for myself, or be in too much pain, an IV bag with some potent pain meds, and to prn it will work for me just fine.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

"Nik, there is still no evidence to suggest what you would call a "death panel" will happen."

An Obama adviser just made a public call for them. The message was clear enough for me.

The good news is that Death Panels only come with Barack Obama's re election. Only if a majority of Americans allow him to impose his will and grotesque Obamacare law upon us, can his Death Panels put a single American at risk.

If Mitt Romney is elected, government won't be in the business of marking sick Americans for death via denial of treatment.

Some of us have long memories. The notion that telling mom to "take the pill" (supplied by government) might be a good idea came straight from Barack Hussein Obama's own mouth.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

If Mitt Romney is elected, government won't be in the business of marking sick Americans for death via denial of treatment.

No, it will be in the loving hands of United Health Care, NY Stock Exchange symbol UNH, now selling at 11.22 P/E, and you'll easily be able to convince the people you deal with that your hip replacement surgery, when you're 95 yrs old, is more important than their Christmas bonus that they planned to use on getting braces for their kid.

Because all those thousands and thousands of cases of coverage denial by private health insurance, coupled with 'performance bonuses' for saving the company money, will just suddenly disappear.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

I work in health care. I have seen what happens when a patient is made a DNR. That patient is the first to be skipped, neglected and ignored. I have sat myself in the room until the nurse brings the morphine,or whatever relief medication is needed.

I will continue to refuse to put that label on my mother. When it is for sure that there is no quality of life for her, I will do it then. Not one minute before.

And I don't want medicare, ins. co., or any dr making the decision.

On the other hand, I have seen children keeping a parent alive just to keep the parent's income (pension, etc) rolling in. Parents on ventilators for years who never wake up.

On the third hand, I understand the difficulty of family making the decsion. You have to have a certain kind of emotional strength to make that kind of horrific permanent decision. It is something I dread like nothing else.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

NO, Let's get one thing straight.....The insurance companies are not deciding on whether or not you live or die....They decide on whether or not they will PAY for the treatment that will extend life. You are always free to pay for treatment.

I don't think people know all the things that can be done to extend life. It can be costly. And often for just a few weeks more. It's the patient's choice.

The Hospitals have another problem. Unless there are instructions from the patient to just let things go, there is always the chance (and it's likely to happen) that there is a relative that will sue the hospital because "they didn't do every thing they could to keep Poor Old Aunt Nellie alive."

The FAMILY, if the patient is too far gone to make the choice, has to decide that enough is enough. Not the doctor, not the hospital, not the Insurance Company.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

I am constantly amazed at the level of paranoia some have. What exactly is a death panel, who is it comprised of, under what authority do they exist?

Can anyone really imagine the scenario that would have to exist that would allow "the government" to unilaterally, without the agreement of the Congress, establish death panels? Just sit back and let it happen....
Can anyone really imagine the people doing nothing?

While it its perfectly reasonable to have a full debate about end of life care It is not reasonable to believe that the" government" ......in this case the President , has the powers some confer upon him given checks and balances and all that good stuff.

Like I said the level of paranoia is mind boggling.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

I agree Chase. The paranoia is really amazing. And as the polls move more and more to Obama's favor, it continues to grow. Evidenced by statements like "death panels" and "grotesque Obamacare". Grotesque Obamacare? I don't think caring about the American people and thinking everyone has a right to healthcare is grotesque. Apparently you do. Sad.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Well, Sarah Palin "the bimbo" loved the term death panels, and her followers are still chanting........lmao

As for Obamacare, unfortunately, Obama was able to pass a very watered down version (A semi-GOP version)of healthcare because some Dems and all of Reps would have not voted for a single-payor system.

Although TG I have insurance, I wanted to see others get what is right- a decent healthcare, not driven by for profit insurances, and penalities if you don't buy it.

If it would have been a single-payor, non-profit, in the form of payroll deduction, it would have BENEFITED the people, not the ins cos. Now, I feel like it's a mess thanks to the GOP and some Faux Dems. Those are the facts.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Jill, I'm sure your last comment was not directed at me......if it was please help me understand.

notto , I'm enjoying your posts and you are quite right single payer is the right direction and I think it will happen some day but it will be a long haul.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

No, Chase, sorry! I was agreeing with you about the paranoia part. The rest was directed at those using the term "death panel" and specifically at nik for her "grotesque Obamacare" comment.

Sorry!


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

"Like I said the level of paranoia is mind boggling."

Charming.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

NO, Let's get one thing straight.....The insurance companies are not deciding on whether or not you live or die....They decide on whether or not they will PAY for the treatment that will extend life. You are always free to pay for treatment.

I bed to disagree with the above statement.

Those insurance companies are most assuredly making the decisions on whether one lives or dies and they are doing it by denying payments for needed medical care that should be paid for, by canceling insurance on those that have gotten sick, and by denying coverage because of age and/or pre existing conditions.

Saying that one has the option to pay for it oneself, is an insult, since the majority of us have absolutely no financial ability to pay for the needed medical care and/or medications so that treatment can be obtained and one can live.

Those in the very top income levels, yes they can pay, the rest of us he$$ no.

To think or say that the insurance companies where not using death panel mentality and deciding who will live and die is a fool to think that.
It is exactly what they where doing until "obamacare" but a stop to it.

What is unfortunate is that it is a watered down version of what it should have been and watered down because of the GOP, and even after they got so much of what they wanted in the bill, they end up not supporting it and continue to threaten to repeal the health care reform laws if they can do it.

Paranoia prevails with the GOP and those that fall for their absurd statements, their lies, their twisted truths.

It's mind boggling to see people spout what they do in belief and support of the GOP and their lies.

The scary part is that people believe their lies, the even scarier part is that these GOP supporters not only believe the GOP lies, but will proceed to vote and attempt to vote them into office so that the health care reform bill can be repealed.

This paranoid fear of government health insurance is so sick, there just are no longer any words to describe it.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Charming ?

You are the one asserting that these death panels will happen if Obama is reelected......not unreasonable to ask you how you see that unfolding.

Absent a reasonable scenario, one can only assume it is paranoia.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

I'm pretty sure they'll come up with a more medical-sounding term than "death panels".

Why pick on the elderly? Why not anyone who's too expensive? What about premature babies? Or those babies born with a defect that could be fixed? Or people with chronic conditions: diabetes, asthma, etc. They're pretty expensive.

Why not just cut off fat people and drug addicts? Health time bombs; waste of money.

Down the road, the rules can be expanded to include troublemakers, convicted criminals, and their ilk.

Well, you get the picture; government deciding this sort of thing is very scary territory.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

I understand people being nervous anything new will cause some concerns. Also the fact that so many put their health behind the hatred for this President.

I just wish personal responsibility would come to the forefront and consider what has happened with the insurance company and what they have done in the past.

Insurance Co. have had death panels by refusal to pay for procedures that with the new law they cannot do. They have had death panels by denying patients because of pre-existing condition.

So why would we think that going back to the old insurance policies would be your lifesaver?


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

I could not agree more - insurance companies ran their own version of "death panels" for years. Obamacare actually improves the way insurance companies treat people and reduces the change that people will die because they didn't get treatment because:

- they had a pre-existing condition
- they reached a lifetime maximum on an expensive condition
- their coverage was tied to their job

I'm sorry so many people are afraid of Obamacare. I overheard a woman this weekend saying she was afraid of whether Obama (Obama personally!) would cover her condition (she is recovering from cancer). The fear mongering that has gone on in this country around healthcare is just pathetic.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

As I understand it American seniors have universal , government run, single payer healthcare today. I know there is an option for private supplemental insurance but basically it is as I describe.

Who is making the healthcare decions for those seniors? Does some government bureaucrat get in between the patient and the doctor to decide what care a senior will or won't get? Are there some sort of"panels" making the decisions?

I suspect not, but but perhaps it is the bad experiences of government interference in the health care of seniors today that is driving the paranoia.

If the government wants to impose death panels why haven't they done it already?


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

As I understand it American seniors have universal , government run, single payer healthcare today. I know there is an option for private supplemental insurance but basically it is as I describe.

Who is making the healthcare decions for those seniors? Does some government bureaucrat get in between the patient and the doctor to decide what care a senior will or won't get? Are there some sort of"panels" making the decisions?

I suspect not, but but perhaps it is the bad experiences of government interference in the health care of seniors today that is driving the paranoia.

If the government wants to impose death panels why haven't they done it already?


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Because until now, we didn't have the heath care reform act, No Obamacare to worry about, none of this nonsense to think about.

Because until the past few years, we didn't have the insanity of the TeaParty, the right wing of the GOP hysterical that their pals in the Insurance Companies would no longer be able to rule the roost.

Because we didn't have health care reform act being passed and doing something to improve the health care for people in this country, provide most people with some form of health care and make it mandatory for people to have health care insurance.

Because, and this is the most important reason, Obama and the Democrats came up with this plan, it is good at least compared to what we have had and is a stepping stone to even better health care in this country.
Can't let that Democrat in the White House get any credit for doing something good, got to get him out of there, got to make him a 1 term president no matter what we have to do, even if it is screw the country, screw the people of the country, doesn't matter just get him out of here.

There is no rationale for this insanity, these lies, other than paranoia, fear, and got to get rid of Obama.

The government has no intention of imposing death panels now and never did and never will.

That is pure lies and fabrication to fear monger the people into hating and not wanting Obamacare and in believing this way will put the GOP back in the white house.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

"If the government wants to impose death panels why haven't they done it already?"

Because Obama's election was the first time Americans ever had a president telling them elderly parents can "take a pill." Some figured out where that leads.

Others remain clueless, even after an Obama adviser calls for Death Panels.



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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Do you even know the context of the "take a pill" comment?

The exchange began when Sawyer introduced Jane Sturm, who takes care of her mother, Hazel, now 105. When Hazel was 100, Sturm said, the doctor told her she needed a pacemaker. Both mother and daughter said they were game, but an arrhythmia specialist initially said no, before seeing Hazel's "joy of life" in person.

Sturm asked the president, "Outside the medical criteria for prolonging life for somebody elderly, is there any consideration that can be given for a certain spirit, a certain joy of living, quality of life? Or is it just a medical cutoff at a certain age?"

After joking that he'd like to meet Sturm's mother and "find out what she's eating," the president said, "I don't think that we can make judgments based on peoples' spirit. That would be a pretty subjective decision to be making. I think we have to have rules that say that we are going to provide good, quality care for all people."

After Gibson interjected with a comment about how money may not have been available for a pacemaker, Obama responded, "Well, and - and that's absolutely true. And end-of-life care is one of the most difficult sets of decisions that we're going to have to make. I don't want bureaucracies making those decisions, but understand that those decisions are already being made in one way or another. If they're not being made under Medicare and Medicaid, they're being made by private insurers. We don't always make those decisions explicitly. We often make those decisions by just letting people run out of money or making the deductibles so high or the out-of-pocket expenses so onerous that they just can't afford the care."

Obama continued, "And all we're suggesting - and we're not going to solve every difficult problem in terms of end-of-life care. A lot of that is going to have to be, we as a culture and as a society starting to make better decisions within our own families and for ourselves. But what we can do is make sure that at least some of the waste that exists in the system that's not making anybody's mom better, that is loading up on additional tests or additional drugs that the evidence shows is not necessarily going to improve care, that at least we can let doctors know and your mom know that, you know what? Maybe this isn't going to help. Maybe you're better off not having the surgery, but taking the painkiller. And those kinds of decisions between doctors and patients, and making sure that our incentives are not preventing those good decisions, and that - that doctors and hospitals all are aligned for patient care, that's something we can achieve."

Looking at the full transcript, it's clear that Obama voluntarily brought up the example of having to choose between a surgery and a pill. But he did so as a hypothetical example of difficult decisions about medical treatment for older patients. He was not advocating, much less requiring, bureaucrats to make a potentially life-ending decision for a centenarian.

"I don't want bureaucracies making those decisions," Obama said.

It's about not keeping people alive just because you can, even when they may not want to. It's about helping people make their end of life decisions in advance so their doctors and families understand their wishes. And it's also about not letting panels/bureaucrats make those decisions.

In fact, I'd say his statements are anti-"death panel" if anything!

Here is a link that might be useful: source


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Obama and the Democrats came up with this plan, it is good at least compared to what we have had and is a stepping stone to even better health care in this country.
Can't let that Democrat in the White House get any credit for doing something good

The smart move, IMO, if they really wanted to get Romney elected, would have been to talk about how this was all Romney's idea to begin with. How Romney is so great and wonderful and look what he accomplished in MA. Healthcare for everyone! Imagine how wonderful it would be to have a President with these great ideas!

Well, thankfully, they were too stupid IMO to sieze the opportunity they had. And their supporters aren't smart enough to realize they are being played.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

From the sounds of it, I'd think Obama was advocating that everyone be their own death panel...and I'm all for that.

If some day in the future, I am facing a debilitating illness, a life of pain, or the prospect of surgery at an old age, I want to be able to be my own death panel. I want to make the decision to skip the surgery and just take the painkillers. I want to decide if ending my own life is better than facing the rest of my days in pain. I want to be able to "take the pill."


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

The smart move, IMO, if they really wanted to get Romney elected

Oh but they were in too deep. You have to remember they have been screaming how bad ObamaCare is for so many years it was too late by the time they had their flawed candidate. They probably had no idea that Romney would win I am sure.

Be careful when you dig a grave for someone you may be digging your own grave.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Let me bottom-line this:

We already have DEATH PANELS in place, called insurance DENIAL. It's all there, just buried under a fancy insurance language called the fine print.

The denial of coverage (death panel) is for ALL ages, not just the elderly.

1)Let's assume for a moment that we have a death panel deciding whether gramma needs cardiac surgery or not....and they decide NOT.

2)What is the difference when TODAY, private insurances so cleaverly hire underwriters to write a specific lingo into the policies which deny care for all ages? In other words, IF gramma, baby, sister, dad, or whomever don't fall into ABC....criteria the insurance company will not cover it. Sure, they can pay for it themselves, if they want it.

So back to 1)gramma-IF she wants to pay for her cardiac surgery, she CAN have it, even if the death panel says no. What will stop it? The doctors will gladly take grammas cash.

See how stupid the argument of death panels is?

The way I see it, having death panels for the elderly may be better than what we have NOW-FOR EVERY AGE!!!! sarcasm*


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Exactly, HG... and it SHOULD be an individual choice, not dictated by an insurance company or any agency, hospital, or doctor, or even a church (through beliefs), but by the patient, themselves.

Why is taking ones own life considered such a bad thing? Doesn't my life belong to me? Should I be forced to suffer, or forced to continue if I don't want to?

Why does society look so unfavorably upon the decisions made by the individual? It seems as though we have this unrelenting urge to keep everything alive, whether suffrage is part of it, or not. Why is that?

What if the patient doesn't want to suffer? He or she should be free to make end result decisions by themselves.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

"We already have DEATH PANELS in place, called insurance DENIAL."

Yep. If you feel powerless now, wait until an unelected panel of bureaucrats takes over. They will answer to no one other than Barack Obama. What could possibly go wrong?


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Yep. If you feel powerless now, wait until an unelected panel of bureaucrats takes over. They will answer to no one other than Barack Obama. What could possibly go wrong?

You actually believe that? Or is that just for shock value?


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Well they only have 4 years to get the panels in place if they are to report directly to the president...better hurry!


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Yep. If you feel powerless now, wait until an unelected panel of bureaucrats takes over. They will answer to no one other than Barack Obama. What could possibly go wrong?

Oh yes tremble and shake Obama is going to be President until the end of the world. We should all be very afraid. We have health care and could not get it before so he is going to kill us all now.

I am so glad you warned us Nik.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Yep. If you feel powerless now, wait until an unelected panel of bureaucrats takes over. They will answer to no one other than Barack Obama. What could possibly go wrong?

Now if that isn't the perfect example of paranoia, I don't know what is.

4 years to go, and then what? Answer to Obama.

Hey Nik, is President Obama going to arrange something so that all these reports will go to the next president after him in 2016?

Better get used to the idea of "Obamacare" being fully implemented, cause things aren't looking so good for your candidate.

You may think there is hope, you may think that things will turn around after the first debate, but that is looking more and more like you and your fellow supporters are just living in "la la land".

You guys chose your flawed candidate, not that any of the others weren't equally flawed or had even more flaws than your "chosen one".

Got got a few more weeks to go to get used to 4 more years of an Obama administration.

Maybe you want to move out of the country and take up citizenship somewhere else. OOPs be careful where you decide to move to though, you might have to deal with socialized medicine in another country.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Well they only have 4 years to get the panels in place if they are to report directly to the president...better hurry!

You know chase, if they wanted to speed things up and get these government controlled death panels in place quickly, we could always let them use our death panels as a model.

Quite simple really. Every Canadian must call their local Member of Parliament before they are allowed to visit a doctor or go to the hospital. The MP then sends a formal request to the Prime Minister's Office asking permission for this citizen to access the socialist Killing Facilities...er...I mean the hospital. Prime Minister Harper personally reviews each request and applies his approval or denial based entirely upon the patient's political leanings. The patient then recives his special access code and can report to the doctor for either cure or kill.

I know, I know, it sounds complicated. But it's actually a very simple and easily operated system.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Ah ha, HG! That explains those loooonnnngggg waits for medical care in Canada that I hear so much about by the right wing here. Wow, they were right! ;-)


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

That explains those loooonnnngggg waits for medical care in Canada that I hear so much about by the right wing here.

Oh, it's true.

You know, when I was pregnant with my son, I had to wait 14 months before I was approved to give birth. It's always hard to be that pregnant during a hot summer...


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

HG, just loving every one of your posts. explains so much, doesn't it?


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

It must have been hell to keep your legs crossed for those extra months, too, HG... I mean, 5 extra months of not allowing your water to break, and not allowing any contractions to begin... what troopers Canadian women are! ;-)

You know what they say... paranoia will destroy ya!


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

OMG H G , you got me to thinking.....which in and of itself is brilliant on your part.....

So if Harper is in charge of our death panels and Obama is positioning himself to be in charge of the US death panels, clearly modeling himself after Harper, maybe that means that Obama was actually born in Canada, not Kenya, and is a secret member of the Conservative Party of Canada!!!

Americans be worried, be very worried.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

I was reading something the other night. It has been a mystery to me how so many of the Right Wing can seem to blindly believe the false statements they hear and repeat. It seems no matter how many times facts are given they cannot seem to grasp the truth.

I realize they have to first want to believe. So it was systematic first you give them a "reason to believe"..Party, Racism, Fear...Repeat the same story and there is no fact that will get through the wall that has been built around the "reasons"

I was reading this and I think I understand. They have their misinformation....

The sources of our greatest problems are two fold: One, a lack of information and two, perhaps most importantly, a plethora of wrong information.

Accordingly, we can divide the majority of the population into two camps:
- The uninformed
- The misinformed

The Misinformed:

This group is the most dangerous of the two. I say "dangerous" because unlike the uninformed, the misinformed have a tendency to become enamored with their own beliefs and opinions. Sadly, it seems that the uninformed lack conviction while the misinformed are full of passionate intensity and unfortunately, passionate ignorance breeds contempt.

This group blindly supports the well-known notion that knowledge equals freedom. Sadly, they are "misinformed" once again. As Einstein said, "Information is not knowledge." Only correct and accurate knowledge properly applied leads to freedom. But incorrect knowledge is more dangerous than ignorance because it creates new problems while perpetuating old ones hence the frightening rate of which we repeat our less than admirable history.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Because, and this is the most important reason, Obama and the Democrats came up with this plan, it is good at least compared to what we have had and is a stepping stone to even better health care in this country.

Actually, Obama and the Democrats did not come up with this plan. It was a Republican plan - something that Bob Dole proposed, the Heritage Foundation also suggested it, and it was implemented by Romney in Massachusetts.

But the conservatives don't want to hear that becauase it doesn't conform to their beliefs which allow them to castigate Obama and the Democrats.

This country is absolutely crazy (at least about half of it is).

Here is a link that might be useful: /The Wall Street Journal Even Says So Re Heritage Fdn.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

This country is absolutely crazy (at least about half of it is).

It is that misinformation problem.

Because it was a Republican plan Obama thought it would not be a problem. This is one thing I think surprised him.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

"You actually believe that? Or is that just for shock value?"

It's not rocket science. When it's Obama's adviser calling for Death Panels and it's Obama's Independent Payment Advisory Panel usurping the power of our elected Congress to change Medicare, I don't have a bit of trouble figuring out where that leads.

Obama needs hopelessly naive Americans to continue to believe there is no such thing as the Death Panels his own adviser called for. Lefty foreigners stepping in to reassure naive Americans that talk of Death Panels is just "paranoia" is obviously quite effective. And essential to the re election of the most radical, far left president in American history.

I find it interesting that so many liberal Canadians have just "found" their way to this forum, while not a single conservative Canadian resides here. Extremely interesting.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Obama needs hopelessly naive Americans to continue to believe there is no such thing as the Death Panels his own adviser called for. Lefty foreigners stepping in to reassure naive Americans that talk of Death Panels is just "paranoia" is obviously quite effective.
..
I find it interesting that so many liberal Canadians have just "found" their way to this forum, while not a single conservative Canadian resides here. Extremely interesting.

Darn, you caught us. Obama is paying us all to be here and divert attention away from the Socialist Killing Facilities he has been operating under the guise of "hospitals" the past 3 1/2 years.

Incredible part of it is that many of us were here before Obama even ran for office. He actually had enough foresight to put us on the payroll before he even ran! It's like he's psychic!


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Nik, don't be so sure there aren't Canadian conservatives posting here....our Conservatives are what you would describe as liberal!!


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Liberal: Anything to the political left of Ghenghis Khan


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Nik, don't be so sure there aren't Canadian conservatives posting here....our Conservatives are what you would describe as liberal!!

No, no, no. Don't listen to Chase. She's just trying to throw you off the trail. Here's what really is happening.

See, here in Canada we don't have secret ballots. Voting is done in public and the government keeps records of how everyone votes and which political parties we support.

Some time ago, Barack Obama purchased all of those Canadian voting records... right around the same time he seized control of ivillage and gardenweb. He then sent job offers to any Canadians who wished to come here and defend Death Panels...er...I mean socialized health care. Then he blocked the IP addresses of any person who showed up on the list of people who vote Conservative.

We get compensated handsomely for passing off Obama's opinions as our own to naive Americans and get a bonus for every Conservative American we successfully label as "paranoid".

Oh Nik, if only you knew the full extent, if only you knew...


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

The good thing is there are so few misfits that the good and honest always wins. Everybody including Liberals are saying this race should not be this close given the economy is not booming. That tells you there are not as many stupid people out there as was imagined.

There are just so many lies and hate speech that normal intelligent people will follow. You will always have a few, there are people that are prone to the negative, their lives are not happy and enjoy the discourse, they are not happy so nobody should be happy etc.

This is reading like a novel. "The Stand"


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Lefty foreigners

Bwaaaahhhhhaaaaaa!!!

That's funny!

Wow, nik, the more you post, the more your paranoia becomes so very obvious.

HG - thank you for the chuckles! Sad part is she probably believes it all.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

You know... you guys are really throwing a monkey wrench into it, now! Some folks are going to be more confused than ever! They may even think about going into hiding somewhere... somewhere those nasty facts can't follow and find them! Reason forbid!

So, you guys, then, are responsible for placing those birth announcements in the Honolulu newspapers, back in 1961, right?


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

So, you guys, then, are responsible for placing those birth announcements in the Honolulu newspapers, back in 1961, right?

Shhhh... Ixnay on the ewspapersnay.

That's top secret stuff.

The Canadian Conspiracy was only the beginning. Somebody misheard Canada and thought they said Kenya.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Tue, Oct 2, 12 at 20:02

Canadians, Kenyans - makes no difference, they're all lefty foreigners.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

World Net Daily has the best take on the OP:

A top Democrat strategist and donor who served as President Obama's lead auto-industry adviser recently conceded that the rationing of heath services under Obamacare is "inevitable."

Steven Rattner advocated that such rationing should target elderly patients, while stating, "We need death panels."

Rattner serves on the board the New America Foundation, or NAF, a George Soros-funded think tank that was instrumental in supporting Obamacare in 2010. Soros' son, financier Jonathan Soros, is also a member of the foundation's board.

Rattner was the so-called "car czar," the lead auto adviser to the Treasury Department under Obama.

Last month, Rattner penned an opinion piece in the New York Times titled "Beyond Obamacare" in which he proclaimed "We need death panels" and argued rationing must be instructed to sustain Obama's health-care plan. His comments have been virtually ignored by traditional media as the president campaign's for a second term.

"We need death panels," began Rattner. "Well, maybe not death panels, exactly, but unless we start allocating health-care resources more prudently - rationing, by its proper name - the exploding cost of Medicare will swamp the federal budget."

Continued Rattner: "But in the pantheon of toxic issues - the famous -third rail- of American politics - none stands taller than overtly acknowledging that elderly Americans are not entitled to every conceivable medical procedure or pharmaceutical."

Rattner lamented how Obama's Affordable Care Act "regrettably includes severe restrictions on any reduction in Medicare services or increase in fees to beneficiaries."

Rattner said the numbers don't add up unless Obamacare utilizes rationing.

"If his Independent Payment Advisory Board comes up with savings, Congress must accept either them or vote for an equivalent package," stated Rattner. "The problem is, the advisory board can't propose reducing benefits (a k a rationing) or raising fees (another form of rationing), without which the spending target looms impossibly large."

Rattner singled out elderly patients for benefit cuts.

He wrote: "No one wants to lose an aging parent. And with price out of the equation, it's natural for patients and their families to try every treatment, regardless of expense or efficacy. But that imposes an enormous societal cost that few other nations have been willing to bear. Many countries whose health care systems are regularly extolled - including Canada, Australia and New Zealand - have systems for rationing care."

He concluded, "At the least, the Independent Payment Advisory Board should be allowed to offer changes in services and costs."

"We may shrink from such stomach-wrenching choices, but they are inescapable."

Rattner serves on the NAF's 22-person board of directors alongside Jonathan Soros, CNN's Fareed Zakaria and Google's Eric Schmidt.

Soros' Open Society Foundation is a primary donor to the NAF.

Other major donors include the Ben & Jerry's Foundation, the Carnegie Corporation of New York, the Ford Foundation, the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, Google Inc. and the Rockefeller Foundation.

Another donor is Free Press, a group that advocates for more government control of the airwaves and Internet.

Free Press is also funded by Soros. Free Press was founded by Robert W. McChesney, an avowed Marxist who has recommended capitalism be dismantled "brick by brick."

The NAF, meanwhile, bills itself as bipartisan and "the radical center."

NAF fellow Michael Lind wrote, "Our goal [is] not to repeal the New Deal [of Franklin Roosevelt] but to adapt it to the circumstances of the 21st century."

Discover The Networks notes how the NAF approved of Obamacare because it would "offer a new image" of how Americans view dying; and it would help "patients and their families to recognize" that, "[S]ometimes - doing everything- results in more burden than benefit. High-tech medicine can prolong life, but for some patients, it merely draws out the process of dying."

Here is a link that might be useful: because it just wouldn't be complete w/o mentioning Soros


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Crickets from the left...

Tough act to follow, David.

Toss grandma off the cliff, quick! Wait--not my grandma; YOUR grandma...


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

1)I believe in allowing people to die with dignity, whichever way they wish. Many people die unexpectedley, so not everyone can state their wishes. Perhaps, we should start asking 18 yo's and then re-visiting every 10 years to see what each individual wishes are.... just a thought. Ironically, my wish has not changed since I was 18 yo.
2)Insurances ALREADY DENY care, so call it what you want, but it IS a form of Death Panels. You can pay for the treatments YOURSELF, but you can ALSO pay for your treatments yourself IF there truly were Death Panels set up, so you could live to be 150!
3)It's not all insurances fault. Although, I truly believe that we should have a single payor, not for profit, system in place in the US. Those who choose to get private insurance, should be able to do so, kind of like the public and private schools. The other side of the healthcare coin is that MEDICINE IS TOO EXPENSIVE, and almost all is driven by GREED. How does one justify charging 10k for a procedure, but take 2.5k payment from an ins co? Yet the poor uninsured person has to pay the FULL amount?

-There are many medical facilites springing up as a big business. They are not in it for patient care. They go to training classes to learn how to "extract" money from the ins co.
-There are sales people visiting the medical facilites and telling them to purchase a certain piece of equipment, and they can charge a huge amount, because Medicare and other ins will pay for it. It's all a game and a scam.

Meanwhile, people cannot get BASIC care in this country.

Finally, IMO the medical facilites charge as much as they do, because THEY CAN, and because it's THIRD party that is paying for it (ins). It's impersonal. I remember a dentist office telling me to come every 6 months (I have a fear of dentists), even though I have excellent teeth and take care of them....the argument was that ONLY ins co are happy that you don't come every 6 months. I never went back to THAT office.
This is how costs go up, whether the ins is govt run or private. Somebody else is paying for it so we need to abuse it. I do believe in preventative care, but NOT businesscare.

Healthcare is broken on MANY LEVELS. This country should strive to fix it from the bottom up. The GREED and the BIG business aspect needs to be curtailed. All this is happening on the administrative level. The healthcare workers are overworked, and the patient suffers, all because of runnaway GREED. It's an entity of our overall economy, but it's UGLY, and the politicans and the medical administrators should NOT be allowed play GOD with peoples' lives!
There are plenty of OTHER areas that big business can thrive, like the cable, electric companies, widget making...but NOT the healthcare.

People need to take some responsibilty here, and try to stick together to fix this entire healthcare mess.
*Instead, everybody thinks it won't happen to them. They won't get sick.
*TG most have ins which will cover most of it
*Some think that they would be paying for others, which isn't true. WE already pay for others through higher premiums and all sorts of grants to the hospitals etc.

Unfortunately, a typical person does NOT understand how med care operates. Meanwhile, the private ins are laughing all the way to the bank, because if you want more healthcare, they'll charge YOU more, or deny, no problem. And the problems continue with the little people fighting over Death Panels, vouchers, and rationing care. People suffer. Politicians can afford EVERYTHING.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Hey! You stole my line, Notto... you said, "GREED"! ;-)


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Crickets from the left...

Tough act to follow, David

Perhaps you missed the 100 so response before. Try reading from the beginning. Forward instead of backwards.

I think it was agreed that death panels are here now because the insurance companies have refused to pay. There will be the same option if you have taken Responsibility you will be able to pay for the end to die as you chose. If not then you will die at the hands of the insurance co, or Medicare. GREED. There is no difference because of the Affordable Health Care aka ObamaCare.

But our Politicians are not governing to have the same benefit they want for us. They are not under the Social Security System or our Health Care System. Why is that?


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Maybe they're not under the SS System during their political tenure; however many of them paid into the system BP (Before Politics) and many will be paying into it again AP.

Ron Paul collects Social Security.

Congress has good health insurance, but it's not free and not reserved only for them - and it's not government insurance. House and Senate members are allowed to purchase private health insurance offered through the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

"Most notably, President Obama�s estimable Affordable Care Act regrettably includes severe restrictions on any reduction in Medicare services or increase in fees to beneficiaries. In 2009, Sarah Palin�s rant about death panels even forced elimination from the bill of a provision to offer end-of-life consultations."

I guess I just interpret things differently. First off, his title terminology was an allusion to Sara Palin's comment about death panels in 2009. Secondly, his criticism of Obama's affordable health care plan is the same criticism as mine...it didn't go far enough. Yes, he was critical of the lack of some money saving aspects of the plan...the core at why Medicare is costing itself into oblivion but he did preface his complaint with the term 'estimable'...worthy.

After reading through this, I'm not sure where anybody stands. If there was a Republican in the White House today, NOBODY would be discussing healthcare.

-Ron-


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

The Death Panels are in the news because an Obama adviser called for them.

An irrefutable truth has left Obamacare supporters in a terrible spot.

With contradictions to their narrative straight from an Obama adviser, they've responded in a most uncivilized way: With emotional disruptions and very personal attacks against posters who disagree with them.

Might be worth watching this thread from here on out. Take note of which posters ignore forum rules and choose to continue the personal attacks against other posters.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

"The Death Panels are in the news because an Obama adviser called for them."

Actually he was never an Obama adviser in the area of Healthcare. He headed up the Auto Restructuring, a role he longer holds.

It is the opinion of a private person who has every right to say whatever he wants.

The only truth is this man said what he said...there is absolutely NO irrefutable truth that any of this has any influence or substance with the administration...none.

Of course I could be proved wrong with real facts tied directly to the health care portfolio or the President.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Posted by fouquieria 10b (My Page) on Wed, Oct 3, 12 at 13:07

"Most notably, President Obama�s estimable Affordable Care Act regrettably includes severe restrictions on any reduction in Medicare services or increase in fees to beneficiaries
x***************************************************

Obama IS trying to do the right thing by limiting payments and giving incentives to the healthcare facilities to keep the people healthy, by paying less, thinking that the charges SOMEHOW will be less. As long as there are private insurances playing games this won't work. It will just UPSET the medical community, and they will not want to see seniors.

The problem with Medicare paying less and "rationing" payments and care is that the PRIVATE ins are watching and following. In other words, they are collecting MORE from the insurred, and paying less, just staying above what Medicare pays. You all just watch your ins benefits dis appear. The private ins are loving this and stating that they pay better than Medicare (they do, a bit more, just to keep people confused and with THEM), so poeple should NEVER want a single payor system, like Medicare.

The BIG picture is that MEDICAL CARE needs to come down in cost. Take the profits out of peoples' illnesses. We need a single payor system. Let the private ins compete for patients.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Nikoleta, this is the irrefutable truth, "If there was a Republican in the White House today, NOBODY would be discussing healthcare."

-Ron-


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

"Nikoleta, this is the irrefutable truth, "If there was a Republican in the White House today, NOBODY would be discussing healthcare."

Democrats won...but we're still not talking about "Health Care." We're talking about DEATH PANELS. Nicely done, Democrats.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

  • Posted by vgkg 7-Va Tidewater (My Page) on
    Wed, Oct 3, 12 at 18:09

Mitt Romney / Paul Ryan 2012
Want Immortality? Date a Vampire!


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Nicely done, Democrats.

We can't help it that you are stuck like a broken record! How about Republicans actually HELP for a change?


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

  • Posted by sweeby Gulf Coast TX (My Page) on
    Wed, Oct 3, 12 at 18:57

I have a high deductible individual health care policy with the first $3,750 of annual medical expenses being 100% mine. Since I am basically healthy, most years, my insurance company pays NOTHING for me, though they still charge me more than $10,000 per year for coverage.

When I explain this simple fact to the physicians I do see, as I do on every visit, the tests they order change dramatically.

Now maybe I don't * really * need that cardiac stress test and bone density scan they wanted me to have, and most likely my vitamin D levels are fine since I've been taking the supplement they prescribed.

Why should what I "need" vary at all?... And yet, whenever I'm explicitly clear that their tests are 'out of my pocket' the script changes. (Most people in my area are very well-insured, so I'm the anomaly.)

We NEED more oversight of medical care, since it's obvious the doctors are not keeping costs in mind at all. But it sure shouldn't be the insurance companies providing it -- at least, not under the current system.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

"We can't help it that you are stuck like a broken record! How about Republicans actually HELP for a change?"

What kind of help are you looking for, esh?


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Help in crafting bipartisan solutions that get the economy growing again, for example. That is, unless you don't want it to grow so that you can say that Obama's administration was a failure because you'd rather sacrifice the citizens of America than help him look good?


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

So, can you help a brother out, nik?


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

We NEED more oversight of medical care, since it's obvious the doctors are not keeping costs in mind at all.

I agree. Recently a long list of tests now considered unnecessary was published. I'm pretty sure cardiac stress tests and bone density scans were among them.

According to another recent study, 26,000 Americans died in '10 due to lack of health insurance. [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/20/deaths-health-insurance_n_1613600.html]

I used to find that kind of number alarming until I read how many deaths each year can be attributed to medical care:

Based on these figures, iatrogenesis may cause 225,000 deaths per year in the United States (excluding recognizable error).[17]

These estimates are lower than those in an earlier IOM report, which would suggest from 230,000 to 284,000 iatrogenic deaths.[17]

These figures are likely exaggerated, however, as they are based on recorded deaths in hospitals rather than in the general population. Even so, the large gap separating these estimates, deaths from cerebrovascular disease would still suggest that iatrogenic illness constitutes the third-leading cause of death in the United States; heart disease and cancer are the first- and second-leading causes of death, respectively.[17]

This means 10x as many people die as a result of seeking medical care than those who go without because they are uninsured. I've heard that the number of iatrogenic deaths is actually much higher because many go unreported.

This isn't a good argument for getting everyone enrolled in a medical insurance plan. It makes the whole death panel scare look more ridiculous than it already is.

Here is a link that might be useful: wikipedia


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

I would be happy to help repeal Obamacare! And the Democrats who forced it upon an unwilling public. Unfortunately, for now it's the law. Dems had all the power and abused it.

A bipartisan solution will require a new president. If Americans send Obama and his DEATH PANELS packing, we can start over and get it right. Hope this helps.


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RE: "We Need Death Panels..."

Help in crafting bipartisan solutions that get the economy growing again, for example.

I'm talking about JOBS, baby. Remember how you promised to help with JOBS if you won in 2010?


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