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Neck and neck

Posted by monablair none (My Page) on
Wed, Oct 10, 12 at 10:41

I participated in a Political Focus Group yesterday. We were a group of 29 voters who did not always vote along party lines. The group consisted of whites, blacks, hispanics and one oriental person. Our ages ranged from 24 years to 72 years and there were 15 women and 14 men.

It was an interesting discussion group. Some people voted for Obama and would do so again. Others voted for him in 2008 and would not this time. And others were still undecided but were leaning towards Romney based on his debate appearance. More women than men favored Romney..9 women and 7 men, but that's not a big difference.

The last question we were asked was who would we vote for if the election were held today. The numbers showed that Romney would get 16 of those votes and Obama would get 13.

Interestingly, the hispanic women favored Romney. The younger voters favored Obama. The older folks were concerned about Medicare and SS and were going with Romney. The younger women were concerned about abortions and birth control and were sticking with Obama.

Both candidates still have a lot of work to do.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Neck and neck

And it would seem the same in the larger public. Was it biased more towards questions or were people allowed to openly discuss?

I'm interested to see what changes will come in the debates (and interviews/ads) which are left. It'll truly be interesting to see if Romney will continue flip-flopping and maintain his mania and if Obama will change his ennui from the first time. I'd love to see Obama "get a backbone" at the debates, but I don't see it happening. If he did, it could change it all.


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RE: Neck and neck

We were initially asked some questions regarding issues of importance to each of us. Then as we answered, the group was free to add comments, ask further questions, and offer opinions as to whether a candidate's position on an issue was genuine or not. We just had open conversations with everyone participating. At first, people seemed a bit hesitant to really open up and express their true feelings, but that lasted only about 15 minutes and then we all were giving and taking. The session lasted 2 1/2 hours and it proved to be quite interesting.


I'm pleased I was able to be part of the group.


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  • Posted by momj47 7A..was 6B (My Page) on
    Wed, Oct 10, 12 at 11:54

OK, it's a good race, at least for the moment.

Now explain why older voters, concerned with Medicare and SS would vote for Romney? I think he and Ryan have made their position clear, and it's not a favorable one for we seniors.


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Thanks for sharing your experience, Monablair.

I am curious--were you castigated by the other participants, insulted and called names when you stated your positions?


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I agree, mom. If the older voters were concerned about Medicare and SS and favored Romney, then they don't understand the Romney/Ryan position on Medicare and SS--which is to "reform" them (as Romney-Ryan like to phrase it) by destroying Medicare and SS as we know them today and putting in their places new programs or processes that would eliminate most of the benefits and security of Medicare and SS and turn seniors loose on the "free market" waving a "voucher" that would only pay for part of what they need--and good luck paying the difference out of your own pocket if you can find a private insurer on your own that will provide a policy. Oh, but that large extra cost out of your own pocket--I forgot--you'll have to work well into your Senior years (no matter whether your health is up to it or not) because Social Security will no longer be there and you will have discovered too late that you should have been investing on Wall Street at about 10 times the amount you thought you will need in order to have a decent retirement income instead of Social Security--of course, that is assuming there is no severe depression that upsets the market and takes most of your too-small savings just a few years before you hoped to retire.

That Romney-Ryan program is why older voters voted for Romney? Someone please educate them quickly. They are about to chop off their own feet and dont' know it!

Kate


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RE: Neck and neck

Some people vote on principle and not their pocket book.

This country is going to have to make some BIG changes if we have a chance of digging out of this hole.

Smart and prudent people that plan for retirement have not done so depending entirely on social security.

We knew fifteen years ago it there was a good chance we couldn't depend on it.


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Well, I may have influenced them; I don't know.

Cutting down the costs of Medicare is being done by decreasing the reimbursements to providers and facilities. Procedures are being denied even though a a patient's personal MD says it is medically neccessary. It's the older patients who will suffer the consequences of the changes to the Medical system. As we get older, we'll need more care and will become liabilites to the system. We will be forced to do without what we need.

We are already having problems here with finding GYNs to take care of Medicare patients. This may be only the beginning of the demise of quality medical care.

Actually, we were all very tolerant of each others' opinions. The group that had the toughest time speaking out aginst Obama were the Black voters. They were initially hesitant to voice their opinions in front of the Blacks supporting Obama. They were the ones that were receiving the snide comments. However, once EVERYBODY realized snide comments weren't to be tolerated, then things went smoothly.

I think this was the makeup of the group; I'm not positive. I was more interested in the vote numbers than the group numbers.

10 Blacks- 5 men; 5 women
9 Hispanics-4 men; 5 women
1 Oriental- 1 man
9 Caucasians-4 men; 5 women


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I vote on principle... and my principles force me to vote for Obama, the candidate with real principles.

Honestly, I don't know how anyone considering themselves a rational thinker can align with a vulture capitalist. It makes no logical sense to vote AGAINST one's own best interests.


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jodi, I honestly want to know....

What do you consider BO's real principals to be? I just can't see them now. Once upon a time, I thought I saw them...but they've disappeared.


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Posted by demifloyd 8 (My Page) on Wed, Oct 10, 12 at 12:12

"1)Some people vote on principle and not their pocket book.
This country is going to have to make some BIG changes if we have a chance of digging out of this hole.

2)Smart and prudent people that plan for retirement have not done so depending entirely on social security.

We knew fifteen years ago it there was a good chance we couldn't depend on it."
*********************************************************

1) Yeah, I wish DUBYA would have never started this stupid, EXPENSIVE war.....ALL the lives-gone. Money-poof! Gone....and going.

2)NOT everyone worked for companies that gave pensions. In fact they are almost ALL dead. Kaput, no pension plans. Soc Sec IS thee only income some people have. Maybe it's their fault, or maybe they NEVER stepped in $ hit and got rich. Everybody should be rich....

btw- did you know that studies show that intelligence has nothing to do with being wealthy? I would think that LUCK, timing and opportunity would be the likely the cause of people striking it big...other than inheritance.

You will never get rich or have money for retirement if you're honest, work hard, pay your share of TAXES and bills.


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monablair none (My Page) on Wed, Oct 10, 12 at 10:41

The numbers showed that Romney would get 16 of those votes and Obama would get 13---------------Interestingly, the hispanic women favored Romney.
*****************************************
I still say that many voted on "looks" on TV, or maybe it was the FIRST TIME they heard Romney speak, so they didn't know about the many faces of Romney.

The Hispanic vote is very interesting because:
-Many are getting govt handouts (legal and illegal ones). They are lucky that Dems are not evil, and allow social service offices to spring up ;)

-HOWEVER, most Hispanics are Catholic and don't believe in birth control. This plays into the GOP philosophy....except that they don't want to pay for WELFARE.

I'm not in favor of paying for someone's birth control, but if we don't try to stop it BEFORE one gets pregnant, those SOCIAL SERVICE OFFICES will explode, children will go hungry....meanwhile the stupid "children multiplying" parents will chant that Jesus will provide....grrrr


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Smart and prudent people that plan for retirement have not done so depending entirely on social security.

Again, you either don't hear or just ignore what I said.

I was talking about people who have retirement accounts as well as SS, as well as those who end up--for whatever reason--with only SS.

Most younger people I talk to have no idea how much money they should be saving for their retirement. By my estimate, they need to up that number by times 10--I'm serious! Plus, if you work for a place like Enron (wasn't that the name of that place?), you'll find they ripped you off and even if you were putting enough money in towards your retirement, there is no money (or very little) left in your retirement account. And those are just a couple things that can go wrong as you approach those retirement years and find you can't fully rely on retirement savings alone.

And some people have worse stories about what happens over the course of 5 decades or so.

You've heard , haven't you--the best laid plans for mice and men often go astray (excuse me, Robbie Burns, for updating the language). If things have not gone stray for you, be thankful--but a good portion of the world finds that plans often do go astray.

And so what if some dummy didn't think to save any money. Are you going to be the person who throws that derelict 75 year old out on the streets to fend for herself? Come on--get real! A civilized society doesn't operate that way.

Kate


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I didn't ignore you, Kate.

I just made a statement that had nothing to do with you or what you posted.

There were no statements made by me even suggesting anything about throwing out 75 year old derelicts on the streets to fend for themselves.

I know better than many people how unexpected events can change a person's life.


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Greece, Spain, Italy...all civilized countries, but look at how the people have taken to the streets rioting because their economy has failed.

Civilized behavior? I don't think so.

Could this be in our future?


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What are Obama's principles? I guess you'd have to actually listen when he speaks, and watch how he interacts with his family and other people, and accept his list of accomplishments as positive ones, and realize that his priorities match those of the average American, and a host of other observances. Of course, it does help immensely to garner one's information from the horse's mouth and from other reliable, objective sources instead of filling up on propaganda.

It's more than a little obvious that the Republican party doesn't hold any such principles or have similar priorities.

I think it's safe to say that our esteemed President doesn't hold principles that in any way reflect those of the far right, which is a very good thing.

He wants everyone to have access to health care, doesn't see a need to bring us into yet more wars, wants to level the playing field so everyone has the same opportunities, realizes how important it is to maintain our environment and move toward alternate forms of energy, realizes how important education is, and realizes what it will take to help the nation recover adequately from the sins of past Republicans, who successfully brought us to the brink of the economic cliff and kicked us over the edge.

And yes, it's still acceptable to lay blame at BushCo's feet as history does not go away just because it's not what you want to hear. It really happened.

The rational, thinking mind has a difficult time wrapping itself around the animosity held toward our esteemed President.


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It very well could be if Romney wins and there is a Republican Congress.

The hardships on the low and middle classes as a result of government cut backs to social programmes, lack of healthcare, corporate deregulation that will allow them to even more freely take American jobs and corporate profits out of the country, disenfranchising of the minority communities all while the wealthy get wealthier.

It very well could happen.


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I'm sick of hearing this level the playing field BS. Tell me who in this country that does not have the same opportunity as the next guy? So we are not all born to be millionaires nor or we all born to be middle class or poor. You insult the millions who have come up from the worst of life's conditions to become successful. I could hand a million dollars to some loser who has been on welfare all her life and guess what, she'll squander the money and still be on welfare. You don't get it, people are who they are and that is not my fault or Romney's fault. I do not want to be a millionaire nor do I want to be poor. I'm sick of hearing that everyone should be the same. I'm sick and tired of people who keep telling me my country needs to be changed. This is my country and I like it just the way it is.

How badly did you screw up your life that you think everyone should be brought down to your level?


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I'm sick of hearing this level the playing field BS. Tell me who in this country that does not have the same opportunity as the next guy? So we are not all born to be millionaires nor or we all born to be middle class or poor. You insult the millions who have come up from the worst of life's conditions to become successful. I could hand a million dollars to some loser who has been on welfare all her life and guess what, she'll squander the money and still be on welfare. You don't get it, people are who they are and that is not my fault or Romney's fault. I do not want to be a millionaire nor do I want to be poor. I'm sick of hearing that everyone should be the same. I'm sick and tired of people who keep telling me my country needs to be changed. This is my country and I like it just the way it is.
How badly did you screw up your life that you think everyone should be brought down to your level?

OH EM GEE

I am literally speechless right now...

Are you sick and tired of hearing that everyone in YOUR country should be afforded the same rights and freedoms as well? Please, elaborate on your psycho-babble.


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I'm sick of hearing that everyone should be the same.

Now, how did you get that out of wanting a level playing field? Nobody that I've seen on this board, or anywhere else for that matter, has said that everyone should be the same.

But, just because you're poor should not mean you shouldn't have the opportunity to better yourself. It doesn't mean you shouldn't have healthcare. It doesn't mean you shouldn't have the opportunity to go to college if you have the desire.

Not everyone will take the same advantage, but everyone should be given the chance.

And, I guess you've missed all the news about the growing gap between the 1% and the rest of us? Or, maybe that's ok with you. If you're rich, you're good. If you're not, it gets harder and harder to stay above water. Not the type of society I want to be part of.


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I like the free enterprise system. I think the less fortunate should be given assistance and they should be encouraged to get to the point that they can support themselves. I don't want to be their means of support. If that means I'm against the redistribution of wealth, then that's where I'm at.

Imagine a rowboat out in the middle of the ocean. Some people are in it and they see other persons in the water asking to be lifted in to the rowboat. At first all is well and the boat is afloat. Soon others appear in the water and ask to come on board. One by one they come on board, but soon the boat is riding low in the water. Another group of people climb into the boat and the boat is in serious trouble and will sink if another person climbs on board.

What do you do? Sacrifice everybody by attempting to save everyone? or save those you can?

This is a simple story to describe what is happening to our country by trying to save everybody through government programs. What is the answer? Is there one?


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To me a level playing field means no more than having equal access to a quality education, good health care and a safe and supportive environment that enables that.

The issue is conservatives think that exists today and liberals know it doesn't.


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How badly did you screw up your life that you think everyone should be brought down to your level?

How easily did you live yours that you think others shouldn't have the very same opportunities to rise to your level?


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I am guessing that Romney will win the election for this reason - the polls of 'likely voters" are always several points better for him that the same poll taken of all voters. So why are Romneys voters more likely to vote? The answer is simple. They have the strongest emotional reasons to vote. Hatred for Obama is their leading reason. Greed follows that along with religious, racial, ethnic and gender resentment.


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by monablair none (My Page) on Wed, Oct 10, 12 at 16:31

I like the free enterprise system. I think the less fortunate should be given assistance and they should be encouraged to get to the point that they can support themselves. I don't want to be their means of support. If that means I'm against the redistribution of wealth, then that's where I'm at.
Imagine a rowboat out in the middle of the ocean. Some people are in it and they see other persons in the water asking to be lifted in to the rowboat. At first all is well and the boat is afloat. Soon others appear in the water and ask to come on board. One by one they come on board, but soon the boat is riding low in the water. Another group of people climb into the boat and the boat is in serious trouble and will sink if another person climbs on board.

What do you do? Sacrifice everybody by attempting to save everyone? or save those you can?

This is a simple story to describe what is happening to our country by trying to save everybody through government programs. What is the answer? Is there one?

*************************************************
I agree with you to a point. Your philosophy is good, and fair (in this post), but what happened after the job outsourcing is unemployment. What do you do with all those people? Keep in mind, the politicians are sleeping with these corporations(mostly Reps). You have to start slowly with govt stimulus (because you have NO power to tell a company that it cannot move out). Once some people go back to work, let's say for the Fed or state gov, they will start purchasing. Then those stores will hire more...etc.

We are all arguing here, but the bottom line it is GREED that is destroying this country. The rest are trying to survive. GREED has to be curtailed a little, and others have to get a chance to make it.

Ironically, many who TAKE govt programs are going to vote for Romney, because they want to look , or have money like him. Yup, that's the mentality-he'll rub off on them.

I say we need laws to keep at least the TAXDOLLAR JOBS in the US (military mfg). Infrastructure, and alt energy can be supported, at first by the govt. Our people will get opportunites, get a paycheck and we'll pay the debt off. Let's teach the kids in high school to go into math, science and technology majors. THis could stop the HB-1 Visas (foreighners getting our good jobs). Stop the immigration, and def do the birth control thing.

Able to work bodies need to do community services part-time while they are on the dole. Local govt is broke. Go help out at the library or your town hall. Moms with kids need to share their babysitting and contribute to society, too. There should be NO free lunch for able people.


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1 Oriental

Monablair, do you always go around using offensive terms to characterize people. You have done so twice this week alone.

Noun 1. oriental person - a member of an Oriental race; the term is regarded as offensive by Asians (especially by Asian Americans)


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I apologize...again. But tell me why it is offensive? I hear this all the time around here and nobody takes offense. I buy food at the "Oriental Market" around the corner. The family named their store and if they can use those words, what makes it wrong for others?

Do I just associate with a bunch of clods that use the wrong words to describe people groups?

What should I have said instead? I'm starting to feel like Joe Biden.


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jodik, for you to say that the way Obama interacts with his family indicates he has principals, that implies that Romney doesn't interact well with his family and therefore has no principals. What do you think this man does? Beat his wife and kids? Lock them in a closet?

The man is church going, doesn't drink, smoke, gamble and stands by his wife through her illnesses, raises 5 kids who have never been in trouble...No Principals?

But, we have The Other, who admits to smoking pot and doing other drugs, associates with radicals and has Jeremiah as his mentor. That really shows a lot about his principals, doesn't it?

And where do you come up with the notion that Republicans have no principals? We just don't agree with your opinions and that makes us without principals? Get real!


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Mona..don't apologize. This crowd is going to jump on anything you say and try to belittle you.
You do not have to change your speech or the way you put it out for a few .
Trust me....you will get tromped for just about anything you say . Because you are not an Obama supporter. That alone puts you in the "enemy" camp. :)

I hear the mantra on here all the time. "Level the playing
field". Blast the low-down wealthy. How dare the wealthy
be rich. Distribute the wealth.

Most of the American people do have the same level playing field. Some of the wealthy wealthy....started right where
we did folks. At the bottom.

Look at yourself. Did you come from wealth?
Do you have a good education? Did someone pay your way through college? Graduate school? Give you anything?

If you got married young....did someone give you a house?
Pay your bills or did you do it yourself.

Most of us start from one field and we make the home run
with whatever determination and grit we have in us.
Its our choice.

I don't care if you are from the bottom of the pile or
from wealth....you are only a success if it is measured by what is inside you and what you made happen .

I know where and what I came from and I can assure you
no one gave any of us anything but a stable, loving home.
Poor farmers is what we were.

All clawed , crawled, sweated and starved to get where
we all are today. The home run was and is beyond what dreams are made of. For all of my family.

I get tired of hearing..level playing field.
I get tired of hearing the same for all.

BS. we all have the SAME CHANCE folks. Its called work for
it, work for it like your life depends on it because it
does.


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Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, VA benefits, welfare, unemployment , and other social programs benefit countless Americans during their lives and make us into the people and into the country that we are - a nation of shared sacrifice and shared wealth where we make certain that we treat all of our citizens with the dignity that they deserve.
The stereotype that Romney and Ryan are selling along with other GOPers about moochers and welfare queens is old and tired.
47% of people are moochers according to Romney. Ryan is selling this notion that those who need public assistance are flawed and have no degree personal responsibility. Ryan and Romney are guys who were raised in wealthy homes and have no idea what it is like for a family or an individual to struggle financially and to have to rely on assistance. They think that living on or relying on government programs is a lifestyle that it is fun and that people choose that because they lack personal responsibility. They have no idea what they are talking about.


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heri, I agree that many people relying on government programs are trying to become independent and self-sufficient. But you must admit that there are others who do like being cared for and have no intention of changing the way they live. Those people have to be "encouraged" to change their way of thinking.

The 47% Romney said he couldn't worry about.....I believe he meant those words to say he couldn't worry about getting their votes because they'd vote for Omama no matter what. And I believe he is correct.


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Boo Frickety Hoo.

We DO all have the ability to do what we want.

With the exception of the disabled and those that have to care for them (and this is not true of ALL disabled people--many of them follow their dreams and are successful in every way they wish to be), people define what kind of lives they have by the decisions they make.

No one says it is easy, but as I've said before, if you can't make it in this country, it's your own fault.

We are primarily a product of our decisions and how well we cope with the things we can't control.


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I love compassion. It makes me feel so warm inside.

"Boo Frickety Hoo.
We DO all have the ability to do what we want.

With the exception of the disabled and those that have to care for them"

What about children?
How could anyone accuse you of not being compassionate after the beautiful sentiments above?


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....how well we cope with the things we can't control.

So when you're an 8 yr old from a broken home headed into some gawd awful school district on academic probation, you can cope by educating yourself at the library.

Which gives you the same opportunities as Obama's kids attending Sidwell Friends or Romney's kids attending Belmont Hill, both private schools with a tuition around $40,000 a year.


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Posted by citywoman2012 none (My Page) on Wed, Oct 10, 12 at 18:41
know where and what I came from and I can assure you
no one gave any of us anything but a stable, loving home.
Poor farmers is what we were.

*****************************************************
Ahhh, farm subsidies and tax brakes(read yout tax manual. I know because I made a mistake once. The IRS wanted more FARM info from me. If I had a farm, I would have gotten all my money back.) from the government that OTHERS had to pay for. Just sayin.

On another note: I believe in personal responsibilty, or NOT allowing people who have not paid into the system into the mainland US and collect goodies from us the taxpayers.

Again, MANY who want to work, and believe in personal responsibilty don't have jobs because the politicians SOLD this country out, thanks to the GREED. Now it's time to fix it. See? it's a circular argument.

And yes there is a group of people who are unmotivated. That has been going on for centuries. The difference today is that you can get more from the govt than you can make working. AGAIN, because of the GOOD PAYING job outsourcing. The new jobs don't pay much.

Washington cannot just allow this country to be sold and rely on small business, which pays minimum wage and no health ins. C'mon people, get real. And NO, Romney will NOT fix it- *see BAIN.


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Having the faith that people can and will pull themselves up by their bootstraps and giving these same people a strong nudge to do so doesn't make a person non-compassionate. But it does make them less of a sucker who'll fall for every sob story. There's a difference.

Personally, I don't mind helping those who really need help, but I want to know the money is going to feed their kids, put a roof over their heads and that these people aren't home doing drugs with "our money". iknow, I know...you're going to say I'm assuming the worst. But the fact is, that is true for some people.

So, why can't passing a drug test before accepting the monthly check be a requirement?
Why can't job training be a requirement?

I'm going to throw something out here that will enrage some of you. But this is from my friend, Lillie. You know, the one who had the nerve to utter the words, "N dialect".

She thinks that if an unwed mother needs government help, then it should be a one child deal. If the mother gets pregnant again, in order to get government assistance she must agree to a sterilization procedure. Should she refuse, then no additional money will be handed out for the 2nd child and any other children that should follow.

Harsh, but this is coming from an African-American woman who lives in this reality. She is fed up with households that consist of different generations that are continuing to perpetuate this kind of life.

I don't know how many of you live in this kind of community, but my friend does. She feels that this is the only way to stop this lifestyle and the dependence on the government.

What would you say to her? Would you call her names and tell her she's insensitive? Remember, she's a Romney supporter. She's also the wife of a well-respected local Minister and many of his congregation members feel this way, too.


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Mona, why don't you give us recorded examples of your statement above instead of anecdotal examples? Anyone can make up any story that supports their argument. Have I missed where you provided proof of your story? Otherwise the information is next to worthless on a message board.


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RE: Neck and neck

frank, how would I give recorded examples of many conversations with a friend? I'm not a journalist nor do I record or film social discussions. Is this something you commonly do?


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Ok then, I had a conversation last week with God who said that I should vote for the incumbent (after all, you do call him "the One"). Apparently, since I have said it on this message board it must be true.

God has to trump your "friend".


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RE: Neck and neck

I apologize...again. But tell me why it is offensive? I hear this all the time around here and nobody takes offense. I buy food at the "Oriental Market" around the corner. The family named their store and if they can use those words, what makes it wrong for others?

Instead of continuing to have to apologize every time you offend why don't you educate yourself BEFORE you post?

This isn't new. The term has been offensive for many years. You should get out more or at least read things besides rightwing propaganda.

The Oriental Market you frequent is a thing, not a person. There are Oriental Studies Departments at Universities and it is also still an acceptable term in some countries just not here in the US. Many Asians find it offensive so if you want to continue to insult people then go ahead and use it like CW encourages. Rugs are Oriental. Tommy Tang, for instance, would be Asian or Asian-American.


Law Bans Use of "Oriental" in State Documents
By SEWELL CHAN and JENNIFER 8. LEE

More than three decades after the term "Asian American" or "Asian Pacific Islander" began to supplant "Oriental" in government documents, not to mention common usage, some New York State records still use the antiquated term.

Governor Paterson said in a statement:
The words we use matter. We in government recognize that what we print in official documents or forms sets an example of what is acceptable. With this legislation, New York is not the first state to pass such a law. In 2002, Washington State banned the word "Oriental" in state documents.

"The world "Oriental" is not inherently negative," said Frank H. Wu, a law professor at Howard University and the author of "Yellow: Race in America Beyond Black and White" (Basic Books, 2001). While the term oriental has a geographical meaning - eastern - words, especially in a racialized context, carry connotations beyond their literal definitions.

"It's associated with a time period when Asians had a subordinate status," Professor Wu said. He said that the term was associated with exoticism and with old stereotypes of geisha girls and emasculated men. "Oriental" is like the word "negro". It conjures up an era."

Do you understand now?

Do I just associate with a bunch of clods that use the wrong words to describe people groups?

Apparently so.

Mona..don't apologize. This crowd is going to jump on anything you say and try to belittle you.
You do not have to change your speech or the way you put it out for a few .
Trust me....you will get tromped for just about anything you say . Because you are not an Obama supporter.

WRONG again CW. This has nothing to do with Obama and everything to do with using a characterization that many Asian Americans find derogatory. You don't get to decide what is offensive to others. You also don't seem to care who you continue to insult and now you are publically encouraging others to behave as abhorrently as you.

Mona, You can do what you want but I posted why many people find the word offensive and derogatory when used to refer to a person. So it is your choice. You can listen to CW and continue to offend or you can educate yourself. Perhaps you should eduate your clods friends too.


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RE: Neck and neck

Oriental

Esh, I thought she meant an Egyptian-American or such -- she didn't? "Oriental" means from the Near East.

Mona, I'm having a hard time figuring out how you feel about the poor and disadvantaged. First you say
I could hand a million dollars to some loser who has been on welfare all her life and guess what, she'll squander the money and still be on welfare. You don't get it, people are who they are
vs
Having the faith that people can and will pull themselves up by their bootstraps

Which is your real opinion? Are poor people incapable of changing, as you charge others here of not "getting", or are they capable of pulling themselves up by their bootstraps? Those are two pretty extreme and contradictory views of human nature.


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RE: Neck and neck

How easily did you live yours that you think others shouldn't have the very same opportunities to rise to your level?
========================================================
You just proved my point, they do have the very same opportunities. I grew up very poor and started work at the age of 17 while still in high school. I never have had my hand out to anyone. Planned for my future, didn't expect the government to take care of me when I grew old or sick. You plan for your future, it shouldn't just "happen."

The disabled, old, homeless and mentally ill are the people who should be taken care of, but somehow they are not because we're spending millions, if not billions on taking care of able bodied people who just play the system and don't want to work.


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RE: Neck and neck

I am guessing that Romney will win the election for this reason - the polls of 'likely voters" are always several points better for him that the same poll taken of all voters. So why are Romneys voters more likely to vote? The answer is simple. They have the strongest emotional reasons to vote. Hatred for Obama is their leading reason. Greed follows that along with religious, racial, ethnic and gender resentment

=========================================================

And they call us racists and bigots. It's not hatred for Obama, it is total mistrust, get your insults straight. None of the reasons you list are reasons why I'm voting for Romney. I know you'd like to compartmentalize us, but I'm afraid you're off base on me. I can't speak for others, but I'm pretty sure none of those reasons would apply to the other conservatives on this board either.

Furthermore, can you explain what the heck is "gender resentment?" That's a new one for me, never heard of that. You libs can come up with lots of nasty adjectives to describe the conservatives. Wow, what a vocabulary.


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RE: Neck and neck

"I could hand a million dollars to some loser who has been on welfare all her life and guess what, she'll squander the money and still be on welfare. You don't get it, people are who they are "
vs
"Having the faith that people can and will pull themselves up by their bootstraps"

I didn't make the first comments. I did say the second sentence about pulling themselves up by their bootstraps.

I believe people are capable of changing but some people will never change if they get too comfotable in their bad habits. I think some people need to be nudged out of their comfort zones, encouraged to stretch for something out of their reach.
I also think we're spending too much money on the people who are milking the system. They need to be weeded out.


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RE: Neck and neck

" thethe 47% Romney said he couldn't worry about.....I believe he meant those words to say he couldn't worry about getting their votes because they'd vote for Omama no matter what. And I believe he is correct."

Mona, is it your contention that the entire 47% that Romney was referring to will all vote for President Obama?

Romney also said that the 47% paid no taxes and thought they were entitled to government handouts.

That means all tax payers vote for Romney and all non tax payers vote for Obama..... that all Obama supporters are on some sort of government entitlement programme and all Romney supporters receive nothing in the way of social assistance. Is that what you are saying?


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RE: Neck and neck

Posted by circuspeanut 5 (My Page) on Wed, Oct 10, 12 at 20:11

"Oriental
Esh, I thought she meant an Egyptian-American or such -- she didn't? "Oriental" means from the Near East."

Who says she didn't mean just that? But even if she was referring to a person who she perceived as looking like they might be from Hawaii, what would be correct enough? To say "one person of the male gender with slightly slanted eyes whose skin wasn't quite Caucausian-looking, with very dark hair"? How about "a Chinese-looking guy"? She didn't say anything disparaging and epi knows that. Even if epi was a person in a position to take personal offense (and maybe epi is), it would be more reasonable to politely supply her with the information.


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RE: Neck and neck

She didn't say anything disparaging and epi knows that.

Willfully obtuse, ignorant or just inserting inane comments because...?


Epi KNOWS she did say something dispararaging. Epi posted the definition and other information that definitively shows that it is and why. What isn't clear?

Epi doesn't need elvis to tell epi what she knows. If epi wasn't clear the first time around here's what epi knows right from epi herself: Epi knows that Asians no longer want to be referred to as "Orientals" in this country. Epi knows that using that term is wrong and seen as offensive. Epi knows not to use it. Epi doesn't think others shoud use it either for reasons stated above. Get it? Epi can't be any clearer.

What Epi doesn't know is why anyone would insist on continuing to use it when they know it offends a group of people.

Even if epi was a person in a position to take personal offense (and maybe epi is), it would be more reasonable to politely supply her with the information.

Everyone is in a position to call out racist, offensive, bigoted or derogatory statements when they see/hear them. Epi saw that 2x this week Monablair used outdated, offensive words in her posts. Monablair asked for answers and epi gave them to her. Capeche?

I hope epi was clear because if you still can't grasp it epi can't help you.


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RE: Neck and neck

Epi, I'm sure you felt comfortable replying in such a rude manner because you're doing so under the cloak of anonymity. I imagine in the real world, you're a nicer person, at least I hope so. I suppose you could be called a closet bully.

I apologized..nicely. I asked for clarification...nicely. And instead of answering in like manner, you answered like an obnoxious jerk.

I never considered myself or our associates to be buffoons, but your words make me believe you think we are. Oh, I forgot..we're Republicans and we support Romney and that's what we are. We're stupid for our choice and our opinions.

Well, let me tell you what we're not. We're not attackers; we don't resort to name calling; and we were raised with manners. Something you obviously are not.

Now, before I throw all of the Democrats on this forum in the same garbage can, let me say that there are some here who are sensible, state their opinions in a calm manner, and ask/answer questions in in a friendly manner.

Unfortunately, Epi, you happen to be a person who gives people a bad impression of what an Obama supporter is...rude, uncultured, without manners, arrogant; pompous. And with your attitude you likely have a miserable life.

Wow! Such a piece of work you are!!!!! You can't even discuss issues; you have to resort to nit-picking over word choices because you have nothing worthwhile to say. You're pathetic.


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RE: Neck and neck

Mona, you are the epitome of a Romney supporter.
You know: a little bit older, a little confused, forgetful of who you voted for a few years ago, marginally racist (if not, about 20 years behind on racial vernacular), etc.


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RE: Neck and neck

chase, you've given me somrthing to think about.

Hmmm, do I think all 47% would vote for Obama? No, I don't.

"That means all tax payers vote for Romney and all non tax payers vote for Obama..... that all Obama supporters are on some sort of government entitlement programme and all Romney supporters receive nothing in the way of social assistance. Is that what you are saying?"

My choice of words did seem to suggest that and yet I don't feel that way at all.



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RE: Neck and neck

frank, I'm not the one who is hearing voices and imagines it is God speaking to me. Get help; you need it.


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RE: Neck and neck

You imagine minorities talk to you.


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RE: Neck and neck

You imagine minorities talk to you.


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RE: Neck and neck

You need a picture of me in a group setting talking with my friends and relatives that happen to be African American in order to have proof that I indeed speak with people who are not caucasian? I should tape record the conversations, too?

Why is it impossible for you to believe that I do associate with people like Lillie. Is it because you have no conversations with African Americans? Or don't have any as friends? What kind of isolated world do you live in?


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RE: Neck and neck

Mona, don't take Frank personally; he's actually very nice. Just cranky.


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RE: Neck and neck

you have to resort to nit-picking over word choices

What I am about to say may be due to regional or generational differences, or perhaps rural/semisuburban v urban enviroments, but the use of 'oriental' does feel like nails on a blackboard. I'm in a large, diverse (sprawling) urban environment, and 'oriental' is not a generally accepted term. First, the actual Asian country would most likely used as an identifier - Thai, Indian, Indonesian, Filipino, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, etc. Second (and perhaps from too much exposure to PC-speakers), Euro-centric terms to define other areas of the world as generally frowned upon. Third, I suspect that those living in less culturally diverse areas think that some of us are splitting hairs. (The same would be true for older persons.) Not true, it's from personal experience that I have learned about the importance of labels - who is assigning the label, and if the group bearing the label accepts it.


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RE: Neck and neck

nancy,I clearly used the word because I didn't know better. I apologized. But it seems that wasn't enough for someone on this Forum.

But tomorrow morning I will call my good friend to give her a heads up about the use of this word. She called me several days ago to announce her son's engagement to a beautiful Oriental girl. I don't want her getting off to a bad start with this girl and her family. So maybe some good came out of this, after all.


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RE: Neck and neck

Mona, apologies, my mistake; I mixed up yours and Molly's posts (which explains my confusion over your stance.) Never mind!

Re. "Oriental" - yes, Elvis, that's what I thought Mona meant: someone from Egypt, Morocco, etc, which is what the term refers to, although I haven't heard it used much at all outside of academic circles. How would one refer to someone who looked like they came from Hawaii? Um, how about saying "That Hawaiian-looking guy"? Your confoundedness makes no sense.

I haven't heard anyone use the term "Oriental" to refer to someone of Asian heritage in many many years. As Nancy explained, it's on par with using the term "colored" to refer to African-Americans. I'm assuming someone who does use it this way is a) older, b) lives somewhere with a really static and homogeneous population, c) is clueless/doesn't get out much or d) bigoted. I have no idea which might be the case for a random stranger on an internet board, and if she says she didn't realize the usage is offensive, it does seem a tad odd (Mona, you've really never realized it's not been used that way for decades?), but I have no reason to disbelieve her.


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RE: Neck and neck

It doesn't bode well for your credibility when you display talking out of both sides of your mouth as you did above. You must be dizzy.

One minute you are (falsely) proclaiming that you don't resort to name calling or personal attacks...

We're not attackers; we don't resort to name calling; and we were raised with manners.

...the next you launch into an all out personal attack and...well...name calling...

Unfortunately, Epi, you happen to be a person who gives people a bad impression of what an Obama supporter is...rude, uncultured, without manners, arrogant; pompous. And with your attitude you likely have a miserable life.

...while telling us what impeccable manners you have, yet displaying none. Actions speak louder than words. You are the one that posts all the drek not anyone else.

I hope your rant made you feel better. Sorry to disappoint you but my life can't get any better. I have everything I want, need and more. Your words only reflect what kind of person you are.

Perhaps as Nancy said it is a regional thing. I live in NYC and when I read your initial post with that characterization it was like nails across a chalkboard to me too. I posted the information that showed you why it was offensive. My other comments were to others, not you.

You called your own friends "clods" and told us that they use that phrase all the time. Not me. You are the one that came on here with guns blazing. Not me. You are the one that continues to use phrases and characterizations that reek of intolerance and/or ignorance. Not me.

Your entire rant was foolish.


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RE: Neck and neck

And all this being so highly offended with the word Oriental is coming from the same ones who call people from the south...red-necks, uneducated, ignorant and trash???

Mona, you are giving some of these folks waaaay to much lee-way on this one.

These same people can throw out derogatory adjectives
like poison spears.

Just wait...you haven't heard anything yet.


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RE: Neck and neck

is coming from the same ones who call people from the south...red-necks, uneducated, ignorant and trash???

CW, I have never used those terms or characterizations. You should know better than to make that charge against me.


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RE: Neck and neck

The only time in recent history I heard the term Oriental was in reference to rugs. It's very out -dated and as offensive to Asians as Negro is to blacks.


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Posted by monablair none (My Page) on Wed, Oct 10, 12 at 19:44

She thinks that if an unwed mother needs government help, then it should be a one child deal. If the mother gets pregnant again, in order to get government assistance she must agree to a sterilization procedure. Should she refuse, then no additional money will be handed out for the 2nd child and any other children that should follow.
***********************************************************

Forget about antiquated ethnic terms, we have a call for forced sterilization from mona's African-American friend. Free birth control, no, Government sterilization, yes. Now there's a concept to eliminate poverty.


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RE: Neck and neck

Thank you for answering my question Mona. Sounds like a productive and fun event.


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RE: Neck and neck

I have two adopted Asian nieces, their parents are very sensitive to the word Oriental and find it offensive when used to describe their daughters.

However I can reasonably understand how someone who is not regularly exposed to the Asian culture may not know that , especially if they are a little "older".


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RE: Neck and neck

chase,I've learned a lot about labels here. Thanks for the tone of your comment.


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RE: Neck and neck

Don't be so paranoid, CW. Nobody who has addressed this question of the use of 'Oriental' with Mona has ever referred to folks from the American South as any of those equally offensive terms you mention.


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RE: Neck and neck

Don't be so paranoid, CW. Nobody who has addressed this question of the use of 'Oriental' with Mona has ever referred to folks from the American South as any of those equally offensive terms you use

Indeed.

CW keep your falsehoods to yourself. I have never used the term redneck, ignorant, trash or uneducated to describe people from the south. You cannot find one instance where I have.


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RE: Neck and neck

Neck and neck... yeah, it's surface shine versus depth; charisma versus intelligence. Let's all root for polish and charisma and lies, cause those are great leadership qualities... not!


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RE: Neck and neck

Gee, I must have been living under a rock since I've read things about "the Orient". It was used in a positive way, as in mysterious, better than other parts of the world. Great things were brought to other parts of the world from the "Orient".

Although, I'm not a senior citizen (lol)I'd like to know what phrase to use Today...when someone would say "she's Oriental", it was synonymous with being pretty. Go figure!

To me, being Oriental is like someone saying they are Slavic....only prettier.lol


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RE: Neck and neck

Notto, why not just say Asian?

To me, saying 'the Oriental' brings to mind bright orange sweet-sour pork and the sound of stylized gongs, just as 'the Negro' recalls earnest young men with ironed hair in sociology books of the 1930's. The terms were not offensive when used in their time, but our cultural awareness as a society has grown exponentially since then.

These things are also all so context-specific. In Germany, 'Asian' generally means you're from India or Mongolia, and 'Oriental' means you're from what we call the Middle East. Even the terms Near East and Middle East are American and (obviously) not just incorrect but puzzling if used in other places of the world.


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RE: Neck and neck

Posted by circuspeanut 5 (My Page) on Thu, Oct 11, 12 at 16:20

Notto, why not just say Asian?
To me, saying 'the Oriental' brings to mind bright orange sweet-sour pork and the sound of stylized gongs, just as 'the Negro' recalls earnest young men with ironed hair in sociology books of the 1930's. The terms were not offensive when used in their time, but our cultural awareness as a society has grown exponentially since then.

These things are also all so context-specific. In Germany, 'Asian' generally means you're from India or Mongolia, and 'Oriental' means you're from what we call the Middle East. Even the terms Near East and Middle East are American and (obviously) not just incorrect but puzzling if used in other places of the world.

********************************************************

I usually say Asian, only because my neighbors who are Chinese say Asian. But honestly I had no idea that Oriental was derogatory. I guess some things are regional.

A friend of mine called a black person- African American. He got offended because he was NOT from Africa. He was just black from S. America, he said.

I think we're getting carried away with political correctness. I've even met women who jump all over you if you say Mrs. and they are Ms. now....lol


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RE: Neck and neck

  • Posted by bboy USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA (My Page) on
    Thu, Oct 11, 12 at 19:01

While in England I once had the displeasure of being informed by my host - a retired medical doctor who had worked in research at the cellular level* - that when he made a reference to "WOGs" that it stood for Weird Oriental Gentleman.

"You see, we don't have that politically correct nonsense ovuh heah".

"We also have Niggahs heah".

So yes, "Oriental" when applied to persons can have a very definite negative context - that is not something new or obscure.

*Once again, emotion over information: the guy worked in medicine and had studied people on the cellular level yet still was motivated by something to indulge in the most hidebound, stale and tiresome bigotry.


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RE: Neck and neck

I didn't point at you nancy, epip, or circusp.
I wasn't even thinking of anyone of you .
My apologies to you on this regard if you felt targeted.
On this count ....you are innocent.
***********************************************************
Posted by lily316 z5PA (My Page) on Sat, Sep 1, 12 at 13:46

Like mylab, I stand by every word I said about the trashy redneck family. People like that multiply like flies while the bright educated middle /upper class usually contain their families which is why America is dumbing down at such a rapid rate. This BooBOO crowd has the four kids and the knocked up 16 year old is on her way to further this. Meanwhile my highly educated kids each have one kid and the largest family among their educated friends is two. So fear for America and I'm off to the woods too....


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RE: Neck and neck

Guilty and my words perfectly describe this family.


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