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Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Posted by YogaLady1948 none (My Page) on
Wed, Oct 17, 12 at 11:46

I am going to say it anyway even if it gets taken off~~I have felt this way in 2008 about Romney and feel it now even stronger since he actually may be my president~~I would never vote for him #1 because he is a Mormon never has mattered to me what he says about anything he wants to do as president it is all BLAHBLAH to me. I come from Mormon people and have great respect for them as far as how they help their own and the goodness in them. A few years back I started researching anti Mormon sites and WOW what an eye opener to me as to their insider paractices.

Women are subservient to the men~~~when the Repubs bring on the stories of Romney doing all his good works for people going and sitting with a family whose child is dying and helping him write his will~~giving money to another child for college~~~those are Mormon folks I bet he did it for and that is what a Bishop or Elder in the church would do~~they help their own. The LDS church is one of the richest in our country.

Then when they added Ryan to the ticket and he says he can not separate his 'religion from his public life'~~~and they are both so anti women. To me at the age of 64 with daughters and granddaughters. The choice is clear for me~~~~OBAMA


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

It isn't off limits here.

But even if they were better qualified you still vote against them, merely because of their religion? Really?


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

I don't really care what his religion is as long as he keeps it to himself. But the minute his religion starts affecting his political decisions, I'm 100% opposed, regardless of what religion he is. I would be 100% opposed to a mixture of religion and politics even if he were a Methodist or Catholic or Baptist or any other religion. Keep religion (of any variety) separate from our politics!

I think most of us agree that Romney 's attitudes toward women are not particularly pro-woman and sometimes are what we would consider anti-women. That makes the choice clear for many of us--OBAMA--just like Yoga said.

Kate


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

You have said what many of us have said. The R&R ticket is the worst for women. We have said we cannot understand how any woman could vote for Romney.

The ticket is a outdated 50s barefoot, pregnant, in the kitchen waiting for the husband to give you an allowance woman idea.

Not my idea of life. Not the way I have lived my life.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

I think what YogaLady is saying is that both Romney and Ryan have their religion so deeply ingrained into their system that policy decisions would be affected.

Romney - women are subservient
Ryan - pro-life stance means getting rid of the ability to have an abortion


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Not off limits at all.
Ryan is a cafeteria Catholic as I've pointed out before. If he can't separate his religion from the job he could never handle the Presidency & carry out the required use of launch codes for nuclear first strike or nuclear defense.
"Nuclear deterrence as a national
policy must be condemned as morally abhorrent because it is
the excuse and justification for the continued possession and further development of these horrendous weapons. "
The church goes on a lot about gay marriage & abortion but sweeps this one under the rug all too often along with a lot of Politicians who are Catholic in name!
The position of the Church is quite clear on NUCLEAR WEAPONS as well as first strike wars!


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

I don't care what his religion is either as long as your governing decisions aren't ruled by it. Because then it begins to affect me and I won't tolerate being ruled by someone else's religion.

I wouldn't vote against them Because of their religion but I will vote against them if they govern by their religion.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

I saw this in our local paper, and was going to post it, and this thread is appropriate:

"Republicans say the polls are skewed, until they show their guy in the lead. Then the polls are clearly right and we should all take note! Democrats panic when the polls fluctuate in the least bit and start using words like "outlier" and "anomaly" (liberal words for skewed). We've never had more polls or more ways to compile polls and the controversy over their accuracy has never been higher.

Yes, it's election season and along with the primetime presidential debates, everyone wants to debate poll numbers.

But there's another poll warranting even greater scrutiny: A Pew Research Foundation report just released claims they found 20 percent of Americans do not identify themselves as religious. This, according to the foundation, is up from 2007 when the number was just over 15 percent. In the 30 years of age and under category, it's 33 percent - a third of younger Americans will tell pollsters they're not religious at all.

Just to put this into perspective, 19 percent of Americans are white evangelicals and 22 percent identify as Catholic. Their numbers are now on par with the "unaffiliated" and yes (gasp) atheists.

But here's the problem when pollsters ask Americans about our religion: We lie. When someone with a clipboard asks us about our belief in god and our church attendance we give the answer we think we should instead of the truth. According to the Pew study in 2012, 73 percent of Americans were religious and 68 percent said that religion plays an important role in their lives. According to Pew: "[American religious importance] is far higher than in Britain (17 percent), France (13 percent), Germany (21 percent) or Spain (22 percent)."

How do we know Americans are embellishing their churchiness en masse? If 37 percent of Americans went to church weekly or more and 33 percent went monthly/yearly, you know what you'd see at churches? Lines of people. A hundred million people every single Sunday. Instead churches (even iconic mega-churches) are going bankrupt and the pews are collecting dust instead of donations.

No, when it comes to self-reporting religious devotion Americans cannot be trusted.

We underestimate our calories, overstate our height, under-report our weight and when it comes to piety, we lie like a prayer rug.

A different study at the University of Michigan looked at the rate of self-reported church attendance by Americans in contrast with actual attendance. "America maintains a gap of 10 to 18 percentage points between what people say they do on survey questions, and what time diary data says they actually do," said the report.

Which means Americans attend church as frequently as (gasp) Europeans. Only unlike those heathen Europeans, we feel the need to say we're in church when we're actually watching the NFL. In short: Americans attend "church." Wink. Wink. Air quotes.

On the other hand, there's no evidence people are telling pollsters they're atheists and then secretly go to church. The deceit is one-sided.

So if we have been consistently over-reporting our religiosity by 10 to 18 percentage points, it's reasonable to suggest this current estimate of non-religious Americans to be at 20 percent, could actually be closer to 38 percent. Which is on par with the largest religious group in the U.S., Protestant at 42 percent.

What does this mean? It means the non-believers, agnostic, non-theists, secularists, spiritual but not religious, and moral without mythology folks could be the actual silent majority.

It's possible we're completely surrounded. Shh." end quote

Here is a link that might be useful: linky


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

I don't think it's religion, per se'... it's the question of whether or not they will want to bring those beliefs into legislation. That's what people are against, and rightly so.

Into the very fabric of our Constitution is woven the idea that we each have a right to believe and practice religion as we wish. This includes not believing or practicing if we wish. Therefore, it's in everyone's best interests if religion remain out of the political and legislative picture.

It comes to our ears on a regular basis that some Republican politician or other has written a bill that includes religious beliefs, or has spouted some nonsense regarding his or her private god and beliefs and how legislating morality... to put it succinctly... is of great benefit. It's not.

What would be of the best benefit is if all political figures would keep their personal, private religious beliefs to themselves. If they have trouble separating that area of life from their jobs, then they are in the wrong business.

I think it's safe to say that we'd like our Constitution upheld, not torn apart for the personal comfort of some supposed representative.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

esh, you said it better than yoga did. It made me get a better grasp of the underlying.

I can see what you're all saying. Understand it and really agree with it. However, and I'm not saying religion of any sort should guide them, I would like to know what should guide a President to their decisions? Beyond "common sense", because what is common sense to one isn't to another. That's too subjective. What is best for the country, even if they don't want it? Emancipation and then equal rights, along with the IRS, as examples. What is most economically stable? How?!


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Yes Esh that is what I am saying their religion runs their agendas~~~

Rob no I would not usually even think about a persons religion~~~BUT~~~knowing what I know about Romneys and what Ryan has said about his, it is all big red flags to me, esp for women. I have not since 2008 believed Romeny can or will keep religion out of his decisions~~~I do not want the 'Prophet' of the LDS Church to have power over my president. Rob being LDS is not 'merely' being in a church it is a whole way of thinking and your life style here on earth and in your after life~~~AKA 'Celestial Kingdoms' as they call it.

I can not do a hot link but go to www.mormonwiki.com it explains the three Kingdoms~~~


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

I don't think Romney can separate his religion from his political life. I think it actually is the raison d'etre for his political life. We know Paul Ryan can't separate them because he flat-out said so.

That's a very dangerous thing for our country - it's American Sharia, but under the guise of the Constitution.


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David I am in no way religious~~~I am respectful of all~~I am an Independant voter~~My SIL says says I am a hippy, dippy, vegetarian, tree hugging, liberal. I do think for myself and all that I say here is how I have felt about Romney since 2008~~~I am a Peaceful person BUT love having found this site to say what I feel about that DAM Romney guy ;)

Namaste


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Yes, I understand now. I just didn't get it.

Yes, red flags. Totally!


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Rob-everyone should have his or her own moral compass. You have to judge your presidential material based on what they actually do, not on what they say. These days it is fairly easy to track a persons actual deeds. That way you can judge whether or not that person has the same moral standards that you do-regardless of their self proclaimed religious beliefs. George W. Bush was a great liar and yet a self proclaimed fundamentalist God fearing man. By taking the country to war based on what he knew to be lies he proved himself to have no moral compass that I could discern. Tens of thousands of people died for his lies. Reelecting such a man to a second term was to my mind an act of national insanity. Romney and Obama have plain track records on what they do in positions of power. While I have serious problems with the Obama administration's use of Drones I have to balance that against Romney's support of war with Iran though I have to say that Romney's actually meaning what he says from one day to the next is up for interpretation...and so on.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

I have to ask. It sounds good to say we do not care what someone's religion is but.... Those of you that have strong Religious belief do you really think you separate them from what you have control when you make decisions?

How about where you work. Would you work in Sex toy store? or a Prostitution house they are legal in some states. Would you object to a house of prostitution next door to you?

It sounds good but I have my doubts that Religious belief and how strong those beliefs are of the candidates can be as separate as we would like to believe.

I do not think you can separate a persons with strong religious convictions from the decisions they make.

Just a thought.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Well, I can only speak for myself, marquest, but perhaps I can help.

Of course, my religion informs my choices ... but what I find is not that I make different choices than I did before (as an agnostic, or even when I had a different religion) just that my reasons have changed.

The easiest example that comes to mind is not political at all, but I think it was discussed on this board in the Honey boo boo/GOP convention thread. I have a very longstanding dislike of hearing people referred to as trash. I believe everyone--and I mean absolutley everyone--has some sort of value. But now, I tend to think of that in a more religious shorthand eg. "Everyone is a child of God".

So I am not more or less moral than I ever was, I just tend to think of my morality in a different way.

As far as legislation goes though, I think that, whether it be out of fashion with SCOTUS now or not, the Lemon test is still an excellent way for government and court officials who happen to be religious to check themselves against.

If I were them, I would take it as my guide. The catch is that the person is question has to actually care about seperation of church and state enough to engage in self testing like that.

I think that, more than the mere fact of being religious, is what is important to look at in a politician: whether they respect the first amendment or not enough to want to govern in a secular manner.

Here is a link that might be useful: Simple Wiki on the three prongs of the Lemon Test


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

I do think that some people live completely in a religious-constructed bubble and therefore couldn't separate their religious and political spheres of action. Those are the people we do NOT want to vote for. We don't need the USA version of the Taliban running our country.

Like I said above, I don't really care what a politician's religion is as long as he/she keeps it to him-/her-self. But the minute hisher religion starts affecting his/her political decisions, I'm 100% opposed, regardless of what religion he/she is.

I added the gender-inclusive language so that that statement will apply to EVERYBODY. : )

Kate


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

marquest, that is exactly what I was thinking. It's like being on a jury for a capital case. Could I bring myself to send a man to be killed if found guilty? Well, no I couldn't. I believe death is a task that is God's and God's alone (it's also irreversible, but it's like 80% god and 20% irreversible for me). So, I don't see how religion can be extricated from every decision. Even important ones. I do think I could be fair minded and leave religion out of most everything else I do, and I don't doubt others could too, even Romney. I'm still not voting for him. I think my point was, his values are off when I compare them to mine. I don't think "religion" is his true problem. More likley, he just found a way (Mormonism) to do what he was going to do anyway.


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We know Paul Ryan can't separate them because he flat-out said so.

But he does separate them; otherwise there would be no letter from the Conference of U.S. Catholic Bishops regarding his proposed budget, no Nuns in a Bus protesting his proposed budget, and we would hear a strong refutation of the U.S. arsenal of nuclear bombs. He has selective amnesia in conveniently forgetting the social justice teachings, and the moral evil of nuclear weapons.

Has he ever spoken out against the death penalty?


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

It's called "compartmentalization"--saves one so much stress and internal division, ya know.

Kate


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

The Pope RYANS fearless leader claims the death penalty in current day and age is indefensible as a method of protecting society at large. You know according to them Catholics the sanctity of life also extends to those the "GOVERNMENT" deems unworthy of having one!
Preemptive war is also a mortal sin according to catechism, just the church isn't interesting in spending millions alienating their donors over this kind of matter the way they will say funding anti marriage equality issues.
Live happy married people aren't as troublesome as getting funding to stop say a strike on IRAN or blasting the crap out of IRAQ!


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

I think that we often get confused about what Religion is all about.

For example. What does Religion (or your belief in God) have to do with Prostitution? You could think it's a stupid thing to do without bringing belief in God into the discusions.

A lot of what Government does, taking care of the needy, keeping peace, watching out for the bad guys, etc. has nothing to do with a belief in some sort of Almighty Force.

So, I think it's possible for a President to do a good job without Help From Above, just common sense.

But when someone keeps bringing up religious viewpoints, you have to wonder what he really thinks.


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I am not a religious person, not an atheist but a non practicing lapsed Lutheran. Religion would not affect my choice UNLESS the tenets of their religion infringed on what I believe. I think this is the case with R&R. Women are second class citizens to them in every belief they both have.

I have a picture of my greatgrandparents standing in front of their old PA farmhouse with their son and daughter , a horse, and a dog. Romney's same picture of his has a grandfather with multiple wives and a gazillion children. That's his heritage. In the Mormon religion women are not equal.

As far as Ryan goes, he's just plain nuts. He will forever protect your two day old zygote as a "person" but when the kid is born, don't bother asking the GOP to provide . You're on your own.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

For example. What does Religion (or your belief in God) have to do with Prostitution? You could think it's a stupid thing to do without bringing belief in God into the discusions.

It is not only God but Religion can be anything you worship. You can think anything is stupid but Religion and thinking something is stupid are different in how strong of a reaction humans will react when they have the power to control.

Ryan said his Catholic belief influence his decision of women's rights bills.

There are churches telling their congregation not to vote for President Obama because he came out in support of Gay Rights

Santorum...sex should only happen if you are doing it to procreate and it is to be between only a Husband and Wife.

Religious belief has a tendency to control the politics. I am just wondering how we can say we do not care what or who they worship and can they separate that belief when they govern.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

How often do we hear President Obama yakking about his religion, his personal beliefs, and how often does he say anything that would lead us to believe he wants to legislate against anyone's rights? We don't.

From my understanding, Mitt said, multiple times last night alone, that he will bring god back to the people or the nation, or some such gibberish. What does that say?

And then there's Ryan... who stated out loud that he couldn't separate his personal beliefs from his job.

I think we know who will govern based upon the ideals of their religion... and who realizes that religion and private belief are private.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Throughout our history we've had Presidents who were
Episcopalian, Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, Unitarian, Disciples of Christ, Quaker, Catholic, Dutch Reformed, Congregationalist, Jehova's Witness...

In my memory, only JFK's Catholicism was a cause for some concern but allayed by his Separation of Church and State speech. To wit:

"I believe in an America that is officially neither Catholic, Protestant nor Jewish - where no public official either requests or accepts instructions on public policy from the Pope, the National Council of Churches or any other ecclesiastical source - no religious body seeks to impose its will directly or indirectly upon the general populace or the public acts of its officials - and where religious liberty is so indivisible that an act against one church is treated as an act against all."

To my mind, a President acts relative to what is in the public good, the public's best interests - not according to a tenet of his particular belief system.

In an interview with George Stephanopolis, Rick Santorum said JFK's separation speech made him want to vomit. A little hyperbole going on there, but can any of us here countenance a Santorum presidency where - let's say - any church that has a communion service MUST hold belief in the Transubstantiation?

That wouldn't stand. Any politician running wearing religion on their sleeve is someone I'd run from fast - and as opposed to someone the likes of Ryan, it would be at a true sub three marathon pace.











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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

In the case of Catholicism first & foremost it's about rules lots of rules & variations on rules. For the body of the church the membership it's about feeling connected & protected & has been for centuries. Doctrines & dogma handed down & not voted on like so many protestant digressions!
Ryan & Biden both needed to be asked about a nuclear option!
As both could likely be called upon to act in such cases.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Try insulting the Catholic Church in this forum and see where it gets you.

Is Sacrilege the same thing as heresy?

Ingrid, what do you think?

Nancy?

Chase?

I'd ask Mrskjun, but she seems to have disappeared.

Hay


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

I think you can live and govern, not only through common sense, but also through having a strong moral compass and sound ethics. Now, some might argue that those strengths only come from religion but I think one is born with them and develops them through life.

I have a sister who professes to be Christian and goes to Church every Sunday, blah,blah... However she is one of the most unaccepting people of others foibles that I have in my life. According to her, because I don't go to Church I only live my life by the laws that man has made and I can't be moral because I don't practice religion. Whatever.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Somewhere along the way, morals and religion got confused. At least in my opinion.

I am an atheist. But, I think I have strong morals. In my mind, they have nothing to do with each other. I've known plenty of very religious people who were not nice people at all. I've known plenty of religious people that are wonderful people. I know atheists that are wonderful people, and some that are not so wonderful.

It has much more to do with you as a person and how you were raised. If religion is part of that, that's fine for people it works for. But, this notion that you cannot have morals if you are not religous is ridiculous.

And, as for the OP, the fact that R/R thinks it's totally fine to govern by their religion is one of the many reasons I would never vote for them or their kind.

Maybe I'm too young to remember, or wasn't paying attention, but I do not remember religion ever being a consideration when voting for a President until GWB made it that way. Or maybe it's just that the right wing religious fanatics felt more empowered while he was in office since he spoke about his religion and funded faith based initiatives (I still don't understand how that happened). I do remember the talk about JFK being Catholic but I was way, way too young to vote. Other than that, I don't remember it being talked about until GWB.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Jill, were you old enough to catch Ronald Reagan and his "moral majority" - Phyllis Schlafly, the evangelicals, et al? That would be my first recollection of the large-scale intrusion of Christian polemic, in particular, into our US electoral scene. Anyone older than me remember anything earlier?


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Yes, circus, that was actually the 1st election I could vote (1980). But, I am ashamed to admit, at the time, I didn't pay too close attention. But, yes, I do remember the "moral majority". Had forgotten about that.

On the positive side (or maybe not so positive?), I've made up for not paying attention back then with my obsession now! My 26 year old daughter is sick of listening to me!


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

This reminds me of an old saying. One that maybe we should drag out and repeat over and over again.

"If someone goes around claiming to be a Christian, hide the silver and lock up all the women."


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Lily:
I have a picture of my greatgrandparents standing in front of their old PA farmhouse with their son and daughter , a horse, and a dog. Romney's same picture of his has a grandfather with multiple wives and a gazillion children. That's his heritage. In the Mormon religion women are not equal.
*********************************************************
Lily you really need to be more informed if you are going
to try to make a point about someone else's family.

April 21, 2012
Fiction: Romney's Grandfather was Polygamist
Fact: Obama's Father was Polygamist
You gotta love it when the Democrats try accusing Mitt Romney of being the grandson of a polygamist, which isn't true, when the fact is that Obama's father was one:

Obama's father ... was also polygamous in keeping with local custom, taking an informal Kenyan wife who preceded Obama's mother but remained a consort, according to accounts by local people and the senator himself.

Mitt Romney's grandparents, Gaskell and Anna Romney, however, were not among them. They wed in 1895, and it was the only marriage for each of them. You have to go back three generations, to Gaskell's father, Miles Park Romney (1843-1904), to find a polygamous ancestor of Mitt Romney....

Miles Park Romney 1885- 4 wives
Gaskell Romney- 1 wife
George Romney- 1 wife
Mitt Romney- 1 wife

The Romney women are held in very high regard.
George Romney encouraged his wife to run for the Senate
in 1970 because he thought she was the smartest woman he ever met. He adored her.

Mitt Romney treats Ann like a queen and so do their 5 sons.
They also think she is very smart and ask her advice
many times even as adults on women issues as do their wives.
They respect her opinion.

The liberals are now going AFTER Romney's faith because
all else fails?


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"Obama's father ... was also polygamous in keeping with local custom, taking an informal Kenyan wife who preceded Obama's mother but remained a consort, according to accounts by local people and the senator himself."

And I thought Obama's father was just a bigamist, a deadbeat dad, a wife beater and an alcoholic.

But we know he had dreams, don't we?
At least his son got rich off of them.


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Women are subservient to the men

My father in law is an elder in the St. George, Utah church. I wish someone would tell MY WIFE that!! It'd sure make MY life a whole lot easier!! LOL I could FINALLY let go of that "YES DEAR" stuff!! LOL


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Thats funny Bill.

The libs just can't get anywhere damning Mitt's religion.
Mormons are some of the best and most honest of religions.
Good people.
Very compassionate.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

City Woman:

Your level of disrespect and hatred for our President is despicable and disgusting.
It makes me want to see him win reelection more than ever.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

hayday, you had a question that was directed partially toward me.

I'm an agnostic but for me to insult anyone's religion would be unthinkable. It's just a matter of respect for the person who believes rather than religion itself. I have issues with many religious beliefs but that doesn't give me the right to give offense to someone who is religious. It upsets me to see someone else do this with impunity and a complete lack of concern for anyone's feelings, and actually with a certain level of glee. It's just not a civilized way to be. It's as simple as that.


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Gee, if lily is going to bring the candidate's family histories into it: Obama's father, Barack Obama, Sr., married Kezia Aoko, in Kenya, left her there (pregnant) to move to Hawaii, subsequently married Stanley Ann Durham, left her very shortly after she gave birth to Barack Hussein Obama II), subsequently married Ruth Niedsand (Stanley had divorced him at this point), Ruth eventually divorced him, too. You don't want to know why. They had 2 children. Obama Sr. was quite the ladies' man, fathering 7 or 8 children, depending on whom you read, none of which he supported.

A family history of Mormonism sounds pretty nice.


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Good one Bill. LOL

Mitt Romney and his family are the most loving and endearing people. An assault on his relgion because you have nothing else to bash him with is pathetic.

Obama was very active in Jeremiah Wright's church for many years till the media showed the Rev. proclaiming "God damn America" because it's so unfair to AA's. Then Obama dropped him like a hot potato but states he's still his most loved mentor.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

proclaiming "God damn America" because it's so unfair to AA's

There was a lot more in that particular sermon; condemnation of the genocide against Native Americans, the internment of the Japanese in WW2, for two examples. The sermon addressed the hypocrisy of a certain class in the country that praises our nation publically while ignoring the uncomfortable episodes of history that involve prejudice and bigotry and their ugly results.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Ingrid:

" It upsets me to see someone else do this with impunity and a complete lack of concern for anyone's feelings, and actually with a certain level of glee. It's just not a civilized way to be. It's as simple as that."

------------

It's one thing to say that YOU wouldn't insult someone else's religion, another thing to say that someone else cannot, in your mind, "with impunity", insult someone else's religion.

We have young soldiers dying for the right in this country to insult someone's religion.

No?

Are you part of the local Taliban?

If I were to insult someone's religion, say Romney's Mormonism, how far would you go to stop me on this forum? Will you allow some on this forum to insult Extreme Chrisianity? Are you selective in your willingness to see to it that people are punished for insulting behavior toward other peoples' beliefs?

And your concern about other people's feelings? How far does that extend? People who don't agree with you? They have feelings? Tell me about that, too.

Hay


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Give them a dose of their own meds and hear them whine.

Gotta love it.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

"To my mind, a President acts relative to what is in the public good, the public's best interests - not according to a tenet of his particular belief system."

Exactly, Duluth. And that's as it should be.

Religion is addressed within the very first Amendment of the Constitution, and goes a little something like this:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

Which means that there's no specific religion or tenets of any religion that can be intertwined with our legislation, and every single citizen herein is free to believe and practice as they so wish. That would include not practicing a belief system or believing in any such god or religious tenets.

Our forefathers were smart men, indeed. It's too bad every person vying for governmental office isn't quite so intelligent.

"Somewhere along the way, morals and religion got confused. At least in my opinion."

That's my opinion, too, Jill. The twain are not mutually exclusive. One can be exceedingly moral and live by a strict code of honor without believing in any gods or practicing any form of religion.

That christianity... or any other belief system... is so often claimed, usurped to push an authoritarian, regressive, patriarchal mindset, or to perpetuate and justify evil is, in my opinion, the most hypocritical human beings can possibly be.

All the typical Republican talking points aside, our esteemed President has not, within the entire span of his Presidency, pushed any sort of god or religion into his policy or tried to entwine a god or religious tenet into legislation. Which is as it should be.

Therefore, when candidates such as Romney and Ryan utter statements to the effect that they will bring god and certain religious ideals back into government, or they can't separate their religion from their jobs, it's a frightening thing. Such statements go against our very Constitutional rights.



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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Keep religion out of government! I don't know many who would disagree with this premise, although with some issues there is a fine line between religion and morality - or so it can be rightly claimed.

haydayhayday has raised a very valid point. Additionally, it very unfortunate that 'offense' is found moreso on who is doing the saying, rather than what was said. That mentality undermines credibility and stinks of cruel intent.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

hayday, I've answered you. Your resulting post is so illogical and strange that there's no use in going further. Think what you will of me.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

So, who ya gonna root for when BYU plays Notre Dame?


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Posted by ingrid_vc Z10 SoCal (My Page) on Mon, Oct 15, 12 at 11:01

"I repeat what I said. Nitpicking does not change that what you're doing is offending other posters in a very sensitive area, their religious beliefs. If that is your intent then you have no place here."

You've made it very clear.

Thanks.

"Posted by maddie_athome (My Page) on Thu, Oct 18, 12 at 3:46

"Organized religion caters to and is the save haven for Regressives. There is a reason why authoritarian regressives flock to it:

The war on women in Pakistan and the war on women in the USA clearly stem from the same root."

Yes, Ingrid, you've made it very clear that you're very selective in your outrage.

Thanks.

Hay


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

"Posted by ingrid_vc Z10 SoCal (My Page) on Mon, Oct 15, 12 at 14:12

I have contacted the administrator of Garden Web regarding this occurrence."

If I disappear in the middle of the night, I want you to all know that it's been fun all these years.

God bless Freedom.

Hay


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

When did hay find god?


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

And with a capital G or little g?


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Strange doings in Connecticut maybe one of his dance partners been bringing him to the ashram!


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Labrea I have changed my list of people I would invite to an interesting and lively dinner part to include you; you have been on a roll lately.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Joy, I'm sure.

I, myself, use a little "g" for god, since I don't believe one exists. There's no requirement for capitalizing any religious words or words referring to a god or church, which again, is as it should be considering our Constitution.

I don't see Ingrid as being any more outraged than anyone else who wishes to maintain our Constitutional rights as they are.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

  • Posted by batya Israel north 8-9-10 (My Page) on
    Thu, Oct 18, 12 at 11:27

There was outrage and fear when John Kennedy was elected , as he was Catholic, and other types of Christians were terrified he would bow to and be more loyal to the Pope than to America.

Just wait until a Jew runs for President. You ain't seen nothin' yet.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

I think you're right Batya.

I've seen a lot of Americans that are terrified at the thought of having a Mormon in the White House, some outright saying they won't vote for him because he is a Mormon... others won't admit it but that fear is still obvious to see.

Anti-Semitism has made a resurgence in recent times, I am sure there are QUITE a few people terrified that a Jewish President would be loyal to Israel instead of America.

Conspiracy theories will abound.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Just to be clear. It might not be.

"Posted by ingrid_vc Z10 SoCal (My Page) on Mon, Oct 15, 12 at 11:01

"I repeat what I said. Nitpicking does not change that what you're doing is offending other posters in a very sensitive area, their religious beliefs. If that is your intent then you have no place here."

and

""Posted by ingrid_vc Z10 SoCal (My Page) on Mon, Oct 15, 12 at 14:12

I have contacted the administrator of Garden Web regarding this occurrence."

were addressed to Mrskjun, not me.

God bless Freedom.

I'll miss you, Mrskjun. Hope you make it back, sometime.

Hay


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

I hope MrsK posts and lets us know she's just taking a break and not really being ousted for being different. Hopefullly!!!


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

  • Posted by kwoods Cold z7 Long Is (My Page) on
    Thu, Oct 18, 12 at 14:46

Religion schmeligion... my concern is that Romney seems covert in ALL that he believes.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Demi, I would be a boring dinner guest! I'm quite reserved in other peoples homes or even out in restaurants!
Come to NY I'm a very lively tour guide who hardly ever discusses religion or politics on my long walks!


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

I don't care that Romney is a Mormon. Being an atheist, they're all the same to me. Just keep it out of laws and policy decisions.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

A very good statement:

(CNN)- There are two moments and two moments only that made my soul sit upright during Tuesday night's presidential debate:

President Obama, speaking about the loss of manufacturing jobs to low-wage economies like China: "There are some jobs that are not coming back."

Obama, speaking about four lives lost in the attack on the U.S. consulate in Benghazi, Libya: "I am the one who has to meet those coffins when they come home."

Morbid? Not at all. I'm just a believer in the gospel of hard truths.

And as I am the mother of two school-age children, a teacher at an underfunded public university and a progressive Mormon, hard truths about the challenges our nation faces are all that makes sense to me.

As a mother, I am acutely aware that right now, our nation invests a smaller and smaller share of its resources in our children, the generation that will assume the debts my generation and our parents' generation have incurred.

As an educator, I have witnessed firsthand how failure to generate responsible levels of public revenue has significantly compromised generations' worth of investment in our public schools and universities.

And as a Mormon, I grew up with a healthy sense of respect for worst-case scenarios. I was raised, after all, with a religious aversion to debt and a year's supply of canned wheat, beans and powdered milk in the garage, as instructed by LDS Church leaders. The Mormon food storage tradition isn't about end-times-paranoia: It's a lesson passed down from our pioneer ancestors, who knew the importance of being prepared for difficult seasons so you can do right by your family and community.

This nation is in a difficult season, and I listened carefully Tuesday night for a proper sense of respect for worst-case scenarios. What I heard instead were the usual rhetorical swerves.

Mitt Romney offered personal anecdotes about "binders full of women" that have nothing to do with economic security for American families. He promised allegedly revenue-neutral $5 trillion tax cuts but refused to provide solid details on how he'd balance the books. And he made throwaway references to all people being the "children of the same God" without substantial reflection on how that should translate in terms of budget and policy.

What I really wanted from the debate was more of the hard truths that Obama seemed to be on the verge of saying:

"This recession is fundamentally different than other recessions, and there are no short-term fixes."

"Our old strategies for managing Middle Eastern conflict through military intervention or propped-up dictators don't work. And there is no easy way forward."

"The only thing the $3 trillion Iraq war produced for the United States was a mountain of debt and a legion of disabled Americans."

"We need to have a serious discussion about Social Security."

"Debts don't get paid down without adjustments in revenues."

These are the kind of hard truths that speak to the same part of me that took notice when Obama at his inauguration quoted the Scripture: "It is time to put away childish things" (1 Corinthians 13: 11).

And given the challenges we face in bringing down deficits while investing sensibly in the nation's future, here are some other Scriptures I'd like to hear:

"Turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come to smite the earth with a curse" (Malachi 4: 6).

"Set your house in order, for you shall die" (2 Kings 20: 1)

Morbid? Not at all. But I do feel a sense of responsibility for keeping an eye on the worst-case scenarios. And a few months' worth of rice and beans in the garage, like Mormon leaders teach me. And an ear out for the gospel of hard truths.

I have seen Obama work steadily, patiently through a difficult season. I have seen him face some hard truths and accept that there are no easy fixes. And I will vote to give him a second term.

I'm glad some people are listening.

Here is a link that might be useful: source


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

"I hope MrsK posts and lets us know she's just taking a break and not really being ousted for being different. Hopefullly!!!"

I saw this:

"Posted by ingrid_vc Z10 SoCal (My Page) on Mon, Oct 15, 12 at 11:01

"I repeat what I said. Nitpicking does not change that what you're doing is offending other posters in a very sensitive area, their religious beliefs. If that is your intent then you have no place here."

and

""Posted by ingrid_vc Z10 SoCal (My Page) on Mon, Oct 15, 12 at 14:12

I have contacted the administrator of Garden Web regarding this occurrence."

So what did Mrs say that brought this on?


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

It was the "blessed" stuff. I'm sure mrskjun is just taking a break.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Thanks for responding, Esh. I must have missed that. I hope you are right.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Romney was our Governor for years, and the state did fine. His religion was never an issue. I also liked many things about Senator McCain. However, something weird happens to these seemingly moderate Republicans when they become presidential candidates. They seem to get pushed further to the right.

I wouldn't vote for Romney for the plain and simple reason that I intensely dislike that the filthy rich in this country have rigged our political system, so that they can just get richer. I think Romney will only make that imbalance worse.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

hayday, I've answered you. Your resulting post is so illogical and strange that there's no use in going further. Think what you will of me.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

I posted this once this morning. The above at 20:05 was not posted by me. I have no idea how another copy of my post showed up 11 hours later.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

I'm with jill and jodik: our Founding Fathers were wise to keep church and state separate. A vote for R & R is a vote against women, no question about it.

You cannot legislate morality. A moral code comes from within. Atheists and agnostics and Humanists are perfectly capable of maintaining a strong moral code. Christianity does not own the Moral High Ground.

With all due respect, as I have known some wonderful Mormons, I consider that religion a cult.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

"Like Biblical Israel, America is mired in sin 1.2 million abortions a year, the assault on God's institution of marriage, an explosion of pornography, children robbed of their innocence, skyrocketing rates of divorce and out-of-wedlock births, the Church persecuted need I continue? And yet we blithely go on as if there was no connection between this and the way we violate God's commandments? Too many Americans act as it the Bible's prophecies are charmingly poetic, but bear no relation to today's events? How many more 9/11 attacks, how many more wars, how much more turmoil how many more Benghazis will it take before we finally begin to make the connection between our behavior as a nation and the horror unfolding before our eyes?" - Rick Scarborough, promoting his ongoing forty days of fasting and prayers in advance of election day.

This one describes himself as a CHRISTOCRAT = crock of crap!


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Well said, Woodnymph. From my view, given all that's been uncovered and in the news, collective christianity has no right to claim moral high ground.

I don't care what religion our representatives belong to or practice, as long as they don't bring it up all the time or try to use it to influence legislation and policy making. And that's exactly what Romney and Ryan are hellbent on doing, according to their own words.

Church and state NEED to remain separate for the good of the nation!



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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

I notice that preacher jerk isn't down on nuclear, weapons or the death penalty or Las Vegas (CHRISTOCRAT) my ass! Just another jump for Jesus popular sins of the moment.
One of the vilest sins of the dark ages was usury (these pulpit pounders don't make a peep about Wall Street LIBOR SCANDALS robbing communities of their abilities to provide services)
Bunch of moral fashionistas adopting the popular religious drag of the moment! (Yes I shout get over it)


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

While I'm not a fan of mrsk's passive-aggressive style, I do hope she was not kicked off the forum for some offense to anyone's religious sensibilities.

I for one intend to go on committing such offenses (to religious sensibilities) any time they deserve it--especially when they indulge in religious hypocrisy.

The day this forum requires us to step delicately around everyone's religious beliefs is the day I go look for a new forum.

On the other hand, I'm adamant about the need to keep religion out of politics or out of public institutions like schools. They shouldn't give even the appearance of supporting or favoring religion or a particular religion.

A government-endorsed religion in anti-American!

Kate


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Just to set the record straight this is what happened:

Mrskjun has continually and unrelentingly associated President Obama's name with religious labels that are clearly meant to be denigrating and provocative. Some are "The Messiah", "The Chosen One" and lately "Obama (blessed be his name), which she used over and over again. At least two people posted that, since they were Catholic, they considered the last epithet to be near-sacrilegious or indeed sacrilegious, and were offended and distressed by this. I then informed her that if she continued to do this I would report her to the moderators. Thus, she was given fair warning. She then did it again and I told her I had notified the moderators. I never heard back from them and have no idea what, if any, steps were taken. In spite of haywardhayward's disquieting posts to me above, including asking whether I was a member of the Taliban, I make no apology for what I did. I've tolerated mrskjun's offensive remarks for many weeks and, in spite of several posts asking her to stop, she continued to spout them. Since I'm an agnostic I have no religious stake in her insulting behavior, but I strongly believe she was wrong in doing so. Her contributions on this forum have been primarily to insult and belittle, a refusal to engage in discussion when confronted with facts, and then appearing again with yet new offensive remarks. If I'm attacked for my actions it will not affect me because I first and foremost answer to myself, and am the strongest critic of my actions. I've been attacked personally more than a few times here and it never in my wildest dreams occurred to me to complain to the moderators. This is different; to me it's a matter of principle. It's ironic to me that ladies such as mrsjkun who like to talk about their religious beliefs and how religious people are persecuted and made fun of are yet the worst offenders when it comes to doing so. I just couldn't continue to witness the escalating behavior. When she said "all bets are off" when it came to insulting someone she wasn't joking. I just didn't want to witness any more of it.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

You know, I've never understood how a person can be so against the 'killing' of a fetus... but be all in favor of the death penalty, or in favor of a big military, war, etc... what's the difference between those forms of death? Or is the underlying issue being able to pick and choose who lives and who dies, by who is more 'deserving' according to some personal thing?

Isn't all death to be frowned upon? Or accepted? Without cherry picking?


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

I too hope she was not banned as a result of her posts. As much as she offended me and my religious beliefs she did no worse than we all have done from time to time.

I sent a note to the moderator with words to that affect.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

I agree Jodi. I never got it either. Life is life. A zygote, embryo, or fetus, they will fight to the death (pun, there) to preserve it. Wars, killing and maiming of thousands of our soldiers, well, that's life.

And Ryan, the extreme hunter, seems to like ending the life of as many animals he can kill and mount on his wall.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

I doubt if she was banned. She's still on the member's list. I am sure she's just taking a break.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Right ingrid. Let's just set the record straight. I've never called Obama "The Messiah", and never "The Chosen One". But if I choose to do so I will. So, if you intend to make more accusations against me, make sure you can back them up. I have been on GW for ten years. I have never been accused of denigrating anyone's religion, and I did not do so. So, yes, I had my hand slapped for being disrespectful, according to you. Well dear, if I was disrespectful oh wow. Do you have any idea how offended and disrespected I feel about some of the names that Romney and Ryan are called? How disrespected I feel about some of the things said about Christians on this forum? Do you? There have been many very heated exchanges on this forum. And I'm sure there will be many more. But other than very personal insults, we have always moved on to other threads and other subjects. You have certainly changed that dynamic, and I can't imagine anyone on either side of the aisle being thrilled by it.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

If I was using a label/phrase that someone (not to mention more than one) said was offensive to them, I would stop.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

If everyone would stop with the name calling and stick with general snarkiness, we'd have better discussions.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Maybe you would esh. But would you tell someone who continuously calls conservatives names to stop...or report them to the moderator for being disrespectful?


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

I wasn't going to say this but since I seem to not have the support of the very people whose religious feelings I wanted to protect, let me just say that I was by no means the only person who complained to the moderator.

Also, "name calling" and words that are considered "sacrilegious" by some posters are two very different things. THAT and only that is what motivated me to complain. I can't speak for the others who also objected.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

But but but....ingrid said
"I make no apology for what I did. I've tolerated mrskjun's offensive remarks for many weeks and, in spite of several posts asking her to stop, she continued to spout them."

"Since I'm an agnostic I have no religious stake in her insulting behavior, but I strongly believe she was wrong in doing so."

"Her contributions on this forum have been primarily to insult and belittle,
====================
a refusal to engage in discussion when confronted with facts
==========================================================
and then appearing again with yet new offensive remarks.
"I've been attacked personally more than a few times here and it never in my wildest dreams occurred to me to complain to the moderators. This is different; to me it's a matter of principle."

"I just couldn't continue to witness the escalating behavior."

Hello mrskj.....so glad you are still here !
ingrid has been hoisted by her own petard."To be hoist by one's own petard...), means "to blow oneself up with one's own bomb, be undone by one's own words."

Ingrid has had it in for you for a while mrsk.
She took a situation that had nothing to do with her since she admits she is agnostic, and used it to get even with you .

She has been livid at you because you would not see her "point of view when she gave you facts".

esh is now stepping up to the plate for her time to bat.

Good luck mrskj. I am rooting for the Christians lol.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

You can repeat it as often as you want ingrid. What I said was not sacrilegious, is no part of any liturgy. But anyone can take offense at anything that is said on this forum. You had your fun. Stick around, there can be some real Christian bashing going on at times, and you can wear your little fingers out reporting each and every offense.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Now there's a great use for Frank's big word: "sanctimonious". There's a difference between stepping up and defending a poster who's getting bashed, or defending the third person object of a bashing (say, a presidential candidate),

and deciding on what the moral code of a poster should be, presumably according to one's own personal standards.

Does ingrid give a fig about the subject that she has made into an issue? I don't think so. City has it right; she's been laying for you, Mrs.

We're not talking about something generally offensive here, like public cursing.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

I had made a post on that thread when suddenly everything was deleted.

I will point out again that Mrsk saying "Obama,(blessed be his name)" is not comparable to any exaltation in the Christian religion. In fact, I'm not aware of any exaltation said after the name of God or Jesus.

It is somewhat similar to the Muslim exaltation of "Mohammed (Peace be upon him)" but is most closely similar to the exaltation of the Invisible Pink Unicorn (Blessed Be Her Holy Hooves) or maybe the "Blessed Be" of Wiccans.

She was being sarcastic and I do not believe that anyone seriously believed that Mrsk, possibly the most vocal defender of the Christian religion on this board, was actually denigrating God or Jesus or Christians. If anything, she was closer to copying the others mentioned above.

The fake moral outrage went way too far and ironically, it was Mrskjun who got her hand slapped for it. That's like the teetotaller being accused of drunk driving.

I seem to not have the support of the very people whose religious feelings I wanted to protect,

Ingrid, considering the things said about Mormons, Jews, atheists, Muslims, and even Christians around here, it seems a bit disingenuous that you happened to pick this innocuous comment made by this particular poster to become indignant about.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Jodik: You know, I've never understood how a person can be so against the 'killing' of a fetus... but be all in favor of the death penalty, or in favor of a big military, war, etc... what's the difference between those forms of death?


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Hamilton, that's probably not going to have much effect on an atheist. Very powerful, though.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Hamilton, that's probably not going to have much effect on an atheist.

No, probably not.

But it has always fascinated me that people can believe that murder, rape, genocide and slavery are immoral, yet worship a deity that instructs his followers to do all of the above.

It's like... why should I take parenting advice for my children from a god who had to drown all of his?


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Much to the chagrin of some of you, there are some of us who want to keep God in our lives and our country. We want to keep Christ in our Christmas. We want to be able to pray where ever and when ever we want and not have to worry about someone telling us we are offending them. This is our country and if I offend someone who is of a different religion but has come to this country to live, that's tough. I know I can't go to the Middle East and demand they stop praying because it offends me, now can I? Yet you athiests think you have the right to shut us up. Well you will not shut us up and I pray Romney is the next president and brings decency and calm back to this country. This country is lacking in moral fiber. I know that statement makes you angry too, so sorry. Progressives think "anything goes" and no society can exist under that logic. A civilized society needs structure, limitations, rules and a strong moral compass to prosper and survive.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Yeah...

You forgot the "Guns" rant to go with the "God" and "Country"


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

I have a question about that drawing & caption posted by Hamilton above. What exactly does it mean? Or does it mean anything "exactly"? What does it mean to you, Hamilton? I mean, you posted it, so...


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Do you see my post right after it?

There's your answer.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Yeah, okay. I can't explain it to you, Hamilton. For me, faith in God is very personal. I guess if I felt I could explain this, I would be writing about it, maybe have a TV show, go door to door, it's different to everyone, but certain things are central and unchanging. Thanks for sharing.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

I can't explain it to you, Hamilton. For me, faith in God is very personal

You're not expected to explain it, elvis.

As long as each persons religion is personal, nobody has a problem with it. The problems stem when those with religious beliefs expect everyone else to abide by their faith.

For me personally...I have a moral code that says no murder, rape, genocide and slavery so I can't fathom worshipping a deity which practiced all of those things.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

"But it has always fascinated me that people can believe that murder, rape, genocide and slavery are immoral, yet worship a deity that instructs his followers to do all of the above.

It's like... why should I take parenting advice for my children from a god who had to drown all of his?"

Exactly, HamiltonGardener... which, again, is another reason that I can't buy into the whole religion thing. The dichotomy and hypocrisy are too much.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

As I said--save haven.

Now that the posts are gone some think they can spin this and alter what was said. Well, think again.

And shifting the blame "you libs made me do it!" was beyond pathetic.

Ingrid--waste of time.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Not sure if you're saying "save heaven" or "safe haven", but either way, what is that about?

Is this still about what ingrid did?


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Gods, guns, and gays...The Republicans mantra.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Tax cuts (for them) + other people's sexlife + how much the baby Jesus loves them (emphasis on them) = the Republicans mantra.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

I know what I believe and why I believe it. I can share it one on one. I've even taught it in Sunday school class. But I could never explain it on a forum like this. Of course you know all you atheists are going to hell......joking....I have no clue, and I'm no ones judge. In fact, I wonder if any atheists have come back from a near death experience and told about it?


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

  • Posted by batya Israel north 8-9-10 (My Page) on
    Sat, Oct 20, 12 at 5:36

Dear Great Golly:

"This is our country and if I offend someone who is of a different religion but has come to this country to live, that's tough."

Right here is my problem with your view. "Our Country" , now does that mean the US belongs to Christians? Someone who has come to this country to live means any and all immigrants. Your family was probably among them. The basic tenet of this country is religious FREEDOM, and that also means freedom from religion should any citizen wish to live that way. No one is stopping you from living a faith based life. The Constitution, however, should make it clear that you legally are to refrain from demanding that all Americans live by your religious code. Separation of church and state makes this incontrovertibly clear.

"Bringing god back to this country" means, I assume, you wish your stream of Christianity to be the legal basis for the way we live, whether we ascribe to the same faith or not. This is illegal, and no matter who is elected, this will not change.

"A civilized society needs structure, limitations, rules and a strong moral compass to prosper and survive." I agree. We have that moral compass, those limitations. It's called the United States Constitution. I am not an atheist, but I am not a Christian. Keep god in your life, that is your right. Your church can decide whom it wants to marry, and the congregants can decide to fit their personal lives into the decisions of the church leaders (birth control, tithing - which is a kind of tax etc). You do not have the right to legally demand that anyone else follow these faith-based rules.
Your attitude of "that's tough" is arrogant in the extreme. Anyone who practices a different faith than your - or no faith at all - has the right to live in the US without being coerced into your personal decisions. No, you can't go to the Middle East and demand that they stop praying, but you can help to prevent the US from becoming the Middle East, which are theocracies, not democracies. If you would like to live in theocracy, there are many to choose from. If you would like to live in democracy, however, stay where you are, live with the separation of church and state, live your personal life as you see fit, and stay out of my faith, my bedroom and my body.
Should this not sit well with you, forgive me for saying, "that's tough".


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Democracy doesn't mix with theocracy. The twain cannot cohabitate. State and church must remain separate.

If someone likes, there are other nations that ARE theocratic, complete with 'Vice & Virtue Police'. Perhaps those who wish to control others through their own religious beliefs would be happier living in that sort of environment, elsewhere.

Funny how those of us who don't want our lives controlled by religious ideals don't see fit to want those same kinds of controls for others...


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Actually Batya, she was arguing for your point of view. If you were not already hostile to religion and lived in the US, you might be grateful for that since it also gives agnostics and atheists the right to believe as they wish. She is not proselytizing or even being insulting. She is simply saying that she has the right to worship as she sees fit and you do not have the right to bully her for it.

Like it or not, Law, the thing that allows people to live together peaceably, comes from religion. It is the one thing that tells us that we are more than animals and that we should live to a higher standard. Without religion we would not have a recognition of mine and not mine. We would live in a state of the terrible twos continuously not recognizing the rights of others. Morality would not exist. Religion sets limits to our conduct. Atheism seeks to remove those limits. I would not want to live in a world like that.

The fear that a President of any particular religion could force the doctrine of that religion on the nation as a whole is not possible here simply because there are so many variations that flourish. There is no one religion that can dominate the electorate so long as we observe the limits set on us by the law. A President who pushes an agenda too far will eventually fall to the votes against him.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?


Hogwash.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

I haven't read one post that defends Ryon on the statement he made in the debate with Biden. Ryon AND his wife believe that life begins at conception and does not condone killing that life. He did not say that his belief was because of his religion. He also does not believe that his belief can be separated from his public actions.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

  • Posted by batya Israel north 8-9-10 (My Page) on
    Sat, Oct 20, 12 at 8:46

"If you were not already hostile to religion and lived in the US, "
what? I am not hostile to religion, I'm hostile to being possibly forced to live according to Evangelical Christian beliefs. I lived in the US for 40 of my 55 years, and hopefully I will return soon, as soon as the law says I can bring my family.
Your second paragraph is not my focus, nor will I argue it here. Your assumption about atheism is as wrongheaded as can be, and simply untrue. I'm not an atheist, but I know enough to realize that they do not want to remove "limits", but take their limits from another place than the Bible. Simple as that. Morality would, and does, exist; either that or you are calling atheists immoral, or amoral, again, simply not true.
Just as one does not have the right to bully another for their differing religious views and practices, one does not, in the United States, have the right to make one religion more equal, powerful or influential over any other, or over any religion. That is the separation of church and state. Dominating the electorate by forcing Evangelical Christian beliefs concerning, sex, procreation, family make-up, science, "appropriate" curriculum, poverty issues, you name it: these are the social issues that one party's religious beliefs are trying most blatantly to change in order to bring Constitutional LAW into line with religious belief. One religion's belief that I should not have equal civil/marriage/family/employment, etc rights as an American citizen , because their scripture forbids it, should not have any influence over my CIVIL rights.

Should I wish to join their church, I would have to accept their teachings. They cannot put those teachings into law to have power over citizens that are not members of their belief system.

And please don't go the "thou shalt not kill" etc, what we should get rid of those laws too because they came originally from religion foolishness. We are having a rational discussion, not behaving like two year olds.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

In fact, I wonder if any atheists have come back from a near death experience and told about it?
*

Absolutely.

One of the accounts is by Howard Storm, in My Descent Into Death.

Howard storm was an atheist who said he cared only about his career, did not believe in God.

He was in France, became very ill and with the government health care system (that so many liberals where want us to emulate with Obamacare), was unfortunate enough to be ill over a holiday when doctors were in short supply and was going to have to wait a day or so for surgery. They doped him up and kept him in a room with another patient. His wife was despondent and couldn't make anyone understand what pain he was in and how near to death he actually was.

He says he went to hell.
What happened after that is very interesting.
He is alive today, as far as I know, and the experience changed his life.

*

I am a Christian and Hamiltongardener's "cartoon" was thought provoking--nothing I haven't thought of myself since I was young, actually--but nonetheless, thoughtprovoking and I guess some could view as offending Christians.

So, is someone going to look out for the Christians again and complain about this post on behalf of the offended Christians?

Or was that a one time "shot?"


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

I believe the complaint for mrskjun was for repeated use of a single phrase and not stopping after being asked by several posters to stop because it offended them.

- one specific phrase
- asked to stop
- didn't stop

That was the specific circumstance as I remember it.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Even God repented for creating man. and the story is not finished


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Well that's cute but not our problem.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Esh--exactly.

Their attempt at re-writing history is laughable.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

How do we know Howard Storm was near death? Just because his wife said so? I went to his web site and he looks like quite the promoter. He calls himself an artist and his paintings are very pedestrian.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Jerzeegirl, your assessment of Howard Storm's paintings as "pedestrian" has nothing to do with the validity of his story, which I cannot prove and you cannot disprove.

Why the hostility and insults?

Mrskjun asked a question and I gave her some information--no one needs to argue about it.

He was near to death, his intestines were perforated and it took him months to recover, if not a year or so. I can't remember all of the details without finding the book and I'm not inclined to do that this morning, but he was finally flown back home to the states and more hospitalization was required--he certainly was ill enough to have died at the time.

Why would you make a supposition like that without reading the book?

Matters not.

I happen to believe his story for other reasons, as well.

I don't believe all of those stories.
The young boy who "wrote" a book, which I read, was not particularly convincing to me. I threw the book away.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

The day I find proof that a god exists will be the day I believe. I still won't force those beliefs on others, though. Everyone has a right to their own ideas about gods and religions.

I find it offensive that political representation wants to legislate my morals. Those are not up for discussion, nor will I change them.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

  • Posted by batya Israel north 8-9-10 (My Page) on
    Sat, Oct 20, 12 at 10:29

Is
is not.
is, too
Is not, not not
Is too, too too

Not the point. Not the issue. Not the discussion. Whether there is or is not, is not the problem. No one cares if you believe there is. And no one should care if you believe there isn't.
The issue is whether it should change the laws in the US to reflect the "is" position only, and which "is" will be picked to overwhelm any other "is" and any "isn't" in civil law.
You want "is"? Live like it, get together with others like you and create all the community you want. Same for the "isn'ts". But, and here is the issue, you CANNOT make me live in your FAITH community. Your neighborhood, your school, your whatever, MUST have room for all of us, no matter if I am an "is" or not. If I don't want to go to your church and accept it's tenets, I won't. You go to yours, I'll go to mine, or not at all, but we all without exception must have equal civil right. Period.
That's the bottom line, and there is no need to get sidetracked into is so, is not, blah blah blah. Not the point.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

"But, and here is the issue, you CANNOT make me live in your FAITH community"

I find it hard to believe that anyone has invited you to do that, let alone tried to coerce you into joining any "faith community".


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

sleeplessinftwayne:

"Like it or not, Law, the thing that allows people to live together peaceably, comes from religion. It is the one thing that tells us that we are more than animals and that we should live to a higher standard. Without religion we would not have a recognition of mine and not mine. We would live in a state of the terrible twos continuously not recognizing the rights of others. Morality would not exist. Religion sets limits to our conduct."

Howgwash, in this case is absolutely correct.

If anything, religion is a consequence of our inborn morality.

Enlighten yourself. Go find and read some of the research that has come out of the Yerkes Regional Primate Research Center.

The information and research is there if you want to know.

"The possibility that empathy resides in parts of the brain so ancient that we share them with rats should give pause to anyone comparing politicians with those poor, underestimated creatures."

...

"I've argued that many of what philosophers call moral sentiments can be seen in other species. In chimpanzees and other animals, you see examples of sympathy, empathy, reciprocity, a willingness to follow social rules. Dogs are a good example of a species that have and obey social rules; that's why we like them so much, even though they're large carnivores."

...

"To endow animals with human emotions has long been a scientific taboo. But if we do not, we risk missing something fundamental, about both animals and us."

Hay


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Batya, well said. the idea as stated here by one person that atheism wants to remove all limits and that atheists are immoral, amoral, etc. is just plain inaccurate.

The bottom line is, indeed Civil Rights. The intrusion of church into state matters is antithetical to the American democratic system .We are a pluralistic nation,and have been, from day one. No one here should need a history lesson, but our ancestors came here seeking not only freedom religion, but freedom FROM religion.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

batya - thank you! Your 2 responses were spot on. Said so much better than I ever could.

I dare say that it is the attitudes of people like GGM and sleepless that give religion a bad name. It is that exact attitude that turned me away from religion. That and the outright greed that goes along with it. I don't care if you worship some god you believe in or the donkey next door. Just stop trying to convince me that the laws set by your god or your donkey are ones I have to follow. Because I don't.

And this whole thing about you cannot have morals without religion is absurd. Just read the news and it will tell you all you need to know. Representatives that preach they are pro-life (anti-choice) telling their mistress to get an abortion. Representatives that preach Christianity and work for Christian organizations caught checking into a hotel with their "finacee" when both are married to other people. And those are just the most recent stories.

I, an atheist, have never done anything in my life to hurt another human being. The biggest thing a person can do wrong in my eyes is lie. Yet, I do not believe in any god.

So, lose the morals come from religion speech. It's offensive.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

"I don't care if you worship some god you believe in or the donkey next door. Just stop trying to convince me that the laws set by your god or your donkey are ones I have to follow. Because I don't...

...So, lose the morals come from religion speech. It's offensive."

-------------

"Just stop trying to convince me that the laws set by your god or your donkey"

Now that's offensive. Following the example set forth with the ingrid incident, I am asking that no one compare any god with any animal. I find it offensive.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

"I am asking that no one compare any god with any animal. I find it offensive."

Yes, my dog feels the same way.

Hay


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

I was not comparing anyone's god to an animal. I said I don't care if you worship a god OR you worship an animal. The animal was an example.

My point that I was trying to get across is I do not care who and/or what anyone worships. As long as they do not try to enforce their worship on me, we are all good. The minute they try to enforce what they believe on me, I have a big problem.

And telling me that I cannot have any morals because I am not religious is wrong and offensive.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

I don't care what religious or non religious code you believe in and as usual you missed the point of my message. My point is stop trying to tell me who and what I can believe in and if I want to say a prayer anywhere I feel like it you don't have the right to tell me not to. If my child wants to wear a t shirt with the photo of Christ on the front of it you don't have the right to tell him he can't wear it. I wouldn't tell anyone what they believe in is wrong. Everyone has their own beliefs, only thing is you atheists and non believers want to stifle me and what I believe in and I'm sick of it. I would never and have never pushed my beliefs on anyone. I'm not a relgious person in that I don't follow one said religion. I don't even go to church. I am a Christian, period. Don't tell me I can't be a Christian in a country that was founded on Christian principle and don't tell me it wasn't, because your arguments about this subject are silly.

I went to traffic court with my cousin the other day and was pleased when the judge instructed everyone to stand for the pledge of allegiance and felt good to hear "one nation under God" without some atheist screaming, you can't do that. Some people didn't put their hand over their heart either out of defiance against our country or not realizing what the flag represents. She also had witnesses sworn in using the phrase "so help me God." This is America and the majority of Americans are Christians and believe in God and it's too bad that makes you crazy.

Here's the difference between atheists and me. The other day I drove through a parking lot that took me behind a restaurant and there was a Muslim man with his mat/rug on the ground saying his mid day prayers. I didn't get upset or tell him "hey, you stop that." I have respect for everyone's beliefs, even those that would harm me. I don't want anyone telling me who and what to believe in and I will return the gesture to them.

Even your president, being the hypocrite he is, says God Bless America after his sermons aka speeches. Are you writing him telling him "stop it?"

Thanks Sleepless, you are far more well-spoken then I.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

you atheists and non believers want to stifle me and what I believe in and I'm sick of it.

How exactly do atheists stifle you and what you believe in?

When has anyone told you you cannot pray? Unless you are referring to organized prayer sessions in public school, which are unconstitutional? When has anyone said to you "hey, you stop that" when you've been praying?

You do know that you do not have to say the "so help me God" thing when being sworn in in court, right?

You sound a little hysterical, and just a bit paraniod, to me.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Well put, Sleepless. I too am a non-churchgoing Christian (former practicing Catholic) who is completely tolerant of the religious beliefs of others. And also of the choice not to believe in spirituality.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Amen Sleepless!

:)


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Just what does "I am a Christian" mean anyway? I see and hear the phrase used so often without any definition or explanation. It has almost become a bumper sticker and for me it is now nothing but white noise and I mean that in a bad way. (not in a derogatory way but in an over-used way). I always wonder at the intentions of someone when they say it.Is it a put-down to non-Christians or simply a way of defining something about yourself. I still want to know what it means.

sleeplessinftwayne @7:15 today - "Without religion....morality would not exist. Religion sets limits to our conduct. Atheism seeks to remove those limits" AND greatgollymolly @21:24FRI commented that this country is lacking in moral fibre and that somehow religion will bring back decency and calm back to the country.

What I want to know is how do those who think that justify all the wars that are fought in the name of religion. How do you justify church bombings, religious persecution, etc. Kind of tough to fight a religious war if you're an atheist.

Oh and animals and religion - now I'm reaching back into my elementary school history but it seems that ancient Egyptians viewed cats as deities and sacred animals and that Bastet was the Goddess and Sacred Cat. I remember this because she was also the goddess of fun stuff like music and dancing. Could do worse than to worship cats and fun.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Without religion we would not have a recognition of mine and not mine. We would live in a state of the terrible twos continuously not recognizing the rights of others. Morality would not exist

Well, maybe this is true for YOU... but not for us grown ups.

By the way, as elvis has pointed out, I feel a precedent has been set. Moderators, my delicate atheist sensibilities have been offended. Please delete Sleepless's post and those of any supporting posts and give him/her a warning.

TIA


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Here's the difference between atheists and me. The other day I drove through a parking lot that took me behind a restaurant and there was a Muslim man with his mat/rug on the ground saying his mid day prayers. I didn't get upset or tell him "hey, you stop that." I have respect for everyone's beliefs, even those that would harm me. I don't want anyone telling me who and what to believe in and I will return the gesture to them.

You did not get upset?

Do you think because he was Muslim he would harm you?


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

I no of no one on this board who has ever said that a person is not free to practice their religion. Of course they are and that is a fundamental freedom.

What is not OK is in any way imposing your beliefs on another. Nor is it OK to use government and public facilities to promote religion...any religion.

"Without religion we would not have a recognition of mine and not mine. We would live in a state of the terrible twos continuously not recognizing the rights of others."

Perhaps you may not understand mine and not mine, right and wrong, without your religion but I can assure you those values are instilled in us long before we understand religious concepts and have little if anything to do with religious belief.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

there was a Muslim man with his mat/rug on the ground saying his mid day prayers. I didn't get upset or tell him "hey, you stop that." I have respect for everyone's beliefs, even those that would harm me.

That would harm you?

That's an interesting little rider to tack on there.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

hamiltongardener, please read or re-read esh-ga's statement above concerning the situation which you feel warrants your continued comments. I did what I did with the best intentions, without being "disingenuous", "sanctimonious" or any of the other hurtful phrases that have been hurled my way. You don't know me but I would have hoped that what I've written on different topics would have shown you that I try hard not to hurt or insult anyone. If you read many of the posts on the right and how they're worded in comparison to what I've said, I would hope you would have come to understand me a little bit.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

All of you who are high-fiving Sleepless:

I've read your religious books.

Try reading some some of the scientific studies.

You could start here:

Chimpanzees Console Family Members And Friends

I'd love to hear what you have to say after you've spent some time at the Yerkes Primate Research Site

What have you got to lose?

Are you close minded?

Hay


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

One Question....Please answer.

Are we confusing Moral Behavior and Common Sense?

"Do unto other...." and "Thou shalt not kill...." are considered Moral...right?

OK then, Common Sense says that if I do it to you, (kill, steal, hate) then that gives you the right to do the same to me.

So, it seems to me, that everything that religion teaches regarding your treatment of others, could also be taught by getting people to use common sense instead of the bible.

Why do we need the bible to teach us how to behave?


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Ingrid, I'm pretty sure HG was being a tad sarcastic.

"I have respect for everyone's beliefs, even those that would harm me."

What does that even mean??? Does it mean you believe that all Muslims would hurt you? Or does it mean you are supportive of the radical beliefs of jihadists?


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

esh, why is it that you don't remember that I asked that people stop with the disgusting names that they have been calling our next president and vice president R&R. The answer was no. So according to you, it's ok to offend me or other conservatives, but not ok to offend liberals?


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Only a tad sarcastic. I'm not asking the mods for anything really, I'm not about to run to them about anything.

But I do still feel it was disingenuous to run to moderators over THAT comment when much worse has been hurled around non-stop over Mormons, Muslims, atheists and Jews.

It seemed a little opportunistic considering the particular poster that was being tattled on.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Hay, your statements: "If anything, religion is a consequence of our inborn morality...The possibility that empathy resides in parts of the brain so ancient that we share them with rats should give pause to anyone comparing politicians with those poor, underestimated creatures."

were not lost in me. In fact, I agree; they dovetail beautifully with how I feel. To me, it's impossible not to believe in God, if you observe nature.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Fine with me.

They're doing an excellent job putting more people not only off organized religion but off religion in general for good. Keep them front and center.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Posted by hamiltongardener CAN 6a (My Page) on
Sat, Oct 20, 12 at 14:00

Only a tad sarcastic. I'm not asking the mods for anything really, I'm not about to run to them about anything.

But I do still feel it was disingenuous to run to moderators over THAT comment when much worse has been hurled around non-stop over Mormons, Muslims, atheists and Jews.

It seemed a little opportunistic considering the particular poster that was being tattled on.

*

More than a little, in my opinion.

That was the point I made about your post, Hamiltongardener.

I've never seen you do anything intentionally offensive on this forum--you're one of the most articulate and fair posters here.

Unfortunately, there appears to be additional eager reinforcements in accomplishing specific objectives in play into this forum now, which is to the detriment of all posters.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

MrsK You have been calling our next President names for years...recently "blessed is his name" and "Messiah".

GGM..how decent of you to not to confront the scary Muslim praying...(((Sarcasm)))....,


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

whoa....here you go parroting ingrid lily. Show me a post where I ever called him Messiah....and furthermore, I've never called him any names until I used that first one, and that was after I asked that you quit calling Romney and Ryan names like sleaze and douche-bag, lyan Ryan, Eddie Munster. I didn't run to the moderator and tell them how much you disrespected me. But don't lie about me lily, that really ticks me off.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

More than a little, in my opinion.

That was the point I made about your post, Hamiltongardener.

Thanks Demi.

Here's the thing. I disagree almost COMPLETELY with you (and Mrsk) in regards to religion, politics, healthcare... many of the big hot button issues here. I have absolutely no politically biased reason to take this stance.

But I will fully admit that I do witness biased and unfair behaviour here on a daily basis, often employing smear tactics and bullying wolf pack mentalities.

So, I call it out when I see it.

Both sides do it (I know how much some people here hate to admit that phrase) but it's true. And yes, I see Liberals doing it more often than Conservatives... but only because there are many more Liberals here than Conservatives.

If Cons were in the majority, I have no doubt that I would see it happen more on the Con side.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

mrs you can call the President all the names you wish. If you want to denigrate him with words that offend some Christians be my guest...but please don't whine again when your religious sensibilities are offended by words others use.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

chase, does it matter if I whine? Didn't you when you tried to make my words about your religion? I know you didn't go running to the moderator. You and I have had some real disagreements but you have never personally attacked me, nor I you. Even if we have both come close, we have not crossed that line.

I too have the greatest respect for hg. She and I almost never agree on anything political and certainly not religion. But in the real world, I think we could sit, have coffee, and be friends. I am not my politics or my religion, and neither is she. I'm more likely to be my garden lol.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

I don't think I have seen Mrsk call him the Messiah or The One.

I've seen Bill do it all the time.

Could be you guys are mixing up Mrsk with Bill Vincent?


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Chase, you must have missed the thread where I said that I was not religious and have to admit that I am agnostic at best. I began to have doubts when I was very young. I am lucky to come from people who value the investigation of ideas so I was able to indulge in questioning religion in all it's different aspects without anyone forcing their conclusions on me. That is not to say no one attempted it but no one compelled me to accept one faith. For a short while I played around with atheism but frankly I find it unpleasant and a philosophical dead end. I prefer the hope that agnosticism permits me.

I'll not bother you with more details but I will tell you about a couple of conclusions. The problem with religion is rarely the religion. The problem is with the men/women who use it rather than live it.

Men/women look outside themselves because somehow we all know we are not perfect and certainly our leaders, unfettered by laws, are not perfect. We need rules. The basis of those rules in Judeo-Christian culture are the Ten Commandments. Most other religions have similar rules. Even if you get rid of the first that commands that you have no other gods, you have the distillation of laws that civilized nations function under. A shorter and more easily remembered rule is "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you" but it is tricky. It says a lot more than what it seems on the surface.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

"To me, it's impossible not to believe in God, if you observe nature."

Did you go look at some of the scientific research? People who look at nature, human nature, in a scientific way? Not in your preconceived, biased manner.

I doubt it. You haven't had time to do that.

Off to a special dance workshop.

I love observing human nature. Especially when it comes wrapped up in tight blue jeans.

Hay


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

So, a 149 posts later, and after yet more pathetic whining, attempting to re-write history.

YogaLady's opening statement is truer than ever:

To me at the age of 64 with daughters and granddaughters. The choice is clear for me~~~~OBAMA

Word.


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RE: Is Religion a NoNo Topic Here?

Morals and character are set by the environment a person is raised in, and not by any god or religion.

If they WERE set by a god, there wouldn't BE any morals... because the christian god is all forgiving, and religious texts contain more contradiction, introduction to violence, hypocrisy, and are open to any and all interpretation.

No, morals are not set by any god or religion. They are shaped by your parents, your environment, and your conscience keeps them intact.

And, yes, a person never exposed to religion or gods... an atheist... can actually be more moral than a person who claims belief in a god or practices a religion.

This is continually proved out through the many stories of political and other figures who get caught with their pants down while married! They publicly proclaim themselves good christians, run on a platform of 'family values', and then are found to have extra-marital affairs or other skeletons falling out of closets!

Look at the catholic church, just as one small example of such duplicity! How can anyone claim moral high ground when such evil skeletons are hiding in closets?

I, too, think the phrase "I'm a Christian" is thrown around just a little too loosely.

Others who said it are right... our founding fathers and their families came to this land to get away from things like forced religious beliefs and persecution.

Chase said, "I no of no one on this board who has ever said that a person is not free to practice their religion. Of course they are and that is a fundamental freedom. What is not OK is in any way imposing your beliefs on another. Nor is it OK to use government and public facilities to promote religion...any religion."

Exactly so.

"Perhaps you may not understand mine and not mine, right and wrong, without your religion but I can assure you those values are instilled in us long before we understand religious concepts and have little if anything to do with religious belief."

Exactly so.

And that's the way we'd like to keep it. Our Constitution was well written. Religion and a belief in a god are personal. They are private unto the individual. They do not belong entrenched in our laws, or forcefully pushed into the public eye.

Personally, I've been down the road of religion and god, and none of it works for me. I don't require those beliefs or tenets to live a decent, moral, generous, happy life.

It's my opinion that it's impossible to believe in any god-like entity when one looks closely at science, physics, and other earth-bound theory and fact. And religions are, at this very moment, proving themselves to be exactly what they truly are. One has only to look at the larger picture of our Universe and the life we know within it.


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